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Episode 69 - Die on this Hill: High Roller Casino

Wedgehead Pinball Podcast·podcast_episode·48m 37s·analyzed·Feb 10, 2025
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Analysis

claude-haiku-4-5-20251001 · $0.034

TL;DR

High Roller Casino defense: underrated Stern game with deep rules, multiple wizard modes, and essential company survival role.

Summary

Wedgehead Pinball Podcast hosts Alan and Alex defend High Roller Casino (Stern, 2001) against widespread criticism in their 'Die on this Hill' series. Guest Glenn, a homebrew audio designer and pinball enthusiast, argues the game saved Stern's early survival with its robust toy collection, complex rule set featuring multiple wizard modes, and casino-themed gameplay. The hosts counter negative Pinside reviews claiming the game is shallow, poorly programmed, and suffers from defects.

Key Claims

  • High Roller Casino (2001) was Stern's fourth game and one of only two unlicensed games they ever made

    high confidence · Alan states this as historical fact about early Stern production

  • John Norris left Stern because the company allowed smoking in offices and wouldn't change the policy

    medium confidence · Alan cites a TopCast interview where Norris allegedly explained his departure; Glenn expresses slight skepticism ('if it's true')

  • High Roller Casino's release was essential to Stern's survival and enabled future hits like Simpsons Pinball Party and Lord of the Rings

    low confidence · Glenn's opinion: 'this game almost saved the industry' and paved the way for other games; Alan acknowledges this is speculative ('we can't prove the negative')

  • Only about 1,000 High Roller Casino machines were made, making them rarely available on the used market

    medium confidence · Glenn states this; cited as reason machines 'don't come up too often' and why he doesn't own one

  • High Roller Casino features three distinct wizard modes: Casino Frenzy Multiball, Break the Bank (at 100 chips), and a third difficult-to-reach mode

    high confidence · Glenn provides detailed rule explanation; the third mode's specifics are teased but not fully explained in this segment

  • Keith Johnson's code work on High Roller Casino is being unfairly criticized despite Johnson being 'revered' for his later work on Lord of the Rings and Simpsons

    high confidence · Alan defends Johnson's programming legacy, noting High Roller has three wizard modes and complex rule ladders

  • The game features an 'almost unattainable' Super Duper Mega Extreme Jackpot worth 50x in slot machine multiball

    high confidence · Glenn provides specific rule details about escalating jackpot names and multipliers

  • High Roller Casino is currently ranked #262 out of 306 on the Pinside Top 100 list

    high confidence · Alan cites this ranking as motivation for the episode

Notable Quotes

  • “High Roller Casino in 2001, it almost saved the industry because nobody would have been able to buy any amazing games in the 2000s like Simpsons Pinball Party or Lord of the Rings if this game didn't come out because this game paved the way.”

    Glenn @ ~14:30 — Core thesis of the defense episode; claims High Roller Casino's commercial success was essential to Stern's survival

  • “The software was programmed by a golden retriever... it's one of the worst games ever.”

    Pin Guy Phil (review read by host) @ ~58:00 — Representative of harsh Pinside criticism; hosts counter that Keith Johnson is revered for pioneering 'deep pinball' code

  • “You got a super duper jackpot. Oh, it gets better... If you get four shots to triple jackpots you get a super duper mega extreme jackpot... It's worth 50x.”

    Glenn @ ~44:00 — Illustrates the escalating rule complexity and reward progression Glenn champions as proof of depth

  • “It's kind of got the bill of material of a loaded Bally Williams game. It's like Safecracker times one and a half. It's got Game of Thrones logic in there.”

    Alan @ ~51:00 — Summarizes the toy density and rule complexity supporting Glenn's case for game quality

  • “This game has so many amazing mechs and it's amazing... Looking at it, it's loaded.”

    Glenn @ ~21:00 — Glenn's ironic anticipation that Pinside reviews would praise the toy count, then reveals they largely don't

  • “I wonder when this review was written... I don't think the programming is something to point to as a problem on it.”

    Alan @ ~58:30 — Alan defends Keith Johnson's code against the 'golden retriever' criticism, contextualizing Johnson's later industry reputation

  • “If you don't know what you're doing on any game, none of them are very good.”

    Glenn @ ~52:00 — Glenn dismisses shallow 'horrible / walked away' reviews, implying players didn't invest effort to learn the ruleset

Entities

High Roller CasinogameStern PinballcompanyJohn NorrispersonKeith JohnsonpersonGlennpersonAlanperson

Signals

  • ?

    business_signal: Glenn argues High Roller Casino's commercial success (despite its 2001 release struggles) was instrumental to Stern's continued existence and ability to fund later flagship titles.

    low · Glenn: 'this game almost saved the industry because nobody would have been able to buy any amazing games in the 2000s... if this game didn't come out because this game paved the way'

  • ~

    sentiment_shift: High Roller Casino occupies position #262/306 on Pinside Top 100, indicating severe community underappreciation despite Glenn's advocacy for the game's hidden depth and mechanical value.

    high · Alan: 'the game is currently rated number 262 out of 306 on the Pinside Top 100 list. That's a bunch of negative reviews of this game on the internet'

  • ?

    competitive_signal: Game suffers from accessibility/difficulty curve issues; casual players unable to understand rule structure feel the game is 'too slow' and 'boring,' while advocates argue this reflects operator setup failure not game design.

    medium · Flipper Bingo review and Glenn's counter: 'If you don't know what you're doing on any game, none of them are very good'

  • ?

    design_philosophy: Craps mode on High Roller Casino reduced to simple stand-up target mechanic, stripping away the excitement and multiplayer dynamics of actual casino craps play.

    high · Glenn acknowledges: 'on High Roller Casino, all you do is hit a stand-up, and either you win or you lose, and that's it'

  • ?

    design_philosophy: High Roller Casino represents an 'all hands on deck' design approach with multiple Stern personnel (John Borg, Joe Balser, Keith Johnson, Dwight Sullivan, Kevin O'Connor) contributing to compensate for John Norris's early departure.

Transcript

groq_whisper · $0.146

0:00
You signed your real name? Of course I did. If you believe in something, you sign your name to it. Alright, I'm gonna tell you right now. I ain't crazy.
0:08
This is the ground you'll die on. Are you sure? Oh my god, are you serious? Son, people can see you. I don't tell you what to do with your money. Don't fucking tell me what to do with mine, okay? I'm not as dumb as you think I am. I will defend myself.
0:28
He means it, sweetheart. Well, that's because you're an idiot. I will fight and win because I am the most intelligent. You sure about that? I got something I want to say. Well, all you motherfuckers think you know who Teddy Powers is. Well, I'm here today to tell you all you don't know shit. Oh, I give up. You're going to get yourself killed, and this time I won't be able to save you. I make you laugh. I'm a clown. I amuse you. I'm here to fucking amuse you. Come on. Don't bullshit me. Go ahead and go. But I'm not going to stop yelling because then that'll mean I lost the fight. So please leave a key under the mat. I love you all very much. Peace out.
1:09
Serenity now. What you've just said is one of the most insanely idiotic things I have ever heard. At no point in your rambling, incoherent response were you even close to anything that could be considered a rational thought. Everyone in this room is now dumber for having listened to it. I award you no points, and may God have mercy on your soul. Okay, a simple wrong would have done just fine, but this makes no sense.
1:41

“Go talk to the guy that set the game up and ask him to take the training wheels off and let you play this game with a challenge.”

Alan/Flipper Bingo review paraphrase @ ~1:04:00 — Addresses criticism of lenient game settings and poor operator setup affecting perception of game quality

Alex the Waterboy
person
Lord of the Ringsgame
Simpsons Pinball Partygame
Safecrackergame
Keith Elwinperson
Gottliebcompany
Pinball Hall of Famelocation
Next Levellocation
Sawgame

high · Alan details the extended design credits and notes personnel shifts mid-project

  • ?

    community_signal: Glenn's persistent outreach to Wedgehead hosts over months demonstrates passionate community advocacy for overlooked games; serves as model for 'Die on this Hill' guest recruitment.

    high · Alan: 'Glenn has been really just badgering me incessantly for months now to get on the show to talk about this game'

  • ?

    personnel_signal: John Norris's departure from Stern due to smoking policy conflict represents early attrition of talent critical to High Roller Casino's design phase.

    medium · Alan cites TopCast interview where Norris allegedly explained departure; notes subsequent crew (Johnson, Borg, Balser) had to 'pitch in to get this game finished'

  • $

    market_signal: High Roller Casino production limited to approximately 1,000 units, resulting in rare secondary market availability and preventing Glenn from acquiring his own machine.

    medium · Glenn: 'there's only been like 1,000 of them made' and 'they don't come up too often because they're so well-loved' (sarcastic implication)

  • ?

    product_concern: Multiple reviews cite mechanical defects and reliability issues: 'defects that have you all the time during play,' 'too cheap' feeling, ball missing problems, and playfield durability concerns.

    high · Flipper Bingo review mentions recurring 'defects' and 'ball missing' during play; criticizes game not 'built to last'

  • ?

    technology_signal: High Roller Casino introduced miniature dot-matrix display on playfield, establishing technology Stern carried into later eras (referenced as 'their signature miniature DMD').

    medium · A. Sojivari review (read): 'the first Stern game with their signature miniature DMD on the playfield'

    • Hello, everybody, and welcome to another episode of the Wedgehead Pinball Podcast. My name is Alan, host of this podcast. Join once again in the basement studio of my co-host, Alex the Waterboy. How are you doing? I'm doing pretty good today, Alan. How about you?
    1:56
    We've got a little fundraiser we're doing. Oh, yeah? Yeah, and that's going pretty well. It's going pretty good. It's going pretty good, but we're not quite sure if the Waterboy is going to get to make it out to Pentastic or not. Right, because we're not quite to 100%, right? We made it halfway, so one of us is going. One of us is going for sure. But in case y'all are interested, I'm sure you already heard by now, but Waterboy created some very special stickers that will be sent out to the first 25 people that send us $10 or more to our coffee fundraiser to get us to Pentastic on the East Coast. We're looking to meet our friends out there. And that website, in case you want to donate, is ko-fi.com slash Wedgehead Podcast. But that's all we're going to talk about right now because we got a great episode today. Yeah, great episode, great game that we're going to be talking about. Just like all the games on our Die on the Hill series, in case this is your first time you listen to this segment of the show. It's a segment where we get guests on to talk about some of these great pinball machines that everyone seems to hate on for some reason. And today it's High Roller Casino, which is a pinball machine released by, at the time, the new and fledgling Stern Pinball. January of 2001, it was their fourth game and one of only two unlicensed games that they ever made. It was mostly designed by former Gottlieb designer John Norris, who designed games like Diamond Lady, which is a personal favorite of mine. Robo War, Bad Girls, Lights, Camera, Action, first game with modes. Cactus Jack, Super Mario Brothers, Stargate, Waterworld. and many more from that kind of late 80s to the mid 90s. John Norris made some good games when you list them out like that. Yeah, John Norris was the man. He was also concurrently writing software for most of the other Gottlieb premiere games at the same time, even the ones that he didn't personally design. He was like the lead programmer. He like literally did both for that company. It's crazy. And on crazy deadlines. He went over to Sega after Gottlieb closed and he wrote software for games like X-Files and South Park. His time at Stern would end up being pretty short-lived. And the story that I heard him tell about why was that had to do with the fact that starting at the time, around 2000, there were employees who were still allowed to smoke inside the offices. And John just couldn't handle it and quit since they wouldn't amend their company policy at the time, which I thought was pretty funny. That's a sad story if it's true. It's a bummer. Well, he said that on his old TopCast interview, so no reason to doubt it. IPDB says that Keith Johnson took over when John Norris left, but Joe Balser and John Borg all get co-design credits too, since I think they all had to pitch in to get this game finished and ready to manufacture. Dwight Sullivan, Keith Johnson, and Lonnie Ropp are also credited as the programmers, and Kevin O'Connor and John Yausey are credited with art. All around, all hands on deck type of game, but the reason that we're here today is because the game is currently rated number 262 out of 306 on the Pinside Top 100 list. That's a bunch of negative reviews of this game on the internet, and we have a very special guest joining us on the show to tell us why everyone else is wrong and why High Roller Casino is actually great. So Glenn, welcome to the show. How are you? Hey, fellas. Thanks for having me. I'm feeling good. Hope you're good. Is this a record? Is this the lowest rated game to get defended on the Hill? No. Oh, we get some real pieces of shit on here. What was the lowest one? We had one that was... Hey, I can hear you. I'm right here. what was the lowest one what do you think it is um yeah because i always i just assume it would be popeye but that's not accurate no man i you know i can't just have something i think it was orbiter one orbiter ones oh yeah because that's like bottom of that's like in the bottom five or something like that yeah but glenn give the listeners who are you what you doing here well my name is glenn i'm just kind of like a super pinball nerd and uh i have some audio experience so i make a lot of audio stuff i did we do it did a homebrew i do a lot of podcast theme songs and parody stuff i just like being part of the discussion once in a while too and i love this game so i wanted to come on here and and rep it yeah glenn's being a little bit coy here but he's also what you all may have seen of his work in particular is the saw homebrew machine yeah that was glenn that was glenn well i did the audio i didn't do much else i wrote a couple rules but yeah we had a team of four of us that uh joe i was just yeah i was just a part of this whole game that's sick that's a very very well polished homebrew heavy-handed wreath theme right is that a i can't remember what that has for a layout it's a whirlwind but yep we took a lot of liberties in changing it so that it you know even even the spinning discs all operated individually we added a nice six ball trough lcd screen new speaker system full rgb led light i think like 600 led lights i can't remember i didn't put those in you're giving guns and roses a run for its money no no have you seen how small some of those lights are gnr lights are insane it's like fiber optics but we're not we're not here to talk about your really cool homebrew you are a part of or guns and roses if someone wants to defend that thing we could talk about that but we're here to talk about a high roller casino which like we said this is an all hands on deck stern's trying to prove themselves and they put out this game tell us about high roller casino glenn tell us about why it's great well a lot of people will blame popeye for like almost killing the industry and i want to say in 2001 high roller casino it almost saved the industry because nobody nobody would have been able to buy any amazing games in the 2000s like simpsons pinball party or lord of the rings if this game didn't come out because this tree paved the way okay you can't say that it didn't i mean it was first it did come out before them yeah it's true and stern's stayed in business you know we don't know what would have happened if this wasn't the game that came out yeah we can't prove the negative we don't live in the world where this game doesn't come out but you're saying it's possible that this game doesn't come out and stern isn't here anymore correct okay prove me wrong okay fair enough some might say an arguable point survived despite this game but you're taking the hotter position i was saying they survived because of this game which i respect you might be asking yourself what kind of game do i want do i want a game that has just deep code thousands of shots or would you rather have four shots and 15 toys people like loaded games i'm listening Exactly, because everybody wants toys and mechs, and I'm sure all of the Pinside reviews are going to say, this game has so many amazing mechs, and it's amazing. Yeah, that's what you'd think. Looking at it, it's loaded. It is loaded. So let's go over some of those toys and mechs. You've got a spinning roulette wheel. You've got a slot machine with a state change lift ramp. Everybody likes the state change stuff. I mean, Elwynn basically stole it from this. You've got... It's true. He's a known thief. Keith Elwynn, known thief. A working articulating lever on the slot machine. You can barely see it, but it's there. It's the small details. I love that lever, man. I know. It is good.
    8:57
    It's all in the frame. Hey, something's playing out. And just next to it, you have a dot matrix display that tells you what you got for your slot pulls. All right. So then you got a bank of four drops. You got a spinner. You got a physical ball lock. you have a cashier diverter which you don't really notice it but it's there yeah because it looks like a long part of the ramp it runs the whole length of the ram no no no he's talking about this on the left side of the plate oh yeah that's right here okay i got you yeah that can feed the ball to the habit trail or to the left in lane you also have a center shot that's got this weird stick diverter i've never seen one like the longest diverter in pinball it has to be it's like 12 inches long yeah it looks like a really long shadow furba it's bizarre the first time i played this game i did not realize that was a diverter and i was like sitting there and i'm like wait how do i get to the roulette wheel other than the plunge and then i was like oh my god the whole fucking thing moves the whole thing moves yeah and also you have a back box game for your roll and win a mini game which everybody loves on the uh the small game safe cracker safe everybody loves a safe cracker nobody talks about it on this it's kind of like a poor man safe cracker except for it's better and bigger so it's actually kind of like a rich man safe cracker better in every way yeah better in every way okay okay so what about the theme glenn are you uh are you a high roller i want you guys to know that i got married on the strip in vegas in front of what is now the hit the pinball hall of fame my wife doesn't like when i tell people i got married in front of the pinball hall of fame but right in front of that sign it's like a block away netting and so russ i can't help noticing you're taking more of an interest in the fair sex lately. In 2006, casinos looked like this. They're pretty charming. I mean, it's kind of the way that my heart, you know, feels when I see this play field. I remember the dingy smoke filled casinos that I was in when I got married. Well, it's kind of interesting. We were talking about it before we were on the air a little bit, and it's got this like very dated, cheesy art package on it, but it's good. Like it's not like we just recently did an episode about world poker tour and that is bad it does not look good it hasn't aged well but this one's like i own that game too the game's pretty fun but the the art package on it is maybe not the best or maybe all appreciated i prefer this for sure dude this one's like as far as the art package neon and bright bold colors it's all like the hand-drawn cartoony stuff and it's not off-putting like some bad hand-drawn stuff can be. I just like how this thing looks, honestly. Yeah, it's not bad. What do you think, Glenn? I think it's theme appropriate. You've got the chips, you've got the dice, you've got, you know, the slot machine and the cache, and then you've got the little area near the flippers that shows you which of the games you still have yet to complete in order to get to, like, the mini wizard mode. So you want to go over those? Yeah, tell us about the rule set here. Yeah, get into it. So there's, well, first of all, It's a mode-based game, kind of. Like each casino game is a mode which I think is cooler than most people think because you have to kind of like time your opportunities well on this game You can just go balls in on I going to play blackjack If you got seven you going to lose The dealer going to beat you Don't shoot the left orbit when you have seven in blackjack. I had no idea it actually mattered. Yeah, so you got craps, you got roulette, you got high-low, you got blackjack, you got poker. And if you play any of these games and you win, you get chips. And if you lose, you have to play them again in order to collect that game. And once you collect all six of the games, you get a chance to play the Casino Frenzy Multiball. This is a big payoff!
    12:43
    Roulette Jackpot! One Jackpot! How is the Casino Frenzy Multiball? How does it rank amongst casino-themed pinball wizard modes? Is it as good as Casino Run and Jackpot? Actually, it's not. It's an okay multiball. Okay. It's not bad, but... Casino Run is amazing, by the way. Like everyone, for all the listeners, if you haven't played Jackpot, Casino Run is one of the coolest wizard modes, I think. Yeah, the one that we have on location, it's really hard to get to because that saucer kicks down the middle and you just can't save it without tilting. So we all avoid Casino Run, which is unfortunate, but...
    13:21
    I love Casino Run. All right, so here's another thing. So if you're playing roulette, you have to like activate the number of bets you get by getting pop bumper hits. They just kind of pile up. Once you get one pop bumper lit, you can shoot it up the middle, feed the roulette wheel. And if it lands on the right color, because you get red, black, and green, if it lands on the right one that you have the bet placed, you win. But if you lose, you got to do it again. But you can wait until you have all the pop bumpers lit and guarantee that you win that game.
    13:50
    So just like when you go to the casino and you just cheat to win. Well, there's another form of cheating in the game, too. Yeah, there is a cheat game insert I'm noticing here. So, yeah. So if you hit five ramps, so you got the slot machine ramp and you got that middle ramp. If you hit five ramps, any combination that lights cheat game, which means the next game you play, if you lose, it just says you cheat and you win.
    14:13
    And they don't kick you out of the casino for that. I don't get it. It's fine. Sometimes they want to bring the pinball to the casino, not the casino to the pinball. I like this, Glenn. So then high-low, if you get the in-lanes at the bottom, you can shoot the right orbit. Or you can wait until you also have a poker hand. And so then you can play both games at once. And what you do there is it says high-low. It'll be like, oh, here's a four. You want to go higher or lower than a four? You go, oh, I'm going to go higher. And it's like, eight. Would you like to continue or would you like to just win the game? You're like, oh, I'm going to quit. You only get two chips then instead of like five or ten. But you at least get to progress towards your wizard mode. ah but you can you can collect more chips if you want to keep going and press your luck one of the other wizard modes in the game is uh when you get to uh break the bank which is when you collect 100 chips so it's something that kind of rolls on in the background Oh, nice. Two wizard modes? Nice. Dude, it's like Safecracker, but better. There's a third. Whoa, okay. No. Yeah, it's not very well known, and I've never gotten to it because it's really hard. I'll explain that later. A little tease for later on. You guys got a commercial you can put right now, and then people stick around and get their coffee.
    15:43
    Luck be a lady tonight. everybody knows right so i'm gonna i'm gonna just kind of get ahead of what's probably the most common criticism of this game the game of craps is like the most exciting game in any casino you guys play craps it's the only game that i really like playing oh no i i used to play poker but i i got i got weary of poker because the only time i could do it with my really low chip stack was to play in tournaments, and then those would go for many hours. And so I kind of got weary of playing poker because otherwise I get – if I go and play straight up cash with poker, I'm throwing $200 or $300 on the table, and guys have $15K out on the table, and they'll just bully you out of hands. Or when I do bet, they know that you have something decent.
    16:29
    But I do like playing craps. Craps is fun. You get like 10 people at a craps table, and you're all betting, and someone rolls, and everybody wins. It's like the most exciting thing you can do in the casino. Well, on High Roller Casino, all you do is hit a stand-up, and either you win or you lose, and that's it.
    16:46
    So they kind of took the best table game here and made it into a single stand-up win-lose shot? Yeah. Yeah, so either you win or you lose, or you have to hit it again in which you might win or lose that next time. So it's kind of, you know, choose your own adventure kind of thing.
    17:04
    Is there a cool animation when you win? Is there a lot of fanfare or is it slip by unnoticed? Well, you know what happens when you hit a stand up on the lower half of the play field. You don't really look up in that situation. But yeah, like, you know, it's the least of my favorite of the games. And the other one is the slot machine. So you shoot the slot machine and you load a ball up in there and then the lever articulates and you get a little sound, you get a light show. and then it tells you whether you won or lost, which makes no sense, because sometimes three completely different objects can be a winner, and sometimes three similar objects are losers. I don't get it. I don't care. I just want to know if I win or lose. Well, that's like playing a modern slot machine anyway, man. All the lines and stuff, they're crazy. I never know when I win or lose. I love how just the slot machine on this thing has, like, more moving parts than a modern Stern Pro has. God, I know, dude. It's got so much shit going on just to have a slot machine in there. Yeah. Yeah, dude, and four drops, and you got the spinning roulette wheel, and you got multiple diverters and stuff. And two giant dice in the back? Oh, yeah. Do those dice do anything? Are they just there to prevent stuck balls? I think that they ordered a bunch of those rearview mirror dice that hang on your car, and they just put them in the back. Wait, are they foam? I think so. They are? They do look soft. They look supple in this picture we're looking at. I thought the photo we were looking at, those were mods. I didn't realize that they were real. That's why I wasn't going to bring them up.
    18:35
    All right, Glenn. Well, you own this game, right? How long have you owned this game? No, I don't own this game because there's only been like 1,000 of them made. Oh, my God. And so I owned World Poker Tour. Okay. That's a good game. But I never owned this, and I would like to. But, yeah, they don't come up too often because they're so well-loved. I'm sure that's it. That's probably it. I'm sure that's it. I mean, we got a bunch of reviews I want to read you here, and I'm sure that's what's going to come up. I haven't talked about the slot machine multiball rules yet because this is up there in slot machine multiball.
    19:11
    What you have to do is you shoot the slot machine and then the ramp lifts and lowers. And like it keeps it once you lock three balls in it, it starts. And so then you have four shots lit for jackpot. If you hit any of those a second time, it's a double jackpot. If you hit him a third time, it's a triple jackpot. Okay, now this is where it gets good. If you get a triple jackpot and then you shoot the slot machine, it gives you a super duper jackpot. I like that. Is that the name of it? That's what it's called, a super duper jackpot. Okay. Okay? If you get three shots to triple jackpot and you shoot the slot machine, you get a super duper mega jackpot. Oh, it gets better. Oh, my God. But if you get four shots to triple jackpots. Tell me, Glenn. Tell me. You get a super duper mega extreme jackpot. What? It's worth 50x. Oh, yeah. Okay, this is like, yeah, you're like, that's how I want to play the game. You're telling me there's a super duper mega extreme jackpot? Yes.
    20:18
    So if you're playing this thing, is that what you're going for? Is that all the points? It's almost unattainable. No. I can't do it. So they say. So is that like the hidden wizard mode? Is that what you're talking about? No, it's in the rules. No, okay. So there's one other thing. So the back box game, the roll to win. Yes. The back box game. So it's kind of like a safe cracker where the little, it's like a board game where the light goes around in a clockwise direction. And it's got like 10 or 12 awards in there. and so basically when you shoot it up the middle when the diverter is pointed to the left hence the purple light in front of it it kind of stages the ball like on game of thrones on the right where the ball lock is for blackwater multi-ball right and then it tells you to look up and it has two dice that roll and it says pick either the left or the right one and then you progress just as many times as the dice are to a like a mystery award so you can kind of pick which of the two awards you want but if you travel all the way around come back down to the bottom that says start you start super pops and then if you travel all the way around a second time you get like super loops and then another time you get like super spinner spinner or something but the fourth time you get what's called super surprise okay what's the super surprise glenn yeah do we want to know ball multi-ball i'm not even sure the rules it doesn't say in the rules what the rules are how so how many times you gotta fucking get some good dice rolls to get around that thing four times do you see on the right side of the lower part of the play field there's a stand-up yeah It's kind of next to your chip count. You have win chips? No, above that. Oh, the special extra ball one. Yeah. So every time you shoot it up the middle for a roll the dice, every time you collect that, you got to shoot that stand up again, which is dangerous. But then every time you go around the board, you got to shoot it an extra time. So it gets almost impossible to get all the way around four times. All right, let's roll and win. Use the flippers to decide.
    22:12
    I'll take them any way I can get them, just like my women. This is exciting. Actually, yeah, I'm learning some stuff about this game I never learned before. This is a good die-in-this-hell episode. You seem to actually have looked at the rules beforehand, unlike some of our guests. Well, Glenn has been really just badgering me incessantly for months now to get on the show to do this. Get on the show to talk about this game. He's been real hot about it. That's how I usually— He's in that time to research, it sounds like. That's how I gauged the guest. I was like, do you love this game or not? Because it's like, if you keep reaching out to me, I know you love this game, and you're definitely going to be on the show. I want to go play this thing, dude. So I've played this extensively recently because we had another friend, Tyler, was on the show recently, and he had talked about doing this potentially. And the only one we have that I know of anyway is out at next level here, and it was just set up very, very friendly. And I think I got like six extra balls. I got a ludicrous amount of extra balls on it. yep that was my big gripe i was like this game's going on too long i didn't have glenn there to explain the rules to me so i felt like i was making no progress and that's probably because i wasn't like i was probably just shooting everything when it doesn't you know when it didn't make sense to shoot it yeah you're probably just kind of in the same multi-ball over and now i want to go back though yeah so during during the the slot machine multi-ball that's a really good opportunity for a friend to be standing next to you because the the dmd does tell you which shot is at 1x, 2x, or 3x. It's kind of like Game of Thrones in where it shows you your combos kind of in the same way, like what the multiplier is for your combos. So this game, it's kind of got the bill of material, a bomb of a loaded Bally Williams game. It's like Safecracker times one and a half. It's got Game of Thrones logic in there. It's designed by every member of the team at Stern. There's no way this thing could fail. It saved the company per Glenn. Yes. unfortunately, not everyone feels that way. Yeah, Glenn, we have we're going to hear the other side of this argument. And I want to we're going to alternate reading these reviews. I want to warn you the first one very short but I think he makes his point very clear Okay Five Balls Five Cents says it horrible I tried it twice and walked away Gambling is a very serious business. Well, I mean, if you don't know what you're doing on any game, none of them are very good. Maybe he needed two more balls on it. Five Balls Five Cents, you know.
    24:39
    The next one is A. Sojivari. He says, the first Stern game with their signature miniature DMD on the playfield. It continues with the same plastic feeling like the previous games, but it does have more interactive toys. The art is mediocre at best, and the sounds match the graphics. The playfield design isn't all bad. It actually has some pretty fun shots. Still, I can't shake the feeling that something's missing. I keep telling him he's going to pierce himself shut one day. What do you think's missing, Glenn? Yeah, your gameplay. Your ability to play pinball. because if you can't get deep enough into this game you're not going to enjoy it i don't know what you could say is missing from this thing short of having a full fucking craps table underneath the playfield or something it's got so much going on for toys well yeah he says it has you know has a lot of interactive toys and he says the playfield design i like the back end a compliment it isn't all that bad and it's actually has some pretty fun shots it's the way he's writing that review i do like it when the reviewers go in like they're like i'm trying to defend this thing and you're like no you're not you could just like it yeah it's great pin guy phil says one of the worst games ever it should have been a sega the software was programmed by a golden retriever the play actually makes no sense it should have been a good game it is an interesting looking play field but after the second ball you'll wish it was over thanks to that defective plate they put in my head dude golden retrievers and catching strays like i thought people like golden retrievers even golden retrievers will fetch a ball more than twice come on come on where really does your iq go up to well i'm like isn't this thing i'm assuming it's programmed by keith johnson yeah it is you're like i wonder when this review was written and you were like i don't think the programming is something to point to as a problem on it here's the second time we've got we've run into this because we did world poker tour which was also another Keith Johnson program game. Keith Johnson is revered by pinheads around this time, as Glenn mostly said, because this game walked so that Lord of the Rings and Simpsons Pinball Party could run. He was basically saying that those Keith Johnson coded games that everyone seems to love, sort of the godfather of modern pinball code. Yeah, the deep pinball. He did it on this game. There's three different wizard modes. There's three different ladders to climb. So saying the software was programmed by a golden retriever. I mean, I guess America's most popular dog, I guess. I was going to say this is coming off, depending on when this was written, you know, Air Bud could still be hot. And maybe that was a compliment. I hope so. He said it's one of the worst games ever, though. I mean, that's the first line of this review. I forgot about that. You forgot what show you're on right now? I mean.
    27:18
    Okay, next review, next review. Flipper Bingo says, it looks nice when you see it, but it's too cheap when you play it. The gameplay doesn't interest me that much, and the defects that have you all the time during play aren't nice. Hmm. You've got more than once a ball missing, and it's just getting on your nerves. Shame it isn't better, but this pen is just too weak to keep people coming back for more. The fun part of the gameplay is actually that you can play very long with one coin, but that's the only fun part because the game will not interest me for a long time. Because you can play quite long with one coin, the game's getting rather quickly boring. Looks nice, I think, but it isn't built to last. too cheap and too slow and that's not all shame to give stern such a low rating fortunately they started to make much better pins after this one oh i missed that sorry what sorry so this is flipper bingo talking yeah let me explain something to you go talk to the guy that set the game up and ask him to take the training wheels off and let you play this game with a challenge every game needs not only that too cheap to play you got to bring some cash to the table when you're playing high roller casino you can't just show up with a 20 bill it's true you're the cheap ass true it's true he's trying to put in he's trying to put in single coins and play for a long time yeah bet real money yeah let's let's put let's have some challenge to this game get a friend it's more fun to compete throw down some real cash yeah when you're playing craps your odds go up when you have multiple bets on the table come on step it up yeah we need some real high rollers here. Fair enough. Octon Boy says, as cool as the wheel is, I thought it hurt the flow of the game. Really didn't get into it. Not a game I would play any more of. Well, you're just not going to feel joy in the world then. I'm sorry. That wheel, when it tells you two options, you're like, oh, do I want a good thing or an even better thing? But wait, what is my goal? What is this helping me progress toward? You're like, all right, you get that dopamine rush. You're like, I'm going to get my hundred chips. It's going to happen. This is the game. It happens.
    29:17
    nci 1109 says owned the game for about three years tried to play it many times but never really cared for it seemed very repetitive call outs were annoying and i never got into it i tried to like it because of the gambling theme but just didn't there you go you little heathens owned it for three years and tried to like it he's like i love the theme i love gambling but i just didn't care about the game that's a bummer what was that guy's profile name insanity In-C-I, just the letters. Might be insanity.
    29:51
    Yeah, the vanity plate for insanity. I'm going to just play this game for three years, and maybe I'll like it. You know what? Just go with your instincts there, buddy. Let somebody that will cherish this game and take care of it own it. Yeah, I know somebody that would kill for one of these. I feel like these Keith Johnson games, for the people that like them, both World Poker Tour, again, gambling, and then this, gambling, High Roller Casino, So Keith, I guess, sort of took over the lead design role after John Norris left. I think John Norris had pretty much finished the play field. It's more or less his, but that Kiefer kind of kept reiterating on it and finalizing the game. And then he obviously did the programming. But I think what's interesting is both of these, it seems like the big criticisms are people think the game is simple and boring. Oh, this is easy. I saw this on TV. and they don't ever seem to understand the depth of the rules that they're given on these games that does seem like a problem with keifer's code at the at these games where it's like because nowadays it's like i'll step up to a brand new game and i'll be like oh no no there's too much going on but i'm like aware of it i'm like i'm not gonna like this game because there is too much shit that i don't know how it works it's funny that these games are sort of the precursors to that yeah and yet people are like these games are simple and you're like that's not true at all i wonder if it's like because the depth wasn't hand like you're not like on a modern game it's like you're choosing the modes you kind of are made aware they make a much bigger deal out of like the differences in multi balls and stuff so you're kind of aware like when you play a modern game you're like oh there's a bunch of different shit going on whereas something like this if you're just kind of like clicking double clicking through the animations and shit you might have zero idea what you're doing that's kind of how i played it the last time i've got to give him a little bit of truth on this like the call outs could be better like the ones that are there are great i just wish that there were more because some of them are a little on the inappropriate side but i mean oh i bet yeah i bet this time period i bet yeah so like like specifically like toward women like there's some there's some call outs in here that you wouldn't put in a game today but i can't believe they did that back then but you know i was 20 years old when this game came Times have changed, mostly for the better. I don't know a lot of that stuff, but you will see this. I mean, you'll see that in pinball history. The next review we got, Viper VS says, I personally don't like the feel of these early sterns. Does not feel even close to as good as the older Bally Williams games. All right, just a little pause here. That's true. This guy's with us. You take care of him. Like the early Bally Williams games had a better, much better. They all feel different. Yeah, okay. I like Waterboy's tact here. On paper, this game looks promising. Two major playfield mechanisms, roulette and slot machine, drop targets, four slingshots, ball locks, spinner, etc. Art quality was one of the worst I have seen. Print quality on the playfield, and especially on the cabinet, was pretty bad. Did not like the back glass quality either. Washed out colors and bad contrast. Looks like it was printed on a plain copy paper. For a 2001 pin, you would expect better sound quality too. Ooh, we're going to have an expert that will get to weigh in on this. At least the rule set was decent. You can see that this was a low-budget build. But then again, it does not cost much today either. So if you're not picky getting it for your first pinball machine, why not? So I was in college when this was just about to be. And as an audio engineer at Madison Media Institute, I enjoyed making MIDI versions of songs. So like that hi-hat, that like the ride cymbal, that kind of just, it kind of grades on some people. But to me, that reminds me of my college years. But I get it. It's not the greatest sound quality, but it's of an era. And they had to leave room for all the code. So some CPU needed to be saved. Right. Keith's like, no, fuck it. We're going to have the same looping drum pattern. Because he's like, we need three wizard modes. Yeah, well, that's a Keith staple, isn't it, dude, is to have multiple wizard modes. No one's going to see one of them. And he's like, doesn't matter. It needs three. Yep. He's like, this is for some kid named Glenn out there. He's in high school right now.
    34:02
    And I do apologize. I did not bring up in my on the paper spreadsheet of four slingshots because clearly this game has four slingshots. And I didn't pick up on that like this professional reviewer did. Yeah, that is kind of wild to have that. I mean, this thing really that's why it's also funny. He's like, you can see this was a low budget build. And you're like, can you? Yeah, a lot of shit going on in it. Man, you see art hide a lot of this stuff for people. if they believe that the art is somehow bad or they feel like they will they will go this game is low quality and that's the importance of art on a pinball machine even to this day is the first thing that people critique is an art package they've figured that out now they're like you can hide an empty play field with busy art yeah and that works very effectively it's like you can have yeah but this was this was an era where art was there to portray information this was not there to be like this is a masterpiece that's why i like it i like that the modes are very clear like inserts it's very you're like oh okay i gotta do all these things you don't really even need the score card or the rules card you can basically look at the inserts and you get a pretty good idea of your objectives yeah you might not know how to achieve those objectives but you know what you're trying to do which is nice i think to the art package and his his critique of it is a little bit like he's claiming how how bad it looks it's one of the worst he's ever seen but he doesn't know what games they're about to make like because it because to be fair like this thing like i think that's what i'm saying i'm like this has aged pretty well in my opinion compared to like like an iron man you're like i really love iron man and i'm like my god that's an ugly game oh dude like 24 csi like there's a lot of even like what glenn was bringing up like game of thrones you're like man this is not a great art package like yeah i like the play field on game of thrones but everything else yeah oakley pinball says the worst game i've ever played put in two bucks and walked away after one game boring you don't know when to quit do you chris wall here's an idea why don't you give me half the money you were gonna bet and we'll go out back i'll kick you in the nuts and we'll call it a day how many times have people said this is literally the worst game they ever played in these reviews this is like the third time you know what a game has to be someone least favorite game of all time and that always the thing i have to think about but i always just like really i can't i don't know like i'm like this is it i don't think it's that bad i like how he put in two bucks and walked away after one game which means he left a credit like he was like that dollar's gone man worst game he's ever played he had one he just won and done did you like this game when you first played it glenn i didn't understand it okay so i didn't love it right off the bat and that's that's kind of why i think that i wanted to be on this episode because i think that there's way more on the bone here to chew than people give it credit for that was the same reason i was interested in world poker tour and like this one because it's like i know there's more to these games than i understand it's like all the keith games like we keep coming back to is it's like they're not necessarily intuitive but they're a lot more fun once you realize what you're trying to do you realize that you're rewarded for looking deeper like there's layers under the surface that if you scratch out you'll get to and you'll have more fun with there's a lot of pinball machines though from this era that they're not that way they're just as simple as they look so people i think you're just bringing that into this game and maybe they don't like the high roller casino theme or they don't get it or they don't like the art package or whatever and then they just kind of never give it a chance here's here's what i'm surprised i haven't heard yet the when people complain about games ripping you off like when you're like when you shoot the you know the right shot and you're playing black you're playing uh poker and you have two pair but then the your the dealer has like a straight and then gary stern's head is on the last card winking at you like haha suck it and like you get a little upset because like i had a two pair i had a good hand the game just screwed me it's like well you know what sometimes theme appropriation is good Like, you don't win every single game when you go to the casino. Right. And you know what that casino's full of? People playing games. So why can't they play high roller casino? It's a better use of money than anything in the casino. Well, speaking of Las Vegas, ExtraBallingTMC says, I have only played it at the Pinball Hall of Fame, but I thought it was terrible and I walked away. It used to be something, and nobody can ever take that away from me. Well, that was a lazy response. He doesn't even give me anything to even, like... There's a lot of these... Oh, awful. it's just like a lot of these are just like people are like nope i hate this game worst game i've ever played i think it's interesting especially when we get into these games that were coming out like these were contemporary reviews because it's weird going back for these episodes and sometimes we're reviewing old games that people are reviewing you know 30 years after the fact and sometimes we're reviewing games that are brand new and everyone's super fucking positive on everything brand new so i guess we don't ever see those on dying this hell but these ones that came out and people weren't happy about them like in the early 2000s yeah they just immediately dismissed it yeah they were so naive i think they just truly thought that if they just shit talked everything stern did bally williams would fucking raise from the grave and start making medieval madnesses again and it's like guys you have to appreciate what you have right now because like at this time period they were lucky to have any new pinball machines at all and not to mention i remember this time not 2001 this is before i got into pinball got into one of the dark days the late knots yeah like 2007 but what i remember is when i was playing on location getting into pinball people would just roast me for playing any of the stern games at the time people like those games are trash you gotta play these bally williams games are so much better uh these games are terrible why are you wasting your time all that kind of stuff and that was sort of like the hobby at the time and what's interesting about that is that it's i've been alive long enough in the hobby that i've seen it completely flip where now it's like i see a lot of dissing or dismissing of the bally williams games from the 90s and i see a lot of people you know really hyped on the new stern games in particular uh that they're being made right now the spike 2 games and it's cool to see it kind of come around but i also think that a lot of these games were better than they were given credit for at the time they suffered from being compared to medieval madness and theater of magic and the best of the bally williams games that weren't that long before this they were like five years before this yep so they're comparing and they're like what happened why don't we get this and a lot of those guys were very upset but what they didn't realize is like even at that time medieval madnesses were like eight to ten thousand dollars which at that time these brand new sterns were selling for like $3,500, you know, like, and they just kept, they would have kept going up too, like without, even if you never liked any of these games, or you still don't like a brand new Stern game to this day, having pinball manufacturers make games means that you can like Creature from the Black Lagoon, and you can get one for a lot of money, but still not $25,000. If they were the only pinball machines available, everything would be insane. And there'd be no parts. Yeah. And the hobby would be a lot smaller so whether or not you love these games like they were doing a massive service to keeping pinball alive and i go back whenever we do these shows i go back i'm like these games are pretty fun i don't know like why people hate these games can i send out a psa real quick because i don't want this to be forgotten if you're going to the pinball hall of fame to play a game and then review it you should have your pin side card revoked better yet better yet Pinside, Pinside, here's what we do. Pinside, if you're listening, why don't you create a dead zone where nobody can review any machine within the city limits of Las Vegas? Okay.
    42:09
    I like that idea. I'm like, really, when you're judging a game off of one individual copy, that's always hard. And I think a lot of us do that because it's like, well, you don't have access. It's not like I can go find another high roller casino. and that's like my plus we're all so smart and we have to get our thoughts out there so people can hear that we'll have to know dude that's why we have a podcast you understand that's why we're doing it it's like i don't review things but i am on a podcast yeah okay okay one one final review alan last review pin ghetto says i'll play just about any game out there but not high roller casino i'd pay not to have to play that game i ain't seen a beating like that since somebody stuck a banana in my pants and turned a monkey loose that's because you play craps in the ghetto on the street you don't need to play pinball playing street crafts right there man why don't side the 7-eleven okay so we didn't get a lot of in-depth bad reviews on this one because a lot of the people that wrote really in-depth comments were people like glenn that really liked this game yeah they ended up being like you know there's a lot to this game this game's actually super fun and here's why but all the bad reviews are all worst game ever played never again put in two dollars hated this game worst game i've ever played terrible game never again uh i'll play any pinball machine except high roller casino i would pay you not to have to play that one which i think is very interesting at how hateful just like the gut responses to this game because i do have certain games where i have that gut response this is not one of them road kings is mine road kings will i'll spend i'll spend a week talking about how much i hate road kings but like like the second i'm playing that game i i want it to be over like i'd rather be getting a root canal like i just like i like road kings like i hate that game dude it's funny to be like high roller casino is not like that to me it doesn't it doesn't hit that it doesn't get me there high roller casino is a game that i'd like to play a tough copy of where i'm not just flailing endlessly or now that i have a better idea of the rules and what i'm trying to do i want to go i would go back to the same easy friendly copy i've played and tried to fucking beat the whole thing because i'm I'm like, now I try to do all three wizard modes. Yeah, because I'm like, I bet I could. And it's like, so many of these games, there really is, this era, there is more to the eye than you might think on a lot of these. Not all of them. Some of them really are very shallow. Yeah, and there's a kind of a cool function in this game, too, where when you're playing some of the poker hand and the blackjack, it does save your state. Because you have stand-ups in the back next to the slot machine that give you a card for blackjack. And if you don't look up and see it right away, it's not a big deal because you get in the instant info. It'll tell you what your blackjack hand is. It'll tell you what cards you're holding for poker. So you can decide whether it's a good time to go shoot those shots or not. It's got a lot going on. It's got the fucking interactive back glass game. It's got more mechs than you could possibly need. The hugest diverter they've ever put in a pinball machine. A very sick roulette wheel. It does kind of have a center ramp, though, don't you think? It does have a center ramp. yeah alex does not like center ramp games he's on ramp it's it's the right ramp there's two so there's only a left and a right well yeah we'll give it we'll give it to me too alex alex is this a fan layout oh god i don't know that's fucking alan's dot that's his die on this hill is everything a fan layout alan we were talking to my buddy here here's the funniest part is like everything we did on that episode of fan layouts everyone messaged me and did exactly what i described on the layout which is like that's not a fan layout that is a fan layout how can you say fishtails is family how can you say this is that this and that and i was like okay everybody and uh i'll even say our good friend greg dunlap who was on the show and he messaged me after most every episode to tell me what i got wrong i'll let i'll leave it here but he basically said when he saw the new dungeons and Dragons from Stern, he messaged me. He goes, I don't care what anyone says. That's a fan layout. And I was like, it's got an upper flipper with three shots. He's like, that's a fan layout. And I was like, okay, please forward me his comments on this episode. Yes, I will. I'll let you know for sure. I love you, Greg, if you're listening. Well, I know you're listening, but we always love hearing from you. Glenn, I want to thank you for joining us on the show. This was a great time. Yeah. Thanks for coming. So well-researched and doing a convincing job of selling this thing. Yeah, people, this is how you do Die on the Hill. Come prepared. Yeah, get your fucking notes in order. Yeah.
    47:02
    But we want to thank you. Oh, real quick. Last thing, last thing. I've got a note here from Bruce Nightingale at the RPC that he really wants one of these for his June Stomp tournament. So anybody in the Northeast can sell Bruce Nightingale one of these, especially because Ron Hallett hates this game, and we want to make him play it. Nice. so bruce loves it but ron hates it that's great yeah and also tim lee sucks at pinball good note to end on well i all in this episode was saying like i love that show the slam tilt pinball podcast we don't cover a kind of news and rumors and new games and stuff but that's a show that does it right i think so if any of our listeners haven't listened to the slam tilt podcast is ron on silver ball chronicles too where am i getting guys mixed up yeah ron's on the silver ball chronicles good podcaster yeah i did the fuck yeah song at the end of that that's that's my work Nice. Yeah. So, yeah, good plug at the end. I haven't met those guys yet, but I'd love to in the future. So with that being said, thank you for joining us, Glenn. Thanks for dying on the hill for High Roller Casino. I'm alive. All of those other haters are rolling down the hill.
    48:08
    They're in the fucking dirt, dude. All right. But anyone listening, go out, use the pinball map, go find yourself a High Roller Casino, and play it if you have one to sell in upstate New York and you want to sell it to Bruce so he can put in a stomp tournament, please do so. And for everyone else listening, until next time, good luck. Don't suck.
    48:33
    Bye, good luck.