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The Complicated Legacy of John Trudeau

Silverball Chronicles·podcast_episode·1h 47m·analyzed·Jun 23, 2026
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claude-haiku-4-5-20251001 · $0.038

TL;DR

Silverball Chronicles explores John Trudeau complicated design legacy and the ethics of separating art from artist in pinball.

Summary

In this Silverball Chronicles episode, hosts David Dennis and Ron Hallett discuss John Trudeau legacy as a prolific and creatively unconventional pinball designer across multiple manufacturers (Gameplan, Gottlieb, Mylstar, Premier) from 1979 onwards. The episode traces Trudeau's unusual entry into pinball (as an offset pressman seeking creative fulfillment rather than a childhood enthusiast), his design philosophy of constraint-driven creativity, and his most notable games including Rocky, Spirit, Alien Star, and Raven. The hosts grapple with the central tension of Trudeau's legacy: his significant contributions to pinball design history versus his documented personal misconduct that has made him 'widely considered to be the worst person in pinball.'

Key Claims

  • John Trudeau entered pinball accidentally in the late 1970s while working as an offset pressman, seeking creative fulfillment rather than pursuing a childhood passion for pinball.

    high confidence · David Dennis discussing Trudeau's background and career entry, drawing from apparent interviews/documentation

  • Trudeau joined Gameplan in 1979 initially as a game tester and progressed to design by the early 1980s, with Attila the Hun being his first actual design (unpublished).

    high confidence · David Dennis narrating Trudeau's career progression at Gameplan with direct quotes from Trudeau

  • Rocky pinball (1982, ~1,500 units) was designed by Trudeau at the last minute after an earlier whitewood by Ed Krynski didn't play well, despite Rocky III movie tie-in coordination already being underway.

    high confidence · David Dennis with direct quote from John Trudeau explaining the rushed Rocky design process

  • Spirit (November 1982) was designed by John Trudeau and featured six flippers, rotating backglass motor effects, and extensive drop target mechanics, with most units sold in Europe.

    high confidence · David Dennis and Ron Hallett discussing Spirit's gameplay mechanics and distribution

  • Trudeau had no consistent design fingerprint or style—unlike Steve Ritchie (known for flow) or John Borg (known for bash toys and ramps), Trudeau's games were unpredictable and quirky.

    high confidence · Ron Hallett and David Dennis comparing Trudeau's design philosophy to other major designers

  • Trudeau was the sole designer at Mylstar during the mid-1980s recession when budgets were slashed, leading to his most creative period under constraints.

    high confidence · David Dennis discussing Mylstar era and constraint-driven creativity

  • Trudeau designed or co-designed games for Gottlieb, Mylstar, and Premier across System 80A/80B and later architectures, with games like Raven, Hollywood Heat, and Genesis each selling approximately 3,500 units.

    high confidence · David Dennis narrating Trudeau's career arc across manufacturers and system platforms

Notable Quotes

  • “John Trudeau, you go up to it, you're like, well, that's weird today. What did he wake up in a fever dream?”

    David Dennis @ ~14:00 — Illustrates Trudeau's unpredictable and unconventional design style compared to other designers with recognizable fingerprints

  • “I got hired as a game tester. I would take the games that came off the line, supposedly finished, and make them work right.”

    John Trudeau (quoted) @ ~16:30 — Shows Trudeau's humble entry into game design and his transition from tester to designer at Gameplan

  • “The coordination with the Rocky III movie was already in process when I started Gottlieb in 81. Ed Krynski had a whitewooded development for a license tie-in. I guess it didn't play very well because it never made it to production. I came up with a design that was produced pretty much at the last minute.”

    John Trudeau (quoted) @ ~34:00 — Demonstrates Trudeau's problem-solving under pressure and last-minute heroic game design during licensing coordination

  • “Through constraints comes creativity.”

    David Dennis (summarizing design philosophy) @ ~26:30 — Central thesis comparing George Gomez/Stern's constraint-based design approach vs. JJP's unlimited-budget approach, attributed to Trudeau's methodology

  • “By not growing up in pinball, he didn't have an expectation of what pinball should be, right?”

    David Dennis @ ~54:00 — Key insight explaining why Trudeau's design philosophy was fundamentally different from designers who grew up playing pinball

  • “The pinball industry is like a mirror to society. Pinball is not immune to scandal, terrible people, or disappointing situations.”

    David Dennis @ ~7:00 — Establishes the thematic framework for the episode—separating art from artist and the ethical complications of Trudeau's legacy

  • “I really enjoy your content until Ron speaks. All you need to do is get rid of Ron Hallett.”

    Grant from Australia (listener email, quoted) — Light-hearted callback to listener feedback; shows community engagement and humor on the podcast

Entities

John TrudeaupersonDavid DennispersonRon HallettpersonGame Plan Inc.companyGottliebcompanyMystic StarcompanyPremiercompany

Signals

  • ?

    historical_signal: Comprehensive retrospective of John Trudeau's design career across four manufacturers (Gameplan, Gottlieb, Mylstar, Premier) from 1979 through late 1980s, tracing his evolution from game tester to unconventional designer.

    high · Detailed chronological narrative of Trudeau's career progression, game releases, and design methodology across episode

  • ?

    design_philosophy: Episode emphasizes Trudeau's design methodology of constraint-driven creativity ('through constraints comes creativity') as central to his unconventional approach, contrasting with George Gomez's philosophy at Stern vs. JJP's unlimited-budget model.

    high · David Dennis directly compares Gomez method vs. JJP philosophy and attributes Trudeau to constraint-based approach; emphasis on mid-1980s recession as period of greatest creative output

  • ?

    design_innovation: Trudeau's distinctive design approach featured unconventional flipper arrangements, multi-level playfields, multiple drop targets, rotating backglass effects, and unexpected mechanical placements without a recognizable fingerprint.

    high · Rocky featured unusual four-miniflippers arrangement; Spirit had six flippers, rotating motor, extensive drops; Ice Fever featured goalie with drop targets; contrasted with other designers' consistent signatures

  • ?

    community_signal: Central theme of episode grapples with the ethical tension of separating Trudeau's significant pinball design contributions from his personal misconduct ('widely considered to be the worst person in pinball'); frames this as the 'complicated legacy' question.

    high · David Dennis explicitly states this tension in episode introduction and title; hosts acknowledge owning multiple Trudeau machines and question whether this makes them 'bad people'

Transcript

groq_whisper · $0.334

0:00
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0:30
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1:30
Hello everyone, I'm David Dennis and this is Silverball Chronicles and with me is Ron In-Demand Hallett. What's up fella? I'm in demand. Does that mean I'm in demand or I'm like a pay-per-view and you gotta pay for me? I'm in demand. It could be a little bit of both, but you are in high demand. It's been a little bit of time since our last episode because you, you've been on the road, you've been winning tournaments, you've been hosting tournaments.
2:05
You have been absolutely the most difficult person to get on here. Wow. So thank you for making time for all of your friends. I have plenty of time during the week, but you just can't do that, so is it really my fault? Yes, it is. Okay. So here it is. We've had a busy time over on the Patreon. I want to thank our new patrons. One person, I don't have a name for them. They are Prime Laser Systems. I don't know, put them into Google. Maybe they're selling something you want to get. But thank you for joining the Patreon. And John K., the newest member of the Silver Ball Chronicles Discord team. They've seen the harassment. They've seen the sadness and the tears. And they've also seen your Transformers G1 Megatron from 1984, seen exclusively on our Patreon. It's a gun. It looks like an actual gun. Yeah, Walter P38, whatever the hell it is. The interesting thing is I went to eBay. You could buy these things new, so someone's making them. Unbelievable. Thanks for popping in for a couple of months, popping out on the Patreon. Really enjoy that because we know that people are earning money, and for them to provide us with some of that money to keep us motivated and not pack it in. That means a lot to us. What was the first guy's name? Prime Laser Systems. Maybe that's Optimus Prime. Oh. You ever think of that? I did not. That's his company. Now he's doing lasers for high school gym parties. I am Optimus Prime. Because he's all middle-aged now? Well, actually, in the original show, they were already like 4 million years old. Was that middle-aged for the Transformer? I don't know. Like dog years, but in the opposite? If I remember, they're like battling and then they crash on Earth in pre-hysterical times and they're all like deactivated or off for four million years. We're talking about Stern Pinball's Transformers. Mm-hmm. More than meets the eye. I don't know if it's the Transformers more than meets the eye or if it's just Transformers more than meets the eye, but it is one heck of a theme for those, I would say. In their mid-40s to late-40s, that is prime for them. Is this something that's on your radar, Ron? Stern Pinball's new game? I mean, I'm going to play it like every one of their games. I wasn't a huge Transformers nut. I mean, I had a couple of them. I wish I still had the plane. Was it Starscream? I can't remember what the plane was called, other than it was bigger than the other freaking Transformers. Billy Boeing? Is that his name? I don't. That doesn't mean anything to me. I also wish I had my Voltron, but I don't have that either. I was more of a Power Rangers, Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles, Ghostbusters cartoon kind of era. So I just missed out on Transformers. You mean it's the real Ghostbusters? Yeah, exactly. Not the fake ones on the movie. Yes, I remember that was the title, the real Ghostbusters. So it's just nutty to imagine the Transformers world as such a big part of my childhood because it kind of wasn't. It was on the periphery. I knew of it. It was sort of like the previous generation. And I think G.I. Joe was like the previous generation, too. G.I. Joe. Like four years, probably. Worth it. No corrections or concerns from our previous episode. However, we did get a nice email from Grant. Grant says, hopefully you remember me. I'm Grant from Australia and I know you're a big F1 fan, David, and I'm keen to know if you went to the Canadian race and if I enjoyed it. Well, I went to my honeymoon in 2013 to the Montreal Grand Prix and I haven't been back since. Although the big news around the 2026 F1 Grand Prix is not the drama on the track. It's the drama in Montreal where all of the strippers and masseuses in the Montreal area have gone on strike. Ooh. Because they want employment status and a decriminalization of sex workers. So Montreal, tip of the hat to you. Now, this is my favorite part of Grant's email. He says, I really enjoy your content until Ron speaks. All you need to do is get rid of Ron Hallett. Oh.
  • David Dennis and Ron Hallett both own multiple Trudeau machines (Hallett owns Alien Star and Black Rose; Dennis owned early Trudeau games that were cheap due to poor reliability and community preference for Williams/Bally machines).

    high confidence · Ron Hallett and David Dennis discussing their personal collections

  • @ ~10:00
  • “I don't think I've ever played this. This game is awesome. Probably one of the best of the era definitely of the Gottlieb widebodies.”

    Ron Hallett (on Spirit) @ ~44:00 — Positive assessment of Spirit as exemplary of Trudeau's best creative period at Gottlieb

  • Rocky
    game
    Spiritgame
    Alien Stargame
    Attila the Hungame
    Ravengame
    Hollywood Heatgame
    Genesisgame
    Ice Fevergame
    Tag-Team Pinballgame
    Flip N Out Pinballcompany
    George Gomezperson
    Steve Ritchieperson
    John Borgperson
    Ed Krynskiperson
    David Mooreperson
    Terry Doerzaphperson
    Stern Pinballcompany
    $

    market_signal: Trudeau's early 1980s games (particularly System 80A/80B models) were initially cheap due to reliability problems and community preference for Williams/Bally games, but later became collectible due to theme licensing (Rocky) and historical significance.

    medium · David Dennis describes buying early Trudeau machines cheap because 'nobody wanted these weird Raven, John Trudeau, Hollywood Heat games'; Rocky commands premium prices due to iconic theme despite gameplay quirks

  • ?

    manufacturing_signal: Pinball industry's mid-1980s recession and budget cuts paradoxically triggered Trudeau's most creative period at Mylstar where he was sole designer with severely limited resources.

    high · David Dennis emphasizes 'when budgets were getting slashed' and 'when he had constraints' as catalyst for creative Mylstar era games (Alien Star, Ice Fever, Tag Team)

  • ?

    personnel_signal: Trudeau's entry into pinball was unusual—not through childhood passion but as an offset pressman seeking creative fulfillment; leveraged Air Force electronics training rather than pinball expertise.

    high · David Dennis details Trudeau's non-traditional entry: 'not driven by a childhood obsession or a lifelong dream to work in pinball. It was almost accidental.' Joined Gameplan in 1979 as game tester.

  • ?

    content_signal: Silverball Chronicles maintains deep archive of pinball history episodes, with Trudeau's earlier career covered in previous episodes (Gottlieb episodes 19, 25, 31; Gameplan episode referenced for Attila the Hun context).

    high · David Dennis references and cross-links to previous episode coverage: 'covered in detail through his Gottlieb run. That's the Gottlieb episodes in our archive, episode 19, 25, and 31'

  • ?

    collector_signal: Rocky pinball's limited production (~1,500 units) combined with iconic movie theme creates collector demand and secondary market premium pricing despite gameplay issues; Spirit primarily distributed in Europe creating rarity in U.S. market.

    high · David Dennis notes Rocky 'usually pretty expensive when they come up, probably because of the Rocky theme and the fact they only made 1,500 of them'; Spirit 'most of these were sold in Europe. That's why you don't see them here'

  • ?

    industry_signal: Trudeau's employment continuity across four different manufacturers (Gameplan, Gottlieb, Mylstar, Premier) reflects industry consolidation, ownership changes, and designer mobility during pinball's 1980s decline and transition period.

    high · David Dennis traces Trudeau's path: 'Gottlieb family Disney to Coca-Cola Corporation in Columbia and then from there Mylstar for a cup of coffee and then from there Premier. One steady piece that had always been there was John Trudeau'

  • ?

    historical_signal: Rocky pinball's production reveals movie licensing coordination complexity—original whitewood by Ed Krinsky predated production game; Trudeau's game was rushed design at last minute; movie featured different pinball machine (Force One) as set prop with non-functional backglass.

    high · Trudeau quote: 'The coordination with the Rocky III movie was already in process when I started Gottlieb in 81... I came up with a design that was produced pretty much at the last minute'; Force One featured in movie with non-functional score window backglass design error

  • ?

    product_concern: Gottlieb System 80A/80B pinball machines from this era (including Trudeau designs like Raven, Hollywood Heat) suffered from chronic grounding issues and transistor failures, making them unreliable and creating secondary market bias against these titles despite design merit.

    high · David Dennis: 'problematic Gottlieb System 80s that have grounding issues and sometimes don't work and burn transistors because the boards weren't the best. So they were cheap. That is the reason' nobody wanted these games initially

  • 6:59
    He spelled my name wrong, too. Damn it. Two L's, two T's. Well, we always want to thank our sponsor to the show, Flip It Out Pinball. And if you're looking for your new Transformers more than meets the eye, you definitely want to email Ken or Greg at fliptheletteranoutpinball.com. That is the place to go. Is that where you're going to be buying your Transformers, Ron, to put next to your G1 Megatron Transformer? I mean, sure, if I was going to buy one. You're going to buy one. You're going to put it right next to your Elton John, right between where your new Sonic is going to go. Ah, yes, new Sonic. I can't wait. Ken used to work at JJP, so he knows all that's coming. So if you hound him at Ken at fliptheletteranoutpinball.com and harass him, you'll be able to get all the leaks.
    7:56
    Just constantly email him. Tell him you'll buy a pinball machine. From Flippin' Out Pinball with Zach and Nicole Minnie, just harass Ken if he tells you what's coming up along the way that you will buy a pin. He'll tell you. That's what you did, of course, to get in ahead of the line for an LE for Transformers. I'm the first in line for Beavis and Putthead. But since it'll never happen, I don't have to worry. They should have made it in the 90s, but they didn't. Let's get into today's topic. The pinball industry is like a mirror to society.
    8:32
    Pinball is not immune to scandal, terrible people, or disappointing situations. A case in point is John Trudeau, one of pinball's most creative and wacky designers, but also widely considered to be the worst person in pinball. The real question is can you separate the art from the artist or is John Trudeau's legacy always tainted? That brings us to episode 51, The Complicated Legacy of John Trudeau. What's your favorite Trudeau game? That's a tough one. There's so many Trudeau games I like. I don't know if that makes me a bad person. I mean, I own several of them. I have an Alien Star, I have a Black Rose, but I do like a lot of his games. Yeah, they're quirky, they're strange, they're very different when you stand up to a game, especially the ones in that like 1980s to mid-90s period. You're just like, wow, this is very different. The Stearns that he made or the ones later on in his career are also very different. But they're less wacky. They're strange, but not wacky. The reason I liked him is because he had no style. He had no, yeah, he had no fingerprint. You had no idea what was coming out when he came out with a game. Yeah, you stand up to a game, you're like, oh, Bashtoy and two ramps. That's definitely a John Borg. Oh, third flipper into some sort of loop. Oh, that's totally a Ritchie.
    10:11
    John Trudeau, you go up to it, you're like, well, that's weird today. What did he wake up in a fever dream? I mean, flipper cap might be the only thing I can think of. And even that wasn't totally consistent. Yeah, bouncy outlines. Like, let's wind it back. Let's talk about John Trudeau's beginning. And if you want to talk about him not having a style and his designs being strange, him starting in pinball, getting into the industry, discovering pinball as a child, was also incredibly different compared to most designers. Now, as we know, many pinball designers spend their whole childhood kind of sneaking off on summer vacation to play pinball or going to bowling with their parents and playing pinball kind of in the pinball area or off to the side. Well, I mean, it took years of lobbying to legalize pinball in the Chicago area, you know, so everybody had to kind of find it out or speak it out themselves.
    11:20
    John Trudeau's entry to pinball was not driven by a childhood obsession or a lifelong dream to work in pinball. It was almost accidental. In the late 1970s, he was working as an offset press man, which was making him good money, and he was feeling creatively unfulfilled. We spoke about this, I think, in our last episode, where John Trudeau spent a little bit of time over at Gameplan. And a press man was like, what was it, the person that moved the big metal plates for when they're printing like newspapers or flyers or banners or things like that, right, in these big industrial machines.
    12:05
    Would you say that John Trudeau was your favorite press man? Ah, no comment. Okay, looking forward to a change, he leaned on his electronics training that he received in the Air Force and took a job with Gameplan, as mentioned before, in 1979. And this was not a glamorous job.
    12:27
    He didn't walk in as a designer, he didn't walk in as an artist, he didn't start on the production floor manufacturing things, he kind of had a job somewhere in the middle. John says, I got hired as a game tester. I would take the games that came off the line, supposedly finished, and make them work right. The game comes down, supposedly built correctly. Some are, but most aren't. There's little things that have to be tweaked. He's not running wiring looms, so he's not quite like just an entry-level position. He's, you know, on the other side, designing games. He's kind of in the middle. He gets to play pinball for the day. Fixed little issues, but the real thing is, I mean, he's going from probably a fairly highly skilled job to kind of something in the middle. So from there, his job began to evolve, and he contributed some artwork because he could draw on some early projects at Gameplan. They ran on a shoestring budget, as we mentioned in our previous episode, and eventually he started to work a little bit closer with the design team, And he began absorbing everything that he could to build more knowledge. Then he started to learn about things like layout, flow, and manufacturing process. What was his first actual design?
    13:48
    Attila the Hun. Everybody's favorite classic, Attila the Hun. Right? Not a lot of people played it. It never made it into production, but it marked a turning point in John Trudeau's career Where he was no longer just fixing games, he was creating them. And from the very beginning, he understood the hard truth about the industry. Creativity always lived within constraints. As Trudeau said, there wasn't a budget to speak of. Everything was being played pretty close to the vest. Yeah, which basically means that he probably, in the interview where this is taken from, We can't remember what the bill of materials would, but there's two major philosophies when it comes to sort of building pinball, right? You've got George Gomez at Stern Pinball who is running their creative shop, and then you've got J.J.P.'s creative philosophy. One is here's your budget, here's your box, play within the box. J.J.P. is very much like spend as much as you want and we'll figure it out. But with those two philosophies, there's different creative juices that flow within the teams.
    15:03
    Trudeau falls more, I would say, into the Gomez method, which is through constraints comes creativity. What do they really mean by that, Ron? Don't spend too much money.
    15:14
    But, well, supposedly you will have to be more creative if you have less money to play around with. So you'll think of more creative ways of doing things. I think that's the general idea. Yeah, if everybody uses the same mech, everybody has to figure, if everybody uses the same mechanical pieces on this toy, everybody will come up with ten variations that are different of that mechanic rather than reinventing the wheel, spending your time and budget and effort on reinventing something from zero, when you can just change something around and it be totally different. So then you can spend your brain power on coming up with something smarter or cooler.
    15:57
    So when joining Gottlieb after leaving Gameplan, worked on some titles, some of them called Title Wave, Pipeline, Magic, Gold Rush, and Titan. All of those you can see on the Internet Pinball Database or IPDB.org. Now there's some images on there, some not in images, but none of those games made it into production. But what we can see and what the story is that we can pull from these titles right away is that John Trudeau could bang out five playfields in like three months. We have some comments here. These are actually comments from John Trudeau when he shared these pictures with IPDB. For Tidal Wave, he says, this is my first attempt at a real operational game. I tried to get everything I could into this effort. A two-level game, a large moving section of ball guides, and a vertical loop. Yeah, he's like, what can I put into this game? And he does everything at that time, right? That wide-body, early 80s, multi-level thing, that's still a big deal, so he's putting it all in there. What is he, like, moving ball guides? So do you think that's like by voters? Don't even know what it means. And then for the game Magic, it was an attempt to get the pinball to travel over four levels. It's like Halloween, the first version. I figured, why not?
    17:32
    Unbelievable. So you can see why they probably didn't make it into production, but you can see that he's already just like, he's not coming in with a certain, I don't know, bias or background or philosophy. He's just sort of like, I'm going to throw everything in there and see how it goes. Now a lot of these games we covered in detail through his Gottlieb run. That's the Gottlieb episodes in our archive, episode 19, 25, and 31. But I thought we would include some of the high points of the games that we could talk about in this episode. The first one I want to talk about is a movie that I saw long, long ago, as many people did.
    18:18
    And then I just recently re-watched, oh, about four months ago, and you know what? It actually is a very good movie. It's a little slow, but it is very good. And that is Rocky. You remember the 1978 film Rocky? No, I remember the 1976 film Rocky. Oh.
    18:38
    The 1976 film. I'll just type that. Ah! Now, this game, however, came out in September of 1982. Yep. And that was around Rocky III. Yeah, it was featured somewhat, kind of, in Rocky III. So it sells about 1,500 units, and it's designed by John Trudeau, and it does the artwork by David Moore, which I think is a high point of the pin. Now, the pinball machine featured in Rocky III as a prop was not the same game that was released by John Trudeau here in 1982. It's a Force One, which is another Gottlieb game, with a prototype rocky back glass that doesn't even have score windows on it, which is hilarious. Because in the movie, what's his name, Pauly, he throws this liquor bottle through the back glass, which shatters it. And only at that point can you actually see the score displaced because the back glass had no windows for. It's like movies in that late 70s, early 80s. They all just, I don't know, for some reason they just weren't as detail-oriented and things like that as they are today. They figured no one would notice that, and they were right. No one would notice that at the time, I'm sure. Yeah, except for nerds like us. Yeah, like me. But the thing is, I didn't notice it until I was into pinball, like I saw that movie when it was new, and I never noticed that. Now when I watch it, I'm like, oh, look, there's a Paragon right next to it. This is the killer lineup they've got in this arcade. But Trudeau says, the coordination with the Rocky III movie was already in process when I started Gottlieb in 81. Ed Krinsky had a whitewooded development for a license tie-in. I guess it didn't play very well because it never made it to production. The produced game didn't even exist at that time, nor did any artwork. I believe we were pretty close to not using the Rocky license at all. I came up with a design that was produced pretty much at the last minute. Now you can kind of tell. Well, it's crazy. It's got a crazy flipper arrangement at the bottom. That's one thing about Trudeau is he was very good at documenting his stuff, like for historical purposes. For the purposes of a history podcast like us, he was great. Tons of pictures. He took pictures of every Whitewood, regardless of whether the game was ever made or not. If it was good or not. Yeah. Everything. It's pretty interesting. So you'll see him in the in IPDB.org for all of his games. There'll be commentary and information on there. That's the complicated legacy of John Trudeau is that he he did all of this documentation, all of these things. And then that ties into his legacy of being a creep after is is how do you kind of engage and enjoy and work on these things when you when you know inevitably what his legacy will actually be. But if we separate that for the time being and we chat about that later, let's look at the flyer for Rocky. Answer the ring with the champ as featured in Rocky 3. Yes, the crowd cheers, the music plays, the fight begins. Oh, if it only played Eye of the Tiger, this game might actually be decent. So usually you have flippers in the middle of the pinball machine, a right and a left flipper. Sometimes you got flippers up the play field. Sometimes you got weird ones in the slings. Well, this doesn't have a traditional sling arrangement at the bottom. It has two kickers on the left and right side, but they're not angled kind of up the playfield. They're angled left to right. And then you have almost, what, like two different types of punches. You've got a left jab and a left hook and a right hook and a right jab. But there are four at the bottom almost mini playfields.
    22:34
    This is a terrible idea. It's not the first time it was done. There's an Atari game that does this too. And I think on the Atari game it's worse because, what's the Atari game, like Time 2000 or something? It has the same arrangement. At least on this one, when you hit the left flipper button, it does the two flippers that say left, left jab and left hook. They both go off. Yeah, both go off. And if you do the right one, it's right hook and right jab. If you play the Time 2001, I believe, if you hit the left flipper button, both flippers on the left side of the play field go off. Oh, that's terrible. Right, so, yeah, this isn't that bad, but it is very weird. In the center, the exact center of the playfield where you assume that the normal drain would be, it has, like if you've played Wheel of Fortune, you know how it kind of has this wider draft kind of in the middle and you can drain out? It's kind of like that, but instead of the flippers being angled down towards that drain, they're angled up at that drain. You've got to look it up. It's hard to describe. This, in my opinion, is a friggin' train wreck. However, it is a very interesting piece of pinball history. All of the bottom of the lower playfield, you're stuck down there flailing around, I guess, like a boxer. And they're usually pretty expensive when they come up, probably because of the Rocky theme and the fact they only made 1,500 of them. Yeah, I mean, it's got the brand, right? Rocky is massively iconic. Like, it was sort of featured in the film. Yeah, it's... Oh, if it only played that, it'd be incredible. I think that only starts in Rocky III, doesn't it? Yeah. Because I watched Rocky and I'm like, well, where's the eye of the tiger? No, that's the gonna fly now.
    24:34
    Yeah, I think that's in the first two. Ah, so good. So it's Cologne on the back glass. Let's take a look at his back glass face here. I think the back glass is the best part of this pinball machine. So if you can find a back glass, put it on your wall, you are getting the best part of this pinball machine. And it is that classic Rocky, I do it, hands in the air. Yeah, I think they had to redo that a few times because he didn't, I think they had him cut up and he didn't like that. He didn't like to have his face all cut up. Because he looked like at the end of the film where he's all beat up. And he doesn't want that. They got the movie back glass on there too. And IPDV. So, yeah, if you see it, what is it missing? Oh, it actually, it has one window. Oh, it has score windows, but they're not in the right spot. They're not in the right spot because they want to have Rocky all fully featured on the right. But that's not where the score reels are on the actual pinball machine. But the score displays on Force 1 are kind of in a standard 1-2-3-4 position, like they are on the production Rocky Backlash. But for whatever reason, they put the windows on the left going down, so there are no score displays. It's funny. Pretty nutty. You know, like Stallone, you know, was very involved in a lot of his image around pinball, especially Rocky. Rocky is very much the thing that created him. He bet on himself for Rocky. There's a whole story behind that. So he's very, very involved or possessive or whatever. Now, Dave Moore, he did manage to paint himself and John Trudeau into the crowd of the production back glass. And if I could find a photo of that close up, they don't have a close up version. But if you look at the back, I can kind of zoom in here. So Dave Moore is on the right ring post down above the score reel just to the left of his boxing glove. And he's in glasses and then John Trudeau standing just behind him with his arms crossed. So that's kind of a fun little bit, isn't it? Yeah, you've got to put yourself in the art. The next one, definitely the most important pin of this generation of John Trudeau, is November of 1982's Unlicensed, The Unlicensed Tripping Balls in Another Dimension theme. And that's Spirit. The art here by Terry Dozaff is the star again, but the playfield matched up this time, did it not? This game is awesome. So, you've played this quite a bit. Oh, yeah. I don't think I've ever played this. It awesome Probably one of the best of the era definitely of the Gottlieb widebodies which it a body So it a wide body It got an upper kind of right play field in the back corner Upper play field, two ball and three ball multi-ball, ball saver, flippers. It's got four flippers? Five. Four. Five. Five. Six. Six. Yeah, six. Actually, yeah, there's the other one. Because there's two in the out lane, so if you go down the out lane, you can use a mini flipper to flip it through a gate back to the main flippers. Six flippers and only one pop. See, already he knew where it was at. Again, ahead of his time. And it's got tons of drop targets, which is the best part of Oak Gottlieb games of this era is awesome drop target mechs. This game, the sound is the highlight of this thing. Okay, so I think it's art, you think it's sound. Well, the art's good, too. And it's got the rotating, the back glass has the motor that rotates. So back in the day, you had Xenon and other ones that had the lights and almost like a mirror effect. This one had like a rotating disc of, what, stars and blinking lights behind that that were then behind kind of almost a mirror-y type of back glass with like a weird face of a... I don't know what that is. He's supposed to be the spirit, maybe? I don't know. But it gives this unusual effect. The blinking, the spinning of the disc is very cool. What was it from, was it Zoron? Wasn't that the guy from Power Rangers? It's kind of like Zordon. I don't know. Zordon, where he's got like this weird face. So cool. Now, supposedly most of these were sold in Europe. That's why you don't see them here. But, yeah, there's one like 45 minutes from my house. You can see the wildly strange pinball design philosophy just in these two games alone, right? Tons of flippers, pop bumpers in many places. You can see when it works and when it doesn't work. It's a perfect two games to see that. I guess by not growing up in pinball, he didn't have an expectation of what pinball should be, right? Like, when you had somebody like Steve Ritchie who played pinball religiously as a child, he kind of developed this, I like when the ball is moving philosophy, so he always made sure the ball was moving. John Trudeau was just like, I'm going to put something here and put something there and put something there and shoot it, and if it flips and it's fun, I'm just going to send it out the door. Now the biggest issue around this time was the sort of decline and the death of pinball in that kind of mid-1980s during the major recession in the U.S. and around the world. Pinball was declining and budgets were getting just slashed. With budgets getting slashed, you also had layoffs. But that's when we moved into, I would say, one of his more creative eras when he had constraints, and that was the Milestar era. He was also their only designer. In our Milestar episode back in the archives, we covered Alien Star, which is probably the best one in that era by John Trudeau, would you say? Yeah, probably. He did the games, which is also a very fun and interesting game, which was based on, what, the Olympics? Yeah. Ice Fever, which I think is his neatest design where he has drop targets in front of a goalie who's playing pinball, but it's got that kind of hit the ice, goon style art, which is really cool. And a pinball machine that I owned, which was Tag Team Pinball. I like Tag Team. All of them fun. All of them cool. All of them unique. But you can tell they are on a different budget than all the other games. Alien Star definitely is on a budget. It doesn't even have drops. That's right. It doesn't. But then he had to get creative with ball movement, right? And then like an interesting do-the-thing rule. So it became less about like shoot up there and lock a ball and over there and go up this playfield and down that playfield, you know? And it became more like, do these three things in a row to get a big score.
    32:15
    And the whole industry was like that in the mid-80s. But then all of a sudden, Attila the Hun pops up again at Gameplan. How did that happen? But he's over at Gottlieb, Marser. How did that happen? Well, we covered this under our last episode, the Gameplan episode. But while he was at Gameplan in 1980, Ed Sabula asked John, who he had been mentoring with, to build a pinball machine around Attila the Hun. We mentioned that a few moments ago. John created the playfield. He slapped together some art and a theme around Attila the Hun. Well then, by 1984, Gameplan had ramped back up again and they looked through the archives and pulled out this playfield and slapped on some new art around the same theme. And Attila Lahan was born. It was a cool game, though. Not grace.
    33:07
    The art was horrific, if you ask me. A little bit questionable. It's fine. You've played this. Did you mention that in our last episode? I most probably have played this at some point. Like, it was kind of a pretty good design, right? It didn't have a whole lot of, like, It's actually not very crazy. It's very normal. It looks like a very, it's got six drop targets, three on the left, three on the right, it's got an orbit spinner. The three pop buffers. Three pops in the middle. This is very boring for John Trudeau. Captive ball on the left side, you know, it's good. If we jump ahead then to 1985, we spoke a little bit about the changes at Gottlieb where they went from sort of the Gottlieb family Disney to the Coca-Cola Corporation in Columbia and then kind of from there they went to Milestar for a cup of coffee and then from there they became Premier. We've spoke about that a little bit in bits and pieces through those previous episodes in our archive. One steady piece that had always been there was John Trudeau. So he's done those really cool Alien Stars tag team. Those are all on the System 80A or 80B architecture. Then they moved into kind of the rebirth in the late 85s all the way to the late 80s. We're talking the smash hits of Raven, Hollywood Heat, and Genesis all selling about 3,500 units. What kind of comments do you have around those three pins? Oh, I like the Raven. There's a Raven at the pizza place I just ate at yesterday. There's friggin' Raven there. So Raven was weird. So Raven was my second pinball machine. So my first two pinball machines were Trudeau machines. And it's because they were quirky. They were problematic Gottlieb System 80s that have grounding issues and sometimes don't work and burn transistors because the boards weren't the best. So they were cheap. That is the reason. And nobody wanted these weird Raven, John Trudeau, Hollywood Heat games. They all wanted, you know, your Williams, Gottlieb, or your Williams and your, you know, your high-end Bally Williams games. Nobody wanted these crappy games. Hey, Hollywood Heat, Steve Ritchie's favorite Gottlieb game of that era. Personally, I think Genesis is amazing. Genesis, yeah. You assemble body parts and stuff. I mean, it doesn't get any better than that. And then the toy flips over on the bottom of the playfield to reveal the thing. So you do the thing, and then it rotates, and it's like, hello, how are you? And you're like, yay, I did the thing. And the music is awesome. Whoever the sound person was at this era of Gottlieb, they ruled. They did a good job. Raven's kind of fun. It's like a female Rambo, photorealistic back glass. You got Hollywood Heat, which is a knockoff by Miami Vice, which is really like lots of pinks and greens And very Florida.
    36:13
    Flamingos. Yeah. Yes. Brutal. And then Genesis is very much like the. Brutal. It's great. Come on. You're using the wrong terminology here. It's great. So it was sort of like Genesis. Genesis has a little person on the front and a crazy scientist and a weird lady. Yep.
    36:33
    Hollywood Heat. There's the whole. I remember being at Expo one year at the. What's it called? The banquet. And they had the guy that was in charge of the Gottlieb Art at the time, and he had all these stories about the photorealistic backglasses, and like the car that's on the Hollywood Heat game is actually from some mob person or something. And they were worried about the evidence that they would get whacked or something. It was just great stories. But we can see that in this era specifically that the budget at Gottlieb is king, right? We're not putting a whole lot, especially in the early, mid-80s. Late 80s, we're putting more stuff in, but we're still pretty tight where when we start moving into the 90s, into the Williams era, boy, things really take off when it comes to budget. What does Trudeau say about budget back then? He says, if I could show them I could bring in a game within a given budget, I was probably given the go-ahead. We didn't make games with 17 pop-up assemblies. It'd be very expensive. So basically he was like, here's two ramps, three drop targets in this order. They're like, approved. And then he's like, over here, here's one ramp, multi-ball, some music, and two drop targets. They're like, perfect. Get it out the door. So they were kind of making as much as they could whenever they could. And this kind of end of an era is sort of sad because now it's kind of a cool in that ironic kind of way, I guess. But there's this weird experiment that Premier Gottlieb goes into, and that's international concepts. And that's from Kansas City, Missouri. What's your favorite part of Kansas City, Missouri? I've never been there. It's probably, what, like, ribs, right? I don't know. I know Kansas City Royals, baseball team. Yeah. I think everybody knows Kansas City for what, like, the pork packing industry.
    38:38
    Ah, bouquet. So Gottlieb, in a roundabout way, decided that they could fill some capacity by building and selling cocktail pinball machines. Ah, that sounds familiar. We just talked about that. This is what ties us into the previous episode. And we had somebody reach out to say, hey, you know, why don't you do something on these cocktail pinball machines? Well, secretly, we only did a little part of that with our game plan episode, but we're expanding on it here. So International Concepts was like an offshoot company from Gottlieb in 1989. So some people will see International Concepts pinball machines or these cocktail machines. And then they will see it on the pinball, internet pinball database. But they're like, who is International Concept? It was actually Gottlieb. Yeah, then they'll play them. It's like, oh, this is a Gottlieb. It's very obvious. So you couldn't just go to a distribution network, you know, like Flippin' Out Pinball. You couldn't just call up Greg or Ken at Flippin' Out Pinball to buy your International Concepts cocktail pinball machine. You had to buy exclusive territory rights, like a franchise rights for a specific territory to buy these pinball machines. They realized after two games this was a terrible, terrible idea. Nobody thought it was a great idea to buy territory rights. Back in the day, if you had a pinball route, you kind of assumed that that was your territory, right? You didn't want people moving in on your territory. So I guess on a way to build more territories, they came up with this idea. But I can understand the merit. What did Trudeau say about it? Trudeau said, they had an idea to license areas for exclusive play. They sold a game in the area to sell the game. It was somewhat successful. They're tough to play. Too fast. You shoot the ball and it's back right away. I think I did a little better on the second game. Always been a fan of them. And this brings us to probably the most kind of famous cocktail machines that people generally will see. And that is Night Moves. That's true. I've seen Night Moves. So many Night Moves. And Caribbean Cruise. I haven't seen Caribbean Cruise.
    41:01
    Caribbean Cruise is the one that I've seen. Ah. So I don't know if that was a bigger deal in the Toronto, Canada, Quebec region. But these are the ones, when people see cocktail pins, you know, we talked about those under game plan. I don't think people actually see those ones as much. I think when they picture in their mind's eye, I think they see Night Moves in Caribbean Cruise.
    41:31
    So Night Moves is like a nightclub. It's based on the Bob Seger song. No, it isn't. I'm just saying. Bob Seger! In a place Night Moves. So it's, but I think it's actually really cool because in this era, John Trudeau had figured out that you could make these ball paths fairly tight with a wide entrance. You didn't need ramps to make something kind of interestingly move around the pinball play field. It would go into a spinner and then it would kind of spit out the side or it would go up the middle and it would land in a captive hole. That's multiball. That's multiball. Like, it's really cool. Night Moves is really cool. And it's got that 1980s girls just want to have fun cocktail party zone thing. You know, like, it's fun. I know. Unfortunately, I played this in a tournament and it became very apparent there was only one thing to shoot. Yeah, what is it? You shoot the captive hole. No. And then you shoot the target. You shoot now. You shoot the turnaround thing on the upper left, the thing that goes all the way around. You just shoot that over and over and over and over and ignore everything else. Oh, see, I thought it was you shoot the targets and then you start multiball. It is way more fun to actually do multiball, but that's not what you do in a tournament. That's why tournaments ruin all gameplay.
    42:58
    It's totally true, totally true. Now, the in-lane, out-lane situation is really cool. There's in lanes that are behind pop bumpers that are just above the slings. Then behind the pop bumpers, you've got an in lane and an out lane, but you've got to be careful with your nudging so it doesn't go to the actual drain on the out lane. You can still nudge it back in. Like, you can tell he actually put a lot of thought into it, which is probably, when John Trudeau worked at Gameplan, he probably had a little bit of extra time after leaving Gameplan to kind of say, Oh, you know, it probably would have been better if we did this or that. I do like this game, which is funny. When I played it, it's like, well, who designed this? Like, oh, no, him again? Damn it. I like all his games. What's wrong with me? You are a terrible person. I am a terrible person. Bring up Caribbean crews. I want to see that again. All right. This is the one. I think this is the highest selling one. So they don't have any sales numbers on how many of these pinball machines were made. Oh, well, that's not true. So Caribbean Cruise has 377 units, so we'd assume Night Moves is something similar. Dave Moore, Castiano Mitchell, and Jeannie Mitchell did the art on these. Constantino Mitchell. Constantino. Come on, we did it in previous episodes.
    44:21
    So this is, like, if you've seen those, like, 80s playfields at Gottlieb, this is exactly the same. Oh, yeah, I don't remember this one. Damn, I've got to find one of these. What do you think of this? Feel the rhythms and motion of the steel ball in the newest cocktail pin. It's more than a pickle game. Feel the rhythms and the motion of the steel ball in the newest cocktail pin. Yaman, I am offended.
    44:45
    We invite you to plunge into the ocean blue and join the party on the SS Premier. Oh, God. The name of the ship is the SS Premier. Oh, my God. Obviously, exact same art style as Night Moves. Pretty much all. This one has three flippers. The same font as Night Moves, really. How do you fit three flippers in this little half of Playfield? Here, John Trudeau, that's how you do it. He probably has a whitewood somewhere on IPDB, too. Oh, let's see. I've never. Oh, it's four. It's got four flippers. Okay, are those the right flippers? No, certainly not. So these are the weird Gottlieb what like System 3. Yeah, let's take the side flippers correct. We're just looking at IPDB. I think someone swapped out flipper bats. Unless it came with these, it's possible. It is possible. Now let's talk about the upper playfield where you've got this almost like a mini upper playfield with a third flipper into almost a repeatable loop. Oh, I've got to play this game. It's not a repeatable loop, but it goes up into the spinner, and then it can kind of trickle its way back down into a saucer. The saucer kicks it out into the flipper again. I can't believe I haven't seen this somewhere before. I think Night Moves was the one that had the most made. Yeah. Because it seems to be the one that pops up more often. Bring up the flyer again. I think this is probably the better one. Bring up the flyer again. I'm just going crazy on the flipper bat thing. The flyer will tell us what kind of flipper bats were in there. Oh, no, those are the ones in the image. Wow.
    46:24
    Okay, so they used the newer flipper bats. I'm curious what flipper mechs they actually have in it then. It's interesting because this one has two flippers on the bottom, and it's missing the third one. So they added a flipper after the flyer picture was taken? Weird. Wow, the weird things you see. Crazy talk. Or maybe the one picture you had of the third flipper, someone added it. Yeah, maybe. Yeah, so check that out on IPV. It's a cool little unit. I need to find one now. Yeah, that's an interesting word. But it's very 80s. You're hanging out on a cruise. It's nothing better than getting dysentery with a thousand other people. Cocaine. I mean, it's the 80s, so. It's the 80s. That's how it goes. This is when the big sort of major change at Gottlieb is going on, right? They're trying to renew the brand. They're trying to cut costs. They're trying to, because they're not selling. Street level.
    47:25
    Right. Street level. We talked about that. So street level. I think we talked about this maybe episode three or four, way, way back in our System 3 episode. And if you go to the TopCast pinball podcast, you're going to have to search that on the Google and find it that way. They don't have a podcatcher channel, if you will. Nah, these were like 20 years ago. Yeah, it's TopCast episode 10. That's when John Trudeau, he starts cycling, he starts talking about cycling around these sort of lesser known titles and formats. You can hear all about those titles in our other episode or in this TopCast episode. But, you know, the cool games like Silver Slugger, Deadly Weapon.
    48:12
    Two more excellent layouts. Did he do the basketball thing? I don't think he did hoops, no. No. But Silver Slugger and Deadly Weapon both have great layouts. The layouts are not the issue. No, they certainly are. They certainly are. It comes down to, yeah. One of those, I think it's Silver Slugger where everything's a mystery. Like, it's all mysteries. You keep getting mystery awards and stuff.
    48:38
    A Deadly Weapon wasn't that bad. I mean, it's obviously a ripoff of Lethal Weapon. Yeah, or like a dirty, hairy kind of looking game. By ripoff of, I mean ripoff of the movie, not of the game Lethal Weapon 3 from Data East because that game came later. So here's an interesting quote I find from John about this part of his career. Like he talks a lot about working his way up and then you kind of get to those, you know, night moves and he doesn't talk anything about any of those or he doesn't remember anything about any of those. He knows lots about spirit. He knows lots about Rocky. And then he yada, yada, yadas over this part of his career, which I think was a difficult time for him. And John said, yeah, well, there's those couple of cocktail machines in there and Silver Slugger, right? And then Deadly Weapon. So that's it. He just, in that interview on TopCast episode 10, he just, ah, yeah, I did those games. Right, and they're kind of interesting in bits of pieces in pinball history, but he just shovels them off. I think what's important about the quote is not because of what he explains, it's because he doesn't explain it. There's no deep dive, he doesn't talk about his design philosophy, there's no technical breakdown, which he talked about in a lot of the other pinball machines. It's almost like he's listing things that he just passed through. They weren't flagship products. It was not part of the industry period that he enjoyed. It's almost like he got fired around that time from Gottlieb or left Gottlieb, whichever way, and he was done.
    50:17
    But the transition wasn't random because John Trudeau had a good connection with Steve Kordak, a relationship he had built over many years, and of course Steve Kordak being one of the most important figures in pinball history, isn't that right? Especially at Williams. That connection opened the door, and once Williams saw that John Trudeau could do what he could do, because you're at the same shows, you play the same games, you know, you tend to get to know each other, they knew that they could bring him in. Now this was a big philosophy change from Gottlieb to Williams. So what was it like at Gottlieb? But design, it was budget first, innovation limited by cost and time. As opposed to Williams, design was idea first within reason, and innovation was encouraged. Yeah, it was totally different. It was like, how many things can you put in this game to get it under a budget and get it out as fast as you could? What's the one thing the code will do? At Williams, it was more of a creative melting pot, a competition-based place. Trudeau doesn't leave Gottlieb because he was unhappy with pinball. He left Gottlieb because he wanted to build better pinball. And Williams gave him one of those things that he never had, and that was time. They had to bang out pinball machines every three months with a new design. That's how he got his nickname. Do you remember his nickname? Right out of the gate, he gets this new nickname given to him by Python Angelo. Dr. Flash. So why do they call him Dr. Fletch? Because he could come up with the play fields quickly. So he's almost having a hard time weaning himself off of that high-pressure, get-something-out-of-the-gate-quick philosophy of Gottlieb. But we can see on his first Williams pinball machine that maybe he should have taken a little more time. Nah, he just went crazy, and it didn't work, like I said. So we're talking about Bugs Bunny birthday ball from December of 1990. Bugs Bunny's birthday ball. The licensed golden era cartoon theme. Bugs Bunny is a mega important. The merry melodies, all of that stuff, super important to my childhood.
    52:39
    The concept was John Trudeau and Python Angelo. The design by John Trudeau. Art by Python Angelo and John Yowsey.
    52:46
    Sound by Paul Hirsch. Whatever. Software Dan Lee and a fellow just joining us. Dwight Sullivan. The funny thing is, Python said he would never do a licensed theme, but he could not turn down a chance to draw Looney Tunes characters. Yeah, this was the 50th anniversary of the Looney Tunes. Python, being the epic artist that he was, knew how legendarily important it was to animation that the Looney Tunes be honored, And he was not giving up the opportunity to draw the Looney Tunes. You a big Looney Tunes fan? Hell yeah. They're number one. What do you think of the Looney Tunes pinball machine released by Spooky?
    53:36
    It's not bad. Do you think it honors the legacy? Oh, yeah. It's a bit orange, in my opinion. Whoever they got to do the call-outs was good. He was good. Because Mel Blanc, of course, is dead. Yes, they resurrected him. I'm surprised they don't use AI just to copy all the voices at this point. So what do you think, if you compare the spooky Looney Tunes versus the Bally Williams, Bally Midway, Bugs Bunny, Birthday Ball? If this was right after Halloween came out and you looked at the two play fields, I would think that the John Trudeau Williams one was the spooky one. Because of the weird left, the left side of that play field. It's just so weird. It just seems something that Spooky would do as opposed to Looney Tunes, which has a pretty standard layout. It's nothing crazy. Here it is. Hair-raising pinball. Celebrate one of the one and the only Bugs Bunny's birthday ball. Yeah. Hair-raising. H-A-R-E. Get it? Yeah. Nah, seriously, I have so many Looney Tunes cartoons. I have like every set that they've released. I've got them on like DVD. Yeah, I have a DVD and then when they started coming out on Blu-ray, they just had one that just came out, like a volume two of something. I got that. Oh yeah. What's your favorite shorts? Do you have a favorite shorts?
    55:02
    There's so many of them. Any of the Rabbit Season, Duck Season ones. I love Daffy Duck, so maybe the one where Duck Amok. Daffy Duck. That's where the animator is screwing with Daffy and you find out, I won't give it away, but you find out who it is at the end of the episode and yeah, I love that episode. I love Daffy Duck I always wanted to be a voice actor Mel Blanc to me is like he God tier He like the highest Just watch that episode Listen to him scream as Daffy Duck Like the range is absurd and all the singing he had to do and everything else Don get me going on the whole Mooney Tunes thing Don get me going I'll get too excited. I see Foghorn Leghorn, though. I never liked him. What's Opera Doc probably my favorite? Oh, yeah, yeah. Right. And what was that other one? What did you expect in an opera? A happy ending?
    55:55
    Sorry, we're segueing off here, folks. We're sorry. What's the one where Bugs Bunny takes the monster, the red monster, and he's like doing his hair. Yep. And whatever that one is. Anyway, let's continue. Gossamer. That's the name they gave him later. Yes. So when we look at the play field here on his first pin at Bally at this time, Bally Midway, what's very apparent here? That was a lot of s*** on it. He's got a budget now. He's got a budget. He's got ramps. He's got a whirlpool ramp. He's got an upper place. Is it his first license theme since Rocky? Yeah, probably. I'm thinking about it. Did he do any other games that were licenses? He did the knockoff licenses. Yeah, like Deadly Weapon, which is Lethal Weapon, Hollywood Heat, which is Miami Vice. But as far as actual licenses. Where it falls apart here is there's like a separate playfield on the left side. And what you do is there's a flipper at the back of the pinball. It goes the other way. It shoots the ball towards the player. And then it kind of comes around a loop ramp and then ends up in the main playfield. But it just doesn't work. I think the other issue is Tweety's on this game. That ruins it. You're not a Tweety fan? I hate Tweety. I'm the one rooting for Sylvester to get him. I'm sorry. What about the artwork? Is it 10? Yes, it's Looney Tunes' character. It looks like it's drawn by the Looney Tunes people. Bugs Bunny right in the center, right above the flippers where he should be because he is the main character. It's just a shame. Now, of course, it's based on the Looney Tunes, which is the American media franchise from Warner Brothers. The franchise began in animated short films which ran from 1930 to 1969 along with the spinoff series Married Melodies which I would watch all the time. The two series really introduced the large cast of characters with Bugs Bunny and Daffy Duck and Elmer Fudd and Porky Pig and all those characters. Sylvester, Tweety, the term Looney Tunes has since been expanded to refer to the characters themselves, which before they were not, the Looney Tunes was just the episode name. The franchise itself is worth approximately $15 billion.
    58:33
    They have countless Academy Awards for animated shorts through the 1930s to 60s, and they have many episodes that have been added to the National Film Registry in the United States as being culturally significant to America. The latest film, The Day the Earth Blew Up, have you seen that? No. It's awesome. I actually want to see Coyote vs. Acme because that looked interesting. So that one is coming out this coming summer. But trust me, find The Day the Earth Blew Up, if it's on your Amazons or your Google whatevers, it is really, really, really good. And Daffy goes back to the absolute kind of crazy Daffy character as opposed to that.
    59:25
    Yeah, he went from crazy Daffy to like really pissed and bad temper Daffy that he was later on. Right, exactly. So it's the animation style is amazing. It is wonderful. I love it. Well worth your time. What does Trudeau say about his time working on this game? Well, he says, we managed to get a trip to California to the Warner Brothers Studios for the Bugs Bunny licensing, and Python did just a stellar rendition of all the characters. I wouldn't be surprised if Warner Brothers didn't want him to do their artwork for him. The revisions that came back were very minor, and the voices in the game were Mel Blank's son. I think it's Noel or Noah Blank, if I remember. I'm trying to remember his first name. It's one or the other. Cool. Lillie, Lillie, that's all, folks. I've never really been able to do any of the Looney Tunes characters' voices. That always disappointed me. Except maybe the Martian. You know, I claim this player in the name of Mars. Isn't that lovely?
    60:22
    Marvin the Martian. The Eludium-236 Express Space Modulator. So his next game, this is the one that most people know, I think, as being his real big kind of hit. I'm Hannah. I've lost 75 pounds in 20 months with GLP-1s, plus diet and exercise. On Rowe, I've gone from struggling to run a mile to running farther every day. You can access FDA-approved GLP-1s online. Get the support you need to reach your weight loss goals. Go to row.co.weight to see if you qualify. I'm a paid Rowe partner. 20% average weight loss in one year in non-diabetics with obesity or overweight with a weight-related medical condition versus 3.1% in placebo arms. Rx only. To be informed about serious side effects, go to row.co.slash safety. At Avocado, we know that not all mattresses are created equal. While other beds trap heat, ours sets it free. Made without polyurethane foams and crafted with natural latex cotton and wool. Breathable, comfortable, and supportive. No overheating, just clean, organic sleep that performs. Save 15% on our award-winning mattresses this July 4th sale. Avocado celebrates organic. Shop at avocadomattress.com or leading retailers nationwide. And that was the Machine Bride of Pinball. It sold 8,100 units. That's huge. That's probably his highest seller to this point. February of 1991, it's an expanded theme on the original Williams Pinball.
    61:53
    The concept was by Python Angelo, and he kind of worked a little bit with John Trudeau on the design. Artwork by Python Angelo because this is his baby. The Mechanics, Joe Juice Jr., Zofia Bill, who you'll know because she works some time at American Pinball, and Music and Sound, Dan Forden. Software by a fellow named Brian Eddy. This pinball machine is a little bit suggestive. Of course, Python did it, so it's going to be suggestive. So the theme is this is the partner to Pinbot, right? This is the sexy female robot. It's the bride of Pinbot. Pinnball is married to, and what is the main object of the game? Well, the main toy is her head, her face, and it rotates. So it's like four different play fields that rotate. It's actually a very super smart mech. Yep. You have to make her speak, make her see. What are all of them? And eventually she turns around and she's human. You turn her human. And then she starts singing. She has to shoot a ball into her mouth. Which is a whole thing. Yes, that's right. 100%. I've played a lot of this. It's fine. I like the original Pinbot more, and obviously Jackbot is better. It's shallow gameplay in that you just hit the left ramp a zillion times. It's all left ramp. And the center ramp occasionally, but it's still, the presentation is top notch of this thing. Like when she comes to life, and her heart beats and all that. Oh yeah, the actual top notch level there. John Yowsey also worked on the art. He says, I painted the back glass based on a rough sketch Python gave me. I resketched the whole thing, adding detail while tightening it up. Python was the artist for the cabinet while Kevin O'Connor inked only. I remember Python doing all the art except for the back glass. Then Kevin O'Connor says, looking at the play field, I sort of recall dreading to ink all those circles in the middle and thinking how insanely intricate Python's pencil was. But that's it, inking only. I had great respect for Python's artistic ability and felt honored to be trusted with part of the production of his project. Python was big on giving everyone credit. Go back and listen to the Python Angelo TopCast episode. From the horse's mouth, go back to our episode called Bat S*** Crazy, the Python Angelo story. You could tell that he was completely insane, but that is why his games were so unique and interesting. And Trudeau says, Python did a lot on that. Besides the artwork he had started with the initial layout, then I came in and finished. There were a few shots that weren't there that ended up being there. The heartbeat ramp, the second level play field. I wanted to make it look more like a sequel than it was looking at the time. And I brought in the second plastic play field where the ball just bounced around the post like the first game. It was really, yeah, like when you look at it, it's clearly a sequel. Because it has that upper playfield on the right side where it kind of bounces around like in the original Pinbot. And Pinbot's in it, like he talks. Oh, no.
    64:55
    Very, very cool. I like that one. The follow-up game was a bit disappointed. That was Black Rose. Not disappointing to me, but yeah, as far as unit sales, yeah, it's disappointing. Yeah, it sells 3,746. That's half of what Pinbot, the Bride of Pinbot did. And if you ask me, Black Rose, so much better than The Bride of Pinball, like so much better. It's the best pirate game ever. Brian Eddy worked on the concept with John Trudeau. Pat McMahon did the art. Dots by Scott Schlomany.
    65:26
    Mechanics by John Hirsch again. We've got Music and Sound by Paul Hirsch, who might be related. I think it's Heisch. There's no R in his name. Heisch? And the Dots would be Scott Schlomany, I think, is his name. I don't know. I think the spelling is totally wrong on your thing here. Wow. Anyway, software by Brian. Yeah, we really are bad with the names, but yes. According to the book Pinball Memories, artist Pat McMahon created an X-rated artwork version of the back glass intended to release in the European market, and that back glass was never produced. Surprise. I'm assuming she was nude in it. I would assume that's what's it. Or really tighter clothes than what she currently has. So I'm a backlash to speaking of that. Black Rose is a pirate lady in lingerie, I guess, which for the 1990s was kind of starting to push that limit, right? Like in the 70s or 80s, I think you could probably get away with that a little more. That's fine. And she's badass. She's got a tattoo that shows she's badass. This game is loaded. It is. You load the cannon. And the cannon shoots back at the player from the rear of the playfield. No, it shoots towards the back of the playfield.
    66:50
    Does it? It doesn't shoot at the player. Oh, no, I'm thinking the ramp. I'm thinking the ramp in the middle. Because when you fire the cannon, it'll go into a buck that then fires it through a plastic cannon thing that comes back at you. Yeah, that pops up.
    67:07
    Arr! Arr, I love it, Arr. Davy Jones' Locker make the explosive three-bank torch, gunpowder, and cannonball targets consecutively to shoot the locker ramp, which opens up Davy Jones' Locker to load the cannon. Arr, spiraling through the whirlpool ramp advances, Arr, the storing level all the way up to extra ball or million, Arr, Arr. We are the one. I love it. People listen to this crap. I love it. And, yeah, people should play Black Rose. Tell me about Black Rose. It's great. I mean, it's the best pirate game I've ever made. Right. So what are we doing with shots here? How do they feel? Everything feels good. They had trouble with the cannon, did they not? No, the cannon's fine. The cannon is just a repurposed, I mean, it's basically the catapult mech from Big Guns. They just repurposed it. Yeah. What did Trudeau say about this? Well, he said the cannon assembly was not cheap. It was a takeoff on the catapult assembly from Big Guns. Oh, I was right. We re-engineered it a little bit so when the catapult threw the ball, the door would open like a hatch and the ball would come out at the tangency of the playfield. So it would be like shooting the ball flipper. Well, the only thing is it does wear the playfield when it comes out. It's usually around the cannon. It doesn't look too good. Plus you get when the ball rolls around the cannon area, it can do weird things. But it's not easy to get that thing to pop up and be at the exact same level as the playfield. I don't think people appreciate the actual innovation that's required to make a view. And I haven't touched mine because mine actually shoots 100% accurate exactly where it should, so I'm worried if I screw with it I will mess it up. That's why most people when they make a canon, like if you look at Terminator 2 or any of those standard kind of canons, they're off the playfield. They're off the playfield shooting across the playfield or onto the playfield. It is a static thing that sits there like one of those fireback kickbacks. Well, John Trudeau don't play that. He's got to do something different. He's got to do something different. He's got the budget and the time now. It shoots great, and honestly, I think an MVP of that game would also be Brian Eddy who did the software.
    69:16
    The whole multiball, it's not like the standard of the day, which would be you lock balls, you start multiball, you shoot a jackpot. That's not how it works at all. You get in a multi-ball and you hit the lit ramps to spell sink ship, and once you spell it, then you can load the cannon to sink the ship, which is basically, essentially, the jackpot. Brian Eddy being one of the new junior programmers, right, his being his third or fourth game in, he's thinking about it completely different than those legacy programmers from back in the 80s, right? Yeah. So, um... But doesn't sell that great, so... As far as Williams is concerned, fail. It was Ken Fidesma or Neil McCastro that would make the final say on if something went into production. And I'll tell you, the cost must have had to be really high, really big for them to say no, because the next game, this is the one, in my opinion, this is the one. Creature from the Black Lagoon is a licensed Universal Monsters drive-in movie theater theme. It's December of 92, sells 7,841 units. John Trudeau on design, Kevin O'Connor on art, Jeff Johnson on software this time. The rest of the crew is the same. Scott Slomany, you got his name there right. That's how you say it. Right. Scott Slomany spelled correctly on this one. The game was originally titled Drive-In. Trudeau wanted to do a theme around kind of the 1950s drive-in, you know, 3D glasses go into the concession stand thing, right? But he didn't know really how to tie it together because in that day, licensing was king. What Trudeau says, what was the most successful 3D movie at the time? It was Creature from the Black Lagoon. Not only was it a great 3D presentation, it was one of, if not the most successful, underwater shooting ever done up to that time. Have you seen the original? I have not. I know there was like a different guy in the suit when he was underwater. They had some like Olympic swimmer or something to the swimming parts, but I've actually never seen the movie. So I love all of these old horror themes. Ah. I love the old Dracula stuff from the 30s. Creature from the Black Lagoon was from 1954. Now this was the last kind of bastion of those old black and white kind of creature films. So if you think of like the Invisible Man or Dracula, all of those. Frankenstein. Universal. Yeah, Frankenstein. Those universal monsters. This was kind of like they had come up with a bunch of other characters that you didn't, you know, that nobody remembers like the ant guy or the ant guy. Because they weren't successful. But this was like the last big hurrah. Actually, yeah, you're probably right. That's probably the last universal monster I can think of. I'm just thinking of Monster Bash. I'm thinking of all the Universal Monsters. Which one of them was the youngest of the monsters? Bride of Frankenstein. Yeah, Frankenstein. Yeah, Dracula. Who lived Phantom of the Opera? He was kind of one where they were like, yeah, Phantom of the Opera, but it didn't take off quite like the others. Okay, now we've got old drive-ins. Creature was like one of the last old drive-in movies. And Roger Sharp, he was working at licensing at the time at Williams and he thought John Trudeau was nuts. That why John wanted to do a black and white film when quite frankly he could go out and get any film at the time that he wanted. They're doing Terminator. Unless Daddy's got it first.
    73:17
    They're doing Jurassic Park, they're doing The Simpsons, they're doing everything. And he wants to do a film from 30 years before that? Like that's pretty wild. You're doing your dad's movies? Like, that's not cool. But it came together, didn't it? It did. Once John showed Roger the whole package of the 1950s drive-in theme with the creature and some art samples, Roger got it. And they went out and got the licensing for him. They didn't get the licensing for the actors. So how'd they get around that? Pretty easy. You don't need them. You just need the creature, really. The creature's all you need. It's not like Back to the Future where you just need the car. Like, nobody remembers the main actors and the main characters in Creature from the Black Lagoon. Yeah, I know. I remember the creature. It was Richard Carlson. I think it was Julia Adams was, like, the lady who played Kay, I think. So, I mean, come on. But you don't need... People are like, ah, they didn't get Richard Carlson? And, oh, this is the worst. Like, it was totally different. They got the creature. They got what they needed. So Trudeau asked Kevin O'Connor, the artist, what he could do. And Trudeau said, I gave him a picture of my son who was still in his teens at the time and asked him to try to age him a little bit and fit his likeness onto the actor, Richard Carlson, in the piff helmet. It came out fine for me at the time, and it really does resemble my son quite a bit. The real big gimmick here was the hologram. In the middle of the playfield of Creature is like this, it's like a whirlpool or I guess a lagoon if you want to call it that. You want to give me some highlights here on the flyer? Oh, it's loading. I think they lost a bunch of their servers. The flyer says claws for applause.
    75:08
    Real excitement, real profits, amazing. The drive-in classic of the 50s is now classic pinball for the 90s. Only Bally could combine the excitement of Universal's classic monster flick with the fun of a drive-in movie date. And when nostalgia meets high-tech pinball wizardry, the results are breathtaking. With a record-breaking 16 play modes. What the hell are the 16 play modes? I don't even know what that means. Two-ball multi-ball play, a fast-paced chase and rescue sequence, patented dot-mation animation, trademark, Even a 3D appearance by the creature himself, creature from the Black Lagoon, makes waves. Sixteen modes. What are they talking about? The funny thing is it does have two-ball, multi-ball play, but guess how many balls are in the game? Three. Three, but it never puts more than two out there. The middle of the play field, it is this weird lagoon-looking thing. So everybody is kind of aware of James Bond or something like that. It's got something under the playfield, then lights turn on and you can see it. James Bond? What is that? Yeah, James Bond. On the left side, it's got the scuba diver guy. That's if you have the premium rally, yes. Well, I mean, how would you have anything other than that? Yeah, of course. Yeah, of course. So then you've got that stuff onto the playfield. Trudeau back in the day during, not night, what's the one? The Metropolis one. What is that game called again? Your body hurts. We didn't talk about it. Genesis. So if you think about Genesis, it had the rotating toy under the playfield, which is neat but looks terrible because it's literally just a toy zip tied to a rotating playfield. I disagree. It looks great. This is like a 3D picture articulation green thing, which I think is awesome. What do you think? That looks good until it fades out. That's the biggest problem, right? So if you're going to make a 3D movie theme, the idea was we needed some sort of 3D hologram. We weren't going to give everybody 3D glasses because they were going to steal them or they're going to get lost or whatever. It just wasn't practical. So they decided to come up with this 3D image, and it was outrageously expensive. And John Trudeau talks about that during the episode, outrageously expensive, which is why it's virtually impossible to buy a new one. I think even if you had a new old stock one, they were like faded or something. Yeah, it was brutal. What they did is even, it just breaks down over time. There's nothing you can do about that. So you can actually, there was a fellow on Pinside one time called Mike D., who I think used some sort of Android device to make almost like a lagoon under it with moving animations, and then it would actually be triggered at the correct time, somehow with magic or witchcraft, to then make a more 3D looking creature, which I think is good for that person. Worth every penny. But when you look at this thing, it had budget. Did it not?
    78:33
    It's packed. It has a budget. The biggest thing that sticks out is the huge whirly twirly ramp looking thing with diverters, right? It's whirly twirly, all right. I love this game. So it's got the snack bar. You shoot the snack bar. You collect snacks. You shoot the orbit and you collect movie letters to start multiball. You can punch Dwight Sullivan in the face. You can punch Dwight Sullivan in the face, which I mean everybody who works with him wants to do. Oh, he's the peeper. Move your car is hilarious. This was the most expensive game that John Trudeau ever created and Williams went for it. Can't believe it. What about Jeff Johnson joining Williams in 1991? We haven't heard of him before. Trudeau says, Jeff Johnson was my software guy. Started with Williams and his first game was Creature with me. Fresh blood. He really liked being in the games industry and he brought a lot of creativity to the table. We were just having more fun. Trudeau was probably easier to get along with than like a Steve Ritchie, right, who famously was like very combative with his coders and probably still is. So something like Trudeau is probably better to bring on a new creative force to not like crush their spirit immediately. Great cleaning staffer here. This is awesome.
    79:52
    Please. So that brings us to Judge Dredd from September of 1993. This is based on the comic book anti-hero theme. It sells almost 7,000 units, 6,990. This is a concept by Python Angelo, designed by John Trudeau. Art by Kevin O'Connor. Dots by Eugene Greer and our buddy Scott Slomany.
    80:17
    And we've got Jeff Johnson on software again. Don't forget sound, the most important part. Paul Hirsch and Vince Pontarelli. Yeah, I think Vince Pontarelli is the guy that's playing that guitar.
    80:35
    Oh, music's so good in this game. It's good. The theme. This is not based on the terrible 1995 Sylvester Stallone film. Oh, I am the law.
    80:47
    I just remember that. I am the law. They're like, oh, God. John was a comic book collector back in the day, and he went right for this license, and it turned out to actually end up having a major film coming out, which is, again, is the absolutely terrible 1995 Sylvester Stallone film. Judge Joseph Dredd, Joseph being the, I guess, scariest name they could come up with, is a fictional character created by John Wagner and artist Carlos Escarella.
    81:19
    Escarella? Esqueria. I think the two R's or L's. I think it's Hispanic, but you're making it sound Italian somehow. Esqueria. It's amazing.
    81:29
    That sounds Italian. Does it? Yes. Anyway, Judge Dredd was a law enforcement and judicial officer. Judicial. He was a judge and law enforcement official in a dystopian future city called Mega City One, which was on the east coast of North America. He's what they call a street judge. He was empowered to summarily arrest, convict, sentence, and execute criminals on the street to speed up the justice system. Judge Dredd's story often satirizes American and British culture around the late 80s and early 90s and focuses on authoritarianism and police brutality. Now believe this is a UK comic. It is indeed. It's very much a commentary around society. One that fits, I would say, spot on at the moment. A 2012 film was made for this. It was not a follow-up or a reboot. It was a totally different film starring Carl Urban called Dread, and it is friggin' amazing. That's pretty good. No one saw it, and it is awesome. It's much better than I'm the law. I think he goes, I'm the law. I think he doesn't like that. Instead of Batman.
    83:06
    I am the law, I bet, man. What do you think of this flyer? Judge Dredd looks pissed, but he's holding a pinball. You be the judge. It looks like a comic book The flyer looks like a comic book Don forget this game has super game Super game Okay we talk about that in a minute What about some of the playfield features we got here We got this this this is if if The Dead World. Unbelievable. So Dead World is like a planet that is, that rotates in the background, and it was meant to originally be a ball lock. The balls land in this circular part. It has a little crane thing that takes it out of there. So they were concerned about this not working correctly. So at the last minute they took it out. It ended up just falling kind of through back onto the playfield in a virtual lock type of scenario. However, you can get a mod to make it work. Yeah, it basically, so when you lock a ball you just hit the ramp and it doesn't lock anything. But when you lock the third ball it actually will catch in the Dead World mod. So it will use the crane like once. It's got a crane thing next to it. I guess that was the concern that the crane thing would break and then the balls would be stuck in the dead world and not be able to get out ever. Until you pop the glass off. So what does Trudeau say about that? He says, I had to get rid of the holes in favor of slots so the ball could fall out by default because the balls couldn't go into orbit around the planet. Leadership were afraid that the crane would break and then we couldn't bring the slots out of the balls back out. There you go. So once they were concerned that once it was in the field, they'd be shafted. Now Trudeau talks about this in this pin in great detail in his episode of TopCast. The reason for that is he was very much invested in the theme itself. He knew all the bits and pieces. He's like, oh, Dead World, and Dead World is a part of the comics where, you know, there's like these judges from off-world live and all this. Like he's got all the lore. So there's a lot, if you know about, I guess, the Judge Dredd comics or do the research, this is a big deal. It's pinball with an attitude. So this is during the Widebody era, right, where all of a sudden Williams is like, how do we make things even better? Will we add more space? Does John Trudeau take advantage of that space well? Yes. Yes, this is probably the best. This and Roadshow probably take best advantage of the extra space, which is the amount of crap on the game. But this one shoots better. Yeah, Judge Dredd shoots fairly well considering that it is kind of a lumbering wide body. I mean, there's nothing lumbering about it. It is an awesome wide body. I'd say the only one that shoots better than this is Demoman, and that's because it's not really a wide body. Yeah, because it cuts off half the left top. It cuts off like a quarter of the play field. This one actually uses everything. And it has two significant ramps. It has, like, what, so many drop targets. There's like five in the middle and I think there's two on the right side. And that's flow for days. This is a great game. It's underrated in my opinion. What do you think? I love this game. It is underrated. Yeah. Once again, it's a Trudeau game and I love it. So I'm a bad person. Exactly. With the launch with this game, it came with a Judge Dredd in Pinboing.
    86:39
    Pin? Boeing? Pin? What does this say? It's a comic. Yeah, it's a comic, and it's like Judge Dredd is stuck in... I think it's supposed to be Pin Boing. Pin Boing Wizard. Boing. You know, boing. Oh, yes, I see. It's an eye. Okay, very good. Comic Sans, not my friend. But it's kind of neat. It's like a comic book. He's stuck on some sort of pinball, like Tron play field looking thing in promotion for the pinball machine. Very fun. And to show we have a budget, we have a topper. Yes. It doesn't really do anything. It just sits up there. It's just a 3D molded eagle, which is the symbol of the judges. Yep.
    87:27
    Love it. The animations is where this is at, right? The match screen is like an old lady who's like sitting on her porch. Gets up and shoots you. There's like a drive-by goes by and then she just takes out the people doing the drive-by. Two years for Fletulous. It's got all these crazy charges. You can tell they had a lot of fun making this game because they were invested in the theme. It was fun. It was original. It had a lot of great shots. And it's the only game with Super Game. Okay, so talk about that. You alluded to that a moment ago. Super Game. So I think you put more money in. Instead of just hitting the start button, there's another button you can hit to start the Super Game where you're like in constant multiball and it just, it's a super game. Everything goes crazy. Yeah, they're trying to find a way to help you continue. Like they have the buy-in feature, right? Try to get more coins. There's a woman narrator, her name is Anita Mann. Get it? Anita Mann. So it's just, yeah, I really don't play super game because it's just, it just puts you in multiball and goes crazy. I'd rather play the regular game, but that's just another thing they were trying. Probably the worst part about this game is there's no plunger or launch button on the front of the pin.
    88:46
    It's on the side. It's by the flipper. It's confusing if you were not, yeah. Right, so if you think of like us, and we stand up to that, we're like, where's the, and you gotta go, oh yeah, right, of course. I remember now. But if you imagine if it's on location, and you're just like a regular arcade player. How do I start this game? I didn't even realize until recently that the other button, there's another extra button on the side, you can change the mode. Yeah! You can play any mode you want. I didn't realize you could just change them. Alright, how about this one? This is The Flintstones from July of 1994. This is an epic, all-time greatest theme, right? Wouldn't you say? If it was the cartoon, yes, but it's not. But it's not. It's based on the film from the same year, the Flintstones movie. We'll talk to that in a minute. Art by Kevin O'Connor, Doss by Scott Slomany, Eugene Greer, Mechanics by Ernie Pizarro, Music, Dave Zabriskie, Sound Dave Zabriskie, and Software, Jeff Johnson again. So he's teamed up with the same coder quite a few times. So I think he's really, they've really, I think, found a groove between the two. Custom Call Us by Rick Moranis. Yeah, that's a big deal. Go for the strike! It's the Stone Age Rage.
    90:10
    The Flintstones on the flyer here. Meet the Flintstones, the rock-solid new prehistoric pinball from Williams, based on the universal rockbuster movie. Rockbuster. The Flintstones, oh my God. The Flintstones is modern age, stone age, family fun for all ages. The Flintstones has it all. The original theme song, Custom Dialogue, oh John Goodman did Custom Dialogue too. John Goodman and Rick Moranis and Harvey Korman. I didn't realize he was in this. And all the promotion and marketing muscle Hollywood can muster. So get the Flintstones and yabba dabba do it today. Hey, I didn't realize Harvey Korman was in this. I didn't realize he was still alive in 1994. He just was like, push the start button, and he's like, get me out of here.
    90:58
    Flintstones. Wow, so that means John Goodman's in at least two games then. I saw this movie in theaters. Ah. The Flintstones. And I also saw, there was around this time too, I think they did a Jetsons live action film too, I think. I don't remember that one. So anyway, there was like this push on at this time to bring back the nostalgia of my parents and their television watching and, you know, redo it for the next generation. I remember there was so much hype for the Flintstones movie. It was huge. This was like your post-Batman, post-Terminator kind of, they figured out how to do a blockbuster in the summer. They got the tie-in at McDonald's, they got the McDonald's toys, they've got the commercials during kids' time on Fox or whatever on Saturday mornings. All the pressure on everybody to go. And this film should not have been bad. It had John Goodman, Rick Moranis, Elizabeth Parks, Rosie O'Donnell, Kevin McLaughlin, Halle Berry in one of her original first things, and Elizabeth Taylor in her final theatrical appearance. So the idea is, in the stone age of a suburban bedrock, Slate & Co.'s Vice President Cliff Vanderkaeve and his secretary Sharon Stone plan to swindle the company of its vast fortune, then pin the blame on a patsy and flee with all the money. That patsy would be Fred Flintstone. Was Tony Curtis in this movie? It had a $46 million budget in 1993-94, which is about $95 million in today's inflation dollar. And it made $341 million or $753 million in today. This was a box office smash. So this was the day before Rotten Tomatoes and social media. All you had was like Siskel and Ebert or the New York Times that you would read these film reviews. But in other words, you got sucked into the hype, you went to it, and you realized it was terrible.
    93:18
    This movie received 32% Rotten Tomatoes if you aggregate all of the time. So it's 23 there. I'm sorry. It has a 23% Rotten Tomatoes if you aggregate all of the reviews together. It was not a great movie. Have you seen this? No. It should not have been bad. It just was bad. You know what's not bad? The layout. The layout of this thing. The pinball machine. Ah, another beautiful layout. So they're tying in on the license. They got the marketing might of all the Flintstones stuff behind them. For the film, they actually built an entire quarry town thing for Bedrock outside of Los Angeles to do this in. And the programming and design team actually went to that location just as they were finishing the shoot. And they took a bunch of pictures and they referenced those pictures in creating the pinball machine. And what do you think? Does this look like the Flintstones? Yes, 100%. They used a lot of plastic stone, a lot of plastic rock, but yeah. And it looks like the old kind of TV show, cartoon, movie. It's got the dinosaur, the brontosaurus head. Yeah, you could have rethemed this to be the cartoon. I've seen some people who have replaced the Translight with the original cartoon characters. The playfield is the shiner here. It's the code, I think, that lets it down a little bit. So there's a shot that you shoot up the ramp and then it comes around and it goes on this ramp below the flippers and around, which I think is brilliant. So brilliant. But then you have to shoot the bowling alley over and over and over. And the call out, Jess. Go for the strike! Ugh, Jess. Go for the strike! Over and over and over. Other than that, this game is amazing. What do you think? I always liked it, but I mean it's not, I don't think, how many did they sell? They didn't sell. This was on the downturn anyway, but. This was, yeah, this was that sort of post-1992 Toilet Bowl spin that they were on. Sells 4,779. Yeah. You know.
    95:45
    This ain't no creature. This is not a creature from the back of the game. I like it. Would I own it? Not at the prices they command. But his best game overall. The best game. Oh, you're okay. Not the game that I think is the best, but his best game is named after the amazing 1995 film, Congo, which I still haven't seen. I kind of see this. A licensed theme, it's February of 90, no it's not, it's November of 1995, unfortunately it sells 2,129 units. It's art by Kevin O'Connor, music sound by Vince Pontarelli, software by Bill Grupp and Dean Grover, your bros.
    96:34
    And I think that's probably why this pinball machine is his best game, because the layout married with the code team almost perfectly. I also saw this film in theater.
    96:49
    I don't know why I saw all of the worst movies when I was younger in theater. It was just terrible. So Congo. There's Tim Curry in it. How can it be bad? Exactly. So it's 1995. It's the science fiction action adventure film. So it's kind of like a, oh, let's get some sci-fi. Let's get some Indiana Jones in there. It's directed by Frank Marshall and it's based on the 1980 novel by Michael Crichton. And you remember him from Jurassic Park, right? The biggest film of like 1992 or something. I said you got Tim Curry in this, the gorillas are Stan Winston, you know, Stan Winston, the Terminator guy. Ernie Hudson, Laura Lenny, John Don Baker, Joe Don Baker. Joe Don Baker, yes. The film tells the story of an expedition team and a mountain gorilla called Amy. And the gorilla is owned by one of the members who goes into the Congo jungle to find a missing expedition in the ruins of an ancient civilization where they end up discovering diamonds. And they discover, they encounter an undiscovered and violent group of gorilla species that lurk there. And there's this whole King Solomon's Mines. This film had a $50 million budget or about $100 million in today's dollars. And it did $150 million or $323 million. Save a money? So it made money. It made triple the amount of the budget. And it has a 24% Rotten Tomatoes. So the film, although good, is, I don't know, it just doesn't work out. But I kind of like it. It's kind of... The hieroglyphics. What do they mean? Tim Curry, man. Tim Curry, oh God, so good. You know, like poor Ernie Hudson, he did Ghostbusters and he just never could make it. You know, like, ugh. Well, he did Ghostbusters and Kongos. He's two for two. He's two for two for two. At least with the call-outs. Ghostbusters 2. And he's the only guy, I think, that actually did the voice on the real Ghostbusters because he needed the money.
    99:12
    Interesting fact, the playfield you see was the second iteration. Okay. I've never seen the first iteration. The first iteration actually was a two-level playfield. I think that was in our Lyman episode because Lyman was originally one of the support programmers on Congo, And then it just was running over cost or whatever, and they just scrapped the whole playfield and started again.
    99:39
    And Lyman got reassigned to a game called Attack from Mars, you might be familiar with, and can't remember that. I want to find a picture of the original playfield of this thing somewhere. So this game is held in high regard amongst the tournament folk. This is a tournament darling, and the reason for that is that it's got a couple of different paths you can take to build points, right? You can collect the diamonds, which is shooting every shot. It's also one of the best shooting games ever made.
    100:09
    It flows really well. You know, the ball is always moving. There's lots of diverters, and you know how much I love diverters. Yeah, and Keith Elwin has ripped off several things from this game for his own design, so he obviously likes it. Wonderful game. Wonderful game all around. Now, it has an under play field where you use a gorilla almost as a flipper, and that gorilla shoots the ball back towards you, and it hits targets that are kind of against the player. You can't really see them from the player's perspective. Fun fact, that gorilla sculpt was done by the Stan Winston. Yeah, because he was unhappy with the sculpts they were creating, so he's like, screw it, I'll just do it myself, and he did it himself. Oh, Stan Winston. Like, this is unbelievable that Stan Winston would do that. So you have a piece of the greatest animatronic team. Yes, I have a piece of Stan Winston. Yes. Amazing. I like this game. I played a lot. I would totally have a Congo because I kind of enjoy the film even though it's not a good film. Here's the funny thing. It still has the big flipper cap. But you don't really notice it because it shoots so smooth and it just... You're not as scared to let it bounce on your flipper compared to some of his other games. So we talk about flipper gap, we mean at the bottom, the right and left flippers that you use are gapped like, what is it, a quarter of an inch more than most? His are wider than most. It's usually wider. So if the flippers are a little wider, that opens up shots further up the play field in different locations. What also makes it easier to train down the center? Drop catching, bounce passes are much more scary because they're not exactly where they should be by your muscle memory. Williams was really trending down at this time, right? Like, this was really a tough location. We get around 95, 96, and then they started their firings. So Trudeau was amongst the first group in that firing. He was gone. Like Barry Ousser was gone. I think Yossi went really quick, right?
    102:19
    I don't remember that. I know Nordman was gone. Yeah. I don't think he even lasted. I think Scare Stiff came out after they already fired him. It's like they got rid of all the people that they were probably paying a lot to. And then they kept all of the Gomez's and the other people that were kind of your second or third tier designers who were probably on a lower salary. So what does John say about getting fired? You walk in one day and your badge doesn't work. They're businessmen. They opted to go with what was best for the company. You can't blame them, unfortunately. And we'll talk about John Trudeau's Stern games in a future episode.
    102:56
    And we will, of course, work on his controversy probably deeper in that episode. But to tie it together like we did in our last episode, in 2017, John Trudeau was charged with child pornography. And he was charged a second time in 2018. In 2019, he pleaded guilty and was sentenced to three years in prison. So when we talk through some of the last episode and all of this episode, you and I struggled with, should we bring up John Trudeau? How do we talk about John Trudeau's troubled legacy? And how do we do it in a way that brings up the art that he gave us and him being a piece of garbage which he left us with? So how can you separate the art from the artist? Well, there was more than just him that worked on these games. Yeah. Like the programmers, the artists, everyone else involved. You can't just s*** on all of them because of the one guy on the team. Now what kills me is I want a creature from the Black Lagoon. That is one that I would love to have in my basement, like one of those bolted to the ground forever pins. But my wife vetoes that because she struggles with separating the art from the artist. And that is a completely valid thing. I totally get that. And it's just a shame that such a career was completely destroyed by, you know, the actions of, you know, a piece of garbage.
    104:42
    More on that in a future episode. Now, when you think about those pins, what is the thing that you want to remember?
    104:52
    Everyone's different. You never know what you're going to get. But you can get something that looks like Rocky, and then you can get something like Congo. That's like the greatest shooting game ever. You just never knew what you were going to get. I don't think he knew. With Trudeau, he's like, you have no idea. I don't think he knew. Now, do you think that's something that's missing in pinball today, is that there's nobody that just does random crazy stuff? Well, we had one, and he decided he didn't want to do it, and that was Jack Danger. And he was like, okay, I'm going to be the new guy that's just going to try the craziest shit. And, you know, he did it for two games, and then he had the third one, the, you know, Pokemon, which is kind of more standard, not as crazy, and now he's kind of, that's, he's not doing the design stuff anymore. But you also have Spooky, who have proved they will try anything. Look at Halloween. It doesn't always work, though.
    105:50
    Okay, do you want to read us out? Oh, before I read this out, be sure to check out my other podcast, or my podcast, my podcast's co-host, Bruce Nightingale, will get really pissed at me. My other podcast is The Slam Tilt Podcast. Check us out. We usually come out with an episode bi-weekly for the most part, unless absolutely nothing is going on or Bruce is on another cruise. I tried to get the whole episode, but I didn't even know what this is. Ha ha!
    106:21
    Thank you. It's a single episode. Remember to leave us a five-star review and that way more people can find us. Join us on Patreon to support the show. Becoming a pro crony is the perfect way to say thanks and it starts at $3 a month. Want to get early access to episodes before everyone else? Have a strange love for stickers. There they are. Join the Discord chat by jumping on. It's $6 a month as a premium crony. Want all the other perks to the shirt after three months? Join us at $20 a month as an elitist crony. Maybe you just want a t-shirt, I understand. Swing on over to SteveballSwag.com and pick up a Steveball Chronicles t-shirt. Especially the ones that have Ron's name first.
    107:41
    So now, if we go to... I have no screen. Oops. You have unshared yourself. Because when I... I'm just seeing GG. Because I'm trying to click on the... There we go.
    107:54
    That brings us to The Issue of Legacy, John Trudeau. That brings us to Episode 51, The Issue with Legacy.
    108:06
    That brings us to Episode 51, The Issue Legacy. I don't like that. The Issue Legacy or It's Complicated with John Trudeau. Episode 51, The Issue with Legacy or It's Complicated with John Trudeau.
    108:28
    Ron, what is... Or you could say The Complicated Legacy. Ah, okay, okay, we'll call it that. I like that. There you go. That takes care of everything in one sentence and it sounds better.
    108:41
    Well, it is Creature from the Black Blue. Let me click on this thing. Maybe this link is wrong. Do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do.
    108:58
    I'm Batman. Creature from the Black Goon makes waves. Yeah, Black Goon. Let me try that again. Creature from the Black Lagoon makes waves.
    109:16
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