pinball wizard stuff from randos? People are like, "What do you mean?" Oh, you're a real pinball wizard, aren't you? Haha. Oh, to you? They don't They don't tell me that. Well, Kale, I don't know if that's what, but I I think the It's funny you I don't know if you're forgetting this or you just don't want to bring it up to to make anybody angry. No, I'm forgetting. It's I think but I think this is with any business. It's uh working with the city. Oh, yes. I was just thinking about that. Like getting permitting and all that good stuff. That's absolutely the worst the absolute worst of anybody trying to open up any business. I don't think it's different. I know it's the same way for everybody in all of the cities in the valley. So that's like five or six different cities that we know of people who have tried to open businesses in and everything is just like you think you can do it in two to three months and it ends up taking over two years. Right now, we are finally finally getting air conditioning, an additional air conditioning unit in Arizona that we desperately need that for some stupid reason had to require like all this permitting took two and a half years thousands of dollars. How is a business that can't weather that kind of storm supposed to survive through that kind of bureaucracy? That's so frustrating. It's it's maddening. And we know of a few arcades that are opening up right now. Some of them are just moving locations, but either way, they're having to go through the whole permitting process all over again. And I I don't know how you pay rent on a space for two years that you can't use, right? Yeah. I mean, open a business, don't generate any revenue for two years. Anybody that was that if you had an investor, they would tell you to go [ __ ] yourself. There's no way they would they would invest something like that. What kind of permit does an arcade technically fall under? Well, just a general business. Okay. There's I mean depend that depends on the city that you're in. I'm sure that changes a lot for people and whether or not you have alcohol or no I mean there's there's a lot of different factors, but we weren't trying to do any of that. I mean it was just um what would happen is you would turn in your paperwork and then they would have 90 days or whatever to get back to you and on the 90th day they'd send you a thing that says, "Oh, we want you to do this thing." it's absolutely not part of your job description. Like this should not be done by you, but we've decided that it's going to be. So then you have to pay an like a fee to make it to an extension fee. So that way they can go back and review the thing that you shouldn't have had to do in the first place, right? And then um then on the very last day of that, they're like, "Oh, we're going to charge you another fee because we took too long." What ended up happening is that they gave us our they they called me in the morning and said, "Okay, no, they didn't even call me. It was an email that I just happened to read on, you know, right after they sent it and they said, "Your permit will be approved as long as you can get a contractor assigned to the job in the next 6 hours." What? And if not, you have to start completely over. Yep. We pulled it off. Yeah. These people don't know. Unbeliev That's so [ __ ] Yeah. So, in like for example, one of the things when people are thinking like, well, what does she think that she shouldn't have to do? We're in a we're in a it's called Denell Plaza. It's a big plaza from the '60s. It has over 900 parking spaces. And most of the businesses are defunct. They're in the middle of like uh reimagining re, you know, redoing the plaza. Sounds like there's 900 parking spaces for people to play pinball. Essentially, that's what's going on. But they made me go in and do a parking assessment for every single business that was there currently or had been there previously and assess how many different type of park how many parking spaces each one should have been allocated based on the type of business that they are because you know retail you have to have so many parking spaces per square foot of business. So, I had to figure out what the square footage was. And these are businesses that maybe some of the pay you to do the city's job. How the hell is this your responsibility? Exactly. None of this is. And then I had to go in and say, "Well, this is what I think this business was the last time it was open, which I think would fall under this type of business." We had to pull up like historic records. I mean, this was was so asinine. And then they'd come back and say, "Well, how many bicycle spaces are there here? This is how many bike parking spaces there are. Well, is that for you?" You know, it just went on and on and on. And this is this is just bureauc bureaucracy. And you know, I don't I'm not sure why any of this was happening, but I wasn't in any I didn't have an option other than to do it if I wanted to get some air conditioning. Sure. And amazing that you did because you give a [ __ ] about your consumers or people that are playing. But like I feel like people that are into pinball and want to open an arcade, these aren't business people. Like nobody's sitting down to open an arcade because they went to [ __ ] Harvard or whatever, got a business degree and decided that like the most lucrative business they could open is a pinball arcade, right? Like right this is something you do for fun passion because you want to have a good time at your job, not because you want to be necessarily super rich, right? And you're paying rent and that rent goes to the city. So like why is the city giving? It's just it speaks so much of like how absolutely effed up the like zoning and like bureaucracy of like business property management is sorry that was just one example. I mean there are many more I could go but this was two and a half years of this and just an insane amount of money. So Wolfman says he went to Harvard and wants to open a pinball arcade. Well head on down to Tempe Arizona. Actually don't do that because you would have competition that would wipe you out of the water. But anyways that sucks. Uh we have chat is asking that they're coming to LA this weekend and Wolfman says to go to Acei. That's a good choice. You could also go to uh Walts. You could go to uh Revenge of You could head on down to uh the Goldfish. Any of those four would probably be a good good place to go to. Or you you could drive four hours bad arcade. Driving from LA to Tempe in 4 hours. You have a really that bad. I mean if I had to drive four hours I was thinking of San Diego. Oh, well, look, if I had to drive four hours with my choices being the uh Las Vegas Pinball Museum or Electric Bat Arcade, I think it's pretty obvious which choice I'm going to make. I'm going to go where the machines actually work. Uh, on that side tangent, have you had a cursed game? What's the game that has just been like no matter how many times you fix it, it's just still broken? Oh, yeah. It was Galactic Tank Force. Yeah, that was Galactic. Oh, American. Great. We get to talk about American Pinball. Amazing. Yeah, that game was not good. Yeah, did I mean we we talked about it all in the on the podcast and any anybody who's owned a Galactic Tank Force knows the issues with it. Uh and man, we went we got to know David Fix really really well and um I wouldn't say we got to know him really well. I'd say we talked to him a lot. We talked to him a lot. Yeah. Is the relationship good or is it stressed at this point? No, it's not a good relationship, I don't think. No. Well, that that that look you cut at him at Expo, I think, scared him a little bit. Uh, no, but it was it was a constant battle. But he did he sent us a whole new machine. I mean, if you got a lemon, that's like the way to go, right? Like, I feel like to do except the machine that you send to replace the broken one should work better than the one that you just took back. And you know, as time went on, we kind of realized with everybody else that this was the some there were software issues that weren't going to be fixed. There were hardware issues that, you know, we kind of re-engineered some of it. Um, it it wasn't a good experience, which is too bad because the game could have been really cool. I was really looking forward to it. I like MST3K. I felt like this was kind of in that vein. I was very hopeful. You know, always you want new uh new companies to succeed, do cool new things, and they just um and and I think the most unfortunate part of the exchanges with American was that they um David Vix specifically was not truthful with us. Right. Right. I think I think your chat will enjoy this story. I don't think we've ever like told it straight out, but um you know, we we had like conference calls with David Fix who promised us there is absolutely nothing wrong with this game. He's like, you're you're just this is an anomaly. And um we're like, dude, we promise you there's seriously, bro. Yeah, there's serious issues with this software. Nope. No, it it 100% works. And and you know, we were even like, "Maybe it's because nobody has their machines on as long as we do." And he's like, "No, I have a friend that has a laundry mat that that never turns his machine off." And we're like, "Man," and and I was even like, "David, like, cut the crap. There's something we know we're talking about." And so we finally just ended up selling the machine. But then, you know, Jim Belceto gets in touch with with somebody at American David Fix. I think he knows all those guys. Uh Steven uh Bowen was Steven Bowen. And he's like, I'm going to put Galactic Tank Force in Indisk. So, I'd appreciate your help fixing this thing. And and they did it. They went and fixed all the problems that supposedly weren't there. Right. Both confirming that. Yeah. But the the best part like I mean then David goes on the podcast like he's a hero. Oh, we you know we fixed all the problems. But I thought I thought you said you promised me there weren't any problems. That's so lame. We knew that we knew that we had to get this game working properly because it was going to be at indis. Like that's words out of his mouth and we're like right. What do you What benefit is it for you to make up issues on a game, right? Like there's just zero like logic to it. So for them to call you out for that being it's just so dumb on so many levels. Well, he's a he's a salesman and that's what that's what he was doing. He was he was trying to sell it and tell people there was no problem. I mean the classic snake oil salesman uh Well, it worked out really well for them, man. American Pinball now part of the top three pinball producers of of the entire nation, right? I've seen Cuphead. So Oh, you have? Yeah. Oh, I mean obviously so my my worry with Cuphead is that they're just contractually going to try to get it out the door and that it's just going to be a huge broken broken piece of of trash, but that's like a lot of their game. So how would you know the difference? Concern. I think it would also be I I would be I want to see if it actually gets released. But the thing that makes me the most sad and upset I guess about the American Pinball thing is that I offered to help them for free, right? Because I like I have found several of these bugs. I can tell you exactly the circumstances and along with some of the physical hardware stuff, I can tell you how to fix this. And they said, "No, there's nothing wrong. We don't want your help." Do you think the relationship between arcades, the home user, and the manufacturer of pinball machines has changed over the last like 20 to 30 years? Oh, it had to because most of the machines are going to the home user. Mhm. Um, you know, all of these guys have been in the industry forever that, you know, have done customer service and and, you know, designed these machines. I mean, I think they've had to, you know, change change what they're doing just as far as like customer service. I mean, you know, just because I know the guys at Stern, I mean, they've had to hire a lot more customer service people since since they're they're dealing with a lot of people who don't even know you can take the glass off a machine. Right. Right. You had to you used to all of your customer service was tailored to operators, so you could just kind of send them apart knowing that they would know what to do with it. And now you have to not only provide the parts, but the education. And sometimes people think that something is wrong when really something just needs to be adjusted in a setting. Um, so there's it's really a lot more heavily educationbased as well as you know whenever something is a it's a different relationship with the equipment when someone is using it for commercial equipment versus family time. Um, you know, I guess it's kind of it's kind of a leading question because I'm I'm to me it seems that there are pinball companies that are not living in the past, but as the internet is becoming bigger and people are having louder opinions and feedback on games and there are more homebrew people and tinkerers like there's a lot more like feedback that's occurring with the games and how certain companies are handling that feedback seems to vary from company to company, right? Um, oh, big time. Yeah, for sure. Is there is there like a standardized metric of what a company should do for how it handles issues with their pinball machines to a consumer? I think the number one thing they should do is to make sure that they have as few issues as possible before they release the game. And I think that just requires um financial planning beyond what what is expected. And I've never been on a manu on the manufacturing side. So I can't critique what anybody is doing other than time and time again we've seen that it's not enough that the games need some re-engineering or some more play testing before they get released because then once you release the game you've just got a barrage of unhappy customers. and $7 to $15,000 is a crap ton of money for basically everybody. So, it's a very high stakes um situation where you you need to not have those those negative experiences with your customer because it's going to flavor how they feel about you forever. So at that point then you have to really kind of bend over to treat the customer like super excellently because you've [ __ ] up. You've given them something that doesn't fulfill the implicit promise that you had in the sale of that game. What's the price point for when something should work no matter what? Cuz I don't disagree with you. Like my Jaws is warped and they had to send me a replacement playfield. The whole process of getting that validated was so unnecessarily unfun. Like it was so obvious that the game was messed up and that I wasn't a person that was just like confused or delusional about the ball pass being weird. And it's like I'm sending them hold on. There was a massive alarm sound going off right now to let people know that there's going to be ads in 2 minutes. Oops, somebody forgot to turn off streamer bot. Anyways, uh so the playfield was so obviously warped and it was just like come I'm like, I'm sending you pictures with a ruler on it with a light behind it and you can just this the cavernous gap between the ruler is just existing and it's like how did this get out of the out of the [ __ ] factory, you know? And I hear your point where it's just like, well, now Stern's got to suffer a four $5,000 loss or whatever the manufacturing is on the playfield, but as a consumer, it's like, yo, this is a five figure game. It shouldn't have a problem like that. Yeah. Yeah. You take this. I'm going to let the cat outside. Yeah. Our little cat, Kiko, just woke up and decided to come and join the podcast. Good morning, Kiko. Does Kiko play pinball or no? She she does not. She's not a fan of pinball. Is she a tech? I wish. She's tiny and she's cute. Um I don't I don't know what that threshold is and I don't know. you know, sometimes just like weird things happen that you know, maybe that warping happened when it's going from super humid one play, you know, I don't I don't know how that happened and I don't know I don't have a good answer for that in in that situation. And also like you don't want a a blank like you need a populated playfield because it's not your position to have to like reassemble. Can you imagine doing a playfield swap on that? I wouldn't want to. No. No. Especially for games that are complicated as a modern, you know, LCD game. I just it shouldn't you hoping that the consumer knows how to absolutely swap every mechanic on a playfield would be ridiculous. So, yeah, it was it was definitely populated. Um, yeah, but this this has to be so difficult for all the all of the manufacturers, especially Stern who's been doing it forever and has people in that company that have been doing it their whole lives to have this shift from a commercial piece of equipment to something that now, you know, 70 what is like I think 70% of it is home ownership. Yeah, it's crazy. It's amazing. Yeah. But but now and and I used to deal with these customers all the time and and I understand what they're saying. They expect to you're buying this multi,000 game. They expect to open it up and have it work perfectly when in re reality you're buying a very expensive science project and with any pinball machine and the more you play it the more you're going to run into issues you know and there's people that that just don't understand it. So, it part of it education and and I think uh you know Stern's doing a good job with Kyle and and his videos. Kyle, he used to do the great videos for Marco and and now you know he's he's super busy and doesn't have the time to do them as much as he did at Marco. Uh but the ones he's doing now are great. Like recently he did one about uh rebuilding flippers and the mechanics of that. Why you do it? When do you do it? Um, and it's it's just going to take a lot of education uh to to teach homeowners like how how to care for these things. It's, you know, it's not like an automobile. I've heard that a lot of them that would complain to me when I was selling parts. They're like, "Well, my car doesn't break down that much." Well, I was like, "Well, you're not throwing steel ball bearings at your car either, right?" You know, so any mechanical system is going to have wear and tear on it to a certain degree, for sure. And I think some of this is like um like what we experienced on our DND premium but not our D&D Pro. The orbit path would frequently send the ball straight down the middle. I mean it's a simple adjustment of one screw moving moving that ball guy just slightly and it's a very easy very quick fix. But if it, you know, we didn't have the experience to know that this is what the problem was and this is how to easily fix it. You know, if we were brand new to pinball, this was our first machine and be like, man, every time I make that orbit, the ball just goes straight down the middle. This isn't fun. Um, and then I'd get on Pinside and type about how this game sucks. And because the ball is always going down the middle or contact Stern and tell them your game's broken and then they're trying to try to explain to you that you don't need to send your playfield back and then it's just a simple adjustment on a on a piece of metal. Right. Right. And then they have to like sus out what's what. Is this a real problem? Is this not a real problem? Um so I I think there's just a lot of catchup to be done with the with the home user or the inexperienced user, right? Um you know, we're still learning new crap every day. It's very much like, you know, I see you have a a whole a wall of keyboards there. We have some over here, too. Uh, some Moogs and what have you. Um, it people understand when they buy one of these keyboards, if they don't know what they're doing, it's not going to sound right. You'll make some cool sounds, but it's not going to be, you know, Rayman Zurich, you know, you're not going to automatically be knocking it out of the park. And but people, the consumer already gets that, right? But with pinball machines, it's different. It's like, "Oh, no. It's just supposed to work, you know, and it's it's very much it's kind of like a keyboard. You have to know how to use it. You have to and and with a with a pinball machine, you have to know how to maintain it or just don't ever play it and just make it, you know, just have it look beautiful in your home, which there are people that buy. I don't understand these people, by the way, but there are people that buy these games and then they sell them on pinside six, seven months later and they have like 25 plays on I think I saw somebody on Pinball Marketplace sell a game and he was like, "I have a Jaws with 25 plays on it." And I'm just like, "How I would like I feel like I would put 25 plays on it by accidentally walking past it and bumping the start button." Like, how do you not have more than 25 plays on your game, you know? Uh, hold on, Tenious. I'll get to that. Tenacious is asking about how to learn how to fix pinball machines. And I think that's an interesting question, but I want to present a bigger picture item here, and that's something that I'm trying to do with the podcast. There's no like definitive written rules for a contract of what you're getting into buying a pinball machine. There's no written rules about what your machine should be, you know, in terms of its condition when you get it, whether it's the state of the code, the state of the hardware, and that something that is undeniably awful about the internet is that the toxicity of of being upset about a thing and then targeting somebody for that aggression is like out of control in the pinball community. And like I this is gonna piss off a lot of people, but I'm like and I do talk about D and D. I've met I've I've been critical of games, but like the toxicity that doesn't have a constructive way of sol of a solution has got to stop. Like the people making these games don't feel good going into work and then having to figure out or design a new game when everyone is just telling them that they're [ __ ] awful and that they've ruined their life because their [ __ ] ball isn't going around in orbit correctly. Like that's that's so unfair and it's so not going to help for better pinball in the future. Yeah. Well, it's uh it's not just pinball. It's every every hobby is like that now. Yeah. You know, it really Well, it's it's just because now it's a double-edged sword, but everybody has a voice now. Everybody can create a Facebook account, a Twitter account, you know, Instagram account, and everybody has a voice, and now we're able to hear them. Yeah. So it's not just a pinball thing, but you're uh and the customer is always right. Right. Um so I Yeah, but I mean I like I like this mission you're on and and I think pinball's a good place to start because it is such a a niche hobby. Well, and I think that that same thing goes true for anything. Don't ever criticize. Don't present me with a problem unless you have an offer of some type of solution. I think people have the right to be angry, but how you channel that is different. And there's a valid point of being frustrated to buying a $10,000 pinball machine and having something so broken on it that you cannot enjoy it. There should be a solution for that. But if the company's working with you and they're going through the customer service stuff, like then why are you going on pin side saying that XYZ is like the worst thing in the world and [ __ ] this game and I'm never going to support them again and like it's just I get it. Like, but like go talk to chat GPT and and get your aggression out and like then have it reformat it to be friendly. Hey chat GPT, can you make all these toxic things I said friendly so I can post them on the internet? That's like 10 seconds worth of time. There you go. Do it.