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Ep 80: Ding Ding

Final Round Pinball Podcast·podcast_episode·1h 16m·analyzed·May 7, 2024
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claude-haiku-4-5-20251001 · $0.031

TL;DR

Jeff Rivera on podcast evolution, community tribalism, and the ABBA pinball machine.

Summary

Final Round Pinball Podcast Episode 80 features Jeff Rivera, host of The A Pinball Podcast (launched 2012), discussing how the pinball community and media landscape have evolved. The hosts critique podcast culture's obsession with game sales and tribalism, discuss the newly released Pinball Brothers ABBA machine, and explore competitive pinball and community growth in Salt Lake City.

Key Claims

  • The Pinball Podcast was launched in 2012 by Jeff Rivera

    high confidence · Jeff Rivera stated 'I think it was 2012' when asked when he started the podcast

  • Pinball game prices have increased significantly across all tiers

    high confidence · Jeff Rivera: 'it's a lot more expensive, like on all fronts, old and new. All the games are way more expensive.'

  • The pinball community is now much larger and more visible than in 2012

    high confidence · Jeff Rivera: 'there is so much more of a community now' and 'it's way more visible now'

  • Pinball Brothers plans to produce 300 Voyage edition and 500 Arrival edition ABBA machines

    medium confidence · Jeff Teolis stated: 'I think it's 300 of the Voyage edition and 500 of the Arrival edition' but acknowledged 'I know nothing about it. Again, I probably should look this up'

  • Salt Lake City's weekly pinball tournaments have grown from 10-12 participants to over 40

    high confidence · Jeff Rivera: 'We used to have our weekly tournaments, we'd have 10 to 12 people. Now it's not weird for over 40 to show up to the weeklies'

  • Podcast culture has become dominated by discussions about whether games will sell rather than whether they are fun to play

    high confidence · Marty Robbins: 'why podcasters are obsessed with whether a game will sell or not' and questioning 'why are podcasters obsessed about it?'

  • Jessica DiNardo is 'one of pinball's saints' despite being perceived negatively outside the pinball community

    high confidence · Jeff Rivera: 'she's one of pinball's saints, like for sure' and 'Within the world of pinball. Step outside, things get great. Oh, she's vile.'

  • ABBA won Eurovision 50 years ago on the release date of the ABBA pinball machine

    medium confidence · Marty Robbins: 'ABBA from a Swedish company on the 50th anniversary of them winning Eurovision'

Notable Quotes

  • “it's a lot more expensive, like on all fronts, old and new. All the games are way more expensive. But there is so much more of a community now.”

    Jeff Rivera @ ~8:00 — Captures the fundamental shift in pinball economics and community size since 2012

  • “Pick your truth, right? Well, I think people pick their truth that resonates more with them... Confirmation bias? Exactly.”

    Marty Robbins / Jeff Teolis @ ~25:00 — Commentary on how podcast proliferation mirrors broader media fragmentation and bias

  • “Did you have fun playing that game? Doesn't matter who it came from or what the theme is. Why are podcasters obsessed about it?”

    Marty Robbins @ ~26:00 — Core critique of podcast culture's shift away from gameplay focus to commercial viability

  • “she's one of pinball's saints, like for sure... Within the world of pinball. Step outside, things get great. Oh, she's vile.”

    Jeff Rivera @ ~14:00 — Humorous but candid assessment of Jessica DiNardo's reputation bifurcation

  • “It's one of these ones where it's all been revealed and people have shat all over it. But my absolute favorite one, someone said, oh, no Dancing Queen on the playfield. Oh, I'm out. It's got Dancing Queen on the playfield. Brilliant.”

    Marty Robbins @ ~45:00 — Exemplifies the disconnect between early critical reception and final ABBA machine design decisions

  • “We used to have our weekly tournaments, we'd have 10 to 12 people. Now it's not weird for over 40 to show up to the weeklies.”

    Jeff Rivera @ ~75:00 — Quantifies explosive growth in Salt Lake City's pinball community in recent years

  • “I like competing more than anything in pinball now. It's by far my favorite way to enjoy pinball is competition.”

    Jeff Rivera @ ~70:00 — Reflects evolution in veteran player motivation from collecting/casual play to competitive focus

  • “Back then, when it was either you or Nate, whoever it was that was talking about pinball, it was considered factual broadcasting... Whatever you said... that was the truth.”

Entities

Jeff RiverapersonJeff TeolispersonMarty RobbinspersonJessica DiNardopersonThe Pinball PodcastorganizationFinal Round Pinball PodcastorganizationPinball BrotherscompanyABBAgame

Signals

  • ?

    content_signal: Discussion of pinball podcast landscape shift from monopoly (2012: two main shows) to fragmented ecosystem with numerous competing shows, most with short lifespans (10-20 episodes average)

    high · Jeff Rivera and Marty Robbins extensively discuss how podcast proliferation mirrors media fragmentation; Jeff cites average show run of 10-20 episodes with few survivors like Eclectic Gamers

  • ?

    community_signal: Podcast culture increasingly driven by tribal allegiance and opinion validation rather than game quality assessment; some listeners 'hoping machines tank' to validate negative opinions

    high · Jeff Teolis: 'in order to feel validated, if you don't like it, you're going to hope it tanks' and 'tribalism...has seeped into society so deeply'

  • $

    market_signal: Significant price increases across all pinball machine tiers since 2012, affecting accessibility and collector/player behavior

    high · Jeff Rivera: 'it's a lot more expensive, like on all fronts, old and new. All the games are way more expensive.'

  • ?

    venue_signal: Salt Lake City pinball scene experiencing rapid growth: weekly tournaments expanded from 10-12 to 40+ participants; proliferation of barcades and home venues due to collector growth

    high · Jeff Rivera: 'Now it's not weird for over 40 to show up to the weeklies' and 'barcades popping up and there's just a lot more places to play leagues in people's homes'

  • ?

    competitive_signal: Veteran players like Jeff Rivera increasingly prefer competitive tournament play over casual collecting; evolution from exploration to optimization-focused gameplay

Transcript

groq_whisper · $0.228

0:00
The Pinball Network is online. Launching final round pinball podcast. It's player versus player and player versus machine. Welcome to the final round.
0:58
I'm assuming it's the 6th of April for everybody else, which means you'll probably listen to this in May or June at some stage, I would imagine. Because of your, I want to say, cantankerous, cranky, really bitch-fest system of you call me on my time, and Jeff, you have to record in the wee hours when you're super, super tired. It will also be April 7th because it's near midnight here. So quit your bitching. Okay, you say that. You say that, right, listener? Okay. What I'm just going to say is something that I don't know whether Jeff wants me to share this with everybody, but I'm going to say it anyway. Keeping in mind that I'm editing the show. Correct, correct. So he can take this out, right? Sure. But I've got to tell you, Jeff Teolas, of all the people that I know in the world, has got the most ridiculous sleeping patterns of anybody in the world. so you could be calling him it at three o'clock in the morning his time he'll be up it could be 3 15 he'll be asleep 3 45 he's back up but then 4 15 he's asleep only for a couple of minutes and then he's back up am i right jeff i would be lying if i said no and like i'm thinking of doug polka from pinberg we've probably our last three conversations were between one and three in the morning. Yeah.
2:22
That's all I'm saying. So you're going to go, oh boo hoo, look at me. You were probably up anyway is what I'm saying. I know, but I might be tired. Let's just put it this way. We've heard the feedback. People have said, you know, there's just something about the show. Can we get a nicer Jeff? And here, today, we are going to give you a nicer Jeff. It's not going to fucking be me. It's our special guest today. Who do we have? Well, it actually is and I mean this with all sincerity, Jeff Teolas, this is the nicest Jeff in pinball ever. Fact. This is Jeff Rivera. Do I say hi now? Yes. How are you doing, Jeff? I guess if you want to join in, sure. Yeah, I'm doing great. I'm just excited to be at the Pinball King of Australia and also Martin. Thank you. Yeah, nice, asshole. So I take back everything I just said. Wait a second. Jeff, you were disappointed that Marty and I weren't at TPF. You were there with gifts in hand. And what did you just call me? By your rightful title, the Pinball King of Australia. You're damn right. And you made a shirt for me that said that, that I would wear every single day.

Marty Robbins @ ~20:00 — Describes the epistemic shift from monopoly to fragmentation of pinball media authority

Salt Lake City Area Pinballers (SLAP)
organization
Pinball Profileorganization
Head to Head Pinballorganization
Eclectic Gamers Podcastorganization
The Beast in Buffaloevent
Pocketeer Billiardsvenue
TPF (The Pinball Fest)event
John Borgperson
Ninja Eclipsegame
Rob Frostperson
Coast to Coastorganization
Barrels of Funcompany

high · Jeff Rivera: 'I like competing more than anything in pinball now. It's by far my favorite way to enjoy pinball is competition...I'm starting to figure out my angles on games'

  • ?

    product_launch: ABBA pinball by Pinball Brothers using limited edition split strategy: 300 Voyage edition, 500 Arrival edition units planned

    medium · Jeff Teolis: 'I think it's 300 of the Voyage edition and 500 of the Arrival edition' (unconfirmed, speaker acknowledged lacking direct knowledge)

  • ?

    community_signal: Pinball community can bifurcate into exclusive clubs or actively inviting scenes; Salt Lake City exemplifies inclusive approach driving growth through active recruitment and tournament accessibility

    high · Jeff Rivera: 'The scene is very inviting...we have weekly tournaments in a brewery and there's always people hanging out drinking beers...we've picked up all kin[d of people]'

  • ~

    sentiment_shift: Pattern of games receiving initial harsh criticism that reverses after play testing (Ninja Eclipse example); community learning to withhold judgment until hands-on experience

    medium · Jeff Rivera on Ninja Eclipse: 'people were bagging on it, joking on it. But I'll tell you what, when I played it at PPF, I had a lot of fun'

  • ?

    design_philosophy: ABBA machine praised for simple, effective design philosophy emphasizing playability over innovation; compared favorably to John Borg's design approach

    medium · Marty Robbins: 'My first take on it was if someone had told me that that was designed by John Borg, I would have gone, yep, absolutely...It just looks like a Borg design'

  • ?

    licensing_signal: ABBA pinball represents rare example of established music artist securing pinball licensing; few disco-era artists have received this treatment; gap in Bee Gees and Donna Summer pinball machines noted

    medium · Marty Robbins: 'nobody else has done that kind of genre of music. The Bee Gees. No one's done the Bee Gees...Donna Summer'

  • ?

    event_signal: The Beast in Buffalo event by Jeff Teolis sold out nearly on day one, indicating strong local demand and successful community engagement

    medium · Jeff Teolis: 'Today is the day I put on sale tickets for an event I'm running called The Beast in Buffalo, New York at Pocketeer Billiards. And we almost sold out on day one.'

    • 3:37
    You idiot. I can't believe you would do that. I say, I can't believe you would do that. And then I'm thinking, yeah, that's probably exactly the kind of thing that you would do. I did. I made you a shirt, too. Thank you. Hopefully, mine just says Jeff Jellis as a cunt. I'm assuming that's close. It was not far off. Have you seen those ampersand shirts, you know, like the Beatles ones that say John and all over it? I made them. It was the essence of Martin is what I made. And so it had your four favorite things on it. Okay. Well, don't spoil it because I want to, at some stage, catch up. Can I just start by, for those people that don't know, right, I just want to say that my podcasting, my pinball podcasting journey started with Jeff. This is, oh, my God, do I have to say Jeff Rivera every time or Jeff Teolas? Nice Jeff. No, okay, the good Jeff. I call Teolas superior, Jeff, but I don't know. That's one person that does. so you were obviously the pinball podcast right the pinball podcast yeah there we go the the pinball podcast so from the genesis of people podcast i'm assuming a lot of people will know who you are what i'm keen to know from you is what's the world of pinball like compared to when you first started podcasting to now there you go on the spot go oh wow okay so it's a lot more expensive, like on all fronts, old and new. All the games are way more expensive. But there is so much more of a community now. And it's really cool to see. You can drop in pretty much any town when you're traveling. You can find people who are enthusiastic about it. I just boarded a flight a couple of days ago and I was wearing a pinball shirt and the guys at Southwest as I was getting on the plane said, nice pinball shirt, you know. So it's way more visible now. community's bigger there's a lot more room for like little industries to pop up within pinball and there's enough people in the community to support them so it was always pinball is dying way back then and now it's like thriving so it's a huge difference what year was it that you did start the podcast um i think it was 2012 fuck yeah preceded both of us yeah yeah it's been a Wow. Well, because of the Pinball Podcast, I mean, you're the person in the know, and it's the reason I wanted you on the show today, because right now I'd like you to list three things that are notorious about Jessica DiNardo. Go ahead. Just tell us the worst thing she's ever done.
    6:17
    Wow. Only three, you're saying. Only three. Oh, yeah. There's so many things I can pull from. I just want to know what I'm going to get the most traction with for our show. Like, this is crazy. Yeah. Yeah, we can search on the internet for all the illegal things she's done and all the criminal record stuff, some of the things that she got away with. Oh, there's so much. But honestly, she's one of pinball's saints, like for sure. What? Yeah. She is. Within the world of pinball. Step outside, things get great. Oh, she's vile. Vile outside of pinball. But in pinball, she's awesome. We said this on the podcast last year at TPF, particularly for me. every time, I mean I think of a lot of things when I think of TPF, but every time I think of TPF 2023 I always think of Jessica and how she just made my show so much better, just by being there and being helpful, she's just a lovely person Oh for sure, yeah, and this year she was in the Barrels of Fun booth the whole time and just totally in her element so it was nice, you guys missed out on a good show but there will be more Well, I'm excited for the barrels of fun thing because, all kidding aside, she is a great person and soft plunge and all that kind of fun stuff she does. The pinball podcast was very real, and you guys got into some really heartfelt topics that I thought, you know, you don't hear that a lot of times on pinball, and you guys weren't afraid to tackle that. But, yeah, Jess is a good person. We couldn't get her, so we appreciate you coming on the show.
    7:48
    Appreciate feels like a stretch. Desperate. There we go. No, I'm excited. This is actually my second time. The first one was entirely forgettable, so I'm sure, like, I think it was like four years ago. Oh, wait, wait, no, that was head to head. Never mind. Fuck, man. Pick the show. That's a dead show.
    8:11
    They still put out new episodes. It is. Okay, but also, so back then, back in the day, really, there were two podcasts to listen to. Obviously, for me, it was you and Coast to Coast.
    8:26
    How do you think podcasting has changed over the years now with regards to the pinball community? It's kind of like mirrored the streaming services out, but you can pick and choose kind of exactly how you like it. You can follow people who are a lot more techie. You can follow those who are almost more strictly modern pinball. You're able to pick and choose so much more.
    8:47
    You have pinball networks that bully us old-timers around. I'm just kidding. But it is really varied, which, again, speaks to the size of the community again. Back then, when we were getting started, if you put a show out, it automatically just did good numbers because that was it. They either listened to you or they didn't listen. This is weird, Marty, because before you came on, Jeff and I were talking, and he said he wishes he was like Thanos and just could snap and half the podcast would disappear. But now he's saying, oh, no, it's good. You get to pick and choose and everything. That happens naturally. I bet the average show run is about 10 to 20 episodes, and then they kind of roll over to a new... But there's some enduring shows that hang around a lot. Eclectic Gamers has been going for probably, what, seven or eight years now? They've been going a while. So there's been some survivors as well that have been putting out good content for a long amount of time. How long have you been doing this now, Marty? You predate Jeff a little bit, but... No, he doesn't. No, I don't. No, no, no, no. Jeff started Pinball Profile. I would say probably... I haven't heard of that one. What was that? Go fuck yourself. Yeah.
    9:56
    I reckon they probably predated Head to Head by maybe six months, maybe. Maybe a bit longer. I honestly don't remember. Seven years. Jeff and I have this thing. We record the episode, and that's it. I completely forget that I've even recorded an episode. So people will message me and go, oh, when you said the... And I'm like, did I?
    10:21
    And I think it's a sign of my age. I also think it's a sign of how much I care, which both things are related. Yeah, we have a segment where we pick three games and, like, hit each other's pains on it. I forget from one show to the next what games I pick, so I'm going to need to go back and catalog those because, just like you, like, once I've hit published, it's kind of out of my mind. Not that I don't enjoy doing it and put, like, a lot of effort and everything into it. It's just weird how life works and everything's either so immediate or it feels distant past, like, quickly. Okay, so I just want to go back to the podcasting and then we can probably move on to something else. But my take on it is similar to, I guess, media in general at the moment. Back then, when it was either you or Nate, whoever it was that was talking about pinball, it was considered factual broadcasting or factual media, right? Oh, we were serious reporters. But it didn't matter whether you were serious or not or the tone of your podcast or not. But whatever you said, because there was – I guess there wasn't so many alternatives, it was the truth. That was the truth and you just believed it because you had no other reason to think otherwise. Whereas now with so much information out there, so many podcasts, so many opinions, it's really hard to know what the truth is. And that's why I say it sort of reflects media in general at the moment. Yeah, pick your truth, right? Well, I think people pick their truth that resonates more with them, and that's, what's that called? Yeah. Confirmation bias? Exactly. That'd be a good name for a podcast. Oh. I have a podcasting question for you, and it's for both of you, really. It's the landscape of podcasting now in 2024 and the way it's been the last few years, because I don't understand it. You've maybe once or twice heard this podcast or Pinball Profile, and one thing you'll never ever hear me say is because i don't understand it and what i don't understand is why podcasters are obsessed with whether a game will sell or not i think of when i got into pinball do you know what it was it was was the game fun did i have fun playing it i didn't give a shit about the theme i didn't give a shit about the cost did i have fun playing the game Cost, obviously, would be a factor in buying the thing, but at the grassroots level, did I have fun playing that game? Doesn't matter who it came from or what the theme is. Why are podcasters obsessed about it? I'll give you the right answer, but let's let Marty give his thought first. No, no, no. I'm keen to hear yours. So I think it's two things. One is there are so many opinions out there. It's validation of opinion. So you're going to have your take on the game, and in order to feel validated, if you don't like it, you're going to hope it tanks, which sucks because you're hoping that a whole good group of generally good people fail in their endeavors. Or it's just tribalism. Like that is seeped into society so deeply and into pinball because pinball kind of mirrors society as well, where the tribalist nature of humanity just comes along with the opinion about a game, which is silly to me, but I understand how and why it happens. But those two things are so hard to fight, and I don't know. I don't know if it's our duty to push against that or not, but I personally don't care about sales numbers or any of that stuff. I don't know. If it's fun, I'll play it, and if it's fun, I'll talk about it. If it's not fun, I just kind of go whatever. Maybe someone else will enjoy it more than me and kind of move on from it, but that's my thought on it. Yeah, I agree with that. I think it's people trying to make themselves feel better about their circumstances. And I'll give an example without naming names, but there is a person in Australia that I know that can only ever have one pinball machine. That's all they can afford. They can only ever have one pinball machine at a time. So therefore, every time a pinball machine gets released, and I mean every time, they are one of the biggest dumpers of shit on all the manufacturers, everybody. because I think that they make themselves feel better about the fact that they are in a position where they can't get any more machines. So it's much better to say, well, that's fucking shit, so therefore I don't have to worry about it. That makes sense. I like Jeff's point about the tribes because I, fuck, I'm a lone wolf, man. There's no tribe I belong to, that's for sure. And that's probably why I don't understand why it's almost an obsession for some podcasters to just go in deep into it'll never sell, why did they make that why did they choose that theme why isn't this license blah blah blah blah i don't get it but and that's also so before i was back in pinball i was right into video games right so it's it's the console wars again and the big one really was i guess the first one was sega versus sony playstation versus saturn i think was was that and it was one of those ones where not everybody can afford both consoles. So you've got to pick one and you've got to defend your position because that's the only position that you could take. And those people in the middle, both are like, well, why does this matter? It only matters to those people that had to pick a side. And I remember saying this on the podcast so many years ago that this is one of the things that drives me nuts about the world at the moment is you have to pick a side. You're either red, you're blue. In Australia, you were Ford, you were Holden. You know what I mean? It was when we were talking about Texas because it's like you're either heartache or you're that other one. Hutchins. Yeah. Do you know what I mean? Like you were saying to me, no, you have to – can't you just like both? What's wrong with that? As long as you've got a girlfriend named Whataburger on the side, it's all good.
    16:12
    There's one right next to the hotel here, but I'm going to hold off this time. Oh, that's so good. Well, we'll get to where you're at in just a bit, but as we're talking about what podcasters think about games, a new game was released from Pinball Brothers. It's ABBA, and... Oh, it's not going to sell.
    16:32
    What a stupid theme. Oh, my God, it's 50 years old. Dad rock, blah, blah, blah. Fuck me. You know what? As I say with every game, every fucking game, I look forward to playing it. Then I will make an opinion. But I can say from the pictures I saw right now, I'm like, oh, it looks pretty cool. It looks fun. I enjoyed playing Alien and Queen, so I'll probably like what they're doing here. I won't give you an opinion until I play it. And when I do give you an opinion, it'll only be my opinion. It doesn't mean it's right or wrong. It's just, hey, again, right back to where we started. Did you have fun playing the thing? That's all I give a shit about. As our special guest, Jeff Rivera, what do you think about the release of ABBA? So I just barely kind of caught up with it because I've been traveling. I looked at the layout. I mean, it looks fairly simple, but again, some of the games that I most enjoy are. I would really need to get some time on it. Every game to me, I just kind of default expect it's going to be good until I'm proven otherwise. So I don't know. I do want to get some time on it. It didn't get me all excited or anything like that, but things rarely do. I guess I've become a little bit more skeptical and optimistic at the same time. It sounds really weird to say it, but I just don't think anything is going to blow me away or disappoint me based on how it looks. I do have to play it. But I hope it does well. I hope every machine does well. I don't know. It's kind of similar vibe and tone as to Ninja Eclipse. When that was announced, people were bagging on it, joking on it. But I'll tell you what, when I played it at PPF, I had a lot of fun. I heard it was pretty good. They did some changes. Yeah, that's what I heard too. Yeah. So, great. If it would be another success story, that's great. My first take on it was if someone had told me that that was designed by John Borg, I would have gone, yep, absolutely, accepted it. Because it just looks like a Borg design. And as we know, doing some deep soul-searching and some scientific research, I discovered that John Borg is my favorite designer, just because he happens to have the majority of games that I like. And he's a seasoned veteran. That is a factual statement. So it kind of just looked like a Borg game. So I know what you're saying. It's simple. there's not anything really that's doing anything that's massively innovative or different or new but i think what it does it does well that is what pinball brothers need it's just a game that plays well flips well there a theme now the theme that going to be you know it going to resonate with some people and other people are going to be very indifferent I will say it not a very male theme is what I say Really? Yeah. It's not blokey. Marty, you know how much I love, love, love, love disco. Mm-hmm. Okay. Well, here we go. What's your favorite episode? Number one.
    19:18
    The answer is Lay All Your Love On Me. Just aside there. No, I'm trying to – it's actually a song I don't know the name to. It's the one that Madonna used Hung Up On. Yeah, Gimme, Gimme, Gimme. Yeah, that's my favorite ABBA song. It's fantastic. The Visitors is my second favorite. Voulez-Vous is my third. Voulez-Vous would be second for me. Tropical Loveland is a really interesting one because it's a B-side. I think it's an album track, but people don't know about it. SOS. You haven't even mentioned Waterloo, Mamma Mia, Take a Chance. No, I don't like those. No. Okay, listen. Jeff, Marty. I feel like I'm a guest asking Jeff and Marty here. What the fuck? Anyway, normally on the show we jerk off. Today we got a Jeff off. I don't know if I'm liking this.
    20:02
    ABBA. Okay, you know I love disco. Like nobody else probably you know. But, again, I want Pinball Brothers to succeed. I'm looking forward to playing this game. I'm going to tell you a dark little secret. I don't like ABBA. That's fine. It's the one disco band. But I have a reason. Listen, I'm not saying I was a waterboard, tortured, or anything like that. But I was tortured as a child because as a young, I guess an older teen, I had a late-night shift. And I would sleep in the morning because I worked overnight.
    20:35
    And when I came home, the guys who were painting our house and listening to nothing but ABBA. So I'm trying to sleep, and all I can hear is ABBA. It's almost like I felt like I was being tortured. I know at Guantanamo, I think they force Nickelback on people or something like that to keep them awake. I'm not saying it's the same. It's in the ballpark.
    20:57
    No, I just feel like musical abuse is a sad thing. It's this trauma that you've got inside you, but we'll excise it. Don't worry about it. But that being said, Mamma Mia made me laugh. That's a great movie. And Levy Naiman was at the West End Theater in London, and he said, you've got to go check out that ABBA show, and I do want to see it. So I think I'll like it. Yeah. Look, you know, you and I, we have both bonded over our love of disco. And so I prefer ABBA's disco side. I don't prefer anything really before that. And you've got to understand, like, I believe Australia was the first country that really broke ABBA. They were just everywhere here. Like not Sweden? No, no, no, no, no. The story goes that the Swedish culture, they don't like talking about themselves. They're very humble people, like humble to a fault. Oh, I'd never make it there. So the fact that ABBA came out in all those big glitter costumes, they rejected ABBA because they said, no, you guys are trying too hard. You're beating your chest too much. It's too much. And it wasn't until they started getting success overseas that the Sweden country and the culture itself went, oh, they must be good if they're successful elsewhere. That's how it went. Sure. Okay. I like ABBA. Whatever. No, you got a point. Jeff, what do you think? I mean, Jeff knows this from North America, too. If the Swedes don't like their own stars getting too big and full of themselves, they must have fucking hated the Swedish chef.
    22:31
    They must have went nuts over that. You pompous asshole. That's just so stupid. He sat on that for like the last 30 seconds. No, no, no. You can just tell he was waiting for that opportunity.
    22:52
    You know the show too well, Jeff. So anyway, can I just say my favorite? Again, it's one of these ones where it's all been revealed and people have shat all over it. But my absolute favorite one, someone said, oh, no Dancing Queen on the playfield. Oh, I'm out. It's got Dancing Queen on the playfield. Brilliant. Fucking idiots. Come on. I like the helicopter toy. Yeah. You know, when I saw the teaser of the helicopter tour, I thought, oh, they're making a match. But it wasn't that. Yeah. Well, again, people were sort of like just incredulous. They're like, oh, there's no way it could be ABBA. What a terrible theme. There's no way it's ABBA. It's ABBA from a Swedish company on the 50th anniversary of them winning Eurovision. So. I also think it's great. Like, nobody else has done that kind of genre of music. The Bee Gees. No one's done the Bee Gees. No one's done. Oh, God bless her. Donna Summer. I think Apple will do very, very well. They only want to sell 800 of them. Oh, really? I know nothing about it. Again, I probably should look this up, but I think it's 300 of the Voyage edition and 500 of the Arrival edition. They'll sell it. Oh, I think they will too, and I hope they do. Sorry, people that want to just wish failure upon these people. Jeff.
    24:10
    Sorry. Thank you, Peter. You know what would be crazy is if both you and I, Jeff, spoke in the third person. Things would get real wild there. I'm good. No, I can behave myself. Although somebody, you know, today I had some, this is, you know, speaking in third person. Today is the day I put on sale tickets for an event I'm running called The Beast in Buffalo, New York at Pocketeer Billiards. And we almost sold out on day one. And I had a guy who listened to the show. I know he's listening right now. Marty, you know him too. His name's Rob Frost. He always chirps and calls us this and that. And I said, hey, Big Mouth, why aren't you coming? And he said, okay, I'll come. And he kept going on. He's like, oh, but, you know, I suck at pinball. It's really deflating. I just said, sorry, man, can't relate.
    24:55
    And he's like, you fucker. And I'm like, I'm telling you, man, I like royalty. I like red carpet shit when I go to different countries because of being the best in Australia, as Jeff has pointed out. Fucking even in England. Do you realize at one point in England last fall, just for one day only, one day only, I was the greatest player in England. Like, it's not only Australia. It's not only Canada. Obviously, some dominant times in the U.S., but even England. Like, fuck, multi-nations. It's hard, Pat. It doesn't work that way. Both of you, it does not work that way. You know, you've got a T-shirt. That's fine. It doesn't work that way. You don't just win one race, and all of a sudden, you're the best in the world. If it's Olympics, you do. Yeah, thank you. In boxing, if you were the heavyweight champion, there was a time when they called you the greatest athlete in the world. If you win the 100-meter dash at the Olympics, Jeff, they say you're the fastest man in the world. So for that one day, I was the greatest fucking pinball player in England. Sorry, Neil McRae. Sorry, all my bloke friends there. But, dudes, it was me. Me. So name all these friends in the U.K. that you have. Andrew Foster, Craig Pullen, Peter Blakemore. The list goes on and on. They all bowed to me that day. I mean... The list that you're watching on IFPA, yep, goes forever. I'm just saying, I was there, the queen had passed away, they were looking for a new king, they were fitting me for a crown. That's all I'm going to say.
    26:18
    Oh, my God. Eat it, Marty. The stats speak for themselves. Anyway... Results speak, yeah. Are you playing much pinball? Are you doing any competitive stuff, Jeff? What's your scene like?
    26:29
    So I just missed the cut at TPF for classics, thanks. That's a hard one to make, though. So I don't want to bog you down with stories, but just burning four entries out of ten on Mars Trek and then not having it factor into my final four scores, that I did. Anyway, we have leagues and stuff going on in the Salt Lake area that I played in a pinball league. Slap? The Salt Lake area pinballers, yeah. This was a different league, actually. We're up to multiple leagues now. But I just have a crazy work schedule this spring, so I probably won't get back into anything like that until maybe fall again. But people are hungry. They do want me to show up and play. But I just haven't been able to lately. I like competing more than anything in pinball now. It's by far my favorite way to enjoy pinball is competition. Then how do we get Marty to do it? Because I feel the same way. It's just a different sort. I don't know.
    27:26
    It hasn't always been that way for you. You haven't always been into tournament play? I mean, I've always enjoyed it, but lately, I think it's because I've experienced so much of it. I've played almost everything that's out there. Now I just want to work on specific skills and just be better overall, and that's just the ultimate way to test that stuff out and your progress. So, yeah, I don't know. I wish I could compete a whole lot more than I do. But, yeah, I think early on it was just about playing everything. Now it's more about competing. So do you play games differently now? because I always get grief from people who don't play in tournaments. Like, oh, you're always looking for scoring exploits, and you're not playing the whole play field, and you're not doing whatever the story mode is or kind of going deep into games, and they're right. I'm looking for quick points, how I can stack a mode with a multiball and things like that. Are you that way too now? A little bit. If it's a newer game, I like to kind of exhaust it, see all its modes and really poke around in it. But, yeah, I am starting to figure out my angles on games now of what I would do in a tournament setting. I don't always follow, like, hop onto, like, pin tips and see the top two or three things you're supposed to do. I'll check them out for reference. I am kind of transitioning to what is the safest way for me to stack up points personally, and I'm starting to play games that way, optimizing what's repeatable, what's reliable, and where I know I don't have to gamble as much. So I am starting to use just smaller areas of the play field or specific shot routines way more than I used to. Where are you located and what's the scene like around you? Yes, like you don't know. In Salt Lake City?
    29:07
    It's kind of blown up. We are getting so big. We used to have our weekly tournaments, we'd have 10 to 12 people. Now it's not weird for over 40 to show up to the weeklies. there's a lot more like the barcades popping up and there's just a lot more places to play leagues in people's homes because the collector scene has grown so much that we can just kind of do a week in one person's home another week in the next so i don't know salt lake city is doing pretty well as far as bringing new players in but also new collectors and new new venues so it's been nice it's cool because it's also really upping the variety of games like not everything's tournament anymore. So it's been fun. I've enjoyed it. I just haven't had the time to get out. Well, I just remember when I was there for the first time, and I think I met you the first time I was there. It was a healthy group of people, but I think it was the only group of pinball people. Yeah, that core group is still around, but it's so much bigger now. I think that was pretty much like the hardcore gathering of pinball dudes that came and hung out with you, but what would be considered the core group of players now is 10 times that size. Wow. Well, that's great. But I'm just trying to work out, what is it that caused that explosion to happen?
    30:25
    I don't know exactly. We do have a few people in the Salt Lake Area Pinballers group that are very good about just inviting. The scene is very inviting. I've kind of seen that in pinball. You can kind of go two ways with it. One, it can be kind of like a pretty closed-in club, and that's not super common. we have weekly tournaments in a brewery and there's always people hanging out drinking beers and also there's a big group of 40 of us playing well people will ask questions like what's going on here and instead of just saying ah pinball tournament and then turning back to machines they say oh this is our weekly tournament if you want to play in it here's how you get registered and we've picked up all kinds of people just doing stuff like that um and then just inviting them to the tournaments for people's homes where they can come and someone has a collection of 20 machines and you know they hang out for the night and it's just being welcoming is has grown it so much and during covid i think it just grew a lot people were looking for things to do that they could do in their house and a lot of people had pinball machines so i don't know i don't know if that was unique to us but it seemed like them all grew during covid where it felt like it probably should have shrank but did not i assume the leagues are a mix of casual people and some people that are competitive you mentioned you're at tpf you're playing in a really big tournament there. Certainly the Wizards tournament was part of the Stern Pro Circuit, but you played in their also huge Classics tournament, which is very difficult. The settings are shocking to people who go to tournaments for the first time, compared to maybe a bar they're used to or home location where maybe extra balls are on, settings are tough, tilts aren't as tight, slings aren't as tight. Are you, now that you're re-into competitive, able to make that adjustment a lot easier than maybe some of the people that are experiencing tournaments for the first time? Oh yeah, I actually prefer the tougher setup games. I just started to play that way. I expect tight tilts, I expect open out lanes, thicker post rubbers on ramp entrances, things like that. So I play that way and I tend to, I rarely miss cuts on tournaments. I don't generally threaten to win the things, but I usually will get in and I'll play day two. But when I will go play at more casual minded tournaments with loose tilts and stuff like that, my mind doesn't switch well going backwards to where I can abuse a loose tilt or the ramp might be super repeatable or things like that. And so I do better on the tighter stuff for sure. Sometimes you get away with murder and especially in the pump and dumps, if they have made a game too easy, they have to live with it. And I'll give you an example. It was not last year, but the year before, maybe in the Classics Tournament, and those that were there will remember it. It was at Expo, and Alien Star was the game, which is a fun, fun game. I know it's only one shot, but it's fun. Zero tilt-bob in it. I'm not exaggerating when we said you could move the game easily five feet. Like, if you drain down the center, that's on you, because there's no way it should ever go down the center when you can move the machine that much. So your arms were tired after it, But the problem actually with doing that is then going to play another game after it and you just have that same kind of reaction from just maneuvering this machine all over and everything tilts. I prefer a tight tilt. I just do. So what's next for you? I know you're traveling right now. In fact, I don't even know if this is a thing for you, Marty, because here in North America, for Jeff, for myself, this coming Monday, and by the time this airs, it'll already happen, and we're probably both blind because of it, the eclipse is happening. Is that even a thing for you in Australia? Is that big news there? Different day, different time? What is it, Marty? What do you mean an eclipse is happening? Like a sun eclipse or moon eclipse? Or is that the name of like a baseball team or something? Jeff, give them the info. Give them the deets. So the eclipse is, yeah, it's happening Monday. It crosses kind of the southwest U.S. up through the eastern, northeastern U.S., kind of crosses the country. So solar eclipse, Marty. You know, the sun goes behind the moon, moon in front of the sun, however you want to think about it. But I have flown down to Texas to catch that, and it's cloudy and rainy. So I'm probably going to miss out on it, but I'm going to give it a shot. I'm excited, though. I caught the one in 2017. It was great. Do you have your glasses? I do, and I have a big 600-millimeter lens for my camera with some solar films. I'm trying to take pictures of the thing, but I don't know if it's going to happen. Yeah, it's a big deal over here, Marty. Is it really?
    34:57
    I'll give you some other examples. Major League Baseball games have postponed day games into nighttime for fear of, honestly, people going blind looking into the sun, looking into the eclipse. Niagara Falls, which is a big, big tourist area here on the Canadian-U.S. border, they're doing all kinds of weird precautions, too. Schools have been canceled in a lot of places, too, because they don't want the kids in school that day. Do you ever want to see one? No. Have you seen a total? You're going to go get in Path of Totality, right? I'm going to what? You're going to go get in the Path and try and see this, right? I'm driving during the eclipse. I know I'm on my way to Toronto that day to catch the Blue Jays home opener, and it happens right at that time. I can't remember where the sun is at the time. I'll wear my glasses to be safe. but I'm this is without exaggeration I don't think there is a more amazing thing you can witness with your eyes than a total solar eclipse I I couldn't believe what it was like when I saw one they're coming to Australia in a few years parties field gear shot but there's it's impossible to recreate uh on film um like if they video it just doesn't look the same it it's something that like kind of rocks your core so it's worth getting to it's way better than baseball even the blue jays oh and our Time is done. Oh, look at that. But no, like if you, this is speaking to me. Oh, this will go live after everyone. Everyone will hear this after the fact. So I hope you got out and saw it because it was the coolest thing you've ever seen. Just as an FYI, go to Google and type in Total Eclipse. See what happens. Bonnie Raitt. This is for everybody. No, it was, that was. Bonnie Raitt, Total Eclipse of the Heart. No, it wasn't Bonnie Raitt at all. And if you want money on it right now, let's go. What, the song? Yeah, it wasn't Bonnie Raitt. I can tell you, Total Eclipse of the Heart was, actually, I'll Google it right now. Bonnie Raitt. No. You're absolutely wrong. Oh, no, fuck Bonnie. Oh, Bonnie Tyler. Fuck. Bonnie Tyler. Fuck. Wrong Bonnie. But Google's just doing one of its cute little things. If you type in, I just typed in Total Eclipse and it does this funny thing. So, anyway. We obviously know that the eclipse is happening. I saw a Total Eclipse like this when I was very young. I think I might have been in third grade. And it was one of those ones where you could only see it as a reflection. It was almost like you made this cardboard box type thing that would reflect this. I don't know what I'm talking about, but does that sound right? Yeah, you're not supposed to look at it directly. Yeah. So you created this box of some kind where it would actually project what it looked like into the box. We're Australians. We do things a little bit odd. Marty, I did that when I was in public school. I remember that as well. Okay, cool. Thank you. Um, it's one of those things where, you know, they'll report it on the news that an eclipse is happening, but they'll probably do it the night that it's happening. It's not something that we would travel to. You're making fun of Jeff. I not making fun of Jeff at all No I not You got one coming up Don worry about it Stay there Be afraid of the outside world It come to you eventually No I genuinely not at all I'm just wanting to understand the culture behind it that makes it a big thing that makes people travel. And what makes you get on a shitty Southwest flight to do so? Go on.
    38:19
    I'm not joking. It's the coolest thing you can see with your eyes. It's not like a partial eclipse. Those are part of the sun's block or whatever. during the total, like totality, you've got to be right in the path. You can't be 99%. That doesn't matter. But if you're at 100%, when it goes off, it's insane. People lose their minds. They start running in circles, yelling, laughing, hugging random strangers, just losing it. It makes sense why ancient civilizations thought it was holy or some sign of the gods or something. It's absolutely crazy. You feel it to your core. It's insane. It is really insane. I get that and I would therefore say the comparison really is when people travel all the way to Iceland to see the Northern Lights, right? If you're saying that this is something that is spectacular to look at, then yeah, sure I can understand that people travel because people travel to see the Northern Lights and there's millions of people who travel this year You really think it's the best thing, eh Jeff? Yeah, absolutely So when is your, after this, when do you travel to Wicker Man and Easter Island and go twister hunting. When does that happen? I mean, they're all eventualers.
    39:30
    I'm already looking like, hey, maybe I can hit the next eclipse in northern Spain. That's in like a couple of years. How many UFOs have you sighted in your career? I'm just curious.
    39:40
    There's one, but I don't like to talk about it. Does it rhyme with manal mob? No, I wasn't so lucky. I asked, but they said no. We're good. We got the data we need. I'm kidding you. You know what? I kid you because I'm doing the same thing as you. I'm watching it. Of course I'm going to see this. I got my glasses. Yeah, I mean, I didn't have to get on a fucking Southwest flight, I'll tell you that. But that's fine. Maybe Utah just doesn't have it, and Texas is probably, well, nothing wrong with going to Texas. And I hope it's not cloudy for you. I hope it's a lot of fun. And you know what, Jeff, as we said off the top of the show, Marty and I didn't have the greatest couple of weeks, but you are a guy that has always cheered us up in emails, in conversation. And don't be surprised if I ask you to come back on the show because we really didn't get into much. But I do enjoy having you. No, seriously. No, I know. But also, we were genuinely disappointed. We were disappointed that we didn't get to go to TPF, but gutted when we found out that you had turned up with these shirts for us. I felt really bad, first of all. But second of all, I just felt I'd missed something because it's always good to catch up. Yeah, I was disappointed for a minute when I found out. A lot of people didn't make it this year, whether it was weather or just circumstance. Or saving their money for eclipse flights, things like that. Exactly. And I'm glad you understand. But no, it would have been nice to see you guys. But it was fine. I sadly packed the shirts away and I'll get them to you guys some other method. For sure. Jeff, enjoy the eclipse and don't be a stranger because we want you back on here you're a good shit, you always have been and we're both big fans of the Pinball Podcast and things you do, so thanks very much buddy you're welcome, thank you guys and I also look forward to seeing you on July 22nd, 2028 it's in the plans, I know exactly what you're talking about the eclipse or what are we talking about? there's the eclipse in Australia Isn't that crazy they can predict it that far away? I mean, just, wow. Yeah. It lasts three minutes and 44 seconds. That's longer than most things I do. Well, way longer. Yeah, exactly. Last time. Takes a while to get the pants off.
    42:04
    It's a big belt. Anyway, Jeff, take care, buddy. All right. Thanks, guys. Marty, it's time for that age-old question. Why do we have Jeff on? I don't mean me. So, I don't know. I don't know whether this is going to sound too overstated, but for me personally, Jeff Rivera is pinball royalty. I've just got to tell you, because when I was just getting into pinball and trying to absorb as much information as possible, he was one of the go-tos, right? So, yeah, for me, it's Jeff Rivera. Oh, my God, it's him, the person. That guy. Very, very nice. I did enjoy the podcast. I enjoy... I don't get to see him that often, quite honestly, and certainly it's been a while, but I guess I got to go checking out Eclipses and do these weird little treks if I want to hang with the man, but... Yeah, for sure. I love that he's getting into competitive stuff, and you know, I was thinking, because there are people that are listening here, we call them noobs, that play pinball but don't really do competitive. and maybe they want to test their foot into it. And I was thinking, as I said earlier, for me, pinball was just about having fun, have fun. But, of course, doing well sometimes is more fun. So how did I or others get better? And, you know, I know I watch some videos. There's this guy you haven't heard of. His name is Keith Elwin. He made these videos of how to do some pinball tricks, if you will, flipper skills. and those are very beneficial. Like the first time you realize you actually don't have to flip and you can trap up the ball by a little bit of a dead flip or a dead bounce or whatever, that's pretty exciting when you have that trust in that because that's a game changer and there are many like that. Yeah, without a doubt. Look, I mean, the age-old question, do you get into competitive pinball or do you not? And I – it's a really interesting conundrum to talk about because, as you know, I'm not into competitive pinball. I still enjoy talking about it and I watch it. I just don't want to be in it. And, you know, there are people that we talk about where we say – we ask them, you know, do you have fun? Like even when we're talking to Jermaine, it's like, do you have fun playing pinball? And the competitive people sort of say they don't necessarily have fun playing the pinball machine itself, but they have fun competing or being in a tournament. So I can understand why some people would say to themselves, I don't want to be that. I want to always enjoy the pinball machine and I don't want it to change who I am, which I get. So I've always played a lot of sports, you know, baseball for many, many years. And I actually played golf quite a bit. I remember being in my 20s thinking, I can hardly wait till I retire. I'm going to golf every single day. And I can tell you, I haven't swung a club in about four years, which makes no sense. But the reason I kind of stopped, and I want to get back into it, is around 40 years old, I started wearing glasses. And when I put on glasses, I wasn't hitting the golf ball very well anymore. My eyes would change a little bit. Even though you're supposed to keep your head still, for whatever reason, and probably the progressiveness of the glasses, the ball would move and I'd be like, oh, God, I'm slicing here, I'm hooking here, blah, blah, blah. And so it was bothering me because I didn't know how to fix that. I didn't know, okay, well, here's what you're doing wrong. You're opening your face, this, that, and other things. I didn't know how to fix it. In baseball, I always knew how to fix if I was grounding out or if I was swinging late, all these other things. There were things I could naturally fix. With golf, I could never do it. So as we relate to pinball, everybody can get better if that's something they care about. And I didn't play golf anymore because it wasn't fun because I was frustrated with myself. But pinball still can be fun and it can be more fun if you want it to be and learn some different skills. I think it is fun learning something new, and whether it's these dead bounces, whether it's learning what the rules are and where the points are, next-level stuff, learning how to react, what are the dangerous shots, all these kind of things that competitive players think of, it is fun for me competing. It's draining at times because of some of the formats of tournaments and the length of them, but I still have fun. Cool. Fuck you. Cool. No, no, no. That's good. That's actually a very good point that you make, right? So you've been able to find the balance. And this is sort of what I'm trying to say to people, that if you are a naturally competitive person and competition is everything and you don't want to change, I wouldn't go into competitive pinball because it'll just create a monster. But if you get into competitive pinball, you will become a better pinball player. And as a result, you'll be able to see more of the games that you've got, that you play because you'll be able to get through it more, if that makes sense. So I think there is this way that you can do both, but if you find yourself that all you're ever focused on is the competitive side of things, then it's not going to be for everyone. No, not everyone can win all the time. And I remember it was Ray Day and some other players, Escher, and I think Jordan Treadway once said it too. In fact, your great Australian player there. Going to tournaments sometimes is high pressure because they are expected to win every single time. So there is more room for disappointment than success for these elite players. And it can be draining. Well, yeah, it can be to have to live up to the expectations all the time. And that was one of the things that started frustrating me. Not that I would ever say that I was like the best player. You know I would never say that. But sometimes I felt that there was a target on my back. And I remember many times I would literally walk into a tournament and people would roll their eyes and go, oh, well, I'm not going to win. It's like, hang on.
    48:24
    Why make me feel shit about turning up to a pinball tournament? And that's honestly what was happening. I get that too. Not as often, but it happens once in a while, certainly more locally than anywhere else. And, yeah, it's a bit of a bummer too. but I don't know, when I was the other person on the other end, I felt good when, holy cow, I'm not expected to win, and I beat the top player. Yeah. Again, have fun. It's all about having fun. But what brings me to this point is, okay, you're playing at home right now. Maybe you're a competitive player. Maybe you're not. Maybe you want to get better. Maybe you just want to have fun. One thing that we see, especially with new modern games, and this is a topic I want to talk to you about, Marty, is I'm having a very difficult time finding a new game, like a brand new theme, not a re-theme or things like that, that doesn't have what I call a bozo multi-ball. I'm not knocking the multi-ball. I'm just saying this multi-ball is probably within six shots of starting it, some as quickly as three. and the reason I bring it up and Jeff even mentioned it too was a lot of the modern tournaments are really, really lasting a long time. There was a great article about it too. We talked to Jermaine a little bit about it but games are playing a lot longer to get your money's worth, I guess, to give that fun, that excitement. I remember when it was Jurassic Park and I remember hearing Elwin say about that easy T-Rex multiball, which I think was three shots away. I think if you hit the Jeep three times and went off the ramp, there you are. Multiball. Yep. T-Rex multiball. It's not worth a lot of points, but it's that little dead pull. Three shots. There you go. Not many. Yeah, you're right. So that happens a lot in pinball, and I get it. I just wish it wasn't the case because I think of some of the great games, there's not an easy multiball on, I don't know, The Walking Dead. You still have to hit the well walker probably, what, eight times? Yep. Prisons a lot. Correct. But that's, I mean, that's not necessarily a recent title. I know it's recent-ish, but... I'm having a difficult time finding a game in the last five years. All You Stern, for example, that didn't have a... Led Zeppelin. Nope, because three shots up the left ramp would give you the Zeppelin multiball. Yeah, yeah. But it's got to be three easy shots. No, the point is it's three shots. It's not, it's, yeah, whatever. But name a game in the last five years, and the Stern people will call me, and I'm sure there are games. I just can't think of it off the top of my head as we were recording this podcast, that what is a game in the last five years that didn't have a multiball available within six shots? And someone's going to send me one like, oh, if you do this in seven. My point is... You know, we're saying that the chump multiball, the one that's really easy to get to, But, again, this is what we talked about when we were talking about the difficulty of games. And we're saying that they're making these things easier. They're giving us more ball sales. They're giving us more multi-balls because these are home users. And I've said this before, and I know I can be really quite facetious, especially towards you, Jeff, but I just wanted to give you a preamble that says I'm absolutely not when I say this. But you are top 100 pinball player in the world, right? you're in the top 100. So you can't help but have that that is your viewpoint. That is where you see the world. Most people are not in the top 100. Most people are not in the top 500. Most people are not in the top 10,000. So those people that are not the top players, and they're not top players, they're not the most skilled players. How do they get the same amount of enjoyment out of a game than somebody that can see a wizard mode? You've got to give them these multi-balls. you've got to i don't begrudge them but and you're a programmer yourself so you you know and they've had the data to to speak of that and if i can't remember a game that hasn't had that there must be a reason for that and and you've given a good example yeah it's exactly that that's what we talked about um it was a topic that you brought up a few episodes ago where you're saying have they made games too easy and i think that they have however what they have always had is the ability for you to go into the menu and make games either easier or harder. So you could actually go in and change those easy multiballs to make them much harder. No, and thank goodness for that because that's the case at tournaments. And I was saying to Jeff, some people that are experiencing their first tournament, especially a big scale tournament like a TPF or any Stern Pro Circuit, or there are large tournaments everywhere that are even outside the Stern Pro Circuit. They make games a little tough. Now, the funny thing about TPF is, oops, they might not have made them tough. Did you see the queues in the main event? I heard they had long queues. 17 deep. I had somebody there sent me a screenshot. I'm not even joking. 17 deep. It's the title of your sex tape.
    53:41
    They went off-site to a restaurant, came back, and still were third in queue. Wow. And a sit-down restaurant, not even takeout. Like, just wow. No, I know. And I think I told you when I had the last Melbourne Silver Bowl Championship, when we had, I think it was Turbinator 3 in tournament, I just didn't have enough time before the tournament started to absolutely toughen that up. So every other game would have four people in the queue and it would be a 15-minute wait, maybe. This one had over an hour wait. Yeah. So it was a pump and up and you couldn't change it. Correct. I couldn't change it until the finals. I just ran out of time. I've got this beast tournament coming up August 1st to 4th at Pocketeer in Buffalo. I'm really excited. We're expanding to 140 people. We almost sold out day one. Wow, that would have been cool. Yeah. But you'll still sell out. So just, you know, you don't have to sell out on the day for it to be successful. Day one last year, we had 65. So to be almost 140. Oh, wow. Yeah. Oh, no. So that made me feel good. Like, oh, people had a good time last year and all that stuff. That's awesome. And we gave away $30,000 in cash. And I've got surprises. people don't even know that are happening there. So it's going to be bigger or better. But pump and dump in the main, in the women's, in the classics. And I think, much to the chagrin of players who have to be the ones who are pumping and dumping, if you're going to err on the side of making it harder or easier, you should make it harder. Because you don't want the long queue. Nothing is more frustrating than long queues. and listen, I know our good friends, Jim Belsito and Carl D'Angelo, Jay Collins and the wonderful people that run InDisc. When you get to Saturday at InDisc, all the people are done their classics, the women's tournament is done, so all anyone can do is play the main event. These wonderful organizers have several machines. I think there were 18 in the main bank. You can't ask for more than that. It covered the whole area. Could they get maybe one or two in more? yeah, but still, you're huge at 18. And people were saying, oh, the queues got long on Saturday. I'm like, yeah, no shit, because everything else is done. It's going to happen everywhere. It's going to happen at the Beast. It's going to happen everywhere. So they were great throughout the tournament, but at crunch time, at the end, that's what happens. So you've got to make them tough. Yep, agreed. But not too tough. I don't care.
    56:10
    I mean, I don't want you pressing a flipper and it tilting. That's too tough. Well, can I just go on to that topic that Jeff also brought up as well about tilts? So again, it's one of these things where if you want to become a better pinball player at home, set your tilts up very tough, really tough. So you can do subtle nudging because what I can tell you, he made that point. He's like he finds it difficult to go from not being able to nudge to being able to absolutely nudge. I would much rather that than being in a world where I can move a machine all the time and all of a sudden I'm in a tournament where I can barely breathe on it. Oh, you have to make them tougher at home. The great players do that. Kaylee George does it. Jared August does it. Outposts not only rubbers, but outposts are removed. Slings tilts are definitely tight, but the actual the thing to make them game really tough is actually the slings the slings above the flippers Make those tight and where the ball just goes side to side because side to side is always trouble Yeah, correct. And then you're going to see yourself become a great player. My hardest game here at my place is rush. Tight, tight, tight. I don't think I've ever had a game where I haven't had double danger on certainly every game, but maybe even every ball, if not tilt. And it beats the hell out of me. But then I go play in a tournament and I'm like, oh, this is nothing compared to what I got at home. You know, it's that muscle memory thing. I would rather walk up to a machine and say, oh, this is easier than, oh, my God, this is harder. How do I adjust? Yeah, correct. That is exactly right. Yeah. So, okay. The ball-to-balls serve a purpose. Okay. You help me. They serve a purpose. This is, okay. We've sort of tried to talk about this and I know we're not going to change the world. We aren't going to change the world. You and I, it doesn't matter how awesome you and I and how much of this high horse that we're on. And we are, to be fair, you and I are both often on a high horse. And rightly so, because we are both fucking awesome. Okay? But we're not saying everyone else sucks. It's just more we're really, really, really good.
    58:16
    Ridiculously good looking. The other ones are fine. Yeah. So it just comes back down to this whole, you can have an opinion and also respect another opinion that's different to yours.
    58:31
    So... Yes. This is the point I'm making. There is no absolutes here. and we should all be living in a centrist world where we get new pieces of information that sway us in a different direction as opposed to always forming a particular direction and then having to prove otherwise. And I'll give you an example if I can, Jeff. This will be very topical. Watch this segue. Let's talk about the young ones. For fuck's sakes, here we go. Oh my God. So we mentioned that last episode about young ones And I think of anything that we have ever spoken about, this is the most amount of feedback we have ever received. Off the charts. And Jeff was like, oh, no, I don't find it funny. Oh, it's terrible. Oh, it's boring. It's really fun. I don't find it funny. And then he's like, he's saying to me, you know, give me an episode where it's funny. Prove that it's funny. It's like, hang on. It's not my job to try and change your opinion. I could just give you information and you can form your opinion. So, like a pinball machine, I don't want to give an opinion until I watch the show. So, when we mentioned it last episode, I said I had never heard of it. And I guess it was on MTV in the early 80s. It's an early 80s British show. It's about four roommates who are down on their luck, but they come from four complete different lifestyles. There's a hippie, there's a punk rocker, there's kind of an older gentleman. And then, I don't know what you would call... Anarchist. Rick's character. Yep. So I watched the first episode. I saw it as, this is me again. I saw it as, this is college humor. I'm not saying it's beneath me. It serves a point in the place. It was chaotic. I tried. I wasn't sitting there all grumpy faced. I wanted to laugh, didn't laugh once, just didn't get it. Not my thing. That's fine. But the thing that bothered me is conversely, whereas this person is a god to me and defends many people. Ricky Gervais, I remember him doing the Wonderful Extras series. And in season two, he gets his own TV show and the BBC changes what he wants to do. He wanted to make The Office and they changed it to silly wigs and sunglasses and funny glasses. And the next thing you know, Chris Martin's walking on from Coldplay playing a song in an office. and you're like, well, how the hell is this possible? And I watched that and I'm like, that's fucking Young Ones. That's where Marty saw Motorhead play in the band. So it'd be like me saying to you, I find Ricky Gervais excruciatingly unfunny. Can you now show me something that's going to change my mind? Yeah. His last Armageddon special is pretty awesome. No, it's terrible. Are you serious? Yeah, I'm funny. Are you just doing this to piss me off? No, no, no. I find it. I find Ricky Gervais excruciatingly unfunny. So does that mean that he is unfunny? He's unfunny to you. That's right. Does that mean that The Young Ones is boring and not fun? No, but I also said I didn't get it. No, that's right. But it's not what you said to a lot of people that wrote in. You literally replied back and saying, I don't fucking get it. It's boring. It's stupid. And you fucking suck for liking it. That's pretty much what you said to them. I only said that to Franchi.
    61:55
    I think I told him to fuck off. But what was... I guess what was... The funny thing is I told him to fuck off and, oh, by the way, thank you for drawing the Beast poster. It was a compliment there. Yeah, yeah. The point is that all of this is, everybody, it's okay for us to be different. It's... As long as you're not hurting people, you know? Sure, I agree. But it's okay for us to have a different... It's okay for an ABBA pinball machine to be released and it not be for you. It's actually okay. It doesn't mean you then have to try and personally insult anybody that's involved in the making of that machine just to make you feel better. That's what's shitty. That's the stuff that's shitty. There you go. I've said it. Well, I think of that definitely with ABBA. I think of that with Berrio's Barbecue. I think of that with Ninja, the Turner game. Is it called Ninja Eclipse? Is it an eclipse? Ninja Eclipse, yeah. It looks great. But again, play them. And if you like them, great. If you don't, okay, you've played it. No one's going to say you're right or wrong. But just the shooting it down before you first of all play it and shoot. Man, I just don't fucking get it. That game, when I hear people say it, that game will never sell. Yeah, but this is the whole thing. People think that you need to sell 5,000 of them to be successful. I said before, Pinball Brothers are only making 800 of these games. They only need to sell 800. That's fine. And also, if they don't sell them, what's it to you? What's it to you, mate? No shit. Yeah, that I don't get. I mean, you know, maybe on the Pinball Network, we might have somebody who actually is a distributor and does a great job selling games. So he has a vested interest in perhaps selling games and hoping that companies come out with great games to make it easier for him to sell. I get that. But, you know, you have to, I don't know. You have to, I'm not talking about distributors. I'm talking about people, people playing games. Can I just add to that, though? That person that you were talking to, we might mention names. I've spoken to that person many times in person he has the same opinion it's not a shill position he actually just likes pinball that much that he can see the positives in every machine obviously he can see the positives in his pockets but he can see the positives of every machine it's what I'm sort of saying that there are these people that I constantly see the same names pop up in all these threads where all they do is shit on every single game every single and I just think who's hurt you? who's hurt you in such a way that the only way you can get joy or feel good about life is to put everything else around you down that's the only way you can pop yourself up i just think maybe you just need to take a good look inside and prop yourself up and say to yourself i love you person you are a good person i think you and i are in the minority buddy i know we are but i would just love I would just love for these people that just think it's funny to just get really personal and vindictive in these comments to just fuck off or take a good look at yourself and just be different. Be a better person. You've heard the old expression. It was kind of a newspaper thing. If it bleeds, it leads. Yeah. So I guess if you're not showing crazy drama or apocalyptic situations for pinball companies, if there's nothing like that happening, it's boring, it's not good content, if you will. That's too bad. Yeah. Anyway. What are you going to do? So much you're going to do. All right, let's go to these emails. I know you're dying to fucking read these things. No, we don't need to read the emails. Oh, there's a lot. There's a good one. You've got to go through them. Well, you read them out, but there's a lot of people that have all basically said the same thing, which is really strange now that I know. So many people have written and gone, oh, my God, the young one's amazing. You should check it out, Jeff. You will really like it.
    65:48
    And I said, okay, I watched it. I was like, oh, geez. Yeah, I know. And also, too, in fairness to you, Marty, when it came out, you were 12 years old. We changed our name. 10. No, it was 82. Was it 82? No. Was it? Yeah. I might have lost Bonnie Raitt, but it was 82 when it came out. No, you're probably right. I just remember I had just finished sixth grade and I was going into seventh. So, yeah, so you're right. Yeah, 82. There you go. We actually had an email from Jeff. I know we did. So we had him on the show. Your time is over, Jeff. Fuck off. You're done.
    66:25
    Hanush, Cliff Richard. What's that all about? What's the Cliff Richard thing? I'll say, yeah. Okay. Okay, so this is Hamish. Hi, Hamish. Hamish Guthrie is a really, really nice guy. New Zealand. Oh, he's a New Zealander. Okay. Yeah. So The Young Ones, so the actual theme song to The Young Ones is a Cliff Richard song. That anarchist loved Cliff Richard, didn't he? Correct. That was his thing. Oh, Cliff, I love Cliff. They actually did a cover version of The Young Ones with Cliff Richard. So The Young Ones with Cliff Richard for comic relief. Oh, nice. And I think that's what, I'm pretty sure, let me go back. I think that's what Hamish has linked us is the film clip to that. There's no arguing. It looked like the show was extremely successful. It was really. But what I was trying to explain to you, when I spoke to you and I said, I'm not trying to prove to you whether it's funny or not. In fact, I never said it was funny. I just said I couldn't believe that you didn't know what it was. Well, you told me about Drop Dead Fred. Yeah, I tried to explain to you who Rick Mayle was. Rick Mayle. and I wrote back to you and I said I don't know if I've ever laughed at anything Rick Mayles ever done. No you probably haven't and that's fine. This is what I'm saying. That's fine for you to find it not funny just like I don't find Ricky Gervais funny. Stop it you do. It's okay. You're lying. I used to. I actually used to. I really don't now. I really genuinely don't. How did he hurt you? He didn't really hurt me at all. I just kind of I just sort of moved on from his humour is what it was. So I just felt the same record's been playing for a few years. Yep. Brian writes in, the young ones, I'm American, right? At the same age as you old cunts and absolutely love the show. And I distinctly remember seeing Motorhead on an episode. That's where it all came about when we were talking about Motorhead and the young ones. We were able to see it here live on MTV in the mid-80s, and it was like nothing we'd ever seen before. So that was it, right? That was the point. bizarre punk anti-establishment non-sequitur amazing jeff do yourself a favor watch a few episodes i think you'll be glad you did well brian i hope you're listening to the show yeah he's not glad that he did no i think you're glad that you got to at least be part of the conversation oh here we go alex moss writes jeff you uncultured bastard classic alex how are you marty how the ever-loving fuck does anyone of class not know the young ones or bottom marty i am so sorry what a cunt he probably hasn't even heard of faulty towers go fuck yourself alex i know that and blackadder and monty python those are gold to me and almost definitely thinks the nanny and everyone loves raymond are the peak of comedy well if you know me well i will not watch a show like two and a half men sorry ed robertson big bang theory it's i know exactly can laughter shit go fuck off where every line is funny no it's not i've just got to say alex boss best insult ever he almost definitely thinks the nanny and everybody loves raymond are the peak of comedy that right there that cuts deep if it was accurate it would but jeff if you're listening, do yourself a favor. You can't lose with the young ones.
    69:45
    You'll laugh. You'll sing. You'll ask yourself, have we got a video? There's the People's Poet, the Punk Meds do it. All these fucking things. It sucked, dude. Sorry.
    69:58
    I'd call you a cunt, Jeff, but in the spirit of the young ones, I'll call you a bastard instead. Bastard! Marty, thanks for the memories. I'm off to revisit. Inflict this on my children. Love the show. Alright, Alex. Thanks, Alex. Yeah. What you're getting right now is the impact that it had on people. I mean, everybody. What happened when that came out? It was the most quotable show. Everybody would quote all the different sayings from the show. Cornflakes, cornflakes, cornflakes. Fuck, that was annoying as piss. Yep. So. Oh, our good friend Ed from Denmark emailed us. I originally just wanted to say the word hello, as Marty said we should. but when he asked for more I have seen both the Young Ones and Bottom. I have both on DVD and I also remember the Motorhead episode. Young Ones pretty funny. Especially the mix of people and the collective living together. Crazy punk, a stoned hippie, a reasonable businessman and a lunatic poet as far as I recall or something like that. I think Jeff might even enjoy it. We have a tribe here at Final Round I've just realized. What's that? As you and I are quote unquote the co-leaders of this We have a tribe of idiots listening to us. Don't be like that.
    71:16
    Anyway. My God. Okay, here's another one from Mark Dano. Okay, you Commonwealth cunts, here's your email. You've already won us over with your first line, Mark. I do remember seeing the show on MTV back in the day. I was only around 11 or 12, but I do remember the crazy and zany situations they would get into. I will always remember the guy with the stars pinned to his forehead. That was Vivian. Keep up the good work, and Commonwealth Cunts is now yours to do with as you please. Thanks, Mark. Dr. John even wrote in, too, and so did Rob Ciccini. My God.
    71:48
    You aren't kidding. Kevin R., he wrote in. Oh, my God. They saw my Greg Dunn. Thank you, Brandon, as well. He said, when Marty mentioned the Young Ones, my ears perked up. I fucking love that show. I haven't seen it in years, and now I'm going to have to give it a go. Okay, asshole tribe members, and I'm not trying to steal that from poor man's pinball podcast, a wonderful group that are enjoying the Midwest gaming classic right now as we speak. I'm saying that because Jeff talked about tribes and I don't understand the tribe listening. I'll do you this favor and we'll talk about it on episode 81. I'll watch another episode. Give it a try. Maybe the first one just didn't hit. Maybe there'll be an episode where Rick's not on and I'll enjoy it a lot more because he was fucking annoying as shit, but we'll see. See, that's the whole thing. If you were saying, oh my God, Rick is on the show and he's annoying, that's the point of it. Okay. You, I'm going to send you a Ricky Gervais special, and you have to watch it. Nope. Why? Because I don't want to watch it. I mean, that's obvious.
    72:46
    So I don't like him. I'm at that point where you can now no longer change my mind. So let's just leave it at that. Oh, old dog. Can't teach me tricks. Got it. All right. Chris Reid also said, I remember the young ones. MTV was airing the episodes from the late 80s, Around the time that we're airing the original Monkees TV show and the Beatles cartoons, I couldn't tell you the premise of any of the episodes at all. This has gone on to Facebook as well. Oh, my God. Phantom Tilt. I'm pretty sure all Aussies over 40 know The Young Ones. It seems to be a big thing over here. Yep. There you go. I think I know what the graphic is going to be. I've just figured that out. It's always a surprise, but why do I have a feeling I know what it's going to be this week? You never know.
    73:32
    Jeez. Marty, do we have anything else to talk about or can I go to bed? That is it You can go to bed I've got to get some rest The eclipse is coming and I don't want to miss it I'm kind of I get it now I was sort of taking the piss I'm like, why would you travel to an eclipse? But as I said people travel to the Northern Lights so why wouldn't they travel to see an eclipse if it's that good? I wonder if he's ever seen a double rainbow I have seen a double rainbow and in fact I've got a photo of a double rainbow that I took one day There you go I'd apologize to our listeners for the lack of pinball content, but I don't think we have to really lift a finger in these fuckers. Correct. They'll take anything. We are your young ones here, Jeff Hewless and Marty Robbins. Where can you reach us and not email us about the young ones?
    74:19
    Find a way on pinball at gmail.com. You can comment on this post on Facebook. You can even message us directly on Facebook. Don't Instagram or… Instagram is fine. It's fine, but we don't really get any messages there or respond to them. But email is always a good one, just wherever you can. We love – it absolutely just made our weeks. Because I think Jeff's mentioned a couple of times, I've been going through some personal stuff with my family, just my daughter not being well at all. And so being able to have this banter back and forth with people absolutely, absolutely changes everything. It really does help. So thank you. So as you can tell, pulling back the curtain a little bit, we like to take the piss out of each other. It's a sign of affection, whether it's with a guest, whether it's with each other, whether it's with you, the listeners. So I dish it out more than anyone else. So when you email and shoot us down, nothing brings us more joy because if I can't take it, well, then I'd be an asshole. But I dish it out, I take it, and I love it. So it's great. And, yeah, we had a couple of, obviously, you know, I'm thinking about you and your family there, Marty. At the same time, I'm asking, I'm telling Marty, yeah, I might be off a little bit. My mom had a stroke, so. Yeah, we both had a shitty time. Fuck me. Anyway, mom's doing a little better, but it was tougher, the two of us. And doing this kind of was a little cathartic. It was nice. It was good. It made me feel better, and we had to have Jeff on because he definitely makes us feel good. Because he can turn anything positive. We'll be back. It might be a while, but we'll be back, and you guys make us feel good too. So thanks very much. Have a great one. We'll talk to you soon. Thanks, everybody. Bye.