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RePlay Magazine Podcast - Frank DeSocio

Replay Magazine Podcast·podcast_episode·52m 35s·analyzed·Jul 14, 2026
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TL;DR

Frank DiSocio discusses bowling industry evolution, Strike 10 marketing success, and current FEC trends.

Summary

Randy Chilton of Replay Magazine interviews Frank DiSocio, Executive Director of the Bowling Proprietors Association of America, in a long-form conversation covering bowling industry history, the evolution from league bowling to family entertainment centers (FECs), Strike 10's promotional successes (2000-2014), COVID-era recovery, and current state of bowling with 4-5% growth above 2019 benchmarks. The discussion emphasizes bowling's resilience, the shift to open play and ancillary attractions, and concerns about over-saturation of bowling within larger entertainment venues.

Key Claims

  • Bowling industry is currently 4-5% above 2019 benchmark levels

    high confidence · Frank DiSocio, Executive Director BPAA, discussing current industry performance

  • Strike 10 partnered with Banquet Foods/ConAgra on promotion featuring 88 million free games distributed across 36 SKUs, winning Marketing Program of the Year twice

    high confidence · Frank DiSocio recounting Strike 10's major promotional achievements circa 2003

  • There are still approximately one million certified league bowlers who bowl 35-week leagues annually

    high confidence · Frank DiSocio, BPAA Executive Director, citing league bowling participation statistics

  • North Rock Lanes (Wichita) opened in 1987 with ~4,000 sq ft game room, ticket redemption, indoor miniature golf, billiard tables, ping pong, and horseshoe/softball/baseball facilities

    high confidence · Frank DiSocio and Randy Chilton recounting Wichita FEC history they were directly involved with

  • Frontier Lanes (opened 1983, Wichita) was the first FEC-style venue combining bowling with arcades, miniature golf, billiards, and other attractions

    medium confidence · Frank DiSocio claiming pioneering FEC status for Frontier Lanes, though acknowledges some might disagree

Notable Quotes

  • “At the end of the day, it's easy to make changes when you're doing something you love and you make it for the right reasons, which is what's good for bowling.”

    Frank DiSocio @ Early in interview — Captures DiSocio's philosophy on industry leadership and motivation

  • “We were very aggressive. We felt we needed to be. March 14th or whatever, COVID hits. We shut our office down. We work from home. May 4th, we're back in the office full time.”

    Frank DiSocio @ COVID discussion — Demonstrates BPAA's rapid response and leadership during pandemic crisis

  • “I come to work every day. I get to talk to people about bowling. How much fun is that?”

    Frank DiSocio @ Late in interview — DiSocio's personal philosophy on his role, emphasizing passion for bowling community engagement

  • “We were probably 25% up on Room Drop as well. We had a great show. And Bowling's solid right now. I mean, you know, I'm not going to say people are cocooning, but they're staying home a little bit more. And our business is pretty solid.”

    Frank DiSocio @ Bowl Expo discussion — Recent industry performance metrics from major trade show

  • “When mom is booking a birthday party for her kid and her kids' friends, they don't think about it. They don't think about anything other than they want an enjoyable day. Whether they do that at Topgolf or with bowling centers or whatever it all is, that's just what they do.”

    Frank DiSocio @ Mid-interview discussion on competition — Frames bowling's competitive positioning against newer entertainment venues like Topgolf and Main Event

Entities

Frank DiSociopersonRandy ChiltonpersonBowling Proprietors Association of America (BPAA)organizationStrike 10 EntertainmentcompanyNorth Rock LanesvenueFrontier LanesvenueNational Entertainment NetworkcompanyChilton Vendingcompany

Signals

  • ?

    business_signal: Bowling industry operating 4-5% above 2019 pre-pandemic benchmarks; Bowl Expo Nashville showed 25% room-night growth; strong post-COVID demand recovery with FEC expansion

    high · Frank DiSocio: 'we're still above 2019's numbers... we're still well above 2019's numbers' and 'We were probably 25% up on Room Drop as well'

  • $

    market_signal: Bowling industry shift from league-dependent model to diversified FEC model with ancillary attractions (miniature golf, arcades, entertainment); league bowling (1M certified bowlers) remains stable foundation but no longer primary growth driver

    high · Discussion of Frontier Lanes (1983), North Rock (1987) pioneering FEC model; Frank notes 'There's still a million certified league bowlers' and 'league bowling is still fun' but growth now driven by 'miniature golf course that wants to expand' and 'adding eight lanes of bowling'

  • ?

    product_strategy: Bowling operators increasingly purchasing their own games rather than using revenue-share arrangements with distributors; territorial distribution protections have relaxed, enabling direct proprietor purchases; shift reflects improved game manufacturability and reduced operational burden

    high · Randy: 'most bowling centers now buy their own games... throw down two, three, four hundred thousand bucks' and Frank acknowledges evolution: 'when that really relaxed, you saw a lot more proprietors start buying their own games'

  • ?

    content_signal: Replay Magazine expanding from 50-year print/editorial history into podcast format; interviewing industry leadership (operators, association directors, manufacturers) on long-form audio; appears to be major media strategy shift for trade publication

    high · Randy introduces 'Replay Magazine Podcast' as new format; mentions 'we've had some pretty old guys on here' and recent interview with Bob Gesheen; podcast appears to be ongoing monthly series

Transcript

groq_whisper · $0.035

0:00
Welcome to Replay Magazine's podcast where we'll dive into the legends and interesting stories within the world of what we call coin-op entertainment. That's games and amusement machines you find in arcades, fun centers, bars, restaurants, and beyond. Replay has covered this business for 50 years and is joining forces with industry veteran and former association president Randy Chilton. He is chief revenue officer for National Entertainment Network owned by Japanese amusement giant Kiddleton Jenda. And now, here's Randy and this month's Replay Podcast. Hi everybody and welcome to the July edition of the Replay Magazine Podcast. Today we have a wonderful podcast to share with you, which is personally very enjoyable for me, interviewing my friend of many decades, Frank DiSocio, the Executive Director of the Bowling Proprietors Association of America. He's had a career in bowling that has spanned bowling center ownership. He has been the CEO of Strike 10, the marketing arm that really turned bowling around with a lot of national promotions. And since 2014 has been the executive director of the Bowling Proprietors Association of America, which in the end just makes him about the most influential person in the bowling industry there is today. A good friend of mine, a lot of great stories. Sorry some of them take us back to old home week in Wichita, Kansas, but we had a lot of fun making this. I hope you enjoy my conversation with Frank DiSocio today. Welcome to the July edition of the Replay Magazine podcast. And today's podcast is special for many reasons. I'm excited. It's Frank DiSocio, Executive Director of the Bowling Proprietors Association of America. Thank you Randy. That sounds pretty professional. My friend Chat, GPT, says Frank DiSocio has described as one of the most influential executives in the business side of bowling in the last 20 years. Oh, that's serious. Yeah. Listen, I don't know if I'm influential, but listen, at the end of the day, it's easy to make changes when you're doing something you love and you make it for the right reasons, which is what's good for bowling. It's all good. Hey, it's pretty humbling when you say that. I was impressed. I said, hey, we're going to quote that. You're also our youngest podcast guest today. We've had some pretty old guys on here. I like it. And here I actually wrote this. You're not an operator, distributor, and manufacturer of arcade games, and those have been most of the guests that we've had on this podcast. But you're clearly of influence the industry in a massive way with all of the bowling entertainment centers, the FEC. We're going to talk about that because I think I may have had a hand in this back in the day. We're going to talk about North Rock Lanes here in a minute. Hey, most importantly, Frank, we've been friends for 45 years. Usually, I did the math. I go, kid, I think I've known him for 45 years.
Brunswick Mfg. Co.
company
John Crumbperson
Bowl Expoevent
PVA Tourorganization
Replay Magazinemedia
[name withheld pending review]person
Banquet Foods/ConAgracompany
IFPAorganization
Topgolfvenue
Main Eventvenue
Bob Gesheenperson
David Ellisperson
Kiddleton Jendacompany
  • ?

    operational_signal: BPAA conducted mystery shopper audits of all U.S. bowling centers post-COVID to assess cleanliness, service, and operational readiness; findings revealed major improvements in facility maintenance and staff hospitality; modern bowling centers significantly less 'smoky and dingy' than legacy perception

    high · Frank: 'we mystery shopped every center in America and sent that to proprietors... And it was amazing how well proprietors did when people came back... when they go in, they say, oh my gosh, this isn't what I remember'

  • ?

    community_signal: Frank DiSocio's BPAA leadership (since 2014) represents shift from member-focused operational role (Strike 10) to association-wide advocacy and member support; leadership style emphasizes empowerment of staff, operational pragmatism, and daily proprietor engagement

    high · Frank: 'I'm more of a person that lets people do their job' and 'every day, I get to talk to people about bowling... I've talked to five or six proprietors already today' and transition from Strike 10 (80% business chase, 20% admin) to BPAA (20% chase, 80% admin but 'became really fun'

  • ?

    historical_signal: Wichita, Kansas was site of early FEC development with Frontier Lanes (1983) and North Rock Lanes (1987); these venues predate national FEC proliferation and represent early experimentation with bundled entertainment (bowling, arcade, miniature golf, billiards); Randy and Frank directly involved in pioneering these concepts

    high · Frank and Randy discussing Frontier Lanes 1983 as 'first FEC' and North Rock 1987 with 4,000 sq ft game room; Frank acknowledges 'some people might disagree' on first-to-market claim but credits their initiative

  • ?

    product_strategy: Strike 10 (2000-2008) pioneered massive CPG sponsorships for bowling industry (Fruity Pebbles free-game promotion, ConAgra/Banquet 88M free games across 36 SKUs); sponsorships positioned bowling as accessible entertainment during recession, won Marketing Program of the Year twice; model became template for industry growth

    high · Frank detailing Pebbles promotion as 'crushed it' and 'just crushed it'; ConAgra campaign '88 million free games... Marketing Program of the Year, two years running' with 'Banquet Foods brand' across '36 SKUs'

  • $

    market_signal: Bowling now competes with higher-price-point entertainment venues (Topgolf ~$100/day, Main Event, movie theaters adding bowling). Bowling positioned as affordable family entertainment for birthday parties and league play; niche advantage is social accessibility and league structure enabling skill-level mixing

    high · Frank: 'you could be a 170 average and compete with a 220 average person and have fun doing it... that's been the secret of growth' and discussion of Topgolf as '$100 day no matter what' vs. bowling's lower price point

  • ?

    venue_signal: Movie theaters adding bowling centers and miniature golf as revenue diversification strategy; represents opportunity for bowling operators but also shows industry trend toward bundled entertainment anchors in multi-use venues

    medium · Frank: 'movie theaters are another one that are putting in a lot of bowling centers and a lot of miniature golf courses that are building on... It's an interesting business today'

  • $

    market_signal: Frank expresses concern about over-saturation of bowling within larger entertainment complexes; references historical parallel to Japan's 1960s bowling boom followed by over-building and market collapse

    medium · Frank at end of interview: 'I have a concern of all these bowling centers that are being built within other businesses. And that it's like when Japan in the early 60s, Japan exploded in bowling... But then eight ye[ars]...' (transcript cuts off)

  • ?

    operational_signal: Post-COVID bowling centers faced severe labor challenges; employees reluctant to return to work; proprietors forced to hire and train new staff simultaneously across industry during reopening surge; BPAA provided guidance and benchmarking to help operators adapt

    high · Frank: 'they're all hiring new employees. Some of their employees didn't want to come back to work. And so everybody had their own issues trying to get reopened' and mystery shopper initiative to help proprietors 'get rid of the old that'

  • ?

    supply_chain_signal: Game manufacturing technology has advanced significantly; ticket-based redemption replaced with card-based systems; reduced mechanical failures and maintenance burden; improvements have accelerated proprietor adoption of owned-game model

    high · Frank: 'game manufacturing is light years ahead of what it used to be... now you just run cards' instead of physical tickets; 'I think it's just light years ahead of all the issues'

    • 3:20
    That's a long time. Yes, it is. And most of these podcasts I spend a lot, you know, I research, you know, I get Bob Desheen on, I'm reading his life story, I'm doing this. I prep for you for about a minute and a half because I don't need to, I've lived your career from close to the far. Both of us. This is a big, this is a big treat. So we're just going to have, we're going to have some fun. All right, let's start from going backward. You just came from Bowl Expo. My team says it looked like you had twice as many people as you did a year ago, but tell us how it went at Bowl Expo and Nashville. Yeah, I wouldn't say twice as many, but you know, we came out of D.C., which we missed it. D.C. for us is, which we didn't know, is almost like Orlando. A lot of distractions. So families come. And to be very candid, we rented as many room nights in D.C. as we did Denver, as we did before. But everybody wants to go see the attractions. They want to go to the Smithsonian. And so we just had less people on the show. We had less people coming. But they were there. But they were out running around. And we had more people. We just flat out had... We were probably 25% up on Broom Drop as well. We had a great show. And Bowen's solid right now. I mean, you know, I'm not going to say people are cocooning, but they're staying home a little bit more. And our business is pretty solid. I'm not going to say it's off the chart, but it's solid. And we're still above 29. Our benchmark, Randy, is 2019. And so we're, as an industry, we're still well above 2019's numbers. Yeah, it also attributes, since you were talking about the pre-COVID years, your management of your team, which you have a great team over there, is you're attributed with really guiding the BPAA through COVID. And you didn't sit back and just let it go. You were pretty aggressive. We were very aggressive. And we felt we needed to be. And as an ED, it was a struggle. We knew what we had to do. March 14th or whatever, COVID hits. We shut our office down. We work from home. May 4th, we're back in the office full time. We had pretty good spacing. We didn't have to worry about everybody's got an office. So I had people that just would lock themselves in their office and just, but it was good. But the struggle for me was simple. I'll tell you with a brief story. I get a call from Mike Devis from a proprietor up in Wyoming and he says, hey Frank, this was like second week of May, third week of May, can you come to our bowling convention, our proprietor convention in Casper? And I said, well, sure. You guys are meeting? Yeah, we've got everybody coming. And so I ended up, long story short, I drove up there and you get there and he's telling me, well, we've been shut down a week and now we're all back open. We've got some spacing. And then the next morning you're talking to another group and it's a group out of New York and they don't even see the ending of when they're going to be reopened. And for me it was a struggle. You had to be careful how you talk to people because some people, I mean, they had their best summer they ever had in Wyoming. And the guys in California and the guys in New York didn't even get open for another year. And so as an ED, you didn't want to show too much enthusiasm, but we were aggressive. We were aggressive on the, we went out and ordered, I think we ordered a million of these hand sanitizer packs that had Let's Go Bowling on it. We were sending that out to members because we were pre, the second day closed, we were pre-buying hand sanitizer, all we'd get our hands on. We were just aggressive about it. And I think it helped our industry a lot. Might have saved your industry. Yeah, some had a hard time getting back. You think of the movie guys, I mean, they're still, I mean, they're on their way back, but probably a little longer than they thought. Thank you. Don't want to get in trouble there by saying that. Hey, we got some theater customers over here. It's going great. All right, let's rewind the clock now. Best I can tell, it was 1980-something. And for the people that are viewing this, Frank and I, both Wichita, Kansas guys, so that's how this thing goes back so far. And back in the day, you went to Wichita State, and I went to the University of Kansas, and I came home and went to work for my dad, and you came home and went to work for your father-in-law. Close enough. Exactly. Perfect plan for both of us. And funny, here we are. But so you had, you know, and our company, Chilton Vending, provided the games to Joma Bowling Centers. And we did a pretty good job. But North Rock Lanes, and I remember this time because you and John had North Rock Lanes, and you said, hey, there's this guy in Chicago doing something, but we're going to put an arcade in North Rock Lanes in Wichita, Kansas. And is this going to be 4,000 square feet and we're going to have games all over the place?
    8:51
    Well, we've never heard of such a crazy idea. But John Crumb doesn't exactly, he's not asking the question. He's saying, here's what we need to do. So we did it. And then we designed it. Remember, we hired architects. We had neon lights going all over the place. And remember, you had those, it was before computers doing it. And you were cutting games out on a little chalkboard thing and placing them, I can do this and put that there. Oh, that's right. Oh, for the Redemption Center. Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. Had that Diggamark. Oh, baby. Not the Sega Diggamark. I'm searching for a sponsor here, too. Great game by Sega. I got to tell you, if you remember, we opened our first FEC, if you want to call it that, in 1983, Frontier Lanes out on West Kellogg. And remember, it was a 20 lane bowling center that had another 20,000 square feet on the other side. And so we put in indoor miniature golf. We had eight billiard tables. We put in ping pong. And we had only then that we have about we didn't do ticket redemption, but we had about 20 games, nothing special. And then we end up putting in a indoor horseshoe pitching courts on concrete, believe it or not. And then we also did two. We did a slow pitch softball and a fast pitch baseball. All in that. I remember that. We killed it. I mean, we just killed it. And that's what gave us the idea for North Rock. And then when we opened North Rock, we put that 40, matter of fact, we laid it out in your back warehouse with cardboard at your warehouse on Lincoln. And we laid out a golf course that had a 12-foot rock waterfall stream running through it. And the funny one on that, if you remember, we didn't have enough room, so John extended with these sunrooms up front. And then we had the big game room, which was almost 4,000 square feet. And we did Ticket Redemption. And the one funny one on the ticket redemption that I still laugh today, I saw an old picture. I was going over to the house of Schwann and buying all this Budweiser stuff because it was flying off the shelves. And finally, about a year after being opened, somebody said, do you know you're giving kids Budweiser branded beer products? I said, well, they're not kids. Well, Frank, they're 12 years old. Well, yeah, but we're not selling them beer. I mean, we killed it. I mean, it was, and that was in 87.
    11:27
    Well, thank goodness. And you were an integral part of us doing that. I remember that that place ran, I remember, I remember $10,000, $15,000 weeks and we just said, holy cow, I never saw such a thing. Now it's like, now it happens all the time in Bowling Center. Did you, were you, I don't know if I'm allowed to ask questions, but I guess I can, but did you, was Grand Prix, Did it pre-opened by then too and was it doing Ticket Redemption? Your place on 13th? I think it pre-dated that. That's okay. Or about the same time. I don't remember, I don't think this is a big pre-standing game room that my father opened in Wichita and restaurant and games. So, yeah, I don't think it's anything good for this. The finest gold fried shrimp you'd ever had in your life. Remember, they were so good. Don't get me going. I'm not sure we made any money on those french fries. What are you going to do? Yeah, fun times. So, now we've decided that you and I opened the first family entertainment center in between Frontier Lanes. And there's a few people that might disagree with that. But anyway, that was certainly forward thinking considering what the industry looks like today. So let's fast forward. So did you go straight to work for John, or was Brunswick before or after going to work for John? I went to work for Brunswick Corp. selling bowling equipment in the state of Kansas and a little bit of Missouri. No, I'm sorry. Quarter of Missouri and a little bit of Nebraska. Did that from 82 to 85 And then I went to work for John So was that John saying I want you to learn the bowling business or did you really want to go to work for Brunswick Well it was John wanting me to learn the bowling business and start to understand it better And he had a unique way of teaching, yes, so it was going to throw you to the wolves. But yeah, so I went to work for there. And then I think at that time he knew he was leaving, I think at that time he knew he was leaving, He wanted to get out of the King Louis chain, so at that time he just moved on. So get me in there, and then he stepped back from the business itself. So you and Kathy ran the Bulls for a number of years, and then how did the strike 10, you're president and CEO of Strike 10 in 2000 or so, right? Yeah. You took that job? Yeah. What was the appeal? You're a proprietor. You're making bank. You're running a bunch of bowling centers. And they say, hey, Frank, Strike 10. Tell me how you did that. Yeah, we were eight centers at that time, even a couple in Oklahoma City or Edmond and Yukon. But I sat on every board there was in bowling then. I mean, there was way too many, but I sat on them. And we had formed a company called Strike 10 Entertainment in 96 that literally went bankrupt. I mean, it was owned by the industry. It was like agency of record for bowling, Strike 10 Entertainment. And so it was done and they grabbed me at one of them. Why don't you go run this or figure out what we do with it? And that was in January 13, 2000. Never forget it. And so went to work there. We had an office in Shelton and an office in Greendale, Wisconsin, and closed up the office in Shelton. And I thought it was an 18 month kind of transitional.
    15:00
    And, you know, 26 years later, I'm still doing it. Well, I'm on the BPA side now, but yeah. Yeah. So I want to talk about Strike 10. Bowling was not in a good place in 2000, if I remember right. Because here's my non-proprietor view of bowling. I've always been very close to the bowling industry. But, you know, the premise of league bowling was sign up as many people as you can to give you 35 weeks in a row. And that's where the bread and butter was. And then people's attention stand shrank and the industry started losing league bowlers. And then there was a shift to open play as more of a strategy, not walking away from the league bowlers. And then you added all the additional attractions to that. I think Strike 10 was a really big part of that. I think he went out and did promotional deals with some of the biggest banners in the retail industry. Got lucky right out of the box. We just got lucky in 2000. We got lucky right out of the box. They put me in a meeting that, listen, I'm green. I don't know what I'm doing. And I go to this meeting. I'm not a sponsorship guy. I'm not a promotional guy. I just ran bowling centers. I ended up in a meeting with, I think, Kellogg's. Whoever had Coco and Sina Crunch Pebbles, whoever that was, and we did a free game offer on the back of it. And when you called the phone, because it was before going to a website, and Fred Flintstone answered and said, what's your zip code? We'll send you, you can have a free game of bowling. And we did that and crushed it and just crushed it. Was that the ConAgra brand promotion? No, ConAgra was. No, ConAgra was about three years later, and that was with the Banquet Foods brand. And we put on 36 SKUs, we put out 88 million free games.
    17:00
    And another one, and it ended up being Marketing Program of the Year, two years running with a guy named David Ellis, if I remember right. Great people. They were scared to death that we couldn't deliver, so they made the complaint line their 800 number. And they never got any. I mean, we redeemed them all. It was wonderful. But that one came after the Pebbles. And that's when we became really intricately involved with the PVA Tour at that time. Oh, yeah. Because it just got purchased in 2000 by the 39th, 69th, and 99th employee at Microsoft. So these were three big players out of Seattle. They loved bowling. They ended up buying it for whatever it was. And that helped us launch all these programs. Not necessarily the Fruity Pebbles, but the others after that. Wow. And that was really unprecedented in the bowling business at that time. I mean, these were big deals. They were. And we just got lucky. Listen, some of it's luck. Some of it our guys delivered. We, as an industry in those years, we always felt like a stepchild when you would meet with companies. And then, but once they grasped it, they liked it. It was easy to go do something else and get somebody else involved. And it was fun. It was, hey, 2000 to 20, 2007, 2008 was fun times. I mean, really fun. 08 hits and 08 was 08 for everybody. Not necessarily bowling. Bowling really, we're not a recession proof, but we don't have the big swings up. But we also don't have the big swings down. We live in that little middle part and there's ways of adjusting to still break even and not get, you know, like a car lot or something. We do all right. Yeah, it's a little bit like, you know, the traditional amusement business where a little bit of recession is good right up until they start closing the doors. Because when you look at a recession, you know, we're inexpensive entertainment compared to, you know, some of the main event, Bolero places in your industry. And, you know, people are looking for, or they even Buster's, which is an experience, or a Topgolf, which is a, you know, it's a $100 day no matter what you're doing. And so, yeah, I get it. I get it. And they all feel, you know what though, Randy, they all feel voids. Whether you go do a Topgolf, whether you go do a bowling, you know, when mom is booking a birthday party for her kid and her kids' friends, they don't think about it. They don't think about anything other than they want an enjoyable day. Now, whether they do that at Topgolf or with bowling centers or whatever it all is, that's just what they do. Whether they go to main event, whatever it is, they don't think about it. I think we're very reasonably priced within reason, but it fits the void that people look for. And if you're a bowler and you don't want to spend that kind of money, then you go to All You Can Bowl on Thursday, You know, from five to nine or something. You just do it different. And you're in the bowling industry because our industry relies on bowling in a big way, but all the FECs and everything, you know, coming out of COVID, we were all sitting around going, is there ever going to be a business here again? And then it just came back in waves. So we went from being nothing to do to supply chain and labor issues almost overnight. And I think the learning there for us was, you know, as humans, we want to socialize. It's it. And people started thinking, my goodness, I didn't know that I could lose all this. Let's all go out. So there's just a wave of everybody went back out to the FECs and I'm assuming the bowling centers and coming out of COVID was some big times. Yeah. And I think we've got big boxes. That's what we have. And so I think there was a comfortability that you could go into a bowler's area and you really didn't have anybody around you if you didn't want it. And coming right out of COVID, you know, it was like instead of every lane, we used every other pair. So if we went bowling, we might take lane one and two and we put the next person on three and four. So you wouldn't be using and you had space. And then a big, big building with 12 foot, 16 foot ceilings. And then I think bowling did their job. I think bowling did a great job of, you know, we might have been right after COVID, maybe three or four months after everybody was open, we mystery shopped every center in America and sent that to proprietors and said, hey, here's what they saw when they came in. And it was amazing how well proprietors did when people came back. I mean, how well they treated them and got rid of the old that. And there's a lot of people came bowling just because, but they remember it was smoky and dingy. And when they go in, they say, oh my gosh, this isn't what I remember. And so it was a revelation for a lot of our customers. And we just continue to ride that today. So you, as BPA, you sent secret shoppers into bowling centers and reported back to them what you found? Yeah, just gave it to them. We didn't even read, just sent it. Just to try to find out, let them know, hey, because you got to remember, you're all ratcheting up too, Randy. I mean, they're all hiring new employees. Some of their employees didn't want to come back to work. And so everybody had their own issues trying to get reopened. And it just was a kind of a thank you. Say, hey, man, here's what's going on. What a great idea. Yeah, lucky. And, well, let's do this in chronological order. So you did that for 10, 14 years.
    22:44
    I know you became executive director of the BPA in 2014. Is that right? Yeah, July 1st, 2014, I moved literally across the hallway. And so my guy who's now running Strike 10, he just laid me down some and says, hey, you got a call. I said, no, I don't. So he's right across. So, yeah, moved across in July, July 1, 2014. I didn't think I should do it. I mean, and kind of got convinced. A lot of the guys on the Strike 10 are the guys at BPAA. And I was very, you know, I always had the back of a bone and bone center. So I said, yeah, I'll come do it. But I was really leery. Strike 10 had two or three staff people at the most, maybe four. So you go from 80% chasing business, chasing everything, and 20% administrative. Then you come over to BPAA and it's 80% administrative because you got a staff of 35 to 20% to chase. It was a, it was a, the first six months was me in an office staring at a screen. It was, but it really flipped quick and became really fun. I mean, and it still is today or yeah, it still is today. I steal your line when people talk about retirement. You said, I come to work every day. I get to talk to people about bowling. How much fun is that? That's a good line. Yeah. Well, hey, for me, there's nothing better than talking to bowling people every day. And I think I've talked to five or six proprietors already today about something. And some of them, so minute phone call, one of them was 40 minutes. So, I mean, it's great. It's just, it's not the best. No, hey, I put it for you and I having lunch. And even though we reminisce, we got a lot to talk about. There's a lot going on in bowling, whether it's the game rooms, it's great. And to me, that's part of what we all do. Yeah, well, you're right. Our relationship's unique because you have your friends you grew up with, and then everybody goes their separate ways, and you see them once every couple of years and tell them what you're doing. Well, hell, you and I have been staying connected one way or another for 45 years. Damn, Frank. I know this isn't about you, but what year, because I was trying to think of the other day, what year did you move to Colorado? That'd be July 1st, 1998. Gotcha. Trying to think of that the other day. There might have been a transaction accompanied with that date, which is why it sticks in my mind. There you go. But it's a, yeah. And so then start with BPA and did some revamping here when I got here. Not a lot. There were some really good people already here, and so it made it easy. And I'd already worked with them all because I was, again, just across the hall. I wasn't a BPA guy. I was a strike 10 guy, but everybody knew me. I still owned bowling centers at that time. I still own three today. So they get it. But they were good people, and I'm more of a person that lets people do their job and go out and get it done. You don't need me riding above you saying, you know what it is. And I think that was a, at that time for BPAA was a great asset to bring to the table, to let people do their thing. And instead of this, you know, what are you doing today and how are you doing it? And it let people show their, just show who they were. Well, you have such a strong team over there. Yeah. That good Yeah Good Good stuff What is the state of bowling industry today would you say How would you summarize it Again, we use 2019 as a benchmark. I don't think it was never fair using 20 or 20, 21, because even at 21, there were still a lot of bowling centers that weren't even open full time yet, or they had limitations. And so we go back to 19 and we're still above that by 4% or 5%, maybe a little higher. And so business is good. Huge influx of building of FECs over the last seven or eight years. But on the, you know, everybody forgets there's still a million certified league bowlers that bowl 35 week leagues every year. They have to join every year. So it's not like it's a, you know, you join, you're in for good. So they re-sign up all those people every year. It's wonderful. And league bowling is still fun. I mean, league bowling is still, you know, you could be a 170 average and compete with a 220 average person and have fun doing it. And I think that's been the secret of growth, as you see at IAPA, for bowling. And that's why when you go to IAPA, you see a lot of the bowling guys are all there with big boosts, just like they are at Expo. But the miniature golf course that wants to expand in a game room and adding eight lanes of bowling or 12 lanes of bowling, it brings people together. And it just gives you another revenue stream for your plot of land or what you're doing. And movie theaters are another one that are putting in a lot of bowling centers and a lot of miniature golf courses that are building on. So it's an interesting business today. You remember I am a former league bowler? Yes, you are. You grabbed me in 1980-something and said, Randy, I'm starting a Monday Night Football League at North Rock and you're going to be on my team. And I went out there and I stunk. I couldn't even bowl 100, maybe 110 on a good day. And not to name drop, but another customer of ours in Wichita was Gordon Vatican at Wichita State University, the greatest collegiate bowling coach in America ever, Hall of Famer. And I go to him and I said, Gordon, would you teach me how to bowl? Frank's making me bowl every night and I really stink at it. And he looked at me and he said, well, if you'll come by every Tuesday at four, we'll spend a little time for you. And I think I got that thing up around one, you know, 60-ish. Oh, you were a little above that. You were pretty good. How fun was that? Watching a little football? Monday Night Football was above the screens and that was a collection of folks that we all bowled with. I'll leave it at that. Yeah, well, you know, I'm working for Dad to come out and show up and work at 10 the next morning, so it was all right. It was good. I shouldn't say this, but I still remember your dad driving around in that back warehouse on that concrete floor with that little machine. He wanted clean floors in this big warehouse. And you wanted to buy that warehouse back in the day, put cars in it or something. God, I'd love to have that. Yeah. It'd still be good to have. Still would be. That's pretty funny. What was I going to ask you? Oh yeah, I'm back to business. So I think I had a slight career miscalculation. And this goes to, you know, being a traditional operator and providing games. And somewhere along the line, most bowling centers now buy their own games. Now we have a lot of bowling centers, but most proprietors will just throw down the two, three, four hundred thousand bucks, buy their games. Distributors will make that pretty painless, install, do the whole thing and turn to it. And my theory was that always made a lot of sense in the first year or two. And then things start breaking and people start asking for more games and it really becomes a hassle. And they would all call us and go, hey, come help me out. I got in the game. Get me out of the game business. This is hard.
    30:23
    Not very many people call. Yeah. I've got to tell you, Randy, if you take the evolution for guys like me, so remember my first big game room. You ran it. We rev shared. We rev shared for at least 2015. You were out by then, but we were still rev sharing because I didn't want to throw the guy out. He had a big investment in games there. But in those days, you had protected, if I'm right, you had protected territories for distributors that really weren't allowed to sell that game in that territory without going through the other distributor. I might be wrong on that. No, no. Back in the day, that's exactly what they tried to enforce. But with some success, you're right. But when that really relaxed, you saw a lot more proprietors start buying their own games. You know, I interviewed Bob Gesheen on this very podcast a few months ago, and he talked about this exact thing. He said, we just decided to heck with it. We're going to sell to everybody. These territorial boundaries really make no sense in the industry, and they were really the ones that pushed that whole agenda, exactly what you're talking about. Yeah, and it was – for us, and I do think game manufacturing is light years ahead of what it used to be. And so you just don't have, and then remember all the tickets that would get stuck on ticket gains, now you just run cards. I think it's just light years ahead of all the issues. But I got to tell you this, one of my best friends in the business, a bunch of locations, still running tickets, won't get rid of them. Those kids love it coming out. And you can't argue with him because he runs big volume. So I still believe we all run our business. We got to run it the best that it works for us. And if you think you still need to have a route guy that does your games, I get it. But some don't, some do. In bowling, it's just that way. You get a little of everything. And we and I have talked about that before where, you know, even a big operator says, I just, I'm a bowling guy. Yeah. Where do you see this? Where's bowling going? What do you look over the next five, ten years? I think we might. I have a concern of all these bowling centers that are being built within other businesses. And that it's like when Japan in the early 60s, Japan exploded in bowling. I mean, they couldn't get the equipment over there quick enough. But then eight years later, you still got to run a business. You can build whatever business you want. Whatever business you want, you can make a magnificent business, but if you don't operate it and you don't run it correctly or you don't know how to do it, you're probably going to fail. I mean, you could. And I think bowling, what scares me is bowling is always going to be here. And I think the traditional FECs, I even call them now traditional FECs, are all still doing very well. We've all learned that it's the five miles, 10 miles around our bowling center. That's the draw. That's our draw area. And I just went into a new Andretti's up in Kansas City, and they're doing great. And even though they compete against one bowling center, they're doing great because it's a piece of their bigger business, and they're really good at it. But I do get worried at times there might be too much of an influx of smaller six to 12 lane centers built into other attraction businesses. And that sometimes worries me. And then I think you're going to see this continual growth of string machines, which don't need the mechanics of what we call a freefall. And what I mean by that is a string machine is almost like if you've ever seen Route 66. They got a string holding the, but the regulation laying right and their regulation with the United States Bowling Congress, our governing body, but you don't need a mechanic to use them. You have a mechanic, but you don't need to know everything you do on a free fall. And I think there's going to be a continued growth with that as well.
    34:34
    And I don't think that affects our game at all. I think it's just growth. But I think bowling is set for the future. I think we operate better today than we have ever operated as an industry. I mean, you can't, you know, it's tough to measure some of that, but, you know, we're a tough group to measure, Randy, because we only have three companies that are public.
    34:58
    Main Event, Lucky Strike, and I think there's one more small one, and that's it. Everybody else is privately held or privately owned. Where you go to the restaurant business, a lot of public, so you can get real numbers, you know, quarterly, and we don't have that. But we're all doing pretty good. We could do it. We could always do better. Always do better. But I feel great. And that's why I still keep three centers, even though I sold some. I keep three. And whenever I'm done here, I'll go back and start hanging out, running my bowling centers. To your point about proprietors, because as a former regular attendee of the Kansas State Bowling Proprietors Association meetings and played in their golf tournaments, as you always invited me, Bowling proprietors are unique in that they're just a bunch of good old down home proprietors. A lot of them started out being great bowlers, great businessmen. And so you're right. You're right. I mean, we deal with a lot of different verticals, but the bowling centers are consistently some of the nicest, easiest, not easiest, but the most enjoyable people to deal with. I'll say this about bowling players. For my salt of the earth people. That's what I've been trying to say. It's a high cost entry into bowling centers. To build a bowling center is a high cost entry. I mean, it's expensive. Well, you don't think about it, but you're building a building that if you're putting bowling in it, you're only using 20% of that building. You don't think about the 90 foot lane that takes up space. But you got to have a building for it. And so, but our guys, they get in and they do great, but they're salt of the earth and they never forget how they got there and what sacrifices, whether it was personal or financial or time constraints, they did to get there. And that's why I think they keep this. For a guy that's seen a lot of other industries, a lot of other industries, they'll help each other. That their peers, even if they're a competitor, and I'll even bring up our good friend Dale Frazier. And Dale was a guy that I competed with, we didn't always agree with, but if we needed help, we helped each other, even though he was a competitor. And I will tell you that's the bulk of America for bowling centers. Yeah, I certainly have witnessed it firsthand. Yeah, you did, yes. Yeah, well, love it. All right. Let me ask you a couple of more questions here. You know, through your Strike 10 and your BPA, you run in some pretty big circles. You've got your president with you and Bush too over there behind you somewhere? Yeah. It's got to be on you. Hold that. Hold that. Yeah. Fantastic picture. Don't you have one with Obama too or just Bush? Yeah, I've got one with Obama. I had a unique, went to the White House for Brighton. I had breakfast for Veterans Day and actually got to have my picture with Biden and Obama together, which is having both the vice president and president is a little bit unusual. You don't always get it. And I've got that. It still hangs in my office. Yeah. It's a great one. Yeah. And it was breakfast at the White House and it was good. They were a lot of fun. I mean, Obama was a lot of fun. I mean, he won't bore you with the story, but it was a lot of fun because you get 15 seconds with him. And I made a comment that he dragged it out for another minute and a half. It was a long time to be talking to the president. Yeah, well, the other good one I got is when I remodeled the White House bowling lane. So I had to go to the White House, I don't know, 10 or 12 times. What? And then remodeled the executive branch across the street and got, and I'll never forget it, I became buddies with the usher of the White House under Trump's first term. And next, you know, one day I'm at home and this thing, I don't know how you got my name, got my address at home, and I got an invite to the White House Christmas party. Get out of here. Oh, it was unbelievable. It was so cool. I mean, it was just, it was just so cool. The White House Christmas party. Yeah and the White House Christmas party is all about the First Lady It not about the President So Melania got my picture with her and it was unbelievable You got a picture with Donald I haven seen that one I haven got one with Donald I got one with her Probably a better picture anyway Much better picture. But yeah, so I've got to do some cool, you know, this year we had Drew Brees speak. But we've had, I've got to meet another guy I don't ever talk about a lot was a, I'd probably get mad for talking about, I got to spend a little time with a guy who owns Chelsea Piers in New York City. His head of marketing and I were friends and one day he wanted to meet with me about bowling because they have a big bowling center on there. And he was not dressed the best because, hey, I'm sorry, I just got back from the Olympics and I flew out there with George Bush. I said, really? He goes, yeah, George W. was my pledge son at Yale or Harvard or whatever. It was interesting. And then he actually talked about it for a minute. He was a great guy. But yeah, I've been blessed to meet a lot of freaking people. And I got to tell you, I don't know if I've ever met one that I think most people are accommodating and it's great. And they love talking bowling. You know, it doesn't mean they're going to go bowl, but they love talking bowling. The one line I always use, I don't think I've ever met a person that is an adult that their children haven't not attended a bowling birthday party.
    40:51
    I'd even say that to you right now. Do your kids ever go to a bowling birthday party? Oh, heck yes. Yeah, that's my point. And anybody you go to gets it. I mean, because they've been there. But I've been busing me a lot of people and it's been fun doing it. It really has been. O-Link sponsors a race every year. We sponsor a bunch of stuff, yeah. And you've, if I remember right, you got another picture up there. You doing the checkered flag at the Indy, Daytona, both, I forget. Yeah, I've done the checkered flag at Watkins Glen and maybe Pocono. We try to let our volunteers do it. I mean, that's my bigger thing. We have a god of people that, you know, I'm paid to do what I do, but we have a lot of people that give their time and effort and we try to do that. So we do a Super Bowl program where we have bowling and raise money for the NFL Alumni Association. We've done that since 24, 20, well, we've done a long time, but 18 years now. And so you get to go to the games and you take people and then we do a Macy's Day Parade float, which I'm so proud of to get in there and wonderful people to deal with. Do a Rose Bowl. And here's how I always tell people, this is how small a world it is. We have a Rose Bowl Parade float that we do. And believe it or not, the Tournament of Roses, which is the parade and the Rose Bowl, is ran by a Wichita guy named David Eats. Unbelievable. Well, he's not the guy in charge. I think I had dinner with you and him about a month ago, didn't I? That's right. We got to go to that wonderful restaurant. Yes, that's right. And so, but you don't, you know, you think, and people always sometimes make fun of you, Randy. They'll say to me, Frank, everything doesn't come from Wichita. I said, listen, man, there's a lot of stuff goes on there. You just wouldn't think about it because it's Wichita. But we do that. And then we do, we do a race. We just signed on with Professional Bull Riding. We're the sponsor of the New York Mavericks Bull Riding Team. There's 12 of them across the country. And I'm looking forward to it. We've never done it. We're looking forward to that. And NASCAR has been NASCAR. We've been in NASCAR since 20, maybe even 2012. We're a long time in there. Been fun. We did a bowl game for a few years. Don't know if that works, but we'll see. We've got to just keep looking at it. What you find out is, even though we have a very limited budget to do this stuff, you try to sprinkle it around and just get your money's worth the best you can. It doesn't sound that limited. No, it's more limited than you think. It's just how you do it. We don't buy a lot of commercials. Most of ours are awareness programs. And that's working. Like the Military Bowl having your name on having Go Bowling. And, you know, the great thing about bowling and using the Go Bowling tagline, which is what we have, the great thing about that is the call to action, Randy. It's not like you're trying to promote Dippin' Dots or whatever you want to call it and try to explain it. Go Bowling. Everybody knows what bowling is. The pin is one of the most recognized items in the world still. And so if we can just talk about bowling, it enhances our brand. Is there any event that is on? Do you even have a bucket list? No. Listen, I've been very blessed. You know the one? You'll love it. I have one bucket list item. I do have one bucket list item that I will get done. I'm not going to say his name because he's going to get it done for me this year.
    44:32
    Everything I've ever gone to, I've been to so much. I mean, one year, I was invited to the Sports Illustrated swimsuit photo issue. And that's why on the tag of my car I put in there by a couple of friends of mine, it says, no show, disocio, because I didn't go. And they go, you're kidding me. But I've never been to the Masters. I've been invited, I won't, 15, 20 times. Get invited every year. One guy just says, you're not invited me this year. He goes, Frank, you don't go. So why invite? But a bucket list would be to play Augusta. And I think this might be my year to get it done. And you see me play. I suck. I'm horrible. Oh, so you're not just going to attend the Masters, you're going to play Augusta National. I want to play the course. I want to play the course before I go to the Masters itself.
    45:26
    I want to reverse it. And I think this guy, I think I got a chance this year. Well, you know, if you're a guy or two short, you know a guy. Oh, I know a guy. You'd be there in a heartbeat, yes. And I've had friends play it. Two or three have played it. I had one friend that actually got to play Sunday night. And when he told me his whole experience, I said, man, I got to go try to do that. And I'm not big on, I'm not big. I mean, I played beautiful courses. I'm just, as you well know, I'm just not very good. But I just enjoy the outside, being outside and being with new people. It's just fun.
    46:04
    Amen to that. All right. Speaking of having some fun, let's have some fun here. And I apologize in advance for some of this. But this is you getting the Victor Lerner Award in Bowling. It's the Hall of Fame for the Bowling. It is the highest honor in the bowling industry. Yes, it is. And that's a dear friend of mine, Kevin Krause from St. Pete, giving it to me. And listen, it's humbling. You never think you deserve it. And I still don't think I deserved it, but it's humbling. Yeah, that was Kevin a year ago, a year ago, June. Kevin is one of the, I call Kevin one of the great minds of bowling. He gets it. He loves it. He enjoys it.
    46:52
    He's over the last 15 years has become a very good friend. And to have him give it to me was even more proud for me.
    47:01
    Congratulations. That's just a huge deal. Thank you. It was a good one. Let me see what else I got here. Oh, hey, easy now. Oh, come on. What happened? I don't know how this got in here. Yeah, okay, sure. That's why I was the mascot for Wichita State University. I think I'm one of the only mascots that got fired. I got fired after the Creighton Blue Jay game up in Omaha, Nebraska. That was a fun time. I bet you were fantastic at it. Let's see, what else do I have here? Oh, come on. Kevin, I got, what are going on here? Who's that? Oh, those are my grandkids, man. That's Wyatt and Mason. I've never seen a grandfather that didn't want to talk about his grandkids. Oh, my God. I've got six now. I've got Wyatt on the left, or whatever it is on the show, is the oldest. Mason is next. And then there's Logan. And that's my oldest son. And then my daughter, Elizabeth, has JB. And he's going to be three on Saturday. And then they've got another one due in October. And then I have another grandchild with Linda and I, Zay. They live out of Florida. He's only like three months old. So that's how you know you're old, man. I got to get my kids busy here. There's one more that really I just thought was cool. What's that? Oh yeah, that's JB. I think the expression, JB's cool, but the look on your face is exuding happiness is what I'd say. You can always tell it's JB because it's either heavy equipment or tractors. I bought him one of these remote control bulldozers and he thinks he's driving and his mom and dad are back there. But now he does drive it himself. I just talked to my daughter this morning. She was telling me that every day he gets home and drives it. And he's been doing that for a year, so it's kind of cool. Well, those are good-looking grandkids. Thank you very much. I've got to get my kids busy, man. I don't even have one. I'll wait till you get one. Yeah, here's the funny one. I don't have any girls. And so, Elizabeth's daughter in October, or Elizabeth's going to have a girl in October, So it'll be my first, which could be really bad for Elizabeth and Colt because I'll be a spoiler.
    49:38
    Well, that's pretty cool. Yeah. All right, man. What should we talk about that we haven't covered here? I've gone through my list. E over replay sent a whole list of questions. I think I've knocked out those. We've looked at family pictures.
    49:52
    Well, the two things you have forgotten to mention is that you're, I don't know if I have an original idea in my life. I really don't. And your influence for me taking me to my first AMOA show, whatever year that was, I think you were an officer, but you weren't president yet. And watching how that show went and how you raised money for the foundation by auctioning off a quid. I mean, we still implement all that stuff today at Bowl Expo and in a sense, talk to me, let me learn through you. And I say that because right after that I say the same thing when I'm talking to friends or doing stuff like this. This world we live in is all about relationships. It's all about friendship and relationships. And I tell my kids when they went to school, it is. And to think that I can just pick my phone up and call you. We've been friends that long. And sometimes we went maybe a year without talking sometimes. But you pick it up and boom, you're back. And I think sometimes we underestimate the power of relationships and friendships that go way back. I just think we underestimate it sometimes. But I think of all that stuff you taught me. And I talked, I was at one of our group meetings and I talked about ticket redemption and all that. And I said, well, Frank, you've been doing, I said, listen, my buddy Randy Chilton got me into this. And we didn't, we learned together. He barely knew it. You know, he read about it and saw some places, but learning together was great. And it's still great today. And I appreciate and I thank you for that. And you've taught me a lot more than I should know. Well, I hope we have many more years of doing it together. And people say, Randy, how much longer are you going to work? And I go, Frank's working, I'm working. So God help you. I'm following you, buddy. I'm following you. God help you. Well, I think we can put a pin in that, gone a little bit over an hour, and it's just so enjoyable. This has been the funnest, most personally rewarding conversation just because you and I have such history. We do. It's just been a hoot, and we got a lot of mutual connections in Wichita, so it's all good, man. I appreciate you, and I appreciate your friendship and your hour or so we spent today. And congratulations on all that you've achieved. It's been so impressive. Thank you, Randy. Good to see you. It's humbling. Very humbling. All right. Take care, my friend. See you, buddy. Thank you. Bye-bye. Game over.