The Pinball Show Ep 140: Is The Sky Falling In Pinball?

The Pinball Network·video·1h 25m·analyzed·Nov 6, 2023

Analysis

claude-haiku-4-5-20251001 · $0.030

TL;DR

Stern ramps production, drops MAP on discontinued games; market normalizing, not falling.

Summary

The Pinball Show discusses Stern's aggressive production schedule and recent MAP pricing changes for discontinued games, exploring whether the industry is facing contraction or just normalizing after pandemic-era anomalies. Hosts analyze Stern's strategic release calendar through Q4 2024, accessory backlogs, and dealer inventory challenges, concluding that Stern's moves are smart positioning rather than signs of crisis.

Key Claims

Stern is building more games per day than historically typical, with November alone expected to see dealers receive more machines than the entire previous year.
high confidence · Zach Sharpe citing production data, noting November includes 7+ titles shipping: Foo Fighters Pro, Deadpool Pro/Premium, Elvira Blood Red Kiss, Stranger Things Pro/Premium, Godzilla Premium
Stern removed MAP (minimum advertised price) restrictions on discontinued games (Rush Pro/Premium, Led Zeppelin Pro/Premium, TMNT Pro/Premium) and home edition titles (Star Wars Home, Jurassic Park Home), allowing dealers to discount or clearance inventory without penalty.
high confidence · Zach Sharpe reporting recent Stern dealer announcements; describes move as inventory clearance strategy, not industry-wide price reduction
Stern is shipping Elvira Blood Red Kiss special edition games as of Friday the week of the announcement, with remainder shipping early the following week.
high confidence · Zach Sharpe citing shipping updates from Stern
Pinball Brothers previously offered purchase rebates/credits for machines sold during promotional periods (e.g., Alien Day promotion), whereas Stern's current approach does not include such rebates.
high confidence · Zach Sharpe distinguishing Pinball Brothers' past strategy from Stern's current MAP removal approach
James Bond premium is anticipated to be the last game built by Stern in 2023, with no James Bond Pro confirmed for December despite earlier communications suggesting both models.
medium confidence · Zach Sharpe noting uncertainty around James Bond Pro shipment timing; speculates it may be bumped to early January or later
Stern has a new factory with new workers lined up, supporting increased production capacity and the ability to fulfill more games than historically typical.
medium confidence · Zach Sharpe citing resource expansion as evidence against 'sky is falling' narrative
Accessory backlogs persist: Stranger Things UV kits, Rush Toppers, Batman Insider arches, Shaker Motors (3-4 month wait resolved), and Godzilla Toppers expected in December instead of Q1 2024.

Notable Quotes

“November dealers would probably see more games than they have the entirety of the Year listener just think about that for a second”
Zach Sharpe@ 16:33 — Highlights unprecedented production volume, central to 'sky falling' debate
“Stern didn't reduce any price... they're allowing us to lose money”
Zach Sharpe@ 24:02 — Clarifies that MAP removal is inventory clearance strategy, not manufacturer price reduction—important distinction for dealer economics
“it doesn't totally mean the sky is falling either... they have the parts to build games they have a new Factory new workers... more resources to build game”
Zach Sharpe@ 26:00 — Counters 'sky is falling' panic with evidence of operational expansion and supply security
“it's normal to lose money on games that you buy new just like cars and everything else... people just need to get used to normal”
Zach Sharpe@ 29:47 — Frames pandemic-era pricing stability as anomaly; argues market is returning to historical depreciation norms
“if anybody's going to do it right stern pinball does it right”
Zach Sharpe@ 31:17 — Final verdict on Stern's strategic market positioning and responsiveness

Entities

Zach SharpepersonDennis CelentanopersonStern PinballcompanyThe Pinball ShowmediaFlipping Out PinballcompanyJersey Jack Pinballcompany Pinball Brotherscompany Foo Fightersgame

Signals

?
product_launch: Stern shipping record volume of machines in Q4 2023, with November alone expected to exceed entire year-to-date dealer receipts. Seven major titles shipping in November (Foo Fighters Pro, Deadpool Pro/Premium, Elvira Blood Red Kiss, Stranger Things Pro, Stranger Things Premium, Godzilla Premium) plus ancillary inventory.
high · Zach Sharpe citing production updates and dealer communications; explicit mention of 7+ November titles with continued December builds
$
market_signal: Stern removed MAP pricing on discontinued Pro/Premium machines (Rush, Led Zeppelin, TMNT) and home edition titles (Star Wars, Jurassic Park), allowing dealers to discount without contractual penalty. Framed as inventory clearance strategy, not manufacturer price reduction.
high · Official dealer announcements via Stern; Zach Sharpe emphasizing distinction between MAP removal and price cuts; allows dealer loss-selling on stock
?
product_concern: Continued accessory delays: Stranger Things UV kits backordered, Rush Toppers slipping into November/December, Batman Insider arches delayed, Shaker Motors resolved after 3-4 month wait, Godzilla Toppers moved forward from Q1 to December.
high · Zach Sharpe listing specific accessory status updates and revised shipping timelines from Stern
?
supply_chain_signal: Stern has added new factory capacity, hired new workers, and secured expanded parts supply to support increased production rate. Presented as evidence against supply crisis narrative.
medium · Zach Sharpe citing resource expansion as counterargument to 'sky is falling' concern
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Topics

Stern production volume and capacity expansionprimaryMAP pricing changes on discontinued and home edition gamesprimaryQ4 2023 and 2024 release calendar and shipping timelinesprimaryAccessory backlogs and production status (Toppers, UV kits, arches, etc.)secondaryMarket health and 'sky is falling' narrative rebuttalprimaryDealer inventory management and clearance strategysecondarySecondhand market depreciation norms vs. pandemic pricing stabilitysecondaryManufacturer competition and strategic positioning (Stern vs. JJP vs. Pinball Brothers)secondary

Sentiment

mixed(0.65)— Generally positive on Stern's strategic decisions and market positioning, but acknowledges underlying inventory pressures and dealer challenges. Hosts rebut 'sky is falling' narrative while validating concerns about normalized depreciation and production cycles.

Transcript

youtube_auto_sub · $0.000

warning The Following episode contains adult language and screaming goats listener discretion is [Music] advised the pinball network is online launching the pinball show this week on the pinball show all is back to normal as we pour the hottest pinball juice into your parched blood red kissed mouth on episode 140 dinden and I talk Stern production updates for games and accessories reduced pricing on Stern pinball machines upcoming rumored games from Stern and the other pinball companies more Elton John coverage pinball Brothers alien Ripley Edition game and overall business and sales strategies barrels of fun continuing to Trend in the right direction Spooky's bug being like the Easter Bunny on his new screaming streams the holy coveted Back to the Future license being rumored as a future Dutch pinball game an open letter leading to an open email from multimorphic and the [ __ ] is back with pinball market [Music] trends pinball is a game of spill for some it's a passion and a lifestyle it's time for the pinball show it's pinball with personality wait Lou Dennis I feel like I haven't spoke with you in so long this is the PIN show and we're in episode 140 two weeks it's been 2 weeks it's been what 6 weeks since we had good audio here on the pinb show well some people thought you sounded okay I'm fired up I'm ready to go I'm ready to talk some pinball yeah I am too and I got to get my ass to Mars right after this episode records so we probably don't have a lot to do in the intro what Mars where you going no that was my reference to I got another we're we're recording this behind the scenes we're doing it a day early cuz I got a Chief's game on the time we normally record so Zach was so kind to move it up a day but I also normally do my watch live my wristwatch live stream in the morning on Saturday so I've got this all packed in like a little can of stting do you know what I am missing that we're doing this a day early upstairs right now at 6:00 in the morning no it's not 6:00 in the morning but it is quite early I am missing I'm missing the festivities of the mini household because Dennis here in Evansville Indiana It's Beginning to Look a light like Christ it's Den it's Christmas time here at the mini house whole I believe it oh I believe it the tree is going up Charlie Brown it's not even Thanksgiving I don't care it's November that means it's commercials are starting so you know I know I'm losing this this battle to not have Christmas be yearround but I'm I'm not kidding cuz I pay attention to this stuff Lindor I think it was Lindor maybe it was lint chocolate one of those chocolateers started their Christmas ads before Halloween I love it they're deing Mariah Carey as we speak she's making an Christmas must stop stop must stop oh my God it's hooville baby and uh the big the big Christmas question and discussion debate within my household this year is the following turkey or ham we have decid we decided uh this summer you know we we came to together collaborated and we said hey the tre's getting bigger this year okay gone to the days of the 12 foter my friend can we push 15 can we push 18 21 let's get a big ass Christmas tree so we've all agreed on that but the big question is do we go snow on the tree or no snow our family historically dentist has not been a snowfill Christmas tree if you know what I mean it's like the artificial snow that's already imp planted on the Limbs and the and the and the Conifer uh needles okay do you go so we don't know we don't we're going today to pick out the Christmas tree do you put colorful lights on your tree or is it all white you know uh it it changes from year to year just because Nicole likes spending money it just depends it just depends we don't know we want we want to go I can't give you any guidance on that I basically I throw up a teeny little fiber optic tree that I don't even Char basically it's B it's a little more it's a little more full you know it's a little more fleshed out it's had a little bit more time to grow than the Charlie Brown tree and growing up we did what I think I didn't realize because you know I only saw a few Christmas trees growing up we didn't go around to like Christmas parties and stuff so I didn't didn't understand like there were elegant trees we did what would be called a gy tree a gy tree huh so we would take we'd put put up the tree it would be an artificial tree and we would put as like every ornament we had on the tree yeah color colorful lights on the tree and then uh tubs and because we recycled this so we just put them in Old popcorn tents tubs and tubs and tubs of tinel so much so that it was just like a silver sheet you couldn't even see the ornaments yeah yeah we uh that's what we did Growing Up we did the same thing at uh at my household um but my dad was really into tinel so he he had that [ __ ] in the vacuum cleaner for years to come we had be careful we weren't allowed to vacuum the tinsel we were they had the real tree they always had the real tree you went downstairs and you're like ah it smells like a uh gas station bathroom like oh oh yeah no we would go to my paternal grandparents we would usually when we were younger every other year Thanksgiving oras everywhere in Alaska and and no no this was in Arkansas oh okay yeah yeah that that it was the maternal side in Alaska but uh we would go and we would because he had about a 200 Acre Farm we would and most of it was wooded cuz he actually raised chickens so he didn't need most of the Farmland H we would go and we chop down the tree we' go and find a tree on the property yep and we would one that would fit and we would saw it down and we would we would bring it back and so we actually would go get the tree from the land and then decorate it oh Christmas chickens they were regular chickens they did not get festive like green and red feed for Christmas I had to put little ornaments on little chickens this was this was like one of the massive he was it was for Tyson so he was a ma I mean it was a massive Coupe like a thousands of chickens thousands stinky Christmas yeah oh the whole land you knew when you were heading there when you first got on the road and he was the last House at the End of This dirt road cuz you could smell the ammonia from the chickens oh man what a segue we're going to have from Christmas we kind of kind of skip Thanksgiving cuz it's food whatever I'll probably that is adult Halloween I heard someone describe it like that this week we're in the Caribbean most of the time and then we had everybody likes their Halloween and all that you know it's cute I like I like Halloween that's that's fine but Halloween Just marks o we're close to Christmas for me I'm that guy all right yeah I can tell but the holiday before that was your birthday and we said on the pinball show we're going to do a giveaway for your birthday all people didn't say anything I said I said that all people had to do is comment uh on social Med to celebrate Dennis cel's 31st birthday all they have to do is comment their favorite Cal moment from uh historically from what five six years we've been doing I don't even know uh and they they could win a limited edition Cal clone shirt the custom shirts and they did they did very well so I thought instead of giving a shirt away maybe we give a couple away a handful away here here's some of our fans listeners consumers whatever the hell you want to call them here's some of their favorite moments of yours TR yours is it yours truly if I say it no his truly I who knows how to pick a favorite when they're all so Good by Colin Alzheimer kineticist well you got or that sounds like not having one and then just saying that and rule out any of the ones that chose the uh the twip podcast it's not the same show it's totally different it's totally different yeah pton Manny played on the Broncos but he's still a cold I mean come on uh a lot of happy birthdays a little happy birthday D Den my favorite moments are when Dennis cracks up and just totally loses it mine too Frank happy birthday Dennis from Steve Steve says thanks Dennis for keeping the show on track happy birthday Dennis from Shan I love asking Dennis questions winky says Joel engelberth from triple dream pinball podcast and flipping out stream he said also my favorite quote from the pinball show is from Dennis to Z quote quit interrupting with your dumb questions I don't remember which one that was that might have been a fan layout debate that's pretty good I think Joel gets a t-shirt nicely done Joel uh we've got my favorite dentist moment was his breakdown of the Swatch Blanc Pon Blanc pay on his watch channel Kevin get out it's not even the brilliant analysis Kevin I did do a breakdown of the switch and you had it right the first time Blanc Pon Blanc Pon I love anytime that Dennis does Dennis Nordman O I do too Michael swear to me there it is Nicole my wife even said happy birthday Dennis uh Jeff Kenzie said his favorite moment is when you discuss street level versus single level that's t-shirt worthy because Dennis is known for that did I do that on a podcast I guess I have I have done it on this show I always think of the article that was like my first in my opinion really good article I wrote was about the street level series congratulations on the shirt Jeff send me your info Josh rot from loser kid pinball podcast says he likes whenever Dennis Cel does his exasperated S one of Zack min's over-the-top statements that are either said for shock or pure Ridiculousness now look Josh numbers don't lie I fact birthday segment look give me a couple seconds this is celebrating my buddy Drew boy ver from poor man's pinball podcast says my favorite moments any moment the dentist jab Zach many because it's so satisfying [ __ ] you drew you wouldn't have said that to him if he bought games from you he he does no he does buy buy more gam he buy more I love Drew so much because people accuse him of Win Schilling my products now oh really I feel so bad for Drew yeah Drew has a special place in my heart and in my pants Ryan Tanner says happy birthday Dennis thanks for keeping the shill at Bay man these just turned into Zack Jabs Uh Kevin one of our most loyal fans said his favorite moments wearing in his pinball market trends t-shirt to Expo and meeting you Andy yeah okay I I recall this then on the next pinball show he mentions meeting someone Expo who's wearing a pinball Marcus TR t-shirt and him knowing that I was one of the people who likes his most hated segment oh Kevin that's good that's you know what shirt worthy congratulations Kevin get me your info do you remember just like pepp Farm because Craig Bobby says Pepper Farm remembers and I also love that Jeremy remembers cuz he said his favorite moment is every time that he brings up to Zach that I still need to do the rubber band episode for sdt that's true when are you going to do it you made a big deal about branching out a pinball with straight down the middle and then we got a whole lot of not rubber bands which you said you were going to do rubber band collectors we're so busy filming for these manufacturers all the yumminess that you're about to see in the coming months and year how about that okay what else we got singz oh go check out his YouTube he says congratulations Dennis you look great for 29 years old he's 31 Jeff says favor dentist moments when he tried to correct Zack on the definition of a fan layout and second is when he put his foot down for no singing from Zach some people hated that I put my foot down on those they thought it came across too hateful you know what I want to give Jeff a t-shir because he did classify it correctly he he explained it when Dennis tried to correct Zack on the definition of a fan I felt he wrote it in a way that he acknowledged that you didn't accept that you were wrong okay well Jeff let me know which way it was either way and if it was my way then you get a t-shirt you get a shirt and it's and if it's not then you get an R2-D2 topper oh wait no I can't I don't have the authority to give those away yeah Ben Ben your local guy Ben said he enjoys Dennis's little zingers as he throws him out on the show the most but uh also visiting with him at a couple local tournaments as well MH and a couple more here Dennis's best moment is when he does Market Trend says Michael as well as Kevin Higgins saying Remember When he did market trends and had all the polinomial to back it up pooms Don't Lie oh that was back in twip podcast I haven't I haven't touched that in a long time I did an article after uh I did that episode uh and then I don't think I've ever Market trended uh Trend again and then Sean ends it off with my favorite dentist moment is when you know that he does a face palm even though you're listening to an audio podcast Sean you get a t-shirt reach out to me because uh yeah Dennis's poor fa is all red every time we get done recording and speaking of red in the face oh I don't even know if Craig Bobby knows this is coming does he he well he definitely does not cuz none of us told him Craig Bobby's back in a big way but the only way you're going to hear him is behind the pay wall that's right that's right we are ch- Bradlee Ching time Craig bobby gets reprimanded for two reasons not showing his Canadian face uh for weeks yep that's reason one and reason two is he didn't do a top stories he did a bunch of pinball machine reviews so that's going behind the pay wall because that's not what you're paid for oh I love you you got to keep the Bobby guessing he had a little too much fun Expo he was drunk most of the time uh I think he took a shirt off a couple times so you're you're in the Penalty Box you you wore the TPS pin and uh you made us proud but for this top stories with Craig Bobby it's a good one too I assure you it's long it's well it's long it's big it's uncut it's uh it's everything that Craig Bob exclusively of the pinball show patreon subscription membership all you got to do is go to patreon.com theep pinball show sign up today and get all kinds of fun stuff and swag and interactions and and discords and and good stuff do it now do it do it now so that Craig B Bobby can come out of the Penalty Box thank you he's Canadian hockey player you got to let him slap save I want Craig Bobby to have two less teeth in front just just too less up front oh we love you CP ster pinball in the news as they always are these people haven't heard a good old healthy girthy production update lately that's true so I'm going to bring it to him so I'm going to unbox it for him right now just like that wonderful package under the Christmas tree that's marked to denden from Zach don't send me anything this year last couple of week is stering pinball have been a flurry of pinball machines just leaving the factory Foo Fighters Pros they've been coming out Deadpool Pros Deadpool premiums I still can't get over how many pinball machines are being made a day by Stern Pinball we'll talk about that later this week remember just what two weeks ago they announced Elvira's blood red Kiss special edition game Dennis yeah about back then they've already started shipping we had some of them start to ship Friday and the remainder are going to ship this week I think they're doing uh I think they were doing last week was building for over the pond they'll be shipping them early this week for domestic sales so elvir is already on the Move late this week into the week of the 13th is stranger things pro already and then the week of the 20th is going to be stranger things premium and the hits don't stop there the end of November is Godzilla premium into December think about November I estimated that November dealers would probably see more games than they have the entirety of the Year listener just think about that for a second we had Foo Fighter Pros Deadpool Pros Deadpool premiums Alvira blood red kiss Edition stranger things pro stranger things premium Godzilla premium that seven titles as well as any other titles that dealers wanted to purchase that are in stock that's a bunch of pinball machines but it makes sense because as as we're in Q4 right now uh the Christmas time is upon us the giftgiving season and a lot of people purchase pinball machines in November and December that's a lot of pinball machines in December though don't worry we still have Guardians of the Galaxy that one final build Commemorative Edition coming early December mid to late December is still James Bond premium Stern is anticipating James Bond premium being the last game built this year oh so no new game at the end in December like we've often seen well I believe there will be I still believe there will be uh an announcement but not building until January that's what I believe okay well I mean that that could happen sure the other question I had is they had told us James Bond premium and Pro in December but all of a sudden there's there's no uh recognition of James Bond Pro so either they just forgot to tell us that it's also going to be in late December or it gets bumped into early January which I could see or maybe they just bump it out all the way cuz they're like well whatever we'll we'll build it at some point I don't know but I can tell you January 2024 I think we're going to start seeing the next Cornerstone Pro and La ship that month as well as the premiums coming February 2024 Q2 of 2024 include the likes of Foo Fighters Pro Venom Pro Venom premium Q3 of 2024 Godzilla Pro Jurassic Park Foo Fighters Pro and then in Q4 these are all estimates and they probably all will change but Q4 of next year Foo Fighters premium James Bond Pro and premium Deadpool Pro and stranger things pro and premium a possibility if they decide to do another run it will be likely late next year also in 2024 at some point star wars and the Mandalorian discontinued remember Iron Maiden Avengers Infinity Quest Star Wars Home Star Wars comic home and Jurassic Park home accessories updates Dennis people want to know where in the hell their Toppers are and those expression lighting kits good Lord and now of course the bell of the ball where's my UV kit for stranger things deal add that to the to the pile recently shipped from Stern Pinball includes Alvar Toppers still in stock flipping out pinball.com Stern Pinball Alley sign we never got to talk about that remember did you see that big old that big old sign love it love it uh Stern Pinball pop bumper game room light which I think is pretty cool too rush interactive shooter Rod back in stock everywhere Rush expression lighting kits in stock everywhere finally only two years late James Bond art plates Bond accessories in general Batman Insider connected replacement arches people been waiting for those too and Shaker Motors Shaker Motors we had to wait about 3 four months for those to get back in stuck should have gone red trimmer no value your cabinet November November is coming uh and Rush Toppers are what they're supposed to be building November and December is going to Mark stranger things accessories they're saying November but I'm giving them a little December bump too just because I know how they work yeah yeah yeah good play play a little safe December they they claim that they've bumped up uh they were going to make Godzilla Toppers in q1 but they're aiming to do some Godzilla Toppers in December and then q12 24 they claim to be making Iron Maiden Toppers again all right the big story from Stern Pinball and from you know the pinball industry right now in the hobby is is this Stern pimball has I don't I don't remember the last time they've done this if they've ever done this but they have dropped map pricing or the umrp in other words listener they've dropped the floor price that uh that dealers can advertise and sell the following games Russ Pro and premium modelss Leed Zeppelin Pro and premium models Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles Pro and premium models these were these were discontinued games or assumed discontinued sit down Ray I'm sorry I'm so sorry rush rush might come back Rush might come back so they they said what a week or two ago these games they're no longer making them so uh dealers can now sell them for what they want to so that was that was a event because we' not seen that before what does that even mean and fire sale baby well there you go and then what a day or two ago Stern Pinball announces to dealers that the following games also can now be advertised with no minimum pricing Star Wars comic Home Star Wars home Edition and the Jurassic Park Home Edition oh I had not heard about these mhm so these were MSRP for $49.99 and dealers were not allowed to ever advertise nor sell them for under that price now that this pricing structure is lifted for these titles I as a dealer at flipping out pinball can sell these for a dollar if I wanted to I can sell them for whatever wow think of all the money you'd lose so are Stern sending you rebates okay so here's what I wanted to clarify cuz I think some people don't don't don't the reason why I've always complained about the floor especially after a set period of time so overall I like this decision but the whole point is so that you can clear out inventory if you need to uh which may mean selling at a loss potentially just depends it's not like all of a sudden the the dealers are going to be unless there's something special behind the scenes I'm not aware of are actually like going to get some sort of you know purchase buyback rebate deal from you know they already sold you the game so done that actually yeah and I've heard this has happened in some other Industries before but that by and large usually it's a sort of a hey you know you you might have uh taken more stock than you needed uh and what I think is nice here is Stern's kind of recognizing at some point it's healthier though to say you know what we understand you can't just hold on to this forever versus jjp which was you have to hold on to this forever until uh you actually um try and see if they'll blink and then they turn into that little wimpy Sheba enu dog that's all like please don't hurt us and then you can do whatever you want I guess it's okay if you violate all our contracts so yeah a perfect perfect analysis there see that's a perfect it was masiu new analysis yeah perfect rundown so what I wanted to correct people because I I've heard a lot in our hobby saying man Stern just reduced prices Stern just reduced pric uh no Stern didn't reduce [ __ ] they didn't reduce any price I love you Shar no it's no they didn't do anything they're allowing us to lose money I mean reduce prices so no no they're if they reduce the prices then that yeah it would be like Dennis is saying they would send us uh you know credit for every sale under that kind of thing no that's not how this work now that has that has happened in the industry uh with with pinball Brothers I can openly say that whenever they did that uh that sale for alien day I believe it was last year um they said hey for alien day you know this marked time you get I forgot how much it was $300 off each monel blah blah so if we had a completed verified sale we would send them over uh verification documentation of that and they would credit our account for upcoming games or whatever it may be so uh that was a marked difference because we had not seen that I had not seen that in the industry for years um so Stern's not doing that they're just saying hey you can you can sell and I actually think this is a good move as well uh because it is allowing dealers to free up Dennis you we preached this uh months back and got a lot of discussion throughout the industry with our talk about it and that is at what point do you allow dealers to cut their losses without breaking their agreement that they're trying to we trying to uphold because there are still dealers that are going to do you know under under the rug kind of take this for the you know that's going to happen but publicly I think it uh I think it's a good idea because it frees up some space but it's also telling as well I believe oh yeah if this had been two years ago there would never have been a need for this absolutely but it doesn't mean cuz then I hear people the sky is falling the sky is falling like it doesn't totally mean the sky is falling either uh keep in mind that they're building a lot more games than than they were before they have the parts to build games they have a new Factory new workers uh lined up to build they have more resources to build game so there's more games going going out of that factory thus they have to be able to fulfill the products they're making and if dealers are bogged down with inventory how are they going to have money to purchase additional games so there's many ways to assure this type of system that they have in place one of which is uh allowing dealers to red pricing on on some of the discontinued models so I think it works especially but Stern smart is it fair to say Dennis that Stern Pinball they are the main player in the way the market flows right they're they're they dictate the market in many ways I believe uh obviously there there well we don't know their exact size and scale in the market to like the exact percent of market share we know it's extremely high I also though think that perhaps what may be more telling is they've been in this industry for so long that they've been around like back when these games occasionally did have to I mean we we've most of us have read tales about like here's the discounting that was going on for Wheel of Fortune and stuff back in the day because they they couldn't move the units and it's it's so they've gone through enough of uh economic cycle to be like oh yeah we're getting back into this state we have to make sure we position our Distributors to be able to keep accepting new products and that's key because they won't make money if they can't sell their new products to you all yeah absolutely and with with the flurry of they could just slow down new games that would help that market but they can't they've kind of set up a system that's going against that they could there's a lot of things they could reduce pricing sure but some of those decisions like slowing up the line for example uh doesn't give the same uh potential return to their investors yes y absolutely and and Stern Pinball it's like the chicken or egg thing they're where they're at because they in many respects are the smartest they're the most experienced they know what they're doing so instead of being halfhazard instead of being impulsive and saying you know no longer map pricing for any they're smart they're saying hey the stuff that we no longer sell that's discontinued do what you want with it that's fine and they're still upholding the value of their products by maintaining uh the ones that are in production maintaining a ing on that I still think it's a good idea to maintain I know you and I disagreed in some respects to that but I think that's that's smart as well it makes more sense I I'm okay with at least some limit like for a time period I understand and whether you want it to say that time period is as long as it's in production I think that's that's pretty reasonable here's the the thing step yeah I mean the thing that in reality the reality that we all truly know even if we don't think about it we know it subconsciously these games that you've even named like lead Zeppelin tmn and rush they are not of equal value lead Zeppelin wor is worth less than those other games it just is because that's what the market dictates I don't dis on the secondhand Market I don't disagree and so Stern recognizing that they don't you know ultimately once they've made their sales especially once they're not making them anymore what do they care what you sell the game for I don't know why jjp was so in again I I get that's been more the standard with all the other stuff basically just have this minimum pricing um you know a floor that you couldn't sell under I've always felt to me especially with jjp as expensive as their games are that they have almost desperately tried to prop up the value of the game so people don't feel like a sucker buying them new but the bottom line is it's normal to lose money on games that you buy new just like cars and everything else and so people just need to get used to especially those of you who are new who got in during the pandemic that was not normal get used to normal you're not supposed to be able to sell a game if you buy a rush Pro you're not supposed to be able to sell it for the same amount you bought it for that's silly mhm yeah and Stern is really smart and intelligent when it comes to uh how they're positioning new products right um they could in the future they could lower price here they could reduce the because the LA Market kind of helps hold that uh collectibility the pricing right right the LA Market operates differently than Standard Market forces because of the the artificially constrained Supply so you could see if overall sales are going down you could see them pull back on Le numbers just to uphold that highest model uphold the value of that and then you'll see a kind of a a static movement like you'll see it uh it'll it'll settle a little bit and I think they should I think they should consider reducing the number of Le's I think they they could consider I wouldn't consider it on their next one I certainly wouldn't I wouldn't I I wouldn't even change pric they're not going to sell out of Dungeons and Dragons we'll see but jjp's a whole another uh whole another story but the bottom line is that um as the market changes so do consumer buying patterns and so do manufacturer decision- making and if anybody's going to do it right staring pinball does it right so does that mean with discontinued Avengers and Iron Maiden that at some point those are the next ones on The Chopping block to get the reduced map yeah I bet they do this for everything that goes out of production moving forward does that also mean that they're not going to do another home edition I don't think the home editions ever really found the market that they were hoping to find they're just they're too expensive for what they're targeting I'm with George Gomez there's something there there's certainly something there but it's just conceptually the pieces the pieces I think are right the problem is that you're so close to a Stern Pro in price at at that stage yeah especially and you have to consider like what segment of the market is like they're going to insist they're only going to buy new but they can't get themselves up to the stern Pro pricing uh and so they're going to go and and get a home addition and still a complex machine it's still it in ways less accessible than the commercial with the lockdown bar and with the with the back glass com it it's kind of a mess but uh but buy them now flipping out so rumored games Stern the next rumored game is Jaws Keith L1 that's the rumor um we'll see if that happens if it does then uh I think everything's going to be fine we've heard Dungeons and Dragons as a room a cast magic Missile how do you think a Dungeons and Dragons would do not great yeah well my son would like it he's a big D and D guy it's F I mean I like D and D but I just you know there was a DND d game oh yeah yeah I I remember I remember was that a b who did that it probably an indis Flex ramps like hard body did so there a featured indis game John Wick is a rumor what about John Wick yeah I we've talked about how maybe that one's a little past its prime people think John Wick is like one of the greatest themes ever look it's a good theme but it's no they just people just like piano Reeves a lot no Harry Potter all right how about Jersey Jack pin neither is legacy of hardart the new Elton John that's out people still up and down with this game um it's so hard to get a better uh look at this game when they're not shipping yet it's hard to get it because the only opinions are those that were at Chicago Expo I hope to see these rolling out within two weeks here uh at least starting to roll out maybe the end of the month I don't know but they had a new gameplay video released by Jersey Jack pinball a sexy little production piece there too I give credit to uh it's probably Ken cwell that did that uh that was really really well done I'm going to actually learned some techniques and editing I'm going to use those that was nice so go watch that um did that video does gameplay videos help drum up sales I think they could I think they could hurt we've streams that hurt products so it could go either way this one in particular I don't think hurt at all I think if anything is was because they didn't have feature at because they didn't have initial gameplay um because they're not shipping yet every little bit helps because people just don't know enough about this game yet yeah based off the feedback from Expo uh I assume the video will probably help since I didn't really hear complaints about I only really heard praise actually about how the game played mhm and so given that I think in their instance it's not one of those scenarios where you see it's like like the spooky scenario where it's like here's here's uh Halloween it's like don't show gameplay just sell it off of theme because gameplay will only hurt you this isn't coming in hot like Halloween did sure you're right it's not coming in like a rocket man it's coming in like a tiny dancer it's coming in like a I was going to try I not even going to touch that nicely done what about their upcoming rumored games because I don't know about you but a lot of people are like all right what do they got coming up next their rumored games actually are really strong they're very strong which is good because I feel like we've just gotten through the trilogy of not strong uh themes out of them we've heard the the likes of Harry Potter that would be huge The Matrix well that'd be big too Top Gun or Maverick wow all of those are strong hey jjp if you got one of these celebrate if you've got two of them ah take a breath I think you're going to be okay if you have all three of these holy [ __ ] we have a different company here unless they're lacking features and multiball heavy then we're in trouble again yeah I would I would uh I would love either any of those themes I would love it there's a couple more that I can't discuss that uh people aren't hinting on there but uh man I hope those three are true what about pinball Brothers last time we were we were having you forgot about yeah that was the audio that I had during the last episode uh no you're right alien Ripley Edition was announced right before Chicago pinball Expo this is your favorite movie or one of your favorite movies one of them yeah yeah so uh they they come out with this Ripley Edition they're limiting the Run starting mid November they're going to start shipping these things it's not a limited model per se but they're making so many November December um I don't know if they're moving on to something else and then you might see them run it again in the future but the the Staggering thing to me Dennis is the price on this this I I don't know what to make of this move by pinball brothers because the pricing of this is $79.95 plus tax and shipping but at $79.95 that undercuts their lowest model The Standard Version by $11,000 not to mention their limited version um that's over 10 I believe 7995 that's yeah that's a incredible deal it's well I mean pinball Brothers remember the price reduction they did on Queen is as well they are of all the companies they're the only one I've seen that actually seems to be reading the market and then saying you know what we we cannot and maybe it's because they're so small but I think that what their actions are saying is we cannot sustain at our pandemic pricing that we selected we are going to scale it back and they have decided to go ahead and eat whatever blowback there would be about those that bought at the higher pricing sure because they they need to make the sales and they realize they they cannot position them M themselves at the price tier that they were in not anymore yeah they they they are reactive their their thumb is to the market in a lot of ways my only concern would be that this stays at this level of reactivity uh because they need they need to just make sure that their quick decisions aren't thus uh putting the rest of the train uh in a bad spot to keep up my bigger concern isn't actually the pricing it's that they went back to the alien well okay so I'm concerned that they aren't in a position to go with a new title which would normally be the strategy when you need to start raising funds and I think it's a bigger sign of weakness to go back and start milking your old title because I think this suggests Queen is not doing what they thought it would do and they're like well let's use the Old Highway alien design cuz people actually like that and let's finally put in what people really wanted and put it at a very attractive price compared to what we were selling for and then let's make all these parts and stuff available so people can upgrade just it just seems like maybe they're cash strapped well and if but uh financially and from a business perspective if their next product is not quite ready yet instead of jumping the gun and announcing that collecting sales and then delay delaying the productivity on that I think this is a smart move they're saying oh yeah no this I think this work I think this works better than a lot of other choices that a company might have made sure my my when I was talking about the concern it's going of twofold here one being they just need to make sure that like doing this is fine but if they have a dealers with a lot of SVS in stock who in the hell's going to want SV now if they have a lot of dealers with LVS in stock I can still see the sale of those uh but still that's $3,000 difference and you get some upgrades here in the in the Lesser model gu it's time for permission to go below floor just guy you got to be careful there didn't want to leave the rest of the train behind and survival has to come above the safety of the train and a lot of this stuff was announced pending still licens or approval I don't I don't know how much I like that you know um so just that's my only that's my only cautious thing there's a lot of things that pinball Brothers is doing that is leading the industry from a distribution standpoint um but we just got to watch it we don't want to get sloppy they do have on this new Ripley Edition audio and video assets of Sigourney Weaver's R everybody was like oh it's on the transl of the backglass they were like they don't have her likeness they just they just have the side of her face or something like no they have I've seen the audio I've seen the video assets they're good you get get away from her [ __ ] you get all that stuff so uh so it's these people are dead Burke don't you realize what you've done here it's all in there I don't know if they go aliens 3 but yeah they they certainly have alien and aliens and I also liked the fact that the new code for this game is also going to be made available for free to those SV and LV owners so that was a good move and then even further a good move all the Ripley Edition parts and differences so like they're working with uh partnership with the art of pimble updating the the screen surround to be a nice molded thing painted uh the xenomorph gets a new paint job that comes on the Ripley Edition an apron decal that's new and neat um they're even selling a leor making a Topper to sell as an accessory for this game but I like that the stuff that comes on the riplay Edition can also be purchased by the the other owners of the SV and LV games including they even priced us out cabinet decals and translate so nobody can complain if they're like oh I like the artwork on the Ripley this is [ __ ] well just it's it's uh pretty pretty affordable for the cabinet decals now you get to put them on but they're still selling all of that stuff even though the the screen surrounding apron all that stuff all of that stuff topper has been selling crazy that thing came out at 13.95 they're building it in q1 I believe those things are selling fantastic do you see the topper for that I did not yeah it's pretty nicely done I like it now what are the rumored upcoming games and sales-wise Ripley Edition is selling better than I thought it would I thought everybody was satiated by you know aliens if they wanted one they had one kind of like alviva uh blood bread kiss I figured you know sales would be eh whatever no sales sales of alvir continue to do uh way better than I have ever expected people love them some alira same here with Ripley Edition we're still getting sales for those and I thought I I I thought we'd sell it maybe a handful but no they're doing very well but I think it's at $79.95 it's it just steel of a deal yeah I the pricing is definitely helping I I overall I think it's the right move for their company to have done it this way and I forgot to even mention pinball Brothers before was kind of like um some of the other overseas companies where you would have to pay this Freight duties and all this stuff it ended up being you know4 to $1,800 to get a game over here whether it's from haggus or Dutch P whatever it is um they've actually set up some kind of some kind of shop some kind of building some kind of factory here in the US and uh no longer I don't think we have to deal with that so when customers are buying Ripley Edition they're just paying the shipping from the US to their place so um so that helps as well now they're rumored games for Pb include Twilight Zone I've heard Twilight Zone remake um or just some WPC remake working with planetary pinball I've heard um I think it was from pinball Paris person uh a famous European band is what their next game's going to be in q1 I don't even know what that would be famous European it depend I mean you could say The Beetles yeah beetles what's the most famous European band that hasn't had a pinball machine yet you two maybe yeah maybe I guess you too gorillas would count I'm just saying all right they go from alien queen to gorillas all right maybe Ramstein d d okay let's have barrels of fun now barrels of fun out of Houston creating the Labyrinth they continue to slowly ship those building up their production capabilities they hope to have a clear schedule of game designations in the coming weeks in other words uh for those of you who have pre-ordered and want to know where you fall in the line uh when am I going to get my game did I buy direct did I buy through a dealer which one was better which one what they are they're figuring that all out right now so that's good but what it said when I ordered direct it was number 705 that means I'm not no it doesn't really doesn't mean [ __ ] means nothing they're going through it I hope they do like they do spooky pinball where spooky pinball when we buy a game they or when we game is announced as a dealer we buy an allotment of games they tell us okay out of your 20 games out of your 200 games you're going to get five here you're going to get 10 here here's your numbers we're going to build them in order and it it's easier to uh organize now I know barrels of fun was big on order early and you get in the queue early which is different than spooky pinball so I'm glad we got in early but for like the dealers that didn't get in as one of the initial deal I don't know what any of this means I don't know how they're putting their direct sales I do know that their direct sales they gave themselves an allotment they sold out of of those so now it's just buying labyrinths through their dealers mhm how do you feel about that move I was mixed on that if I'm them limiting your if you're going to sell direct why limit it well I think it's weird to sell direct and do a distributor Network I to me it's one or the other you're here I I'm with you but uh if I'm them I don't it was I think it's a good PR move it's a good move to your distribution Network so it makes a lot of people happy but maybe compromises your own ability to make sales and grow as well I don't I don't know I mean given how new they are I'm not really going to judge them on the decision too much because I think they're just trying to sort it out with the despite all their experience some of this side of it this particular side of the business is probably new to all of the names I heard that were involved so they're probably still trying to feel through it they limited it to 150 units I believe for themselves to sell direct uh so they've blown through that where they you they're filled um kind of reminds me of when you know Stern likes to do those little like we'll have a few of these on the website and sell sort of thing yep so uh I love it as a dealer thank you barrels of fun that makes me happy um and they don't they they've emphasized like if they don't sell 1100 they don't sell 1100 they're fine moving on they they're not going to come back to the well just sell what they sell and they'll be good I think estimations are I think estimations are like 800 to a th000 that they've probably sold so even at 800 that's a lot of games to build production wise I think they're building six to 10 games a week right now they plan to ramp that up in by January they'd like to get to about 10 games a day uh whether it's q1 or whatnot but they they've got to do something they have two more licensed games in the works that's the word okay that's the the word with a a rumored upcoming game everybody's talking about this last week everybody's saying their next upcoming game is The Fifth Element that's a pretty good that would be a pretty good license that's a pretty good license I think if anything that may be even a little stronger than Labyrinth I mean I would be more interested in Fifth Element I remember when it came out it would started getting built as like gen X's uh Star Wars it never turned into that but it was still a good movie Corbin Dallas she know it's a multi pass and if you want to check out the Labyrinth all you got to do is go to the flipping out pinball stream Joel engleberth has streamed twice now some wonderful examples of this game direct audio direct video captures hell last week he had on uh the rules Creator Bowen Kens on the show right there live in video form helping them along the way getting I didn't get to catch it did uh did Joel explain the rules to Bowen cuz CU I hear that's what he does now that's so good so good I love it I love it [ __ ] Joel's a rock star spooky pinball I've got to give a shout out to bug he's created this screaming stream and it's going very well people are loving this um I think you and I have talked about why don't manufacturers do this more they you know whether it's weekly or monthly do a stream yeah answer I it's a good idea yeah bugs like an Easter Bunny hiding little little eggs here and there he also sets some traps he sets a little rotten eggs here and there for people he knows what he's doing sneaky little booger they're rumored upcoming games I I can't pinpoint there's so many Evil Dead I've heard Monty Python's Holy Grail I've heard I've heard Looney Tunes I've heard Texas Chainsaw masacre I've heard Friday the 13th I think basically anything that's horror related is kind of in the mix yeah which it's it's a lot especially when it IT ranges like when you're talking like Scooby-Doo sort of kid spooky all the way up to exactly you know hardcore Texas Chainsaw style Terror I mean that's a that's a broad spectrum you know what I'll start a rumor right now I heard there's Rumblings that in the future they're going to do Saul how about that I just added that to my list Saul I would not play a game you hear me nap put it in the books now Goosebumps the kids book series super popular um putting it down RL Stein I heard a little r Corner bumps both would be pretty good uh Dutch pinball speaking of rumors oh they got the Mariah Cary of rumors Man All I Want for Christmas Is Back to the Future they're rumored upcoming G is Back to the Future I cannot I cannot believe this I can it would have to be like a zero asset even the clock tower is a potato even the clock tower strikes Spud that's right and it gets electrocute and turns into Mash taters all over the courtyard we've got to get we've got to get the Del the delator T up to 88 taters an hour I mean come on come on come on guys don't you make like a yam and get out of here yeah so stupid oh Dutch pinball f is true get to the final dance where everyone just does the mashed potato your kids are gonna kids love enjoy this french fry yeah oh please Dutch if this is true don't [ __ ] this up please this is my I want them to have it I want them to have iton too oh Manon no goonies never say fry that's the that's the right one damn hey you fries man don't potato face him just don't I would take current Michael J fo got to get the treasure of hash brown Willie what if they got back to the future but like current aged Michael J fox and Christopher Lloyd I would take that people I was to say will take it people don't care oh man Dutch funny please just please I'm amazed they're still around still just like selling big Labowski it's fascinating to me to be able to survive on one game that long I heard I heard a twiy award-winning podcaster say that Barry uh the designer of the big Labowski is the greatest pinball designer of all time with one designed pinball machine that is some High Praise that is I mean it's kind of interesting it's like a you know if you were if you were to do one thing like let's say Keith elwin came out and did Godzilla as his first game and then he's just kind of like yeah peace out and he just quit yeah be like well I I want to end on a high note now here's the thing being the Back to the Future nut job that I am I'm not mad that Dutch pinball if they have this I'm not mad because the big Labowski is damn awesome now the best designed game of all [ __ ] off do you have right like the big leowski is nothing more pretty basic uh design there it's I mean the the layout it's it's like five shots yeah I mean because with engineering mechs are fantastic it's I mean it's not bad I I would say to me it's sort of what I think of a quintessential 90s Williams yeah it's a that's that's the vibe I get and not just from the code from the layout too and I think if that's what you're into uh you'll probably really enjoy big glowski I am I am really into a lot of that Mech stuff integration stuff and and big leous got it in Spades so if it is back to the future if we can get some strong Snappy flippers and they last throughout hours I am I'm a buyer and potentially a seller potato and CH a seller I've never sold a potato well actually I have I just won't name what game it was s sorry Cosmic Carnival let's move on to American Pimp are they still oh I heard they were uh very present at Expo with all their cast of actors for Galactic tank force I heard did they get game of the Expo or they got like Booth of the show or something I don't know they they patted themselves on the back about something but I was a little at first I thought it was Game of the show and then I thought maybe it was Booth of the show and then I was I wish I would have stopped by I wanted to meet some of the cast I did I thought Clementine was good and moon raker or Moon Stormer yeah I wish I would have said hello but they had a pretty cool Booth a lot of inflatable stuff so but uh yeah they're rumored next game or see gtfs I guess still being actually I think houdin are being built right now I for the life of me um man maybe next week we're getting close on time maybe next week we'll talk about uh the American pinball shenanigans that uh distribution has to deal with maybe next week the rumored game upcoming game people are mumbling is cuphead the the video game series cuphead oh that's that's interesting that's a that's a deep dive you played cuphead yes I think cuphead may be one of the most beautiful games I won't even say video game but games ever created there's a whole uh fairly difficult development cycle there a we won't talk about it here but it's fascinating story about how they made cuphead because it was very challenging for them and that game is extremely hard I heard which I like that I like the thoughts of that well it's basically just a bunch of Boss rushes by and large but and I've I've gotten through the first world and that's about it pretty platform know what it's like a plat for just like a 2d well for the most part people think it is and it's got a few parts like that but it mostly it's you just fighting basically it's we we call it the format's called Boss Rush where it's like getting to a boss fight in a 2d or shoot them up or whatever except you just go and fight another boss and then another that's what it basically is and you have to learn the patterns and stuff there are a few stages that are platforming but it's not the game strength the game strength is going to you see that like old school Disney Animation style bosses and uh you know it's very beautiful game uh and in true Boss Rush fashion it's very hard because kind of like dark souls or whatever you have to learn the patterns and stuff and it Tak trials and errors to get yeah yeah yeah you just because when you get to a new phase of the fight all of a sudden you're you're basically killed by something you didn't know to expect and then it's like you learn and you just you go right back no games piss people off more than that yeah I mean it's it appeals to a certain type of of individual but I don't know anyone who's finished cup head wow so I mean there are people I just don't personally know any I the game this seems almost like a theme that looking at American pinball that they would have picked simply because they love the art and they imagined how beautiful it would be on the display and stuff I don't know how well it moves units in the pinball Community yeah you got Ryan McQuaid uh that did Sonic's spinball as a home brew and they couldn't secure that license so maybe they're like well this is the next thing we could get video game wise Ryan I just yeah I mean I we know it but I worry that a lot of people I I actually uh somewhat uh follow somewhat I don't always keep up on it but I caught up on the American pinball thread on pinside and there were a lot of people there that just didn't know what cup head was which kind of surprised me but I've been in the Video Game World a long time and if you're not you're not going to know cuphead I agree I I don't think it's a great title for for pinball it now it could sell Gang Busters the game could be awesome I I like it because I think that it's uh it's beautiful I love the style I love all of that um I just don't think the art we're not in the phase where art is enough to sell the game theme is what sells the game or else gtf would have done better yeah gtf Arts great so the same with Elon John you know like franie franie worked on both those projects and yeah the Art's great the the games do not have an art problem that is not the issue and if they use Ryan McQuaid's layout for spinball that was an easy shooter so that does not go with cuphead who's rumored to have Sonic if not them maybe next episode okay maybe Craig Bobby mentions it behind the pay wall yeah check it out so cuphead okay that that's such an American pinball thing to do it to tease Masters of the Universe in your in your Expo tour and come out with cuphead yeah I was it Jack rer over there like what is going on watch it come out cuphead to that's right return to the saucer Chicago gaming company oh I heard great news I heard about the production Pulp Fiction well just hold hold the phone no my phone is a cell phone and I don't want to hold it right now would you let another man massage your woman's feet look so here's here's what happened I think I don't have any confirmation of this but I think they just don't like dealers I think they thought you know what as if dealers aren't bothered Enough by emails of when their damn game's coming they're going to announce that they rolled one off the line to make all of the backordered customers think that they're now in production so they would flood their dealers with questions oh I saw one saw somebody get one that kind of thing that's just my perception because they're not building this game yet I think they rolled one off the line so that they could meet their estimated Q3 production timeline but we're in Q4 well close enough okay and you know we still have Cactus King and Le's that need fulfilled SE pluses that but the rumor was they were going to build them both in tandem I I don't I don't know what's going on there I can also say that I did send an email last week for an update just for my business and I have yet to get a response I I don't I don't get it I don't know no clue no clue which is very frustrating the rumored upcoming game I don't know I don't even I have no clue multimorphic uh Jerry's still not a fan of me uh did you see this open letter on pin yes yes I was actually getting sent some uh some quotes from the thread back before the uh I guess the latest announcement stuff but wow that thread went all over the place I yeah I found out about it because I was tagged and I was brought up in it somehow some way I H why am I synonymous with multimorphic now like am I branded to this brand this not something I'm asking for I you know I don't know I mean I understood the desire by some to want to divert from the topic that thead was about yeah absolutely so someone I I don't know the just of it or I don't know all of the details but somebody started a thread on pinside it was an open letter uh talking about their experience of receiving the game working on the problems the numerous problems they had uh giving their I I I felt pretty thorough uh rundown of their experiences thus far with the platform with the company Etc was that Fair yeah they were pretty thorough they were and normally I let me go ahead and just admit I'm not a fan of open letters because I think you get things better done privately but they did include documentation in their imagery that they had been in communication privately with with the company for a long time before they had gotten to this point yeah so that was and then like you do on forums you get back and forth from people you know hey I have the same experience you're exactly right I'm I'm glad somebody expressed it that way and then other people saying go to hell that's not what happened you're just trying to bring down the company like Zach Manny and then back and forth back that's what threads do it was interesting to me just because it uh it was a hot little thread and then somebody brought me up saying that I lost distribution of Flipping Out pinball because of shady the the phrase like shady business practice some something like that and that's what I'm like okay like dark yeah you know and and some of those threads people oh Zach chill this stuff here Zach you know Zach Z whatever I get that daily that's fine but then you bring up my business and if it's something that's not true that I'm like well [ __ ] I can't just I got to say something so I just hopped in there was like hey could you you know kind of explain what you mean by Shady business pracs because this is news to me too do it here publicly I don't care because I didn't do anything wrong and they said well I don't know the details but I know it's Shady well okay so I said look Jerry and I don't maybe see eyee to eye sometimes but even Jerry would tell you that that's not why I lost distribution rights to multimorphic five years ago when I first got in the industry uh it was because I wasn't inventorying games um I was new I didn't I didn't have a lot of money to inventory stuff so I didn't want to buy extra P3 games that were going to sit because they weren't selling this is a Time Dennis where it was the U Lexi light speed was out and that was it rocks or Barnyard um but Cosmic cart racing was just coming out so I wasn't established like some of these dealers so I couldn't I couldn't afford to inventory games and uh and so that was it I mean Jerry and I just he was like well why are you a dealer if you're not going to take him to shows or not inventorying games and I said well I I agree uh there Jerry but your other dealers are doing the same so why are you why am I being treated different so it's just a a business disagreement uh that led to us not it wasn't anything shady so I thought that was fine and then Jerry came in and said oh no this guy was right and I'm like wait what [ __ ] he was right all right [ __ ] here we go like people just leave me alone [ __ ] so I said okay Jerry please express to everybody publicly in this forum then what what Shady business practices I I uh practiced and uh thankfully he came back and told everybody what such shade I I one on ethics I did and that was he came to a Atlanta show our first show I think that we'd ever had a booth again within three months of me and Nicole owning the business we had no clue what we were doing within three months so we set up at Atlanta show and he came had an agreement he would come we you know we'd have the P3 out there and in the booth and everything and he said there were times that I was not in that booth and he was responsible for selling the product on his own so that was the Shady business I said you know what Jerry you are you're right there thank God that's out there so that was the that was the unethical dilemma that so that's what I know about U the open letter that wasn't the part I found very interesting no no offense to you and your bus reputation prer not to even been brought up I thought because I never like worked on one of these and I've always when people have told me about them I've known a lot of people have owned the games and they've they've sung their praises and uh in a way where they it's it's it's always been weird to me because it's like there aren't any flaws with it like it's it's it's as a kid would say super sus like like the big the only complaint I would get out I remember one person one time I was like is there really like absolutely nothing you would say you should be done differently about this and the one thing I got was well I wish it was lighter weight and I was like wow I mean it's just it's like like uh it's just like this it's just it's too good to be I work too damn hard that's like I'm just thinking like Stern and jjp and every I'm like everything has some you know there's always compromise I'm just amazed and so again I don't but I hadn't handled like I've played these games at shows some I like and some I don't but I've never like looked under the hood so to speak and so it was the discussion about how much was being print 3D printed fdm 3D printed now I'm not a 3D printing EXP expert but like or came in and was explaining the different types and I actually started looking up types about 3D print cuz I like I've got like my brother-in-law is big into 3D print like he's interested in that stuff it's not I don't do that in a in a hobbying thing but I'm just going and people are showing photos of all this stuff and like all these fail points because you're like using hobbyist printers that weren't designed for production grade high wear areas and stuff and it's just like this is the and again I don't follow all the multimorphic threads so I'm like to me that was just a shock cuz I I that was the first I'd ever heard of it and it there's got to be more people that were aware and and knew that these these aspects weren't doing well and not that anyone has an obligation to tell it to me because again I wasn't really in the market to buy one of these anyway but that was just really interesting to me because the company's been around so long that they were I I could almost see it like I would have the way it was described and again I'm not a 3D printing expert was like maybe you'd prototype with that approach but like putting flipper mix and stuffs in with the you know the 3D printer you got on sale at Circuit City maybe that's not the strategy that you employ I don't know that they were actually purchased on see like year one you know back in the day when 3D printing was uh it was just getting off the ground it's I mean you know but it's but I you know but we see 3D printing show up a lot in pinball so I also kind of was like okay I I get that as well though we usually see it for more like decorative things hey you know like mods and stuff that company pitches The Innovation bringing the Innovation that other companies just fail and or unable to do so that's that's Innovation is it not uh I mean I could see I mean I could see the argument I could see the argument but anyway it was it was just that was really interesting because the thread actually had again this thread went in all sorts of directions and that was one of those directions where there was a lot of discussion about that but I and I didn't see a lot of feedback not that I expected official feedback but I didn't see a lot of feedback that to me was really satisfying in the explanation about why the decision was made other than I think everyone again who knew about 3D printing was like well this is an this is a cheap decision like this is the like if you want to do things affordable this is like the lowest cost way you could do it and we know that uh didn't spooky early on they they were criticized for doing 3D printing Parts but then you didn't hear anybody spu the only one that was just getting flamed for that in the past I you know I it's I I I'm too ignorant of 3D printing and knowing who did what with what and I remember like with America's most haunted spooky again it was like the toys they just like looked like really like low low effort 3D print jobs on the toys and some of those toys I think could get hit by the ball and would break and stuff like that America's most haunted ghost alone yeah poor americ haunted anyway so you wouldn't want you wouldn't want to game with this level of hobbyist 3D printing in it uh I guess the answer would be no based off of what little I've been able to learn since then like I've read about like I don't want to say no to 3D printing because I did read about 3D printing approaches that do seem to offer robot break you can make your own Parts at home who would only if you only if you have the designs oh man and I I think you can I think like multimorphic will will share those but I don't think they're readily again from the thread it sound like you could just go well it didn't sound like you could just go to the website and download them you have to request them is what it sounded like which isn't like the worst thing in the world but when do you I I would rather have injected injected molded but I'm oldfashioned like that when do you think we'll get a fully 3D printed pinball machine oh gosh full size yeah well the problem is getting people to accept the plastic Playfield don't they do resin 3D print you could do I mean plastic oh there's probably so there's probably there's probably a way to 3D print wood that I just again it's not I'm just not into that like that's not a hobby of mine I'm just not into it we should have your what was it you said brother-in-law yeah I think he's got or at least he's written to me like he's emailed me when there like 3D printers on sale and stuff before and things like that I think I know he has one cuz uh was a a few years ago printing uh 3D printing can be great for all sorts of of of stuff like like uh think um especially like covers and stuff for like it's a it's a good option for a lot of pinball stuff I but like things tied to the flipper mechs and stuff I guess not again based off of the what I'm going to I'm assuming our expert I didn't see anyone really come I saw some people debating like well you could do this versus that you know everyone have their disagreements but by and large it wasn't seen as a strong approach but and I guess um I guess multimorphic agrees because they issued a uh a letter I guess to an email update I guess is the proper way led to an open email yeah I guess they do those regularly to their to their customers and stuff uh but someone had dropped it in the thread so that's how I was I was aware of it where they had noted that they were not uh they were pausing new product development so the second multimorphic game kit that they were planning to release in 2023 is not coming out in 2023 because they are going to be focusing on uh making improvements yeah if that wasn't just a coincidence they probably had it scheduled to release around the same time anyway I'm eager to get my hands on Final resistance more I want to play that game I don't want to own it don't want to buy it don't want to buy the system make that clear and that module came up in that thread about having made like like Scott's design was diff like it didn't do something like I don't think he had the the Reliance on the what were the other thing the servos or something came up in the thread uh again I don't I don't do like RC cars and stuff so I just didn't understand like necessar apparently another high fail P like that is a disposable part at the end of the day uh multimorphic has been around for quite some time the P3 platform has been around for quite some time they have brought Innovations to the industry uh first in a lot of ways they've brought so much cool stuff that we've not seen before uh but I I don't think that their sales are strong in the past currently or will be in the future because they do they are stuck with one platform that at this point in my own opinion uh feels very very dated more so than pretty much all the other manufacturers Products that come out it just feels like feels like an old an old system um it looks old it just feels it's old it's just old that's all too old to go in my collection uh but these people may be old but they're beautiful they're the screaming goat club members of the pinball show Dennis yay thank you for the support about thank you to uh to the bobcat yeah Rodney Rodney we're in a Hell where you at Expo come on oh shoot that [ __ ] what about jablonsky yeah Bumblebee tuna baby I want J jablonsky I know you're busy man you need to come hang out with us on the monthly hangout sessions the pinball show robbed it the kineticist himself with his media mixer yes Colin you're a baby daddy Colin um that was so creepy with what you were talking about with that baby I want the baby that's so cute the baby I've tried talking to colen to getting the baby she's uh she wants one but no I think our time is come and gone we're looking forward to grandbabies in like 10 years maybe we'll see yeah maybe it's crazy the Falcon Kaka Frankie Frank's on a roll you should see his collection holy moly mhm the Shaker motor Dave oh his collection's growing too congrats on that recent game that's shipping this week the fox what does the fox say he says bye bye bye bye bye bye Joe thank you for the love oh and then newcomer to her hangout this month Charlie Charlie the yeah Charlie made it he came and hung out and we always have the likes of the dude the dude Sir William yeah well you know that's just like uh your opinion man he he came hung out he's got I think the dude's got an Elton on the way so we were discussing that and he was like well I'm looking forward to it so he's got a couple weeks unless he went CE he might have went CE he's got a couple months but the dude thank you for all your dudeness and for those of you who want to join the screaming goat Club come with it all you got to do is go to the patreon club membership page patreon.com slthe pinball show $10 membership sign up get access to our private Discord channel it's privati is there's a couple [ __ ] in there that share everything uh but other than that it's fun we've got the Nordman level $25 get some swag get some perks The Hangout they get access to hangout get the hangout you get to pick a topic I think we're airing our topic and our uh the show oh yeah the the the pay wall polo for all of those screaming club members as well as appearing on the show and a private Channel but just Dennis and I those people are so informed they just come to us and say you know what's the what's the truth behind this what's the is this real what's this and we feeds them potatoes don't we yes n that look like Michael J fox all right last time I I flooded with emails people saying dude you can't get rid of it you can't put it behind the pay wall it's bigger than you Zach it's bigger than the pinball show it's it has now surpassed flipping out pinball straight down the middle and any rubber band episode you may or may not do in the future no one has said any of that it is simply the industry consuming black hole that is pinball market trends my voice is back woohoo the B can't attack no Turing up this week D is Labyrinth barrels of fun [ __ ] fun having [ __ ] fun yet laby G is so bad but everything else is so good oh yes Mah you got cabus you've got all kinds of fun and Labyrinth the damn thing is still selling it's out selling every other manufactur game for us right now people can't get enough of Ludo scared you got Hogle pissing in a pond you got fairies that bite you you've got the Cod piece the beauty that is the Bulge of David Boe hell yes that's a Battle of the Bulge that I'd want to compete in wonder if I don't know why I thought of Ryan C when I thought of David Bowie's bulge is Ryan C still out there anywhere right now I've got hands over my eyes like a visor Ryan are you out there anywhere we should have Ryan on is Ryan C still a thing I don't know yeah he I mean I he gets referenced fin round from time to time I don't know why Ryan I'm sorry I don't know why I thought the Bulge I thought also training up this week is alvira's blood red kiss now I'm really thinking of rany but yeah alvar's blood red kiss which uh I is a is a no no for me to uh ever doubt Stern Pinball I was like we really need one of these again guys we just said all right I'll sell it and uh sell it I have everybody's wanting the elvir blood red kiss Edition they're shipping now so when they they announce something they ship it to you and it's sexy and it's beautiful did you like the black and white rendition of this I I thought it might be the best it's my favorite yeah it's my favorite design of it with glitter it makes sense it makes sense yeah it really works well damn you know what I I just decided right now as I was saying this it's pinball Market trans I think I'm going to open one of those I really maybe no you said last time Nicole would be mad so don't do it I'm going to It's Beginning to Look a lot like blood kiss I think I'm going to open up an elvirus stay tuned videos coming soon all training up this week I don't have to open this cuz it's already in my collection of stranger things [ __ ] [ __ ] stranger things oh my God we sold out of our premium allotment I was sad maybe we'll get some extras I don't know but who would have thought like three years after they could still sell hundreds upon hundreds of stranger things what is the world coming to H we got Venom sitting and stranger things just blowing off the line where's my UV kit I'm going to trm that [ __ ] down because I can't wait for that stranger things is a certified hit I'm not going to say I said it from the beginning uh because I'm just a shill so bye-bye-bye stranger things I think Pros yeah we'll see some pros later this week or uh the the following week I'm surprised that Pros sold I thought only premiums would sell I was wrong all right that's all that's all percolating but what's coming down is the market tring down is the market yes finally you admit the truth it just is what it is I'm just the conduit of communication that uh the uh mother Market she describes to me it's like Mother Earth but mother pinball but more money yeah yeah she's uh she's snorting cover absolutely look training down is the pinball Market it'll warm back up in a bit a couple weeks right we're going to have that that holiday season everybody's going to want to buy bye byy they're going to purchase stuff cuz you're actually good people and you purchase actual good gifts like pinball machines and accessories for for your friends and loved ones um don't be a don't be a grinch oh here's some here's some new rubbers for your Al oh come on buy a Topper couple weeks from now to the end of December it's going to be hot hot hot right we're going to have a a nice warm sales because of that and sure a cold front's going to move in from January to February I'm Eric stoning this [ __ ] yeah cold front's coming in January February but fear not Stern pimble Dennis they've equipped their next game with thermal protection mhm you heard it here first the technology is not new but it's very effective at heating up a very frigid Marketplace uh in a Thanos snap they simply call this proprietary Innovation Keith [ __ ] elwin and he's going to come blazing into the end of the year like a FY Phoenix Scout creepy demon toyed little bastard and hornier than ever Here Comes te one Jaws that's not a shark yeah rumored shark jaws I don't care what you've heard about it if it's true uh they're going to have like a little orb around them and the their nipples aren't going to be cold they're going to be soft and they're going to be supple now because the fiery Phoenix goat of Keith lwin is going to protect us all from the blizzard that is the market 20123 into 2024 coming soon and as always I'm just here to report the facts people don't kill me don't throw arrows don't be a Jerry because numbers don't lie and guess what people neither will I on pinball market trends Dennis where can people catch you again always email me collector Gamers podcast at gmail you really like that that pinball Market TR didn't you that was it yeah it was I like it we talk about how bad it is and then we'll just build it all up anyway whatever I feel like a I feel like I could go to run a run a race right now like I lift up a pinball machine you can email us at the pinball show gmail.com uh follow like And subscribe to us Facebooks the Tik toks hey Discord you want to hop on our Discord all you got to do is go to patreon.com pinball show become a member it's called support don't just listen with your ears listen with your wallet today bye bye bye support support support uh follow like And subscribe to flipping out pinball the sponsor of this show you really need to do that Facebook Instagrams all of that when I buy my pinballs and I buy from flipping out from Toppers areer I've got it figured out flipping out figured out when I think a pinball I think living out sing out see it out I froming Out product showcase this week is the Alvira blood red kiss Edition we have what two left I think two left and then they're gone what are you going to do they're finished phito gone bye bye bye we have a all kinds of other games go to our Facebook page right now for the most up-to-date used and new uh list of games and accessories that we have um and you can check out on their website for the new games as well but all you got to do is go on there check out the list we ship in in the country too so shipping your used gtf or your used Halloween it's leave it to us we're the professionals it's fine it's easy it's a hell of a lot cheaper than you're going to get anywhere else it's flipping out pinball and if Stern continues the way they are we'll be having a clearance sale and everything tpn last week there's a lot of stuff last week Dennis yeah there was but we uh we had the Triple J podcast oh and then we go we we uh had final round as well those were the two round and special secret guest on the final round yeah Dan Rosenstein was too Plum drunk uh at Expo he I think he had a couple drinks didn't he message our tpn Discord I think he messaged in like the pincinnati thread that congratulations he won the the best podcast at Expo or something I'm like damn you're drunk go to sleep TP in this week cool [ __ ] how about that Dennis leave these people with a little Christmas nuggets yeah okay uh your Christmas nugget will be what's taters precious Great Scots and always practice safe pinball in this holiday season don't be afraid to 3D print Dennis and I some pinballed gifts the bigger the better baby we will share them on our social media a listas hi this episode sure sounds like flowers but the prettiest sight to see is the Holly that will be on your own home front door