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The Pinball Show Ep 173: Trough Jam 2025 Phase 1: Portal, Potter, Merlins, & Tariffs

The Pinball Network·video·2h 37m·analyzed·Apr 8, 2025
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claude-haiku-4-5-20251001 · $0.037

TL;DR

Pinball Show launches Trough Jam 2025 Phase 1 covering Portal, Merlin variants, and Potter announcement.

Summary

The Pinball Show launches "Trough Jam 2025," a multi-phase series covering the convergence of major pinball releases and industry developments. Phase 1 covers announcements from Texas Pinball Festival including Multimorphic's Portal (P3 module), Turner Pinball's Merlin's Arcade, Chicago Gaming's Medieval Madness Merlin Edition, and Jersey Jack's Harry Potter Pinball. The episode discusses production updates, tariff impacts, and code releases for Stern titles.

Key Claims

  • Portal had the biggest crowds and longest lines at Texas Pinball Festival among new releases

    high confidence · Host states Portal was "Game of the Show" with longest wait times; had three machines on display vs. two for Merlin's Arcade

  • Tim Sexton departed Stern Pinball for Play Mechanics arcade company

    high confidence · Direct statement: 'Word on the back alley is that he's out. No longer at Stern Pinball. He's now over at Play Mechanics.'

  • Metallica Remastered code (1.00) saw a sales bump following its release

    high confidence · Zach states as dealer: 'when a new code is done right, you do see a boost in sales from a dealer perspective, and we did. Metallica Remastered last week.'

  • Jaws Premium models expected to ship the week following the show

    medium confidence · Zach: 'word on the street is that Jaws Premiums will be on the line this week. Okay. So they should be shipping.'

  • Dungeons & Dragons experienced strong post-TPF sales surge beyond expectations

    high confidence · Zach: 'post-TPF, we'll talk about this in Market Trends, post-TPF, Dungeons & Dragons was kind of the darling... got a nice, hefty bump in sales that I didn't expect to that extent.'

  • Portal designed by Steven Silver, Michael Ocean, and Ian Harrower as co-creative directors

    high confidence · Direct statement of design team; Brad Albright doing first full art package on pinball machine

  • Evil Dead competing with Portal for best game at TPF but both had strong showings

    medium confidence · Host notes: 'I have not heard it was the game of the show. I overwhelmingly heard Evil Dead was, but I think there's a good argument to be made. Evil Dead had a very good showing.'

  • Keith Elwin King Kong rumored as April Stern cornerstone release

    medium confidence · Zach: 'Rumored to be Keith Elwin's King Kong... in April, here in April, we're going to get the next cornerstone game from Stern Pinball.'

Notable Quotes

  • “Game of the Show of Texas. I, okay. I may be rounding up. Oh, okay. However, it had the biggest crowds and the longest lines.”

    Zach Minney @ Portal discussion — Establishes Portal's strong market reception and crowd appeal at major trade show

  • “I would love to see what that team of co-creative directors could do if they put this in a Stern cabinet using the same materials and wood. I would just be interested to see what that would look like.”

    Dennis Creasley @ Portal design discussion — Articulates core concern: Portal's innovative mechanics are constrained by P3 platform limitations

  • “Word on the back alley is that he's out. No longer at Stern Pinball. He's now over at Play Mechanics.”

    Zach Minney @ Personnel update section — Confirms departure of key Stern programmer Tim Sexton, raising questions about Stern's technical depth

  • “It would be so cool to be a real boy if it was a real boy.”

    Dennis Creasley @ Portal engineering discussion — Metaphorical critique of P3 platform constraints limiting Portal's full potential

  • “Trough Jam is that, and we talked about this last episode, things are heating up. Where we get a lot of releases coming out all at once.”

    Zach Minney @ Trough Jam 2025 introduction — Defines the concept of market saturation strategy and its implications for the industry

  • “It's like it's getting in its own way. And I hate that for it. Because I'm, I think this could be a damn cool game.”

    Dennis Creasley @ Portal platform critique — Summarizes the paradox: Portal has strong design but P3 hardware limits its execution

  • “when a new code is done right, you do see a boost in sales from a dealer perspective, and we did. Metallica Remastered last week.”

    Zach Minney @ Code updates section — Establishes that quality code updates directly drive sales for existing titles

Entities

Zach MinneypersonDennis CreasleypersonPortalgameMultimorphiccompanyHarry Potter PinballgameJersey Jack PinballcompanyJack WinerypersonMerlin's Arcadegame

Signals

  • ?

    business_signal: Dungeons & Dragons experienced unexpected post-TPF sales surge, indicating strong competitive momentum for Stern's flagship title

    high · Zach: 'post-TPF, Dungeons & Dragons was kind of the darling... got a nice, hefty bump in sales that I didn't expect to that extent. So selling a lot of Dungeons & Dragons still.'

  • ?

    event_signal: Texas Pinball Festival (TPF) served as major industry announcement nexus for Phase 1 Trough Jam releases from Multimorphic, Turner, Chicago Gaming, and Jersey Jack

    high · Multiple references to TPF announcements and gameplay: 'Phase 1, is that of the TPS, the Texas Pinball Festival that occurred, with announcements from Multimorphic P3, from Turner Pinball, from Chicago Gaming Company, and maybe even an announcement from Jersey Jack Pinball.'

  • ?

    community_signal: Strong market enthusiasm for Portal at TPF with longest lines and positive reception; competing with Evil Dead for game-of-show recognition

    high · Had biggest crowds, longest lines; three machines on display; universally positive feedback on layout, mechanics, and theme integration

  • ?

    design_philosophy: Portal's watercolor art style criticized as not matching Portal video game aesthetic; more stylized/contemporary than expected for decades-old IP

    medium · Dennis: 'I don't like its watercolor style... It doesn't look like the video game... It's an old video game. I wasn't asking for screenshots.'

  • ?

    design_philosophy: Portal represents perfect marriage of innovative P3 platform mechanics with Portal theme, but platform engineering constraints limit execution potential

Transcript

youtube_groq_whisper · $0.473

0:00
Warning, the following episode contains adult language and screaming goats. Listener discretion is advised.
0:11
The Pinball Network is online. Launching The Pinball Show. On a most defining episode of The Pinball Show, Dennis and I begin a new series we are calling Trough Jam 2025. Or Trough Jam 2025. And on episode 173, we present phase one of said Trough Jam, which includes Multimorphic's portal release, Turner Pinball launching Merlin's Arcade, Chicago Gaming Company's Medieval Madness Merlin Edition, and the long-awaited Cactus Canyon upgrade kit launch. And JJP founder Jack Winery claiming to be the most powerful wizard of them all by publicly announcing Harry Potter Pinball and details of that game. We also chat about the upcoming Phase 2 of Trough Jam 2025, which includes the next Barrels of Fun game, and the rumored Keith Allen Stern pinball, King Kong. And then Phase 3 following, which will include Harry Potter pinball being released upon the world, and a possible Predator game by Pinball Brothers. We can't stop, won't stop there, as we have some pinball production updates and news, spooky pinball updates, and a most informative pinball market trend special tariff edition that Dennis strongly opposes, which then leads to what some would call a great debate, while others may term a popcorn-worthy argument. Oh, and don't miss the part of the show where we discuss the future, or lack thereof, of the pinball network. We are proud to say that this is The Pinball Show, and we thank you for making it what it has become. Enjoy.
2:07
Pinball is a game of skill. It's a passion and a lifestyle. It's time for the Pinball Show. It's pinball with personality.
Turner Pinball
company
Medieval Madness Merlin Editiongame
Chicago Gaming Companycompany
Cactus Canyon Upgrade Kitproduct
Brad Albrightperson
Steven Silverperson
Tim Sextonperson
Stern Pinballcompany
Metallica Remasteredgame
Dungeons & Dragons: The Tyrant's Eyegame
King Konggame
Barrels of Funcompany
Pinball Brotherscompany
Play Mechanicscompany
Venomgame
Evil Deadgame

high · Dennis: 'I would love to see what that team of co-creative directors could do if they put this in a Stern cabinet... the innovations, quote-unquote, are what's limiting this product. I really do. I can't look past it now.' Lift ramps described as 'clanky' and 'janky'

  • $

    market_signal: Code update quality directly drives sales: Metallica Remastered 1.00 generated immediate sales bump; Venom accessory timing was poor despite quality

    high · Zach: 'when a new code is done right, you do see a boost in sales... we did. Metallica Remastered last week.' Also: 'I thought they were supposed to be faster at this' regarding Venom accessory timing

  • ?

    personnel_signal: Tim Sexton departs Stern Pinball for Play Mechanics arcade company, raising questions about Stern's programming depth and technical direction

    high · Direct statement: 'He's now over at Play Mechanics. Ouch. Arcade company... They're rumored to be working on another pinball machine.'

  • ?

    product_strategy: Stern maintaining aggressive release cadence: Jaws Premium shipping imminent, April King Kong release confirmed as Phase 2 cornerstone game

    medium · Zach: 'Jaws Premiums will be on the line this week' and 'in April, here in April, we're going to get the next cornerstone game from Stern Pinball. Rumored to be Keith Elwin's King Kong.'

  • ?

    rumor_hype: Keith Elwin King Kong pinball confirmed as April Stern cornerstone release; Barrels of Fun Phase 2 game and Predator pinball (Pinball Brothers) rumored for Phase 3

    medium · Phase breakdown explicitly charts upcoming releases: Phase 2 includes 'rumored Keith Elwin Stern Pinball King Kong' and Phase 3 includes 'possible Predator game by Pinball Brothers'

  • ?

    business_signal: Trough Jam 2025 multi-phase release strategy represents deliberate market saturation approach, mirroring successful 2023 precedent

    high · Zach establishes concept: 'things are heating up. Where we get a lot of releases coming out all at once... we're seeing that again, maybe even more so right now... there are going to be different phases'

  • ?

    technology_signal: P3 platform inherent limitations in ball geometry and playfield feel compared to traditional wooden playfields; mechanical execution of lift ramps and complex toys still unreliable

    high · Dennis: 'the platform itself does not lend to geometry well... the feel of the geometry... you can't compare the feel of it because it's not going to feel as good as anything else... It doesn't even have a wood playfield feel.'

    • 2:24
    Hey, everybody. It's the Pinball Show. We're in episode 173. Alongside Dennis Creasel, myself, Zach Minney. Dennis, I'm amped up. I'm fired up. Is that because we're ready for Trot Jam 2025? Trot Jam! Balls are going to get stuck.
    2:44
    Magnetized. Magnetized balls. Yeah. I like the shiny ones, too, but, you know, I'm just really excited. I haven't been able to podcast in... No, you went on a journey. An epic adventure. I did. As did you. You went to Texas. I did. With Sir Tony. Nobody else went. We're already coming out the gate like that. Let me stand. Felt a little light. You know, I've been feeling, oftentimes I'm feisty going into a little break or an absence, and I come out very hippified. And I'm feeling a lot of love. I really missed you. I'm not going to lie. I've been looking forward to this, and I'm like, you know what? There's nothing negative in the world. Even if people are throwing shade or anything, it's pimple. We're all going to have fun. Games are great, and the market is awesome.
    3:38
    Okay, well. It's going to be a fun episode. And we can't start. We can't? Any pinball. Everybody's like, is TPN ending? Oh, okay, we'll get to that. What is that? Is Harry Potter? Okay, we'll do that. We'll get there. It's called Foreplay, people. And nothing tickles the chode like a stern pinball. I don't know if that's a ringing endorsement. But Stern Pinball, always in the news here at the Pinball Show. The past couple of weeks, they've been building Jaws Pro and Dungeons and Dragons. It feels like they've been building them, too, forever. So I'm asking myself, where are these damn Jaws Premium models that we've been waiting for for the last couple of weeks? But word on the street is that Jaws Premiums will be on the line this week. Okay. So they should be shipping. And then the schedule's very open. I wonder why. It is open like a Led Zeppelin pro play field. It is. I almost went into a trompet. I've been watching too much politics, man. Watching way too much. Enjoying every second of it. Really, I promise. This is positivity, Zach. And then in April, here in April, we're going to get the next cornerstone game from Stern Pinball. The second cornerstone of the year. rumored to be Keith Elwin's King Kong. I'm excited about that, as many people are. And we'll talk about that soon. But before that, did you see there were some accessories that were released by certain people? I did. What a great timing to finally put out accessories on a game everyone's trying to sell. They crossed the finish line there. And Venom. I thought they were supposed to be faster at this.
    5:24
    It's a thing. I don't. I don't understand. I just don't as well. I mean, here we are, Dungeons and Dragons. Yeah. Yeah, we're about to grow. This would be the time to do accessories for Dungeons and Dragons. That's a good call, yeah. It would be. I don't know. But we have Venom accessories. It would also be a good time to finish X-Men code, but... As well as accessories. What can I do? Yes. So, I did see a small bump in sales for Venom and interest, but not the bump that you would have received had it been a year ago. But I digress. The topper, I believe, is pretty damn cool. They did the whole felt like Mandalorian-esque shape and LCD integration type of stuff.
    6:09
    So it looks real. Did you get a chance to see it at TPF? I don't recall seeing it, no. It may have been there, but I did not go to play. I didn't play any Venoms. I didn't go to play any Venoms. Okay. I do know that the Venom shooter rod, A+, I believe. It's like this symbiote web-like thing over a typical shooter knob. Oh, that's really cool. Remember Tobey Maguire when he got all the black stuff from the 70s show guy? Yeah, very well remembered. Snapping while walking down the street with his emo haircut. Oh, yeah. Love that. People hate that scene. It looks like that. So the shooter rod, I think, was awesome. and the armor was really loud and cool. I kind of like that, too. All of it looked really cool, and it did very well to the property itself, the art blades and such.
    7:02
    So Venom accessories are out. Speaking of new stuff, we got new code for, this is a big one, the Metallica Remastered. Yes, I've seen a lot of people discussing this on various forums and Discord servers. Man, Raid A, nicely done. Version 1.00. Metallica's done. It's done. They made it. They did it. But, yeah, it's a hefty one. It's a girthy one. New song. I think it's Lux. I'm sorry, people. I don't know, like, Latin. If it's Lux Eterna. I just think of Requiem for a Dream. Lux Eterna, which is a new song. And they also make it a combo challenge mode, which can be unlocked to play at the onset of a game. You know, you do the double flipper thing. So a challenge mode. There's a new frantic multiball. A new The Unforgiven Wizard mode also can be used as a challenge mode. new set list combos, which I won't go into them here because I don't want to bore people, but it's actually really cool. The set list combos, Ray Day, you're welcome. I'm with you on that. Really cool stuff. New remixed expression light shows, more speech, more mystery options, Dennis. New Insider Connected achievements. You hear how my voice is tempoing up and additional tweakage and fixes.
    8:12
    I like tweakage. New code for Dungeons and Dragons. Now, I will say, going back to Metallica, when a new code is done right, you do see a boost in sales from a dealer perspective, and we did. Metallica remastered last week. I did see a bump in sales, which is cool. Dungeons & Dragons, I can't say that there has been a bump in sales because post-TPF, we'll talk about this in Market Trans, post-TPF, Dungeons & Dragons was kind of the darling. I mean, there were a lot of people playing it. Man, that got a nice, hefty bump in sales that I didn't expect to that extent. So selling a lot of Dungeons & Dragons still. Over in the Marco area, they had a lot of them. Okay. So people were pretty easy to get on the game without having to wait. That's a good thing, yeah. So their new code is version .89, where they added artifacts, such as Oculus Bow of True Aim, or Lifeblood Armor, or Mercy Broadsword. I think that's your stage name, isn't it? Mercy Rodzor to the stage And Dragon Heart Shield Go check that out Also new code for Venom, of course V1.05 Gotta get that topper in there Gotta get the topper support, which, not DLC I promise, it's not DLC But you get that topper, I didn't even mention that With the purchase And installation of the Venom topper For your game, you also add Programmable Code rule kind of stuff You get the Ghost Rider character, the Venomized Ghost Rider. He's right there on the topper, too. You also get a Symbiomania Wizard mode as part of that topper. So that all came into that as well. So a lot of new stuff. A lot of stuff may be coming in, but a lot of stuff going out, such as Tim Sexton. Remember the programmer Tim Sexton? Yes. Former competitive player. He might still compete. I'm not sure. I remember a YouTube video, though, where I think he said he wasn't competing anymore. Oh, okay. Whatever. Word on the back, Allie, is that he's out. No longer at Stern Pinball. He's now over at Play Mechanics. Ouch. Arcade company. Yep. Well, arcade slash one pinball machine company. Yes.
    10:34
    They're rumored to be working on another pinball machine. Do you think he's helping with that? Possibly. Could be doing an arcade game. You know what I'd like to see? I'd like to see Tim Sexton.
    10:45
    Here's my magic wand, Dennis, the listener. I'd like Tim Sexton to have gone over there, working with Mark Ritchie and Josh Sharp on the new pinball machine, but primarily bringing more complex and in-depth rules to the arcade world, which I've been telling them for probably going on three years now. we need to find a home base, a home market for some of these products that they are selling so that they can diversify a bit.
    11:16
    Design-wise, let's make them a little bit smaller, make another edition, a home edition. Let's beef up some of the rules and some of the programming so that it makes more sense to have some, not even more in-depth, but preventing you from continuing, continuing, continuing. Sorry, that's what I'm hoping Tim Sexton's over there doing. Tim, if not, can you talk them into it? Isn't that a good idea, Dennis?
    11:41
    The idea of the diversification is I don't know there's really going to be the path for home arcade games like that. Oh, come on. It's what they said in the 90s at Bally Williams about the home market. Did they? No, actually they said, get back to fucking work or we're going to start making slot machines. That's what they said. And Steve Ritchie was like, screw this.
    12:05
    See, the issue is, if you're going to make a video game, why not make one for PC and console instead and actually make some money? Well, because that is a pretty full market. I mean, it's a little price. It is, but the barrier to entry is very low for the consumer. And asking people to buy $30,000 battle pods and stuff, oh, no, it's the home version, so it's $8,000. Like, it's not, you're seeing it too much through the lens of pinball, and pinball's visceral physical nature puts it in a very different state than video games, which have been eclipsed by, or at least, let's not say eclipsed, let's say, have been matched by home-based processing power for decades at this point. It used to be that that was the only way to truly enjoy, like, you couldn't, like, the Pac-Man in the arcade was better than the Pac-Man on the 2600, But that processing gap no longer exists. So, honestly, outside of in the arcade location setup, there's no point for arcade games to exist as a new production thing anymore. There's not. It's only for that setting. I mean, there will be some demand for a home market. It's not going to be like pinball, though. Yeah, but look at this. This is a nice little discussion. This is what you get at the pinball show. Look at what you get, though, with arcade. It's somewhat what Pinball had to do where they had to shift. What experience can we offer as a coin-op provider rather than what a video game can offer on a Switch 2 in your hands? And that is more physicality, more of that type of experience than you can bring it home on the console. So haptic feedback kind of stuff to an extreme. But we have haptic feedback in the controllers now. To an extreme degree, to a more extreme degree. Yeah, but that's bigger sizing and bigger pricing, and then it's like, well, what am I supposed to do with this thing? It's hard to move them. People need to have specialized equipment or arrange for drop shipping.
    14:06
    Pinball people put up with this, but pinball is a very small market comparatively to the video game market. There's no – this is not – For the arcade industry to hit this in between, period, is my point. Like, these VR systems are great for the home environment, but there are some mobility things. There's some things you can do in a controlled space that I think, in the meantime, there's, I still have hope for the arcade industry. Okay. Tim, hopefully you see it my way. And if not, then I'll just wait until the next person and try to convince them. I guess what I'm saying is, why not both? The Raw Thrills did do the play mechanics, did do the cruising. Remember cruising? They brought that to the Switch a couple years ago, did very, very well on that. So why not both? They're not even looking into the home market, what they are, and the cruising stuff, but like developing games just for that. If they're already in the arcade market, why not diversify within that market so that you can, I don't know. That's all. Now for the meat and the taters precious of this episode. And you know what? A continual series that I think listeners are going to see throughout the pinball show for the next handful of weeks. And that is what we are calling the pinball show's Tross Jam 2025. Something about the seat edge and not eating all of it.
    15:38
    Yeah. Oh, well. That was my electric guitar. I thought it was a spring. Like an old cartoony spring. That was me shredding.
    15:53
    We're going to call this phase one. This is a multiple phase system. This is Trough Jam 2025. Like Marvel Cinematic Universe. Absolutely. What we mean by Trough Jam is that, and we talked about this last episode heating up. I think things are heating up. Where we get a lot of releases coming out all at once. And what better time than in this political environment of ever-changing marketplaces worldwide And it's just a storm is brewing And we don't know if we're going to be in the eye of the storm Or if we're just going to be peripherals to it But it's going to be interesting nonetheless It feels very akin to what we've seen a couple of years ago When all these games came out and then they fixed blame GTF on the other games coming out, and there was just a bunch of stuff coming out. So we're seeing that again, maybe even more so right now, so much so that there are going to be different phases, it feels like. And this most recent one, Phase 1, is that of the TPS, the Texas Pinball Festival that occurred, with announcements from Multimorphic P3, from Turner Pinball, from Chicago Gaming Company, and maybe even an announcement from Jersey Jack Pinball. So let's jump into Multimorphic, the Multimorphic P3 platform. They released Portal.
    17:20
    And on our last episode, I said the theme was, and you said the theme was, yeah. And then everybody responded, still makes responses from people from our discussion. People are like, yeah, that theme is freaking perfect for pinball. It's a huge theme, huge license, and then other people are like, well, it's Portal. So would you agree that we were still kind of split on that?
    17:46
    No. No? All right. Okay. No, it's a huge, I mean, I get that not everyone gets it, just like not everyone saw Princess Bride. Not everyone knows Labyrinth. Not everyone knows Evil Dead. I mean, it's true for everything. So, like, there's no point in discussing that. That's talking about nothing. It is a huge video game. It is when things sell games. It is a huge video game. To say it is not would be to lie. I didn't say it wasn't a huge video game. So, like, from a license perspective, it is a good get because it is a huge video game. We'll see if it converts to sales. Well, there's more than just license involved with that. Absolutely, and we'll discuss that now because you were able to see, feel, play, taste, and touch Portal. And it was universally, 100%, all surveys confirmed, Game of the Show of Texas.
    18:39
    I, okay. I may be rounding up. Oh, okay. However, it had the biggest crowds and the longest lines. Longest play time? Oh, the longest line. Not like spooky Scooby-Doo long. Let's not get ridiculous. It wasn't like that. It wasn't that kind of a play. And they had a couple there, didn't they? They had three. Yeah, okay. So that's a good number. And numbers matter. Absolutely. So, I mean, it's noteworthy to say only having three meant that there was a bottleneck. But I think Merlin's Arcade only had two, and the lines were shorter. But to be fair, Merlin's Arcade is a hard game. How many Evil Dead was there? I don't remember. Okay.
    19:25
    I don't remember. So you were there, so you may know more than I do about what came out. I have not heard it was the game of the show. I overwhelmingly heard Evil Dead was, but I think there's a good argument to be made. Evil Dead had a very good showing. Yeah. And so I've heard great things about this Portal game. It was designed by Steven Silver. I guess they're calling these individuals co-creative directors. They're not even doing design, layout, engineering. Isn't that getting into where you're like, aren't they all designers? Yeah, so I'm good with whatever. Steven Silver, Michael Ocean, and Ian Harrower.
    20:05
    Hobbyist Ian Harrower. Shout out there. So those three were the co-creative directors. Just call them creative directors. That's like the co-hosts. Just call them creative directors. Mechanics by T.J. Weaver and Trey Jones. See, now it makes me wonder, what did T.J. not have to be a creative director? I'm joking. I honestly don't care. Ellen McClain with voice work as GLaDOS. GLaDOS? GLaDOS. Hardo. You monster. Mark Silk doing some voice work as well for character Reggie, the color commentary figure, right? Yeah. Yeah, that's fair. All right. And then Scott Denise on audio package, fan favorite. And newcomer Brad Albright doing his first full art package on a pinball machine. So the question I have Is cake a lie?
    21:01
    I'm supposed to I'm doing like that I'm trying to do an Iron Maiden with the horns You're trying to fit in It sounds like a stupid joke A punchline So I'm just trying to lean into If cake is a lie At the end of the game you see a cake It's like severance or something Let's talk about the art Now, I've heard your take on this, so we'll be brief.
    21:28
    You weren't as hot on the art. No. Is that accurate? I don't like its watercolor style. I don't hate it. It's one of the things I liked. But it doesn't look like the video game. Okay. All right. Well, I can see the complaint there then. More stylized? Sure.
    21:49
    I get what they were going for. Up to date? It's an old video game. Sure. I wasn't asking for screenshots. I just, anyway. I liked, when I looked at this game, it looked like the franchise to me, very mechanical. The line work that Brad utilizes is very texture-based. And when you think of video game and you think of electronic theming of Portal, you may not initially think a lot of texture. But I do. I do because it is very, you get a lot of grays and steels and stuff like that. No one's buying this over the art, so. Okay, all right.
    22:32
    I think this art helps substantially because they're putting it in a lot of places now on the P3. I think that does help. I mean, it's on the sides. It's on the front now. It's on the topper. It's on the, it's really. When the game is off, you have a big black screen.
    22:49
    Touche. Okay. Artwork, Brad, I think you nailed it. I think it looks pretty. It looks pretty. And sometimes I don't like the looks of a P3 system. It's black boxy. It's virtual pin-esque. So I like a lot of artwork on there to help with that. Layout and design, we know that there are some crazy shit going on in this game. Two ball flights, a mini play field, physical ball locks, lift ramps, animated robot, like the personality core, but then it turns around and it shows a turret.
    23:23
    Who's complaining about this layout and design and toys and stuff? It's pretty awesome. Ladies and gentlemen, Dennis Creasley, he's not arguing about it. Are you asking? Are you asking me? No, I haven't heard anyone really complain about the layout. So that is a plus. So what's not to like about this? How did it shoot? I know how it looks like it shoots, but... It shot... I thought it shot well. Well, okay.
    23:52
    It's not going to win a geometry award or anything. Okay. I don't think anything on that system ever will.
    23:58
    That's my argument. I don't know. I do. I don't think it ever will. Sure. Well, I know you think you know. Obviously, with the extended lanes, it got a lot of praise from people about having physical shots on the lower portion of the playfield. I didn't appreciate that as much as a lot of people seem to. Okay. Like, I think it was, I think, like, strategically, it was a good move for them to demonstrate. Jerry spoke for years that they could do this. So I think it was good because a lot of people clearly, I guess, you know, at least verbally are indicating that that mattered to them. Sure. But, you know, it's like, so here's a ramp that extends down over and, but it, you know, it kind of gets in the way, too. So, but again, it did give you something different and closer, you know, with a higher risk to yourself because the shot is so close. You know, if you brick it, you may have a problem. So I thought from that aspect, it was workable. I did not play the non-extended version with the extended lanes. However, I did speak with someone who did. They thought that it played better when it was the more traditional P3 with the virtual shots. I can see it technically playing better. Yeah, I mean, you know, it's kind of like a pro flow speed versus the added features. That's kind of how I viewed it. But, you know, I mean, the layout in and of itself, like the toys and mechanics, and I think this has been true for a number of P3 games. I think they're really, really interesting.
    25:32
    Shot-wise, is it to the level of, you know, like what, final resistance? No. Okay. Not quite. But the shots, like, they didn't feel poorly designed. They didn't feel like I'm rattling around a whole lot or they stuck one too many shots in and everything's way too tight.
    25:53
    I thought the layout for me worked better than a number of their other titles. And I've liked most of their recent stuff. But I enjoyed this layout more than I did Princess Bride's layout. I thought this was a better layout than Weird Al's layout. I think when it comes to shooting the P3, the best comparison is going to be like American Pinball. That's about all you're going to get. I'm just arguing American Pinball price is a little better. I don't know. American Pinball has their games. I mean, there's a lot that just more comparable to that than it is in the other manufacturer. I mean, you can't compare any of these layouts that they can on the P3. I don't know. Any service is better than any of these. It just does.
    26:42
    Even Jersey Jack. It just does. And I think that's not the layout itself. The P3 layouts are better than almost everything in the Spooky catalog. No, no. Yes. Spooky had some trash tier layouts for years. They've done a lot better in the last two releases.
    26:59
    Yeah, that's what we're talking about is layout. I just, the platform itself does not lend to geometry well because of all the things like your scoops that are, I mean, you've got a lot of break points.
    27:10
    Yeah, but you can keep those down under programming. But that doesn't keep the ball down. That's the feel of the geometry. Whenever you have something always protruding, it's, you know, it's the window on the ACDC. It's the ramp flaps on, it's just, you've got too much of that, it's going to take away your feel of the game. Not to mention the platform's use of flippers and other stuff. To me, it's always going to be you can't compare the feel of it because it's not going to feel as good as anything else. It doesn't even have a wood play feel. It just is what it is.
    27:45
    I think the layout was damn cool. You can only really judge the back third. It was fucking awesome. I even like the sneeze guard cross shot that goes from the upper, like the flap thing that comes out and kicks it over. But it looks like it's floating because it's on like that plexi. Yeah. Badass. That's pretty freaking cool. And I don't even care about portal and this looks awesome. Like all the, I love that little, I'll call it a reverse plank because you're not jumping off of it. It's like throwing you up. That was freaking cool. I didn't even know how they did that. It's probably an opto. But man, that's got to be reactionary. It's got to be quick for that ball to go over that and it flips it up to the back wall, and it hits and comes down into the lock. That's, oh, yeah. I really liked all of that. Rules and code, I don't know. It was described as a 90s rule set. I didn't get that feel. You have different test chambers as you're going through, so I think that's oversimplifying it. Okay. I'd put it maybe more on par with saying, yeah, I mean, it's approachable in a Deadpool sense. Maybe we'll put it like that. Oh, okay. That's great then. that's fantastic animation how did that feel similar to what we've seen in the past they're they're holding back more on i think wisely on doing trying to i mean that i think they understand that they don't have the resources to make it look any better than a phone game so what they've done is like when you enter a test chamber you see that basic layout almost like an isometric view, so it can be very basic, but it highlights and allows it to shift so you know what you're shooting for. But much like Final Resistance, they've avoided doing a whole lot of animation on the play field. So you load in that mode, and it'll tell you your shots and stuff, and then that's basically it. And I think that works. One of the things I didn't like about Princess Bride was that, I mean, they had that really They've learned since Scott with Final Resistance, they're like, the more static we do it, the less people complain. So they're doing that. But with Princess Bride, it was just tons of like the video was in your face on the play field. And there was like this generic castle map thing that I just, I was like, this is, I'd rather it look like a, make it look like a traditional play field if you're going to keep it static. In this instance, they kind of split the difference. It didn't look a lot of times when you were in the test chambers like a traditional play field. it looked like you were in a room in the portal universe. So if you knew the video game, the rooms are small, and it's pretty, it'll be very familiar. Puzzle solving, yeah. Yes, yes, but the room's not constantly moving around. So it's using that to kind of convey, here's what you need to do to get through the chamber, and now your shots are chosen because of that, and the screen's able to change that, and, you know, it has that opto-detection so you can hit the virtual targets where you need to, and then you hit the stuff in the module that you need to. Mm-hmm. So it played well into the video game theme that they chose. Oh, what a perfect theme for this company, too. They couldn't have had a better marriage of theme choice and platform, in my opinion. It's probably about as perfect as they could get. I still think Porto could work as a traditional design. That was going to be my point.
    31:04
    Is that... You stole it nicely. When I watched the Buffalo stream the other night, was that last night, the night before, and I couldn't help but be excited and then be let down.
    31:18
    You know how much better this would work on a normal game? No, I don't because I haven't seen it on a normal game. It would get me excited. Yeah. Because there's some cool stuff on this game. but because I think the innovations, quote-unquote, are what's limiting this product. I really do. I can't look past it now. For example, the lift ramp, as you were saying, and it continually, whether it's the sizzle reel or gameplay, it looks clanky. It's pretty janky. And it, yeah, like, so you can bring things down, which is an awesome point of growth for this platform. But the execution, it just all feels still, it feels hampered. The engineering feels hampered by, is it even a word, hampered, by the platform itself. It's like it's getting in its own way. And I hate that for it. Because I'm, I think this could be a damn cool game. But, yeah, that's the issue I have with all of that I think it was smart whenever you had the extended thing to do a spinner Because it's like, okay, we can't really It's not going to feel too janky because it's a hanging It's a hanging object Okay, that makes sense But, yeah, I don't know It would be so cool to be a real boy If it was a real boy Because even like in the stream And over time, you see those flippers getting, it can't make the back, you know, far back ramps. It's coming back. It's going to just, you know. I would love to see what that team of co-creative directors could do if they put this in a stern cabinet using the same materials and wood. I would just be interested to see what that would look like. Well, you're not going to see it, so there's no point in hypothesizing. I don't know. I think there could be hobbies out there that want to show what this would be like. Because the other thing to take away from all of this is, we know the audio. We'll hit the last thing, audio and sound. It's fucking Scott and Easy. It probably sounded great. It's hard to hear at the show. Okay. The voice work for GLaDOS was excellent. It sounded cool on the gameplay stuff. It was a game that would be really reliant on call-outs to immerse you in Portal because you're spending a lot of time trying to solve these puzzles, So your only real interaction is Intel Portal 2. And then you have your, what in this case is Reggie. A lot of banter. A lot of bantering. So that was all. But then we go to the pricing.
    34:02
    Whenever this was announced, we were expecting, you know, the selling point is, hey, for another $3,000, you've got this module and you can add it. And you can add some more money and have art replaced and stuff. That's the whole P3 thing. however this got bumped up it's $3,900 for a standard kit but that's not the extended that's not the uh the stuff coming mid playfield that's just the back third again $5,500 is what it costs for that extended kit yes we're we're approaching fair and pro numbers there yes um so the argument at that point is like space saving somebody brought it up in our was it Discord? I thought it was very clever. They were like, how many people do you know in this hobby that only have one pinball, or only have room for one pinball machine? Because that's the whole sales pitch thing here. I was like, I never thought about that. That was their pitch originally. They don't seem to work that angle very much anymore. Because it's not an angle for this industry that will sell No, it's not. No, it's not. But I think with the original idea, I think that was I think the thought was there's a big untapped market where people want multiple games, but they can only house one cabinet. And then what I believe has happened, I think it's pretty clear, is that they've pivoted to try and just get this to be accepted by traditional pinball purchasers. Yeah. And I think it was the right pivot because it wasn't working the other way. $5,500 for that extended kit. That's hefty. That's a lot. And that's why, even though there was a lot of excitement and praise for this module at the show, and I said I felt it was the game of the show, it's not going to match Evil Dead sales or anything. It's just not. The price to get in, if you don't already have a P3, is too high for most people. You'd have to really love Portal or really want other stuff in the catalog. But you start adding in the multiple thousands of dollars it is to get the other modules that you might want, And it's a tall order. And they've done – so in the end, I think that this does not match the sales on systems that Weird Al did. And I don't even think it's going to meet the module sale count that Princess Bride had. But we'll see. Because, again, you could end up seeing people buying the standard kit, which is why – and it was smart of them to do the standard kit because just – I mean, it did keep the pricing down by $1,500. But, yeah, it got high. The Topper alone, $750 as an accessory. Yeah, but I mean, if you don't already have a P3, that's the thing, is right now, it's like, you have to spend five figures to get into this game if you don't have the P3. And that's always, I felt, been a challenge to, you have to convince people, and we've had these discussions with our people who get on the Happy Hour, TPS Happy Hour, where they're like, I've been interested in a variety of things, but I need enough kits so that it actually makes the mathematical sense. Like, they're doing the value equation, and this isn't scientific. My loose rule that seemed like antidotally that I've detected is people need three kits they clearly want, and that's often the point where it'll push them over. Okay. So maybe this does that in the sense that, hey, I want Weird Al and Princess Bride and Portal. Oh, I've had to use that bill. That pushes it over, but it's a hefty purchase. And maybe they don't buy it all at once. They just need it mentally to know that it all exists and is available to them, and then they can go in and do that. I think with people that are in this hobby, when you talk about, well, you can add your module for $5,500 versus a new stern for like $6,500. That's a whole machine. That's a whole new machine, new board. That's everything. A new cabinet. That's everything versus $5,500 for a kit. I don't think most people get all this excited about like, oh, it's a whole cabinet. Wow, with extra wood and everything. No, but it's still substantial. It is. But the reason isn't the kind of like what you get, in my opinion. I think the reason is that a whole standalone game has value on the back end. You get tired of Venom, you sell Venom, and you buy Jaws. If you get tired of Portal, you have to decide. I mean, yes, you can sell the module if you wanted to, But fundamentally, but again, only to someone who has the system. So basically, you have to decide you want to keep the entire system, and that costs you everything. So the thing is, once you get in on P3, you always have to have that question. You can't just have, like, the one and get a whole bunch of your money back. There's just not enough market, in my opinion, to really move a lot of modules easily. You can. It's gotten easier. Ever since Weird Al, it's gotten easier because more and more people have the system. But this is why their strategy has always been you get the system and you keep the system and then you just get more and more modules. They don't really consider, I feel, as a company, consider the notion of people moving these secondhand. There was a time and I not blaming the company for this but there was a time where some of their supporters in the community were downright vicious to people who were trying to sell P3 systems secondhand Like they were rude about it Yeah Insulting to them Like they were hurting the company
    39:30
    That doesn't happen with these other more traditional manufacturers. It's a given that things aren't truly bolted to the floor. The other thing, it's an aging system. Sure. It is a very much an aging system. When did this come out? Over 10 years ago? Announced around then at least. It feels like every other pinball manufacturer has upped their innovations and what they're using, the technology they're using, and we're still dealing with the same monitor, the same black box. We're still dealing with – and I'm being a little – I'm exaggerating a little bit because they did upgrade some of the things, but it's still an aging system that I don't think has a strategy to make the next platform. How could they? They better. If it's not. This thing feels older than anything else that's released. But it goes against the model. If you start having kits that only work with the new version,
    40:29
    that's undermined the promise to everyone who bought the old version. They can backwards compatibilize it. I mean, compatibilize. No, that's backwards compatible, sure, for people to be able to, like, use Heist in the new system. But you're basically saying at some point you're going to make people buy the new system to make everything new work. So let's say they come out and do Call of Duty on the new system. The old system won't play Call of Duty. It's not going to be forwards compatible. Why? It's not. Why? For 4K, for a phone game graphics? No, it's just 4K display. Yeah, it's the one you always bring up. That's a big one. There's no point in having 4K in this stuff.
    41:11
    At some point, this is going to feel like a 90s Corvette. You know, I'm just saying. It feels old to me.
    41:23
    10,000 old is an old hobby. There's good old, and then there's wood paneling old. Like, you know, just saying. The standard kit comes in $11,620 if you're wanting a P3 machine, plus you get an edge stripping on top of that. If you do want the extended portal plus the P3 machine, you're at $12,500. And then if you're adding that topper with the standard and the P3 machine, you're at $12,370. And then the grand total, if you've got the grand total, $13,250 for the extended portal with the P3 machine and the topper. $13,250. So they're still within the jersey. They're less than some JJPs. Yeah.
    42:10
    And they said likely it's going to take some time for production of all of this. So a lot of good stuff on this release, a lot of cool stuff. Looks like layout and the toys and stuff, they look fun. So for all of you with a P3, it's decision time.
    42:27
    Decision time indeed. But Jack said they had to hold their money. How many? Do you think they sell a lot of these? Yeah, I think they will. I think most of the people with the P3 will buy the kit.
    42:40
    We had a nice discussion. Where was that at? Happy Hour Hangout, when we were trying to guess how many units there were out there of the P3. Comment on the Facebook post or on Pennside, on the Pinball Show Pennside, about how many P3 systems you think are out there. Turner Pinball released Merlin's Arcade. Merlin! Merlin was the main theme of this last month. I'm like, oh my gosh. Or I thought a little bad for Turner Pinball because there's really no reason for CGC to have called something a Merlin edition. It almost seems like they were deliberately dickish about it.
    43:22
    There's so much Merlin stuff. Hell, I'm binging Harry Potter as we speak again. And I get it with CGC. You've got Merlin's magic. I know where they made it. Merlin's magic. I was just like, oh, what an unfortunate coincidence. So they released out of nowhere Merlin's Arcade. Two models, the Arcade Edition and the Legendary Edition, which is limited to 500. That's a pretty hefty number. That's a lot of editions. Stern shouldn't even be making 500 LEs. Yes, they should. Just wait. Keith Elwin deserves 1,000. Designed by John Norris. That's right. Dennis is very fond of designer John Norris. He has a lot of interesting designs. When's the last time he designed something?
    44:11
    There's that High Roller Casino. I believe. Golden Cue. Right, he did Golden Cue. Sharky's was technically John Borg. He was early Stern stuff, I guess. Very early, but his name was mostly made in the premiere years with Gottlieb. Oh, yeah. So we get the return of... What's his Fu Manchu, John Norris? He's got the Fu Manchu. I think it's the Fu Manchu. He looks like a badass still. Now, this design is reminiscent of 8-Ball Deluxe and or Bad Girls, however you want to kind of. I would argue just because it's got a bank of targets doesn't make it. But with the same flipper placement, it does. People are saying the theme is each night has a trade or an arcade game that they excel at, whether it's billiards, darts, air hockey, video games, shuffle alley, basketball, foosball, pinball. They should make the final. Is it the pinball wizard? It writes itself. Features of this game include a moving Merlin, other sculpted interactive figures, foosball spinner, which has been a lot of talk, additional spinners, and they look like the Pulp Fiction spinners where you can really rip them design-wise, barrel ball lock, a topper, and then the legendary is going to come with powder coat, Premium sound, RGB lighting, anti-reflective glass, and then more flat plastics for the arcade version. How do you feel about the art on this game? I liked this art. It was maybe the best art of the show. They do good art. And I respect that they were willing to make the primary color use yellow, which isn't done a lot in pinball. No, since this pinball party. That's right. Silver Slugger did a big yellow cabinet, too. Oh, yeah, Silver Slugger. Okay. Our artwork, I thought it was good. Solid. nothing to, we don't know the character, so there's no built-in nostalgia or anything. It's original. It's fun. Layout.
    46:09
    I thought you'd like this more than you do. I wanted to. Again, when I saw the original design, I saw the DNA of 8-Ball Deluxe in there, I thought, okay, I'm really going to dig this. And they made a number of modifications. It's definitely different than any other 8-Ball-esque layout that we've seen before. It just, it didn't work well for me. there's a lot of shots you need to make to advance these characters and this still is a relatively hard layout and I don't think it complimented the rules very well maybe you want me to really focus on the layout the thing I have to point out is that the foosball spinner it's not satisfying in basically any capacity not to mention that it's just sitting there like white maybe they're going to make that so saying aside that it looked unfinished. Yeah. It's just, when you hit it, it, again, with foosball, those characters spin because you're spinning a handle. The ball doesn't spin the foosball people. And so when the pinball hits this, it's just, it's like a Gottlieb System 1 plastic spinner. It's like, except those are even better than this. Well, technically, it's illegal in the game of foosball to spin your plate like that. So, anyway, my point just is that it's like, like the idea, I get it. But then when you see it in action, it's like they either need to make it out of a lighter material or booty ride it and just have it be a plastic spinner. I'm just saying, like, the idea of having the sculpt to make the game beautiful, I understand, but it's not satisfying.
    47:47
    It's not satisfying. It's not. I've never played Austin Powers. I've never seen one to play. It's like a full-figure spinner. Okay. All right. It's just not, like, we need more Mick on the stick and less mini me. Oh, okay. Because this is not, this is not, it's not satisfying. All right. So that was, I like the shot through the pops.
    48:11
    I always like a good shot through the pops. Yeah, so anyway, the low light is the foosball guy, but the, and I normally disagree with you on this, but when an eight ball deluxe design, the billiard shots, those should be drops. Mm-hmm. Not stand-ups. I agree. So unsatisfying. Because that takes away from it being that layout. Like, you have to have drops there.
    48:38
    Yeah, the drops, because of what they do with the ball, also help slow the ball down. So hitting the bank on those style games was a good way to help you get back control. Here, you just ricochet right off. And, I mean, just thinking about A-Ball Deluxe, I would honestly, I like the idea of adding a ramp to a Ball Deluxe design. I'm actually okay with that. Sure, and that's kind of like with Sharky's. That's what they did. The placement's good, but it doesn't feel fresh to me. Then the ramp here was fine. The barrel lock was cool. I mean, overall, the look of the layout, I liked the look. It does feel like some weird arcade visually, but the layout, especially with the rule set I just couldn't get into it feels like a bad medieval madness trip or something? no, I don't want to compare it at all to how medieval shoots well again, think 8-Ball Deluxe that is not a flow layout that is a point and shoot layout and so you have that but then you've got like get 84 pop hits or whatever and all this other stuff the rule set is more like medieval where it's like do X number of this shot and it advances something. Do you think they're pretty far along with the rules, jumping into that? I don't know. I do. I spoke with Chris Turner a little bit while I was in line or while I was in a four-person game. And, like, the way they got the rules implemented and they have, like, these banners that start to come down as you advance each character. I like the structure of things. Yeah, no, I think the rule structure is really good. I just don't think it lent itself well to this layout. Okay. But I'm good with the rules of the idea. The light knights and then the dark knights and they morph and you've got to play eight light knights, eight dark knights, four dual boss battles. And they've got goofy animations when you get in the modes. They try to do it kind of like medieval and make it kind of campy and fun. I think that was the right decision, but the layout was not the right decision.
    50:41
    Yeah, animation audio, I don't know if you could hear it much. Not really. But it's based on that artwork that's animated more than dedicated animation. And it worked for Ninja Eclipse. We'll see as it progresses if it works for this game.
    51:02
    I think what was odd were some of the choices upon launching a product such as this. It was odd how it came out. and then the decisions behind like we're limiting the Legendary, the LE version, to $500. It's just weird. That was weird. The price point is great. People like where the price is at. Like the arcade version is $69.95.
    51:30
    Technically, at this point, it's $4 cheaper than a Stern Pro. And then the Legendary is $89.95, so all the bells and whistles, and you're still under $9K, which is currently $700 under a certain premium.
    51:43
    So the pricing was good, but it just came out of nowhere, and it was some pictures, and that was kind of it. Do you think that they decided that given what's happening this year with releases, that they had to get it at TPF? Yeah, but there were still some clever ways that you could launch it better that would absolutely correlate with sales.
    52:11
    And they just didn't do it. And not that they just didn't do it. It didn't seem like they even thought about doing any of that.
    52:19
    I can't think of a game that came out without a trailer. Nothing. And I heard about it. I'm one of their dealers. You know how I heard about it? Joel Engelberth messaged me and said, Merlin's Arcade, question mark. and to be fair I thought he was referring to the at that point unreleased MMR that I knew was coming out that nobody else did so I'm like shit did CGC just drop that and I get online and I'm like oh shit no this is something totally different this is a manufacturer that I deal for but this is the first I've seen or heard of anything like this so then I rapidly was like Oh, shit, I've got to hurry up and plan action for marketing and sales, which is a weird thing for your sales floor. That's weird. It's weird.
    53:20
    I don't know. That's, yeah. So that's where I was at on it all. Looks like a cool game, though. And thus far for us, it's selling better than Ninja Eclipse. So it's selling.
    53:35
    That's good. But I don't think it's going to be a huge seller. And I really wanted to like it more than I did. And it's, like you said, this is a title, maybe you didn't say it, maybe I'm inferring. This is a title that sells because people get their hands on it and their feedback is great. Well, it has to because it's not going to sell off the theme. That's what I'm saying. Or the dazzle of a release. If you market well enough a release, you sell people on the idea and your vision for what it's going to be. But when you don't have any ancillary things to help you tell the story besides pictures and then a later stream on Kerry Hardy's channel doing an interview,
    54:21
    it's just 2025. It's just not enough. Not enough. It's got to be sexy. If you're selling something that nobody knows of and doesn't have a history, like, you've got to have sex appeal. I'm saying that broadly. Like, you've just got to have what people want. It just needs to be more thought out. And that's what worries me. Part of what worries the consumer base is, well, wait a minute. If we're not thinking of these things, then what else are we not thinking of on this game? They said it's going to take probably the majority of 2025 to build these, maybe into 2026. If you guys are interested in the details of this game, you can go back to Kerry Hardy. He did an interview with Chris Turner. What a wonderful man, too. He's like the sweetest man ever, it seems like.
    55:13
    Yes, he's very polite. He just seems so nice, so friendly. I can't wait to... I'm still waiting for Ninja Eclipse. So I'm looking forward to unboxing a Ninja Eclipse. And then I think this is a pretty game. I do like the whole fireball glass system that comes up with the trim, with the embedded lighting. That's awesome.
    55:39
    And it's a pretty little game. So I think it's going to sit beautifully next to Ninja Eclipse. And I think what they're creating here, that could be a small little boutique, especially the first three releases, and build upon creating something so visually nice, and if you can make sure the rules are fun and stuff and good shooting, then people will collect them just because it's a niche little collection kind of thing. Like, oh, shit, you got the Turner pinball machines? That's really cool, right? I think that that's probably where I would aim if I was this company, especially until you get some licensed themes.
    56:16
    Maybe they won't want that. But this was a deeper game, right? Yes, it was. Yeah. So, yeah, overall, what I liked about this, Dennis, the listener, I liked the art and animation, the overall look. Oh, the finesse flipper, the auto-tap pass. Oh, that was silly. That's cool. No. I heard you shitting on it. I was like, what? That's cool. There's no point in putting it. I get it. Like, I get the idea of wanting to experiment with tech stuff, but for a company like this starting up, I wouldn't be wasting effort coming up with things like this. I thought it was cool. I liked it. I'd have rather seen them get another $200 off the game and not include that button. Hmm.
    56:56
    Think the bomb was that high? Maybe. I'm just saying, like, if they could, that they got it under Stern Pro was great. I like it. If they could have gotten it more notably under, people would have forgiven more stuff. I like when companies come out with novel ideas that you can see happen over time continually. And something like this, I think, is needed to stand out. Something has got to help this thing stand out from the pack. And stuff like that, I think, does an overwhelming job, but it points you in the right direction.
    57:28
    So, yeah, those are some of the things I like, overall look of it. What I don't as much, I don't get the whole 500 legendary editions. And it's like $250 would have still been pushing it, I think. But it would have felt like people had to move more for $250. You're not going to sell 500 of those. The launch was very subpar. No videos, no heads up, just nothing. That compromised sales. And I got to say, what I didn't like, listener, are you with me here, Dennis?
    57:56
    The gelatinous cube, I know it's minor, but D&D came out with it. So I think at that point you're like, I know I spent a lot of money on these molds, but I'm going to have to scrap that idea. No. That's not. They're too small to scrap. I know. It's the same thing. And then they get kicked in the shins by CGC in their Merlin edition. So you know what? Quit asking the little guy to be the one. Maybe CERN needs to change their gelatinous cube. No, they came out the first. Look, I don't use any logic here. I'm just saying. And you're telling the little scrappy underdog that they have to make all these changes.
    58:35
    Ridiculous. They're trying to help. Unaffordable, too. I'm a helper. I'm a giver. Nobody is not going to buy that game over that gelatinous cube.
    58:45
    I like the moving Merlin. It's so cool. He moves around with his hands. Ah, Merlin. Okay. The big dog has entered the playground. Chicago Gaming Company. We didn't know if they would have anything for TPF, but they said, you know what? Not only are we going to have something, we're going to have two of something. Here's the long-awaited Medieval Madness remake, another run of these things, and I predicted it correctly as I knew it would be the case. I even told the owner, as we were discussing weeks, you know, heading up to this, planning everything out, The Merlin Edition selling so incredibly well that it makes you, like, rethink the entire industry and market.
    59:35
    They plan 1,000 units being made of this essentially LE without being limited trim level medieval madness game. They call them the Merlin Edition. It looks similar to the Royal Edition. It's got, like, metallic powder coat, RGB lighting, king of paint topper, XL display, upgraded sound system with the interactive speaker lighting, all of that, like the Royal.
    59:58
    Coming in at $11,999. So they're saying they're valuing their product a little more than they have in the past, which I think was due, frankly, the last couple of releases I think were underpriced. coming in 11,999, planning to make 1,000 units, and in that quick of a time, all sold. Gone.
    60:25
    How'd you feel about this release? It was nice to finally see them get out another Medieval Madness remake. I didn't care that they came up with a special edition with a special powder coat. Sure, sure. And the price wasn't so high as to really put people off who wanted one. They know how to straddle that one. It was smart. It was all smart. Were you surprised by how quickly and how rampantly they sold? No. They should have re-released this sooner than they have. So there's just been a lot of pent-up demand. And it's a known quantity. People know they like this game.
    61:00
    So you just have to build them and they will come. Well, the market is for, like, the owner, Doug, I speak with him frequently. And we were discussing, you know, do you think 1,000 units? Do you think that'll sell quickly? Do you think it'll be over time? What do you think? And I kept telling them, like, oh, yes, they're going to sell immediately. Like, your big question you need to answer, Doug, is am I going to, because these aren't limited, once we sell the 1,000 quickly, are we okay with extending ourselves to another 500 units or making maybe an SE model? Do you extend yourself? Do you make an SE? Some people were saying, basically, I don't need the topper or the powder coat,
    61:46
    like the other Cactus Canyon or Attack from Mars SE. You can still get the extended display. You can get, like, the RGB lighting, but you don't need that topper. I think they could sell SEs as well and knock another, let's see, $11,999. You could sell those for probably $10,999, and I think you could sell another $500 of those. So I told Doug, like, that's the decision you're going to have to make is how many more once, you know. And you're also balancing, do I want to keep this product, retain the value of it by not oversaturating as well? And that's a slippery slope too.
    62:26
    It's not easy decisions that one has to make. Because if you just short term, yeah, if you want to sell them, make 2,000 of these damn things. You'll sell every one of them. And then don't make it again for another 10 years. I might have leaned towards that direction. But with some of the limitations they have with speed and with potential tariffs and parts stuff, maybe they just played it safe as they often do and did what they did. But phenomenal, phenomenal release in all of that. It did really well. I love the blue. I'll just say that. I almost did that to my Ellie. I had an Ellie, Dennis, and I've seen somebody do a blue before, and I was talking to CGC people just hoping and pushing for a blue, and fuck, it looks good. It looks so damn good. They claim that they're going to start building this over the summer, and they aim to start shipping fall-winter into 2026.
    63:25
    But nobody has confidence in that, correct? I have no idea. Do you really have confidence that they're going to? And they're slow. No, I have zero confidence. and I was trying to be nice. Oh, yeah, this is positive. This is good.
    63:41
    Chicago Gaming Company also said, you know what? Why not? Let's just release the Cactus Canyon remake upgrade kit as well that we've been talking about for two plus years. And this was not the Taka TPF. Oh, interesting. Okay. What did give us the feedback on that? A few people I spoke with about it, and I did not go to an attempt to play it because the issue was a lot of people were like, Well, yeah, I went up to it, and other than the saloon mechanism, which was hard for people to see,
    64:12
    a lot of them couldn't get far enough into the game to really experience anything new. And so they're like, well, I can't, you know, I'm not, other than the look, like the mech, which there was a lot of criticism, there were a lot of criticism of the mech. Like if you weren't, unless you were short enough, it was very hard to see. Oh, to see the actual door kind of thing. And so given that, that was a frustration. And then a lot of people were like, I'd have to try it in a different setting where I might be able to get deep enough to appreciate the modes and such. But it just wasn't just, yeah. So, yes, I actually did hear people bring it up, but only to criticize it. But not like aggressively. It was just kind of like, eh, I thought it would be cooler. And that was it.
    64:53
    That differs greatly from the response on sales. Yes. Well, again, if you have a CCR, you got to CCRR it, or whatever we're calling it. The naming was a little interesting. They're naming it the Cactus Canyon Remake Lime and Sheets Complete Upgrade Kit. Okay, all right. So they're putting the Lime and Sheets It Factor branding into this, which that is... What do you think of that? I'm mixed on it, to be honest with you.
    65:26
    I know why they did it. and I think it is a nice tribute, but also it's also going to feel odd too, even if they're doing it for the good reasons. It still feels weird in my opinion, and it's wordy. I don't think – upgrade kit. Do I call it upgrade kit? We do know the Lime and Cheese upgrade kit includes a lot of stuff, regardless if you can see the little doors or not. Ten new modes, that's significant. Yeah, no, that's a lot. two enhanced modes. Saloon mechanism, which is not hard to see. It's really big. It's got displays of the people that light up. It's not very tall or normal height.
    66:08
    Visually, it's not that great of experience. The thing that you hit within the mechanism is hard to see. But the mechanism itself is quite large. They want to see all of it. Badge spinner. Forgot about that. You get a damn rippable spinner, too, that's a sheriff badge, which is very clever. It doesn't hit like a foosball thing. Yeah, maybe a mistake. Many new animations, new sounds, music by Rob Berry, never before heard original sounds as well, coming in all of that at a price tag of $1,249.
    66:40
    Now that's a kit price right there. I like that price. And so does a lot of people. This was a very, I knew this thing would sell well. But I can only base it on how many Cactus Kenyans we sold. We sold a lot. But, holy shit, Dennis, the amount of kits that we sold of this, I cannot explain. I'm at a loss for words. I can tell. The words can't be found. They're not even squeezing out. This thing freaking sold so many units of this. I didn't even know there was that many cactus games that sold.
    67:21
    This thing has been selling very, very, very well. So they claim they're going to start producing that this summer and fall as well before the Merlin thing or in unison.
    67:32
    But, man, we've been waiting. Everybody's been waiting for this thing, and people are eager for it. But maybe the sales are so good because it's just a deposit at this point, $250 deposit. Yeah, I mean, the pricing, I was worried the pricing would be more severe than what it turned out to be. Yeah, I was kind of. I mean, it's cheaper than Stern toppers. Which tells you everything you need to know about the pricing on Stern toppers. Well, that's a good argument. My arguments are always good. 100% of everyone agrees. Your portal overtaking Evil Dead for the shelping is a minority argument, but okay. All right. I wasn't even going to hit too hard there. Defense argument, I heard far more people talking about Portal than Evil Dead. But Evil Dead had a lot of people talking about it, so I don't want to understate. I'm questioning who you're hanging around then. And Evil Dead was, look, maybe it was because a lot of people had already played Evil Dead. It had been out for a few months. So that kind of took some wind out of it. Yeah, because I was surprised that Evil Dead still had the gusto that it had during CPF. I mean, that's a word. Well, look at the sales surge on D&D. And D&D's been out for quite a while. And I heard very few people really discussing D&D at the show. But it clearly was getting played. And it's clearly getting purchased. So I'm excited about this kit. I've been looking forward to it. My argument is I think rules-wise, rules-wise, it brings it to, if not surpasses, the depth of its brothers and sisters.
    69:07
    And right now, Cactus Canyon has more rules than Monster Bash. I'm sorry, people. It just does. But I think it takes it to the level of Attack from Mars and Medieval Madness. and from a technical standpoint makes it more deeper than both of those.
    69:25
    But will that translate to, what will that translate to? I don't know yet until I play it. But I'm excited to have Texas Cane right amongst the medieval madnesses and the attack from Mars of the world.
    69:40
    I think it's great. And I think that selfishly, this kind of concept, Dennis, could really, really work well. for CGC in the future. I don't think they should ever do it again if they can't get this going faster. This is bullshit. Okay. And I'm tired of praising someone that took years to finish something. Let's at least bring up the fact that the visionary behind it did pass away.
    70:10
    I'm not saying that that's a two-year delay. I'm just saying that threw a proverbial wrench into the Linux system, or the fucking C++. I don't know. I was trying there, people.
    70:26
    They're slow at everything. Yes, they are. And I'm tired of acting like we should just give them a pass for it. So let's see if they actually build these medieval manises and all that in a decent amount of time. But quite frankly, all I want them to do is build games until they can prove that they can walk and chew gum at the same time.
    70:46
    Are they blowing bubbles or just chipping? I don't care. They have great build quality. They make really good decisions. They have some of the best pricing in the industry. It's pathetic about how slow they are this many years in. Do you know what was done, though? And my dander is up for no reason other than I need to have my dander up at one of these companies, and they're going to be dandered. They're the dandervide ones? Yes. We've got so much to point at. I talked to them. You know this from the happy hour discussions. Because I talk to people who buy every CGC, and they readily admit that this is a massive frustration point for them. Yeah, all of us CGC lovers out there, you guys know who you are. We all get frustrated, too, and we don't like to wait as well. But we just so love what they produce. So, yeah, I mean, it's why we collect other things, because we can't rely on them being quick. But we would rather them be at the pace that they are than not be at all. So sometimes, man, sometimes there are exceptions made because stuff is so good. I get it, but I would rather them not work on future upgrade kits until they should spend that time figuring out how to actually assemble with a decent speed. Okay, got it. Maybe read some documentary or watch some documentaries, read some books on how the Model T was developed. Maybe start there and figure out how an assembly line works. Henry Ford. They're, like, slower than everyone. This is, like, where I've, in the past, you know, why was Spooky always the worst one about getting their build quality up? And then you have God-tier build quality CGC that is, like, I don't know what the deal is. Are they, like, hand-inspecting every screw? Why does it take them so long?
    72:32
    You're not wrong. Dander. What about, do you have Dander towards the Futurette that was released? No. I'm okay with Futurette. Oh, my gosh. Now, I will say, because I created this on the bias, everybody please keep in mind that I produced this in 2021. So when they said, hey, you know that unreleased featurette, because not too much inside baseball here, but I produced and did the featurette for this Cactus Canyon remake. when we filmed it, 2021, it was in Josh Sharp's garage. He, myself, Nicole, my wife, and Lyman, we filmed it in his garage with drop sheets. I've advanced a lot since then, Dennis, is what I'm saying.
    73:24
    But they said, you know, out of respect for the passing of the Lyman sheets, we're not going to release this, which understood. So we kind of just canned it and I didn't think anything would ever come of it. And then closer to this being released, they reached out and they're like, hey, can you run with that? And I went back and I watched it. And I'm like, my feedback to them was, do we have to? No, I don't.
    73:49
    Man, I've grown a lot in quasi filmmaking since then. And they were like, no, it's great. What are you talking about? Like, it's phenomenal. Post it. And then I'm too close to it. So I did spend, you know, a handful of hours going back and cleaning the whole thing up. But I was happy that it was able to see the light of day. And it warmed my heart to have people experience some of the last interview video stuff of Lyman Sheets of his life. so I thought it was extremely important to our hobby to have that come out and still it feels weird, very bittersweet when you watch it. I don't know if you listeners have seen it, but it's so great seeing an icon in this industry, to see him excited and overjoyed, like pure excitement and pride when it comes to creating pinball. and it shone through because he couldn't really mask his thoughts and emotions. Limey couldn't, and you've seen it in the featurette.
    75:10
    So I was very proud to be able to be a part of getting that out to us hobbyists so we could experience that. It's like seeing that passion from somebody that we just love and respect so much was awesome. So it was cool. I would encourage you, Dennis, or listeners out there who haven't seen it, go watch it because it's fun. And stay around for the bloopers at the end because you see the lining crack and other stuff. It's just so cool, so cool. Have you seen it? I think I might have showed you yesterday. Yeah, that's the thing is I think I saw it, but when it was unreleased. Yeah, yeah. Or at least a part of it. Yeah, so it was good. I was saddened to see that, I mean, that's the way the media goes. It wasn't shared anywhere, but it is what it is. man, if people only knew this fun, fun hobby of ours.
    76:03
    People like it, even if it is important to the hobbyist. They're not going to share that. Speaking of not news, you couldn't help but share Jersey Jack Guarneri at TPF. Were you sitting in the seminar? I don't attend those seminars. Oh, boy. Jersey Jack Timbo. But I had people messaging me from the seminar room. So me and Pepperidge Farm knew, even though we didn't visually witness it ourselves. So Jersey Jack Pinball, at a seminar for Avatar, the making of Avatar, Jack Guarneri tells the convention attendees that they need to save their money because their next game is none other than Harry Potter. What? unveiled it right there. And people were shocked.
    76:58
    Like the type of shock, like, it almost felt like he just unzipped his pants and out he rolled a 10-inch dick. Like, everybody was like, why weren't they more excited? Everybody was shocked. They were like, what is going on right now? I would have reacted the same way. Aren't you happy? Yes, we're happy about it, but we did not see this one coming. because you couldn't see it coming. They didn't show you anything.
    77:26
    All right, the dander, double dander time. Oh, no. We got extra dander. Don't be a mogul. What?
    77:36
    All right. You know, we talked about, like, the naming of upgrade kits and stuff and what's tasteful and what's not. this, I can't call it crying wolf because it's true that it's coming out, but like, this is like the third time Jax tried to sabotage sales by bringing this up. Yeah, he was trying to drop the hammer. And, well he did though, I mean. And I'm surprised Pikachu, because he dropped the hammer on his own avatar game.
    78:07
    I, maybe a sacrificial lamp. I mean, don't get me wrong, but, but I'm just like, he's all like, you know, because he's not, you know, he's saying how they have all the movies. They have all the assets. It costs them millions of dollars and a decade worth of work. Like, but you're not showing us anything. And it's just like, it reeked of so much desperation to me. And I'm not in the room. Again, I'm pepper charming this. And I'm like, how insecure on the sale of the game must you be to do this? Or do you just you just like I mean that the only conclusion I could come to is like that you as a company are terrified that King Kong is going to sabotage Harry Potter It like it Harry Potter When it comes out, it's going to do great. Yeah, but that's assuming that he is speaking purposely on the behalf of a company. Well, that's what I'm, yes, I am assuming that.
    79:06
    I would say that there, I would guess maybe this wasn't planned. Well, then why did he do it? I don't understand. Zach, I don't understand. Why bring this up? Why, if it's not ready to show, again, the news that it's Harry Potter doesn't surprise anybody who wasn't living under a rock. Correct. So, I, again, the, what was the quote? It was like, I would not spend a dime out of your pocket until you see the game. Yeah. Okay. To go on, he said, I wouldn't spend anything, nothing. It's going to be spectacular. If you think Wizard of Oz was something, you're going to love the game. Oh, my God. He claims, like you said, it took 10 years to get the license and, quote, X millions of dollars. He went on to say, we have all of the movies, all of the assets. It's Harry Potter.
    80:01
    Don't spend money on anything. Don't buy anything from Stern. Okay, I get it. Don't buy it from Turner Pinball. Don't buy Portal, the game of the show. Don't buy it. Evil Dead. They sold them all. Don't care. Give them back. Tell Spooky to take them. All right. Here's the thing for me. It's Harry Potter, so I'm not sure this is possible. I'm going to ask this of you anyway. Is it possible to actually set the expectations too high and actually let people down by doing something like this?
    80:33
    By doing just this? I don't think so. I think that just it being Harry Potter is setting expectations to a level that will not be met regardless. So this add-on I don't think helps, but what was the motive behind this? That's the more important thing. Why did this happen? Do you think it was an insecurity thing? Do you think it was? I tend to think this was a person. I'm just trying to put myself in their shoes, their loafers. What does Jack wear?
    81:08
    I don't know what he wears. Orthopedics? I have no clue. But if I'm him, well, I'd like to think I don't do this, but he's probably walking around seeing other people, other companies get attention. New products being launched. And we know that Jack loves to be a showman. He loves it. Dating back decades, he loves it. and when he hears of, he sees a big Stern booth, he sees even little Turner pinball announcing stuff. We've got Medieval Madness. He's like, shit, they've ran with that title how many times? People are blowing through money for that thing? They've got Portal? Portal, what the hell is that? How are they going to get the attention? And he's still, you know, he's an older guy, so he probably still thinks TPF is like the thing. and he's up on stage, and they stick a mic in front of his face, and somebody asks him what's coming next, and he says, you know what? Fuck this. I'll tell you what's coming next. It's Harry Potter. So you guys and him and all over all this bullshit that, you know, you guys are playing all weekend, but brass tacks here. If you don't stop spending the money that you're spending, you're not going to get Harry Potter, and you're going to want it because it's what this company has been working for for 10 years. Sure, buy avatars. Sure, by Godfathers. Okay, by Elton John's. But I don't think he gave a shit because he's thinking to himself as I, he's not thinking to himself as what I've said. What I'm saying is, just like I've told you listeners, when it comes to sales of games, 90% of the sales happen already for Avatar. They've already happened for Elton John. So, yes, it's a bad look. And, yes, it makes it slap in the face to, like, the designer sitting next to him that created Avatar.
    83:02
    But he's thinking he's elsewhere. He's not thinking about that. He's thinking, I've got a big 10-inch Harry Potter, and I'm going to let people know it.
    83:14
    Right or wrong, it did make people talk. I don't like the move. But do I really think it hurts sales of Elton John? We want to think that, but no, it doesn't. It doesn't hurt sales of Elton John. You know what it does? It does make people think, maybe I should hold my money a little bit. I think it probably was a little effective. Maybe not the right way of doing it. And maybe a tacky way of doing it. But I think some people in business look at things one way while other people look at things another. That's what I'm saying. Is that fair? That's a fair argument.
    83:55
    Sure. But no, I don't think it'll affect sales. We'll talk about here in a bit. He appeared on the Pinball News, Pinball Magazine, Pinball Podcast to really dig in even deeper. Do you think Harry Potter is the biggest release of this year?
    84:11
    License-wise, absolutely. Oh, yeah. 100%. Do you think it's... I don't think it outsells King Kong. Hmm.
    84:21
    Man, it's so tough. I don't know. So tough. So, ladies and gentlemen, that is what Dennis and I are referring to as Trough Jam 2025 Phase 1. All of that good news. That was some juice, wasn't it? What are we going to see in Phase 2 and Phase 3 of Trough Jam 2025? Because to me, we've got some stuff coming up. I think Phase 2 is going to incorporate Barrels of Fun, their next game, as well as Stern Pinball's next game. Let's talk about that. Barrels of fun, Dennis. Yep.
    84:56
    Timing-wise, there. I saw them. They were at TPF. I think they had a plan to have something for TPF. They looked so sad sitting at their little table with labyrinths. Did they have a little table, too? They had a table. It was a little? They had a table. I think it was the regular size that everyone else gets from a hotel. But, yeah, I think I saw three people sitting there. Had a few labyrinths with them, but again, there's not this huge buzz because the game's been out for a while. So it was just like, my thought was, why are you here? Unless you had thought you were going to have something much more interesting. Yeah. I mean, they're Texas, so that's kind of a home show. Yeah, still, but why bother getting a booth if there's nothing to show? I'll give them a lot of credit. Did you see this promo that they're doing?
    85:43
    I love this. Like, they're pushing their last, I don't know how many they have to make, 80 or so. But I think this is just Ideally this is This is an awesome idea Like if you buy If you have a labyrinth Or you buy one of these remaining labyrinths They're going to put you into this giveaway For game two For free Like you can win game two And we know there's only What They're only making a thousand Those odds are pretty Pretty damn great I think it was a very very cool Marketing move there And something tells me that game two comes out and every game two that sells is going to put you in to win. I like that they're thinking outside the box. I think it's really cool.
    86:27
    So for those of you who have a labyrinth, one of you is going to shit if you win an entire free awesome ass game two. You're going to shit. And they don't have to do that but I think it's... But should they have come out with their next game before Harry Potter and King Kong? I mean, Jack said don't spend your money, so I guess it doesn't. They were going to be in trouble no matter what. Man, the timing is tough for these guys. This game is not going to do as well for them. It's just a tough year. Labyrinth had a lot of breathing room.
    87:07
    Timing was good. There was all that buzz about this new game. It came out with Elton John. it came out right with Elton John and with Uncanny X-Men. You as a seller know Elton John had to get its legs. Initially the reaction was this is not the right theme for pinball and then when people played it they realized it was a really good game. It had stiff competition. It had the newest terms. Stiff competition. Uncanny X-Men? That was with its .2 code. It sold crazy. Initially, yes. For a new company it had strong competition. And it exceeded all of it. I say ant to all of it. They weren't up against Elwynn, and they weren't up against Potter. Oh, sure. That's a once-in-a-lifetime situation to be in. What? Elwynn has, like, a game a year. What are you talking about? Yeah, but then Potter? Okay, well, that's fair enough. Because, you know, it takes ten years and, like, millions of dollars to get Harry Potter. Exactly. So that lines up with an Elwynn? Yeah. That's even tougher competition. They're doomed. Let's move on. Are they? No, I'm just trying to make it dramatic. Oh. Well, I was going to feed these people a little bit of something. But I've seen their marketing moves now. It sounds like they're going to be launching right in the thick of things, which, man, I wish they would have got out a couple weeks ago. They clearly couldn't, or they would have. Oh, no, they could have. I'll tell you that. They could have. Hmm. Well, they clearly didn't. What this company is doing, for better or worse, Dennis, I'm being transparent with all of these people. Why are you so transparent? Because life's too short to lie and bullshit people. Take it for what it is. Either you like the truth or you don't. But one size fits all.
    88:53
    They're so focused on doing it right. What I mean by that is, remember whenever they launched this company, man, they did it right. They checked all the boxes. They presented a product that checked all the boxes. They had games in boxes. Speaking of checking boxes, they had games in boxes ready to go. They had rules that were already pronounced. They had people behind the rules in the conception of it that people loved.
    89:23
    It just, the rollout of the video, it just did so phenomenally well for a theme that most people didn't care much about. that they want, that's like, it was important to them to set a tone for their brand recognition, their whole brand. And they don't want to break that yet just because of getting in front of something. Financially, maybe they should have, though.
    89:46
    That's the argument I could see. I could see somebody making that argument, and it's hard to argue against it.
    89:51
    But the reason they're doing it the way they're doing it is because they want to stand for something that they hope is a long play for consumers in the future when it does matter, like having games ready to go in boxes, having rules where they should be, being able to show everybody what they need to see in order to make a purchase,
    90:16
    putting as much in a game. Like, they're going for the branding of doing everything right and creating a world under glass that other companies have fell off from. So we will see if those principles and those strong adhesion to those principles pays off or not. In the short term, it's going to be tough. And how could they have predicted this, Dennis?
    90:42
    You know, as they were planning. The rumors of, I mean, no, I don't hold them responsible for that. What do you do, though?
    90:51
    Do you just say to hell with it and launch early and hope like hell? I don't think a company of this size can afford to wait around. I don't either. They don't have billionaires backing them. They've got to, the line must move. Yeah. Unless you're like, some of these companies are okay with just laying off everybody.
    91:09
    Some of these companies aren't. I think they're launching like right in the thick of the rumored King Kong. We know that they're having a media dealer day on April 15th. This is Barrels of Fun. Tax day, April 15th. Tuesday. So two Tuesdays from now. and they've sent out the flyers and stuff like that, the advertisements. We also know that Stern Pinball is going to have a dealer media event that rolls on April 16th and 17th. That is, you know, dealers are meeting April 16th at the factory, and media are meeting the 17th. I don't know when these games come out, though. If we're talking about Phase 2 of TROF Jam 2025, listener, we're talking about the next couple of weeks being releases. I think Stern Pinball usually doesn't release a game after they have this media event. So if they're having it 16th or 17th, I think that Stern's going to announce before that. I don't know what day. I mean, when do they usually launch? They like launching on Tuesdays, I think. I'm looking at my calendar now. So we could either have a launch this Tuesday the 8th, next Tuesday the 15th. I don't think it's after the 16th or 17th. we didn't get a teaser yet. We usually get a teaser.
    92:28
    It feels like a teaser on the 11th, launch on the 15th of a Stern pinball. So where does that put barrels? Now, barrels is fine having people sign NDAs and hoping like hell they don't say anything.
    92:41
    I don't. Would you try to get, if you're barrels, do you try to get out in front of King Kong or is it so late that it doesn't matter? I don't think it's ultimately going to make a very big difference so it's a certain thing which either way because people now know that the media invites are out to all the media folks for both so everyone knows that King Kong is imminent if that wasn't known maybe it would make sense to still try and get out early I just don't think it's going to matter at this stage I'm kind of with you they did tease about something being epic, the game being epic, and bull eating.
    93:25
    Do we think it's Dune? I still do. I think we do, yeah. I think it's Dune. And I think it makes sense to have a sandworm eating bull. A bull eating sandworm. Yeah.
    93:40
    They're also making this marketing push that I do appreciate as well. Have you seen this as a push for value? Hashtag included.
    93:48
    I don't know if you've seen this, Ken. Maybe, but it didn't stick with me. The new thing right now is all these manufacturers are having their own non-reflective glass that they're selling. Spooky's done it this last couple weeks with ghost glass. Multimorphic's doing it with their whatever glass. Stern has been doing it. JGP's been doing it. Everybody's doing it their own non-reflective glass.
    94:12
    So has Barrel. Yeah, I noticed that. It's like, is there some company that's putting everyone's stamp on it that everyone has a really good price or something? I don't. But Barrels of Fun is doing that as well. But they're pushing it as hashtag included. So you're going to see, again, that's their brand thing. Remember when they came out with Labyrinth, there was one model. You don't have to choose between stuff. You're getting one representation of their model. And that's what they're doing again. They're saying, hey, it's great that everybody's got glass. Ours is included. It's great that everybody, you know, offers Shaker Motors. Ours is included. And I think we're going to see a lot of continued hashtag included stuff because they're trying to separate themselves, especially in the times that we're in now. You know, you can keep upcharging things or you can just include it all and you get the value for everything already included. What I do know about this game, here's the good news for Barrels of Fun, Dennis. and listener is that I know enough about this game now that thankfully they're going to sell a lot of units. Even in this situation, this is not the ideal situation to be selling a new product. Would they sell more of this product if Harry Potter and King Kong wasn't coming out or potential Yeah. Yeah. Let's be honest. Yeah. But because they're doing what they do with pinball machines, They're going to be okay They're going to be just fine And because of What I've seen and what I've known I'm fucking stoked And everybody else is going to be very happy Whenever they See this game I like where this company is headed And thank god Their timing might not be good But fuck What they put into pinball machines Sure makes up for it And I think everybody the list continues to grow for King Kong everybody wants King Kong, hell you want King Kong don't you I mean I'm sure it'll be great but until I see it you know it doesn't go on my list oh my gosh I just can't wait for it it's going to sit right next to Godzilla oh god, Keith Owen man he continues to just shine as the North Star in this industry do you think that there's any way that that game can be a flop No, I don't either We know it's going to have an awesome layout I don't want to get Elizabeth in trouble Elizabeth Gieske, she's a programmer Over in a damn good one Over at Stern Pinball She even said in a stream recently She said, Keith Elwin's next game Is his best layout yet Even I was like, oh shit Now Elizabeth is a true hobbyist So she loves this industry and hobby. She's giddy like a Ray Day. So I could see her saying stuff probably when she's not allowed to, but it played well because you can tell she's telling the truth. She really feels that way. So that's super exciting.
    97:21
    That was my other point when we were talking about Tim Sexton. Well, we're talking about Stern here, so it works.
    97:26
    Tim Sexton leaving, everybody's like, oh, my God, what does that mean for John Wick? What do you think? Are you concerned? No. He was a lead programmer, though. Are they going to abandon it? I wouldn't assume abandon it. They have a lot of people who work on code now. Yeah. Someone else can, I'm sure, get it across the finish line. You know why I'm not as concerned? It's because look at the all-stars that have come out since. To be fair, there's not really a lot of Tim Sexton talk. There's a lot of Ray Day talk. Look what he did with Metallica now. And there's a lot of Elizabeth Gieske talk. and those weren't even lead programmers at this point. I mean, I don't know what went on behind the scenes, but I'm not worried about a John Wick being a Bane because if we've got people like that around, I'm actually excited. I'm good. I think it's an exciting thing. Anything else we need to know about King Kong, Dennis? It's going to be big. And, well, I mean, we'll have a lot more information here soon enough. I think we will. But, yeah, get on those interested lists now. I do think they'll do 1,000 L.E.s, and I think they should. It should just be a requisite for Keith Elwin releases.
    98:43
    Pinball Brothers. I don't know where to put Pinball Brothers. If we put them in Phase 2 or Phase 3 of Trough Jam 2025. TJ! 25! I don't know when they're going to release. It seems like they're teasing Predator, but I don't know when it's coming. Do you have any insight? No. If they can afford to wait, they should, because they are going to be devastated by the tariff.
    99:06
    Well, and that's the other thing. What do you mean, if they can afford to wait? Shouldn't they try to get everything out as quickly as they can? Or, no, it's already in effect, isn't it? The tariffs are in effect. So what would they wait for? Negotiations? For the tariff to go away.
    99:21
    Damn. But they won't know if it would come back again, even if it did go away. Exactly. It's unenviable. But if the status quo is maintained, they, as a company, are doomed.
    99:36
    Strong take. Who's going to pay 20% more for their games? Because they're in Europe, right? So that's 20%. And this isn't in their price. This will be the FedEx invoice when they charge the customs to the customer. And you won't be able to hide from it like people avoid paying sales tax. Not the customer. Yeah, I mean, whoever does the import. So it's like, are you going to eat 20% and hold the price the same? Well, no, because 20% is higher than our margin. And that's true for so many industries. But anyway, I'm not here to rant about tariffs. We have a part later where you want to talk about them. So in the context of TenBall, like them being an overseas supplier, they will struggle because I imagine most of their sales are to the U.S. market. I imagine so, yeah. So anyway, like this is, they, I don't have any, I have no suggestion. They are going to be in a lot of trouble if they are as reliant on U.S. sales as I think they are, unless something changes with domestic tariff policy.
    100:43
    We're going to put them in phase three because I think we're going to wait a little bit here. What about Jersey Jack Temple? I think they fall in phase three, as we talked about with Harry Potter. But the announcement of dropping of hammers was in Phase 1. I think Phase 3 of the Pimiverse comes when Harry Potter is released, I would guess in May. Okay, well, what? Okay, because I'm like, yeah, they said by the end of Q2, so it can't be much later than Kong. Yeah, well, yeah. But, yeah, it feels like March is Phase 1, April is Phase 2, and then Phase 3 and beyond is May. Additional information from Pinball News, Pinball Magazine, Pinball Podcast They had on Jack Winary For some elaboration on some of the comments that he made at TPF And he went further and he confirmed Eric Menier is on design As we all rumored And this one is one that I'm excited about and did not see coming David Thiel on audio engineering Harry Potter Shit! He is an asset He can make some audio. I think people like feel stuff even more than Scott and Easy stuff. Is that fair? Yeah. I think they do. Hedwig's theme is in the game, too.
    102:07
    I could have inserted that music. Sorry, people. Jack even said there's going to be three editions. Essentially, a collector's edition, a wizard edition, and an arcade. You heard it here. An arcade edition. where nothing is going to be removed from the different games regarding mechs and toys. They're not taking out the guns at Rosen's Upper Playfield, Dennis.
    102:28
    They're not. He did say that you're going to see the same art on the Wizard Edition and the Arcade Edition, and the CE has some special art package coming, I guess, for that extra money it ought to. The topper, you're going to see a topper on the CE and the Wizard Edition, but they're going to be probably different toppers. historically, that's what they do.
    102:50
    There's two things I really want to talk about here. One, that they're going to have a third edition. They're bringing back the standard model. And one A, Jack's saying, you all wanted a pinball machine under $10,000? That's my impersonation of Jack. I don't think it's too bad either. Yeah, but I think it's going to be $99.99. Still under $10,000. You know, no, it's not. We round up.
    103:15
    We round up. I do. I absolutely hate hearing, I get it because it's the accurate number, but I hate that gamesmanship and I hate pretending like that dollar makes a difference. I do list my stuff at $99. I know you do. I know, and it's a surprise. It's a surprise. You know why I do it? Because it works. I always take it up to that next dollar level because that's the real value. It takes me more than a dollar to write that check. Still, $10,000 is substantially lower than the $12,000. What? It's only $2,000. You say that all the time. What's $2,000? You sound like me now. Yeah. What's the tip? Yeah, they got it down to like eight. I could see it. I don't know. I mean, I think it's smart. It's smart for this time. They're trying to get it in locations. Is that enough?
    104:06
    Is $10,000 enough to get it in locations? A few. Here will be my question for you. Let's assume it's the $99.99, okay? And let's assume all the other pricing holds the same. So I guess the Wizard's Edition would be the $12,000 version, right? And the CE is the $15,000. Will this get it in locations more be worth the number of people that are going to say, you know what, to save $2,000, I'm going to go ahead, since it's the same game with the same art, and give up the Radcals, ArtBlade, Shaker, and Topper, and they actually make less money than they would have because more people are going to go ahead and buy the arcade edition rather than the wizard edition.
    104:50
    That is a great discussion because you may be right. You may be right because they're so busy trying to get into locations that the collectors might sneak up on them and say, I'm fine with the arcade edition because historically the standards were their worst selling games. But that was also when prices were a lot lower. And it didn't take all that much more to get up into the middle tier. At this point, especially if you're like, I really want a Kong,
    105:26
    saying, you know, taking $2,000 out of your planned expenditure for Harry Potter to be able to put to another game, I'm just asking the question. And this is assuming that they continue with the Elliot $12,000. Yes. That is a big assumption. I don't think that they're going to lower it. So even at that, at $2,000, you're right.
    105:47
    Radcals, ArtBlade, Shaker, and Topper, at least when Stern does this, they differentiate the Art Package a lot of times. If there's no difference in Art Package, you can get stuff powder-coated. Sure. There's not enough back glass to really warrant, like... And some people might be like, eh, I'll add a Shaker separate. And I don't got a ceiling for a Topper, and I don't care about the rest of it. And the toppers, when they come in on those LEs as included, they're nothing substantial. It's a couple of flat plastics.
    106:15
    So I think you have a really good point there, Dennis. Maybe the LE will kind of go away. Okay. Yeah. I like that thinking. The only thing that saves the grace of the LE is that if they have a really nice powder coat package. That's going to help a little bit. if it stands out, but if not, you're absolutely right. And that's a big gamble there. They think that they're going to sell quantity on this one, which is why they're trying to pull that lower model down, but it may phase out of the middle model on them. They've got to be careful.
    106:53
    Jack also said this game's not limited. He said that, so here's what I'm gaining. He said that on the podcast in passing. It was a bit muffled kind of thing. mid-sentence cutoff kind of thing.
    107:10
    But I also heard from TPF people saying that dealers were being told there that it's not limited. It's going to be an open CE.
    107:23
    Oh, that's not a good idea. You order for a time period on how many CEs are going to be ordered, and then they're going to cut it off. Oh, they're going to do a time limited? Yeah, like they did for, I think, dialed in maybe they did that or pirate or something. No, something was like that. Well, if it's time limited, that might not be a bad idea.
    107:42
    Man, can we not tell that if this is all true, they're really trying to maximize the dollar here. They're trying to make as much money as they can with this title. It's their best opportunity in years. In years. It's hard to fuss about it, but it's just weird to change so much stuff. My other thing is, and I was saying earlier, here's a couple things I wanted to discuss. Wizard Edition. What are we doing there? Wizard Edition? Really?
    108:14
    It's like Platinum Edition for Elton John. Rhapsody Edition for... I'm not a fan. I'm really not a fan of that. It's kind of confusing.
    108:28
    You know? The Wizard Edition sounds cool, but is that higher than the Collector's Edition? No, I don't like them renaming the middle tier option. I don't mind arcade edition. I like that kind of better than standard, honestly. Sure, that's fine. But the wizard edition, that's kind of weird. But they can't really call it a limited edition. It's not limited. JJP, he talked about how many standard editions they've made in the past on PNMP, UNP. He said they made 130 standard editions of GNR. 130? That's low. We had one of them in Kansas City, too, because I played it quite a bit. And only 150 standard editions of Pirates of the Caribbean. So, of course, they bailed on this.
    109:10
    Yeah, yeah. It was not a popular model. But they also took out stuff on those games. Well, some of them they did. Yeah. Like they did on GNR and they, what was the other one you named?
    109:25
    Pirates. Was Pirates a different? Yeah, they took out some. It wasn't as substantial. But, man, those were kind of different times. Because we could say dialed in really. It was even true with like, yeah, with like dialed in and stuff. The standards didn't sell all that well and they didn't really take out anything. Like dialed in just had white GI and white lighting. Or lighting, but I meant max. Yeah. Yeah, it didn't really.
    109:49
    Man, you really kind of threw me on the whole, might they sell more arcade editions because there's not that much difference. I wasn't ready for that one. Hmm.
    110:01
    Okay. Harry Potter's coming. I think it's going to be an incredible seller. From what I know about the game, it's going to be an incredible seller. I'm glad that they do have reportedly all the assets, all the films.
    110:19
    I think it's going to be pretty awesome and pretty fun. And it's never going to amount to what everybody has in their head, of course. Of course not. But it's still Harry Potter. It's still fully licensed And When you see it You will see Harry Potter Into a pinball machine And that goes a long way For me and it will for Thousands of people But can they build them You're talking about CGC Dennis You think they're ready to build 5,000 units of something again like GNR Uh Yeah It'll take them a while Yes, but we should be past all the supply chain issues. And now that they're in Chicago, they're going to have access to that same labor pool. And, hey, if Stern's busy laying them all off, rumor, rumor, rumor, then JJP can pick them up.
    111:15
    Yeah, that's true. But it is just a rumor because nobody's getting laid off. Rumor, rumor, rumor. All right. So that's Harry. Harry fucking Potter. Man.
    111:27
    I'm so excited to do this. I'm so excited. All these releases. I just can't freaking wait. This is what we... This is pinball. This is what I've been waiting for. I've been waiting for Harry Potter since I got into this hobby.
    111:40
    I've been waiting for Dune since two years. I don't know. I've really been waiting for Dune. But, yeah, I haven't been waiting for King Kong either.
    111:49
    Spooky pinball. This is out of our faces. We're going to finish out the news here. Spooky pinball. Evil Dead now officially sold out. Done. 88. Gone. you know what? Good for them.
    112:04
    It really put them over the edge at TPF. That was a good showing for them. I heard a lot of great things about Evil Dead at TPF. I think, honestly, a lot of people are talking about how beautiful the game is, how packed and loaded the game is, right? You've heard that? Yeah. But one of the big things I don't think people are focusing enough on, and I think is what is increasing the sales of this game, have been the reliability. I don't think enough credit is being shown. Maybe people are just tempering their expectations, but these things thus far, a TPF even, I heard that they're tanks.
    112:40
    They really, compared to issues that Spooky have had in the past, when they said this is truly 3.0, like, they mean it. And they've been holding up very, very well.
    112:54
    Any thoughts? No. No, I mean, good. But that's what I know personally. That's what has made you hesitant on the company in general. I mean, I've actually owned a Spooky Game, which is more than I can say for a number of other brands. Sure. But, yes, it's been an area where I wish to have seen faster improvement. But if they've got there, they've got there. And that's the important thing. And they got there in enough time for the subsequent machines they have coming.
    113:22
    Do you see this thing they're doing with the box art? They've got art on the box. Uh, no. They've got, the box itself is like art now. Branchy art where it looks like things are reaching out of the box and stuff. Super cool. It felt very collectible-y for me. A lot of, you know, figures that you buy in the marketplace. The box is just as important as the figurine you're buying and stuff. I don't know if it was a good move. I don't know if I would have done it because it's an expense that you just don't need at all. But nonetheless, very cool. A little controversy about intellectual property and them using it on the boxes. But that's nor here nor there. The box art is cool. And congratulations to everybody who got Needle Dead.
    114:14
    Man, Spooky is doing a lot of things smart, Dennis. They've carved their own little area of when they release games. They've kind of really pinpointed how many units they should be releasing. They've got their production cadence. Like, I'm feeling good about that company.
    114:36
    I'm waiting for the other shoe to fall. What, shoe to drop? Is that the phrase? Yeah. Why would a shoe drop? Where does that phrase come from?
    114:44
    Well, because you have two shoes. And a lot of times when you take it off your foot, people just want to fall on the floor. Okay. So, one shoe's dropped. So now you're going to expect to hear the next one drop. So you're just waiting for that to whack.
    114:58
    A lot of people have been waiting for the boot to drop on the pinball network. I don't know why I love that so much.
    115:14
    The pinball network. What a sweet, awesome idea that some people had. What was that? It's probably been five or six years ago. When did we create the pinball network? I don't remember. It's been so long that we don't even survey veterans. It was pre-pandemic. I remember that. Okay. Because we saw a lot of growth in the pandemic when people were stuck at home and they just decided to become content creators. We were creating this before pandemic, though, weren't we? I think so. Yeah, we did. It's just that we saw a big surge in interest to participate at that point. Yeah, yeah. So we've been through a lot over at the Pinball Network. Pinball Network, for those unfamiliar, it's just a collaboration of media creators, content creators, and pinball, just for the fun of it, helping one another out, teamwork approach to content creation and supporting one another. We started that, yeah, years upon years ago, and it really served its purpose. It went over very There were Out of the gate there were some things I don't even want to get into that I still get mad Because it was deliberate To just be antagonizing And effective Unfortunately And it was effective too There's a history of the pinball network Really interesting stuff But at this point Dennis and I have been discussing Over months now And we started conversations over a year ago. Yeah, about a year ago, where we feel like it's kind of served its purpose. I thought it was a great experiment to see how an industry and a hobby environment would react to compiling media creators together. And it doesn't feel like it is as needed anymore. February 3rd, 2020 was when we did our launch test podcast. Wow. Okay. So, yeah. So, what Dennis and I have been talking about, it's like maybe we start phasing it out. and that's what we're doing. The podcasts are the tricky part because of the shared RSS feed and hosting. So that's really the only complicate. The streamers, because they maintain their own channels, won't have to really do anything. But the podcasts, that's why you've started to see like with Triple Drain, some of the Ball Chronicles have said things because they've been in the process of trying to off-board their shows so that they can exist on an RSS feed where, for those that don't know, and why would they know, but for those that don't know, like, Zach, like, 99% of the time has to upload everyone's podcast to the TPN feed. So everything is completely reliant on him. If he's out of town, I try and do it. They're independent RSS feeds. I was maintaining those manually. Yeah, manually. It couldn't be automated. There's no API for it. So just all of that, like, we're just putting in a lot of work, and everything was a sort of treading water at this point. And we lost so many content creators who after the pandemic just you know they started doing other things and they weren stuck making content And I often joked you know it a rare feat when you see a content creator consistently continue after two years. There are not many that do it. There are not many. And so, again, a lot of this is natural atrophy that we would expect. I think we don't really promote it. We haven't been promoting it in a long time, so we haven't been trying to recruit people, which some of that's our own fault. But there's not anything new that I could come up with to do with it that I would want to put the effort in to do with it. Yeah, that's the key. And I'm just one person, but, I mean, that was my take. There's about 20 different ideas I have. And if you guys want all of the details as to how this went down from beginning to end and in between, join us exclusively as a Pinball Show Club member where we're going to dive deeper into TPN, the purpose it served, and what really happened behind the scenes.
    119:16
    And, of course, number three is going to be a shocker. I mean, there's no ifs, ands, or whats. Yeah, so TPN is signing off. Farewell. And so, yeah, all the TPN stuff that you guys like, go hit them up individually. We're very proud of what all we created as a team, and we are appreciative to all of the content creators. We love all of them and give them hugs and kisses as we all continue to support one another and continue creating media for you behind people's ears and eyes. And mouths.
    119:53
    You're going to want to go listen to the exclusive episode to really, really hear about the real deal of what went down.
    120:02
    Will shade be thrown? I haven't decided yet. Listener, that's such a true honest response from Dennis.
    120:15
    Oh, man. Don't dander that man up. Let's talk about what dandered him up before. Let's talk about Jersey Jack.
    120:25
    Your CGC that got the most dander. All right. So that's TPN. Thank you all. We have to thank some people. Speaking of thanking, the Screaming Goats. There are wonderful followers and listeners that are at the Screaming Goat level of our exclusive membership, such as Rodney the Bobcat. We've got to thank him. He's not signing off anytime soon, right? Right, Robbie? Right? Oh, shut the fuck up! Oh, yeah, we are going to be, I don't think anything's going to change. People are still going to tune in to the pinball show as they always do, just as they do Triple Drain or just they do Final Round or George Fisher Streams or anything like that. Nothing, I don't think anything can change. So keep coming back. But thank you to the Bobcat. Thank you to the Bumblebee.
    121:14
    Buzz, Buzz, Steve. Appreciate you. We appreciate the Panther. Did you see any of these people at TPS?
    121:22
    Rob, the Panther? I don't know. No, I did not. They're busy people. I mean, I saw a number of people. I don't think I saw any of our screaming goats. I wonder if we saw a screaming falcon. Thank you, Frank.
    121:36
    I'm trying to think. I'll say whether these people have bought into Phase 1 or 2. I think Rodney's buying into Phase 1 or 2 of Troph Jam 2025.
    121:47
    Jabs, I don't know if Jabs is. Panther, yes. Panther's in on Trough Jam. Pretty much all collectors are going to be in on Trough Jam. The Falcon's in on Trough Jam. The Fox, thank you, Joe, for the continued support.
    121:59
    Poor Joe. He is struggling with these art blades for Stern. Not as big a deal if you funk one up because you can get a replacement art blade. They're $90. They're expensive, but you can still manage it. But if you funk up the art blade of the embedded expression speaker lighting, like a Metallica, that's a bigger issue. Because it's a specialized art blade that goes around the light bar and not as quick to fix and easy to get the part for. So he fudged one of them up. And, yeah, we're getting in parts, and I think he might have fudged them. Love you, Joe. The bell. Thank you for the continued support, Charlie. I know Charlie was at TPS. No. Yes. He was. I saw him hanging out with Emoto and stuff. So I know he's there. He always hits up John Borg. So he was sending me pictures. Wish you were here. He's usually my TPS buddy, the bell. The dude, I don't know if William was there. This is our concern, dude. No, man, nothing is fucked here. Nothing is fucked? No, man. The goddamn plane has crashed into the mountain. William, you better be in the next happy hour hangout. I think William got his new game room set up. Nice.
    123:20
    Got a lot of space in there. Oh, yeah. The dude. Uh-oh. Cockadoodle rooster. I'm going to rock out with my cock out. I don't know. Have I ever met Josh in person? I don't know if I have.
    123:36
    Hmm. Surely I have. Hey, big cock, reach out. Have you met us in person? I couldn't forget a rooster like that. An Aqua Velva. There's something about an Aqua Velva, man. You shouldn't. Do you smell him? I mean, it's hard to smell over the baseline BO of TPF. Did you smell any cheap cologne there? Yes. Man, what is it with these guys? A lot of these guys. That's how they afford the Art Blades. Do they just snag it whenever they're at Target or Walmart snagging deodorant? They've been using Brute since they were a kid. That's all they know. Really? That's all they know. Discord, over if you're an exclusive club member of the Pinball Show, we've been talking about all the releases, been going back and forth on Multimorphic stuff, on the MMR stuff. And every once in a while, there's some nugs dropped in there because some of these people weren't surprised about some things. Just saying. Remember, I was teasing. What was I teasing? I was letting people know. They were like, oh, shit, Merlin's coming. And I was like, oh, really? Maybe there is something else.
    124:43
    Sign up today at patreon.com slash the pinball show. You're going to want to. You want to hear all that TPN stuff? It's there. And hang out with us at our live happy hour hangouts coming up later on this month. Tune in to episode 174 for further details. Maybe one of the things that I was most looking forward to when returning here after taking a break was something I can't live without.
    125:10
    And if I have to, you're going to have to kill me. Often imitated, never duplicated. It's the one, the only, pinball market trend. Tariff edition. I like your style, dude.
    125:28
    How's that? I want to try it. This is how you do it, Dennis. This is a tariff edition of Pinball Market Trends. You guys asked for it. None of you really did, but we'll pretend. So I'm going to give it to you. And we're going to go trending down first because when people talk about tariffs, we're scared. We're worried. We don't like this idea. More money? No. We don't want to pay more. So trending down in general. Tariffs or no tuning up? Whatever affiliation you are politically, I just neutrally want to be in there. So you trend up whatever you want to. But truly, trending down is pinball pricing on the secondary market right now. Have you seen these prices, Dennis? I've not looked, though I don't know why secondary market prices would relate to the tariff.
    126:12
    Big picture here. Sit back, relax. Bear with me. But pinball pricing and the market in general is going down. Thus, governmentally, they're making a move to try and what they think will help the economy long term. Thus, this being included in the tariff edition.
    126:33
    See? It worked. But pinball pricing on the secondary market is down. You can go on Pinside right now. Ooh, that's a good price. Ooh, another good price. Look at that price. But keep in mind, also trending up, tariff edition of Pinball Market Trends, pinball pricing on new games. All right? I think that we can't help it. We're going to see an increase in price on the incoming new games.
    126:59
    Can you argue that? It's going to have to go up, right? Assuming the tariffs hold, yes. Yes. I don't think that they have the margins to be able to absorb the full cost. I don't think, nor do I think they will want to even if they could. It's to the moon or nothing. They might want to if they think it's going to be very short term. Okay, I can see that. So what we're having here, we're seeing downtrending pricing when it comes to the secondary market. You can get some really good deals right now because the market is a lot softer right now. than it even has been for years. But turning up is going to be because of these tariffs. You're going to see an increase in prices just the way it is. Now, what happens is the poles of each of those pulling forces are like magnets, and they're pulling towards one another. They don't want to continue expanding into the universe. They want to try to pull back towards one another. So they're constantly fighting. You can't have something going up in new pricing and have the used stuff going down. That creates too big of a spread. And with likely pricing increases, so too will be the value of the existing games in your collection. So fear not. Right now they're going down, sure. But if those new games keep going up, what you're going to see is the values of your current games in your collections. They're going to maintain or go up. It's going to take the sting out of those dropping prices that we have been seeing. So see? Silver light. Balance. What do they call it? Zen. I was going to say equinox. Not equinox. This is a balloon that flips. We have not seen a dip in purchases since the rumors of tariffs.
    128:37
    I'll say that again because I know that many of you do not believe me. We, me as a company selling pinball machines for my profession, have not seen a dip in purchasing since the rumors of tariffs. You don't even believe that, do you, Dennis? No, I do. we've not seen a dip in purchasing because of the rumors of tariffs or the market dropping right now. And I believe that's because there is an immediate balance from reciprocal action. For example, yes, theoretically, when pricing increases substantially, the consumer base is going to likely reduce their new purchases, right? The sky's falling. Everybody, we're not going to buy shit. But that is once the pricing does go into effect. We're not there yet. So right now, people are purchasing pinball machines at actually a bit higher rate because they're going to try to save money before these increases.
    129:33
    And I tell you, if Stern Pinball increases pricing, if they do, I'm not even saying they're going to. Maybe they don't. But if they do, on the next cornerstone, guess what else gets increased, people? Every premium and every pro. Everyone that is in production gets that increase. That's just the way it is. So what's it going to be for all these main features? Especially CERN. Right now, if they're selling Deadpool premium, when they increase and say King Kong premium is this much, that's how much Deadpool premium is going to be. So we have seen an uptick, actually, and taxes are returns right now, too, which is also helping. This is a true market trend. Hot damn. I finally earned my key pair. But this is what we're seeing. So you're going to get an increase in people buying games right now, even if you as a collector don't like that narrative. It's just simply the truth. So people are buying games right now because they're like, oh, shit. If they jack up the prices $500,000 and I've been wanting a Jaws, sure as hell I'm not going to wait until then. Or maybe the dealers are going to get rid of their free shipping that they're offering for students. No, they're buying them right now. This is a hobby. We all have disposable income. Let's at least be real with one another. This is a major source of enjoyment and pleasure in our lifestyles. we can tell ourselves we're not going to spend any more money on anything but just the essentials, right? Maybe not even eggs anymore. But then we react with our feelings and we tend to purchase to help us get through stuff that makes us sad and frustrated, right? It's like stuffing your face with ice cream whenever you're depressed. It's just how it is. It's market psychology. Plus, for those out there that have collections, us pinball people, they're like our reserves.
    131:19
    I'm telling you, they truly are. And you listeners know if you have more than two pinball machines. When things get tight, we still want the new stuff, but maybe we trade in a game or two or five to fund this new stuff so that we can at least feel like we're not spending money. You know, I'm just moving stuff around. My reserve's a little bit. It's just what we do as collectors. This isn't just pinball. Then over time, as we start breathing a little bit easier, maybe we add a game to fill out the collection. I'm doing a little better, got a little raise, you know, market's going up. So we add a game. So that makes us feel a little bit better. So we just move reserves around right now. This is the same thing people do in most other collectible hobbies. So when people scream, the sky's falling, everything's burning, clever, cute meme, just know that it may be that way for them or for a select few, but what got a lot of us in the position that we are right now to be able to forward multiple pinball machines or collect these things, it also makes this all very much an inconvenience for us and unsettling at times, but not really close enough to a degree that it's going to make us just start our own fires or cash out on what we enjoy in life in general. It's just, I think we try to tell ourselves that. It's just not really the way it is.
    132:37
    Your thoughts? I think you are mostly wrong. How surprised am I? Not at all. Trending down? Unfortunately, tariff addition to pinball market trends. Trending down is the decreased hit range, though. I'll admit, manufacturers do have and will have a much smaller window of error with product decision making. from the product itself to even something what I think the majority of people still think is small, the launch of a product. That window of hit range is much smaller. It all will matter at least twice, if not three times as much for the foreseeable future. It's just you can't get away with stuff. You're going to have to bring the goods or you will, the avalanche will, it's going to roll over you. And I do predict, also turning it down, I do predict that we're going to see a dip in international sales and even, as Dennis alluded to, international manufacturing. I do.
    133:47
    Because the premiums that individuals in Australia can't, the premiums in which they had to pay for already, getting imported products from the USA in pinball machines, and then expanding upon that exponentially, yes, I do think that will lead to a dip in international sales overall and even those manufacturing internationally, like the Europe's. I think that does happen. So you agree there, right, Dennis?
    134:15
    Yes. Okay. Overall, in this pinball market trans-terra position, the pinball hobby marketplace has ever changed. and our little hobby bubble will be affected by it positively and negatively. Even though a lot of the narratives, it's just we want to focus on the negative. I get that. Based on what's happening in the world, this is going to happen. But it will move forward and it will help develop better products, better games. Because if it doesn't, then we as consumers are just going to decide to spend $80 on a new Mario Kart game instead. I'm joking. with Adobe. But when something goes up or down drastically, it's got a ton of space to rebound back. Never forget that. We all freak out whenever something plummets. But by the same inertia, it generally will come right back up, sometimes at the same speed. Everything balances itself out. Tariffs or no tariffs, because us hobbyists own games and we play deeper into them than the novel arcade playing of the 1980s and 1990s. We, whenever they talk about Golden Age, no, this bullshit. We, as in us hobbyists, we are objectively in the golden age of pinball. I don't know where the manufacturers are at, what the margins and how many units I don't give a shit. We as hobbyists objectively, this is the golden age of pinball. And knowing what I know about the industry and what's on the horizon I assure you, I have zero doubt that this golden, our golden age is going to continue for years to come. And Dennis and I, we as hobbyists, we're going to be here to enjoy with you every bit of the way.
    135:51
    And that's been your tariff edition of Pinball Market Chains. But Dennis strongly disagrees with it, I think. I have never heard somebody be so wrong about understanding tariffs. I'm kidding, of course. I've heard lots of people be wrong about it.
    136:09
    There is no upside. There is no positive impact for pinball. There is no positive impact. Oh, I'm not saying it's a positive effect. No positive. You said... It's not on fire. ...a positive and negative effects. Yes, sir. There is no positive effect. We don't need protectionist policies in pinball. They're almost all made in the United States, so there is no advantage to pinball with the tariff.
    136:35
    This guy's not following. We're not on fire. I am amused that you point out about discretionary income for getting the sheer number of entrepreneurs whose knock-on effects of this could destroy their businesses and completely undermine their income levels that they currently operate under. It's all interconnected. You made a lot of assumptions, and this is going to touch almost everyone occupationally. It's just how it is. Oh, absolutely. And so I can't share with you any of this thought that people are going, and the companies can't pivot and make games better just because there are tariffs now. So we're not going to see any improvement in the games because of it.
    137:18
    And it only dries up money into taxes. So it just takes money out of the system. There's no benefit to the industry from it. There's zero. I don't think that people are going to stop buying stuff they enjoy in life. Not all of them, but a lot of them won't be able to. And you can just call them all chicken littles, but people by the end of this year will have lost their jobs and lost their businesses. If these hold directly because of this, they will not be buying Harry Potter now. There's a huge range of that position and the position of nothing is wrong at all. I think that people get caught up on the polar ends, and the truth is, for the majority, is in the middle. That's all. No, I disagree. Fair enough. I think a lot of people out there would tend to agree with me. I do. Maybe. But some of the stuff you've mentioned about, like, the used pricing and stuff, understand, like, if they're tariffs for a while and the tariffs go away, all that additional money you had to pay to get a tariff game has evaporated. That's not going to be in the value anymore, assuming that the companies bring their pricing back down, which I think they will have to do. Normally companies are reluctant to, But I think they will have to do because this is going to devastate sales. Yeah, but that's like covering your basis for like, that's almost worse. The sky is falling. When do you want it to fall? I can make the argument it's going to fall now and everything's horrible and it's on fire now. Or if that doesn't work, then I'll say that even if it comes back up, then your value is going to plummet in the future. I can't live that life.
    138:58
    There's no way that we continue to go down a hole when objectively we all are still experiencing pleasure. We're all loving it.
    139:09
    Prices will go up because there's just additional tax costs on the new stuff. And if people have less money to spend, the demand for the used stuff is going to go down at the same time. You can have them move both by, you know, they can move bidirectionally. We can see additional value decline on the used market because of the state of the economy, not because of the tariffs on themselves. To me, it's the argument of minimum wage. The new gains go up. It's the minimum wage argument. What minimum wage argument? It's the minimum wage argument. We've got to increase minimum wage. And then when we do that, the entities that control everything are just going to increase their shit too.
    139:46
    Yeah, but there's plenty of economic modeling that shows that when you increase minimum wage by whatever percentage you want to say, let's say it's 10%, prices don't go up also 10%. They go up by a lower amount than that. So that's a false equivalent. The problem is objectivity does not really matter in the world that we live in anymore. It doesn't. There's a spread, a 50% spread, where one section of people will think one way and the other will think the other, which is true. Honestly, in 2025, sadly, we will never know. So my argument is just as strong. Numbers don't lie, Zach. You will see it. When you sell less games about the end of this year versus last year, you'll understand. I have heard, Dennis, and listener, I have heard, you will see it, that quote right there, for fucking six years. We didn't have terrorists for the last six years. But we had everything else. We had a pandemic. We had this. Everybody wants there to be fire and brim. Everybody wants everything to be horrible. It's not about one. And when it's not, people will just push it. I get why you have to say this. I don't have to. I believe this. I do understand why you make yourself believe it. And the evidence proves that it's been true thus far. No, what? So it may be in the future. This is a completely different scenario. No, I don't think so.
    141:02
    The one aspect that I don't know is what percentage of foreign material is used to build an American pinball machine. Nobody knows that. I wish we did. The companies know it. Well, yeah, they know it. So that's the question about impacting the pricing of the pinball machines. But really, does it matter? If there was no impact on the price of the machine, the thought that the economic state of the world is not going to dramatically shift to these are sustained long term is an interesting theory. That's the COVID card. Everybody, even when they didn't have to pay anymore and stuff caught up, people were still overcharging because they were playing the COVID card. I do agree on that. I think that would and will happen, too. The difference is we still had low unemployment with the COVID card.
    141:51
    People were working remotely and all the rest of it, and there was that brief economic downturn period at the start of the shutdowns. But we got past that pretty quickly, and the market recovered pretty quickly.
    142:02
    What we don't know is if these tariffs are going to, like, is the administration going to cut a bunch of deals and they're going to go away really quickly, or is this going to be sustained long term? If it's short term, like you noted, pricing currently isn't impacted, and this will be all about nothing if it's short term. However, so far, versus the other bluffs that happened with Canada and Mexico earlier in the year, we've already seen the market damage just with the short term changes because these ones are not rumors. They're in effect right now. Duration matters, and it could all work out. but if the tariffs hold true, what you think is going to happen will not happen. You will be wrong.
    142:47
    I promise. Promise all you want. I promise. It's simple economics. I get it. I get a lot of y'all didn't study, actual study, hardcore economics. I understand.
    143:00
    There's a reason why all these economists are in agreement about this. Not to get too political. This has nothing to do with ideology. This is simply the science of taxation and how tariffs as a form of tax works. I think for better or worse, 2025, it doesn't matter about science. It just doesn't. I know people don't believe in it, but do you think people are going to spend money they don't have? With what credit that they don't have? I don't think, I'm convinced that it doesn't matter anymore. Statements such as, you'll see you're wrong, you didn't study, you're not smart enough. That's why we're in a situation where we are. I don't expect people to know economics. Not at this level. Terrible, incredibly complicated. And this is not my strength area either. But the fundamental misunderstanding about how they fundamentally work is not doing anyone any favors here. And you can make all sorts of really weird Pollyanna assumptions, and that's fine. And if I'm wrong, I'll be wrong, and everyone will have my – if I'm wrong, it's better.
    144:01
    Yeah, that's the position a lot of people – If you're wrong, we're fucked. Yeah, a lot of people put themselves in that no-lose situation. I've seen that over the years. A lot of people do that.
    144:10
    Some people just have to explain what's really happening now. And that it really doesn't, I don't know. Like, things can change the market not because numbers and all this bullshit. It's because of emotions. It's because of fucking, like, rumors and stupid bullshit and assumptions. That's what really changes financial markets. But the stuff that's happening right now isn't rumors. No, it's not. There is emotion in it. I absolutely agree. There is emotion in it. But you've looked at this, I feel, in a vacuum. As I should. The niche market of people listening to this and being hobbyists. Money doesn't come from pinball except your money. So you're ignoring what their income status is. You seem to have this assumption that everyone who has money will always have money, and thus they have discretionary income, and thus they can buy anything that they want forever and ever. Money are so impulsive that they don't bank on bad shit happening in life. My assumption is a lot of people with money, they set little situations that if shit hits the fan, they're going to still have bread to eat. I don't disagree with that. But you're saying that they not only set aside the money to make sure that they can eat, but they set aside the money so that they can keep buying all the fun shit that they buy, too. And that's not true. And it is true. That is what people do. Is it the same level? No. It absolutely is. COVID is objectively a way to show you that. I may be the stupid one, Zach. Maybe I'm the only one out here who, in a recession, actually still spends the same discretionary level that I do in a robust economy. Maybe I'm the fuck-up who didn't properly bank it right. I don't know. I'm saying the dip in which, even if there is a dip between now and 2020, that dip is not substantial enough to say the sky is falling. People still have collections as they continue. Sure. They will. People want pinball. It's what makes them happy. They'll find a way to have it. That's why I talked about the reserves. They're not going to buy as much. That's why I talked about the reserves. That's not my point. Never mind. That is my point. I'm done with this discussion. That's my point. I'm done with this discussion. You are incorrect, and I'm done with this discussion. Email us at thepinballshow at gmail.com. See, this is the gold right there. I think this is going to make people sad. No, it's not. It's going to make people say, you know what? It's about time in media we have some differing of opinions where, you know, both people can have good points here. I think. We'll see. Only time will tell. We've got to finish it out. I'll give you all a little dose of regular market trends. Training up this week is lime and cheese and joshua. I talked about it before. Because it's true.
    146:48
    I think we're going to get even more from these two. I think that because it's been said behind the scenes that Lyman and Josh were not just working on Cactus Canyon. There you go. How about that? Now, I don't want to dandrify Dennis by talking about when it could come out or anything. Lord knows I'm with him. I don't want to talk about that because it'll never happen or it'll happen very slowly. But just know that trending up is the efforts that they put into making Cactus Canyon truly a game from the 21st century. Thank you. All's trending up is that post-TPF bump of D&D. Numbers don't work. I only work the facts.
    147:33
    Often imitated, never delineated. This is what makes pinball market trends what it is. This is what people want, Dennis. It's not the numbers. It's people. They care about what you feel in your stroke. I think they care about what you feel. And Dungeons and Dragons did take a post-TPF bump. Not a dump, but a bump. Nicely done. All's training up is Evil Dead. It's sold out. 888. You guys were worried about the values of your Scooby-Doo and your Texas Chainsaw Massacre. Well, don't worry as much. Because now with these being sold out, the value will sustain. And honestly, if you were trying to sell an Evil Dead, if you were one of the few that had one three weeks ago, I think you have a higher value of it now. I really do. Now, once you get 700 of these made, the value will not be as high as it is now. But I think it's as high as it's going to be probably right now. All's turning up is James Bond LE. A little cornerstone that, speaking of taking a dump, it did there for a while. Code got better, but it still didn't really progress numbers-wise on the secondary market. Now James Bond LE is taking that, I'm almost going to call it the Gomez bump, which is like this. Gomez, over time, his LEs tend to bump up for whatever reason. Look at Batman. Look at Deadpool. His LEs are like this fine line, and they age so, so well when it comes to value over time. but what doesn't age well, turning down, apparently it's Blues Brothers and ABBA. Because that's what I've heard from Dennis. You said Blues Brothers, you tried playing that game? Yeah. It just wasn't. It was lackluster. I thought ABBA, you said, was junk too. It might have been Joel that didn't like it. No, I didn't play ABBA. I did have someone come up to me when I mentioned I hadn't yet played it and said it's not worth your time to play it. So I didn't. Also trending down is Guardians of the Galaxy For whatever reason Those things were, because they don't make them anymore They were holding value pretty good Almost Metallica-esque before that Remastered release But for whatever reason I don't know the ideology behind this But Guardians have been traded in at a higher rate Lately, and I've seen on the marketplace I've had to price them lower Than they have been in the last year So, substantially so Oddly enough, trending down Guardians of the Galaxy alongside high-end games. Some of these high-end collectors are worrying that the sky is falling and they're getting out while they can. They're doing the same with their stocks.
    150:15
    And as strategists will say, hold up, hold it, easy, easy. There might be no need to sell, sell, sell right now. But there are some of these guys with their high-end collections. I'm seeing some of these high-end games. You're not going to get the value. Just hold out, hold out. Unless you just don't see yourself playing it, then yeah, get rid of the shit. Because Harry Potter and King Kong are coming. And also, turning down the last thing, turning down, I fear, some of the Trough Jam Phase 1 games are turning down. I think they're going to be overshadowed by upcoming titles and products. I hope they got the sales that they were looking for initially, like the MMRs and the CCR kits of the world, because I know that they got the sales immediately that they wanted. But the other titles, the other Phase 1 stuff, the Merlin's Arcade, the Portals, I hope they got what they wanted because I do not see a long-term sales tale on these games. That's just the power of theme and other manufacturer strength. And deal of the week this week on Pinball Market Trends with Toy Story 4LE. Buy, buy, buy! I had this thing for like $89.99 at FlippinOutPinball.com. For you listeners, because this is a very special 173 episode, we'll slash the price. I think I have it down to $87.99 now? $86, something like that. I'm going to take it down to $79.99. My, my, my! The fucking sky is falling. Oh, my God. I got to settle it all. You got to get rid of it. Get rid of it all.
    151:41
    Now, some people are going to take that, and they're going to try to skew it and say, see, he's mocking people that say this guy. And, no, it's not that. It's just I choose to think and to be in a better, healthier place mentally. And, you know, we can affect what we can, and we can control what we can. and there are some balance in life that people have to have. Your world outlook does not always have to be worst outcome. It doesn't. A lot of the perception of the way you think is how you will live and how you will experience the world. And if all else fails, what do I always say to myself? If all else fails, just move to a fucking island and I'll sell boogie boys. And I'll love life. It's all good.
    152:25
    And that is me just being here reporting facts because numbers don't lie, neither do I. I'm the one, the only pinball marketer.
    152:36
    Dennis, where can people find you? They can always email at eclecticgamerspodcast at gmail.com. Not the pinball network at gmail.com. I mean, you know what? Oh, shit, we did it. No, we have an email, yeah. I know the pinball show. Yeah, maybe don't email there, though. Yeah, it might be. Domain is open.
    152:56
    Pinball show at gmail.com. What else? Oh, yeah, follow us, like, subscribe, Facebook, support us. Look at Dennis and I. We have so much fun on here, and we push and pull one another to a degree for your entertainment. Hit us up with that support at patreon.com slash the pinball show. Because think about it. Where else are you going to get this? As of right now, you can't. So show that love, show that support, and we'll keep having fun over here and keep danderfying myself and Dennis. STTM Straight down the middle of a video series that I do Where we did a Cactus Canyon remake feature Go check that out, share it Lord knows the quote unquote news sources Don't And the sponsor of this show is none other than Flippin' Out Pinball When I buy my pinball I buy from Flippin' Out From Toppers, Uppercase, I've got it Flippin' Out When I take a pinball I take Flippin' Out Bye-bye, bye-bye, bye-bye, bye-bye from Flippin' Out. Bye-bye, bye. Product showcase this week. It's got to be the big ones. Harry Potter. Barrels of Fun's next game. Rumored Dune. Stern's next rumored game. King Kong. Pinball Brothers. Predator. Get them. Harry Potter, look, right now, I can guarantee you a spot. You want a Harry Potter CE? Boom. Zach at FlippinOutPinball.com. All you got to do is go there. Just go there right now. Email me, and you get a spot. Pre-owned games. We got them on the Flippin' Out Pinball Facebook page. We got Venom accessories in stock. Dungeons and Dragons, the post-TPF darling in stock. Metallica Remastered back in stock. Get you one. Free shipping, too.
    154:37
    The Uncanny X-Men Johnwicks Jaws. The Jaws Premium is coming in this week. But we've got all the games. Get on those lists. Trade-in programs. Trade-in your game. What I said about the reserves, people. Let's say you're going to take a big hit here, but you still want to stay in pinball, and you've got five games, but you still want the new stuff. Oh, my God, what am I going to do?
    154:57
    There's like two or three of them you don't even play that much. Trade them in. Downsize. Up the quality of the new stuff so that you can have the new stuff to play. And then a year from now or six months from now, if all is back to normal, add one later. But you can still stay in the hobby.
    155:15
    Toppers, expression lighting kits, shaker motors. We've got more shakers. Oh, the headphone kits. Certain headphone kits back in stock. Only like 10 of them, though. So they're still tight on supply. But you can get them.
    155:29
    And then flipping out pinball media channels. Joel over at Flippin' Out YouTube has been doing tutorials for Guardians of the Galaxy, Evil Dead, and The Mandalorian.
    155:39
    Dennis, teach these fine people something. Well, they really need to teach us something, I think. So they should write in to the pinball show at gmail.com. And let us know if they are in on Harry Potter. I know they haven't seen it yet. Okay. It's impulsive. People are impulsive in this hobby. You're in on that. And given the information shared that the mechs will be the same and the art will be the same between the arcade and the wizard's mode, let us know. Have you decided? Are you going to buy the arcade mode? Or are you going to go ahead and get the middle tier wizard's mode? I'd like to know. Maybe we'll get a little anecdotal examination. God, that one's so good, too. You almost convinced me. And you're going to get a C. Probably. But honestly, if there's something I don't like about the CE, and I was okay with it. You'll get one anyway. Yeah, I'm like, I can't get it anyway. Come on. It's pretty private. Why you even pretend? You are probably correct. I'm not probably anything. You'll see. That one I will concede to. You'll see. And always practice safe pinball. A lot of people are going to be telling you to buy, buy, buy. Some people are going to be telling you to sell, sell, sell. But I think the theme of this episode for me is live, love, pray. microphone test one two three one two three skype is going away goodbye skype just like tpn i think yes maybe maybe skype and tpn are are exiting stage left together holding hands going off into the sunset yes I'd like to think that I wouldn't care now I'm thinking of who's the top I don't know Skype has fallen into shadow a long time ago Skype has definitely fallen as Microsoft poured more and more into Teams TP into the bottom poor TP