thanks for tuning into the loser kid pinball podcast i am josh roop with me my co-host scott larson and i guess it's co-captain man we're on a streak son of a gun it's all good and scott yes black and white i know you want it where you know actually my buddy is ordering it so i'm really i'm hooking him up with zach and nicole at flipping up pinball so if okay i think it's beautiful. And the good news is they take trades. So if you're like, you know, I want a new game, but I have another one, they'll be able to work with you. If you want accessories, if you need those ninja stars for Deadpool, I hear they're back in. Also, if you have a Medieval Madness and you want that XL display, they have those in too, which is a good sign because that means they may be getting closer to make Medieval Madness again. Contact Zach and Nicole many have not been bothered. They've always been a friend of us. Rumors have been spreading quickly like wildfire now that those XL displays have popped up. Well, and things pop up for a reason, right? Yep. Okay, I didn't say it, but we're on episode 142. Welcome to 142. I'm excited for our guests today. Me personally, I grew up listening to punk rock and emo and stuff like that. And this band's album, Discovering the Waterfront, I felt like really pushed some awesome boundaries in that rock genre uh and they've just they've aged like a fine wine man and the gentleman we have with us right now you don't drink wine so i don't drink wine but i can appreciate those that do uh so if you don't know the band silverstein you might know his podcast lead singer syndrome we've got shane told on with us how you doing today shane what's up guys thanks for having me this is cool i've actually never appeared on a pinball podcast before so this is my first uh my first one i know you've been doing your podcast for what nine years now or something like that yep a long time i just i think i'm at like 360 something episodes now dang so yeah it's it's pretty wild um but yeah i enjoy it i love podcast i just love the format you know long form you know you get really into the little details i love that stuff so it's great keep it a family friendly keep it a pg up in here no i i totally get you and it's nice too because like my job i work a lot by myself with eating air conditioning so it's nice to turn on a conversation and listen to like uh i'm a big fan of the spill canvas and motion city soundtrack and you did interviews with both their main singers and it's you get a lot of information you just wouldn't hear otherwise and it's a sanely cool well yeah there's that and also just that people other singers know that i know so they kind of give a more complete answer to me do you know what i mean yeah it's it's uh uh they kind of can't they know that they can't bs me right so sometimes we get really into the nitty-gritty and and uh and i like that part so yeah if anybody wants to hear me blab more about music with other singers yeah it's called lead singer syndrome you can find it wherever you find your podcasts yeah it's pretty awesome like i I didn't know that you had apparently a fake feud with Motion City Soundtrack because you bought a terrible magician's wig and wore it on stage. Yes, we did. Yeah, we were on Warped Tour in – man, that must have been like 2006 or something. And yeah, we were so bored back in those days. We didn't have podcasts yet, I don't think. You didn't have cell phones. Podcasts hadn't even come out yet. Yeah, so it was a lot of downtime, a lot of boringness. So we had to make up fake feuds with people we actually liked. Yeah. Wait, wait, all the celebrity feuds are made up, right? Yeah. Uh, the funniest ones are when you see like some of the rap feuds and it's like the two rappers are on the same record label and you're like, come on, you got to see through this. Yeah. It's funny though. Or, or Hey, they showed up on the beach, like, uh, riding their skateboard and totally like jacked up, you know, after they've been working out and it's like, yeah, this is not a, this is not a publicity shoot at all whatsoever. It's like, they just happened to be on the beach. I know. Right. Well, I don't know if many people know this, but your band is originally from Toronto, but you moved to Vegas a couple, like 20 years ago. Is that what you were talking about? No, I think I, my sisters lived here for 20 years. Okay. Yeah. And that's kind of how I started coming here so much. You know, I, I'm, I'm here in Vegas right now. I live here now. I've only been here for like a year and a half actually. But my sister has been here for 20 years. So every Christmas I would visit. She's got the big family. And Vegas became kind of like my second home. So yeah, I really like it here. It's a little new to me. And living in the U.S. is a lot different than living in Canada. Like this is a really weird thing. You guys are from Utah, right? Yeah. I'm close to the Salt Lake area. Josh is in Dinosaur Land. Okay. Yes. Okay. And this is like, I'm not trying to get political or anything, but this just was really weird to me. Went to a McDonald's last night to get some French fries at like, you know, 1030 p.m. And walk in, you know, waiting for the fries. And there's like these kids, like 18-year-old kids or 19-year-old kids probably walk in. And one of them just straight up has like a gun. Like open, you know, like in a holster or whatever. Yeah, open carry, like in a McDonald's. And he's just like, I mean, these are the kind of guys like, you know, you don't think anyone's going to try anything, really. But like they had that look about him, like you're kind of keeping an eye on him. The guy's wearing an easy t-shirt, you know, and he's got a gun, you know, and I'm like, oh, man, this is weird. This is like not something that you see in Ontario, Canada, you know. And so that like things like that once in a while take me back, take me back a little bit. But other than that, yeah, I really like it here a lot. Yeah, I was going to say you should come visit me because in Dinosaur Land, this is where Doc Holliday and Sundance Kid and all them were. And it's not unusual for the cowboys to show up in the grocery aisle with six shooters on both hips. It's a trip, man. It's a trip. And I know there's concealed carry and people – and I don't know, whatever. It's just kind of surprising to me. I don't know. Not something I'm used to. I will say in Utah, it's actually a very gun-friendly state, I guess. Yeah. That's why Coach Malone moved here. I had no idea. But like I've never actually gone into a store and seen someone like with a gun on their hip or something. Yeah, well, I had seen it once in a home vehicle parking lot. I'd seen it, you know, like that. But like, you know, I don't know. Yeah, like an old cowboy looking guy. This guy looked like he was tall, lanky. Yeah. Okay. Yeah. You know, it was, yeah, it was. Interesting. yeah okay but this was not utah this was vegas this is yeah this is like this is vegas like right yeah right down the street from where i live you know 10 minutes from the strip yeah okay i don't know but everything else is it's pretty per usual like i really like it here yeah i like it and and the heat doesn't scare me too much i think because i grew up in like the coldest place ever so now i'm like how like 108 oh i think we can go hotter baby let's go hotter 110 whoo yeah you I think it's funny. There's air conditioning everywhere. There's shade everywhere. A lot of places you don't really have to go outside. It's not really a big deal for me. It's way better than the cold, that's for sure. I've had it explained to me that almost every place, unless you're San Diego, has three months out of the year that no one goes outside. That's pretty true. In the north, it's the wintertime. So you're basically heating your house, and in the sand states, it's the summertime, and you're just air conditioning your house. And so it's a flip-flop. Yeah, that's a really good way to put it. But in Utah, we've decided to snowboard and ski in those winter months when you don't want to go. Yeah, we don't really even have that in Toronto because we don't have mountains or anything. There's some ski, like mini dinky ski resorts, but that's not really even a thing. So yeah, it's just like everyone plays hockey, I guess. You know, it's all we got. Yeah. Well, thankfully, though, because of air conditioning, my I was actually going on vacation and my air conditioning went out and I called Josh and I said, hey, dude, my air conditioning is out and they can't fix it for five days. So what do I do? So just in case you guys have any air conditioning issues, you can call Josh and he can guide you through it. I changed my own capacitor. Oh, wow. Yeah. Wild stuff. four screws and three wires and you're good to go. Yeah, pretty much. Actually, the panel because the capacitor wasn't exactly the same size as the original one. The panel is kind of janky back on there, but it's still on there. That probably saved you probably a lot of money. A couple hundred at least. The capacitor did cost me $25. It's giving away secrets on the air. I know, right? Shane so we've got a little bit of a list of questions here for you and the first one we've got to ask the I know Shane or Zach many is going to go but how did you get into pinball what's your pinball origins what does he care exactly the topper king needs to calm down well I mean I think it's like most people so I'm 43 so you know I grew up in the early 90s going to arcades and stuff right and just playing all those early, you know, all those like Bally Williams games, you know, like Terminator two is one I remember really well, you know, and, and, um, you know, just a couple of like, I see you have a world cup soccer back there. Josh, that that's still one of my favorites. Cause I played the crap out of that game, you know, when I was a teenager. So yeah, I mean, I got into it a lot just, just through, through being a, being a kid. And I think for a while there you pinball just kind of like it got dark you know there wasn't a lot happening you know stern was the only game for a long time yeah almost yeah and and i mean i think a lot of people kind of forgot about it and like a lot of people i think it was kind of around covid maybe for me just a little bit before i think sort of reignited my love for it and you know all the barcades that kept popping up everywhere you know there's like only so much street fighter 2 you can play um you know and and uh and yeah i just just started getting really into it again you know you get to a point in your life where you got a little bit of money and then you're like maybe i could buy a machine or two or you know and um yeah and i the last few years i've been just just really into it really loving it it's you know just playing all the time okay two two questions one um on street fighter 2 which character uh ken or ryu you know okay Yeah, that's my go-to. I was a Chun-Li. I always played Chun-Li. You cheap bastard. I know, but I could win. I could win. I was always impressed with people who played Dalsim because I'm just like, I had no idea how to play that dude. Oh, so slow. I know. I guess you have to keep your distance and you're all right. Yeah, exactly. But that's the point. Okay. All right. So what was the – during COVID, what was the pin that drew you back in where you're like, hey, this is still a thing. pinball still alive that's a great question um maybe it was maybe iron maiden i think that was that was a that was one that was that one i did see that there behind your head yes um iron maiden uh star wars i think it was really only like it was the modern stern machines that i think i hadn't seen how like crazy they they've really gotten you know in in the last you know few years or whatever and that that's kind of when it happened um yeah and and yeah then i just kind of like dove in and was like all right what's coming next like what else is out there you know and some of those jersey jack games too like yes you have a wizard of oz that's that's awesome like seeing those with like the huge screens you know and and everything they were doing the light show it's like oh my god it it's like okay this is pinball is back like way back oh Oh, yeah. Yep. Definitely. Loving it. So so did you end up buying any pinball machines or were you just kind of still hitting the barcades? Yeah, no. Yeah. Yeah. Still hitting the barcade for a while until I came down here. I didn't really have space where I was living in Canada for it. And just my situation, I don't know, I didn't feel like it was something I needed to have right in my house. And then I don't know, I moved into this house. I was like, I got a lot of space. I don't know. Maybe, you know, and then, um, the machine that put me over the top was, uh, was the Foo Fighters. And I, uh, I had to get, I had to get a Foo Fighters. Oh yes. Did you get the topper? I got the topper. Yes. I ponied up. I ponied up. I got raked over the coals, the, the $2,000 topper, the, the $215 shooter rod or whatever, 227, whatever it was. Yep. I, uh, I got them both and yeah, it was, it was a bit painful, but Hey, it looks sick. But you know what? Every time I pay for a topper, I always think, man, this is so expensive. And then I just didn't enjoy looking at them. They're fun. Yeah, exactly. And I don't know. I know the game has changed. And it changed kind of rapidly, right? It went from like, okay, you buy an LE and maybe you'll lose a couple bucks. So like once in a while you make money on it. Right. And now it's like, Oh my God, I don't even want to look at pin side to know what, what a Foo Fighters LE is worth. I mean, they're not bad. It's probably still worth 10, five, right. Or something, but it's, it's yeah. You know, it's it's whatever. I enjoy it. I'm happy to have it. And it looks sick. So, so it was Foo Fighters, like a band that you really mired growing up. What was it about Foo Fighters that just, you know, I think it was, I think so. I was always like, like you, Josh, I was, I was a, I'm a punk guy, right? Yeah. And there weren't, there's never really been any punk rock machines. Yeah. And not to say the Foo Fighters are punk rock. They have punk rock roots, but the game, when I played it, I was like, oh, this is so sick that they're touring in like this beat up red van. Yeah. Like the, the, yeah, the code and the graphics even early on was really good. Yes. And right away I was like, oh, this is such a cool game. and the tour you know the touring aspect of it you know you pick a city and you know then overlord all that like i just right away was like this is such a cool game and i you know and i was like i you know it's my first pin maybe maybe i should get godzilla you know but like you can play that anywhere and at the time i was like you know what i'm just gonna pull the trigger on it i can get an le which and that was still like in a time when it's like oh are these all gonna sell out like can i even get one now it's like you get a john wick le or a phantom le like so easily right okay but you can't get a godzilla le so you cannot get a god i couldn't get a godzilla le at the time probably anyway so right so it is depending on the game really but however i did google for you on pin side and you're still looking around 11 5 12 oh that's good yeah so you're good yeah it's still good well it's a good game it really is and speaking of punk rock roots this is what makes me chuckle about foo fighters like they're they're very mainstream rock but they come from like dave girl has uh the black flag guitar right like he toured with that during all my life tour and you've got like pat smear from the germs so i'm like they like you i agree with you it comes from very punk rock roots i think that's what drew me too because i was like i have a foo fighters behind me and it's just it's an awesome game it really is and yeah i hope it's not the first no and i've had it i mean i've had it for a long time and it's still like i still play it all the time like i still love it and um yeah i don't know it's i feel like it's falling out of favor like it seems like a lot of the spots here have gotten rid of it i think it doesn't do that well on location maybe yeah so some places have taken it out or gotten or moved on with it um so it kind of bums me out it's like oh man i want to play this in a tournament because i know how to play it really well and then every tournament it's like nah it's not in the tournament so but you know um no i still think it's awesome and yeah i can't wait for for jack danger's next game i mean well i know there's a lot of rumors about that but um pokemon gomez said he's up next in the pipeline so is that what you about to say scott the pokemon no no no i i'm just gonna say danger is next in the pipeline well danger is next in the pipeline i thought the the going rumor was it was pokemon so i heard pokemon i heard x-men yeah x-men 96 yeah i heard dungeons and dragons at one point it feels like that rumor's gone cold but i don't know yeah that would be i think a hail mary like you kind of missed the uh the window on that one i don't know chris Pine behind that one. If you got Chris Pine behind it, you know. Yeah. No. Okay. So here's, here's another question. Now I, I, the reason why my, my view, the reason why a lot of music pins don't stay on location and create a crazy amount of time is because they thrive more in a home environment because on location it's usually typically hard to hear them. And that's a, that's a big component to the game so it seems like after the big wave however it with each pin there's there's like three phases the first phase is the theme and the art and that's what sells a whole bunch of games then the middle phase is people whether they like playing it and continuing on but then there's like a rebound effect of people who are just barely getting into pinball machine they say oh there's there's a led zeppelin pinball machine i gotta have that and so the theme and the art kind of comes back into it but you're right with music pins they don't stay on in circulation nearly as long just because of that factor yeah it's yeah i think it's too bad with too bad with foo fighters because i do think it's a great game but yeah i don't know even iron you're right even iron maiden i don't see it as much really as i used to and where do they go where do they go I think the only I think the only ones I really do see is maybe a Metallica out on location I see those occasionally and maybe an ACDC but other than that I've never seen an Aerosmith out in the wild Aerosmith's kind of a bad game too it doesn't get talked about I've heard rumblings that they're going to remake that too okay now you're now on the tour and this is we can talk about this because this was not in the lockdown area. Like I walked by a big stack of decals that were from an Aerosmith side cabinet. And so my question, and Kate, that's not an accident. That's not, they don't, like that was just not set out there just, oh, well, we just haven't put these away yet. And so part of me wonders is like, are they punking us or are they actually teasing that they're going to consider rerunning that? Okay, yeah. all right okay so you're saying when you guys did like with all the influencers when you all went to stern yeah okay yeah i i heard all about that yes okay so you so there was yeah there's just no way when did that game actually come out 2017 16 yeah yeah so for that all to be there that's got it they got to be rerunning it i don't know i didn't see a lot of their punkiness they could be punkiness they could be i don't i don't know i didn't i wasn't there and i don't know how how organized it is like if it's the kind of thing where stuff is just thrown around because you know what i mean yeah but it's i mean it's probably a big place it's possible that it just happened to be there no it was actually it was on the floor next to where they do the cabinets where they assemble the cabinets yeah but it was it was in like this prep area thing yeah so so the way it works is they've got pretty much their assembly lines but the end of their assembly lines have got this big steel cage area where they keep all their old stuff so like in my thought process is if you're going to hold on to aerosmith stuff it's going to be in the cage where where they keep all their old toppers or their old whatever their back catalog is that they might throw something together it's just really weird that it was open sitting on the floor next to where they assemble the cabinets again and it's very clean joke part of me wonders if it's a joke because it's like dude we're going to put this out there and guess what we're going to get a lot of buzz from this you know they were trying to see oh go ahead no it is a spike to game though right like it like it's one of the first ones it was the first screen like yeah the batman 66 was the first one oh you sure are you sure someone will fact check it oh my goodness yeah that's interesting i um yeah because because of that then that makes a lot that puts a lot more into it like with all the Metallica rumors, you know, it's like, okay, they're not going to redo a DMD. They're not going to do it as is, I don't think. I don't think so because it looks dated. Yeah, exactly. It's like before, you know, it's kind of like an alphanumeric going to DMD. That is like a line of demarcation. Totally. And by the way, Josh is looking up to see whether or not Aerosmith was the first one. Batman 66 was first for Aerosmith. was second. Batman 66 in 2016, Aerosmith in 2017. Okay, fine. Followed by Star Wars. Batman 66 is a great game, too. You know, it's funny. That's hard to find anywhere, either. It is. I played it recently. I was down in Florida for a DJ thing, and I played it down there. It's great. It's fun. It's loaded, too. There's lots in it. Definitely. definitely it always seems like gomez games uh aside from lord of the rings tend to start off slow and then pick up steam as time like you know it's when batman 66 came out the code was laughably terrible and i understand why because uh adam west was really dying at the point oh boy so they wanted to get it out there but the code was i mean if you think releasing a code like 0.6 is bad. I mean, it was about as bare bones as you could possibly get. And it took a long time for the Lyman Co. to catch up to make it the game it is now. Well, yeah. I mean, that's the word on the street with James Bond too, right? And that's a game. Well, because it came out around the time of Foo Fighters, right? Like a little before maybe? It was right before Foo Fighters? Yes. It was in October and then Foo Fighters was in January. Yeah, I remember playing it. And just the first, my first initial impressions was like, this game is not that fun. The code was bad. Yeah. And then, I don't know. I kind of love it now. I kind of like when I see it in a lineup, I kind of like want to play it first. I don't usually play it first, but I kind of want to. Because it's kind of a cool game. It does show that I always roll my eyes a little bit when people say, well, you can't, code doesn't fix layout. Well, it doesn't fix layout. However, how you play the layout, it definitely affects. And so you can even Walking Dead. Walking Dead was panned when it first came out. Then when the code got up to steam, people said, this game is great. And that why code really does affect how you approach and how you play a game Yeah Yeah no question So do you have any other games besides Foo Fighters i have yeah i have foo fighters i have uh speaking of george gomez i have a lord of the rings nice and i have a total nuclear annihilation oh yeah yes uh yeah it's a lot of fun and there's in vegas there aren't any so it's the only place i can play it is my own own house uh and i have a um texas chainsaw masker on the way just i got my confirmation that it's going to get shipped soon nice from spooky so uh yeah that's that's uh yeah that'll be my lineup for a little while i'm i'm kicking the tires on a black and white godzilla because i i don't own i've never owned one and um yeah it's it's beautiful i saw it actually i was down at southern fried gaming expo and i saw the black and white in the flesh and that thing it looks so good oh yeah the cabinet is awesome and yeah and playing like it it the lights were cool it didn't feel like one-dimensional you know like people kind of want to complain like oh it looks boring didn't i didn't find that at all playing it i don't know anyone who says centaur is boring and it's it's it's that look right it's the yeah It's an affect, right? You're still going to play a game, and it does stand out. It certainly – the original Godzilla was black and white. So it seems the character integrity of a Godzilla in black and white seems spot on. I did show it to my wife, and she said, I like the color better. But my buddy is buying the black and white, and he lived in Japan for a couple of years. Yeah. I think I was like I was like this is sick when I saw it But when I saw it in person It put it right over the top I was like oh this is a no doubter now So I think a lot of people that haven't Because not really anyone's seen it right In person when you do it's like It will Convince you I think I felt the same way about Blood Red Kiss from Elvira I was like well did we really need a fourth edition of this And then we saw it at Expo And I was like holy crap this yeah i haven't i've never seen it so i uh but i but i believe i've heard nothing but great things and oh yeah i like i love elvira too what a great game so it sounds like you've been going because you went to texas pinball festival as well right yeah i went to tpf um and then it's funny because i wasn't gonna go to to southern fried and i just happened to be in atlanta that weekend nice and i was able to go on friday night for like two and a half hours I was there. So enough time to play Black and White Godzilla, look around. It was cool. I love the pinball festival vibe because everyone's just like, we're with our people. Everyone just smiles on their face. It's just a good vibe. Sadly, you probably won't be at Pinball Expo this year unless you're skipping out on When We Were Young. I know. It's the same weekend as the big, giant emo festival in Las Vegas. That is too bad. I had that circled on my calendar, but it's okay. There'll be more. Our friend George Fisher, actually, he does Don't Panic Flip. It's a stream. He's going to go to Expo, and then he's trucking it. He's not even going to fly. He's driving all the way down. Is he driving that Winnebago? Oh, yeah, dude. Nightmare City. How's that going to work? he's gonna go for so his family's from chicago so he's gonna go like sunday and then be there because expo starts on like tuesday this year they're doing factory tours on tuesday wednesday thursday maybe even friday because they're hitting all the factories that are in chicago and then he's gonna he's gonna drive down i think for saturday or sunday somewhere around there so because i was like you can't do chicago to vegas in one day that's that was my thought so okay he's got he's got like a sweet little uh like a Dodge pro master that's been converted into like a camper kind of thing. Well, it's a, it's a Winnebago. So it's like a motor home, you know, so it has the sleeper stuff in it. And that's actually what, okay. That's what the Winnebago, it's like buying a, you know, a Shelby Cobra, you know, you buy the Cobra, you take it to Shelby, they modify it, you know? So that's similar to that, but it certainly makes for, uh, it makes for flexibility. If you just want to drive and sleep in your car. so when we were talking like a month or two ago you said that you were in poland and you were stoked because you were hitting up i don't i can't remember where the place was but it had like 40 90s games or something like that what it was cool yeah it's called um i was in um krakow or krakow i'm not sure how you say the the name um poland yeah it was it was kind of random it's not a place that I, we never play Poland. We play Germany all the time. Um, but Poland's kind of a rare spot and Krakow is our, I think our first time over there. Um, so yeah, you know, every time I'm at anywhere on tour, I just pull up the pinball map and I see what's around, you know, it's, it's a lot of fun. Cause you know, being in the band, there's a lot of downtime, you know, between when I get up basically in the show, I don't really have that much to do most days, to be honest. So it's perfect, you know, especially being a singer. And a lot of times kind of wanting to rest my voice, going and playing pinball. It's like a very, you know, you don't have to talk to anybody, you're just kind of there. And you know, it's like kind of a good way to rest your voice, except when you're swearing, because when you drain or whatever, you know, that's the only time I use my voice. So So yeah, so that place was cool. It was this like, you kind of go down in this basement. It's very, very celery, very, not the vegetable, celery-like. And it was cool. And they had, yeah, they didn't really have any modern games, which I found refreshing because, you know, I don't know how much more Deadpool I need to play. No offense. Deadpool's great. I don't, you know what I mean? It's like when you get to a place and they've got six machines and it's six modern modern sterns. Yeah, I get it. Yeah. Yeah. Like that's fine. And, you know, like I'll definitely spend some time there. But, you know, when it's like six Bally Williams 90s games, I think I'm more stoked at this point. Yeah. You know, because some of them you don't see that much. And especially if they play really well, you know, then it's like, oh, man, like it's amazing. So that place was great. It was a lot of fun. I'm trying to remember some of the games that I played that I hadn't played before. But there was a bunch. And, yeah, it was awesome. And just – it's just something I love to do on tour whenever I get the chance is just find a little pinball bar and grab a couple hours to myself. It's very – I find it very relaxing. So do you pull any of your bandmates with you? Or the staff or anything like that? Or is this a solo sport? It's mostly a – yeah, it's mostly a solo mission. I get a couple guys to go with me sometimes, but they just don't have the – they don't have the bug. you know and they they yeah and they're always like oh you're like way better than me at least like oh yeah i can play all the time of course i'm better but it's um no i think they come once in a while or if there's a place we'll go have a beer and usually it's like them at the bar having a couple beers and you just like you know in the corner playing pinball the whole time um but yeah no it's uh it's something that i i really enjoy now it's it's great i was gonna say so go ahead Oh, I was going to say, go for it, Scott. Oh, there you go. Okay, so we all have our dream themes. But because you are in a band and you have like a bigger connection to the music industry, what are like five bands where you, you know, maybe not the ones that should be made. I think Journey should be made. I would say Def Leppard, Bon Jovi, even Motley Crue. But what are the bands that you're like, you know what? I would really like these made? This is a great question. And something I've thought about obviously a lot being that I'm in a band, you know, I think like it, first of all, it's so much depends on how involved the band is with the machine. Like I see you've got a rush behind you and like the band doing call outs. And that I think really makes the game, you know, and how you can kind of incorporate it into, you know, like a theme and the food fight Foo Fighters does like probably the best job of any band pin ever of doing that because you've got the characters you know you're they're all together they're they're kind of on this it's kind of like a band but then they're on a you know trying to save the world kind of thing right it's like the whole alien theme like that's so good to have that extra layer whereas like led zeppelin it's there's nothing it's nothing to it it's like there's no i don't even think the likeness of the band members is in the game at all it's on the play phone but there's no call outs there's no like there's no like oh you know like jimmy page is doing a solo and like you got to keep the ball alive and if you if the solo is before you have the ball then like you get you know whatever like it's just basic stuff that should be in a led zeppelin game right yeah it's like a hot topic you bought a lunchbox that said led zeppelin on it and that's pretty much how much soul of Led Zeppelin is in that game. Yeah, it's rough. It's rough, you know? Yeah, even Iron Maiden, like, it's a great game. It's a great shooter, of course. But, you know, there's not that much assets in it, really, right? There could be way more stuff in it, you know? So I think that's the big thing. And I think of, you know, a lot of people will roll their eyes when I say this, but I think if you could get something like Blink-182. Yes. But have them in the game, have them doing all the stupid call-outs, all the silly stuff that they do, like all the dick and fart jokes. Yes. That would be fun. A toilet filled with bean dip? It would be fun. That would be a fun, fun game. And they haven't done a punk rock game yet. No one's done it. And Travis Barker, that guy is so famous now. Yeah. I think that that could work really well. I think Green Day would be great too. Same thing. You got to get the band in it. You know, you have to do it right. Okay. Well on green day, here's the question though. Would you do the entire catalog or would you stick to American idiot? No, no, no. You got to do, you got to do the whole catalog. I think Duke is bigger than, than yeah. Okay. I would say though that, um, okay, here's my theory on bands. It seems like they ascend, ascend, ascend until they hit what I would consider their, you know, their Xena, their best thing. And then it feels like so many bands just disappear right after that because they put everything into that album. And for me, that was American Idiot. Yeah. Well, you know, everyone has their own opinion. I do. I mean, for me, Dookie is the record. All right. You know, American Idiot is fine. It's probably like my fifth favorite Green Day record. Oh, wow. Oh, man. That hurts me. That hurts me. Yeah, maybe number four. I don't know. We're not going to rank records right now, but I don't know. I think like it's – with a band, I think you've got to celebrate their entire existence, I think. I think that's part of what makes it fun. Unless you're going to do like multiple ones. Like I thought there was talk of this being maybe Metallica doing a new Metallica machine, which would make sense. I mean like Guns N' Roses did one back in the day. Unforgiven or something, yeah. Yeah, like you could do another – like it would sell like crazy with a new layout regardless of who designed it or whatever. But you could do like, okay, this is going to be dedicated to – they were talking about Ride the Lightning turning 40 from 1984. Like you could do – okay, do an entire Ride the Lightning-themed machine for an anniversary. Cool. But that's maybe you can do that because Metallica has already had a machine, right? It's like if you do a first game and it's just one record and it's the same album songs over and over again, I just don't think that's that cool. You're right. I'm just wondering from a theme standpoint. You're right. It's like Rush, if you just did moving pictures, it wouldn't work just because there are so many other popular songs. And I say that tongue-in-cheek because I know a lot of people don't know any Rush songs other than Tom Sawyer. but um i'm from canada i'm like yeah i'm like yeah he grew up in canada no okay i'm talking to most people and let's be honest we know that getty and alex forced you out of toronto because they don't want competition um yeah i'll admit i i um with all due respect to to rush and um and Getty and Alex, um, and you know, uh, their late drummer as well. I, um, I'm not a fan of the band. Well, and they are, that's because you have to be 10 years older. No, legitimately. Like that's, that's my, and I only caught the tail end cause my brother who's five years older than me. So that's all I would listen to was rush. It could make sense. No one else was, no one else in my age group was listening to rush. So my, my sister is seven years older than me and she, from Canada and she loves Rush. So that, that does kind of check out, but I don't know. I just, it's one of those, um, and God, I hate saying this on the record, but I, but I guess I will. It's like his voice is nails on a chalkboard to me. And like when that band comes on the radio, I turn it, I change it instantly. And when I'm playing the Rush game, which I, and I think, I think the pin's okay. I think it's maybe a little overrated. No offense. I know you have one behind you, but, um, I'm happy to be in a loud bar where I can't hear the music on that one. that's for sure okay the flip side though some people like i have a so jeff from the pinball podcast when he was talking about uh iron maiden he said i don't know i can't stand the music it's like it's like rush got drunk and learned how to write metal and i was like pretty funny well i guess it checks out because i like both of those bands but uh anyway okay you know i i get it it's Geddy Lee is not for everybody I'll put it that way I was going to say there is actually sorry not to cut you off but there is one punk rock machine out there it's literally called just punk and it was by Gottlieb in 82 oh really? that does not count that's probably hilarious that is terrible okay there's a heavy metal just generic heavy metal heavy metal meltdown yeah but no you you have to look it up it's definitely gottlieb did this whole thing where they were just they would do like one word uh pinball machines like punk and stuff like that yeah they were all like rip-offs because it's like they didn't do you know they didn't do top gun they did like gold wings or they didn't do miami vice they did like hollywood heat you know just all these other ones that were just like these are not you know this is this is discount bin five dollar dvd stuff so you said blink you said green day i'm kind of surprised you haven't said no effects yet or do you think that'd be too underground i think it's too underground i think i think if you know i think with with a lot of games having smaller runs you probably could do it like there's probably 500 to a thousand people that would buy a no effects machine because i would buy one i don't maybe that's all you need now right because you look at you look at spooky you know like with TCM and Looney Tunes, like they, they can't sell out 888 of each, right? They're not, I don't even think they're close. Right. And, and those games are cool, you know? And I like for, for me, Texas Chainsaw Massacre was like a dream theme and I bought it immediately because it's my favorite horror movie. And I was like, this is amazing. And you play as the killer. And I'm like, this is so sick. Like nobody's doing that. And so I bought that game immediately. Right. And I think that with certain bands they have a big enough fan base that it would work but they have to be the right bands that really mean a lot to people you know what i mean yeah i think i think no effects could pull it off just because there's such a love for that band their fans would like would die for them you know i'm saying like take a bullet and so i think if you did a pinball machine i think it would it would do very well even as just a collector piece yeah i would i would love to see it i mean yeah or bad religion or rancid or like any punk bands from that era i would be all about it uh but yeah i don't know i don't know how if that would fly um but i will say this too and i haven't heard a lot of people talk about this i gotta figure it's way easier with licensing crap to deal with a band and a band's manager than it is to deal with an entire movie studio oh 100 like that's that's got to be way easier and probably way cheaper too if the band wants to do it like oh we got we don't need like millions of dollars to to you know for this just just cool we can we can we each get one okay cool then like sure like you know because it's kind of an honor to have a band pin i think i i feel like it's a love letter to the band right because like You ever look at the artwork for Primus? I mean, Jeremy Packard's on yet. He did the artwork and he was a huge Primus fan growing up. And that artwork is just a love letter to the band. You got Les Claypool doing call outs. It's just, it's a really cool way to take your catalog and put all the spotlights on everything you love about it. Right. Okay. No, 100%. And I'll tell you right now, I don't think my band is big enough to have its own. Okay. Okay. But that's, that's a great segue though. Okay. That question's coming. We are in fantasy, though. And by the way, my favorite Les Claypool story is that I heard he auditioned for Metallica, and they basically said, you're way too good. I've heard that, too. That's a true story. Okay. So this is fantasy land. So you have made it to the big league. You can pick any designer. You can pick any studio. You can pick whatever you want for your band, Silverstein. like what are you going to who are you going to pick and who would you want to make it and who do you want to do art like who do you want to do rules let's i want this is your dream thing wow wow you know and i you won't believe me i've never thought about this i've thought about yeah this is never going to happen it's a pipe dream i've never like actually started being like okay give it 20 years give it 20 years right who knows um man i think jack danger would be the guy because he gets it he gets punk rock and where i came from and this guy's always like posting stuff about ska music on his instagram and everything like i know he would get it um for artwork i don't know geez we're really going down the stern train now i'm thinking well it's got to be zombie yeti you know yeah right and and it's got to be stern that makes the game now right But I don't know, man. I don't know. There's so many great people. It could be, right? Steve Ritchie's over there now, maybe. I mean, it would be cool to have a Jersey Jack machine with just all the bells and whistles. I don't know. Nobody's paying $15,000 for that collector's edition, that's for sure. But I do like what they're doing over there. And I think those games are getting – Elton John is awesome. No, it's great. It's great. It shoots great. It feels so good to play. I it's, it's maybe, it's probably going to be game of the year. Right. I mean, that's, that game's sick. So yeah, man, I don't know. It's a tough, that's a very tough, uh, it's a very tough and hypothetical question. Okay, but coding. You actually have a lot more openness on coding because you could go with Keith P. Johnson at Jersey Jack if you want the deep Volunar code, if you want the Wizard of Oz. You could even go with Keith Elwin as the coder because he's the architect on his team. Okay, let's get Keith involved too then. I like that. I like that. All right, so Jack and Keith working together. Okay, and Keith doing the code. but it's a Jersey Jack machine. Okay, great. We're going way out, right? We're going way out. And apparently we have Spooky doing the licensing, right? Is that how it's working? Yeah. That's right, yes. Yes, because, yeah, that's right. No, Bug is a nice guy. We want him to be involved somehow just because he's, yeah. Well, they include toppers, so I'm right there. Yeah. Actually, okay, but here's the dream, though. You should get CGC to do the topper. Oh, yes. So it'll take how long? Well, okay. Three, four years. We will all be in walkers and wheelchairs, but either way, it will look great. But you were talking about with Foo Fighters, you love it because it's about the band, but it's also this alternate story. What would the alternate story be for Silverstein? That's the question. Oh, man. Would it be like Fight Club and you're taking down corporate credit and all that stuff? You know, Fight Club, we did use a Fight Club sample in one of our movies. so that would be like kind of a cool like little twist um damn dude because i was just thinking the alien band theme was really good that's like hard to top you know especially since they're touring on top of it i don't know that's all that's all really good stuff i don't know because because like with fight club you you know they had all those network of network cities and stuff so you could still do that like touring whatnot but you're networking the cities so you can drop them all at the same time whatever i really all like maybe maybe maybe a sports theme maybe like world cup soccer meets meets band what do you think yeah that'd be cool sports games anymore yeah i i i would feel like i think silverstein would do that good but i think the band that would that is poised for it would be like a day to remember with their whole like kickball and stuff like that that they did for their music video they'd be a fun pin that'd be an awesome those are my friends they they got good they got good character they do fun stuff yeah they would be great i was wondering if you could sell 500 i was wondering if you guys were friends because you're on the same label and so yeah yeah yeah we've known a day to remember forever i mean we took them out on one of their first tours it's really a funny story so jeremy the singer for a day to remember the first show we played with them they opened for us and it was in i want to say like somewhere in like wisconsin and so we met them that day and jeremy was sick and he slept in the van and their merch guy did vocals for them so the first time i ever saw it i remember it was their merch guy trying to sing and yeah he wasn't very good and i was like what's going on this is this is not yeah and um yeah so it's really it's a really funny story but hey that's awesome they've come a long way now they're like they definitely have massive they just played red rocks actually in denver so yeah and then they play incredible it's great to see They just played here in – well, Salt Lake City on Sunday with Store of the Year and Four Years Strong. I wish I could have went. That would have been an insanely good show. What a band. No, it's true though. Like the niche the idea of niche pinball like if a company were to do and I don know There a lot of companies out there right And there a lot of competition now with these kind of boutique pinball companies Like if someone were to say like, okay, we are thinking about making this game and we need, let's say, 250 people to say to commit to buying it. Could you do that? If it was some like a band like A Day to Remember or something niche but like where the license would be really cheap, you know, because a band would just like do it for basically for free or just like, yeah, sure. send us five machines and that's like that's payment enough yeah you know i wonder if that would work which is which is funny to me because like i feel like i don't know if you listened to our interview with ed Ed Robertson of bare naked ladies i didn't i love oh my no we used to have the same manager as bare naked ladies too i didn't know um i knew he was into pinball i didn't know he was on your show yeah so we had him on and he said that like he's like the call outs for uh he helped Alex and Getty with the call outs. Yeah. Okay. Yeah. I did. I did know that. Yeah. But he was saying like, he doesn't feel like bare naked ladies is big enough to do a pinball machine. And I was like, I don't know about that. I feel like they're pretty, they're big enough. I feel like. Yeah. It's like a weird one. I don't know. It's hard to know with bands that have had, like they've had huge success, like on the radio and stuff. Right. So I don't know how many of their fans are like going to pony up, like 10 grand or whatever to buy a machine of their likeness. You know what I mean? Maybe their fans are old enough and there's enough of them, but like there's a lot of people, and this is with all due respect to Ed and the band, there's a lot of people that go to their show because like they love some of the songs that they heard on the radio, you know? And, and, but like how immersed in them, how much of a lifestyle it is. It's not like Metallica or Iron Maiden or, you know, other, bands that really have just a huge cult following. Not that Barenaked Leaves doesn't, but I think it's different, and that's probably what he meant. Maybe. If you look at the album sales of the bands that have been produced, Rush is by far the lowest selling. Okay. Are you sure? Yeah. Okay, Primus. That was a contract game. and yeah that was because it wasn't a cornerstone we'll put it that way yeah what yeah so but if you look at it i offhand i think that rush is like 60 million or something like that and then you get into like aerosmith which is like 300 million you get into metallica you get into rolling stones you get into beetles you get into acdc and all those i they are at least you know three well four to five times what Rush has done. Okay, you mean you're talking record sales? Yes, yeah, I'm sorry. I'm talking record sales. I thought you meant like number of pinball machines sold. No, no, no, I'm sorry. I'm talking record sales. Yeah, they sold 500 million. When you said that, I was like, 60, what? No, no, no. There's like 60 million in sales? Where are you getting these figures from? Does Stern release this? So what I'm saying is that when you're talking about bands, when it talks about how much do you need, I mean, Rush was by far the lowest album sales of all the bands they've done. And if you look at Primus is a unique example. But if you look at Rush versus, you know, ACDC versus Metallica versus Guns N' Roses. Guns N' Roses. Yeah. You can even argue Elton John, even though Elton John is he said he certainly sold a lot. But he sold a lot. Oh, he sold a lot. No, no. I'm not sure if the pin is selling as well as the ECDC just because of the price point. So that is something to consider when you're looking at bands is that is it enough to move the needle in such a small community of fans? And that's the thing is my take on it is I don't think the record sales matter. Really? No, I think it's the cult following. I think it's the people that are willing to support a band through and through that are like, okay, five figures, I'm putting it down. And I think Metallica has those kind of fans. I think Guns N' Roses has those kind of fans. I think Elton John does not really have that many fans like that. Maybe some, but here's the best example. There's no way ABBA has that many fans, those kind of fans. and they've sold probably more records than all these bands we talked about. So maybe that's the problem is that a lot of companies are going, oh, well, they've sold this many records, so that means we can sell this many pinball machines. And I don't think that it translates. I think Slayer probably hasn't sold that many records. I mean, probably a lot, but not anywhere near what a lot of other bands would. But I think that no problem you can sell a couple thousand Slayer machines. So you're saying a Hannah Montana machine would not do well? I don't think so. I don't think our demographic of whatever 40 to 50-year-old men are buying Hannah Montana machines at all, right? Or Taylor Swift. I saw that one floated around too. Good luck getting that license. See, I think Taylor would actually. It probably would. I think she would. Probably would. But I think Pink would be better. Yeah, that's interesting. I don't know. I don't know. There's so many artists and I just don't – so many better artists, I think. But I do wonder if you did a super niche thing where you said, okay, let's do almost like a Kickstarter. Okay, can we do this many? Okay, how many do we need to make this game? Cool, let's make it. And that could be enough. It could still be really, really cool. I don't know. I agree. And I think because you have a different mindset too because in the 2000s, downloads became a huge thing. and album sales weren't actually an indicator of how well a band was or wasn't doing. Because I don't know if you watched the documentary Bleeding Audio with the Matches, but they talk about this. It's a really good – Like the Adeptat Band and Matches from San Francisco? Yeah. Oh, okay. Or from Oakland? Yeah. Yeah, whatever. So they did Bleeding Audio, which they released like a couple years back. But that was the one thing is they said the album sales weren't there, but the problem was is they had so many people showing up to their shows and so the record label didn't know what to do because they're like we're obviously selling shows but you're not selling albums and then they had this whole thing like they were selling albums out the back of the van because of you know they they bought up so many of them it was it was very interesting but it's one of those things that we're living in a modern age where where album sales doesn't necessarily translate to its popularity because of just the way music is we stream it and stuff like that you know what i'm saying yeah it's i mean it's changing all the time too that's a really interesting time though with the matches like i remember that band like playing with them back in like 2004 i think like early 2000s and that was a weird time because there was just so much pirating going on too so like you would have so many people using uh napster you know or limewire or whatever and and buy you know not buying your record but still loving it and finding your show i remember the first time we played in Mexico City, we didn't have a record out there. We had no distribution. There was no way you could buy a record of ours legally in Mexico. Did not exist. And we went there and the show was sold out in advance and it was absolutely bonkers. Everybody was singing the word. They were singing the songs before we even went on stage. And we were like, how is this possible? And it's all because of back then it was just all illegal downloading and we were happy for it it was great hey get the music out there it's better if people come to buy a ticket and a t-shirt that's way better than buying a cd and never coming to the show you mean you get you get more uh return on your investment than the dollar you get from selling the cd yeah exactly right it's 100 so that's that's like a i don't know it's a really interesting point how all these numbers and stuff like you know and then now nowadays it's like oh how many followers do you have on social media and all that and you know it doesn't always translate to to actual real popularity you know i think the one that that really stands out to me is like some 41 like does this look infected came out and they were kind of like well it didn't do so great albums wise but they were selling out bigger and bigger in venues so like you obviously knew that they were doing really well amazing record too oh amazing amazing record so i don't know yeah it's You're right. It's a real common thing, and I think there's lots of bands that could do band pins just because they have that cult following. Yeah. I would buy a Sum 41 pinball machine in a heartbeat. Yeah. There you go. That's a pretty good example. That could be cool. And that's another one along the lines of Green Day or Blank where if the band is involved – because those guys are funny. like some of the funny music videos they've made and stuff, it could be awesome, especially because they're closing the chapter on their career too. What a way to close it out. Okay, cool. We're done. Here's this career-spanning machine. I don't know if those guys care about pinball or get it or whatever, but there's definitely people that do in bands that would be all about it. It would have to include super soakers because I don't know if you know the story behind this, Scott, But 741 originally did all their album out in Canada, and none of the record labels would pick them up. And so what they did is they went and did all this crazy stuff in their hometown. They went and robbed a pizza place, but with super soakers, and they just stole a pizza. And then they were just squirting people on the side of the road. And so they sent this video in along with their album to the American record labels, and they had people fighting over them to sign them. and so uh they ended up on island def jam which is a very interesting record label to be on because you know anywho but um yeah it just stuff like that right like there's that there's that super soakers and i don't know just be really cool to have especially where they've went from like pop punk all the way up to like metal now so yeah yeah no be a good okay sure now yeah yeah i only know that uh motley crew basically signed with electra because there was a bidding war after the first album that's that's the extent of my uh record signing uh must be nice to have you in a bidding war must be nice well you can do it if you i think that they just uh self-released their first album and yeah at least back in the day the the funny thing is the the first of the hair bands that actually reached number one was quiet Riot and all the bands on the Sunset Strip just kind of looked around and was like these guys? These guys got number one? And then the doors opened and all of them got signed but it was just funny because even they didn't have any respect for Quiet Riot which was hilarious. That happens in every scene. I won't name names but that happens in every single scene and it's very rare that the best band is the biggest. That's music. Yeah. I'm going to pitch this idea to you Shane. I think we should have like a traditional like warp tour pin and that way you could have all these bands but not necessarily like a dedicated pin and you could have such a storyline with a warp tour pin right like there was so much insane stuff going on with warp tour i just think that's a cool idea i like that idea warp tour pin yeah you you get kevin lyman to sign off on it you get some sponsors you know involved to get their likeness on the machine just like you do the festival and then Yeah, the bands, whatever. The bands will be happy to have their songs in there. You can get them all a sign-off. That won't be that hard. And there's a lot to choose from. So there you go. Done. You could even – because you know the stages were kind of like genre-specific too. So you could even – you could do genre – you could bounce from stage to stage, progressing through songs and stuff like that. I just – I think it's a great concept. Someone pick it up. We are – yeah, we are pitching all kinds. We're putting everything out there today. Seriously, we should open our own pinball company because they're going out of business now. So we should be able to keep them going. Definitely flies. Now you're bringing it up. Way to go, Scott. You've killed another company. And it's not Pindretti. Oh, sorry, Padretti. Yeah, okay. So for the person who caught me on saying Pindretti, I still – No, dude, it was like several people. It wasn't just fine. Okay. For the people who, okay. Pinned ready is a better option. Okay. They should change their name right now to pin ready because if they're a pinball company, they should be pin ready. That's okay. I'm going to, I'm just going to do it for them right now. Yeah. Just making the shirts right now. Pinned ready. Yeah. That's the new loser kid swag with our hockey jersey. If you haven't gotten our hockey jersey, now's the time and the pin dreaded shirts are coming. Okay. The hockey jersey looks awesome. Okay. That black and white hockey jersey, I need to get that because it looks really good. Yes. Yeah, so we're getting around to it, but Haggis, it's done. They're done. They're no longer a company. They're officially in liquidation. Unfortunately, they're following the path of a lot of these small startup companies who I would say with the best of intentions wanted to make a good product. but were unable to deliver on their promises. Yes. So what are they liquidating? Do they have anything to liquidate? Can you get all the parts and build your own? One of those play field rotisserie things. In any business, there's always physical assets, like manufacturing stuff and that type of stuff. When it comes to unproduced game parts, I don't even know what happens with those, but that may be interesting. Unfortunately, it's another one of those situations where the buzz grows faster than you can produce, and it kind of collapses on itself. It's always a risk when you're starting a company outside of the area where all the pinball is made, which is Chicago. And then very, very, very outside. Yes. Very, very far away. That's the biggest problem. It's like if you've ever been to Australia, it's like it's so far. It's just getting anything there is prohibitively expensive. You know, shipping anything there. There's no way there's any parts made there. So it just, yeah, I think that was just a disaster waiting to happen, honestly. He didn't know much about pinball when he first got into it, too. And so there's also that where you have the Labyrinth guys, the Barrels of Fun guys. Those are people who have actually been in the industry. Yeah. So they have a leg up. Just imagine, okay, I know nothing about putting a band together and organizing music and a tour and everything. So why don't I just go ahead and grab four rando dudes and we'll start a company. We'll start a band and then we'll just start touring because that sounds easy, right? And being in a band and touring and doing all that stuff, it's easy. What could possibly go wrong? Yeah, man, it's a shame, you know, and I don't know everything I've read about it. I don't know if we're ever going to even get the whole story. I think it's just radio silence, right? So it's been updated. They went into external administration, which apparently involves appointing someone, an insolvency professional, to take the property and kind of liquidate stuff to make sure it can pay the debts to winding up the business and its interests. So they've really kind of liquidated it. This is where they go in, they evict the person from the house, they go through and they document all the assets that are left in the house, and they sell them for pennies on the dollar and just try to get anything of it. And you're done. There's no way you're even part of it. Well, what's funny to me is like we – so we went through the Stern thing, and they really, really boast about their Gottlieb machine. So on a play field to point where all the screws and stuff go in, they slide it into this machine and then it comes down and it puts a little indents into every single plate, every stern play field since the beginning of stern or I think even data East or whatever. So, so like this is a single machine and it's a very specific machine. And apparently, I mean, if you've got it from Gottlieb that was made back in the fifties or forties, like they don't make these machines just left and right. So how do you buy one of these machines? Is this just like a – you know what I'm saying? It just – I don't know. It just – like you guys are saying, it's really hard to make pinball outside the U.S., so I can't even fathom how they were doing it in Australia. It's hard to make pinball outside of Chicago. Yeah. I don't know. Barrels of Fun is doing it. I think they're doing a good job. I know you can't. I'm not saying it's impossible. But what I am saying is that you are putting yourself in a handicap position to start with when you don't use the assets that are available and well-known in the industry. So that's the challenge. And we feel bad for anybody who has lost their money on these games. And this is a situation where I feel bad for the company, too, because this is a company that did have the best of intentions. This was not a con artist trying to rip off old people and just taking their retirement and then living large. That's a completely different situation. This also isn't J-Pop, who's starting Zidware and taking pre-orders for all these crazy expensive machines. and then decides that, oh, I really don't have the ability to manufacture games because he was delusional from the start. I don't feel Haggis was that way. I feel Haggis just grew way too fast, and the gravitational pull of the expansion collapsed them. Yeah. I don't know. It just sucks. Like, I was rooting for Haggis, and it just sucks. What? Yeah. Let me ask you guys this, though. I mean, with people that are buying new in-box games, losing their deposit, I mean, how many times are you going to get burned, right? And I'm not saying that other manufacturers are necessarily going to go under, right? There's nothing that seems to say that the smaller boutique companies, any of them are going to go away. American Pinball was looking – that's maybe – Yeah, questionable. Yeah, there are questionable things. So you got to think like now that it's happened, where people have lost just lost their deposits, and they know they're not getting that money. Do you think that's going to hurt the industry? Especially now when you can pretty much just wait and get a game, sometimes even before, even if you pre order it, you can even get it somehow, you know, someone has one or someone got one before you and you can buy a used one even before your number gets called. yeah do you think that's gonna really hurt the industry especially these smaller companies that rely on deposits i think it will i think people have kind of had enough i think that unless if they're deaf like barrels of fun i felt like it was a different situation even though it did kind of rely on pre-order money but they had already had a lot of those built and started shipping them out, right? But I think the pre-order model is kind of done because we have eight, I think eight good pinball companies that are established that you can buy a pinball machine from. And so I think it's going to be harder and harder to be an upstart where you're using, like you said, Kickstarter money. I just, I don't see it happening anymore like that. it will still happen it will still happen because people are buying off theme and they're buying off FOMO and they are not thinking rationally when they do this they they think oh a thousand dollars I definitely want that is my dream theme and I'm gonna get in on it and I'm gonna help them out And I don't have a problem with any of that. What I do have a problem with is people taking a risk about, hey, I'm going to invest in this project that may or may not happen. And then they cry sour grapes when the company goes under. There is enough of a track record to prove that these are not guaranteed. and so if you are willing to give a company a thousand dollars to reserve a spot you have to expect that there is a good chance that you're not going to get that money and unfortunately i'm just saying i'm just saying that that people are getting burned now though like they're legitimately it's happening so are those same people gonna do it again yes because okay i'll just i'll just put him off Skit-B Skit-B with the predator machine i that was it that was a total like uh con job where he didn't even have the license and people gave money to that when j-pop did zidware it was a hey we'll take the money we'll do this stuff and it never happened they had to take him to court then when deep root came out people was like oh well this is something different it's and then We get to haggis, and there are so many of these things that people vote emotionally with their money and their purchasing power. This is why I always say there is no such thing as an unobtainable game. For every Jersey Jack Pirates of the Caribbean, there are that, okay, I missed out on that game, and now it's worth $30,000. for every one of those there are hundreds you know tens or hundreds of games where it's like okay i didn't get it exactly when i wanted it and i may have paid 500 over what i would have done for but a lot of times you get it for cheaper than what you would have done okay but i think the problem you're equating so okay you've talked about skitby but they had predator so they obviously had a thing people wanted right and then you talk highway who had alien that's true they weren't no one was clamoring for okay big lebowski they finally got their games out after 10 years but my point being is so like with haggis obviously those people wanted the classic fathoms and centaurs they weren clamoring for kelts look at so i can think of three companies right now that are pretty much asking for pre money it may not essentially pre money but they with those startups right And no one clamoring for their games At least I don hear that And I could be entirely wrong, but like tilt Bob, they just really start work for their road trip game. That's coming out. I don't know many people that are excited for this. I don't know many people are giving money for this pinball ventures, sorcerer, which I haven't heard anything about. And then their first game, uh, the punny factory. and then the only other one that i can think of um is turner clips yeah from turner and so that's the thing though is is the the previous companies had well all except for Skit-B because skip you actually didn't have the licensing they said they had it and then someone found out they're like you don't have anything for this and he's like oh crap oops we just went bankrupt but i I think when it comes to licensing games, it's going to be very hard for startup companies to get that kind of sway, unless if you're like Barrels of Fun, who has an in with people in the industry. So I just, I don't see, as far as your question of people getting burned, I don't see it happening because I feel like the tried and tested will get the licenses, and those that are upstarts are going to have to prove themselves. Yeah. I think people will still do it. It may not be in the same volume that has happened in the past, but people will still vote with their, like, you know, just emotionally purchase this thing. Yeah. It just sucks. Overall, it sucks for Haggis. Are there any rumors of Barrels of Fun's next game? I want to say it's another 80s movie, but I could be entirely wrong. I thought the rumor was, I don't know. I was going to say Princess Bride but that no sorry Princess Bride yeah that was actually made with B3 yeah made their competing there's two Princess Brides coming out yeah it's not the Princess Bride it's the the Prince King yeah or the King whatever the Groom the Groom King okay I want to transition back to fun stuff though yeah okay Shane you are assembling a home arcade with 10 machines. Oh, man. Which 10 are you picking? What are the 10 most expensive? Or the 10 that won't lose me money. Okay, you can't buy in Liquid Aid. This is not a Gene wishing for more wishes situation. Big Bang Bar, Medieval Madness. Man, it's tough. I think I like... I don't know. I don't know if I like a lot of the games that people love you know like for example attack from mars it's fun yeah i played a million times i don't i don't really know if i want to own one like it's kind of a one-trick pony you know what i mean like it's it's a fun game you know but would i like would i like okay is this does this price not matter right so no this this is price doesn't matter without price like i want 10 games and you can say why you're picking each game okay oh this is so hard um well i'll start with godzilla black and white there you go okay that's that's the the goat right there and it's beautiful so i'll put that one not in the well put in the corner where i can see the side of that cabinet that's for sure um oh man um you guys really put me on the spot here this is tough i'm keeping my Foo Fighters LE, that's for sure. Gotta keep that. That's two. Okay, you've got to try Scott Danesi. Have you tried... You've never been in his room, right? His sensory room for TNA. No, wait. No, I don't know anything about this. Next time you're in Chicago, hit me up and I will give you Scott Danesi's number. He's built this room that the game is in and the whole room shakes and it's all lit and everything and it's got fog machines it's it's a whole it's a whole another level of pinball it's insane wow that is that is wild no i um yes i'm and i'm keeping my tna too i'm keeping my my tna uh collector's edition or whatever the the new one i got definitely i'm keeping those um it's lord of the rings making my top 10 i don't know i don't know it's a great game. I don't think it's making the top 10. I might have Elton John in there. I might have Elton John. Collection Edition, it's beautiful. And I think it's probably one of the greatest. And now, I've got to think about some other games. That's four, right? That's four. I've got to go with something fun and campy. Maybe like a Fishtails. I know you can get one for like five or six grand now probably maybe even less i love that game that's a fun game it's fun i'm gonna i'm gonna have a fishtails in there one of my early picks uh what else weird from the 90s can we do maybe a junkyard i played that a lot as a kid you want a doctor dude doctor dude's all right uh no i'll take a junkyard uh and then let's let's go with some more some more real dreamy ones hey i don't know if anybody else put junkyard in their 10 home games. No, but I like some weird ones too. Speaking of weird, Skateball. Have you played a Skateball? No. They are insanely trippy. It's from 1980. Maybe I'm not thinking the right one. I apologize. I am not. Scott, what was the one that we played in Chicago? It's weird because you shoot into a ramp and it goes into another ramp. it just like ramps everywhere okay it wasn't Skateball it was someone's listening right now and they're like you idiots yeah okay it was at Logan Arcade I know exactly where it is it's at Logan Arcade it's on the Pulp Fiction row and it was five from the aisle so I've pulled up Logan Arcade Radical it's Radical I just barely found it yeah Okay, have you ever played a Radical, Shane? I don't think I've played a Radical, no. Yeah, it's a little bit like, what's the up and down one? What, Banzai Run? Not Blackwater 2000, the one with the... Blackwater 2000 is a good example, though. Yeah, it feels a little bit like Blackwater 2000. Or 500. Blackwater 500. Blackwater 500 and the motorcycle one that goes up in the back glass. Yeah, that's not Blackwater. Pat Lawler did it. Yeah, it was Pat Lawler. His first one. Anyway, okay. Okay, Shane, back to your... Okay. All right. I had to pull up Pinside because I can't do this off the top of my head. But, okay. I got to have... I think I've got to have a Theater of Magic in there. Yes. That's a good one. And maybe Circus Voltaire I'd have, but if I already got Theater of Magic, do I want two magic-y circus games? I would take Circus Voltaire just because it has an awesome creepy factor. It is sick. Yeah. Yeah. It is super sick. Maybe a Twilight Zone? Really? Okay. Yeah, I like Twilight Zone. I think it's a bit of a drainer sometimes, but it's – yeah, if it's set up right. Like I was at this place out in Buffalo, New York. My parents live close to Niagara Falls, so right near the border. And it's called Pocketeer, if anybody knows this place. It's incredible. They've got like 80 or 90 machines, and they've got all the modern games, and they've got a really good selection of older ones. but what sets that place apart is they're all just tuned up so well and i've never played a twilight zone like that and when a twilight is like i didn't know it was possible for it to play that good with like speed and just like oh man when when it when that machine plays good it is fun oh yeah the fun game that yeah pocket care anyone's in buffalo area you got to check that out if the rumors are true and there's a twilight zone being remade are you gonna pick it up um i don't know maybe yeah i've heard about that rumor too i might i don't know i might i mean if it's getting remade there's obviously a demand for it there's people like me they're putting it in their top 10 i guess yeah um all right how is that five how many is that did i pick i don't even know that's like eight well okay no wait you had um godzilla you had your tna you had elton john and i had Foo Fighters you had Foo Fighters uh then you also had junkyard oh yeah i might take that one back now yeah see i told you no one's putting junkyard i might take that one back yes um there was junkyard there was also um it's just nostalgia for me fishtail because i do like fishtail it's a lot of it's nostalgia though these are the games that the arcade had when i was a kid you know and that's then that's like terminator 2 not my favorite game i kind of want one though but it's not my top 10 it's not my top 10 um well okay i'll take a jjp pirates okay yeah okay That's a good one. We're at seven. That's seven now? Okay. You said Theater of Magic was another one. Okay, that's eight. I did have Theater of Magic. And Twilight Zone. That's nine. Okay. Oh, for my final pick, I'm going with Pinball Circus. There's only two in the world. Yeah, okay. And the one here doesn't work in Vegas at the Pinball Hall of Fame. And I see it. It sits there, and I'd love to play it. but it's always broken. They still don't have it fixed? No, no, it's, it's broken. And, and wizard of Oz is also broken. And apparently they, they just can never be fixed. Um, I've tried to have conversations with that guy about it. And he's like, yeah, that just, it's never going to happen. So, well, I don't know. The challenge is it could be done with the right administration and the right staffing. I guess I'll put it that way. You hit the nail on the head, man. it's uh like i still go there probably weekly because it's i mean it's great and they they have like i have all the modern machines and it's fun and every time i'm there i play something weird and old because there's still like something there that i'll be able to check out but man i just i just wish that place had a little bit of vibe yeah just a little bit like Like just somewhere I can buy a drink that's not a vending machine. It has the vibe of a Vendataria or a Kmart. I'd argue Kmart has more vibe. Yeah. It's maybe the back – the shipping receiving room of the Kmart. It's more a Kmart. The loading dock. The vibe. Yeah, exactly. So yeah, but I – no. I mean I support the place and I go there and everything and they've got tournaments and stuff. that yeah but i i don't know i just um i just wish yeah i wish they just the guy like you know give a little bit away you know and get someone else in there to kind of manage the place and i know they had a bunch of techs fixing the game but i think like some of them were just kind of handcuffed with what they were like allowed to do you know they weren't having like they didn't give them free reign to like, okay, I can fix this machine. Well, I think they were definitely micromanaged on everything. That's too bad. That's actually a pretty solid time. Well, thank you. If you gave me, I guarantee you, if you said, all right, if you asked me yesterday, I'd have that on lockdown because now I'm looking for what else I need. what else do i need any let me ask you this any surprises and anything that i'm like i really should have had in there uh fishtails was a surprise for me yeah i agree it's a nostalgic one for me yeah and for me that's a little bit more like uh contra on the nes like it's not a great game but i'll still pull it up and throw the 30 guys in and go to the end of it and call it kid yep that's a great example um like another game i love from from that era that's not really very good is like i love pinbot oh because that was like the game it was everywhere as a kid but like it's bad it's bad jackpot is better too yeah but it's yeah i don't know it's there's games that i just like really just like i grew up with like world cup soccer i probably could put that i mean it's in your lineup dude so oh yeah it's one of my first games and it's been here it's almost been in my house for a decade now so yeah okay i i am surprised that there are a couple that i would i would definitely consider i mean now what you're not seeing is on the wall opposite from me is i have attack from mars medieval madness monster bash cactus and beetles ah monster bash that would be there that yes i was going to pick up from all those months yeah that's when i forgot i love monster bash yeah but like i'm just i'm just glancing through top 100 and here are a couple that i thought would have gotten some consideration from you um you know what uh guns and roses i'm a little surprised oh yeah uh it's it i don't know i don't really like the way it shoots okay i i've always said that it's an experience game it's not necessarily my best the best layout but no game brings you brings the experience of a concert in more like that. Yeah, it's got a great light show. I agree with that. And I don't know, every one I've played, I think, ever, has been kind of messed up. I don't know. I think a lot of people can go wrong with that game. That's fair. Okay, yeah, I'm kind of looking to figure out if there's any glaring ones. Actually, you know, I'm kind of surprised there wasn't some rando one from the 80s, like High Speed. I like High Speed. High Speed's cool. I like Black Knight 2000 a lot, actually. That's a fun game. Yeah, there's a bunch, man. Or like Flash, Flash Gordon. Yeah, there's a bunch, man. What about you, Josh? I don't know. Everyone's tastes are so personal, I just don't know. Oh, jeez, this isn't a politically correct thing. You're not running for office. Tell him where he's wrong. i'm not a huge fan of fishtails but i own the game for a little while and it just i love the humor of it and everything like that but i feel like it is a one-trick pony it's like either you shoot the ship and then you you go for the big monster and then multi-balls fun actually the video mode in that game is pretty video mode's hilarious in that game yes yes so yeah it's better than better than the video mode in baywatch although i do like baywatch too baywatch is kind of an underrated game it really is like that's not in the top 100 on pin side i don't think and i think it probably should be yeah i agree you know yeah i i don't think it's actually in the top 100 no i don't think it is but i mean i don't know man it's hard like they so many of these modern games a lot of them i i don't i don't like i wouldn't want a lineup of 10 modern stars and even though they're great it's just like a lot of them feel very similar you know and like yeah like and and Keith Elwin is amazing, but a lot of his games do have a similar feel, whether Avengers or Jaws. They kind of do feel similar to me. I will say I was shocked with Jaws that I feel like it shoots more safe than I was anticipating. I feel like it shoots... Once you get in the groove of it, you can really make that game flow. I was expecting more danger to it, which you can always remove posts and yada yada. You can make any game harder. Yeah. But it's definitely a fun game. Well, Jaws, I think the thing with Jaws, it's kind of like there's two inlanes because you've got that other flipper on the right, the mini flipper, and you can hold the ball any time you want. So that really slows the game down, and it's kind of like you've got a lot of that. And you've got the ball save gate thing. Oh, yeah, the over ship or close call, yeah. Yeah, you got that, and you've got the button, whatever it is, the orange button that you hit to ball save in the left out lane. So there's so many ways to get out of trouble in that game, which is like, it's fun, but also I find in tournaments that's a long-playing game sometimes. It's funny because the life ring on Jaws has conditioned me now, so I'll be playing another game. It goes to the left out lane, I hurry and slap the button. I'm like, oh wait, that's in Jaws. Every stern is like that for me Because Foo Fighters it's the same thing Like if you're with a mission You got that light on It's like oh before you drain You gotta hit that to get the like To hit one shot It's like oh at least get an extra 10 million points Or you know whatever So every stern that always happens right before Before I drain I'm hitting that button Whether it's on or not Yeah I did the same thing I was just playing Godzilla And I think I hit the Tesla strike after I drained them. That doesn't work, but it's flashing. Well, we appreciate you coming on, Shane. Is there any questions that we didn't ask that you've just been dying to get out there? Yeah, what did we miss? No. Your questions and, well, first of all, thanks for having me on, but no, your questions were better than my top 10, that's for sure. Definitely. I'm going to wake up tomorrow and be like, what the, what did I say? A fish in a junkyard? there are great games I stand by but then there's other games like I love Whitewater too that's another game I love that game you know so there's I'm just going to be thinking about it's just impossible answer but anyway no man we covered a lot of stuff I like that we talked about a lot of band pin stuff because I feel like that doesn't get talked about a lot the intricacies of that they're just kind of lumped in with other ones but I think they have a very unique license, right? Because it's such a small group of people in control of that, where that doesn't happen with movies or TV or comic books or whatever at all. And I know the story that people get tired of hearing, but it just goes to show like, so with Guns N' Roses, Eric was having a hard time trying to get Live and Let Die because that's originally a Beatles song. It's a Paul McCartney song. Oh, it's a Paul McCartney song, sorry. so they were having it's actually wings if we're getting really technical but fine but um they were having a hard time get that song and slash called up just to see the progress and he's like well we're going great except for getting live and let die and he's like give me 15 minutes and then he's on a three-way call 15 minutes there with paul mccartney and slash and he's like yeah it's not a big deal we'll take care of it right meanwhile like like all the john wick stuff like with the guns and you know all that like it's yeah it's all that stuff is so there's just so many people in red tape and different matters of opinion and all that i can't even imagine and things are constantly changing it's like the band is the band right and the management is probably the same management and like i understand that it could be with certain albums on different labels you could have trouble with the music but the thing about that is no one can really say no it's just a matter of like paying for it so you know and it's not most of that stuff is not that expensive especially when you're talking about the quantity of games manufactured yeah you know we're talking not talking about millions of units here so i think that all matters too right for for what it is so yeah i i think um i think it's cool and i think that there's a lot of room for for more band pins and i know some people don't like them if you know if you're not a music fan then i get it right but i don't know some of them are the best some of them are the best shooters too i'm gonna call you out it still kills oh yeah you're top 10 no bands i have two fighters oh okay fine you know you know what i think if they made if they made a modern if metallica is coming if there's the spike three there all these rumors if this is happening that might be in my top 10 too because i like i like metallica well enough man if there was a new layout oh my god I would be all over that if someone if Stern modernized that I'd be all about that one but even if it's the same layout just with the updated I think that could still be really really awesome to have it shoot really well I'm all about that too I agree cool thanks for coming on if people want to get a hold of you or if they want to catch you on tour, how do they do it? Oh yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Um, I don't know. Just look me up. I don't know. You can dance called Silverstein. My name is Shane told, uh, you can, you can find me on Instagram. That's probably the, the social, it's really the only social media I use regularly. And yeah. And if you want to hear my podcast, uh, where I talk a lot more about music, uh, with other singers, it's called lead singer syndrome. Awesome. Uh, content creator. Do you have one for Scott today? No. I will throw it out there. Kinesis slash ThisWeekInPinball. Colin, if you aren't checking out his stuff, he's getting more and more in the groove. He's doing really great. If you want more condensed news article style stuff, he's definitely the way to go. So check out Colin with Kinesis and ThisWeekInPinball. If you want to get a hold of us. I like his game tips. Have you seen that? Yeah. I like that. I like last minute in a tournament. I've never played this game before. I call that up real quick. He tells me what to shoot for. it's good yeah thanks bud i like also he has a song of the week for all of his newsletters as well oh i like that and so that way he's like here's the vibe i've been doing this week you know so um if you want to get a hold of us we are loser kid pinball podcast at gmail.com and you're more than welcome to send more emails about scott talking about pendretti but if you want to get a hold of us on the socials it's at loser kid pinball that's on Facebook, Instagram, X, all that jazz. Scott, send us off with your last words. You know what? You should go and check out Shane's podcast. That's my last word. And be good to each other and buy a JAWS 70. It looks awesome.