It's time for another Pinball Profile. I'm your host, Jeff Deol. You can find everything on pinballprofile.com. We're on Instagram, Twitter, and X at pinballprofile. Great Facebook group as well. Hope you can join that. And if you'd like to show your support, it is not necessary, but it's certainly very welcome. We have a Patreon, patreon.com. Don't worry, the show will always be free, but great sponsors like Lua W. and GME Law and John L., Fox Cities Pinball, Sean I., and everyone else who contributes. It means a lot to me. Thanks, and helps keep the show going. Let me tell you, this is a thrill for me because I've liked this woman ever since I met her, and we've had some funny times together and some tales we might share on this podcast. It's a pleasure to bring on Penny Epstein. Hi, Penny. How are you? I'm great, Jeff. How are you? It's great to talk to you. I hadn't seen you in years. And last October at Expo, there's Penny, there's Jeff. We got together, we sat and watched, I think, the Jersey Jack Elton John seminar. Dwight Sullivan was sitting beside us, and we had a good time. It was nice to reminisce, and always good to see you. And boy, oh boy, since then, have you been busy. You've created this little event with, oh, I don't know, Andy Bagwell and some other people. Papa 21, we will talk about that. Definitely a moment, but the reason, Penny, you are really legendary in pinball is when I play pinball against some people from Chicago, Elisa Parks comes to mind. She would tell me about her old pinball tales and being an OG with Penny Epstein and some of the others, and it made me want to know more about these stories. Give me some scoop on being an OG pinball player, because you certainly are that. Oh, my gosh. Elisa and I have been playing for such a long time together, and I was just trying to do the math. And it's probably been 30 years that we've been playing together. And I guess way back when, there were certainly not a lot of women playing pinball. And we were definitely part of the original crew of women that were playing and competing and just representing ourselves. And I'm trying to remember which papa Elisa and I first started playing at together. But we just, being women, instantly, like, bonded with each other and had great conversations, started playing, competing. And we said, hey, let's do, I think it was a, was it a pinball event? And we started playing doubles together and just playing against some of, you know, the greatest players, as I do the air quotes right now. We also started playing with the Four Chicks. and we were the first female pinball team that was competing. It was Alisa, Therese Edwards, and Carol Walker, myself, and we just were the four chicks, and we ran around, and we played and competed, and there were definitely some really funny times where we were playing. I think it was against, like, Mike Mahaffey, John Miller, Neil Shatz, and Keith Elwin, and we beat them on Frontier. Good. And they just kind of walked away. But anyway, it was a lot of fun. And we just always, you know, played and we held our own. And it's really nice to see what has changed in the pinball community for women playing and all the leagues and everything. But it was definitely much different 30 years ago. Well, there wasn't bells and chimes back then. There weren't the women's leagues. And you talk about playing at Papa. I mean, one of the fun things about Papa was, and I have a friend named Julie Dorsers from London, Ontario. You know Julie. She's one of the most pleasant people you'll meet in pinball. And when she won the Women's Championship at Papa, like, you might as well have said you won the World Championship because it was that exciting, and it was for me watching, let alone her playing. But now we've evolved into the Women's World Championships. They're going to the World Championships this year at IFP19 at Jim Belsito's place in California. It has just grown. And when I see more women playing, when I see young people playing, I'm so excited because it is such a hobby and a sport for absolutely everyone. There's no reason no one can't play. So these growth areas always mean so much to me. Absolutely. And the community is amazing from just the support, the friendships, the camaraderie, the learning. I mean, I've traveled with people who I've met at pinball competitions to like non-pinball events. You know, these are friends for life and definitely consider most of the people in pinball my pinball family. And that's just how it is. And again, for those that don't compete, I can't relay this message enough in the sense that I go all over the world to play pinball and different events. And I'm very fortunate, very lucky. Trust me, I know that. But I'll go by myself, but I'm not ever by myself because of people I know I'm going to see. I know I'm also going to make new friends and stuff. And it has nothing to do with the podcast and stuff. It's just the pinball community and the competition and getting to know people and people you never would have met before if it wasn't for pinball. And I know you have felt that certainly over the 30 years of playing pinball. Oh, my goodness. I think the first Papa that I went to was Papa 3, and that was at the Park Central Hotel in Manhattan, New York. And I was in college, and I read about it in the New York Times. It was like, oh, pinball tournament, blah, blah, blah. And I took the train in by myself. I went, and I qualified for the final and met some people. I took the train back to school, and then I had to take the train back in the morning, and it was phenomenal. And then Papa was happening in Las Vegas. I think it was Papa Four at that point. I went by myself and met a whole new wonderful crew of people. And it is like an addiction. You know, you want to play. You meet these people. You have a wonderful time and lots of stories at every event. And back in the day, to use that expression, there weren't a lot of pinball tournaments. Certainly, this Papa Championship was the one that was on the calendar every year. Different locations, like you mentioned, New York, Vegas. for many years in Carnegie in Pennsylvania, just near Pittsburgh. And the fact that it is now coming back in this new form, it has been several years, and quite honestly, through no fault of anyone's, other than a stupid pandemic that kind of shut things down for the Replay Foundation, it is now coming back. It's coming to Chicago this September 5th through 8th at Interium. What you, what Andy Bagwell and Kevin Martin and others have done to bring this back, oh my goodness are we all thrilled because this is such a important event forget that it's an actual championship it's just such a great meeting point for so many people and it has a special place in my heart that I'll explain to you in a bit but thank you for bringing this back you have to be thrilled I'm thrilled I'm overwhelmed at people's response we want to make it a wonderful event and I think the fact that it's tied to you know a benefit for Lyman is just it's that much more meaningful and I think the community knows what Lyman has done for pinball and his playing and his code and design I just think it's going to be fabulous on so many levels for those that may or may not know you Penny Penny of course the longtime partner of the late and lovely and wonderful and greatest coder of all time and also one of the greatest players ever Lyman F Sheets So this tournament is in his memory We going to talk about the benefits to 988 and some of the other things too but right now is the time for me to tell you why Papa is special to me, because as we're now listening to this Pinball Profile podcast, it was sitting at Papa. I have the picture of me in the middle, and on one side of me is Bowen Kerins, and the other side of me is Lyman Sheets. and I was like, I'm a nobody. I've never even made this podcast. I am sitting here with two of the greatest players ever. I certainly knew more about Lyman's coding and the games that I've loved all my life and I can't believe I'm actually going to, first of all, sit here in a queue waiting for these people, being able to talk to them and they're being completely delightful and that is what gave me the inspiration to do this podcast. That exact moment was like, wow, I can sit here and shoot the breeze with these legends. I had no idea. One, I want to see that picture, and two, I think that's incredible. It meant a lot to me. It was 2016, and it was April, and I didn't have the courage to do it then, even though a lot of my podcasts, I'll just whip out my phone and record like I do for my radio job, for interviewing baseball players or rock stars or whatever the heck it may be. I didn't do it then because I wanted to have a little more preparation. And again, like I mentioned with Lyman, I knew about the coding, but wow, I didn't know he won all these championships and being on the Today Show and blah, blah, blah, and everything else he did. So I wanted to be a little more prepared. So I actually built up the courage, and it happened in October that year. But I had since had Bowen on and definitely had Lyman on. We had a great episode where we talked about the creation of Tommy and stuff. And, of course, when Lyman came up to Canada here and Adam Beckers for IFPA 15, a very memorable lunch at an Asian restaurant. It was a good time with myself, Greg Pavarelli, and so many others. It was something I'll never forget. And that you're doing this tournament in his honor, helping others that may be going through some struggles, much like Lyman did. This means a lot, even more than just pinball. Absolutely. And it was also very difficult for me to come out and talk about how he passed because I really struggled with that. If you knew Lyman, you knew he was very private. But I felt this was an opportunity to help other people and bring an awareness. And even like on Pinside, people were being nicer to each other. People were sharing more. People were looking out for one another. I don't want that to be constant. I don't want that to only be when there's a tragedy. Yeah, absolutely. And you never know when somebody's going through something. And positivity certainly goes a long way. And hopefully it can help somebody. You know, the goal is to get to the next day, right? And I say that as someone who's had similar experiences with yourself. This is the year 2024, and it was 10 years ago this summer that I not only lost my quote-unquote big brother, the man I was named after, my uncle Jeff, Jeff Douglas McLeish. I'm Jeff Douglas Teolas. the guy who lived across the street from me three years older than me and he had his struggles and his life ended and then my best friend from college just months later couldn't handle whatever was going on in his mind and just I was like oh my god I say this about those people and I don't know how you feel but it breaks my heart that that bad moment that one day we just couldn't get past that because there are so many great days ahead so many things that we could have seen but I can't put myself in their shoes, and there are professionals that certainly can help these people, and that's why Papa 21 and what you're doing will put the money into the people that can help these people. But, you know, Penny, I said I saw you in October last year, and I hadn't seen you because of the pandemic, and I hadn't seen you since Lyman's passing. And, you know, I watched the funeral online. I cried like everyone else, and I still hadn't seen Penny. And after something like that happens, I, myself, I actually care more about the living and who are left behind, you know, in my case, my family and friends and all that kind of stuff. In this case with you and the others that certainly love Lyman. And so when I saw you at Expo in October, I wanted to say something, but I also just wanted to know whether it's my eyes are telling you or I'm just happy to see you. And, you know, thank God we gave each other a big hug and stuff. But I also didn't want to keep bringing this up. And that's a tough thing. But because Lyman's so loved, because you're so loved, you're going to see people that you haven't seen in a long time. And it might be a year from now. It might be two years from now. And that's the first time they're seeing you. And they're probably going to want to bring it up. And you're like, thank you. But it's still tough, isn't it? Oh, it's incredibly tough. I'm tearing up right now. You know, it's like something happens. You hear something. I think I even cried with you a little bit, but then we pulled it together. But, you know, it's just people around Chicago now know if I'm crying, it's okay. It's just what I do. You know, you have to talk about it and you have to remember the good and you've got to share stories with people to keep his memory alive. So, and that's what I'm trying to do. I mean, look at every Stern game that comes out, right? Code champion LFS and stuff like the tributes will never end when it comes to Lyman. His name will always be spoken. But again, I care about the living. I care about Penny Epstein, and I care that you're doing this for such a great cause. So, again, September 5th to 8th is this event at Antarium. I heard the Triple Drain podcast. If you haven't, please listen to it. It's one with Andy and with Penny, and we're going to have Andy on as we get closer to this event, too, to talk more about the urgency. Come on to Antarium to this, but I wanted to talk to Penny first. Bringing this to the forefront, this is a big undertaking. Papa has been gone for a long time, and now you want to bring it to Chicago and for a good cause? How did this ball get moving? It was really interesting. As we mentioned, Andy was doing the monthly tournament at Interium, and he has done a fundraiser for Paz, which is a local homeless shelter, and was very successful. And as September was coming around, which is Suicide Awareness Month, I was like, hey, would you be interested in doing an event for suicide awareness? And he was like, yeah, of course. I was like, okay, great. And we had a great turnout. I think we had like almost 200 people show up. And we raised through Facebook and they're about $15,000 for 988, which is incredible. We had raffles. It was a really great event. And then afterwards, I was like, wow, this is really cool. I was talking with Andy and Josh. And Josh was like, what if we do this every year? And Andy was like, yeah. I was like, really? He's like, okay. And then Josh was like, I think we should talk to Kevin Martin. And I was like, really? Okay. So Josh and I got on a Zoom call with Kevin, and we talked to him about our idea. Without hesitation, he was like, yeah, absolutely. So it was fantastic. And, of course, yes, I cried on that Zoom call. How can you not? Like you say, it really keeps the memory alive, you know, and so you don't want to be forgotten. And he'll never be forgotten, but it's just in the forefront always. It's a beautiful thing. It's a lovely, lovely tribute. Yeah, he loved Papa. It was his favorite tournament and loved going. I think he only missed it once because he was doing code. It was either Papa or Pinberg that he missed. He's like, I can't do this. I've got to finish this game. I was like, all right. But he just loved this tournament so much. He obviously played very well in it, won a few championships. and just it's going to be fantastic of bringing Papa back for what it is. It such a wonderful organization and what Kevin and the Replay Foundation have put together is amazing And we were like let bring this back Let bring it to Chicago Let you know make this happen and make it a fundraiser in Lyman's honor. You know, you talk about him winning the championships and stuff. And of course, special one, let you'll see a Lyman at the forefront that that legendary movie for sure. I'm not going to say the people's names because I want to protect our conversation but I remember certain championships where Lyman didn't win and he was favored to win I think special one that talks about that and somebody else won and and that's fine dandy it just the way the format of the tournament was it was maybe not highlighting the best possible player whereas new formats kind of really you know you you've got to go through the gauntlet and really show it on more than one game so to speak and the message relayed to me and I know they're listening to this podcast, I will not reveal your name, said to me, it would have been perfect if Lyman won because what a great spokesman that person would be for pinball and it probably would have brought competitive pinball more to the forefront. And he already did so much with the code, with his play, with that great stance, with his charm, his laugh and the Today Show interview and everything else he did. but he really is, you know, people talk about the quote-unquote Mount Rushmore of pinball. He's there. Do you want to put him in there for coding? Do you want to put him in there for playing? Sure, absolutely, because he's one of the best. And so what's good about this tournament as this goes on, like, I mean, it started last year with you, and why don't we do this every year? Think about this. There are going to be people that are playing in this that never met him, that never knew him, or that are learning about him. So the legacy continues. that's beautiful it's true yeah yeah it's it's funny because there are definitely so many more newer players and younger players that as you said haven't met him but maybe they've heard about him or maybe they enjoy his games and you know then they'll put two and two together yeah and and those certainly that did meet him uh certainly cherish those moments i think i don't know if i've ever told you this before i don't even know if you were there i mean it was late at night. It was in Louisville, Kentucky. It is maybe three, probably four o'clock in the morning, and there's this boardroom a bunch of us found. Elizabeth Cromwell was there, I remember. I think Doug Polka was there. I know Prav Varely was there. Definitely Lyman was there. And as you can imagine, in Kentucky, where bourbon is easier to get than water, we may have had one or two. So Four o'clock didn't really matter to us. We sat in a boardroom and solved all the world's problems. Why did I not record that conversation? I didn't, but I remember it very well and loved every second of it. Oh, that's funny. I usually went to Louisville with him, so I'm surprised. I was like, ooh, are you sure it wasn't fantastic? No, it was definitely Louisville because I remember us having, it was that long, shining-like hotel that no longer is there and stuff, those long corridors, but I remember somebody kind of coming to us and saying, hey, can you guys shut this down? It might be a little loud. Excuse us. For having a great little time. Yeah, exactly. But, boy, we're going to have fun in Chicago. Papa 21, you know how much I love Chicago. I pig out. I mean, I can't live there or I'd be, honest to God, 5,000 pounds. But between the deep dish pizza and I kind of told you about my love for popcorn And you shot down my popcorn idea because there's a better popcorn place, Double Good Popcorn. All right, give me the deets. So I work for Double Good Popcorn, which is a popcorn fundraising company, and we do lots of fundraisers for children of all abilities. So children at various schools and organizations do fundraising to help them get sports equipment, to get them to any sort of tournaments, whether it's cheer, dance, sporting, whatever it is, and they raise money. Fifty percent of the proceeds go to their organization and their team so they can meet their goals, and the other 50 percent goes to the Double Good Kids Foundation, which puts on events for children of all abilities. And it's a really great organization. We do lots of good events. coming up at the Coles Children's Museum. We're renting it out from like 9 a.m. to 1, and we're having wheelchair basketball, silent disco. Kids can paint cars. We're giving out popcorn, and it's a really good event where the children could just feel good about themselves. And working for a company like this, I actually feel very good about what I'm doing, and the popcorn is outrageously delicious. Perfect name, Double Good. First of all, it's good that you're helping these wonderful causes. And it's good that you're eating delicious popcorn, which, by the way, you also told me, being new on the job, you had to taste test all this popcorn. Sign me up. It was outrageous. And so, you know, there's only, I mean, for me, there's only so much popcorn you could eat at a time. Wrong answer. Trying sweet and savory and this. And then when we're done, they're like, all right, you could take all of this home. It's like, oh, goodness. but it was great. You need to build up that endurance. By the way, is there a tester job available? I'm in Chicago this week. I can stop by for sure. Not that I know of, but as soon as I hear of it, I will let you know. If there's ever a Canadian branch of Double Good, you just let me know. You've got your man right here. So far, we just have three offices here in Illinois. Oh, boy. Well, I am looking forward to being in Chicago this week. I'm looking forward to being in September for Papa 21. Of course, Expo is going to be a lot of fun at the 40th anniversary with what Rob Burke's doing. So many good pinball events. And you talked about playing at Papa and taking the train into New York and doing well there. You probably remember this. It was at Pinburg. And I came up to you and I said, hey, Penny, I'm about to interview your dad. Do you remember that? Of course I do. Because I'm probably not the only one who said that. At least give me that. Yes, absolutely. Like Epstein is the most obscure name ever. It's not. Because how many Epsteins are there in pinball? I know two. Stupid me. Oh, they must be related. Well, they're not. Steve Epstein was, in a way, your quote-unquote pinball father, though, because you guys always shared that kind of laugh, and stupid people like me made that assumption. It was funny. Here's a funny story about that. When I went to that first Papa in New York City, I was checking in, And they're like, oh, you're Steve's daughter. I was like, no. And every person I met was like, oh, you're Steve's daughter. You're one of Steve's daughters. And I was like, I've got to meet the Steve, you know. So I hunted him down, found him. I was like, hey, Steve Epstein. I'm Penny Epstein. Everyone thinks I'm your daughter. And we had a really, really good laugh about it. And then Roger Sharp came up to him and was like, oh, Roger, you met my daughter, Penny, you know. His best friend. Yeah. And the joke just continued, and I was working in advertising, and oddly enough, I was doing work. One of Steve's daughters was working at AOL, and they were one of my clients. So it was just the intersections of our life was really funny, and I called them dad every time we saw each other. It's like, how are you doing, daughter? Isn't that great? I mean, again, this pinball community, right? I mean, that's a funny connection, but as you were saying earlier, knowing people all over the world, and I can only imagine, that was also a nice feeling too. As we talk about Lyman passing a few years ago just the outpouring you must have received from everyone And you know that what so good about Papa 21 It's, again, about his legacy. And I can only imagine that is something that matters to him. It's just Keith Elwin, for example. Does he want to be remembered as the greatest player or a great designer? And then I translate it and I think, oh, what about Lyman? What does he want to be remembered as? And is it code? is it as a player or what is it with Lyman? Because no one knows better than you. And the one thing I do know is he's remembered fondly, whatever it is. Yeah. He just really was quite happy when he was seeing people playing and enjoying his games. That brought him a lot of joy. And he was like, well, that's a lot. He, you know, liked hearing feedback from people, I would say, the good and the maybe not so good. You know, just he took it to heart, as we know, and he would make adjustments, revise his code. But I think he would appreciate being remembered for what he contributed to pinball. And he was like a super modest, wonderful person. Yeah. And genius. You know, you don't throw that word around lightly because that's exactly what he was. I mean, games that you and I and everybody in the pinball community find perfect. I would imagine Limon would have had a hard time saying any game was perfect because he could have done just a little bit. Maybe it was this, that. I mean, the list of things he was proud of was probably endless. But I could do this, could do this. And I think I even talked to him. He's like, yeah, I could really change everything, really. Or every game I could make some changes, but there's just so much time. It's funny. I have a big smile on my face as you're saying this because he was always wanting to improve every game. And he was like, oh, maybe I'm going to go back. And I was like, it's done. He's like, okay. So he just wanted to make things incredible. Well, I know, as you mentioned, Andy Bagwell and Kevin Martin from Papa and, of course, Josh Sharpe. Josh worked a lot with Lyman for Cactus Canyon. And so we still get to see some Lyman stuff coming out in the next little while. Hopefully it's this year. If not, we know what's coming. It's just a matter of getting out there. So that's going to be another real sense of pride. And again, another example of Lyman lives on. Yes, and it's going to be great, the update. I'm just saying. I can imagine. I've got to get over to Josh's house. I want to come to Chicago and get a couple of plays on that. We'll have to see. But of course it's going to be great. So again, where do people sign up? Because they should sign up for Papa 21 at Antarium September 5th through 8th. So people could sign up. LFS.papa.org is the website for the event. And I think it's also on the IFPA site. There's a link to it. But like I said, LFS.papa.org. There's a pre-registration. There's a registration of volunteer. Here, we're also doing something exciting for this tournament. Usually, the winner of PAPA, World Championships, wins a pinball machine. But for our event, anybody who attends is going to be entered into the raffle to win the pinball machine. A brand new in-box Stern pinball machine. That's so cool. That's very, very cool. And so anyone who's in it is eligible. and we're also having the ability for people who aren't present, if they're interested in buying a ticket to enter into the raffle, they can as well. And all the proceeds of the raffle tickets will go to 988 Foundation. Tell us more about 988 Foundation. Okay, 988 Foundation, it's the umbrella company or parent company is Vibrant Health and they run the suicide and crisis helpline. So you could call, text, whatever, and you could speak to somebody immediately and get help. There are resources. They'll connect you with the right people. There are also services and programs that they run, and it's really great. And just because I'm who I am, I'm the type of person, I actually called 988. A friend of mine's child was having some issues. They didn't want to call themselves to find out what it was like, so I took it upon myself and called. and it was fantastic. They were helpful and I explained to them what was going on and they were delightful. I ended up crying with this person on the phone. Yes, I cry a lot. And it was just wonderful. And now I could actually speak to it about what it's like and telling people, they will help you. And it's a fantastic organization. 100%, absolutely. The good thing you just mentioned, Papa, 21, that raffle ticket, and you're going to have a lot of great prizes and a chance to win this new in-box Stern pinball machine. 100% of the proceeds go to the 988 Foundation. I think 20% of the papa pool, so to speak, goes to that too. So let's raise a lot of money. This is going to be good. Yep, we're trying to help a great cause to help all the great people in this world so they know you are not alone. I remember shortly after Lyman's passing, I was in disc, and I went to my local t-shirt guy, and I said, I need to make a shirt immediately. I need this kind of dot matrix LFS on my left breast and I need a big one on the back. And I thought, oh, you know, I'm going to wear that every tournament I go to this year. And I still wear it all the time now too. And then I saw Pinside do this wonderful thing where they created this and I'm like, oh, this is good. And I see them everywhere. It's very nice. And that's something too, this Papa 21 thing. There's going to be some things for sale, whether it's raffle tickets or whatever the case may be. Please do it. And you'll want these keepsakes. Trust me. This tournament aside, you and I were talking before we started this podcast about our Papa cups and things like that are legendary that are so hard to come by. Yes. I've got one in my car. You have one, too, that you use for bird seed. If you go, you've got to get this kind of stuff. It's good keepsakes. You probably want to get some and bring them for your friends and stuff. Anyway, great memories of really a legendary tournament, and I know it's going to be the same in September. Absolutely. Can't wait. Penny, the last thing I need to talk to you, and this is serious. Oh, no. This is going to be serious, so take a deep breath. Are you the official spokesperson for Texture Tuesday? Yes or no? A hundred percent yes. I love it. I'm always guessing. This is on Facebook. You'll see a post from Penny, and like, what the hell is that thing? It looks kind of familiar. You really have created a niche. Texture Tuesday queen. I try. You know, it started probably eight years ago or so, and it was just something that I did, and then it turned into a guessing game, and then it's evolved, and it's really been fun. It brings a little joy to people's day, and I'm happy to do that. You're a good person, Penny. Don't let anybody tell you any different. You're awesome. Thank you. You as well. I'm going to see you soon, and we'll be in touch. Thanks very much for coming on the program. You betcha. Thanks so much, Jeff. This has been your Pinball Profile. You can find everything on pinballprofile.com. We're on Twitter, X, Instagram, at pinballprofile. profile. We're on Facebook as well. If you'd like to show your support, that's patreon.com slash pinball profile. And thank you very much to Rodney C., to Colin M., to David M., and Stefan R., and the others. I can't thank you enough. Don't worry, the show will always be free, but your support is wonderful. I had a great time talking to Penny Epstein. Make sure you go to Papa 21 at Antarium September 5th through 8th in Chicago. You'll love it. Support the 988 Foundation. I'm Jeff Teolis. My love is alive My love is alive My love is alive