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Ep 112: Save That Cat!

LoserKid Pinball Podcast·podcast_episode·1h 32m·analyzed·Jul 10, 2023
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Analysis

claude-haiku-4-5-20251001 · $0.033

TL;DR

Centaur Resurrected impresses on quality but prices high; HomePin games underwhelm with weak mechanics and poor design decisions.

Summary

Josh and Scott discuss Haggis Pinball's Centaur Resurrected remake, praising its art direction and quality but expressing concerns about $12,000-$15,000 USD pricing and the awkward promotional song. They then analyze HomePin's two games (Spinal Tap and Thunderbirds) after playing them at Pinball Hall of Fame, criticizing weak flippers, poor rule integration, and Mike Kalinowski's dismissive attitude toward critics and the US market.

Key Claims

  • Haggis Centaur Resurrected base model is $12,000 USD and limited edition is $15,000 USD

    high confidence · Josh states this as translated information from Australian pricing, mentioning Flippin' Out Pinball as exclusive US dealer

  • Only 250 Rebellion and 50 Oblivion (colorized) models of Centaur will be produced

    high confidence · Scott and Josh discuss the limited production numbers as a supply/demand strategy

  • HomePin can produce approximately 40 playfields per month maximum (2 per day, 20 work days)

    medium confidence · Josh references this from an interview with Mike Kalinowski conducted by Dr. John from Aussie Pinball Podcast

  • HomePin has produced only 5 games total with only 2 publicly available

    medium confidence · Josh discusses production numbers in context of HomePin's market presence

  • Stern Pinball has 800,000 Facebook followers vs JJP's 43,000 and HomePin's ~1,000

    medium confidence · Josh cites Facebook follower counts as evidence against Mike Kalinowski's claim that critics attack HomePin for fame

  • Spinal Tap (HomePin) has weak flippers that feel like 'mush' and poor ramp physics with J-Pop-like return behavior

    high confidence · Josh describes hands-on experience playing Spinal Tap at Pinball Hall of Fame

  • Thunderbirds (HomePin) has 20-25 center ramp shots with no programmed purpose, added the night before shipping

    high confidence · Josh references the interview with Mike Kalinowski where Mike explains this design decision

  • Mike Kalinowski claims HomePin's games are not designed for people who know about pinball, only for casual theme-focused buyers

    high confidence · Josh and Scott discuss Mike's stated design philosophy from the Dr. John interview

Notable Quotes

  • “There are people who are collectors and they want that thing that no one else can have”

    Scott @ ~05:30 — Explains the scarcity-driven pricing strategy for Centaur's limited editions

  • “The lyrics. Oh, my goodness. We have been yelling 'half man' at each other at my household.”

    Josh @ ~08:45 — Criticizes the Centaur promotional song's awkward lyrics and memorability for wrong reasons

  • “If Loser Kid Pinball Podcast wants their 15 minutes of fame, we're not going to go after a company with less followers than we get... it makes no sense for me to target your company”

    Josh @ ~18:30 — Directly refutes Mike Kalinowski's accusation that critics attack HomePin for publicity

  • “It felt like a Zizzle got the go-ahead to make a full-size machine. If you want a Zizzle for the price of a Stern...”

    Josh @ ~32:15 — Harsh comparison of Spinal Tap's quality to digital pinball at premium price

  • “It felt like the kid that procrastinated his homework project up until the last point and then was like here you go”

    Josh @ ~35:00 — Describes the overall feel of HomePin's execution and polish

  • “Why even have any rules? Yeah. Why have any scoring whatsoever? Yeah. Because if score doesn't matter, then why would you even worry about it?”

    Scott and Josh @ ~22:00 — Questions the fundamental design philosophy of HomePin's games

  • “Imagine a car company coming out and saying, you know, all the people who know how to drive cars, this car isn't for you.”

    Josh @ ~23:30 — Analogy highlighting the absurdity of explicitly excluding knowledgeable players from a premium product

  • “We have the updated code and the original code the OEM”

    Scott @ ~11:15 — Notes Haggis's approach to maintaining retro authenticity with dual code options like Fathom

Entities

Haggis PinballcompanyCentaur ResurrectedgameHomePincompanyMike KalinowskipersonSpinal TapgameThunderbirdsgameJosh Roopperson

Signals

  • ?

    business_signal: HomePin's limited production capacity (40/month max), small global footprint (~1,000 FB followers), and exclusion of US market severely limits growth potential while maintaining premium pricing

    high · Josh calculates max ~300 games worldwide and notes 800,000 Stern followers vs ~1,000 HomePin followers

  • ~

    sentiment_shift: Hosts express strong frustration with HomePin's approach; Josh criticizes Mike Kalinowski's narcissistic/arrogant demeanor and dismissal of all criticism; hosts prepare to distance themselves from company

    high · Josh: 'this whole interview just, it got under my skin. Like, dude, you suck at pinball. You suck at making it, you suck at producing it'

  • ?

    design_philosophy: HomePin explicitly markets games to casual, non-pinball-literate players while charging premium prices; Mike Kalinowski dismisses criticism as bandwagon hating, contradicts own design by including scoring if score doesn't matter

    high · Josh: 'all the people who know about pinball, this isn't for you. That says, okay, imagine a car company coming out and saying, you know, all the people who know how to drive cars, this car isn't for you'

  • ?

    licensing_signal: HomePin's Spinal Tap integrates movie content poorly with three-second clips unrelated to gameplay modes; contrasts with Star Trek pinball's integrated movie dialogue; design choice raises questions about theme execution

    medium · Josh: 'The problem is you're playing a game where none of the scenes from the movie have anything to do with the gameplay'

  • $

    market_signal: Haggis using aggressive scarcity strategy (300 units total, 50 for colorized Oblivion LE) to support premium pricing; Josh predicts 50-unit LE will sell out to whale collectors but uncertain about full run

Transcript

groq_whisper · $0.278

0:00
thanks for tuning in to the loser kid pinball podcast we are on episode 112 i am josh roop with me my co-captain as always scott larson and scott rumors are dropping man games are being released like fireworks good crime and if you want that sweet sweet game who you gonna be calling Well, flipping out pinball. And let me tell you what I did. I actually bought five Insider Connected kits. Dang. And I put them in – well, actually, Iron Maiden already had one. I put one in Infinity Quest. I put one in Jurassic Park. I put one in Deadpool, and I put one in Led Zeppelin. And I immediately got the GC on Led Zeppelin. I'm not saying it was because of that, but it's pretty much I think I put some Zach Mini into the game. Nice. So, of course, I got it basically on my first ball, and then the next two balls I totally drained. But, you know, we won't really talk about that. I don't blame you. But absolutely. Zach and Nicole, they've always been good for us. So reach out to them. Flipping out pinball. I love their honesty. I helped a friend get a Godzilla Premium from them this week. and they said well here's the situation we do have one but there's a hole in the box and we understand if you do not want that and the family's like we want it yeah he says there's no damage to the game but i just wanted to let you know and and that's fair because you know it's you know how easy he could have just shipped that out and then it could have got to the homeowner and he could just claim oh it must have got damaged in transit you know and you know what he was upfront and honest about it. And that, I think that creates less problems and that is a lot of transparency you want in a company. No nonsense. Well, cool. Speaking of releases, I think the biggest news we have this week out of everything that's starting to swell is Centaur 2.0 or revisited as they're branding it. Resurrected. Resurrected from Haggis. They totally should have used that. They should have. Like why should you like, and come on Centaur. The dude looks like he's some beast from hell. Yes. No, I totally agree. Absolutely, yeah. Okay. What are you thinking release-wise of this game? Let's talk about the actual game itself before we get into any of the haggis shenanigans. Do you think Centaur is a smart game to revisit?
2:31
It's a well-respected game. I would argue though it's probably more known for the art package than the gameplay I would agree because it's it's very limited in production as well right but it and it certainly looks cool and I do like that they went with more of that retro feel it kind of looks like a Pulp Fiction cabinet. Yep. No, I agree. So I do like that.
Scott Larson
person
Dr. Johnperson
Flippin' Out Pinballcompany
Zach Minneyperson
Pinball Hall of Famelocation
Stern Pinballcompany
Jersey Jack Pinballcompany
Medieval Madness Royal Editiongame
Fathomgame

high · Josh: 'if you definitely want to up your price you lower your supply' and 'at such a limited number, you are going to get buy-in from these collectors'

  • ?

    personnel_signal: Mike Kalinowski of HomePin interviewed by Dr. John (Aussie Pinball Podcast); interview revealed significant design process issues and dismissive attitude toward critics

    high · Josh references interview details about production capacity and design decisions

  • $

    market_signal: Centaur Resurrected at $12,000-$15,000 USD is at high end of current market; Josh questions if buyers can justify this vs competing games like Godzilla Premium and Jurassic Park Premium

    high · Scott: 'whether or not you can actually command that price, you have to make sure that the collector wants to secure that spot'

  • ?

    product_strategy: Centaur Resurrected positioned as retro/era-appropriate remake with both OEM and updated code versions; contrasts with homebrews and modern designs; colorized LE is unique differentiation from black/white Rebellion

    high · Scott: 'it won't be in the original code right the original code is going to strive as much as possible to make it feel right'

  • ?

    product_concern: HomePin's Spinal Tap has weak flippers described as 'mush' and poor ramp design with unexpected J-Pop return behavior; Thunderbirds has center ramp shots with no programmed purpose added night-before shipping

    high · Josh: 'The flippers felt weak. They just, they felt like mush' and 'they said oh we have these lights back here We don't really have anything programmed'

  • ~

    sentiment_shift: Hosts note that multiple recent pinball reveals have featured problematic promotional songs (Centaur, Space Hunt, Galactic Tank Force); community consensus that music hasn't worked well this year

    medium · Josh: 'I don't feel like anyone this year has released a pinball machine. And they've been like, you know what? The music has been so spot on'

    • 3:00
    Man, I will say the price point they're shooting for, wow, you have to be a big fan of this game. Yeah. And that's the challenge is that it's super expensive. The Australian dollar on it is $15,000 for the base model and then $25,000, this is Australian, for the Oblivion model. But no, I agree. I think the art is very classic. It's very unique. You don't see this on almost any other pinball machine. I'm not just talking just about the black and white. I'm talking about the actual art package itself. Well, let's also point out something. This is interesting because it does have an attractive woman on there, but it's not the objectified version, which you see so much from this version in Pinball. I mean, I would say both the centaur and the woman in the back glass, they look like they're both really tough, which is totally unique for this era of pinball. And so I do appreciate that. Yeah. I like – if you've never played centaur, I don't know if pinball arcade – I guess they still don't have it because it's a ballet game. I know I still have it on my phone because I bought it before they lost the license. Yeah. It's a very unique play rule set. And what's even more unique is you can work on earning, adding more balls into your multi ball. Yeah. So it's kind of like a risk reward and cashing out and getting more, you know, four, three times, four times whatnot. And the shots are intriguing because there's that left, like, you know how Godzilla goes behind the flipper. It's got that little cove that goes around the backside of the flipper. that's similar on centaur but when it comes out the other end it has a cat a captive ball and you can hit that and it goes up through some drop inline drop targets it's very unique in its play it's very brutal it is not a forgiving game no yeah well most of these games from this era are and they're they're known for just being coin coin takers oh yeah i i'm excited to see this because like i said the production's low uh it's a very uh sought after game but like you said i think the biggest hurdle on this one is the money but to counteract that they went i feel like they went with less of a run right there's only 250 of the rebellion model is that what it is i can't remember and then the oblivion's only 50 so 300 units total yeah i mean we talk about supply and demand on the show all the time if you definitely want to up your price you lower your supply right because there are people who are collectors and they want that thing that no one else can have yep and this is definitely going to make it to where people aren't able to obtain it we've also talked about the economy of pinball and the economy in general taking a dip do you think haggis sells out because these have officially started selling they sell start this Wednesday actually at like 11 in the morning. I don't know if that's, it's probably their time. So it's probably like five o'clock our time or something like that. I don't know. I, the high end will for fit for 50. You're, you are going to get, there are at least 50 whale collectors out there. And, and that's a gambling term. They, the whales are the, the big fish that the casinos are all trying to get. And I know, I know whales, not a fish, but you ever watched James Bond's casino Royale. Yep. All the whales are sitting there, you know? Yeah. So that, so at such a limited number, you are going to get buy-in from these collectors. Yeah. Uh, this is definitely taking it to a more exclusive club. I'm not sure about the entire run though. I, So I think the high ends, yes. The entire run, maybe, you are also competing with Godzilla Premium. You're competing with Jurassic Park Premium. And you're competing against Foo Fighters, all these games. So whether or not you can actually command that price, you have to make sure that the collector wants to secure that spot in his or her lineup. Yeah.
    7:44
    And I think, you know what, I agree with you on the 50. Do you think that the colorization of the play field will be a, do you think it'll be a perk or do you think it'll actually be a hurdle? Because it's so iconic with the black and white. I thought it was very interesting to decide to go with color on that limited 50, which truly makes it stand out as a limited edition because you're never going to see that anywhere else. In 50 games, I mean, that's nothing for the world. You know what I'm saying? That's a tiny bit. I, I, it's hard to tell because anytime you put color in, you are at risk of, of what's the, what's the comment that people always make when people throw in just like a bunch of LEDs into the game. It's like bomb puke or whatever. Yeah. So as, but it looks like from when I'm looking at it, that it looks more subdued. Yeah. So this doesn't feel like a – there is that tipping point where it looks like a casino game. Because the casino games are drenched in rainbow color. Just every color, they're just trying to scream for your attention. This seems a little more subdued just on the pictures that they're giving anyway. Yeah.
    9:08
    So I think it's going to be fine. I don't think it actually detracts that much. The back glass is still that classic, you know, it's mostly black and white. Yeah, there's a few color in there, but I don't see this as being much of an issue because it does look like retro colors. Yeah, I agree. I think they've done very well with it. I think the actual product of the game is very nice.
    9:35
    I do have a hard time. I think they said translated. Don't quote me on this. Don't be calling, flipping out, because they are the exclusive U.S. dealer for this game. I heard that the U.S. dollar was $12,000 for the base model and $15,000 for the limited. So it's not too far out of the park where pinball prices are at right now. I mean, that lines up with a JJP. Yeah, and we played Fathom Mermaid. Yeah. It was great. It was amazing. It felt solid. The quality was amazing. amazing yeah it like that one felt like it was resurrected from a previous version of itself like a phoenix rising what was amazing is if you've ever played these older games you can always tell that they're definitely used right like they're sluggish yep there's a lot of floatiness to it mermaid did have a little bit of floatiness but the flippers felt amazing and traditional and i would say the floaty felt era appropriate like era appropriate absolutely so it didn't feel like a you know it is interesting though i did message uh you and and the triple drain guys we talk a lot in the background and i went and played my friend's medieval madness Royal Edition. And I've played it before, but there is something that feels slightly different about that version of the game versus my version. And I have the standard version. I'm pretty sure it was made in the Stern Factory. And it feels very much similar to a Stern game. Now, I don't notice much of a difference with Attack from Mars, because that was definitely made in a CGC factory.
    11:23
    But for some reason, just maybe what I'm used to with mine, it feels different. And so I don't know if anyone else has had that situation.
    11:33
    But with this remake, if you are a Centaur fan, you're going to buy it. Definitely. No, I agree. Overall, I don't know. I'm happy for anyone that is getting this game. I think you've got a solid game on your hands.
    11:50
    I don't go reading through every comment on the forum, but everyone that has received their Haggis game, whether it be Kelts or Fathom, has been very happy with it. I haven't heard of any issues across the board, and they're built like a tank. I mean, with that nice plastic coating on top, it protects your playfield,
    12:12
    and it's not like a plastic playfield protector. It's something that feels like a playfield without ruining the playfield. Right. So just you're getting a good quality product. I think this is a smart move by Haggis to keep the numbers down. Right.
    12:30
    I am a little nervous just because if you remember when Fathom was released, they gave it like two weeks or something like that to sell out. Yeah. And it seemed like they're at the tail end.
    12:43
    Dealers bought out the rest to kind of sell out that run. Right. And that was at a cheaper price point than what we have at Centaur. So I'm going to be interested, especially with just Zach being the dealer for America, if they'll sell out like they did before. Time will tell. We'll see.
    13:02
    Hopefully, Haggis will keep us updated as things progress on Wednesday. So I got to mention one thing, though, before we get off this topic.
    13:12
    I love you guys. I love you, Haggis. I really respect Martin. Guys, that song, I've been making fun of it for like three days now, four days now. And I don't think it's the song itself. Like, you can definitely tell it is very inspired by Rammstein.
    13:33
    But the lyrics. Oh, my goodness. We have been yelling half man at each other at my household. And people have just been randomly messaging me half machine. It's like, hey, that's great. It's like, it's like lion man, lion man. It's, it's like you typed into chat GPT what lyrics you wanted for a Rammstein song and it, and that's what it gave you. Who's to say that's not what they did. Oh my goodness. It's just, it's rough. The lyrics are rough. It takes me out of the experience.
    14:09
    What do you think it should sound like? That's my question. You know what? And honestly, I got to think about the Rammstein feels probably correct for Centaur. Okay. It's the lyrics. It's the lyrics that get me. Because the funny part is, I was listening to this super quiet. It was 4th of July night. We all got in bed because they just revealed it on the 4th of July Independence Day for America. And I had it so quiet. I'm like, is that Rammstein? And as I'm watching the video, all of a sudden I heard like half man. And I'm like, what was that? But the problem was, I'm in bed. the kids are asleep i don't want to be blaring music so i was like i'll just listen to it in the morning and then we all got on our chats and we're just listening to the song together and it was just oh my goodness like yeah keep the why even put lyrics to it yeah and and that's that's probably where they would they should retool it is just have it uh you know kind of that that thrash metal type vibe yeah did you order the song off a wish like where did who wrote the lyrics well maybe they ordered it from the the rammstein wish site but it maybe doesn't always come out the way you think maybe they gave a sandwich to the same guy that was supposed to do the usb stuff for home oh wow we are gonna get into that yeah yeah overall okay for haggis and the reveal of everything they're gonna they're gonna retool that there's no way that's gonna be the the end but hey It was memorable.
    15:40
    That seems to be the new meta, right? We've got this now. Space. Hunt. What was some of the other ones we were talking about? It's come out just this year. All the songs, for some odd reason, have just been really rough for reveals. Like Galactic Tank Force. Okay, not everybody can reveal to Welcome to the Jungle. True. Oh, that brings up the slash Godfather theme. Like, I had a lot of people like, oh, that's just a little too much. And it's just funny because I don't feel like anyone this year has released a pinball machine. And they've been like, you know what? The music has been so spot on. Nailed it. And with Foo Fighters, it's their music. If you have a music pin, there's a reason why you're making a music pin, because their music is iconic. Correct.
    16:38
    And if you're Scott Denise, I mean, you know, no one goes, like, why did he put that in this? They usually buy Final Resistance because of his music, right? So, yeah, hopefully it gets retooled.
    16:53
    And that was the thing, by the end of the trailer, the second or third time I watched it, I'm like, are they going to put the song in centaur maybe i just don't feel like it'd be era appropriate and granted it won't be in the it won't be in the original code right the original code is going to strive as much as possible to make it feel right feel like pretty much like fathom where you have the updated code and the original code the the og the oem okay i'm off my soapbox Just next time, next person that reveals a game, please. I don't know. Just run it by Josh. Don't do lyrics. I don't know. Yeah, I don't know.
    17:36
    Oh, my goodness. Speaking of Home Pin, let's move on to some Home Pin magic because I've got plenty in my pocket. I don't know about you. To start with, now, Josh, we'll get into this. You just got back from the Pinball Hall of Fame. Correct. So Mike from Home Pin has said all the people who are complaining about his game, his games are the ones who haven't played it. And it's according to him, they're just trying to it's kind of like hating Nickelback. It's like, oh, well, I you hate Nickelback. Yeah, the cool kids hate Nickelback. So that's kind of the assertion that if you don't like this, you're just piling on to get your, his words, 15 minutes of fame. Not sure you're getting much fame off that. But you actually played these two games. So give me the skinny. Sorry. So I'm going to refer to you. So Aussie Pinball Podcast, Dr. John, friend of the show. Dr. John. He did an interview with Mike from Home Pin. I don't even know his last name. It's always just Mike from Home Pin, right?
    18:45
    And like you stated... I think his first name is Magic. I'm going to bring up some stuff from the interview first because I know that it's been talked about. But there are some things that have not been talked about in this interview because it was just dripping with so much information. I don't know how else you want to call it. But like you said, for someone to... Mike feels picked on because jumping on the bandwagon to hate his games so you can only get your 15 minutes of fame. His last name is Kalinowski. Oh, good to know. Kalinowski. Mike Kalinowski. I agree with you. It is similar to hating Nickelback, which I'm not a fan of Nickelback. But that's the thing. Nickelback has multi... They sold like 16 million albums. Somebody bought them. Nickelback's a multi-platinum... It's like when Machine Gun Kelly wanted to become famous, he dissed Eminem so much that... Eminem felt like he finally had to reply, and he got the publicity of Eminem dissing him. Right. Like, I don't feel like anyone, even in the pinball industry, attacks Home Pin for the fame.
    19:53
    Let me bring up some numbers. I took some numbers down for you. Guess how many Stern followers, this is just Facebook, Facebook alone, how many followers do they have?
    20:05
    Okay, this is me just shooting from the hip. Okay. I'm going to give you a range. I would say between 10 and 20,000. Okay. Maybe even north of that. Stern Pinball, 80,000 followers.
    20:18
    Yeah. Or sorry, not 80, 800,000 followers. I apologize. Okay. 800,000. Just shy of a million. Okay. That's for a very niche product, which pinball is still niche. That's a very respectable number. Yeah. JJP's in second. Mm-hmm. 43,000. That's still pretty respectable, right? Yeah. Okay, but now compare it. You said, how much did you say for Stern? 800,000. Let that soak in. 800,000. And the next closest is JJP with 43,000. Which is 1 20th. Yeah, it's 5%. It's probably comparable to the market share, to be frank. Yeah. Spooky, who's been around for more than a decade 30? 12,000 12,000, okay American Pinball, they've been around for about 5-6 years now I'm guessing 5 I think 2017 was the inception But still 5,000? 7,000 Haggis, so Mike From Home Pin accused Haggis of stealing the Plastic protector for the play field Right guess how many followers they have? 2,000. And this was before Centaur. Okay, 2,000. 4,000. Okay, all right. These are still respectable numbers, right? They're still respectable numbers. Like, we're not dissing on any of that. Exactly. Especially with, we're going kind of like chronologically, these companies haven't been out as long. HomePin has been out longer than Haggis. Do you know how many followers they have? Well, okay. home pin they do not sell to unnamed country okay oh yeah it's the it's the u.s by company xyz or a country xyz yeah so they have zero presence in the united states yes so we're going to take all of that out of the equation yeah let's assume that there are still like Facebook is still used internationally. Yep. But given that you're showing this precipitous drop, I'm going to just throw out a number that may be 800.
    22:42
    You're close. Okay. Just shy over 1,000. Okay. So. How many games have they made? I'm not talking titles. I'm talking about how many games have they made? They've made three plus whatever Porsche. Porsche, I think they've roughly made five. Okay. And technically only two are available publicly. Sure. But how many total games have they made Any idea on that Not a clue Because on the interview he even talked about they can do two play fields a day something like that is that what i heard something like that so if it two play fields a day let's just say 20 work days so the maximum production they can make is 40 a month yeah right something like that yeah so let's just assume that they're making they're cranking these suckers out nonstop, like in a year you're making, there's no way they're making, you know, they can't be, that's not even possible. Like there's no chance there's more than 300 of these games worldwide. No chance. So my point being is, if Loser Kid Pinball Podcast wants their 15 minutes of fame, we're not going to go after a company it's not a target less followers then we get we get more than double the listens per episode like i'm not it makes no sense for me to target your company whether i like it or not because i'm going to get famous off of it like that is such a arrogant little well it's narcissistic. Like, this guy alone, like, this whole interview just, it got under my skin. Like, dude, you suck at pinball. You suck at making it, you suck at producing it, and you sit there and you go off about America being, you don't even say America, because we shall not be named. By the way, he had, according to him, there were four people.
    24:51
    Count them four. Yeah. Okay? How many live in the United States? Isn't it like 370 million? That's what I was going to say, like 330 million. Okay. By the way, if you look at any medical reviews out there, by the way, so my company, we actually are one of the biggest anesthesia providers in Utah. and we do easily 500 cases a day just just across the system okay yeah and the total amount of reviews we have on google are like 15 and they're all from people who were ticked off for some reason or another yeah well you're not representative of the whole thing so if you're talking exactly people um with paypal that you felt gamed the system and left a bad taste in your mouth i that is such a weird uh cross-section of you know okay well four people in the entire united states that's not representative of what's going on and if you want to nuke an entire country and by the way the one of the biggest economies on the on the planet yeah like is that is that really because you had a couple pinball economy like absolutely hands down yeah yeah where's pinball made josh where's chicago illinois chicago where's chicago isn't it smack dab in the middle of the united states yeah somewhere like that a little north of middle but yeah i get what you're saying and so it's it seems his attitude seems so bizarre i mean it really felt like he there were so many things about his attitude that rubbed me the wrong way. Mike has said that he is not interested in score. He said the whole point of pinball, or at least for his, the way he approaches it is I just want to have a game that I can, you know, drink with my buddies and bang it around. Yeah. And that's, that's really his, his attitude. It's like, I don't care if someone gets like 100 points more than me or whatever. It's like, that's not the point.
    27:09
    Well, okay, if it's not the point, why even have any rules? Yeah. Why have any scoring whatsoever? Yeah. Because if score doesn't matter, then why would you even worry about it? I agree. And coming out and saying that, look, all the people who know about pinball, this isn't for you. Yeah. That says, okay, imagine a car company coming out and saying, you know, all the people who know how to drive cars, this car isn't for you. Yeah. And the bottom line is because it doesn't hold up in comparison. it's still roughly the same price as a fully functional game and you're you're basically saying that i am offering you a product that is not that good it's it it it boggles my mind that like that so who is your market like the the naive guy guy or girl who wants to have that cave the game room that knows nothing other than theme. Yep. Like that, that's obviously the only market that he's catering to the only market. And it just, this whole interview is just from top to bottom. Like John did a great job. He was very, holy crap. Like I just,
    28:44
    I don't, I don't get this man. I don't get how you could uproot your life, like majorly twice. to make this product and not like you, you're banking your whole life on this product and you're marketing it totally opposite. Mike, I've got, if this doesn't work out, I've got a couple of options for you.
    29:03
    A ham company specifically for Jewish people. Oh my gosh. An ice cream company for Eskimos. Ooh, an alcohol company for members of the church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. I hope that that's a good one. Right. Yeah. For teetotalers. Alcohol for teetotalers. Yeah. Yes. And if none of those work out, you know what? It just wasn't for them. It was, you know. Maybe you can go into hovercrafts with Andrew Highway. Oh, maybe. Just why? Like, just why? You know what? Mind you, you are welcome. You're getting your 15 minutes of fame from us because this is probably the last time I want to even. Okay. But you know. Okay. We're putting the cart before the horse, though. You played both of these games at the Pinball Hall of Fame. Yeah. So tell me, how was it? Okay.
    29:59
    I played Spinal Tap first. Okay. It's exactly what he said. It feels like a game made for people that just want to bang the ball around and have a beer with the buddy. I didn't care about score.
    30:14
    Honestly, I couldn't drain if I wanted to try. it's very much he's still stuck in like the 70s so even though the layout's modern you've got ramps you got orbits and spinners and scoops it still felt floaty and just weak like an em right and the other part that really sucked and maybe this is because it's on location i don't know you've got a left ramp and the way that it's pitched is you get like two-thirds through that ramp and if it still doesn't have enough juice it still comes back through that ramp at you it's like a j-pop ramp yes it's like a j-pop ramp but the funny part is it's not even like you know j-pop rants they are like tilted to the to the glass yeah or like the george gomez like the um i can't or with the left shot of Monster Bash where you hit it. It's not steep, but it's long. And so if you don't strike it, it's not going to make it all the way up because the habit trail is so long. Exactly. That is a perfect example. That's how it feels. You shoot that shot. You watch it go up around the corner and hope it comes around the other corner. And if it doesn't, it trickles back at you. Like I said, it could be. Dribbles back. Dribbles. that could be a flipper issue. The flippers felt weak. They just, they felt like mush. It felt like it shot fine. Like the layout shot.
    31:46
    I don't know. Define fine. Was that fun? It was very boring to me. Okay. It just, I didn't feel any energy. I didn't feel any moments. The problem is you're playing a game where none of the scenes from the movie have anything to do with the gameplay. And there's, they're seriously only two, three seconds long. Cause you know, when you're watching a movie, all you want is two, three seconds, right? Like playing a pinball machine. Okay. Other machines have integrated movie assets. Yeah. Like Star Trek. Even though it's pulled directly from the movie. Yeah. I love that those modes are constantly spitting out lines from the same, like when you're playing, whether it's Spock and, and Captain Kirk are trying to run and jump off the cliff. Right. Yeah. And it's just spouting out those lines. It's fantastic. This is just randomly – it has nothing to do with the mode, right? Like there was like banana mode and you had to shoot to like unpeel the banana. But why even have a mode?
    32:47
    Okay. All right. The scoop was how you started the modes, which is on the far left, similar to like a world – Like every game? Yeah. You know, granted, the layout, like I said, it was very reminiscent of the 90s. bally williams you've got a pop nest in the top right the thing that confused the crap out of me is the the skill shot right you pull it back and it looks kind of like you know how willie wonka you kind of have to get up in between a spot and if you over plunge it goes up around the top i mean a lot of pat lauer games like that where you have to just hit the sweet spot this one i was trying to do that because i was like oh i've got to hit the sweet spot I missed the first time and the second time I just didn't care and so I just full plunged and then I realized oh if you full plunge every time it just gives you the skill shot because you know that's skillful right because it actually shot it through that hole and then up through the rollovers and so skill shot and I'm like for what I did nothing besides pull back as hard as I want to and my four year old can do that that's probably the skill level he's shooting for I'm actually surprised he has a plunger and not just like a button launcher. And you know what? Overall, if you're looking for... This is how it felt overall to me. It felt like a Zizzle got the go-ahead to make a full-size machine. If you want a Zizzle for the price of a Stern... If you want a Zizzle, just wait for Harry Potter. Good criminy. It just... Like I said, overall, it's not the worst game I've ever played. Okay. but it's not something you'd want to buy no not even close I feel bad to the people that this was their dream theme because it feels like the kid that procrastinated his homework project up until the last point and then was like here you go and the teacher was like this isn't even like a coherent statement I guess that's a little mean to say because the layout does seem fine it's better than Thunderbirds holy crap which yeah okay why why shoot the center ramp how many times is international rescue like 20 25 okay here's the funny thing about that in the interview they asked about it and he said they basically it was the night before that they said oh we have these lights back here We don't really have anything programmed. Okay. Why is that not in your planning sessions? Like it, that seems very odd that I can understand them not having a good idea for it, but saying, Hey, we had all these lights here and we had no clue on what we were going to do with that. Yeah. So that seems so bizarre that there wasn't some. So I, that's like a, a planning session you have in the first month of the game it's not when you're about to ship it out the door right well why even put it in then like if you're like oh we don't know what this is going to do and here's the thing about here's the thing about thunderbirds is that center ramp is so close to those flippers it's like where else do i shoot because that ramp is right there it just it boggles my mind okay you know i said this isn't the worst game i have ever played this would have another dollar in it though no i didn't finish either game that's the problem though is like by my second ball on spinal tap i already earned two extra balls and what still just hitting the ball around because that's you know hit the ball around to have a beer with the buddies right and so i finally walked away from it because i just was so uninterested in the game it just and i wanted to like it i enjoy this is spinal tap i think that is a great game a great movie thunderbirds and spinal tap may not be the worst game i've ever played but i'm comparing it to games that have been around for 40, 50, multiple years. These two games are by far the worst games being made in production today. I'm not saying quality. I'm not saying – I am saying gameplay. I am saying theme integration. I'm saying artwork.
    37:22
    They're just – they're rough. and it breaks my heart because like i know i have a friend that loves thunderbirds right that was their show growing up and they loved it so much so that like it's just been a part of their life their whole life so when thunderbirds came out that's one of the reasons that got them into pinball and they went and played it and just was so mad at the disrespect of i think i think is lazy i i think that's what it comes down to it's no he said it's the disrespect of the property yeah just being that lazy shows that you're not caring for that property like someone that has grown up with these like this wouldn't fly if stern was like we made avengers and this came out what what these games see i will say that Thunderbirds, it looks like in the homebrew section at Expo, the people who have a passion for a theme and typically they're rough. I respect what they've done. I haven't made a pinball machine myself and I respect how difficult it is, but it still feels like it's a fan fiction product. It's not ready for publication.
    38:50
    So when you look at Thunderbirds, Thunderbirds feels like I should earn a gumball at the end of the drain. Yeah. You know, it's like a novelty game. That's what it looks like. This is Spinal Tap. It looks okay.
    39:07
    I mean, it has... It looks like a very generic play field. I agree with you, Spinal Tap. does feel like a homebrew right i though would say that thunderbirds is so bad it is an insult to say that it looks like a homebrew because i have played multiple homebrews well chicago and at texas yeah and those people i would hire one of those people to design your game yeah before i told you to release what they did for thunderbirds so the challenge is i don't know if someone playing this would say i love it enough to like are you going to get people buying these games after they play it or are is it an impulse buy for a a whale person who just has a dream theme and has a game room yeah that's pretty much what it comes down to but it just it's it stinks because like we know people that work in the industry that have wells that buy from their company right and they buy they'll call up and buy 10 machines at once because they got the money yeah i'm They'll say what he got in stock and they'll buy arcade and pinball. They don't care. I would be surprised though. It just seems that he's intentionally – okay, the point of this is he's pretty relevant on the pinball landscape, right? And so you know when someone comes out and just starts like flamethrowing to get attention? Like Robert Mueller maybe? I would say that when I listened to the interview, there were elements of someone who is very self-confident and very sure that they have all the answers. And anytime something didn't work out, it was because it was punitive on regulations, government, whatever. Yeah. And every version of anything that he talked about, it made him sound really good. Yeah. And other people sound really bad or vindictive. so I it's it's a very dangerous personality mix that if you have there's a fine line between confidence and arrogance this guy was so far away from the line the line didn't exist that's true like he was so far into the arrogant narcissism that I it was hard if I were in a room with this guy, I probably would just kind of walk away or just wait for the train wreck. Yeah. Because nothing that he was saying seemed to be making sense. Like he's – okay, should we get into the USB thing? Yeah, go for it. We've been updating games through USB since when? Dennis Creasel said the invention of it was in 1996. Okay, but when – like in – okay, Simpsons I know has a chip, okay? Yeah, the EEPROM. Yeah. So at some point between that and Pirates of the Caribbean, because I have that Stern one. At least since Spike won games. Yeah, okay. So 15, 16 years? At least, yeah. Yeah, and so this is not new technology. Well, it's not just Stern. It's JJP. Yeah, well, JJP has their own issues about updating games.
    42:42
    My Wizard of Oz, that was kind of a pain to update my games. So I will say that, yes. There's still USB, though, right? It took me a while to figure it out.
    42:52
    But K-Stern has the – they have it down. It is very streamlined. And any respectable engineer can retro-engineer something.
    43:08
    If you give them a product, they can say, I can figure out how that works and I can just replicate it. OK, so if you're saying that you are an amazing engineer and these experts in the field can't figure out something that Stern has been doing for 18 years, that makes me question your expertise a little bit. And when you find someone who can do it for for chips in a sandwich, you're not getting top notch talent. No, I'm sorry that you're not. And so that's not a professional thing. And to claim that all the experts out there, the so-called experts out there, couldn't figure it out, that makes me question your ability to assess what an expert is.
    43:59
    But not only that, to say that motherboards will fail within a couple of years. I'm sorry. Show me the bodies. Show me all the games that are put out to the curb after three years then. That means everything made – that means my Avengers should have stopped working by now. It was made in 2020, and my World Cup soccer over there should not even exist because the motherboards in it should be dead. My oldest game, Black Rose, okay? Yeah. Black Rose, 1992-ish, okay? So that's a 30-year-old game. Uh-huh. Still working.
    44:37
    My Amazing Spider-Man from Gottlieb in 81. Mm-hmm. It was still working while I sold it. It had a motherboard.
    44:45
    It seemed very strange. The positions he was taking, it really smacked of, I'm smarter than everybody in the room, and I'm going to tell you that. I think we should grant his wish, and these games aren't for us, so no one should support him.
    45:06
    I am curious. None of us pinball people should support him. Sorry, let me rephrase that. But he's coming to Expo next year. Yeah, what was up with that? So I'm not catering to the pinball crowd, but I'm going to a pinball expo. In country XYZ. So let me get this way. In the center of – You think America sucks so much to the point that you won't say their name. Yeah, it seems a very immature thing to do. And you don't sell to pinball people, yet you're coming to a pinball convention in America to sell your product. Right. Get out of here. I'm sure I'll be at Pinball Expo. I will go up. I'll stand in line. I'll go and I'll play the game.
    45:58
    Eventually, at some point, I will make it down to the Pinball Hall of Fame because it's about seven hours away.
    46:03
    And I will give my own assessment of actually playing. Okay. So the only thing that I commented on is his attitude his business decisions and how he comes across which just seems bizarre OK compare him to someone who was really savvy with the media Jersey Jack Yeah. We're talking light years difference. Yep. Like you don't, you don't try to alienate people by criticizing them by, by attacking them. If you're trying to actually sell things to them, then you should probably be more likable. Yeah. He's not like or the or the very least not tell the whole country that that makes pinball machines is the highest economic demographic of the product you're making. Mm hmm. That were so terrible. You can't even say our name because of four people on PayPal. It seemed weird. But then did you notice that he turned and he said, actually, PayPal is fine now because if someone says anything, I immediately file a complaint and it goes to the ombudsman. So basically he takes a very aggressive tactic as opposed to saying, okay, is this a valid complaint? Because that's what you should do as a business. Yeah, I agree. It's a valid complaint, but he just – he seems, according to the interview, that he just takes a very aggressive, defensive thing. Now, there was another guy that we have talked about a lot that was a big talker, that had a flamethrower, and started trying to throw haymakers at Stern. Yeah. How did that turn out for him? He's sitting in a prison cell, hopefully. Hopefully. or he's at least the very least on house arrest because he stole millions of dollars yeah that was a con man this guy yeah yeah and and by the way i'm not saying that mike is a con man i'm not i because he's made a product it's completely delivering the product yes yeah it is completely different however there are a lot of attitudes that are very similar between the two he is the guy that when you go to your favorite sports team and sit in the arena he's yelling from the grand stands and the the number one athletes in the league that they suck they're not doing it right and he could do it better and i don't know if you ever saw this video but in the uk there was a there was a man harassing a female tennis player that he could do it better because he was a man so she finally said come on you come play he had to put the skirt on though so he got down on the court put on the skirt started playing and got his butt handed to him right from a woman well okay because Because you will. Any elite athlete. If I play tennis against anybody, any elite athlete, regardless of gender, I'm going to get smoked. 100%. Any elite athlete, basketball, I will get smoked. I am not an athlete, and I also am aware of that. Yes, exactly.
    49:21
    And that's what I'm saying, though. It doesn't matter about gender. It doesn't matter. Like you shouldn't disrespect someone for, for something that they have trained in a high level competitive state, manufacturing state. It doesn't matter. Like it just, I don't know. This guy just, like I said, he was too much, too much, too much. And your games suck. Like they're not my cup of tea, which guess what? I play pinball. So it's not for me. It's, it's probably not for me too. yeah it's not and it's not for all my friends that are in pinball that they play pinball because of either it's casually going through the exploration of the game because they want to see the depth of the game and experience the feeling and the story and be immersed in that world or the people are playing for score guess what none of it's geared towards you it does seem bizarre though because it's not like you find pinball machines in the 7-eleven anymore yeah you have to seek out pinball They're either at bars that cater to pinball or you're at home environment. Those are really the two. Occasionally you get like a like a.
    50:30
    What am I what am I trying to say? Like a collect like the, you know, the pinball collective or something where you pay 10 bucks and you go and you play as much as you want. You know, but still, that's a very that's a you're catering to a specific crowd. Yeah. People aren't going to bump into a pinball machine unless they want it. I agree. I like to keep things positive on the podcast. So I think this is probably the last time I talk about Haggis because it just gets under my skin. Or not Haggis. Sorry, the last time I talked about Home Pin. Sorry, Haggis. I apologize. Yeah.
    51:01
    You're nowhere near Home Pin. Okay, I will say I will keep it positive. I am positive that I'm not interested in these products. I like that attitude. I did find it interesting, though, as I was at the Hall of Fame, I'm going to give a quick review of that. Okay. that he had all of Home Pin's games, but he only had one Jersey Jack, which was Hobbit.
    51:22
    He did have a good amount of Sterns. There's a lot of Sterns. A lot of Sterns there. But it's like he didn't have any American games. He didn't have... It's kind of weird that he doesn't have these games in the Pinball Hall of Fame. It's an interesting location. It feels very kind of a mix of... a flea market where there's these games that are functional adjacent yeah but they're not you know a lot there's a lot of things that are off and i'm i'm hoping that they could change their philosophy and maybe hire two or three full-time uh techs that just go through and make sure everything's ship shape but it's difficult to uh the way it's currently being managed to anticipate a long-term viability of it i agree and and tim arnold is getting up there in ah maybe he will sell it soon i don't know you know that was that was the problem about the pinball hall of fame is i got there the new location is amazing it's it's great where it's located right there right next to the airport so when you're pulling in the biggest thing you see from your airplane is the pinball yeah at least half the games were turned off yeah and i that just shows a staffing issue yeah like you're not there are people that are not being hired and paid a wage to maintain the games the biggest attraction in my opinion that's there is pinball circus if you're not aware of pinball circus there's been one it's been two there's two is there two or I thought there was three. I thought there was two. I thought there was one there and then one in a private collection. But it is also still a gimmick game. It is a gimmick game. I played it once, and I got to through the mouth of the clown at the top. The last two or three times I've been there, it's actually been down. Yeah. Was it down? It's still down now. It was down a couple weeks ago from what I saw on Facebook.
    53:28
    Going Nuts, which there's only been 10 in the world of those ever made, that one was down. I mean, a lot of games are shut off. And here's the thing. It is a 501c3, by the way. It is – it's not a business business. It is kind of a charity-type thing. Yeah. But maybe they need to transition. Maybe they need to transition to more of a for-profit enterprise. Well, and here's the thing, too, is, like, you can go in there. I know that, like, people get ticked off when these games are turned off. but you're not paying an entrance fee. Yeah. It was cool to kind of go through and see some of the history there. And then Tim's got at least 200 games set up. Oh yeah. There's a lot. There is a ton of games in there and there's arcade games and bubble hockey. And like I said, there's really, I know that people complain that like, well, this place just sucks. Cause you know, half the games are off. They had a lot of sterns that were on a lot of newer sterns. I mean, they had four Foo Fighters. they've got batman 66 they've got black knight i mean they just they had a lot of games there and so i didn't feel ripped off because i'm like well granted i've been in this hobby for over or almost a decade now a lot of those games that were turned off i just was like oh like i'm not playing black knight 2000 today right it's just you know and but i get it i get it like we had on martin gonzalez and he's like it just stinks when you're new into this hobby you're so excited and you finally find a place that has that game and you get there and it's turned off because it's broken. So I do feel for those people that specifically go to the Pinball Hall of Fame and their game's turned off that they wanted to play. I would say that it has the most name recognition. Of all the destination locations, people at least would recognize or know that. A lot of people ask me, hey, have you been to the Pinball Hall of Fame? Because they went to Vegas and they saw a big sign.
    55:30
    But there are There are definitely other places that are more well-maintained, and that's not really a knock on Tim. I hope that the business philosophy adjusts for what the demand is. I do find it interesting that there was one thing that kind of almost gave me a heart attack. As we were pulling out, we thought we saw a cat up on the Pinball Hall of Fame sign pretty far up. It was on the letter B. And so we stopped. We got out to see what we could do. And we realized it's a fake cat that they've put on the letter B for some odd reason just to hang out up there. It's like the size of an actual cat. It's not like something that's – Oh, wow. Okay. I took a picture because I was like, what the heck? But yeah.
    56:18
    Overall, like I said, Pinball Hall of Fame, if you're in Vegas, you have some time to kill. I still recommend it. There's still some great games there. I still go. there's a lot of good history there just just know don't be as disappointed whatever happened to they built that place it wasn't like a year later that they were they said that part of their property was encroaching on another property didn't say that i think that that was a post that they said it it was they they missed it by like nine feet or something like that i i i don't know everything around that place though has been demolished it's literally just the pinball hall of fame right there now so it's and now i will say it's not also the best part of the strip like we walked there after a football game and we decided this wasn't the best idea yeah so that's just it's not it's not terrible but i would just drive i mean the parking lot's fine definitely so all right let's move on to what else we got on this list and we got a couple minutes left.
    57:18
    We got Queen. Queen dropped their price. They were originally $92.99. They've dropped it to $89.99. Why do you think that is, Scott?
    57:30
    I think it's to get below a certain price point to help move things. I agree. Queen is a better integration than some of the dream themes that we have seen and we've talked about it's still not a game that i would be interested in buying i agree just because i have other alternatives that i enjoy playing more and that's what it comes down to yeah uh so it it's a smart move if you want to try that psychology though of well it's technically under nine thousand dollars yes absolutely no and they do that all the time they do that with gas what do they say hey gas is 359.99 yeah yeah of course and nothing's 100 it's 99.95 exactly so so yeah so there is that i didn't even tell you i was in vegas yeah i went down there to the punk rock museum that just opened up i don't know if any of you like punk rock out there but it goes from the decades of the 60s when it first was introduced all the way up through to now uh it seems like it kind of stalls out around the mid-2000s late 2000s nothing wrong with that but it was really cool i got a guided tour with dave bash of some 41 that is a pinball machine i would like to have just throwing that out there but yeah it was it was a really amazing experience and i'd highly recommend the guided tour hanging out with two and a half hours the guy that inspired me to pick up the guitar so it was cool to have uh it was very i mean the group was small and we had maybe 10 people in our group and it was just seeing the history of like the ramones and they had their jackets there and and black flag and just all those old school punk rock bands it was really weird though to see flea from red hot chili peppers he was a band called fear that was a punk rock band before red hot chili peppers and his stuff was in there for them but not for red hot chili peppers there's that well red hot's more of a funk band but yeah true but they did have some punk elements to them but it was funny because like motorhead was in there one of the people was trying to like argue they're not really punk rock and i'm like have you listened to ace of spades like it's high octane yeah vocals are grungy like it's just it's punk to me I guess so anyhow I highly recommend it if you're in Vegas check out they have different people from different bands the schedule is about a month out in advance you can just check it out on their website definitely go to the Punk Rock Museum if that is your cup of tea yeah a lot of people were shocked like Billy Idol was in the Punk Rock Hall of Fame Blondie and Joan Jets and the Blackhearts yeah they are Yeah, they're punk.
    60:24
    Rumors are revving up. End of this month, 23rd, Comic-Con starts up, and Stern supposedly has a booth at Comic-Con along with the artist of – Is Ozzy going to be there again? I think Ozzy, something like that. I don't know. You can check out all the details on that. I am going to clarify some things that some people have said. they said that Todd McFarlane invented Venom. Okay, that's not true. Venom's actually been a character in Marvel for a long time. But Todd McFarlane got his name out there for being a Spider-Man artist. Yeah. And he did the Spider-Man comic. He actually got his own comic book that was named just Spider-Man because his art sells. yeah and so i obviously he knows how to draw spiders he knows how to draw spider-man characters including venom and so that definitely makes sense because he left marvel to make spawn that's actually spawn is his own property so that's that's where that came from he actually left with the creator of deadpool rob lyfield they actually went and started image comment image comics comics okay i that was right back in the 90s when comics were had a huge rise in collectability yeah i think it's it's tapered down a lot since then yeah but yeah and obviously he's he's involved in the project because there's zero reason why todd mcfarland should be there unless he's associated with a Stern release, their only Stern release. It's the worst-kept secret, Venom. And obviously, Ozzy's going to be involved because there's no other reason why Ozzy would have been there last year. So there has been rumors that this isn't actually Venom, that the next release is a remake.
    62:28
    I just have a hard time believing that there's going to be a remake in between now and a Venom release. They obviously pushed Venom back for some reason. Yeah. So I'm not sure why, because it takes a long time to schedule people who have a very full schedule, including Ozzy Osbourne. Yeah. And so something significant must have happened to readjust the schedule.
    62:59
    We'll have to ask when it finally comes out and see if we can get anything. If we can get anything, because a lot of times they just don't share. But maybe it's obviously stuff beyond their control. It's the same thing as when we talked about, well, Stern apparently dropped the ball when it comes to Harry Potter.
    63:17
    Well, okay, maybe. But I always ask, what do they know that we don't know? And what were some conditions or some situations that they thought may not work for their business? because it's a business decision. So obviously something that wasn't working for the timeline is why they pushed it back. But they pushed it back to release in the comic book venue, you know, Comic-Con.
    63:51
    Well, and so the rumors are right now there's a Cornerstone at the end of this month and then there's another game looking to be released in December and they're speculating because George Gomez said there's only two Cornerstones coming out this year, shipping this year. Yeah.
    64:11
    And so a lot of people are speculating in December it is a remake. As far as rumors go, I'm trying to think of how much we can say here, but my understanding, there will be something shown in December, but not ship Patel to be next year. And that's not uncommon. No, it's not uncommon for them to, to release. And they have done that before, but that means you could still technically have three cornerstones this year, but only it'd be two because you're technically showing the third one in December. Does that make sense? Do you think that George cares at all about timelines?
    64:56
    Oh, you know, he is tied to it. Sticking to two releases versus three releases. He's 100% tied to it. Yeah. And it's almost like they sacrificed their firstborn on this promise that they're only going to – basically, he was talking that they are modifying their production schedule because of manufacturing issues. This wasn't design issues. This was manufacturing issues that they were having. So if they start – there's no switch that says, okay, so we can only do two this year. Now let's crank it up and do three next year. If the lag time was four months between schedule and it was six months and now they dropped it to five months, sure, fine. I also don't understand why Rush doesn't seem to be on the manufacturing anymore there seems to be still a lot of demand for Rush so I don't understand that but I wouldn't be surprised if they released it because who cares about an interview he did he throws out things like yeah we're probably going to remake Stranger Things and then they had to come out and say we're not planning on doing that right now but it's a good idea yeah well what's funny too is like he announced last year and it weirds me out because we focus on such the weirdest things and we announced this last year like i'm surprised nap arcade hasn't ran this or you can go back and watch the footage but george gomez announced last year a spike three was coming soon yeah you know well of course but of course it is it's like saying nintendo saying hey we have the next console in development i agree but it's not as it's not as appealing like i don't know it just makes me chuckle some of the stuff that we focus on but do you think it's been five years since we've had a vault the last vault that's ever happened was star trek and they called it like the final voyage right yeah and and it's been five years do you really think we get a vault because i keep hearing that we're going to get a vault at some point in time I see. I don't know. OK, so let's walk through the reasons for a vault. So why typically do they make vaults to fill a gap in the line, fill a gap in the line? OK, have there been any gaps? No. So that's my first question. It's like, okay, a vault. Why would you do it? Do you need to throw out 100 of these now? How much development do you have to do to make a vault viable? If you go back to something like Tron, which has a lot of demand out there, that would be a pretty easy one to vault. Because I don't think you have to do much to change Tron out there. I agree so that would be something quick and easy and you could probably spit out 500 to 1000 of them quite easily once you start getting farther back there's going to be questions okay Metallica is kind of in that same era if you want to do a Metallica one but they also made a billion Metallica games out there we're hearing that the vault is Metallica other people are saying it's like Stranger Things I think Stranger Things seems more likely. I agree. Because they cut it so short because of the lukewarm reception.
    68:38
    And it's still pretty similar to Attack from Mars, which is a well-received game. So it's not surprising that Stranger Things turned out to be a fun game too. Yeah.
    68:51
    So you could do that. Metallica, I don't know. I'm still skeptical on the Metallica rumor because – But you know what's funny about that rumor? Because do you remember this? We had a listener of the show reach out. We did. And ask, like, do you know what the next vault is? And I'm like, we don't have a clue. No, I do. We don't. But the interesting part is they were claiming that someone that they knew that worked for Stern had told them Metallica was the next vault. and because of the price that Metallica's were going for, he should sell his Metallica so that way he could – And I think that we said that that was – I actually said, yeah, you should sell because you can get a crazy price for it Yeah But the so yeah you could do so the easy ones that you can make and you can make Stranger Things you can make Metallica because there still people will still buy Metallica But Tron I think makes a lot more sense. But you need to look at license availability. Like Stranger Things is still going on. Yeah. Tron is kind of dead in the water right now except for they have the new light cycle ride at Disneyland. Yeah. So that's the only reason why. There's a new Tron movie coming out, though. Is that because it's been in development for a long time? Is it actually going forward? It got the green light. I think it releases here the next year or two. Really? Yeah. It was finally greenlit. Okay. Now you're going to be looking. I am looking it up. So because I mean, there was like. Like you said, though, does it make sense to vault a game right now when the whole line, especially where they're moving factory and you've got two possibly three cornerstones this year and lineup wise tron aries are you kidding me 2025 see okay okay does it make sense so between a mute move jared leto you have venom okay rumored coming out the end of the month yeah and then do you really have time for a vault and if eddie's next yeah and danger was last yeah and borg was before that that means l1 is up to bat do you really want to release a vault and then release an l1 like okay maybe that may that's the reason to have a vault come out because it's like well if we release an l1 there's no reason to release a vault for the next at least eight months. Okay, so this actually gets into we've heard there are a lot of people who are really excited for the release, the announcement in December, January. Okay? Yes. We've heard people are like, this is going to be big. I'm super excited.
    71:37
    Okay. I've said this before. What's the one license right now that would sell a billion games and is could go any in any family arcade would have this thing and it just released a movie that made billions super mario brothers absolutely like like if you have the choice of doing harry potter or super mario brothers right now you would do super mario brothers you would because if they are super excited and so confident to say well what do you want to do so I actually texted Zach and I said hey I know this is my total speculation but if Elwin is doing Super Mario Brothers I want an LE it would sell a boatload yeah I'd want an LE as well and I don't believe in LEs Yeah, no question whatsoever. They want to leave the house. Yeah, would you – Vault is the floor. So like what is the advantage of doing a vault other than just like, hey, you can sell more games. Guess what? You can sell more games of Rush. You can sell more games of Foo Fighters. You can sell more games of almost anything that you are making right now. Yeah. So why muddy the water or even complicate things to even go after these extra things?
    73:03
    It's true. I would be very surprised if it's a vault. I really would. And this is me just talking like I'm trying to look at it from – I would love vaults. Like the vaults, if you made a Lord of the Rings vault, I would have to buy one. How about this? Let's say it is Venom in two weeks, but it's a vault. It's a remake. Of what? Of Spider-Man.
    73:30
    You'd be getting your vault plus your cornerstone kind of thing. it's like batman 66 i would be i would be shocked yeah okay but i would be shocked because they already did a comic version of spider-man vault yeah and they didn't do an update with the dnd or with a with an lcd yeah but why i mean why it's okay that that would be definitely playing we're we're going through the uh the wormhole on that one i agree with you though Super Mario Brothers, and it was funny because I can't remember which... I listened to the Pinball Show. Sure. And they went over this, being Super Mario Brothers, the likelihood of it not being made because Nintendo owns the license and they own arcade games, and if they were going to make it, they'd make it themselves. I think right now... No. I think right now... Nintendo didn't make the movie. No, they didn't. But that's the thing. nintendo is getting more and more loose with their licenses it used to be they used to did you know there was an adult film made of the super mario brothers in the 80s and nintendo did not want it distributed so they bought up the rights to it to shut it down that's how tight they were with their licenses which wow they wanted they had an image they didn't want to maintain i don't i don't blame it if you're going family friendly you want to maintain that image but my point being is this if you've ever played a cadence of hyrule that is based off of a rhythm action game they did it i have no idea what you just said it is if you haven't checked out this game it is amazing it is top down old school zelda what's a rhythm action game it started it started its own genre so it's top down zelda right like remember link to the past or okay but link to the past that was zelda 2 and so you had a side scroll in that was zelda 4 no no no uh sorry adventures of link what the adventure of link was zelda 2 yeah so that's the one with like a top down and then it had a side scrolling thing yeah it was a weird correct yeah so i'm talking linked past that was on the super nintendo okay yeah so link to the past so imagine that but there's music playing and you move on the beat to get your combo higher like a dance dance revolution kind of but you're still playing but i don't know how to exactly explain this you're moving on the beat and you get rewarded for being on the beat you're still playing zelda but you're you're moving to the rhythm of the music it sounds kind of goofy but nintendo took a chance because this was also this the original game was called crypt of the necrodancer and they took a chance and said okay we will give you the assets for zelda which is arguably their biggest selling license at the moment was selling it's the fastest selling game for modern game right now like it it blew away God of War, it blew away Pokemon.
    76:40
    Zelda's Tears of the Kingdom has just demolished everything in its path. I believe that. Zelda's is pretty big, right? So why would they benefit at all by making a random sub-genre game that has no blip on the map, besides the fact that they're taking trust of this company, this indie company, and saying, hey, you can use our product. If you make a good product, we'll release it. They're doing that more and more. so why wouldn't they let stern make a pinball machine they want the quality right they don't and if you don't start with green quality yeah if you want volume if you want quality you're you would approach stern yeah and so that's why like i think nintendo the only games they really produce arcade wise is the mario kart games like last time you went to an arcade which why have you seen in there from nintendo it's always mario kart for me because that's their top-selling arcade game.
    77:35
    So I can understand if it was Mario Kart. It's all raw thrills. True. But I would understand if it was Mario Kart, but this is Super Mario Bros. Yeah. I still would die on the they should do it. I guess I'll put it that way. 100%. If they haven't considered it, they should do it. It would be arguably the best selling modern game by far. Yeah. Um, I guarantee that Godzilla holds that right now. I know we don't have numbers, but based off, they're still selling a boatload of those based off the runs and based off what we know, how much they make a week, which you can take the math. We're, we're going to do public math right now, right? Ellie's they make how many Ellie's they make a thousand now, right? They make a thousand thousand and they're able to pump out Ellie's. LEs, it takes two weeks to pump out all the LEs, and that's still with other lines running other games. You're running probably about 1,000 games, if not more, a week. You times that by four, that's 4,000 games a month. Times that by 12, they're roughly putting out about 48,000 games a year. And if you're doing two to three to four runs of Godzilla a year,
    78:52
    I mean, it's not hard to make the math really quick. You know what I'm saying? you're at least, the very least double digits in Godzilla right now. Godzilla certainly has the opportunity to I don't want to say eclipse, but basically set a new benchmark for a modern game. Sorry, I said that wrong. Not double digits, five figures. I bet you they're over 10,000 right now. Yeah, but that's what I'm saying.
    79:18
    And who knows? Maybe Stern would announce if they ended up starting knocking on that 15 000 20 000 mark i think they should if so here's the thing so we we've been talking about you know we talked about spirit 76 and which did not have more than adam's family i found that out but i have been looking i found rock ola which used to be the old jukebox company they made pinball machines back in the 30s they have one called world no sorry not world series world series is up there it has 50 000 units made yeah but but jigsaw has over 70 000 units made produced and so that that's pretty insane but then again the game was half the size no flippers right you have to take a lot into account but my point being is cheaper you know we always talk about these numbers and anywho it's a i will say it's the same as athletes like i really hate when people talk about greatest of all time, I'm, I say it, it really doesn't fit. You have to say greatest of their era, because in that era, it's a different game than what it was 10 years ago, 20 years ago, 30 years ago. And so they're competing against, they are there. The genetic equals in athletic talent. Yeah. And they surpassed all of the people of their generation. So that's why it doesn't really translate from like the 1950s basketball to now. Just wouldn't do it. Well, and technique and everything has changed since then too. The bar has been changed. The rules have been changed. And if you're going to go LeBron, Jordan, I'm still going to pick Jordan over LeBron. Oh, I would. That's just me. I would also consider Bill Russell. Bill Russell has 11. But it was a different game and a different era. Like our boy John Stockton from the Utah Jazz. He holds so many records, and a lot of those records will never be broken. I don't mind. Zero rings. But I would not fight you in saying that John Stockton was the greatest of his time. Because he still holds those records that haven't been broken. And they even said like for LeBron to break his stealing record, it would still take like every game, playing every game, getting like 20 steals per game for the next seven seasons or something like that. It's insane. If you've never checked out John Stockton's stats, they are insane. He missed 38 games over 12 seasons. Yeah, the guy was a machine. I will say I loved when Jokic was told that he had like a crazy amount of triple doubles. and he asked, he's like, how many did Shaq have? And I think he was legitimately asking. Yeah. And Shaq had such a great line. He's like, well, big honey, I never passed the ball.
    82:26
    That's great. I will agree, though, that Lionel Messi is probably one of the goats right now. That's true. And you could argue that. I'm just saying that, you know, the greatest of the era. So right now, I would say the greatest of the era is probably Godzilla for the foreseeable past because it found the secret sauce of being accessible to entry-level players and elite players. Yep. it's it's definitely the game that has raised the bar for the whole industry and hopefully influences pinball for generations to come because i think that this is the right direction it's weird to play godzilla and then like i got iron maiden and iron man's a great game but it's it's interesting to see how polished and in-depth godzilla is i'm not saying that iron maiden isn't but like i owned guardians and guardians was a good game don't get me wrong but you can feel the transition. Oh, yeah. And Guardians and Godzilla are not even five years apart. Yeah. And the funny thing is I'm looking at your screen, and three of the four games I can see are L1 games. Yeah. And I do have the Ninja Turtles Arcade here. I saw that. And Foo Fighters is going in at Spot, which comes this month. But even then, it's like Foo Fighters leave if L1 does release another game by the end of the year. it's just i i find that l1 games are the best for the home environment don't get me wrong i appreciate deadpool i appreciate guardians i appreciate mandalorian but i would rather play those on location and go enjoy them on location and spend the money have the headache of do i sell this when do i sell it now i'm selling it i'm getting lowballed because someone's offering me half that person's never going to get let down you know that like i have a family crisis can you take like $500 off? Yeah. My mother's dying. Can you take like $1,500 off? Okay, true story. That actually happened. That happened. It was just unbelievable.
    84:33
    Yeah, so awesome. Let's end it on that note. Big fan of Godzilla. Yeah. Okay, but you did put something in here that I do want to talk about. Okay, let's go for it really quick. Stern has the Masters of the Universe license. yeah that's what that's what nap arcade jason nap has been on fire lately dude like where do you get these rumors and it's funny because i had a good or bad thing good why not ish maybe like okay i i do better or worse than ninja turtles because it's the same era it's 80s cartoons the same era i would say that the turtles have more current cool cachet some relevance yeah i did surprisingly i was on call over the weekend and this is even before the rumor came out i actually watched the show that kevin smith did on netflix okay okay and it was interesting and i i saw wow this feels very much like the the cartoon but better than i watched as a kid yeah okay and i was like okay well this is it's actually really well done and i even had like the action figures as a kid you know and i had castle gray skull and all that i i don't know i it's it's not a theme that i connect with anymore yeah and so like turtles i can still kind of like okay like it takes me back this one it just feels like that was an era that for a couple of years it was really big and they sold a lot of toys and then everybody moved on and it's funny because i don't think he-man's still relevant but for some odd reason skeletor is there's so many skeletor memes and like well it's usually the laughing meme yeah yeah yeah or the like highly like weird philosophy memes yeah i don't know so i agree with you i don't if they make it i think there are i think it will sell yeah to a certain demographic i also think there are other themes that would sell more on theme alone yeah yeah i agree so okay once once again i think i yeah i'm not much for a he-man game i'd have to i'd have to play it kind of thing Right, and to be fair, I said I'm not interested in the Godzilla theme, and I still am not. It's not a theme that I love, but it's a fun campy theme that has worked out fabulously. You know what's funny is we did a joke. So the second interview we did with Keith, was it second or third? Yeah. We floated it out there, like what would be the worst theme for pinball. Right. Because we didn't tell anyone that L1 was coming on, and we got some of the funniest themes, and we read them off to L1, and some of them include C-SPAN, the government general that watches Congress.
    87:40
    And he picked out Laundry Day and started explaining the mechs he would put in there. And the rules. and we were kind of blown away and what's funny is we actually have people that still message us to this day that say we would actually like a Laundry Day pinball if L1 was making it he is what's the fairy tale where they spin straw into gold Godzilla is the perfect example of spinning straw into gold and it's alchemy so because Godzilla, you gotta admit, it was not Godzilla was a C-list maybe D-list theme. Because even the new movies have been fun.
    88:26
    They're a popcorn movie. I'm glad they actually went with the campy rubber suit fighting guys. Which, by the way, if you're looking to make a new pinball machine apparently Alien is the new meta too. You've got Aliens and Godzilla, you've got Aliens and Foo Fighters, You've got Galactotank for about aliens. You got space hunts about aliens. You've got, you know what I'm saying? Like really Godfather is the only one that stepped out of that equation at this point. Okay. What it reminds me though. Do you remember that the kids show bolt when the pigeons come up? Yes. Hey, we, we got a great idea. Okay. Wait for it. Aliens. Oh snap.
    89:09
    Aliens. Yeah. There it is. And then they show at the end of the, yeah. aliens show up yeah aliens show up and adopt the girl and they drop the tv realistic yeah yep oh that's okay that's a great note to end we're gonna end it there if you want to get a hold of us we are loser kid pinball podcast at gmail.com we're also on the socials uh facebook twitter twitch tiktok which we have not released a video on there youtube i know we i figure we get the name all at loser kid pinball so if you want to find us follow us that way or just shoot us a message on messenger between josh roop or scott larson if you're not friends with a bunch of pinball people it might be a little bit harder to find us because scott larson's kind of a generic name josh roop isn't it's not roop is is very different but yeah get a hold of us that way give us the last thought scott you know what i am super excited and please stern make super mario brothers work i am a monster and i have the power i'll turn you into a slave and a coward I am a half man I'm half a machine Shoot for the empire Shoot for the queen Wake up and go You can believe me When I'm telling a lie Oh, it's the sign of the devil Oh, that's a sign of the time The sound of the sirens And the ringing of bells You're gonna be the one to lead It never ends well
    91:47
    Break a back door Begin the Morbium Attack.