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BDYETP 55: Led Zeppelin Pinball Revealed + Topper Talk!

Bro, Do you Even Talk Pinball·podcast_episode·1h 5m·analyzed·Dec 20, 2020
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Analysis

claude-haiku-4-5-20251001 · $0.033

TL;DR

Led Zeppelin pinball art criticized but hosts predict gameplay will win fans over, citing pattern from prior Ritchie releases.

Summary

Nick Lane and Kevin Manning discuss Stern's newly announced Led Zeppelin pinball machine, focusing heavily on criticism of the game's artwork and cabinet design. They compare the Led Zeppelin reveal to previous Steve Ritchie releases (ACDC, Star Trek, Game of Thrones) where initial negative reactions to art and layout eventually gave way to strong gameplay appreciation. The hosts also introduce a new segment called 'Topper Talk' featuring Andrew Gorin.

Key Claims

  • Led Zeppelin pricing: $61.99 Pro, $77.99 Premium, $91.99 LE — $100 increase from Ninja Turtles, same as Avengers, $200 more than Jurassic Park at launch

    high confidence · Kevin provides MSRP figures directly on-air

  • Steve Ritchie has been designing pinball machines since 1979, starting with Superman at Atari, and is known as 'the King of Flow'

    high confidence · Nick Lane discusses Ritchie's history and design philosophy

  • Tim Sexton is the lead rules coder on Led Zeppelin, his second lead rules role after Black Knight: Sword of Rage

    high confidence · Kevin states Sexton's involvement with Led Zeppelin rules

  • Led Zeppelin cabinet artwork reuses the same limited assets (band symbols, airships, Icarus figure) repeatedly across the Pro and Premium models

    high confidence · Kevin and Nick analyze a Pinside post by user 'Coop' detailing repetitive asset placement

  • ACDC, despite initial negative reactions to art ('Facey-DC'), became potentially Stern's best-selling game ever

    high confidence · Nick describes the historical pattern of initial art criticism followed by strong game adoption

  • Led Zeppelin licensing restrictions likely prevented more creative custom artwork compared to Guns N' Roses, which had creative freedom under Slash's involvement

    medium confidence · Kevin and Nick speculate about licensing constraints vs. the Guns Guns N' Roses (CE) approach

  • Led Zeppelin cabinet colors (orange/blue) coordinate better with the playfield than the Pro and Premium models

    high confidence · Kevin and Nick compare cabinet artwork cohesion across the three tiers

  • Led Zeppelin art is better than Game of Thrones, ACDC, and Star Wars but not as good as hand-drawn art on Metallica or Aerosmith

    high confidence · Nick compares Led Zeppelin to other Steve Ritchie releases from recent years

Notable Quotes

  • “give me some fucking rock music right like give me that that's something i can get pumped up and excited about and music pins and pinball just seems to be a a really fun combination”

    Nick Lane @ ~17:00 — Explains Lane's enthusiasm for Led Zeppelin theme over other announced games like TMNT and Avengers

  • “it's so lazy if you look at a a game like i don't know metallica like the le is themed after master of puppets but it's not just the master of puppets cabinet art or uh album art slapped on the cabinet it's dirty donnie redrawing it making it fit the space”

    [name withheld pending review] @ ~33:00 — Criticizes Led Zeppelin's approach to art by contrasting with Metallica's custom hand-drawn treatment

  • “the redundancy i'm seeing snuffs out the enchantment you might encounter when slowly pouring over the artwork of a game”

    Pinside user 'Coop' (quoted by Kevin) @ ~42:00 — Professional critique of repetitive asset usage across the playfield and cabinet

  • “it's only in the last six that we've got real like good hand-drawn artwork that people were clamoring for like this play field in terms of all the other 14 years is at least as good as most of them if not better than a lot of them”

    Nick Lane @ ~60:00 — Provides historical context that Led Zeppelin art compares favorably to most Stern releases pre-2014

  • “is this the only way we get a Led Zeppelin machine? Is it better to have this and no Led Zeppelin machine or to have tried to hold out or get something that is not possible to get?”

    [name withheld pending review] @ ~70:00 — Articulates the licensing compromise trade-off: restricted art vs. no machine at all

  • “over time we play it more, we fall in love with the gameplay and you can start to overlook the art”

    [name withheld pending review] @ ~75:00 — Explains the pattern of initial art criticism giving way to gameplay appreciation

  • “I've seen this movie many times in the last eight years... Because I've seen this before, and it's a very boring movie because it just happens all too often”

Entities

Led ZeppelingameSteve RitchiepersonTim SextonpersonNick Laneperson[name withheld pending review]personAndrew GorinpersonStern PinballcompanyACDC

Signals

  • ?

    announcement: Stern officially announced Led Zeppelin pinball machine, teased last Friday, full reveal Monday/Tuesday with pictures and videos. This is Stern's final release of 2020.

    high · Kevin states 'teased it last friday announced it monday or tuesday with pictures and videos and stuff like that'

  • ?

    product_concern: Led Zeppelin received widespread community criticism for repetitive, lazy artwork design. The same assets (band symbols, airships, Icarus figure) are reused across cabinet and playfield. Cabinet art clashes with playfield colors on Pro/Premium models.

    high · Kevin reads Pinside post detailing multiple instances of airship and symbol repetition; Nick calls art 'lazy' and says 'we're going to see them all over this pinball machine'

  • ?

    design_philosophy: Led Zeppelin artwork appears heavily constrained by restrictive licensing. The game received limited assets to work with, forcing reuse over creative reimagining. Contrast to Guns N' Roses where Slash provided creative freedom.

    medium · Kevin notes 'We don't know what they're licensing' and speculates restrictive licenses force this approach; Coop's post mentions 'assets they provided were extremely limited'

  • ?

    product_strategy: Led Zeppelin pricing: Pro $6,199, Premium $7,799, LE $9,199. This is $100 increase from Ninja Turtles (May), same as Avengers tier pricing, $200 above Jurassic Park launch MSRP.

    high · Kevin provides exact MSRP figures and historical comparison to other Stern releases

  • ~

    sentiment_shift: Community sentiment cycle detected across Steve Ritchie releases: initial negative reaction to art/layout (ACDC, Star Trek, Game of Thrones, Led Zeppelin) → game releases → strong gameplay adoption and sales success. Nick and Kevin characterize this as a repetitive, predictable pattern.

Transcript

groq_whisper · $0.196

0:00
Right. Coming up on this bonus, bro, do you even talk pinball episode? We're going to give our hot take of Stern's newest pinball machine, Led Zeppelin. And then Kevin and I have a heartfelt Christmas present to all of you for 2020. We've got a new segment called topper talk with our very own everybody's third favorite moderator for Buffalo pinball, Andrew Gorin, all that in and probably not much more coming right up.
0:30
I need a ramp. I need a loop. I want targets I can hit. I need the scoop. I need a double super jet mine in my life.
0:51
That's right. And now, the Hall & Oates of Pinball Podcasting, Nick Lane and Kevin Manning of Buffalo Pinball. Woo-boom-shakalaka! Good morning, everybody. What's going on? Welcome to episode 55.
1:11
55? Yeah, 55. No, it's bonus, though. It's bonus. It's not even official. We'll debate that. Scholars will debate this. I'm giving it a number, Dan. This is 55. You're making it official? In one month, yes. Oh, you're padding it. I see. But then we can have our 100th celebration. We've got to keep this ball rolling. Oh, shit. Otherwise, we'll never get it. All right. I see. All right. I'm with you. All right. So we're going to talk about Led Zeppelin because Stern, we had the teaser before our last episode, but we hadn't seen it yet.
1:38
And, you know, we're doing this over Skype and living around. At least we might as well crank out another episode here. So before we get into it, let's thank our partners. They deserve a thanks, right? they deserve it uh up first pin stadium uh makers of amazing in-cabinet led lighting to light up your pinball machine use your phone control and app to set it up exactly how bright or dim or subtle you want it um use coupon code buffalo to save 10 at pin stadium.com double danger they make sweet swag you can buy some there for get all your pinball gear over at double danger dd pinball.com save 15 with coupon code buffalo the mod couple pinball.com get some mods for your pinball machine make them look great get yourself a another if you don't have enough uh icarus characters in your lead zeppelin i'm sure they'll make another one that you can throw in there so the mod couple pinball.com if you want to buy uh lead zeppelin or any other pinball machine that uh they sell check out flip and out pinball.com flipping out pinball uh sellers of all sorts of pinball brand new pinball machines topper you can get your toppers you can get uh shooter rods you can get uh what else is there like uh art blades your your expression lighting systems all that stuff you can get that from zach over at flipping out uh pin side if you want to talk about led zeppelin and argue with other people about whether it's better than guns and roses or not you can do that over there pinside.com jersey jack jersey jack pinball.com if you want to meet guns and roses instead of a led zeppelin you get it from them. Jerseyjackpinball.com. PinballEDU. If you want to win a Led Zeppelin, you'll be able to do that from PinballEDU. If you're watching live, type exclamation point charity and chat for the link for their monthly raffle to benefit Spinner's Pinball Inclusive Arcade. Joe Said helping out kids with autism and families in need over there through pinball. Community Beer Works. Community Communitybeerworks.com for your community beer. They make beer. It's in Buffalo. When you're in Buffalo. If you live in Buffalo, you can get it now. When you're able to travel back to Buffalo, you should go to Community Beerworks and pick up some drinks. And play some pinball, maybe. If they still have pinball machines. I don't know if they do.

Nick Lane @ ~80:00 — Expresses fatigue with the predictable cycle of negative initial reaction → strong gameplay adoption

game
Star Trekgame
Game of Thronesgame
Metallicagame
Aerosmithgame
Guns N' Rosesgame
Deadpoolgame
Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtlesgame
The Avengersgame
Jurassic Parkgame
Black Knight: Sword of Ragegame
Jersey Jack Pinballcompany
Donny Gillies (Dirty Donny)person
Buffalo Pinballorganization
Pinsideorganization
Flip N Out Pinballcompany
Coopperson

high · Nick: 'I've seen this movie many times in the last eight years'; extensive discussion of ACDC/Star Trek trajectory from criticism to success

  • ?

    community_signal: Discord and Pinside communities heavily criticizing Led Zeppelin artwork, cabinet design, and playfield layout immediately upon reveal. Multiple users expressing strong negative reactions.

    high · Kevin: 'everyone's shitting on it and losing their minds'; Nick: 'I'm in our Discord, and it's in Pinside, and everyone's shitting on it'

  • ?

    gameplay_signal: Led Zeppelin exhibits Steve Ritchie's signature 'flow' design philosophy with flowy shots, limited toys, and familiar playfield layout. Kevin expects 'some flowy shots' and 'not a lot of toys' based on Ritchie's design patterns.

    medium · Kevin: 'it's gonna be some some flowy shots uh you know not a lot of uh toys'; Nick: 'Steve Ritchie and you know we talked about this a little bit in chat it's like Steve Ritchie just gets saddled with the worst art packages'

  • ?

    collector_signal: Kevin expresses conditional interest in Premium model but lists multiple barriers: rules quality unknown, timing (waiting until summer for code maturation), shipping delays, IFPA ranking requirement (no longer in top 1000). Art quality is a negative factor in purchase decision.

    medium · Kevin: 'stars would have to align... this game would have to be amazing rules wise' and notes $7,800 is a major investment

  • ?

    design_innovation: Hand-drawn artwork by artists like Dirty Donnie (Metallica, Aerosmith) represents significant design evolution in recent Stern games compared to earlier asset-based approaches. Led Zeppelin reverts to simpler asset reuse strategy.

    high · Extended discussion comparing Led Zeppelin unfavorably to Metallica/Aerosmith custom art; Nick notes 'in the last six that we've got real like good hand-drawn artwork'

  • ?

    historical_signal: Steve Ritchie's career trajectory: started at Atari (Superman, 1979) → designed iconic 1980s-90s machines (T2, High Speed, Black Knight) → left Stern 2008 → returned 2012 with ACDC → continues designing major licensed titles. Characterized as 'King of Flow' designer.

    high · Nick provides detailed Ritchie biography and credits multiple iconic machines

  • $

    market_signal: Stern premium tier pricing trending upward: Jurassic Park ~$5,999 (2019) → Ninja Turtles $6,699 (May 2020) → Led Zeppelin Premium $7,799 (Dec 2020). This represents significant YoY increases in premium model pricing.

    high · Kevin: 'it's up a hundred dollars from Ninja Turtles in May... up $200 from when I bought Jurassic Park last year'

  • ?

    personnel_signal: Tim Sexton assigned as lead rules coder for Led Zeppelin (second lead role after Black Knight: Sword of Rage). Previously worked on Deadpool rules. Represents ongoing designer development/retention at Stern.

    high · Kevin: 'Tim Sexton... this is Tim's first time the second game that he's been the lead rules coder on it'

  • ?

    content_signal: New podcast segment 'Topper Talk' debuting featuring Andrew Gorin as moderator. Described as 'Christmas present to all of you for 2020' by hosts, indicating community engagement initiative.

    high · Nick: 'Kevin and I have a heartfelt Christmas present to all of you for 2020. We've got a new segment called topper talk with our very own everybody's third favorite moderator for Buffalo pinball, Andrew Gorin'

    • 4:00
    TiltCycle.com. Dan Burfield back at it again with us here. The play field I have on my wall in front of me, the Atarians, is always the star of the show when it's behind me. You can get an awesome custom piece like that. He takes old pinball machine parts and upcycles them into amazing new art pieces. So check them out at TiltCycle.com.
    4:22
    Comet Pinball. If you want to replace those nasty old incandescent bulbs in your machine with some hot new LEDs. But they're not really hot. They're, like, cooler. You know what I mean? Because they save energy. They don't run as hot. CometPinball.com. They also have Nick Lane's favorite t-shirts in pinball. So you should get those there. And hoodies. They got hoodies now. So Pinball Mix, take your sound package that's in your mostly stern pinball machine and turn it into something amazing and unique just for you. You can take your music and put it in your pinball machine just how you want it. Use coupon code Buffalo to save 10% and get a free Easter egg at pinballmix.com. And our friends over at Titan Pinball, they got silicone rings to replace your rubber rings in your pinball machine. They also have cool low bounce flipper silicone rings. I was going to call them rubbers, but they're not rubbers. Skip Natty's a big fan. If he likes them, you're probably going to like them too. Use coupon code BUFFALO to save 10% over there at Titan. Thank you to all our sponsors. We couldn't do it without you. And thanks to everybody at home for tuning in. So, Nick. That was a good sponsor read. Thank you. I was impressed. I was thinking halfway through. I was like, Kevin's kind of on fire right now. Well, you know, it's morning. I'm feeling good. I've had my coffee.
    5:35
    That's right. Normally we do this podcast after, like, working a full work day. it's like eight o'clock at night so yeah you come home from work you're spending two hours setting everything up pulling everything in and then it's like oh crap i forgot something anyways and here we are we did it hop out of bed have a bagel have some coffee let's talk led zeppelin even you even make your own bagels don't you like an adult that's yeah that's pretty i'm not a millennial so i can do that some next level skills well gordon's not even a millennial he's a gen z i think so i think millennial shit on gen z years it all rolls downhill you know boomers gen x millennials gen z all the way down all right all right so let's shall we begin um i mean let's pull up some pictures uh that's not the picture i want to start with so it's it's saturday uh december 19th and this was dropped a few days ago this is this is this is fresh this game weren't they making it for a few years or it got held up or something like that You know the history behind it? Not really. I mean, it's been long rumored that it was coming, but I don't know the behind-the-scenes history. So if for some reason you live under a rock, this is Steve Ritchie Game, who Steve Ritchie's been in pinball back to the days of Jesus Christ. And he's known as the King of Flow. Steve has made some really iconic, not only games, but iconic designs into pinball. and in some ways has taken pinball to the next level throughout his career. Yeah, he started way back at Atari doing, I think, Superman was his first one in, like, 79, something like that, and he's been going all the way through the years. You might know, like, T2 and Firepower and High Speed, Black Knight, you know, really legendary pinball titles. ACDC, you know, the newer ones. he's been doing it a long time done a lot of great hits over the years for sure and then on rules is Tim Sexton and this is Tim's first time the second game that he's been the lead rules coder on it if I'm not mistaken I think he worked on Deadpool a little bit but Black Knight Sword of the Rage was his first where that's his baby and this is his second game so Led Zeppelin the latest from Stern Pinball their final release of 2020 um yeah so they announced it on well they teased it last friday announced it monday or tuesday with pictures and videos and stuff like that and then here we are today so here we are when so when the when the title got announced what did you think and did that change or not once we saw pictures of the game? Right. So, you know, I'm not – I wouldn't say I'm a Led Zeppelin fan, right? I don't – I never bought a CD. I never – I don't think I've ever put their music on in, you know, like Spotify, anything like that. But, like, when we talk about music pins, I know we're only going to get so many artists, the collective soul. I'm sorry, we're never going to get that. All three of you out there who follow the channel and agree with me, I'm sorry. gotta come and face reality it's not happening um but yeah i i i i like i can appreciate classic rock like so i was like that's a that's an artist i can get behind like i'm more excited for a music pin from leds up and then guns and roses like i have a hard time with with guns and roses now as a caveat and as i've said many times in the past like i never even thought i would like a metallica pin or metallica as a band you know then i get it and i play it and you know i think Stockholm Syndrome kicks in and I start appreciating their music. And, you know, lo and behold, I was at a Metallica concert years ago. So, you know, who knows how things progress and happen. But, again, I think as a music fan, with the title, just the theme alone of Led Zeppelin, I was positive towards that. Whereas, like, oh, if this is a good game, maybe I add it to my collection because I do like music fans. It's surprising to me because, like, it seems like out of all the machines that got announced or discussed this year, This was the one, for whatever reason, that really piqued your interest and that I heard you kind of get excited about. Well, let's think of the other ones, like Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles. Yeah, I mean, I watched the Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles when I was, you know, nine years old, right, when it was on in the 80s. And, you know, I had my cassette from Pizza Hut and I went to the movie theater when the movie came out and all that stuff. But, like, I'm not – I don't want a cartoon as an adult. I'm a bitter – my real age is probably 60. 70 year old old in in terms of anger and cynicism so i just it does nothing for me uh and then you have avengers which it's like all right i i'm not a comic book guy so again that doesn't do anything i don't need to watch a million movies about these comic book heroes like nothing nothing for me give me some fucking rock music right like give me that that's something i can get pumped up and excited about and music pins and pinball just seems to be a a really fun combination interesting okay so i don't know to me it's like led zeppelin is uh here we go another uh band from the 70s 80s it's a very tried and true uh formula it's a steve richie game we kind of know what we're gonna get with steve richie at this point it's gonna be some some flowy shots uh you know not a lot of uh toys you know it's it's gonna be a very familiar feel with a theme that like zeppelin like yeah i heard them on the radio like classic rock they were they were classic rock when guns and roses was new you know what i mean so it's it's like who cares like it's cool like i could like i it would never be a theme that i just on theme that i'd be like all right i'm gonna run and buy this um will it be fun to play on location i'm sure it'll be a great you know flowy flowy shots fast fun kind of game but it's not gonna be like oh my god take my money i need to have this right away um so and then seeing the pictures on monday so why don't we pull up some photos here um i was just kind of like what the hell did they do this art oh my god i was like this game looks terrible and i'm like so steve richie and you know we talked about this a little bit in chat it's like steve richie just gets saddled with the worst art packages for whatever reasons so you think about game of thrones uh led zeppelin i'm gonna throw in there um uh star wars also not good until they redid it with the comic book art um i don't know what it is he just doesn't care or it just happens to be the licenses that he gets i'm getting i'm guessing that's kind of it because game licenses like game of thrones led zeppelin um i don't know why acdc would have fallen under that but i don't know um uh star wars all probably very restrictive licenses where they go hey here's some assets put these on the pinball machine um where yeah the uh so it's if you're listening to the to the show the the cabinets are themed after led zeppelin albums which you think as led zeppelin fans would probably love that right it's iconic that's what you remember from the band etc etc but they're just taking the art from the pinball from the the the album and slapping it on the machine it's so lazy if you look at a a game like i don't know metallica like the le is themed after master of puppets but it's not just the master of puppets cabinet art or uh album art slapped on the cabinet it's dirty donnie redrawing it making it fit the space bringing in the iconic imagery of the album and then making it work for a pinball machine versus just like, here you go. It's a, so to me, yeah, this seems more like we have assets. These are the assets you're allowed to use. Hope you like the, the four symbols that represent Led Zeppelin and the, the Icarus character. Cause you're going to see them all over this pinball machine. Oh, and the, and the blimp. So that, that, that was my reaction to the art. It was not good. And I think a lot of folks had a similar reaction. What did you think about the art when you saw it?
    13:55
    Yeah, so, you know, the whole thing with Steve Ritchie, and like I said, I threw that into Discord. It's like, why does he always have the worst art, right? He seems to get the best themes, right? He seems to be like the designer. When the theme comes down the pipe, he either gets choice or he gets the best one. And maybe they just tend to be the most restrictive. so my my take i don't like the i don't like the pro you know maybe if i was leds up a fan that was my favorite um album or something i'd be fine with it i actually i'm fine with the the premium i saw it i like the iconic art of the iconic album art on it um and i have the art's gonna be subjective i have the the thought that sometimes it's kind of a simple art it doesn't It doesn't have to be drawn by, like, hand-drawn. It doesn't have to be. It could be something that's iconic and simple, and that can work.
    14:52
    And then, you know, the LE is whatever. I think the biggest thing about the art for me is that the cabinet artwork, at least on the Pro and the Premium, it just clashes with the playfield, right? It doesn't blend in well with it. Whereas on the LA, I think the colors work a little bit better. Like the colors are at least in coordination. So I think the LA looks the best because there seems to be some cohesion with that. Where like the other two, it's just sort of flash. And the premium model with the artwork from the first Led Zeppelin album,
    15:32
    it's black and white, right? But then you got this colorful play field. It doesn't work in that sense. but you know i don't i don't i didn't have such a strong negative reaction like everybody did and like i absolutely hate this is terrible i'm just sort of like okay it's not remarkable maybe maybe even at best maybe it gets the job done but it might even fall below that standard to me yeah i think of the three that probably the uh premium i think is the the most interesting I kind of like the black and white take on it. It's pretty dramatic looking The other two are I see what you saying about the LE and how it fits better with the play field especially the know the the orangey look um i got some uh some up close shots here so you got that the orange and blue kind of colors that match the outer look of the cabinet so yeah that one seems the most cohesive but i i was looking through pictures today i'm like what is up with this section of the play field right here that just looks like it's destroyed or something it's like intentionally um looks decayed or scuffed up or something like that. I was like, well, maybe if you just make it look like the play field's all chipping off, then you won't notice the chipping that's happening on the rest of the play field. Yeah, let's transition over. We'll start. So we kind of covered the cabinet. And you and I are both in agreement where I think we like the premium the best. And that's what I'm eyeing. Maybe I'll get it. I mean, again, it's got to satisfy all the conditions with the chipping issues, and we'll talk about that.
    17:11
    And God knows, I don't even know. how much is a premium delivery these days? Uh, I have, so, uh, MSRP on here is $61.99 for a pro, $77.99 for a premium, $91.99 for an LE. So, uh, yeah, that's up a hundred dollars from Ninja Turtles in May. It's the same price as, uh, um, Avengers.
    17:36
    And it's up $200 from when I bought Jurassic Park last year. So, yeah, I mean, I'd have to like, the stars would have to align. One, this game would have to be amazing rules wise. I'm not trying to get ahead of myself to, I'd be waiting until at least the summer to see how things develop and the shipping. Then three, I had to like get the, uh, IFPA deal by getting in the top 1000. I'm not even in anymore, not playing. So I don't, I don't know. We'll, we'll, we'll see, but let's talk about the play field. What were you talking about? That the, um, I didn't notice, I didn't notice what you're talking about. You said the play field looks scuffed up. See this whole, like, uh, this is white area i don't know if you can see my cursor on the stream or not but it's like above the right slingshot oh that's like the isn't that that's like the zeppelin exploding is it yeah that's like that's it that's the so that's the zeppelin on fire not exploding but on fire right yeah that's what that's what that is i'm just like oh that's gross looking i think it's a weird angle i'm gonna let me i have another angle on it yeah you can see it here that looks a little more uh more like what it's supposed to look like i don't think it would look bad in person honestly and that's not a bad photo of it i don't see i don't think the playfield's that bad i don't think it's that i don't think it's i don't think it's anything remarkable yeah it's just kind of this it screams to me like here's here's we have these four pictures of the band members and we have here's the zeppelin again let me i i have a uh I want to take you over to Pinside because we all love Pinside. There's a fantastic post that I want to refer to. This is great. Yeah, go ahead. Just read it. He says, I'm a creative director at an agency that works with the movie studios. We have these same kind of restrictions, limited assets, tough clients, and budget constraints. However, there's actually a way to work with clients in a manner where ultimately everybody gets what they want. This design signals to me that the assets they provided were extremely limited. Unfortunately, the solution was to simply reuse those assets over and over. the redundancy i'm seeing snuffs out the enchantment you might encounter when slowly pouring over the artwork of a game um so i want to jump ahead a little bit so he says on the premium i see two airships on the apron an airship on the playfield an airship on an insert a toy airship one airship on the back glass and a couple on the side art now i'm airship the fuck out at this point but there's more the iconic band symbols are above the coin door apron in playfield inserts and if that's not enough they have made a wallpaper out of the symbols and plastered that all over the art blades you can buy the custom shooter out if you want to go another round so it's again it's this one of the things that drives me nuts in pinball when they when the pinball art for me it's like oh you see the name tron on the topper and then it's on the back glass and it's the mod makers put it on the pop bumpers and then it's it's on the side blades And it's like, no, I get the name. You don't need to put the same thing a thousand times all over the pinball machine.
    20:33
    And, yeah, so I forget what brought us to this, but that post was very much like, yes, thank you. Somebody gets it. So, oh, we were talking about the play field. So, yeah. By the way, that post was made by a guy's name is or the gal's name is Coop. C-O-O-P. So just to get you requested. That was a really good post. I read it to you the other day. Yeah. um the same thing with the the Icarus you got Icarus here you got him on the pop-upers you got the the pop-up Icarus dude you got him on the LE art all over the place so um they had like five or six things to work with and then just put it around the play field and rearrange things and place them in and threw some color down in there that that was pretty much it that's that's what the play field looks like to me it doesn't look um I didn't have like a when I saw the Game of Thrones art, I was like, this is, I don't like this at all. I had more of that. That's worse. I would say the Game of Thrones art's worse than this. Agreed. Yeah. This is better than Game of Thrones. It's better than ACDC. Better than Star Wars. Yeah. So it's a little. Better than Star Wars, better than ACDC. This is maybe one of Steve Ritchie's best artworks that he had in the last 10 years. A ringing endorsement for this play field.
    21:41
    But yeah, it fits the era, right? It's got that kind of 70s vibe to it. But again, I would much rather see somebody like Dirty Donnie, like he did with Aerosmith, take the iconic imagery of the band and make it work for the art and the inserts and everything that are on the pinball machine. Make it fit the pin, you know what I mean? And have cool little stuff all over the place. Yeah. Well, let's be honest. Go ahead. Let's be honest. You think about the last 20 years of Stern, right? it's only in the last six that we've got real like good hand-drawn artwork that people were clamoring for like this play field in terms of all the other 14 years is at least as good as most of them if not better than a lot of them that's the that's the kind of funny thing to me like look at some fucking sopranos i think it's hideous right there's so look at world poker tour this is actually really good compared to everything else it's the the stern listen because people were just bitching endlessly and rightfully so about just the the crap layfield artwork so you know you've got like during donnie and metallica and that that was a game changer right you've got aerosmith and you you got deadpool you've got a lot of good examples so now when stern kind of puts out their you know i don't want to call basic but when they don't go and put out amazing artwork it just really is is glaring but you know if you've seen the artwork enough throughout the years you're like this this is before you like before you got amazing artwork it's just sort of it's the job done it's easier to pick it's easier what i'm trying to say is it's way easier to pick apart in 2020 then if this came out in 2010 people would be like yeah it's pretty good yep yeah no i agree it's just like over the past decade the level has been raised so much um you look at all the even like all the hand-drawn art on guns and roses looks amazing um they that was another game i thought of like the the guns and roses ce is themed after appetite for destruction so it's like that's the the concept that the cabinet but it doesn't just take the appetite for destruction artwork and throw it on the cabinet it's redrawn it's it brings it it has like the um the cross on the the head but the side is like from one of their the early versions of the album or something like that with the Dirty Robot and the other dude on it. So it's like fans of the band know that artwork, but it doesn't just have that art from the album slapped on the cabinet. It's reimagined, fits the cabinet, looks great. So I think there's a way to bring in that imagery, that visual style that the fans really want and do it in a better way. But again, like I mean, we don't know what they're licensing. I mean, with Guns N' Roses, Slash is behind it, as pointed out in the comments. And, like, they seem to have free range to do whatever they wanted with that pinball machine. Exactly. They were given the creative license. And we don't know the kind of restrictions that they had with Led Zeppelin. Maybe this is – maybe it could have been better in some ways, given the restrictions, as pointed out in that post. But, you know, how much better? Would it be better to the point where people aren't bitching about it on pin side and flipping out? I'm going to guess no, if I had to guess. because I mean, I think Stern gets it when it comes to art for the most part. So I guess the other question is, if you have a restricted license, is it even worth pursuing that license? Right, exactly. That was going to be my point. It's like, is this the only way we get a Led Zeppelin machine? Is it better to have this and no Led Zeppelin machine or to, you know, have tried to hold out or get something that is not possible to get? So, I mean, for the fans of the band, I've seen fans of the band say they don't want it, But, you know, I think over time you start to, the art, you start, it starts to fade away and it becomes more about the rules and the gameplay, right? Look at ACDC. It ended up becoming one of the best pinball machines of all time, even though everybody freaked out about the huge Angus face in the middle of the play field when it first got released, right? Yeah, they're saying like it's like one of Stern's biggest, potentially Stern's biggest seller is ACDC. Right. Even though it's got, you know, an art package that everybody freaked out about. So I think, well, that plays into their reveal cycle, though, too, right? So they come out, they tease it, they show pictures and video, some quick video, and that's all you really have to react to, right? You see the pictures, you react to the art and the layout and the mechanics of it. So pinball people get excited. That's what they're going to talk about. They're going to talk about the art. So, but over time we play it more, we fall in love with the gameplay and you can start to overlook the art. Maybe it's one of those things where like, if the art was better, I would buy this for my house. But instead I'm just going to play it on location and enjoy it or play it at a friend's house because it's so ugly. I don't want to have it in my house. I don't know. But it's one of those things. I think when you're talking about a 5,000 to actually 6,000 to $10,000 investment, people want the whole package, right? They want a theme they love. They want it to look great in their art and in their game room. They want it to play fun and have cool call outs and, and video. So, um, yeah, it's just one piece of the puzzle that I think could turn folks off from buying it potentially until, you know, further down the line when they play it and maybe fall in love with it. Let's, let's talk about the history of, um, uh, Steve Ritchie releases starting with ACDC and then the reactions. Okay. So, uh, and, and Kev, you got into pinball around this time. Were you in pinball, like on pin side when ACDC Pro was revealed? I'm trying to remember. I do. I feel like I was because I remember the freak outs about the art and stuff. Okay. People calling it Facey-Deezy and stuff. Yeah. So let's have, you know, old man Nick and Kevin, for those who are a little newer in the hobby, just walk you through this. I've seen this movie many times in the last eight years, and we're going to go back to 2012 when he released ACDC. First of all, when this came out, when Led Zeppelin came out, I'm in our Discord, and it's in Pinside, and everyone's shitting on it and losing their minds. And I'm sort of like tempering. I mean, they're trying to temper the expectations a little bit, like just calm down a little bit. Because I've seen this before, and it's a very boring movie because it just happens all too often. Here's what happened when ACDC came out. Kevin, you said that, but I want to break it down game by game a little bit. so this was when when acdc came out this was steve's return to stern he left i think in 2008 right and they and and and in between 2008 and 2012 they had like a skeleton crew of like john borg was making every game pretty um so steve comes back and his first game back people are excited for it it's acdc and then they show pictures online and people lost their shit not in a good way uh the pro was shown and you see angus's big face in the middle so again as kevin said the joke was facey dc haha it's pretty clever um they're like they're they're slamming it because there's not really much of a toy you know the bell didn't even think did anything on the pro um and then the layout is is t2 right all the way down to the canon people are like this is they're not liking it they're not happy it's like the same exact react and also the artwork you know even then before we got hand-drawn art they're they're not happy with it so it was the same negative reaction led zeppelin so what happens game comes out people play it and they fucking love it i played it and i ended up buying one about a pro and then premium came out and that was the first game from stern with leds and people were blown away by the lights and that so i i sold the pro and i bought a premium uh funny story i don't have any of those games anymore but it goes on to be potentially stern's best-selling game ever then what game came out next kev we have uh star trek yeah it must have been right the star trek comes out what the fuck happens again so people are this is star trek this is a one of the biggest license you can possibly get so they see the play field and people lose their shit it's just a bunch of colors on it and what is this where's what's this is toy on a spring this basic layout go back You can see this all play out. Lose their shit. Game comes out. People fucking love it. All right? And it goes on and sells well. People have it in their collection. All right? Next game comes out. Let's see his next game after that. Game of Thrones. Game of Thrones come out. Now the art is really hated on that game. People fucking... I remember Coast to Coast had a whole episode just talking about the art. Right? Like, again, same thing. Nothing on this game. Very basic. Lacking any real toy. a thing that jiggles on it and what happens people like game of thrones it comes out and oh the art's not as bad in person and it's just like i need to go on and on what's this next game after that star wars um star wars same shit god you see the pattern you see the pattern so when i saw this game revealed it's just like yeah yeah yeah first of all this is not even the worst in like the steve richie art that i've seen in the last 10 years what's gonna happen people are gonna to slam the art and they're going to actually play the game they're going to find it it's really fun then it's going to sell well you know i've seen it i've seen it all before we're groundhog day here what about walking dead well steve richie didn't design walking dead we're talking about uh steve richie design games yeah we're calling it the steve richie effect he had uh he had uh kevin o'connor art on black knight sort of rage so he he got one that was pretty okay the last time around it you know you're gonna get i mean it's like it's like the same art than on the black knight you know so but yeah yeah yeah it that finally wasn't a uh a license restriction kind of kind of game for him so yeah um what should we get into next so we talked about art i think we you know we've kind of covered the bases when it comes to art um what about so let's look i brought up i have the um some i have the gameplay features videos we can kind of go through some of the gameplay stuff uh let me pop over here and uh we can show that so this is the stern promo video this is the showing off the premium and uh are we gonna get muted we're gonna get muted uh turn this down back panel song led list uh it's got some ramps uh integrated playfield illumination lighting system. So, um, think of hot rails on, on, uh, Guns N' Roses, but not as cool and stuck in the side of the cabinet instead of along the bottom of the cabinet. Um that kind of or like pin individually lighted pin stadiums that are built into the side of the cabinet that sort of thing So they that one of their key features here um it like every song gets like its own lighting show with it like a choreograph yep it sounds like guns and roses okay um um so where are we going next with this oh i thought it was hilarious that they focused on this ball saver in this video it's like okay you hit two targets on the left and then there's a virtual ball it's a virtual ball that's the thing that Yeah, like, okay, here's a criticism. Why can't we put a coil in there? On the LE? Yeah, yeah, exactly. Okay, don't put it on the Pro. Why can't the premium in the LE get a real ball save? Right, and I feel like casual players don't understand that either. Like, if they see the ball kicking back, then, oh, the ball came back. That's cool. But if I drain and then it's just like the ball shoots out again, I'm like, oh, okay. That's, like, not an excuse with the license. How much is a fucking coil? Like, come on. That's the kind of thing where I'm like, I start getting like, all right, you could put that on the premium in LA. You could do that. There's not a lot of toys on this. So, anyways, go ahead. Yeah, take the coil that you would have used on a knocker back in the day and put it in the kickback, okay? All right, let's go back to this.
    33:50
    Why are people asking, Chad, what do people think of Awesome Powers? Steve Ritchie didn't make that game.
    33:55
    But what about all the board games? All right, Left Eject. Oh, weird, never saw that before in a Steve Ritchie game.
    34:03
    Yeah, I know. It's weird. His layout has a scoop on the far left, Star Trek. Yeah, I know. T2, No Fear, the list goes on and on. So that's a tried and true Steve Ritchie kind of layout thing. Yeah. So, cool.
    34:19
    When lit, shoot to collect extra ball and locks. It has a left orbit, oh, my God, with a spinner and a flasher, just like Star Trek. Yeah. It's got an orbit. It's got some rock stand-up targets on the right.
    34:34
    You can spell Zeppelin. One, two, three. It's like Zeppelin one, two, three. This is a Zeppelin ramp. The left ramp has a giant Zeppelin over it to not only block the orbit, but also block the ramp so you can't see the ball. But it doesn't really do anything. It's literally just the thing that sits there. Well, that's the other thing. Like, the Zeppelin is the toy in it because there's not enough Zeppelins in this game. So the Zeppelin is not a toy because it's a molded thing. Okay, fine. But why does that not do anything? Why can't that thing do something cool? Does it even have, like, no lights? Does it have a propeller in the back? I don't know. Could it have engraved, like, Led Zeppelin on it or something? I don't know. But it's just there. Sure, put it there. But that's another issue, right? There's just not a lot. Well, we'll get to the toy in it. Yeah. But you would think that they could have done something with the fucking – have it move around a little bit. Yeah, do something. Put it on a string. Put it on a – yeah, come on. Don't tell me. Oh, wait, it's got lights by. Put it on a string and have it move back and forth or something. Like, I don't know, have it move across the play field. Something fucking cool. It does not feed into the Zeppelin. It goes under the Zeppelin, and then there's lights next to the Zeppelin to indicate the locks. There's no, like, virtual lock there or anything like that, like, with that. Nothing. It could have – the balls could have loaded into Zeppelin or something. I don't know. They could have even, like, fudged it where they put, like, a diverter up there to just, like, hold the balls. Yeah. And then they release. I know. I agree. Like, I agree. Something with the Zeppelin would have been nice. All right. Whatever. Anybody can just fucking put a little Zeppelin toy in there.
    36:09
    Next. Yeah, that could have been a perfect mod for something. Zeppelin. Oh, my God. These animations. But I guess there's actually concert footage and stuff. And I don't know why they didn't show any of that in these promo videos, which would have made a huge difference, I think. Yeah. These animations they selected for the promo graphic didn't really do it any justice. No, it didn't help them. They didn't help themselves. It looks better when we saw the gameplay. Yeah.
    36:33
    I don't agree with this comment in chat, though. They would have been better off giving the Beatles treatment, just reskinning the whole game. I totally disagree. No. I totally disagree. They would have charged more, and you would have gotten even less. Like, that's the worst model.
    36:45
    That's not a win for anybody. All right. So we're flipping a hot shot reversing combo ramp. That's kind of cool. I like that shot from the upper. I do. I do like that. That's not on the pro though. Yeah. That's the pro. You get a standup target. Like why even have an upper flipper? If you're just going to shoot it into a standup target, you got to put something there. I guess. I would say, I think also to hit that, they also have that probably to hit that, those, the three bank, right. Yeah. Standup targets. Yeah. It gives you another way to hit those. Otherwise how you're really going to hit them. Right. I don't know. You'd have to like bank it off of the, from the right flipper at the bottom. you guys did not miss the gore and topper talk yet chat just it's gonna it's coming we're making you wait to the end yep yeah the best best things come at the end so you have to stick around so uh center ramp accessible from every flipper which um stern claimed was an industry first on avengers even though i could do it on on um heist uh but according to the stream the gameplay stream they didn't hit it up there or then maybe it went up there once so it's not like um avengers where it was very makeable from all three all the time. It's more of a like, it can happen sometimes, right? So I don't know why you would call that out when it's not very makeable.
    38:03
    All right, so we're flapping around. The ball's coming down the left in lane. LED standoff targets and ZEP drop targets. Okay, great. What do they do? for the people just listening to this podcast we're going again just to remind people they've like fallen asleep or wonder why this podcast has gotten really shitty in the last couple minutes um kevin's going through the video and breaking it down so better watch this portion if you can exactly and you know also at the same time you're probably not missing much as you can tell by kevin's commentary it's it's a reminder of all the uh the rule uh action so yeah oh you smell those to raise the electric magnetic device oh and stern they tricked everybody into thinking a spinner is a toy good on you stern you're really good it's such an ass it raises out of the playfield and it's a spinner oh my god and it has a magnet well it reminds me i remember the discussion that we had about um we were going through toys on ghostbusters and we had a discussion about whether or not the scolari brothers drop targets were toys or not and you that are absolutely not a toy.
    39:12
    I'm going to give it the fact that the spinner is not a toy, but the fact that it's something that raises out of the play field is a toy. I'm going to – that's where I stand on the toy controversy. If something actually raises out of the play field, lowers up and down, it's a toy. Now, the stand-up target says, you know, I know.
    39:31
    This is way more elaborate, though, than a pop-up stand-up target. You've got to admit that. Think about the mech involved. They tricked everybody. Oh, Kevin, listen. Easy. No. Easy. Okay, it comes out of the center play field. Okay. All right, that's – and it's significant. It's not just a little pop-up target. All right, it is a spinner, but it's also a magnet. It can hold the ball, and it will go – it will take the ball underneath the play field. That's not a toy?
    39:57
    Maybe. It's more of a toy than fucking little Deadpool or the Tidebiter on a string. Well, yeah, I'll give you that. The fact that it takes the ball – No, that's not a strong argument. It takes the ball under the play field. And I'll give you that. Okay, I'll give you that. But it's a spinner, everybody. I think my battle's wisely. It's a spinner.
    40:15
    But it also does some other stuff. Okay, what do you think of it? The toy, not toy behind us, what do you think about that? It's pretty cool. But the thing that I think when I see this game and the layout and everything, it's just like it could be any theme. Kind of like Iron Maiden. there's nothing really specific to uh the like the toys and the layout that screams led zeppelin or even like a rock band like what is a spinner that comes out of the play field have to do with led zeppelin or i mean you've got a blimp on there but that it's not an interactive toy like you've got an art and there's a leaping guy on a on a stick that jumps up but it's like okay it's very stern ask in that way right like let's develop a layout um you have your occasional games like like jurassic park i think is very well theme integrated layout wise with the toys and everything like that but um this game could be anything and that's kind of what stands out to me in the way the game is is structured and there's really not anything rock band or zeppelin about it what's the um reference to the um electric magic that's with a racing spinner like i don't know led zeppelin well enough to understand what that like if that's theme integration or what do you know it probably is i don't know i'm not a huge so i think as we're talking about the chat i think that that comes up you hit the spinner to charge the magnet and then when the magnets charge you hit it in there it holds it and then takes the ball underneath i mean to me that's pretty cool and and i don't know why this is like gets super compared to like somebody said it's it's it's the bad version of the iron monger i mean like first of all you gotta let me put this in context for you with the iron monger iron man was another game that just got fucking shit on when it came out they called it plastic man because there's no like metal ramps in it right like it's it's reductionist it's stupid it's a stupid bash toy so now you know now no one's ever going to be happy with that i i'm i'm of the opinion that the this this toy that comes up is is pretty cool like i like that it adds another shot another functionality to the game i think it's pretty cool i like a spinner whatever it comes with a play field i don't think it's related at all to the iron man whatsoever it just functions totally differently um but again let me just go back to that now everybody loves iron man it's one of the best games like blah blah some people own it these are the same this is this is the same ship that comes up all the time i've seen it before i've learned my lesson electric magic is an album or a tour shit is saying so there is some reference to zeppelin all right i guess the electric magic is you charge it up the magnet grabs it and sticks underneath that's that's kind of cool you're kind of cool you have the electric magic somebody said it's a it should have been a blimp what you want to fucking bash the blimp then they like sir we'll get killed for bash toys like we've had no bash toys that would have been if uh borg did it there would have been a blimp bash toy in it
    43:12
    what was what was the last best in the last five years what's uh the best toy from a stern I know I'm Jurassic Park dinosaur or the, or the black night.
    43:23
    Yeah. All right. So I'm not, I don't love the Jurassic Park dinosaur. First of all, it doesn't work half the time. Did you, did you ever get yours to work? Right. Yeah. Like a hundred percent of the time. I mean, occasionally you're going to hit like not hit it strong enough and it won't go all the way in, but that's a pretty good, that's a pretty good toy. The black night toys. I think, um, um, the Aerosmith the Jackie in the box throwing it is cool. So not only that, that was nicely molded too, right? It wasn't just like the functionality of throwing it in there. It's the fact that it threw like five or six balls in there and like molded nice. Anyways, yeah, so I don't know. I'm okay with this toy, but I'm all right with it. Yeah. It's good, not great. If you look at something like Iron Maiden, it's got the little coffin lock thing, which is just like, I think this is better than that. I have fun being a contrarian and being a devil's advocate what toy is really in Guns N' Roses? there's not I'm not going to go and say that there's it's a $9500 machine that has no toy in it it's a $6700 machine with no toy in it but the $9500 version has no they call standard but the main version the full fledged version has no toy in it yeah there's not like yeah there's not toys in that in the traditional sense i'll give you that but it's um i'm not saying every theme needs a needs an amazing toy i'm saying the playfield layout needs to integrate with the theme better and i think a game like guns and roses does that it's got the lock where you have the guitar head the right ramp is freaking drumsticks and everything so theme is integrated throughout that playfield you couldn't just throw yeah tron on a uh a guns and roses machine and you'd be like why is there a guitar in here you know what i mean that's my point no that's like that's a good point right so theme integrate like we've focusing on theme integration yeah you're right i mean the play field layout and it's not great you know it's not great and then i think the the where you're gonna argue for theme integration with led zeppelin is in and what they would probably argue is is the light show right and the programmed light show for every different song. That's probably where they're going to go. But other than that, it's pretty weak. When we talk about toys, we mean specifically things that interact with the ball. Somebody mentioned the lights in GNR. They're cool, like the little moving spotlights. They're cool, but that's not a toy.
    46:06
    When Nick and I talk about toys and pinball machines, we're talking about things that you can interact with with a ball yeah yeah yeah that's the so just to define so that's the toy con but that's that's the toy discussion is always fun yeah it's always a good time all right let's get back to the video uh wrap wrap the video up here um jesus christ who knew we could talk about this shit for an hour all right i knew we could there it is oh you're hitting the spinner oh that's that's when it grabs the ball that's cool i assume can you It is cool. Can it, like, hold the ball and you, like, smack the ball out of there? Well, it's really weird.
    46:41
    Maybe this was in the stream. When I was looking at the feature matrix, it was saying it has the ability to hold the ball. So maybe that's something that will get programmed in there with rules where you've got to, like, maybe the second multi-ball or you've got to hit it loose. All right. I think it's cool. This is my favorite part. Ready? Wait for it. Oh.
    47:00
    It's Icarus. He leaps up. Oh, my God. They should have just left. Yeah. It looks so cheesy. yeah well you know you can't win you take it out then there's nothing in there they throw it in there they say it's something in there yeah it's right over to the lock like acdc so it's kind of a steve richie greatest hits um which is is fair you know most designers have their signature uh their signature playfield designs but this one's kind of kind of a little bit of everything um i do have one other video i want to i want to show here there we go it's uh i know nick's gonna like this one the best it's the game accessories trailer so not only do you get a new pinball machine you get accessories to go along with it on day one so let's let's take a look at what you can add on to your uh your led zeppelin so you get if you didn't have enough of those symbols you get a four-sided led zeppelin symbols shooter rod rod knob it's pretty ridiculous 90 bucks yep oh and there's more more symbols on the uh side armor that you could buy for what 200 bucks i think they got they got symbols oh there's more symbols another zeppelin on the top do the symbols light up on the um i don't think they do on the side they don't know yeah all right um gordon's getting excited for the topper um and it's got spotlights on there i wonder where they got that idea from that is cool though i'm sorry that that topper is really cool like i think that's one of the better that topper is lame really yeah it's got i was impressed when i saw that topper i was like this is a good topper it's made of plastic and he's got two lights that turn back and forth on a single axis it's really dumb wow you are you Look at it. It's totally Stern. For $800?
    48:53
    I not saying is worth it I taking price off the table Oh okay Yeah I not saying I would So price is off the table when we considering Stern versus JJP but it not on the table when we talking about toppers
    49:07
    Let's compare it to R2-D2. That's garbage, right? I like the topper. The price is ridiculous, but I like the topper.
    49:16
    Look at it on top of the premium. They put it on the premium. Where's the... I don't know if I got a shot of it. The premium is all black and white. And then you have this bright orange top and purple topper on the top.
    49:31
    Yeah, the color. You're right. I mean, like I said, the color clashing is just, you know. It fits the LE the best. That's a cool attention-grabbing topper.
    49:44
    I'm surprised you're that negative on it. No, I do not. Price notwithstanding. Yeah, price is fucking stupid on toppers. I would never buy a topper. that thing is like if that was like 150 bucks then it's like and i could have a topper and i had that game then i'd be like all right that's not bad if i like this is my favorite game i wanted blah blah blah the 800 is just like you just don't know what to do with your money at that point and you're buying that black knight cool topper this not cool top well black black knights like one of the best toppers right there's some true shit toppers that's true all right uh In fact, Nick can't have toppers in his basement. That's true. Yeah.
    50:24
    So there you go. There's your accessories you can buy for your Zeppelin. So thanks for tuning in for your topper talk. There's more topper talk coming up. There we go. Is there anything else we need to talk about for Led Zeppelin? Well, gameplay. Gameplay. Yeah, we kind of talked about that when we were going through the video. But what are your thoughts on gameplay? So I watched some of the stream before it got cut last night. and it's fast, flowy Steve Ritchie, right? It looks fun. It looks like how you expect it to be. It reminds me, and I say it reminds me of ACDC. I'm not saying the layout is ACDC. I'm just saying the movement of the ball, right? The ball's sort of always in motion. You're always flowing versus like some Steve Ritchie games like the recent one, like Game of Thrones, you know, like Black Knight, where it's horror stop and go on those games. The ball's constantly in motion. It's constantly moving.
    51:18
    um seems like you're in multi-ball a lot then that becomes very acd-esque that's that's the vibe i got from this game i guess which is no surprise it's the music by steve rick so i'm sure that's design philosophy around it you're gonna out of the same it looks fun yeah it looks fast it's funny too because there's a lot of folks and i went back to the the thread on pin's eye and everybody's like oh this is amazing now because it's got fast-flowing shots i was like well it's a Steve Ritchie game of course you would uh of course you would get a fast-flowing game from Steve Ritchie um that totally makes sense but so you're going through the the release life cycle right like it's it's either based on the art it's either amazing or the worst game ever and then you see gameplay and then there's kind of like the inverse effect where if the art was good the gameplay is terrible or if the art was bad the gameplay is amazing and then everybody finds their reason to not buy or buy the game based on whatever reasoning they they've developed from the reveal so um yeah it's like up and down up and down um oh we didn't talk about the the set list of music yeah this is this is this is so here's my all right here you go here you go because this is all all the uh stern haters who want to jump on and bash this this is this is my love letter to you all right this let me throw you guys a bone because i know you guys want to hate on this and Stern and blah, blah, blah. I love the JJP fanboys. I like both companies.
    52:47
    The biggest letdown of this game, not the art, it's not the theme integration. I don't necessarily have an issue with that. It's not the lack of toys, blah, blah, blah. It's none of that. It's the fact that there's 10 fucking songs in this. Now, maybe that was okay when we had ACDC. ACDC might even have 12, but it's okay maybe for the first few music games, but it just isn't anymore. And it isn't anymore for these prices, especially when Guns N' Roses is putting out, what, Kevin, 21 songs? Yep, 21 full album version songs, yeah. It's like you're buying these pinball machines where the entire theme is the music. I mean, that's theme integration, right? At the very minimum, it should have more than 10 songs. What's the magic number? I mean, 21 seems plenty. No one's going to look at that and say that's not enough. But I can look at 10 and say that's not enough. I don't know where the magic number lies. I'll be happy. 15 maybe at least. There's got to be some threshold, but that's the most inexcusable thing about this game is that you're buying this super expensive jukebox and it's spitting out 10 songs. That's the biggest disappointment to me. Yeah. Yeah, especially, like you said, after GNR comes out and they drop 21 full-length songs in there.
    54:00
    Let's step it up. But again, there's a couple of points in chat. A lot of Zeppelin songs are slow and meandering. Not good for pinball. all agree with wildcat there i don't think stairway to heaven would be a good inclusion in here and i'm actually perfectly fine that it's not in there um no you know are there uh somebody else said uh zeppelin songs are expensive balser so that i have no doubt that played into it so i mean it's better than beatles where we paid 8 500 for the the bottom level and we got like 20 second clips of songs that's a joke i didn't realize that that's like dude yeah god cern cern just like yeah they know what they're doing and making up those things yeah so again it's licensing restrictions but you have to you have to figure out is it worth doing a pin if i only have access to these certain number of assets so it's it's a trade-off for sure um there you go uh anything else for gameplay oh i'm sure it's fun yeah i'm sure the game is is a lot of fun to just do is this a game you know the way we look at it through our lens is a game that you go out and buy you i have no idea yeah um i know you're not going to get one for sure yeah is nick lane a year from now going to get we'll see we'll see how it how it shakes out first of all they got to get the quality controls under control which we didn't point this out kevin in the um in the video that they shot somebody analyzed the video and they saw their coat cracking.
    55:30
    Um, and then they saw pooling in, in the, in the promo video. Yeah. I think it was actually the high-res photos. Like they put up these super high-res photos. You can zoom in. Yeah. And, um, there's all, there's also like, you can see planking on the, on the play field, which is not the end of the world, but if you're going to pick a machine to, to like take these shots of make sure it's perfect, especially when there's all this going on and people are freaking out about it. Yeah. So I'm guessing there's not going to be a Led Zeppelin in your future, but maybe they'll turn it. Probably, yeah. If I had to put a percentage on it, maybe 45%. And, again, it changes now. I said this before. I like what position I'm in with pinball because my basement's full, so I've got to, like, move games around, figure out what needs to leave or who's going to babysit a game. I've got to bring it down, figure out how to get in the base. Like, there's just so many steps. Also, the price has gone up considerably. So, you know, if I had a scenario where I had a lot of space for games and they were easy enough to get in and out, I'd be more lenient on what comes and goes. But I'm in a nice spot where it's like it's got to be something special. Will this game be something special? You know, this is not a knock on Tim Sexton, but, like, if you told me that Lyman was doing the rules for this and Steve Ritchie, I'd be like, okay, I better start saving my money because it's probably going to be phenomenal, right? So I just have really, really tight standards now. And I'm fine saving money and not spending money on pinball. The funny thing is I have now more money than ever, disposable income, to get a pinball machine than I did in the past. So in some ways it's easier for me to get one, and yet my standards have gone up.
    57:11
    And in the last 10 years it's like, you know, I'm just a – I'm not made of money, but I'd find a way to get a pinball machine up. Right. Like nothing was going to stop me.
    57:23
    So question from Mr. Bubbles, he wants to know from an operator's perspective, is it worth it for a location title?
    57:32
    I think that like the pro would be phenomenal for like Masuda Chow's right where we have like a rock lineup. I bet it would be great. I bet it would do great.
    57:41
    We didn't talk about like they actually one of the accessories. you can actually get the side lighting kit for the pro. Oh, that's true. Yeah, it wasn't. They haven't released the pricing yet on it. So I do like that. I think that's a good step, like that you can kind of customize your game a little bit more. Maybe you don't want to pay the premium price, but you want to get a pro. You don't need the mech that comes up, but you want the lighting kit. So I'm glad they give the option. Is it worth it for the steering wheel charge? You know, that's up to you to decide, but it's cool that they at least make that available. yeah i'm curious if the since that lighting is recessed on the premium le like does the cabinet come with like the recessed area in it where you can install it or is it going to be installed different or i think it's drill holes in your cabinet no i think they said that they have it ready to like be be put in right like it's it's like it's like plug and play it sounds like i could be wrong but that's that's what i gathered from you know the short kind of reading on it yeah I would hope so.
    58:40
    It's to be, to be announced. This is a, the pricing has not been released on that yet. So, um, yeah.
    58:48
    Anything else? Did we, did we, did we cover all the bases? Probably do chat. Did we do it right? We should showcase our chairs. We, we talked about the chairs on the, uh, the last one, but yeah, I got the, the secret lab Titan and Nick's got some GT racing. I have like the, basically the same chair, but just the, the cheaper, uh, knockoff company, whatever you call it. It's probably the same factory it comes from. There you go.
    59:12
    There you go. We got chairs, though. You know, this is when your big pinball, Twitch, and YouTube streamers and you're just living the life, guys. And when it's also your home office, you need a good chair to sit in instead of the jank one that I was sitting in. Thank you, 2020. So don't go anywhere. We have a special debut of a brand new segment for you guys. Our holiday gift to you. It's a Topper Talk from Gorin. So we'll do a little recap after this is done. So here we go. Let's do this. Topper Talk time. Enjoy, everybody.
    59:48
    It's Topper Talk with Goran right now. Let's all have some fun. This is about plastic on top of your pin. Go and buy one now. There's a topper here and a topper there. Here a topper, there a topper, everywhere a topper. It's critical to the gameplay experience. You must buy one now. It's your monthly fill of toppers right now. Topper Talk with Goran.
    60:16
    Hello, everybody, and welcome to the very first episode of Topper Talk with Goran, the part of the podcast where Kevin and Nick give me about two to three minutes to talk about everything that's going on in the very productive and profitable topper industry. If you don't know me, I'm Goran, and I am a topper enthusiast. And if you don't know what a topper is, a topper are those things behind me that go on top of your pinball machine and enhance the gameplay experience. So today we're going to be talking about the Led Zeppelin topper from Stern Pinball. Let's get right into it. All right, so let's jump right into it. So Led Zeppelin was recently announced by Stern Pinball, and I'm sure Kevin and Nick will talk, have or will talk about their opinions on the overall machine, but I'm here to talk about the topper. So recently announced and with most newer Stern announcements, they also release a game accessories trailer. And in that game accessories trailer, it will sometimes show the topper and it showed the Led Zeppelin topper. So let's go ahead and take a look at that really quick. Let me turn down the sound. That's not bothering me. Cool.
    61:21
    So, yeah, so we see the Led Zeppelin airship spotlight topper. We have the airship on top, a piece of plastic in the front, and then the main attraction here, the spotlights that move back and forth. Really cool.
    61:36
    Adds to the concert experience. You know, I think that, you know, I'm not here to talk about this. I don't think that the overall pin achieves the concert experience like Guns N' Roses does, but with the spotlight topper, you sort of go that extra step to make it feel like a concert. But here's what I don't like.
    61:58
    Certain pinball machines, except maybe, you know, the Batman machine, don't include toppers in any of their models. If, you know, it's either you buy the topper or you don't. And, you know, you're paying all that money for a new pinball machine, and at least for the LE, you think a topper would be included. So let's back up to dissect this a little bit more.
    62:20
    You know, the spotlights, I think, is what blinds me with this topper. It's what I really like about it. But remove the spotlights, you got nothing. You got some symbols on the front that lights up. You got the airship blimp. There's really nothing going on, not a whole lot of interactivity besides the spotlights. And I think that is a selling point. But guess what? You get spotlights in the game in Guns N' Roses. and you know with the way certain trends are moving you're looking anywhere between six hundred and a thousand dollars for a topper which is insane i am a topper fan and i don't think i would pay that unfortunately but but hey props to people who get it i think it's going to be a great addition uh to the machine and really add to the immersion of the machine um and by the way you know the other thing that that annoys me is the toppers only or the spotlights only move in one direction when you look at the spotlights in the Guns N' Roses machine, and you're moving in multiple directions. So it really feels like they threw something together to make it work because they had to have a topper. I think they hit it out of the park with the spotlights, but who knows what the cost will be, and I find it disappointing it's not included as stock on any of the pins. So that's my take on this topper. So yeah. Well, that concludes today's episode of Topper Talk with Goran. Tune in next podcast for another episode and go out there and buy a topper.
    63:45
    Wow. I don't know. I don't know what else we can say. That was quite amazing, Goran. Thank you for the topper industry insider. Goran topper insider. Kevin and I are arguing in chat on whose side Gorin's on. Kevin's trying to take credit. Gorin and I are lining up, which I don't know if I should be celebrating, though. I don't believe there's any winning in that. So I don't know, Kev. That's the beauty of Gorin. He can lie to anybody, really. He kind of treads that middle ground. Hope you guys enjoyed that. Thank you. This was our not-so-quick quick update on Led Zeppelin. See, that's why it's going to get a full episode.
    64:26
    What's the next topper, Gorin, that we can look forward in 2021? but people need to look forward in life kyle dropping the 5 000 bits thanks thanks kyle sir yeah i got an emote i got three emotes thanks thanks uh kyle that's nice of you yeah you know speaking of which this is uh the holiday season and if you need any gift ideas why not get your uh loved ones uh subscription to buffalo pinball it's it's the gift that keeps on giving for a whole you got one month a whole month of emotes and ad reviewing yeah exactly all right guys have a great day have a great evening um enjoy your holidays i hope you hope you got some time off coming up to to relax and and make the most of it but until next time nick have a good one yeah