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The Pinball Show Ep 98: Stairway To Hydra, Chewbacca Jesus, & Spirit Pudding

The Pinball Show·podcast_episode·1h 54m·analyzed·Apr 25, 2022
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claude-haiku-4-5-20251001 · $0.037

TL;DR

Pinball Show Ep 98: Deep Root retrospective, Stern production updates, market pricing analysis, and community contests.

Summary

The Pinball Show Episode 98 features hosts Zach Minney and Dennis Creasel discussing industry news, Deep Root Pinball's collapse files, production updates from Stern (Rush code v.93, Deadpool shipping delays), American Pinball's upcoming appearances, and market trends including persistent high pricing. Notable segments include a humorous analysis of Deep Root's Gladiator whiteboard design philosophy, a TPN Babies photo contest, and Craig Bobby's analysis of why pinball prices remain elevated despite supply chain improvements.

Key Claims

  • Rush Code v.93 is a large update containing 5+ gigabytes of data with new Cygnus X1 Book 1 Voyage Wizard Mode, Challenge Mode, Clock Bonus feature, and hidden Insider Connected achievements

    high confidence · Craig Bobby's Stern News segment and Zach's follow-up commentary on the update size and features

  • Deadpool Pro and Premium shipments beginning first week of May, with Flippin' Out Pinball expecting to fulfill only approximately 30% of their back-order due to massive demand

    high confidence · Zach Minney's production update statement: 'Probably 30%' of backorders will be fulfilled from upcoming shipment

  • Stern has an estimated 6,000-8,000 unit backlog across Godzilla, Rush, Mandalorian, and Deadpool with total order value between $30-50 million

    medium confidence · Craig Bobby's market analysis segment; uses 'estimated' language

  • Mandalorian toppers have been pending for nearly one year since the game's release, with no announced features, pricing, or release date

    high confidence · Craig Bobby: 'It's now coming on one year in May...since the Mandalorian was first released' with 'Presumably, supply chain issues continue to plague the release dates'

  • Led Zeppelin toppers are being run again due to massive backorders, with Flippin' Out holding approximately 50 topper pre-orders

    medium confidence · Zach: 'word on the street is that Led Zeppelin toppers are being run again right now' and 'We have like 50 still in order'

  • April run of Rush Pros have shipped, with Rush Premiums shipping over the next 1-2 weeks, and Avengers Infinity Quest Pros/Premiums nearly complete

    high confidence · Zach's production update segment citing shipping timelines

  • Deep Root Pinball's Gladiator game design included concept of rising action progression (Slave→Gladiator→General→Emperor) leading to a Hydra mechanic, with design note that 'first round is easy, second round is hard'

    high confidence · Dennis's detailed analysis of Deep Root whiteboard photos from Naps Arcade site, describing the whiteboard's structure and design philosophy

Notable Quotes

  • “First round is easy, second round is hard”

    Dennis Creasel (referencing Deep Root whiteboard) @ ~13:30 — Encapsulates Deep Root's design philosophy for Gladiator's rule progression from the leaked whiteboard analysis

  • “The horse is so far to the barn on pricing for both new and used titles that it's like daydreaming about real estate prices in New York City back in the 1970s. Those days are over, people.”

    Craig Bobby @ ~36:00 — Key market analysis: pinball pricing remains elevated and will not decline despite improving supply chains

  • “We're going to see some Rush premiums... the one everybody's been waiting for in May, first week of May, they're going to start throwing those Deadpool pro and premiums onto the production line”

    Zach Minney @ ~41:00 — Confirms Deadpool shipping timeline after year-long wait

  • “Not even the promise of multiple interest rate hikes are going to be able to cool this raging pinball-buying frenzy that has taken hold of the hobby”

    Craig Bobby @ ~34:00 — Market analysis asserting sustained demand despite economic headwinds

  • “I can almost guarantee you that not everybody is going to be fulfilled, whether it's Flippin' Out or any other dealer... Probably 30%”

    Zach Minney @ ~42:30 — Direct acknowledgment of severe fulfillment challenges on high-demand Deadpool orders

  • “Stern, just show us the trailers already!”

    Craig Bobby @ ~20:30 — Community frustration about lack of topper announcement details despite year-long wait for Mandalorian accessory

  • “The golden age of pinball is actually now! But those high prices? Well, those are sadly here to stay.”

    Craig Bobby @ ~37:00 — Encapsulates the paradox of pinball's growth: success driving permanence of high pricing

  • “You could wait another year”

    Dennis Creasel — Humorous acknowledgment of Deadpool's extended pre-order timeline (year+)

Entities

Stern PinballcompanyDeep Root PinballcompanyZach MinneypersonDennis CreaselpersonCraig BobbypersonAmerican PinballcompanyJersey Jack PinballcompanyFlippin' Out Pinballcompany

Signals

  • ?

    business_signal: Stern backlog of 6,000-8,000 units across Godzilla/Rush/Mandalorian/Deadpool valued at $30-50 million; production capacity insufficient to meet demand for estimated 2+ years

    medium · Craig Bobby: 'The demand on titles of previous releases like Godzilla, Rush, The Mandalorian, and Deadpool are estimated to be 6,000 to 8,000 units deep at Stern, with total back orders valued somewhere between $30 and $50 million'

  • ?

    code_update: Rush Code v.93 represents substantial update (5+ GB) with new Wizard Mode (Cygnus X1 Book 1 Voyage), Challenge Mode, Clock Bonus, and hidden Insider Connected features

    high · Craig Bobby's Stern News segment and Zach's confirmation of 5 GB download size from Raymond Davidson; Carter from Pinballers streamed completion

  • ?

    community_signal: TPN (The Pinball Network) running daily 'TPN Babies' photo contest with prizes (Stern Shaker Motor, Banner, Decals) requiring followers on 2+ social platforms

    high · Zach and Dennis discussion of ongoing contest with guessing errors and Eric Wordenberger's mother messaging about participation

  • ?

    competitive_signal: Jersey Jack Pinball's Pirates of the Caribbean Kraken Topper (100 units, $2,500) sold out in hours, generating envy and pressure on Stern to release pending toppers

    high · Craig Bobby: 'Stern fans could only watch and salivate helplessly with envy as many fans wondered out loud where the Mandalorian, Godzilla, and Rush toppers were'

  • ?

    design_philosophy: Deep Root Pinball's Gladiator design centered on 'rising action' narrative progression (Slave→Gladiator→General→Emperor) culminating in Hydra mechanic, with explicit design notes on difficulty escalation

Transcript

groq_whisper · $0.343

0:00
Warning, the following episode contains adult language and screaming goats. Listener discretion is advised.
0:11
The Pinball Network is online. Launching the Pinball Show. The Most Listened to Pinball Podcast is back this week with episode 98 where Dennis and I talk about rising pinball action. What's cooking at Stern Pinball this week? Significant changes coming to American Pinball's game catalog. Dennis' reaction to the Deep Root files. Poor Dirk standing there arms crossed as his body turns into a skeleton and his bones just crumble to the ground. To infinity and beyond with expectations of Jersey Jack's new game release. Pinball market trends. Potato portraits. Chewbacca Jesus. Robert's deep-sailed cabinet innovation. Stairway to Hydra. and something big brewing at Flippin' Out Pinball.
1:00
Damn, I love this show. Pinball is a game of skill. For some, it's a passion and a lifestyle. It's time for the Pinball Show. It's Pinball with Personality.
1:38
Ah, very fitting, isn't it, for this week's episode of the Pinball Show. We're in episode 98. We are your hosts, Zach Minney and Dennis Creasel from the Eclectic Gamers Club. You're back from your glorious discussions of all things Deep Root to a normal, regular, vanilla show. I was really deep-rooted in it as well.
1:57
Taking a break this week is going to be okay. We'll touch on a little bit of deep-root stuff. But how have you been? I've been all right. It was nice to step away and just listen, learn new things, learn new things about production, learn new things about pinball, and maybe even learn new things about myself. Some might say you've learned a little bit about your inner spirit animal.

  • American Pinball will appear live on Deadflip Wednesday and bring all games to Midwest Gaming Classic April 29-May 1 in Milwaukee

    high confidence · Kaz's correspondent report on American Pinball movements

    • @ ~42:15
    Deadpool
    game
    Rushgame
    Mandaloriangame
    Led Zeppelingame
    Godzillagame
    Gladiatorgame
    Avengers Infinity Questgame
    Elite Pinball Topperscompany
    Midwest Gaming Classicevent
    Naps Arcadecompany
    Stephen Bowdenperson
    Dave Brennanperson

    high · Dennis's detailed analysis of leaked whiteboard showing progression arrows and 'first round is easy, second round is hard' design principle

  • $

    market_signal: Community schadenfreude over Deep Root Pinball collapse; leaked design files (Gladiator whiteboard) becoming humorous retrospective fodder

    high · Dennis's extended merchandise/shirt joke about 'Stairway to Hydra' based on Deep Root whiteboard, framed as exploiting discussions for 'monetary gain'

  • ?

    supply_chain_signal: Flippin' Out Pinball expecting only 30% fulfillment of Deadpool Pro/Premium backorders from May shipment after year-long pre-order period

    high · Zach Minney: 'they're not going to send us all of those. They're not going to catch up on the full back-order status of Deadpool' and 'Probably 30%' fulfillment rate

  • $

    market_signal: Pinball pricing remaining elevated and unsustainable despite improving supply chains due to fundamental demand-supply imbalance; interest rates insufficient to cool market

    high · Craig Bobby: 'If you think pinball prices are going down anytime soon, friends, I got some very bad news. They simply are not' and detailed supply chain analysis predicting 6+ month minimum waits

  • ?

    personnel_signal: American Pinball expanding technical support with Dave Brennan producing owner tech videos and providing onsite support at Midwest Gaming Classic

    medium · Kaz correspondent report: 'Dave Brennan...adding more tech videos' with goal of 'seamless, out-of-the-box experience'

  • ?

    product_strategy: Mandalorian toppers pending for nearly 1 year with no announced features, pricing, or release date despite sustained community demand; supply chain cited as reason but lack of communication criticized

    high · Craig Bobby: 'It's now coming on one year in May, if you can believe it, since the Mandalorian was first released' and 'Stern, just show us the trailers already!'

  • ?

    product_strategy: Stern's 2024 production schedule includes Led Zeppelin absent; game receiving code updates despite not being in manufacturing pipeline

    medium · Zach: 'Led Zeppelin...not on the production schedule this year' but 'getting some of these titles...more love as the code continues to get updated'

  • ?

    supply_chain_signal: Used pinball market also experiencing price floor effects due to new machine demand preventing collection turnover; secondary market prices tracking new machine scarcity

    high · Craig Bobby: 'the hot new-in-box sales market...is also driving the bus on the used side, too...they can't find fresh new titles to replace the holes in their collection'

    • 2:21
    I'm a roar. So, I'm not sure what these spirits, like, is this something you talked about in Market Trends or something? You didn't even listen to the episode 97, did you? What? I listened to most of it. I listened to the good part. Damn it. I knew it. I just knew it. We were talking about, Blueberry Johnson, BJ, and I were talking about spirit animals and what type of animal different designers or different pinball celebrities like yourself would be. And we kind of got stumped with you. Like, what animal? If Dennis were an animal, what would he be? And a lot of people messaged me after episode 97, listener, and they said, This is easy. Dennis is easily the honey badger.
    3:08
    That doesn't make any sense to me. Well, they said... As you know, as the people, and I don't know why they say these things, Zach, but I'm the second nicest person in pinball. The honey badger don't give no shit. Well, the honey badger's sweet, but he's still bold. He's still got claws. I don't know if I've ever heard about that. I don't. This whole spirit animal discussion that you've brought up, I don't see the point in it. So let's say that. Oh, God. Here we go with the water. Let's just say that my spirit animal would be the raven so that we can talk about this never more. Who is the tree? Oh, okay. Well, you know what? And I did say in the episode, Steve, you and Irons think, damn, we're so good. I did say that your spirit animal feels like it's in the bird family. And I said, you know, the owl's too low-hanging fruit. Yeah, just a loser now. Yours is more of a raptor. I forgot what I... A stork? No, it is not a stork. You're not a crane.
    4:07
    You're in the bird family. Does a spirit animal have to be a real animal? Can I be a hydra? Oh. Actually, there are hydras, but they're very small little things. Oh, really? That you look at under microscopes, yeah. I didn't know if a platypus was real or not. Speaking of hydras... Andres, you yourself have just released a new merchandise item that can be found. Where can they find that again? Over with, yeah, it's over at Teespring. I have a link on the EGP Facebook, but we have a Teespring store with EGP, so I just went ahead and dropped in there. Because, you know, this is pinball, Zach. I got to exploit the discussions for monetary gain, right? I mean, it's like what people do. Bye-bye. So, no, this was, I didn't want to do this, Zach.
    4:50
    Here we go. of sports. No, no, no. My hands are tied. I wanted Joel Engelberth to do this. And I had been on one of his live streams. I think, I don't think it was just, I think it was one where he had a set, like, I think Craig Bobby or a Stern News correspondent. It was very good, yeah. So we were going over information on the Knapp Arcade site and they had one of the posts, Jason had one of those, Deep Root Post was up. And this was the first time I had seen what I call the whiteboards. I know they had multiple whiteboards, but this is the whiteboard about that game Gladiator they were working on. You remember that game? I do remember. And now there are photos that have come out with all these details about Gladiator. I'm not interested so much in the layout. I was interested in the whiteboard.
    5:36
    And the whiteboard really emphasizes how they had to have a Hydra in this game. And there was going to be all this rising action. You had to have rising action. You couldn't just start with a Hydra. You have to have rising action. That term right there, enough. Rising action. To achieve. Yes, to achieve Hydra. And so this is my interpretation of that whiteboard. I've taken my own creative liberties with it. It's not the Deep Root whiteboard. This is my version of Rising Action. No whiteboard IP infringement here. Okay. No. But, you know, I learned so much from that whiteboard. Yeah, no. I have my own. I have a linear line because I believe in Rising Action being a linear progression. But one of the best things that I took away from that whiteboard, besides understanding the value of the Hydra itself, Zach, is that when you're coming to rules in pinball, the first round, that's easy. But the second round, Zach, that round is hard.
    6:35
    Pinball! For the listeners that are unaware. So on the whiteboard. This shirt's going to appeal to no one, Zach, because you have to know the whiteboard to even care about any of this subject matter. But I care. So I spent several hours, and I did my own design of it. I purchased it. It's wonderful. And on that whiteboard, it said, like, what does it say? It says what the T-shirt says. It's like, it starts out easy, but then it progresses to be more harsh. No, the whiteboard in and of itself is great. I actually, it's better than the shirt. The whiteboard talked about how there would be levels to this game. Slave to gladiator to general to emperor. There's one part where it goes, if we're going to make a Hydra, there needs to be a lead up. And then there's an arrow from that statement to Hydra is part of this game.
    7:34
    Introducing Hydra. Then there's this little line graph. It's almost like a sine wave of rising action. And at the end of it is Hydra. And then they talk about how they're going to plan around this even though we're shooting live action. They were going to find a real Hydra. A real Hydra. They're going to build a Hydra. It's going to be a real Hydra. And then it notes, first round is easy, second round is hard. Yeah. And they even talked about limited mythical creatures. like they talk about minotaur hydra manticore pegasus and i actually thought about rather than i start my line graph by saying lead up but i actually thought about putting a little sketch about pegasus down there pegasus on the bottom of the graph pegasus rising action hydra it's like what is pegasus gonna do well that's the thing when i saw this again that was when i had so many favorite parts of this white part that was one of my other things like one of these things is not like the others. All of these were like evil, mythical beasts. And then Pegasus. Oh, Pegasus has the wings of the TriStar production. It's a friendly horse. I know it from the Perseus myth. And Class of the Titans, you know. He rides around on the Pegasus. Of course I know. So your spirit animal would be a Hydra, where you can buy right now on the EGP link. You've got to go buy it. I bought mine as well. I only made one compromise. I went ahead and did it on Tribal End.
    8:57
    Oh, try the lender. Death, right, George Fisher? That's the price. 25 bucks. That's fine. That's all right. I got mine in large. It's going to fit really well. So, Hydra, isn't that the beast with three heads? That's the, I've seen versions with three, and that's the version I did. I've seen them, like, I think in the Heracles myth, it's nine or something. The idea was when you cut a head off, two more replaced it. So, you get a lot of head. Like Black Knight Swords of Rage. Yeah. Yeah, exactly. And again, I was like, well, I mean, Stern already did the Hydra Deep Root, but they were going to do a live-action Hydra, so it was going to be different. Hydra's a really good spirit animal for you because you have different emotions that arise out of media, such as comedy, such as snark. I don't know. Such as happiness, anger. I wonder if they would have let me play the Hydra in the Deep Root game. Live-action Hydra. Man, I love that. You know what? I've never seen those, Zach, is a baby Hydra. How does a hydra sound? Is it lizard-like? A lot of times they're serpentine head size. I just go... It's the hiss I apply to everything. Raptors and everything else. Fair enough. No, I have not seen a baby hydra. Does it grow heads as it hits puberty? It's like, boop, boop, there's two more.
    10:16
    Why are your heads all different sizes? They haven't all caught up yet. I got a bud right here. Look at it. It's just an eyeball. Yeah, a baby. Oh, a baby. Thank you for the toss up there. Did you know that we're doing a contest, listener? Dennis probably knows about this, called TPN Babies, where each and every day, last week, this week, and following, on the TPN Facebook page, we are posting a picture of one of our TPN providers as a baby. Wait a minute. Kind of looks like a baby. Well, and we're using that term somewhat loosely. Are we? I is a baby! Well, because, like, under 10. I think we're trying to do ages 10 and under. Normally, like, a 9-year-old isn't seen as a baby. More of a babe. Baby! The other way, see? Just think of that movie with the pig. That'll do, pig. Tipping babies, yeah, but ages 1 through 10. People are really getting stumped on this challenge. But the payout would be great. Yes. Some of these justice have been so wrong. And I don't know if I just think that, Zach, because I knew ahead of time who these photos were of. But some of you guys, wow. Some of you guys need to get your eyes checked. Some of you guys need to check what the TPN roster is. That's what we need to start with. Is it Chevy Chase? No. Is Chevy Chase in TPN? No, he's not.
    11:40
    It's Greg Bones. No, it's Terry Hardy. I'm like, who the hell is that? Not even him. Terry Hardy all over. Guys, they're not in TPN. Oh, my gosh. Oh, great. So, yeah, we're going to compile how many correct answers you all have received over the duration of this contest. And the answer so far is not many. There's one outstanding star right now, but they can be beat, I promise. But the winner is going to receive a Stern Shaker Motor. Second place, we're even going to give a Stern Banner, I believe, of your choice, or GNR Banner from JJP. And third place, I believe, is a Collector Commemorative Metallic Decal. You get the mojo, you keep your money, and I'll get your baby. So who sponsored those prizes? Flippin' Out Pinball and TPN, of course. And all you have to do, you have to at least be following two social media forms for TPN. So Twitch, YouTube, Twitter, Instagram, YouTube, just two of them. Follow two of them, answer every day to try to figure out who the TPN star is, and you could win. We're about to post yours and mine. You think people are going to be able to identify us? Well, now that you mention that, we're going to be in it, yes. Well, we're going to. Everybody knew that we were going to. We actually have a lot of photos, though. Poor Sean Wilson was like the prettiest baby, so people are like, is that Reby Hardy?
    13:02
    Is that Lindsay from What the Flip? No. I think I'm pretty obvious, though. Well, look, I thought Joe Lingobirth was pretty damn obvious, too, but people still got that wrong. Even after his dad came in? Even after that? That's his job.
    13:18
    No, you don't know me. They're like, I'm going to go with Terry Hardy here. I'm going to take Greg Bone for the win.
    13:28
    You know the sweetest thing? I'm going to embarrass him. But Eric Wordenberger, Chuck Word, with streaming for SDTM, and he does so much prolific stuff for the pinball community. I can't even list out as much stuff as he does. But he is a sweet man, as is his mother. His mother messaged me yesterday, and we had a nice conversation because she was like, hey, is that you on the TPN Babies this week? I was like, you're the sweetest lady, and poor Eric is going to be so humiliated. Yeah, we had a great conversation. Great conversation.
    14:03
    Move over, Greg Bones, Mom. TPN Babies is fun. This is what the spirit of pinball is. You know what? You're absolutely correct. It's about a community, and it's about having fun and looking how cute we once were, and as we age, we no longer are. Man, here's another hint. As we kick it over to the correspondents, I can say one of these correspondents has submitted a picture that nearly most of you missed. It's time for TPN Industry News.
    14:35
    Hello, and welcome to the Pinball Show's Stern News Update. I'm Craig Bobby. Well, you heard the question last time here on the Pinball Show's episode 97, What's Your Spirit Animal and Where the Duck Are All the Stern Toppers? Last week, pinball fans were shocked and amazed by this super limited edition $2,500 Kraken Topper sold by Elite Pinball Toppers for the Jersey Jack Pinball's Pirates of the Caribbean. As it sold through its 100-piece allotment in just a couple of hours, sight unseen, Stern fans could only watch and salivate helplessly with envy as many fans wondered out loud where the Mandalorian, Godzilla, and Rush toppers were and why it was taking Stern so long to announce them. It's now coming on one year in May, if you can believe it, since the Mandalorian was first released, which means Stern is long overdue for some sort of topper-related announcement. With the hype generated around the Pinball Expo last fall, it was thought that Stern might release the usually high-priced accessory, rumored to have movement in some sort of holographic projection device sometime around last Christmas, but to no avail. Presumably, supply chain issues continue to plague the release dates of all the aforementioned toppers. However, it doesn't explain why Stern can't satiate eager fans with a release video showing the various toppers in action, allowing them to see what's in the works as they patiently await the release date. Stern, just show us the trailers already! Speaking of show and tell, after a brief hiatus, the Stern coders are back at it with new Rush Code V.93 for the Pro, Premium, and Limited Edition models. This code is a doozy and contains numerous game enhancements, including the long-awaited Cygnus X1 Book 1, the Voyage Wizard Mode, Challenge Mode, Clock Bonus feature, and several new Insider Connected achievements, including a hidden one for Insider Connected users to discover. Say what? So what are you waiting for? Sign up for Inside the Connected and get out there to your local arcade, barcade, or pinball tournament and play that masterful Rush music pin. And before I go, allow me to get on top of my little pinball soapbox for some pinball pontificating to the masses, if I may, about a certain topic that I see popping up almost daily now on Facebook, Pinside, and other social media threads. And that is the subject of price. Look how expensive pinball is. Can you believe how much pinball costs? I can't believe Stern charges so much for these machines. So many problems for so much money. Back in my day, I could buy a used machine for $1,500 all day long. Blah, blah, blah. Price, price, price. And for good reason. New and used machines are selling like hotcakes, both new and used, many of which are selling at all-time highs. Sell, sell, sell. But if you think pinball prices are going down anytime soon, friends, I got some very bad news. They simply are not. But why? Surely with higher interest rates, a sizzling economy that is slowly being cooled, down boy, and improved supply chain, surely that will also result in a cooling off of our red-hot pinball market as manufacturers lower prices and buyers and collectors the world over, rush to the exit doors to sell off their precious pinball machines, or simply stop buying, to which I say, eh, probably not. While slowly improving, our supply chain is still, well, pretty spotty. Anyone seen a Stern's Hopper lately or talked to a pinball distributor? And we already have an absolutely massive backlog of pinball orders when you combine all available finished inventory from the current roster of pinball manufacturers. Then you add a rapidly growing, affluent pinball customer base that is only too happy to blow through those rising interest rates like Rick James on a coked-out 80s after-party and Rick James, bitch, buying practically every new machine that is coming onto the market to date. Coke is a hell of a drug. So no, not even the promise of multiple interest rate hikes are going to be able to cool this raging pinball-buying frenzy that has taken hold of the hobby. And while some rarer or sought-after titles like Pirates of the Caribbean, Batman 66, or Elvira's House of Horrors, prices may fluctuate slightly here and there on the secondary market, don't look for any price breaks on the new and boxed side as demand for new games both from homeowners and operators continues to go through the roof as the pinball and home entertainment market continue to grow by double digits. Yes, pinball really hits that sweet spot, doesn't it? It's hip, it's retro, it features some of the world's most beloved themes, it's fun for the whole damn family, and the unfortunate magic bullet to guarantee high prices, they are extremely labor-intensive to make, and there are very few manufacturers in the world, I count one, hello Stern Pinball, that are actually making more than one title a year, which means it's still a waiting game to get your hands on those new popular titles. There is no pin bubble that's been formed or that's about to burst, as many speculate. This is simply a good old supply and demand issue for an extremely expensive, relatively rare and capital-intensive device to manufacture that is designed as a commercial device to take small amounts of money from you on location and return for a few minutes of fun. So don't expect to see Stern or any other manufacturers start lowering their pricing as the supply chain issues start to smooth out. Because while the world stayed home and factories closed or slowed down, consumers took to the Internet and did what consumers do best. If I want to watch porn, I can watch porn. They continue to buy things. And to help, governments did what they do best. Print more money to ensure the party kept going, with most G7 nations printing and handing out money like a Zach Manning, Dennis Creasel, and Greg Bones Secret Santa gift exchange. Yes, the demand on titles of previous releases like Godzilla, Rush, The Mandalorian, and Deadpool are estimated to be 6,000 to 8,000 units deep at Stern, with total back orders valued somewhere between $30 and $50 million. That kind of order valuation would make even the president of Williams back in the good old days of dot matrix pinball sit up and guzzle that half bottle of Jack Daniels in the bottom drawer of his desk. That means even Stern, with the best pinball manufacturing production in the world these days, could literally make those titles for up to an estimated two years before they could even possibly catch up. You pair that with even more new Stern releases that are still coming in the months and years ahead, and the wait times for older, previously released titles will not be getting shorter. I predict previously released titles will generally take a minimum now of six months or longer to receive. Now you may say, that's okay, Ricky Bobby. I don't need to buy a new in-box pinball machine. That's for the insanely rich, or let's face it, just the plain insane. I'll scour the youth pinball market like Elon Musk on a Twitter stock run and find myself a pinball market trend steal of the week. Bye, bye, bye. Bye, bye, bye! Well, bad news there as well, as the hot new-in-box sales market we were just talking about is also driving the bus on the used side, too. Unless people with collections want to actually downsize what they own, and not many do, they can't find fresh new titles to replace the holes in their collection that selling one from their precious lineup will create. And no one wants a hole in their home arcade they can't fill, do they? No, no, no, no. Or my personal favorite, let's have a buyer's moratorium. We'll rise up and just stop buying. We'll show those greedy manufacturers how dare they produce something for the masses and try to profit from our mad addictions. Yes, go ahead and stop buying your LE, premium, or pro models and watch the literally thousands of businesses or people behind you only too happy to pay the price and climb over your walking dead wallet. So you see what's happening here, everyone? The horse is so far to the barn on pricing for both new and used titles that it's like daydreaming about real estate prices in New York City back in the 1970s. Those days are over, people, and it's time to move on. Now, I know I'm simplifying things for the sake of this argument, but I think it's time to face some facts. Our little pinball hobby has finally grown up and come of age. And isn't that what we all wanted? Isn't that what we've been trying to tell the world for the last 40 years? The golden age of pinball is actually now! But those high prices? Well, those are sadly here to stay. For the Pinball Show, I'm Craig Bobby. Catch you on the flip side. Hey, this is Kaz. Quick update on American Pinball. I reached out to Stephen Bowden. Now, Wednesday, American Pinball is going to be on Deadflip for a live stream, so check that out. And the team is also bringing all of their games to the Midwest Gaming Classic this upcoming April 29th, 30th, and May 1st in Milwaukee, Wisconsin. I also reached out to Dave Brennan. He's adding more tech videos to help owners, and he said his goal is for owners to have a seamless, out-of-the-box experience and is happy to help if there's any issues. Dave's also going to be at the Midwest Gaming Classics, so stop by the booth and say hi to the team. I hope everybody has a great week and has fun playing pinball. For the Pinball Show, this is Brian Kosner.
    23:47
    Boy, Craig, Bobby, and Kaz coming out. Appreciate the submissions, fellas. Oh, yes. Ooh, so much stuff. There's a lot of stuff. Stern Pinball in the news this week. I wanted to give everyone an update that the April run of Rush Pros are beginning to ship. Well, they do love these production updates, Zach. Our, the flip and out run of Rush Pros shipped out Friday. So, customers should be getting them this week. Shout out to Cliff Albert. Oh, baby, your Rush Pro is coming home soon. It's headed your way. Check out Cliff Albert's streams as well. But, yeah, the April run of Rush Pros are going to be shipping out right now. Rush Premiums are going to start shipping, Dennis, over the next week or two. So we're going to see some Rush premiums. And then last week, and I think they're finishing them now, but Avengers Infinity Quest pros and premiums nearly finished, if not already complete, for the April run. So that's good. And then the one everybody's been waiting for in May, first week of May, they're going to start throwing those Deadpool pro and premiums onto the production line at Stern Pinball. Oh, people have been waiting a long time to hear that, Zach, a long time. They're waiting for that snicked target. They're waiting for them chimichangas and disco multiball. Right now, NAP Arcade's drooling. Oh, I've only had to wait a year. It's been one year.
    25:05
    It doesn't sound so impressive. It's been one whole year. You could wait another year. But, yeah, as a reminder, I hate to be the bearer of bad news, but I can almost guarantee you that not everybody is going to be fulfilled, whether it's Flippin' Out or any other dealer. We've been taking a long list of pre-orders for Deadpool Pro and Premium for the majority of a year. So they're not going to send us all of those. They're not going to catch up on the full back-order status of Deadpool. So I'm sorry. Unfortunate. I'm sorry. I'm trying to think percentage-wise how many Deadpools we're getting out of our back-order. Probably 30%. That's actually better than I thought you would say. I thought it would be more like 15. I'm actually, honestly, Dennis, I just, I'm too afraid to look into the map.
    25:58
    If only you were using that, what is that thing everyone's like, Squarespace or whatever they're all telling you to convert to. I thought you were talking about a calculator. Oh, what are that? Yeah, I don't want to look. I still got my TI-82 right up above my computer. Sometimes it's just easier to grab. No TI-82 plus, huh? Nope. Sorry, I was a poor kid. No TI-83? Nope. I'm too old for that one. in 84 and make your own little games?
    26:22
    You could make games on the TI-82. Hey, look, I drew a pair of boobs. And speaking of production, believe it or not, Dennis, word on the street is that Led Zeppelin toppers are being run again right now. Woo-hoo! The topper cometh. Why?
    26:40
    Because we have had so many back orders forever, and people have been waiting for the Led Zeppelin topper for like a year. Oh, and I have to correct myself, Zach. I have a TI-85. Oh, you fancy man, you. Yeah, I think the prerequisite for, like, the algebra in high school was an 82. I think it was an 82. I don't, you know, I don't know. Wow, grad school 85. I don't know. But, yeah, this was, you know, one of the graphing ones. I did have, I might still have it on there. I think I had, like, a, they made a calculator version of Doom. Oh. So that was the game I had. I loved running, like, I think they had Oregon Trail on mine or something. Oh, Oregon Trail. Man. All right, anyway, back to, sorry. I was trying to digress from the Led Zeppelin topper. Why are you hating on the Led Zeppelin topper? No, I'm sure the topper is fine. It's just with the 10 game owners out there, I don't know who else is going to buy it. But okay. I forgot how many. We have like 50 still in order, I think. I don't know. Toppers or games? Toppers. Wow. Yeah. When it comes to Led Zeppelin games, I think I still have 20, 30, 40 games still. I don't know. They're not making Led Zeppelin this year. No, it's not on the production line this year. Or it's not on the production schedule this year. So, no clue. That one's getting a little bit more love as time goes on, too. Same with Rush. Same with, we're getting some of these titles that they're getting more love as the code continues to get updated on it. So, Led Zeppelin toppers should be coming very soon. Still no word on the other toppers, though. You heard Craig Bobby talking about it. Mandalorian toppers, Godzilla toppers, Rush toppers. Not only do we not know when they're coming out, we don't know what they look like. We don't know the pricing. We don't know the features. Nothing. I've got nada right now. What if none of those games are getting toppers?
    28:24
    Perhaps we've achieved freedom. Shit. My stomach drops there, honestly. Take some Pepto and get back into the game Do that to me Yeah well Mandalorian was released a year ago You know how Disney is though Remember how long it took that R2 topper to come out I know Beep beep Boop
    28:44
    So that's your production update. The other updates we can talk about, I know you love it, Dennis. It's Rush Code Update, version .93.
    28:52
    No one cares. Bastille cares, damn it. Okay. Go ahead. Oh, and version .93 is a rundown. It is a big, hefty one. Don't think you're going to be streaming in 20 minutes and try to update this code. No, we're talking gigs here. Yeah, actually, our location, I thought someone, they were like, we're going to update the Rush code, and then it was eight hours later or something. Yeah, Raymond Davidson pulled out like five gigs for us. He was like, here, how about this update? It's a big one. Made me shiver. But they added a clock bonus feature. They added the Cygnus X1 Book 1 Voyage Wizard mode, which is lit by completing all six multiball modes. We've seen, I think, Carter from the Pinballers did that on stream, so you can go check that VOD out. They added the respective, I'm hoping I'm pronouncing this right, Cygnus X1 Challenge mode. So if you want to cheat and not earn the actual moment yourself, hold both flippers in, and you can play. Look, I'm warming up to these. I'm warming up to them. Yeah, that sounded really warm. The Turtle Challenge is a thing of beauty, so I love that one, even though you can't play that within the game, so it seems okay to me. But a lot of people like these challenge modes, and I do think they're good for pinball. How about that? That's a big leap right there. That's me backtracking. That's a big leap. I think they are good for pinball, just not good for my style of play. Kind of like you and toppers, right? I can't really fit toppers in with my low ceiling. You're just supposed to admit that they're good for pinball, damn it. Why are they good for pinball? Because they're interactive. Okay, that's great. Also, on this .93 code, they added a ton of achievements for the Insider Connected. They even added a secret feature that can be unlocked by certain Insider Connected users. Is it a Hydra? I hope so. I hope it's the Hydra from Black Knight.
    30:51
    My family appearance. Richie may be gone, but I'm not. It's a special code. And then the stairway to heaven appears on the screen. And at the top is the high ground. At the top of the stairs. The rush stairs. And the stairway to heaven stairs.
    31:12
    Oh, that is too good right there. See? You're going to have a whole Hydra series of merchandise. The missing mech.
    31:27
    It's going to be like Munsters where the pot comes out of the staircase, but it's going to be the Hydra head.
    31:35
    .93 also adds additional speech, expression, lighting code, and other general balance and bug issues and fixes. Yay. We can't talk balance without talking about American Pinball and their upcoming changes to titles and production and manufacturing. And I admit, Zach, I get really confused trying to, like, what they do on and off the line with American Pinball. I know they don't have all that many games, but because, like, their entire catalog seems to remain in production, I'm constantly sort of at a loss in terms of what's going on there. Well, and you're not alone because I think where they struggle is not only do they have a classic model and a deluxe model of every title, but each one of those individual ones are different price. So it's not like all the deluxes are the same price or all the standards are the same price. So, yeah, I get confused and I'm a dealer. Using last week as an example, Dennis, I really did a crappy job trying to explain the updates to the coming catalog that American Pinball has. So I wanted to clarify it. I owe that to American Pinball to actually report what's going on instead of me trying to misremember things. You do only report the facts, or try to. Well, last week there was an asterisk, but I have clarification. I had a crap attempt last week. So it's still kind of confusing, but we're going to try to do this together. Okay, this is pretty big American Pinball news that not a lot of people are talking about. I've not heard anybody talking about. there are some important changes coming to the Classic and Deluxe game models from their current appearance. This is information that I've received as an authorized dealer of American Pinball products. The upcoming runs of Oktoberfest, Houdini, and Hot Wheels tentatively schedules to start in late April or May for Oktoberfest, late summer for Houdini, and late fall for Hot Wheels will be the last run of Deluxe models in their present form. Visually. So there's going to be another run of all of their back catalogs of deluxe models as they have been, but they're going to make them look different moving forward after that? After that. That's my understanding. Okay. After that. Okay. The plan shifts are going to focus on standardization of all the games so that they can closer be equal in pricing and features. So kind of what we were saying is confusing. They're going to try to make them a little bit more equal, as well as minimizing future delays because of special order parts, manufacturing parts, the delays there. So they've got such a number of different parts and specialties for these Deluxes that they're going to try to streamline that a little bit, which is going to change the appearance and maybe the pricing of things going forward after this final run of each of these Deluxes. I think everybody's following, right? I think so. All right. So they're going to make changes to the Deluxes, but they're going to do runs under the current iterations for those who are interested. Yes, absolutely. Okay, now, future builds following these final runs for this year will include the following adjustments. So you get one more run of Oktoberfest Deluxe, you get one more run of Houdini Deluxe, and you get one more run of Hot Wheels Deluxe in its current form. And then we will have what I'm going to call Deluxe Plus. That's the one. The following changes will be made in the future. The leg and lollipop side rail powder coating is going to be black now on all games. Oh. Instead of the current. Because I've been doing specific colors for each one. Game specific colors. So Houdini, we had that very steampunky, greeny, rustic to fit the cabinet artwork. On Oktoberfest, we had that barrel texture brownish color. So those are going away.
    35:18
    Now your Deluxes, two runs from now your Deluxes are just going to have black powder coating. Just like probably the Hot Wheels. So it doesn't really affect the Hot Wheels. Hot Wheels always have the black. That's a big change. I don't know if I like that change. I'm surprised they didn't call Stern to see if they could get a deal on the leftover WWE mustard gold. They've got to have some Guardian's gold in there.
    35:42
    So that's one change. This one's even bigger, in my opinion. Static playfield toys will be modified on some games to support equal pricing structure across game lines. It's very vague. Yeah, I was going to say, that's really vague. So static playfield toys, obviously those are the ones that the ball doesn't directly interact with. But they don't say what the changes will be. So my immediate thought is, are we talking like they're just going to change the molds on things? or are we going to move to flat plastics from things that were actually molded? That's what I was thinking, flat, flat. Or maybe a modification is deletion altogether, removal altogether. I don't know. And when they said modified, and I wouldn't normally assume removal with a statement modified, but technically removal is a modification, so you may be right. I mean, think about the beautiful molded locks on the pop bumpers of Houdini or the chains.
    36:39
    Yeah, the chains. The Ouija board planchette. I believe it's a planchette. It's a wooden planchette on the right side of the play field. Do we still have that? The milk can. Houdini's got so much molding, and that's what kind of got American Pinball, in my opinion, to where it was at, to turn heads, to make people pay attention to this company, was some of the beauty that they put in these games. Oktoberfest. Plenty of moldings. We had Gus or Hank or Bill or whoever the bartender was, his bust on the barrel back there. We had an actual physical molded barrel where balls were locked into. Do we lose any of that? So it's still very vague, but they're just giving dealers a heads up that changes are coming. And then the other change is that there will be consistent cabinet styling for all games. Dennis, this feels like Dave Fix's previous statements about the head shape. Yes. At first I thought, hasn't Dave Fix addressed this before? I guess it was just the cabinet heads and not the bodies themselves. But I'm not surprised that he would want to move in this direction. I'm not surprised the company would in terms of the cabinets. Doing different cabinet designs seems inefficient. And to my knowledge, the lower main cabinets themselves are the same in all the games. It's just the head that differs and, you know, the monitor styling and such. This is just, we have no clue. We're just guessing here. they had two styles, to my knowledge, of American Pinball's heads. We had the Houdini Sharky Shootout Wave. That's what I call that. Okay, yeah, yeah. And then we had Oktoberfest, which was, I call a teardrop. So you had the first wave up top kind of, but then it just kind of teardropped down instead of that second wave. I hope you guys, listeners, understand what I'm saying. It's kind of a, but it was a different style. Hot Wheels came back, and it had the wave again. Do you think they keep one of these styles, or do you think they scrap both of them and do the very standard Bally Williams or Stern style or JJP style head? I think they keep one of them. I think they probably keep the Wave style, because I'm assuming they've been making more of them because of Hot Wheels' popularity. Now, what really throws a wrench into this all, Dennis, is that thinking about Legends of Valhalla, I remembered, and again, I could be wrong here. I might have misremembered. I remember Dave Fix talking about the deluxes of Legends of Valhalla coming out with a head that is more that teardrop, kind of like the Oktoberfest. But then the standards would have the wave that is more like the Houdini. And I thought that was just odd. But then I was like, well, maybe they're just trying to get rid of heads that they have stored. But I don't know how this changes that. Yeah, I don't know either.
    39:25
    There's a lot of change is the point. I think. Yeah. If they're running with this teardrop style for Legends of Valhalla now, maybe one could assume that that's kind of the standard that they're going to go for moving forward. I mean, I could see it that way. So that's that. Current toys and powder-coated metal parts, they're going to be supported still through the American Pinball website for replacement purposes in the foreseeable future, they're saying, but they're not going to be factory-installed items on future games. And they're also, these upcoming runs of that final deluxe in this current form, they're going to be pretty limited too. Dealers are going to be limited to a very, I will say a very small amount of each of these titles regardless of what we as dealers have backordered. So are you going to basically have to contact your current buyer list and let those know that are beneath this, whatever quantity you're going to get, that hey, there's going to be changes if you want to stay in? Yeah, I will likely have to do that. And I'd like, once I receive more information as a dealer about potential pricing changes or feature changes, once I know specifically, then I'll have to contact the individuals that fall outside of that small little run that we're going to get and say, hey, you know, I know you have one on order. Here's some of the things that you're going to be seeing on the new runs in the future here to see if they still have interest and whatnot. Are you planning to, if the pricing is different, are you planning to contact those that are in that could get one of these, I guess we'll call the old style deluxe versions and say, hey, do you want to stay in on this? Or would you rather save money and get the new version of the deluxe if the price is lower? I would say depending on how the timeline falls, if they're going to start making these Oktoberfests, they might do those before I know the specifics of the future runs. I might not even know yet. Well, I wouldn't. I mean, if I were you, I'm not. But if I were, I probably wouldn't extend the offer because they've already committed on the old version. They've already expressed they want the current version, so I wouldn't create a whole bunch of extra work for myself. And then they went on to tell us that the limited deluxe models of new releases, kind of like the Legends of Valhalla, I think that was considered a limited deluxe model, they're going to still include the exclusive features that we've come to know and love. I think what they're referring to there, Dennis, is the mirrored back glassing, the painted sculpted toys. Look, Legends of Valhalla had the gold armor, too. Maybe they did Coldstern.
    41:53
    So now I am kind of confused still. I'm not trying to be a contrarian here, but I am kind of confused. So have they adjusted pricing for the Legends of Valhalla to say that anything in the future will still have the nice and pretties? Is that what they're saying? They're just not dealing with the old style of Houdini Oktoberfest? Yeah, I'm wondering if what they're saying is, I'm confused too. I'm wondering if what they're saying is that when they do LEs, there may still be unique aspects, but when there are not LEs, their second, their higher level tier is going to be more standardized than what they historically were doing. You know, I'm at the point where I'm kind of wondering, if the priority for them is standardization, why continue to do deluxes at all? You know what they could do, and they would sell a lot? is just say, hey, guys, we've had Houdini out for a long time. We've had Oktoberfest for a long time. We're not saying in the future we're not going to vault one of these. But for right now, we're actually going to give you one last call. We're going to discontinue this series, and we're going to run what we can. But, you know, or maybe we've got 200 of each of these models left in its current form, and then it's going to be gone for a handful of years. Yeah, I've been curious about it. I mean, I get it on the one hand, like with themes like Houdini and Oktoberfest, they don't have a license or they have to worry about. So there's not a time pressure legally. But at some stage, I would think they would want to just say, you know what, we got to take these off the line. We can't just keep doing them every year. We got other stuff we want to build. You know, create some built up demand over time. Maybe say, all right, it's been three years. Let's re-release Houdini. Yeah, kind of like Stern does with like your Iron Man vaults of the world or your Star Trek vaults of the world. I think that would work better than just saying, hey, once a year we're always going to run them for you guys. It doesn't create as much of a demand, in my opinion. Well, and if they had done it like that, then this whole thing, this explanation, you wouldn't have to really do it. You could cut them off and then say, oh, we're bringing back a vaulted Oktoberfest Deluxe and Houdini Deluxe, and there have been changes because it's a vault. It's not going to be identical visually. Same great gameplay, but different aesthetics. They're figuring it out over there. They're figuring it out. But I'm glad to hear that it's not like we won't get the pretty powder coats and stuff in the future on future games. It's just for these cataloged titles. Okay. And for everyone's reference, the new AP pricing I was referring to last week, very definitively, this week I have the answers. Houdini Deluxe is $79.95 plus shipping. This last little run and what it has been. $79.95 plus shipping. It comes with a shaker, interior art blades, knocker, magic glass, steampunk, flipper toppers. Houdini Classic, $72.95. So $700 less plus shipping. Oktoberfest Deluxe, $82.95 plus shipping. Comes with all those little extras as well. Where the classic edition of Oktoberfest is $77.95 plus shipping. Hot Wheels goes down even more, $73.95 for the deluxe model of Hot Wheels. They don't have powder coat, but they have that black. And you get the shaker, knocker, magic glass, and upgraded rails. Whereas the classic version of Hot Wheels streamlined for the arcade or the home arcade is $69.95 plus shipping. They're now right there with a Stern Pro, so that is competitive. I like that. And the Legends of Valhalla Limited Deluxe is the official name. That is $83.95, their most expensive offering at American Pinball. It does come with a mirrored back glass, hand-painted toys, shaker, knocker, magic glass, topper, gold foil arch, and upgraded rails. Okay. Plus shipping. See there you go American Pinball I got your back In explaining what's coming up And what's going on with American Pinball That topper is not too bad for Legends of Valhalla Not too bad at all Just as it included topper It don't get enough love Everybody else, oh spooky, oh P3 American Pinball But not Deep Root Remember when Deep Root had the Retro Atomic Zombie Adventure Land topper Remember that? They teased that a couple years ago Vaguely. You know, I never paid a lot of attention to the toppers. I was kind of sad to hear through all of this auction stuff, Dennis, that I didn't see any of those toppers in any of the lots. Were you looking or were you focused on trying to win that Jesus painting? I was trying to win the Jesus painting. They got pulled, and Blueberry Johnson in the forums on Pinside did confirm that the Jesus painting that Zach Minney was bidding on, it was the highest bidder before they pulled it, was actually pulled as a personal item for Robert Mueller. Why didn't they pull Barry's toolbox? That's a great point Jesus is going home with Robert And that home may be 8 by 10 so Wow He's going to need Jesus Where we're going we're going to need a bigger Jesus That's a big painting Was it? It was a fairly large painting yeah Oh okay I didn't I don't even remember looking at it I just assumed it was like a little 8 and a half by 11 size painting Now, at least BJ put a link in the forum so that I could go buy one of Etsy or something. It's not the same, BJ. It's not the same. Jesus, his eyes could talk from that painting. Did you think that Bobby went in every day and, like, would kiss his fingers and then touch the little hand and go, bring me fortune?
    47:27
    There was hand smudges? Is that what you think? On the frame glass. I was hoping, Dennis, that it was sitting mounted right above that casting couch. Just to remind people before they sit down, Jesus is watching. I wanted it above the gladiator whiteboard.
    47:45
    Yeah, right, dude. My Jesus is like, fuck a Hydra. Watch me part a sea. There's so many jokes there, Dennis. Do we really want to move on? Well, they did have that Fire and Brimstone game. I haven't looked as much into that one. Last week, listeners, you likely heard Blueberry Johnson as the guest here doing a special episode entitled, is it titled or entitled? It's not entitled, is it? I don't know. Did he think he deserved lots of stuff? Was he acting entitled? I get it.
    48:16
    Titled, Uprooting Deep Root. Which I thought was clever. Isn't that clever? Part one. Yeah, I mean, it's kind of obvious. I sat with a title, you know, the root of all evil. Just imagine you sitting there spinning your glass of cognac. I was. I must. That's what I do. Must come up with a title. It must make sense. We could uproot, deeproot. And be obvious, but feel clever. Money is the deep root of all evil. You could went with. I had a couple working titles there. I think I had an EGP episode when it was all imploding where I titled it Roundup on the Deep Root. And I had a little picture in the icon of someone with a spray bottle of Roundup spray in the logo. So that's clever. Yeah, but Blueberry Johnson visited the pinball show last week to discuss the history of Deep Root and gave a lot of unreleased info from alleged past employees. You got to check that out in special part one, as well as joining me for episode 97 as a special guest co-host. And Nap Arcade, woof! Nap Arcade's still like a phoenix, baby, rising on fire, revealing exclusive unpublished Deep Root documents, pictures, videos, Go to naparcade.org for all of that via Blueberry Johnson submitted those. But, wow, there is a lot of shitter reading material there, if you ask me. The Hydra appearing Whitewood is also in that article. It's been featured twice. It has been featured twice as well. Speaking of shitter material, do you, generally speaking, I know this is personal, but what do you do when you're taking a shit? Poop. First things first, where's your shitter? Do you have any complimentary activities or materials or anything? No, I poop.
    50:08
    You're not a pin-side surfer, email checker, a Facebook stalker? Oh, yeah, you know, I might see if I have emails.
    50:17
    Okay, you're an email checker when you're pooping. I didn't know if you have, like, handles and you're really just bearing down and have no time to focus on a phone. Some people do a crossword puzzle. Some people hide really good information in a Walt Whitman book they put on the toilet. I don't know. I am the danger. You don't seem like the story. I imagine you eat cereal. Oh, my God, that's so nasty.
    50:42
    That's so gross. Well, this topic is dumb, so I'm derailing it. I got the visual of eating fruity pebbles while taking a sip. Yeah, of course, it's fruity pebbles. Vain popping out of my head. Crouch, could you imagine your mouth so bleeding while you're trying to finish? Oopsie! Move it! Oh, good God! Cut the roof! Oh, my God! I need help! It did sound a little wet, didn't it? Right at the end. Ooh. Let's have a smell, all right? Ooh, wafting, wafting. Oh, everyone likes their own brand, don't they? This is magic. Oh. Help me. Oh, listener. Oh, no. It's Coco Pops, but I got them mixed up.
    51:25
    Which bowl were they in? Listeners, commit to us. Which bowl was I using for what? I'm Zach, and I get confused. Sorry, Zach. You know, cobs are the enemy.
    51:42
    We don't like cobs. You know what I mean? Back to real topics. Go to naparcade.org, and if you're interested in a Deep Root debacle, I was going to go with Deep Root Debacle, too. Oh, that's good. See, I like alliteration, though. So you like that, the Deep Root Debacle. Well, I'm biased towards alliteration. Okay.
    51:58
    There's probably a joke there, but I missed it. And if you want to hear more information about Deep Root Pinball, Stephen Kandel, he was an animator at the Deep Root Utah Studio. He's also the individual who did the updated visuals to TMNT with the April O'Neil mod. Oh, okay. I've heard about this. I can't say enough about how spectacular he is as an animator. He's done so far. I don't want to botch it, but some really high-profile comedy, so much so that Pinball can't afford his animation. Neither could Deep Root, and they stopped paying him, so he left. But he was interviewed by Canada's Pinball Podcast. So if you want to hear, he was very bold, very bold with some of his statements. So you can go listen to that as well. You will. This isn't a knock on you, Canada, but you're going to have to pay for that one. That's behind a paywall, so you're going to have to throw in $5 if you want to hear that episode. Or get it from a friend. Sorry, Canada. I'll send you a link. So, Dennis, after listening to the Deep Root, I hope you listened to the Blueberry Johnson one. If not, I'm giving up at this point. No, I did. And seeing the Nap Arcade stuff. What is your take on it? Are you tired of Deep Root stuff? Is it still surprising you? Do you find it interesting? What's your take? It's interesting. I know some people get tired about hearing about the negativity on it. And I understand that perspective. I am a big believer in that you need to learn from the history and mistakes of the past. And just sweeping it under because it's inconvenient is not the best outcome. And this is just another in a long line of failure from Zidware to Skit B to Von E.D. I mean, at Highway, I mean, we've had various forms of failure at various levels throughout the history of pinball. So this isn't new. I think this one was just interesting because of the breadth, the dollars involved. So grand. Yeah, yeah. And in terms of what was presented, while there was a lot of new information, the only part that really surprised me, it wasn't like a gasp shock, but just like trademark. I hadn't really thought about it, was the details that Blueberry indicated were alleged from one prior person about just what went on when they were trying to get the Razzas ready for the Deep Six. Oh, how great was that? Like, as a story narrative, whether you're sick of hearing of Deep Root or not, that story narrative is entertaining from a storytelling perspective. Just to hear about this struggle, the essentially video game crunch happening in a pinball scenario, because you had someone who committed to reveal time and didn't want to look bad and change it when things weren't ready, yet didn't help with any of that preparation. and the constant just last-minute, oh, can we do this? Nor did the designer of the game. Yeah, yeah. And being behind security passcodes where you couldn't even go and talk to your boss because you didn't have authorization to go to that wing of the building. Then there's paycheck after paycheck after paycheck. But the purchases, the continuing just high-dollar purchases of equipment, that wasn't even right. That's what shocked me. I was less surprised about that, I think, only because it had already been well established to me that they really did not know how to do the manufacturing side of it. Like, they were never ready on the manufacturing side, and that would suggest no one was really being consulted who understood the manufacturing, so that they were ordering the wrong equipment, to me, just fit with the whole narrative that no one knew how to build anything. Or those who were there who did have that background, you know, those veteran designers who might have been familiar with the line, weren't being consulted with how to put it together. You know what also kind of really hit home for me as a good reminder, and I think it's good for those of you who really consider yourself hobbyists and you're listening to Pinball Podcast, so you likely are, is that we do give a lot of credit to pinball designers, rightfully so, in a lot of situations. But, boy, the bread and butter really comes down to that team's engineer. And we know that the engineer, Dennis, on some of the examples they used was so inept, reportedly, allegedly, inept, that it was never going to work. These hundreds of thousands of dollars, millions of dollars worth of machinery, if you can't have an engineer that can design some of the designer stuff or engineers and machinists that know how to use this equipment, it doesn't matter how great your foam core is. It doesn't matter how great your code is, which was another issue. Steve Baden may have been formulating all of this code and the structure, but to actually get it coded was by an outside party, and that was a damn mess too. But I really think it hits home to Berrio is a great designer. Love you, Popeye.
    56:46
    Nordman, great designer. But they all said the same thing over the past years. I need an engineer. Where is he? I need my engineer. So I think sometimes you're going to hear this from me going forward. I want to hear more about the engineers at these manufacturers. I want to hear about the Harrison Drake's. I want to hear about the Ellie Eisman Those are the unsung heroes and I think probably rightfully so the geniuses behind the scenes in a lot of what we love in pinball Yay Boy what a failure that was A lot of stuff made me giggle. Yes, my favorite, of course, is the internal playfield removal carousel tool.
    57:27
    I knew you'd have to bring this up. It's my favorite. When you go to the NAP Arcade site and click on the blueberry info dump, it's the very first video in it. It's great. It is meme-worthy. It is pinball viral-worthy. And I don't know, maybe soon you'll be willing to share your own created. I don't know, because, you know, with that reputation that I have of being second nicest, I don't know about me making memes that the expensive, non-working mechanical equipment is really for the best. Oh, Dennis, that's so good. That might be more of an inside voice thing. Maybe we put that behind a paywall. Yes.
    58:07
    I don't know if it's that good. It's so good. Dennis, to many of his friends, will share some of his creations. And I was wiping tears from my eyes on that one. Unfortunately, listener and Dennis, we're kind of getting accustomed to all these failed approaches at producing and manufacturing pinball machines. I'm very used to it. We're seeing it again this week. We had the exciting news from NAP Arcade that there may, in fact, be a future Dragon's Lair-themed pinball machine. Did you see this story? I saw the whole interesting arc of this story. Keep in mind, listener, I was contacted by this individual who was working on this Dragon's Lair pinball project several years ago. Really? Yes, yes. I just hadn't publicly talked about it. I don't think I know this story. Yeah, I didn't say anything because it's almost like a thing where, and I told the guy, you know, I will cover it. Because he was wanting to know if SDTM would do some, you know, promotion stuff. I said I would cover it once it becomes a thing. Once we are closer, because otherwise, I told him what I recommend all of some of these homebrew guys or these even early manufacturers look to my own home. But they do contact me for consultation stuff and I'll give them some advice. And I gave him the same advice I give everybody document, document, document. If you want this to turn into a people's story kind of thing, document the hell out of it. Don't release any of it. And then upon releasing it right before, then you'll have a piece or even pieces for me to edit together a story for you and do that. And he'd been updating me, and it was really interesting stuff. I didn't grow up with the Dragon's Lair arcade as a predominant theme in my childhood. I knew of it. I knew of its beauty. It intrigued me because of the animation and the difficulty level. It still does, the arcade. but when they were doing it, I thought, I don't know if that's a strong enough theme. Then he showed me some pictures and I thought, damn, this kind of looks awesome. And then I just left it at that. But he went public with a Kickstarter campaign, the creator of this, and wanted Kickstarter money to get this project going. And even there, Dennis, I was like, wait a minute, this is not a good idea.
    60:19
    Yeah, and I don't back, I don't ever back Kickstarters. I never have. No, neither do I. And I don't blame people turning to it. I just, but I don't like the model as a consumer, so I don't engage in it. I can see it for, it has worked for other industries. I mean, video games has worked, right? I totally understand why someone would choose to do Kickstarter as a creator. I mean, imagine mitigating all of your expense risk to other people who get no equity in your product. You get them a little perk. No, it's brilliant. I mean, if I was developing stuff, I would probably use it, quite frankly, because it's like all the wins go to the creator. But not for the complexity of pinball machines. It's just the problem where I think most Kickstarters struggle is when you're talking really high-dollar things. That's right. Not necessarily even high dollars that you have to raise, but high-dollar commitments. I mean, a pinball machine ultimately is a very expensive purchase for a consumer. It's not like a video game or a book or, you know, all sorts of normal stuff like a Kickstarter. If you can't figure out how to do a Kickstarter campaign to fund a coffee table book about pinball, then I don't think an actual Kickstarter campaign for a company is going to work. And that's a good point because that's something where, like, I totally understand why people would be like, well, you know, I'm getting a book and it's not a huge dollar commitment. I'm going to go ahead and do it. And then you're like, why is this struggling? Like, people do books all the time. Once you met your goal, why are they failing? Four years later.
    61:50
    It's been four years. Where's my book? Is it near my engineer? In hell. Why isn't she popping out with a single coil topper?
    62:02
    Don't hate on that topper. It's $1,000, and I didn't even get two coils. So anyway, they came out with this Kickstarter campaign, showed it off. People, I think, overall, some people were naysayers, but people showed a large general interest in this theme and the design of what they were showing. Was it the design or is it just the art? Because I didn't look into the game itself. Maybe that's my mess up because I have seen some of the actual design elements of it. It was mostly just art, I think, that was shown publicly.
    62:35
    I mean, Dragon's Lair, excuse me, that's from my time. As a child, I loved Dragon's Lair. I loved going to the showbiz. I didn't get anywhere in it because it's not like a normal game. It's a latest game, yeah. Yeah, yeah.
    62:52
    Gameplay-wise, a lot of people didn't really like it because all it was was memorizing patterns and then moving the stick or clicking the button at the right time. I call it remote control games. Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's so weird. It's a bunch of quick-time events. That's all it really is. And I hate quick time event games. But when I was a kid, that it was fully animated, that was what was impressive about it. Because everything else was just like asteroids and Donkey Kong. The Don Bluth stuff. Simple graphics. Beautiful. You weren't looking at this Bluth animation. It was visually very attractive. So all that's really going for that game is art. I'm trying to think some of the stuff I've seen. It had like the serpent or the serpentine. and it was almost like a habit trail, but it was a single. I don't know if he was using a magnet to get it to drag. There were some interesting things. I didn't see it working. Yeah, I mean, I looked at a playfield shot. I just didn't study it. Okay. Yeah, I mean, visually, I could see why people would be interested in the game. Yeah, it looked like it played the part. It looked like a full-blown design. And consumer-wise, I could see why they would lose a lot of interest the moment a Kickstarter was attempted. Yes. Unfortunately, Nap Arcade reporting that days later, The IP owners of Dragon's Lair sent a cease and desist Because the creator didn't have the license rights to use that IP And the sad thing is He had kind of been lying Not kind of, but he'd been lying He was telling people he had the license Almost felt like a Skip Bee thing again I've got the Predator license Yeah, he called the back of the D on the number Now we have to upgrade to a Blu-ray case He called the back of the number on the Blu-ray He claimed that he had the rights to this and the representation came out for that property and said, no, you don't have rights. And not only that, you need to stop what you're doing and scour the Internet and get rid of anything that you have produced and put out there. That led some people to be like, well, wait a minute, he hasn't produced anything, so why are these people jumping on his case? But I agree with the IP holders here. He had intentions to. It wasn't like they were grilling him, doing his homebrew in his basement years ago. It was when he announced he was going to try to get this going. Yeah, once it became clear, and again, I'm not an attorney or nothing. I started this podcast to be construed as legal advice. My understanding was he had expressed commercial intent to move forward on a commercial project, which obviously would relate to the IP holders. I don't think anyone, like if you went and you had photos from him that you put on your website, I don't think you can go into ManPenside, take any of the photos down. I don't think any news article that covered it has to worry about what they have listed. because that is just reporting on information that was coming out at the time. But, yeah, basically, again, it's the C&D. It's not – they didn't sue him. They gave him the C&D, and this is what they want to respect the IP. Given this and given what his prior statements were, I just don't see how this ever moves forward now. I consider this a dead project, entirely dead. Do you think even if he had the money to do so and the proof of concept and a built machine, do you think they now don't give him the time or day? money talks so the IP holders could potentially come around I don't know how well the public I still remember way back I remember all these failures I've not been around Day Fix long but I've been around a while and I still remember how hard it was for the Dutch pinball folks to unring the bell when they lied to people it was very very very difficult about when they were having issues with the contract manufacturer but they had indicated it was other problems. Oh, yeah. And that was just about what was going on. I mean, it was just what was going on, like, behind the scenes. They had the license and everything. They didn't have anything that would necessarily impact the consumer in a particularly direct way. But they were struggling with the contract manufacturer, and they were saying there was other stuff that was causing the delays. And, I mean, I'm sure there are people to this day who have not and will never forgive them for it. Sure. And they had repeatedly come out and apologized for the deception. yeah I just when you don't have the funding to do it he might be able to get the IP holders on board by you know coming up with a license agreement this CND I don't think is personal I think he could hammer something out with them but I don't know yeah yeah because everyone's going to be like well you weren't even you implied you had something that you didn't from the get go why would we trust you on any step of the way of this process And with licensing, we know there, in these contracts, there's a lot of it that isn't paid in full beforehand. There's a lot of contingencies here. You pay us a minimum of this for this many units, and then every unit after. It's not a cut and dry kind of thing. So to go further on this, Dennis, we know that hobbyists have been begging for video game license to see their way into new pinball machines, or especially retro gaming, the likes of like Zelda, Nintendo-based stuff, Mario. Do you think Dragon's Lair is a viable license for pinball in the 21st century?
    68:06
    Yeah, but I don't think it'll be a huge hit. I mean, again, it's more like how Ghostbusters played up the nostalgia. If the game played well in particular, I think there are a lot of people who have money who, you know, their formative arcade years were in the 80s. those people are not particularly old and they've got funds and Dragon's Lair was a huge I mean it was a huge thing when it came out I mean this was a game that could command 50 cents in the arcade when everything else was getting a quarter and it went on to create the likes of Dragon's Lair 2 Space Age so yes this is I mean it's not a top tier video game license but given you're targeting people that are probably you know a lot and the demographics are changing now, but a lot of historic pinball collectors, they were arcade gamers. And so appealing to an arcade game, you know, you would see a Dragon's Lair in a place where you would go and play pinball. So, yeah, no, it's not a bad one. I agree. Yeah. I agree. My argument would be, and follow me here, listener, back during those 80s, what Dragon's Lair has is something that I always harp on. I always am on this, and I still feel it's just as true today. when you go with a license and nostalgia pulling those member berries heartstrings you want something that the consumer can relate to and feel emotion to and what Dragon's Lair had in the 80's that nearly no other video games I would argue had during that time is you had this type of animation that was so beautiful and so clear that told a story so well better than an Asteroids or a Galaga that the consumer, because that's why it was popular, because you felt that animation because you watched Disney films growing up. So it pulled you in because you really had that relationship with that artwork because it told that story and it emoted a hell of a lot better than anything else around it. And I think that's, along with the difficulty, that was along, that's what its popularity was and that's why I do think, call me crazy, but I think Dragon's Lair is one of the best retro gaming licenses to use. One of the things that I think is really nice about the idea is because of how the game was played, because of the QTE style, QuickTime event style, that the gameplay relied upon, I think if you had full access to the assets, it would lend itself incredibly well to pinball because the order of the rooms and stuff in the game was randomized. I mean, it was irrelevant. It didn't matter. You did scene to scene to scene and you were going along while you were trying to get to the final area. So given that, every time the ball drained, you could just do any randomized death of Dirk. Of Dirk, yeah. And you do a shot, and if you completed certain shots, you could have just any particular room cleared. You'd have one little scene, and you'd do another little scene. So I think it actually could integrate really, really cleanly without requiring, if you had the full laser disc assets at your disposal, you could tie it into the pinball game pretty well by just following the boxes that were ticked by the video game version. A smaller company nonetheless, right? Like an American pinball. Or how about a multimorphic? Yeah, but does anyone want to touch it now? Does this taint it too much? I don't think so. You've got a big LCD screen on the play field of a P3. What better? You know? Eh.
    71:36
    And the format of, maybe I'm diving way too deep here, with the format of a Dragon's Lair as a 4-3 ratio, so it's not the 16-9 widescreen that you need. So format-wise, it makes even more sense for a play field. I don't know. Jerry, happy birthday. Go look into that one. I don't think it's dead. I think there's still something there, if it's not too pricey. Well, I think this individual's project is dead. His project is dead, yeah. But maybe hire him on as a consultant to help with some of it. I don't know. Why?
    72:06
    Because he had some good work. He had conceptually some interesting ideas. For example, if Multimorphic were to take it, they would need his art. No, but... Because they don't do play field art. No, but if I'm trying to build a theme around something, I want people who are super passionate about it that can check the boxes that I'm going to miss. And if he's passionate enough to go this far, the passion's there. I don't know. Steven Silver? What do you think? I don't know. So, Chicago Gaming Company, what do you think they think about this? This is not a CGC game, right? No, I think they're still just trying to get the remakes out.
    72:45
    No, I don't think CGC would make this game. They're making Cactus Canyon SEs right now, Dennis. They're still kind of creeping out of their factory. What about the LEs, Zach? That's what everyone wants to know about. I know. There's no word. I did message. I did my due diligence, and I messaged my buddy Ryan over there this morning before the podcast, and said, hey, any updates maybe? Tell me percentage-wise how much you are through this first SE run that you guys are wanting to do before transitioning to LES. And let me check my phone here.
    73:17
    No response. Well, it is the weekend. Spoilers when we're recording, folks. I did message my friend at Stern that was responsible for some of the Topper stuff too and asked them for an update, and they said, nothing at this time, and you're up way too early. I thought you were going to say, I also messaged Stern to find out if they could tell me what was going on with the Captain's Couch in L.E. And they goes, well, our spies have indicated that it's another three months out. That's right. Well, some people are calling for the L.E.s. They were like, I've heard the L.E.s are six to eight months out. And I'm like, oh, shit. As a dealer, we haven't been told anything, frankly. So I don't know. We've received, I don't know if people care about this percentage-wise, but 15% of our SE orders, that's what worries me. 15%, 20%. That doesn't seem like a lot. That's not like what you're expecting on the Deadpools. Yeah, well, that's true. It is true. That's 30%. That's an old title, though. Well, Cactus King. 90%. Okay. 2C.
    74:28
    I'm guessing more SEs. I just don't know if they're going to fulfill as much as they can of SEs before running on to the LE, or if they're just going to say, hey, we're going to shoot for 30% or 50% of the SEs we have ordered from dealers and then move on. I don't know. Are you recommending, Zach, that people convert from the LE to the SE? No. Would they get a game faster if they converted? See, that's why when people ask that, because they will specifically ask that, I don't want to lie, so I just tell them I simply don't know. Okay. I really don't know. And we have been told that SE Pluses will come after the LEs. I do believe that they'll run all the LEs at once because that kind of makes sense if they have the parts just to get those LEs. I still think I worry about the parts of that topper for the LE and the SE Plus. But the parts delays and stuff, eh?
    75:18
    So maybe we see. Who knows? I need to reach out to them. If there's a jackpinball, I don't have to reach out. I need to, I guess, formally reach out to them. On the phone? Oh, that was, yeah, that was way too informal. That was just a buddy text. Buddy text, yes. That's a little bitty. Eh, just a little buddy text. Jersey Jack Panball, got plenty of buddies over there. And Nap Arcade's a buddy of mine. Nap Arcade's speculating that JJP Factory tours are being paused at the moment, Dennis. So you better cancel your trip to Elk Grove Village. Beautiful upstate Illinois. Actually, I don't know if that's upstate or not. Yeah, they're being paused because the company is preparing their line for their next game release. Well, that would make sense. Rumored as Toy Story. That's just what NAP Arcade is speculating. This last week, RB Flip, friends from overseas, media creators, they did a nice factory tour video of Jersey Jack Pinball. You have to check that out. Subtitles on because I didn't know what the hell they were saying. They were seducing me with what they were saying. Your French is incredible. Oh, hell no. Such a sexy language. Zach, let me ask you a question about while we're on Jersey Jack. Let me give you an answer. All right. When's Toy Story being released?
    76:34
    The rumored Toy Story? Yes, the rumored. The rumored Toy Story. They do know, right, that to infinity and beyond is not a suggestion on production approach, right? That's just a line in the show, right? That's another T-shirt idea. I just picture Buzz Lightyear on top of that staircase now. I'm still guessing June. That's my guess.
    76:56
    I'm guessing June. Wouldn't be surprised if it was summer. Summer? Late summer? Because I think what there's jack and a lot of manufacturers do, they think they have all their eggs. Is it eggs in a row? It's eggs in a basket. Ducks in a row. Eggs in a basket. Why are ducks in a row, but eggs have to be in a basket? Well, how else would you carry the eggs? Like two at a time, one in each hand? A carton. Okay. A carton. They don't come pre-cartoned.
    77:22
    Why are we putting ducks in a row? Most people don't come out on the farm with one of those cartons and start sticking eggs directly into the cartons. I guess ducks naturally are in a row. They walk in a row. So the baby duck is behind the mama duck. Well, maybe we're talking about the baby duck. Why do we say the proof's in the pudding instead of saying the proof is the pudding? because the expression is the proof of the pudding is in the eating, but that's a long thing to say, so it got changed to the proof is in the pudding. Yeah, well, there you go. The more you know. What's your favorite kind of pudding?
    78:00
    Tapioca. Of course it is. Your spirit pudding is tapioca. Your spirit pudding. Spirit pudding. What was mine? You remember the TPN pudding that George Fisher did? I do remember that. That was clever. That is very clever. He's pretty clever. He's a very clever, talented young man. What spirit pudding would I be? You know me very well.
    78:22
    Don't fuck this up. It's a layup. Chocolate. You fucked it up. Really? I don't know you at all. I go beyond chocolate. Dark chocolate? Ugh, bitter. No, thanks. No, my spirit pudding is most certainly a banana pudding with wafers on top. Oh, my God. So pretentious. It is. That's what it is. I've got to have my topper.
    78:53
    I've got to have my little Nella wafer topper. All right. Now, that is an idea. Edible toppers. So people have to keep buying them. It's just like the perfect distro topper. I love that idea, actually. All right, Nap Arcade. You've got to tell us when this rumor toy store is coming out. Pat Lawler game. Is he going to knock everybody's socks off? I think it will be pretty well received. I think both of his J.J.P. designs have been very good. I've enjoyed them. But have they been the best sellers?
    79:20
    No. Obviously, Guns N' Roses has been an incredible seller. We know Dialed In really suffered with not having a license. Guns N' Roses has outsold both of the Lawler games, I think. I would say combined, probably. Oh, yeah. I mean, did anything, maybe Pirates, because they cut it, didn't sell as much as Dialed In. But otherwise, I'd say Dialed In was their worst-selling game, which is unfortunate. I actually think it's their best game. I'm really eager to play the next Pat Lawler game because I, myself, I agree. I tend to go towards that. I still have my Willy Wonka and love it to death. It'll never leave. dialed in would have never left if it was something different.
    80:06
    Willy Wonka's pretty good. The problem with Willy Wonka was the hype machine got way out of hand on that. You remember the game was going to have different colored balls in honor of the Gobstoppers and the game would know which color ball was in play and it would be like everyone was like a Powerball but it did a different thing. It's the most ridiculous sort of tech stuff that no one has achieved. And then it was just a good game. And people are like, eh. I'm just cautious on a rumored Toy Story game because it is a dream theme for so many people. It's such a wonderful theme that lends itself to pinball. Anytime something seems too good to be true, I worry about it. Same with it being a Disney license. what Disney license have we been given in pinball that was just dynamite? They're so restrictive. Well, I mean, they are on assets, but, I mean, game-wise, Guardians of the Galaxy got pretty well received. Yes, it did. And Mandalorian as well. Okay. I'm thinking Star Wars kind of stuff. That's because people got frustrated because the Star Wars art design on the play field was like the same that they saw in every lunchbox ever. But then the comic edition came out and people were like, oh, that's cool. It's super hand-drawn now. Yeah, same as Randy Martinez. What if, on Toy Story, Zach, what if it is, though, one of those more Star Wars, pure, you know, original trilogy, super restrictive things, and they didn't get the right to use any of the toys.
    81:52
    It's just like the kids. They got the human characters, but not the toys. I'm going to be frank. That's a complete and utter fail. Or why did each of the toys control its own license, so they couldn't get potato heads? No, I could see that. That I could see. That's just sketch.
    82:09
    Sorry, we couldn't afford Slinky. I could see that if they are properties. But my expectations are very low for this game. Really? Just because I'm setting them for myself. Why? Because I want it so bad. I'm just prepping myself. Well, you're going to get it no matter what because that's the sort of person you are. I can't think of, yeah, anything that Lawler's done at JJP I've thought shot just phenomenal. So, if the shoot's good, I'm good. One piece of advice for you, Zach. Yeah. When you buy it, you're going to get your LE. Collectors, yes. Yeah, your collector's edition. You can't announce that you're selling it publicly.
    82:50
    Because that's against the rule. Love you, Jack G. You can't sell games that you bought from JJP. Keep it quiet.
    83:00
    It's always great to hear Nordman coming back, and I'll let him whisper sweet nothings into my ear. It's time for Pinball Market Trends. Oh! There's nothing better than getting an intro to Pinball Market Trends by Mr. Nordman himself. Thank you, Nordman. I was waiting for a... No problem.
    83:22
    I only dance by the light of the pale moonlight and a flashlight that my engineer shines so I can see my ramps. What show was I watching that the British call flashlight something else? Torch. Yes, a torch. No, that's what they always call it. You got to get the torch out of the boot. Yeah, and I was like, this is not a torch. A torch is fire.
    83:45
    It's artificial fire, hence the name. I don't know why I'm Seinfeld. Why do they call it a torch? A torch involves fire. Thank you, Nordman. Whispering sweet nothings. Oh, speaking of whisper, I want you guys to get real close to the speaker. I'm going to whisper what's trending this week. You ready? Turning up this week is the current American Pinball Deluxe models. Hear me out. And the upcoming small runs of said models. Oktoberfest Deluxe and Houdini Deluxe. Get them before they're gone because Bob Dylan said changes are coming, didn't he? Yeah, I think so. Or does he say Popo's a real one still? I don't know. Changes are coming. Your head's about to be changed. Your toys are about to be changed. So I think training up is the value of these deluxe models that we currently have for Oktoberfest and Houdini. Moving forward with them, are you worried that it's going to be like one of those artistic restorations where the person doesn't know what they're doing and they come in and then this famous painting just looks like a potato? Well, I mean, what are we going to say now? Picasso did watercolors? I don't know if you've ever seen the, have you ever seen those restoration things? Oh, I got to show you.
    85:01
    I will, I will. It's like fucking Leroy Jenkins I had no clue about. It's the super famous. Yeah, this has happened a few times. I'm going to send you the most famous one, though, that ever happened. So there was this classic historic art piece. Oh, I've seen it. Okay. And they hired a restorer to clean it, to fix it.
    85:28
    So that was what I meant was that we have our deluxe version. And you know what? We're going to make a new version.
    85:38
    Welcome to Potato Face. So I just But you know what Yeah Jesus See imagine Bobby Jesus painting But then it became a potato But you know what That box painting of Jesus I guarantee is worth millions That worst restoration of all time. Is it Eisei? Eisei Homo? You know, I don't know if it's worth millions, Zach. I almost guarantee you it is. The potato-fication of that is pretty bad. It looks like something that goes... I mean, if it was on my wall, I would probably laugh every time I saw it.
    86:17
    I like my Jesus looking like Chewbacca. All furry and curly. I'm just looking at it right now, and I'm just like, the eyes. The owl eyes. Have you ever looked at an AC homo? He's got dead eyes and doll's eyes. That's awesome. until its potato face bites into you and those eyes roll white. The transformation of potato is complete. Why do you all want Jaws? Why do you want it? I don't understand. All right. I want to see that of a Jaws.
    86:56
    Okay. It's so bad. I'm sure American Pinball will do a good job. I want them to do a theme around that. Chewbacca Jesus. Didn't Jesus say Rising action leads to the hydra Chewbacca Jesus Oh my gosh I can just picture him saying Take this This represents my body I feel bad Because this is an audio medium And people I know this is a really famous Restoration I mean it is People can search it It is dubbed the worst art restoration of all time.
    87:39
    See, I don't think it looks like Chewbacca. I think it looks like a potato. I think it looks like Chewbacca. Drink this wine. It's a representation of my... That's horrible. So that's what's training up is the deluxe models, the current deluxe models pre-circa 2023, I guess, is what we're going to say. Get them while they're hot. Also training up this week is Stern's Guardians of the Galaxy. We were just talking about that. How about that? Yeah, about Disney and how they don't like games to be good. Oh, wait. There's Guardians. There's Guardians of the Galaxy. Ellie's. Did you know this, Dennis? You're going to shit a brick here. Ellie's are now going for $16,000 plus. Holy cow. Pull me in your little Groot arms. I am what the fuck?
    88:26
    Have you not seen that gold? What the fuck is that? I am. God, my Chewbacca wars are worse than my Gull one. Oh, man. My Chewbacca's off today. I usually do.
    88:41
    I usually do. I usually do them good, but no, it's not good today. Yeah, at least with the gold trim, $16,000 plus. Premiums still holding $11,000 plus. Even the pros. The pleebly pros? The pleebly pros. Seashells, seashells, seashells, seashells. Pros are $7,000 to $8,000 plus. Well, talk about bubbly bobo. You better be Mary Poppins, yo, if you want to hope to get high enough up to reach those prices.
    89:09
    Did you see that Star-Lord is in the new Thunder and whatever Thor movie? Yes, I did. I saw that trailer. Gosh, I can't wait to see that one. But have you seen the new Batman? No, I have not. I actually did just watch the Halloween 2018 and the Halloween Kills sequel, though. Okay, what's your takes?
    89:31
    2018 is better than the sequel. Both are better than the game. That's fair. Shout out to Joel Engelberg. I was going to trend down this week, The Batman with Robert Pattinson. But I haven't made it through, so it could redeem itself. You got some blowback from your Spider-Man comments. I guess you made some Spider-Man comments on the last show. You would have fucking known if you were listening. I know because I read the Pinside forum thread And people were like Dude why are you hating on Toby and Andrew I know I start calling you Tony And listen to the episodes I listen to most of it The gold comes in the end Yeah have you seen that show that movie yet Yeah And your thoughts I liked it Bullshit Don't be contrarian Real masterpiece there wasn't it Man It's a Marvel movie It's going to be, to a degree, paint by numbers, but it seems like the directors have been having more freedom than they did in the first phase. The entire premise was flawed. How stupid was that? Did you really believe Doctor Strange was like, do this, do this, do this? Oh, now, and I may be wrong, Zach. Here's my theory. Here's my Marvel theory. I think that that is not the normal Doctor Strange. I think that is evil alternate universe Doctor Strange and he wanted to screw things up. The one from the animated series. Oh. So, variant. Yes. Basically, yeah. And it would explain why he did it and allowed it all. And it seemed so uncaring after it all got screwed up. See? That's actually really smart. That could fix it. Still can't fix the lack of love for Andrew Garfield. What? I thought they paid him far more respect. Now, part of that's just because... He was the heel. No. He was the heel of the Spider-Man trio. He got that big, huge rescue scene to make up for his failed rescue in his series of movies. Yeah, what was that? That sexual kind of tension there? I don't know if they were going for that so much as just a, hey, look, we're kind of following the same beats that he already went through, but the outcome was different this time. I actually thought part of this was probably because he was the first old Spider-Man that they showed that it really took away from Tobey Maguire's reveal because everyone knew that was coming. They really built up Toby the whole time. No, they... The whole time. Yeah, he got the big fight with the... But Goblin was his villain, and William Dafoe is, like, the best villain they ever had, so of course you had to play him up. He was really good. Andrew Garfield got the funny, I'm on the ceiling cleaning up cobwebs thing. They used Jamie Foxx too much. That wasn't a really great villain.
    92:18
    Jamie... Well, see, the thing is, Andrew Garfield aside, Andrew Garfield's movies were not very good. I'm not saying they were great either. Let's not forget they were good. But I'm saying everybody's heralding this series as, oh, they finally fixed what Andrew Garfield fucked up. No, no. No. I'm not that impressed. I wouldn't say they fixed everything, but... I'm not that impressed. When you're shoehorning that many villains and stuff in, you're competing with a lot of... I mean, it's not the best of the Spider-Man movies, but I enjoyed the movie. Okay. Do you think that in another multiverse, do you think you and I would still be doing a podcast together And if so, what would the subject be about?
    92:55
    Andrew Garfield had sexual tension with Mary Jane in a different universe. Yeah, sure. Maybe, you know. I think we would still be podcasting pinball, but we would be on rival shows. Ooh, saucy. You don't think we'd ever meet up and collab? I think we would meet at Expo, and people would gather around, and they would record us as we had this awkward discussion for 45 minutes. Would somebody rope our hands together and we have knives at the end?
    93:24
    What is that called? An Ozark knife fight? I forget. There's something dual. There's a movie about it. That was a dual style. I forget what it was called. Of course, you know that reference, but not the fucking Michael Jackson reference.
    93:39
    Also trending down this week is apparently not doing a background check and fully vetting everyone on your Facebook friends list. Word to the wise out there, in efforts not to be canceled, you just may want to take a day or so, go through your Facebook friends list just to monitor their behavior, because if you do find someone that could be a troll account, or even somebody that's just a genuine turd, delete them immediately, or you could face the public accusation of being an accomplice to their wacky statements. I, listener, I can't make this shit up.
    94:15
    I'm into my job, so here I go. Also trending down this week is the deep fail Bobby Mueller cabinet video. Oh, it's my favorite video. It's better than my Spider-Man.
    94:32
    I just picture poor Bobby Mueller as he's struggling. You see how happy he was? Look at this fucking innovation. I'm about to slap my dick on everybody with this one. Just fucking pulling it out. Did you see how confident he was? Flipping over that play field. Look at this fucking rotisserie. Oh, yeah. Lock it in place there. Bam. And then, oh, yeah. I got some guy over here with his arms up. Yes. I nailed it. I saw it in much more movie terms. If I may sort of borrow from Spider-Man, Zach. I just saw it. There he is. Spider play field. Getting attacked by the Greed Goblin. The Greed Goblin. Spin him around. Throwing up against. And then, boom, that Spidey strength comes in at the end.
    95:18
    And the Greek Goblin's like, in this movie. Cut to commercial. Cut. Cut to the commercial. You know what it reminded me of? It reminded me of being used to going to Disney World, Universal Studios, and seeing these big steel contraptions of rides, and you feel safe. And then you go to the fucking carnival, and you see this accordion metal arm. It's going both ways. trying to fold itself in for the fucking loop-o-planes, you're going to die. That's what it reminded me of. How is this ever going to work, Deep Root Pinball? Oh, you guys have got to see this video. The confidence that quickly turned into embarrassment and a look at the camera that would even make his mom shake her head. Where did I go wrong, Bobby? Where did I go wrong? You spent so long wondering if you could You never stopped Do you think Bobby Pinball Stole his own mom's money?
    96:26
    Let's jump over to another little sub-segment Of Pinball Market Trends that we like to call Deal of the Week Buy, buy, buy! Very quickly, Deal of the Week We've got a couple this week Go on to Pinside right now And you can find yourself an Iron Maiden Legacy of the Beast Ellie with the Aces high topper. You can be like me. This is what I thought. I'm going to buy this machine even though I have an Iron Maiden Ellie. Just pull the topper and then resell the game. Shout out to Travis Meary for making that game into such a bastard that I still can't successfully play it. M-M-I-C-M-A-N is the username out of York, Maine. M-M-I-C-E-M-A-N is selling an Iron Maiden Ellie $15,000, which in and of itself, about the price. You're seeing LEs go for about $15,000, $16,000 on the secondary market for a decent-shaped one. But this one comes with that topper. That topper alone is $2,000 minimum. So you take that off the price. You're looking at a $13,000 really nice, only 88 lifetime plays Iron Maiden Legacy of the Beast LE. So few? That's a buy, buy, buy. Buy, buy, buy! I'm just amazed at that few of plays. Yeah, 88. Only 30 since the software update.
    97:36
    And look, I see other mods on here as well. They do have the speaker lights Incorrect ones But they do have some The topper's where it's at Yo That's where it's at On that game And it looks like They have the shooter rod as well The official Yep Official shooter rod From Stern I reached out to this individual I haven't had a response yet But I'll buy this game Just for the topper And I'll just Sell the game I have no problem with that If they're gonna ship Just as pickups I don't know And your last deal of the week This week It's not really a deal of the week It's kind of a deal of the week I think it was an introspection. Well, it's weird because I don't know where to put this. Maybe don't put it in the show at all. Deal with the WTF. Look, it's a minty Johnny Mnemonic, zero cab spade, no play field wear game out of Phoenix, Arizona. Going simply by the name of Toby. He's selling. McGuire? No. This is Toby's actual game. I wonder if that's how he injured his back. With great power comes great responsibility. this one is minty it plays fast zero issues a lot of photos and i've got to say this one intrigued me so much that i want to buy this game six thousand dollars though for johnny mnemonic i want to say it's the best price but when you go look at this dennis this game is legit beautiful it is clean as shit man i guess it's not that clean it's clean as my kitchen floors be clean after you finish those fruity pebbles on the shooter. Oh!
    99:09
    The shooter lane is impressive. Under the cab, impressive. Under playfield, impressive. The cabinet is beautiful. Where I'm throwing this in here is because the playfield itself does not have any wear, which can be rare on these 90s Valley Williams, but I've never seen a playfield that is begging me to clear coat it as much as this one. There is no scoop wear, Dennis. There's no scoop wear at all. But if you look at the inserts, they all have the lining, the cracked lining around them, which is common. Not a big deal. But if you clear coat this play field, because it's almost perfect. But if you clear coat this play field, you'll never have issues with those inserts lifting. You'll never have issues with it wearing anymore. This game does not need to be touched, listener, until it's clear coated fully. I know they did a proper, you know, refurb on it, but... It's true. I'm sorry. It's so terrible. It's really wrong. You took your youngest son, and you just went and you got him cleared. So when he wants you to pick him up, you just go, no, there's no lifting for you. You've been cleared.
    100:18
    It's true. You just use a pinball to solve all your parenting issues. I'm telling you right now, all the listeners that are interested in this, the restoration nice minty stuff, go find this right now, and you will see I wouldn't want another ball in this thing until it is properly clear-coated. It's so close. You know what? I would pay this person, if they're willing to have this clear-coated and shipped to me, I will pay this person an additional $1,500.
    100:43
    So I would give $7,500 for this game, and I'll pay shipping. So reach out to me, Toby. Buy, buy, buy! And we haven't had it in a while, Dennis, but this week's deals of the... What is going on with this sale? Probably a nice fella right outside of Detroit, Michigan, east of Lansing. Pac-Man 11, I love you. But I don't know what you're trying to do. Trying to sell an Elvira and the Party Monsters, Valley 1989.
    101:11
    Plays great. Done a lot over the years. Brand new displays, new Titan. All sounds good. And the game? Game looks pretty good. It's got bumps on the head. It's got fade on the cabinet. The play fields are always torched on these. This one doesn't look totally torched. your in-lane drop areas. Eh, they're kind of ugly. The game looks good, but for the life of me, you will never get $9,000 for an Elvira and the Party Monsters. Unless it's, like, restored. What is this guy doing? No. They're open to trades, Dennis, for newer games. You know, Godzilla Premium, good luck. Attack from Argon with Ellie. Wonka, Tron. But, no. You're in a different category there, bro. Now, you'd be better off looking for a Sega Godzilla. Ouch! Or a routed Attack on Mars. But not $9,000 popular. He's trying to take advantage. Like the rails are dimming. You will let the market decide. Oh, sorry, Nordman. I didn't want to upset you on your game here. It's a good game. It's a good game, but nothing's been done to this game. It's a good player's condition game. Good player's condition, Elvira and the Party Monsters. It's a $6,000 game. Save your money. go elsewhere or do the work yourself and who's to argue because as always i'm just here reporting the facts people don't kill the messenger because numbers will never lie to me or to dennis on pinball market trends and for god's sake somebody find me a bounty come on radical got a thousand dollars for you here are they really gone dennis then i mean it's such a rare game. Singez overseas, he says he's got one that's minty, but dirty, but minty. So I'm waiting for pictures. Come on, Sanjay.
    103:02
    All right, let's close it up, Dennis. Thanks for hanging out. I'm sure glad this back half went faster. I know.
    103:10
    Episode 100 changes are coming. Oh, yes, it's changed everything. Just get rid of that. It'll be quicker. Yeah. Oh, some people might like that. Most people would not, though. I don't think that episode, I don't think my solo episode did all that great. Nor should it have, really. But if people want to reach out to me regarding this episode, they can always email eclecticgamerspodcast at gmail.com or go to facebook.com slash eclecticgamerspodcast and shoot a message, and those will directly get to me. And you've got to buy a Hydra t-shirt. I did. You ain't cool unless you buy the Hydra t-shirt. Oh, went with gray, huh? No color. You know, maybe later. That's my favorite color. I thought about it. I was like, gray. Pretty much everyone agrees with wearing gray.
    103:54
    Gray is solid. It's my favorite color, too. You might want to jot that down for trivia in the future. Yeah, yeah. Vanilla wafer gray banana pudding. I got it all down. You ever met anybody with gray being their favorite color? Yeah, me. Are you serious? Yep. You're not fucking joking, are you? No, I'm not. Wow, I've never met another human being whose favorite color was gray.
    104:21
    No bullshit listening like, this made my whole day. Your day is pretty sad if that's the most exciting thing. Yeah, no. When I was a kid, it was blue, and then I was kind of like, no, I like gray more. Overcast days are my favorite. Not rainy. I just want it like the sky is wearing sunglasses. No, no. The sunnier, the better for me. Nope, Skye is wearing sunglasses, and that's pretty cool.
    104:45
    I just so want to smoke weed with you at some point. I know you don't, and I know publicly I don't, but, man, oh, man, that would be great. That would be great. And speaking of drugs, why don't you come to Flippin' Out Pinball, my business, to purchase your next pinball machine or accessory. Product showcase this week is the Avengers Infinity Quest Pro by Stern Pinball. I only say that because I do have, I believe, two left. How about it? Man, didn't I have an Avengers Premium shipped to a guy up in South Dakota? Oh, hey, yeah. FedEx really fucked that one up, eh? Man, it's like they turned it on its side and ran it down the hill. And then they tried to wrap shipping wrap around it.
    105:33
    They couldn't even do that. They tied it in a knot. And they just show up on this guy's doorstep like, so this is how it was.
    105:43
    I'll give you this quick. I may have told you this before, but I know I didn't do it on air, so I'll start here. When I got my Godzilla Premium, courtesy of my purchase with Flippin' Out Pinball, you had warned me ahead of time, Zach, because you had the game delivered to you first. You told me, hey, Dennis, the game's now coming from me over to you, but there was a hole in the box. I tore the hole bigger to make sure there was no damage to the cabinet. There wasn't. I taped the hole up. But just be aware that's why it's going to be patched like that on the box. So the local delivery people came. They wheel it in on the pallet into my garage. And I'm just going around making sure that there are no new holes in the box. And I'm just going around saying, yeah, I'm just checking the box. And I pointed at the part with the tape and I said, you had already informed me of this. That was when you had received it and you taped it. Yeah, yeah. And the delivery guy looks at it and goes, oh, well, yeah, no. If we put a hole in the box, we ain't going to the trouble of taping it. Oh, God.
    106:44
    It's like, no, if we do something like that, no, we're not going to bother. We don't bother hiding that. A very honest story. We're going to leave that hole right in there. Going around with tape. And I was like, oh, okay. FedEx Freight. Thank you for the transparency. I like their motto. FedEx Freight. At least we're honest.
    107:03
    Yeah. And he was like, it was just here, and I didn't want to wait for another machine, and I was just hoping for the best, even though I knew it was the cabinet decal. And he's like, but I don't think I can deal with this. And I'm like, no, absolutely not. We're not going to deal with this. So I did have an extra one. We got it shipped out today, and I'll wait a couple months for Stern to fix that one. So it was a good ending to the tale, but I just don't understand the depth of some of the damage that I see, and I'm like, just how?
    107:36
    Just how does this happen? But you feel good with flipping out pinball. We'll take care of it. We've got Guns N' Roses, the LEs in stock. Ooh, get you some Art Blades, Topper, Banner. We've got all of that, actually. Still waiting for the Insider Connected Premium LE kits, but we do have Pro Kits in stock, Dennis, which doesn't matter on your collection because you don't need any of those. Taking some Alien Pre-Orgs. We have that Batman 66 LE that's pre-owned. I've actually listed a lot of games for sale. Check out all the stuff we have in stock. We've got Mandalorian Premium that's pre-owned right now. We have a Monsters Pro or Rush Pro pre-owned. We have a Game of Thrones LE pre-owned. We have a Led Zeppelin Premium with mods that's pre-owned. Stranger Things Premium still in the box. Elvira's House of Horrors 40th Anniversary Edition still in the box. Star Wars Comic Premium or an LE, both pre-owned. We have the Home Editions as well. Iron Maiden Premium, pretty much new. It's pre-owned. Jurassic Park, premium for sale. TMNT, Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles, premium or LE, both pre-owned. Deadpool LE. The LE might be gone. But Deadpool LE I do have. Batman 66 LE I have. Just got in. A Simpsons Pinball Party. Minty as they come. Loaded with very nice mods. Powdercoat. Got that as well. A Corvette. Hard to find. George Gomez's first production design. Pinball machine. Got that. Revenge of Mars. A Maverick. I'm stocked up. Toppers. I got TMNT toppers, Stranger Things toppers, Deadpool toppers, Guns N' Roses toppers. Hell, I even have an IJ Deluxe topper from Elite Pinball. Armor. Godzilla. Mando. Led Zeppelin. Avengers. TMNT. Shooter rods. Damn near all of them. Art blades. Damn near all of them. Banners. Damn near all of them. Hell, I even have Shaker Motors. Dust covers. Deadpool. Ninja. Star Pop. Bumper Cap Kids. It's 812-457-9711. One text is the quickest response time, or you can just email me, Zach, Z-A-C-H, at flip, the letter N, outpinball.com. And we do have our website updated with all of this wonderful new accessories, so flippingoutpinball.com. Bye, bye, bye. And last but certainly not least, for Flippin' Out Pinball, we have, Nicole and I actually have a big old announcement, really big exciting announcement coming this week. A new baby. Oh, no. God, no. Jeez, but I do love the babies. I didn't get any bad feedback about biting babies last week, So that was good. Baby, it's lunch for dinner. Maybe it's common. Don't you like how babies smell? Come here, I'm going to eat you. I'm bigger than you. I'm higher in the food chain. Get in my belly. But they smell like Johnson and Johnson. Okay, maybe that's what I thought. Not the vaccine, but like the... They smell like the vaccine. No, I said not like the vaccine. I know. Like a booster shot. Yeah. I want my baby back, baby back, baby back, baby back, baby back. For those folks curious, on the Pinball Network last week, we had several podcasts. We had the Final Round Pinball Podcast with guest host Albert Agar. We had Triple Drain Pinball Podcast without typical third ball. Or is he the second ball? I don't know. Tom. Oh, poor, poor team. What happened? But Tom, you have to listen to my podcast. Is there a rift brewing? What's going on there? And this wasn't last week, but prior week, we actually had an off the record. We had a submission called The Pinball Tapes. Check that out. Feedback has been very good. Actually, go ahead and tell you. We don't usually go into numbers publicly. Numbers a lot. But it is our most downloaded off-the-record episode ever. Holy moly. I need to check that out. Nice. Yep. I can see why. That was a really good show. Yeah. And you all might want to check out Hup Challenge's stream, which was yesterday of the Cactus Canyon remake. Oh, yes. Very nice. All the love, TPN. Thank you, Dennis. And this week we have that continued TPN Babies Contest to win all kinds of stuff. All you've got to do is guess what TPN content provider. Baby picture is on our Facebook page. Make sure you're following and liking all of that stuff. And we have some upcoming events. I think the Bunker event is coming. Go check out Tom Graff's District 82 stream a couple of weeks ago. That was a huge old whopper farm up there.
    111:49
    It's like a negative connotation. The whopper farm that is District 82. to a hell of a stream on Fox City's Pinball. And in general, if you like what we're doing here, offer us some feedback by emailing the pinballnetwork at gmail.com and buy some merchandise. Don't be a tight ass. Be-boop, be-boop. For Dennis Creasel, I'm Zach Manning. And folks, just always remember, to infinity and beyond is an inspirational statement. It is not a pinball design philosophy. And always practice safe pinball. And you can purchase almost anything from Stern Pinball. But the one thing you cannot do is buy a stairway to Hydra. See you next week. There's a sign on the wall. But she wants to be sure. These riffs are speaking.
    112:39
    You say that every time. I know. The devil is going faster. There's a normal speed. I just need to shut up. Just shut the fuck up. Quit talking about deep room. My name is Nordman. And I need a fucking engineer giving me a responsibility to make a beautiful layout. I need a co-host who's more concise. Why is that so fucking long-winded? This is exhausting.
    113:05
    What is the famous Jesus Christ saying? None of them roll off the tongue. Did Jesus say anything? Are you thinking about the thing about, like, casting the first stone and stuff, or what? Yeah, just some quips or some statements. I don't have any of those memories. What is the Jesus saying? Thou have forsaken me? No, that was classic.
    113:26
    There's got to be something. I am the Lord. Father, do not be angry with them. They know not what they do. Take my... You know how many Mass I've sat through? No, I didn't know you were Catholic. I was raised Catholic, yes. I didn't know you were raised Catholic. Oh, yeah. But the minis were Lutherans through and through. Oh, we're close enough, right?
    113:51
    And we're going to dance And unfortunately, my neck does look like a vagina.