Episode 45 - Don't Let The Door Hit You

Special When Lit·podcast_episode·36m 35s·analyzed·Apr 1, 2019

Analysis

claude-haiku-4-5-20251001 · $0.031

TL;DR

New co-host Jason Fowler joins; Ken departs to This Flipping; Black Knight: Sword of Rage deep dive.

Summary

Special When Lit Podcast Episode 45 announces Jason Fowler as the new co-host, replacing Ken who departed to co-host This Flipping Podcast. The hosts discuss the podcast transition and industry personnel moves involving Zach Meny and the Slam Tilt Podcast, then pivot to coverage of Stern's upcoming Black Knight: Sword of Rage, analyzing its design features, non-licensed theme strategy, and potential market implications. The episode includes a 'Drain It or Save It' segment on pinball gameplay habits and collector strategy discussion.

Key Claims

Ken departed Special When Lit to co-host This Flipping Podcast with Jeff Patterson and Dennis Kriesel
high confidence · Jason Fowler and Bill Webb discussing Ken's move at episode start
Zach Meny obtained a distributorship that led to changes in This Flipping Podcast structure
high confidence · Jason Fowler explaining Zach Meny's transition from This Flipping Podcast
Jason Fowler and his former co-host Chris Haper (Slam Tilt Podcast) had interpersonal conflict that sometimes surfaced in episodes
high confidence · Jason Fowler acknowledging on-air friction with Chris during Slam Tilt era
Black Knight: Sword of Rage features a motorized flail and shield on a central Black Knight playfield character
high confidence · Jason Fowler describing confirmed game features
Black Knight: Sword of Rage is Stern's first non-licensed IP game in a long time
high confidence · Bill Webb stating this is Stern's first game without intellectual property licensing
Steve Ritchie designed Black Knight: Sword of Rage with music by Scott Ian (Anthrax) and call-outs by Ed Robertson (Barenaked Ladies)
high confidence · Jason Fowler providing confirmed design and music credits
Tim Sexton handled programming on Black Knight: Sword of Rage
high confidence · Bill Webb stating Tim Sexton did the programming
The optimal personal collection size is between 4-7 machines accounting for space and usage justification
medium confidence · Bill Webb and Jason Fowler discussing ideal collection limits based on play frequency
Bill Webb currently has 9 machines in his basement, some being fostered
high confidence · Bill Webb disclosing current collection size

Notable Quotes

“I'm a fan of non-licensed IPs, non-licensed pins. I think if you look in the history of pinball, some of the titles that kind of stand head and shoulders above are the Black Knights, the Getaways, the High Speeds, the Medieval Madness, the Attack from Mars.”
Bill Webb @ mid-episode — Core industry philosophy about unlicensed game design quality and market potential
“This is Stern's first game in a long time that's not an intellectual property, so I'm really curious to see what happens as far as sales go.”
Bill Webb @ mid-episode — Key observation about market strategy and potential precedent-setting for future Stern releases
“I have to drain that just because you never get better by draining the game. By dropping the first ball, you know, the game after a first ball, you know, it doesn't right you to actually persevere and still try and make the game into something.”
Jason Fowler @ mid-episode — Reflects competitive mindset about skill development vs. casual play
“Steve Ritchie has such a way of making a game flow that it's almost hard to hate it, even if you don't like the theme or you might not like the premise of the game.”
Bill Webb @ mid-episode — Industry respect for legendary designer's fundamental game design competency
“I don't want to start slinging mud. I have a ton of respect for Ken. I'm sorry to see him go and I'm honored really to take over his position.”
Jason Fowler @ opening segment — Diplomatic transition statement by new co-host regarding departing host
“Between money and space, it's always a toss up. You know, John Popadiuk, Automated Amusements, Jerry Klyce, Zach Meny, Wally Williams, I have to figure out, A, if I have the space.”
Bill Webb @ collection discussion — Reflects collector psychology and industry figure recognition among enthusiasts
“I remember my dad used to say when I was younger and I was dating when I first started out, he was like, don't stay with a girl because you don't want anybody else to have her. Stay with her because you want her. And I was like, that's great advice because I kind of find myself doing that with pinball.”

Entities

Jason FowlerpersonKenpersonBill WebbpersonZach MenypersonChris HaperpersonJeff Pattersonperson Dennis Krieselperson Steve Ritchieperson

Signals

?
personnel_signal: Ken departs Special When Lit to co-host This Flipping Podcast with Jeff Patterson and Dennis Kriesel; Jason Fowler replaces him
high · Jason Fowler explicitly states Ken was asked by Jeff Patterson to join This Flipping Podcast; Zach Meny's distributorship prompted restructuring of This Flipping Podcast
?
personnel_signal: Slam Tilt Pinball Podcast (Jason Fowler & Chris Haper) dissolving; hosts parting ways due to personality conflicts; Zach Meny may contribute occasionally
high · Jason Fowler acknowledges on-air tension with Chris Haper; cites decision to separate professionally; mentions Zach Meny working with Chris 'when his schedule allows'
?
product_strategy: Stern positioning Black Knight: Sword of Rage as first non-licensed game in significant time; potential market test for future unlicensed titles
high · Bill Webb: 'This is Stern's first game in a long time that's not an intellectual property, so I'm really curious to see what happens as far as sales go'
?
design_philosophy: Industry perspective that licensed games create creative restrictions vs. unlicensed games offering blank canvas freedom
high · Bill Webb discusses how licensing restricts art, animations, and creative direction; Jason Fowler agrees licensing can handcuff designers
?
announcement: Black Knight: Sword of Rage confirmed features: motorized flail/shield on central Black Knight, drop targets, MagnaSave, upper clear playfield (Premium/LE), Scott Ian music, Ed Robertson call-outs, Tim Sexton programming

Transcript

groq_whisper · $0.110

0:00

The special When Lit Pinball Podcast starts now. I can see clearly now the rain is gone. Good afternoon Pinball Land. How is everybody doing? This week in Special When Lit we have our new co-host as Ken has departed to bigger and better things. And I would like to introduce to you our new co-host of the show. Jason Fowler

0:59

It really worked out. Yeah, it has. I think you and I have always kind of clicked. We've always gotten along great. I was really thankful that you reached out to me when all this happened a couple days ago. I guess maybe I'll introduce myself and kind of explain what I know that's happened and feel free to kind of give your two cents whenever you have something that I don't know more about or whatever. My name is Jason Fowler. I am formerly the host of the Slap Safe Pinball Podcast. We are based in St. Louis, Missouri. My co-host was Chris Haper. I guess everybody knows Zach Meny and basically Zach got a distributorship and that's where things started kind of going a different way for him. Zach, who runs the This Week in Pinball Podcast and worked with Jeff Patterson, they decided I know Zach had a lot of stuff on his plate, and I think Jeff had maybe a little different idea of how much time was going to be spent on the podcast. So Jeff reached out to Ken, who used to be Bill's partner here and asked him to do the This Week in Pinball Podcast. And I think Dennis is also sliding over to help him out. Is that correct? Yeah, that is. The Out Pinball Podcast is a production of WILLY WANKA. I agree and and I don't want to start slinging mud I have a ton of respect for Ken I'm sorry to see him go and I'm honored really to take over his position I I have big shoes to fill but I will say this I Chris as my former co-host Chris has a very strong personality and I think I do too and Chris and I were having some trouble getting along I think that might have popped up a couple times in episodes that some of the listeners maybe could hear All of these are great podcasts that are going to be available to you, and I think we decided that it's just better to move on in separate directions. And from what I understand, Zach might possibly work with Chris at Slapsave when his schedule allows, sort of as a whenever he can get to it type thing. So, the only thing I'm not real sure about is Tony at Eclectic Gamers Podcast. Have you heard what's going to happen with him? What is he doing? I don't, but you know what, in all honesty, I hate to say this, but I don't mind throwing a little bit of mud here and there and seeing what sticks on the wall. I almost think that this was Ken's plan all along to make the transition from Special Inlet to This Week in Pinball. I'm happy for Jeff that, you know, that worked out for him. And more importantly, I'm happy for you and I that we actually get to do this on a regular basis together because you and I can have two-hour conversations and typically it's Hope For Life, she's your host, Jay Polis, Chris Doug, and like everybodyyo know I'm outежit 2022 Yeah, and you know what? I mean, you and Chris did have some interesting moments on your podcast. So it wasn't too far-fetched to see everything kind of play out the way that it has. I will say that I'm excited about editing this podcast because I actually have a blister on my right pointer finger from hitting the bleep button on our podcast because we try to keep it somewhat family-friendly. I'd say more PG-13. The Out Pinball Podcast is a production of WGBH. I have to say thank you for not even batting an eyelash saying I'd love to make the transition and try and have a different format than what I'm usually doing right now on your show. The stars just aligned. It was perfect. Absolutely. Yep. So let's start talking some pinball. Let's act like I guess we're going to continue this as we are. And Black Knight, Sword of Rage, have you got a chance to see anything about that? I did. I was, you know, I wasn't really sure knowing going into this that this was probably going to be Stern's next title, what to expect. You know, you think of like Black Knight and Black Knight 2000 with the artwork on the play field and the iconic sounds and everything. How can you really take something like that and bring it current? So when I did see it, it really did look a lot better than I had anticipated because I was just kind of unsure. I'm a fan of the playfields. I was pleasantly surprised with the playfields and the artwork. What were your thoughts on that? Maybe we should give some background on it. It's a Steve Ritchie design, for those of you that haven't seen much about it. All of the games in the series are going to be a pro, a premium and an LE. All the games are going to have a black knight in the center of the playfield that has a motorized flail and a shield. There is drop targets, which is a good thing because it's not always given nowadays. There is going to be a MagnaSave on the right side, controlled by the button on the lock down bar, so that's going to be like the old school one. It's a... Except the... Yeah. Except the... On the older ones, the flipper was on the right hand side. Oh, the button for the MagnaSave. Yeah. That's one thing I wish would come back, but we'll get to maybe what we don't agree with here in a minute. Yep. It features music from Scott Ian. He's a guitarist from Anthrax and I believe Ed Robertson from Bare Naked Ladies is doing the call outs. The differences between the Premium LE and the Pro, the Pro is actually not going to have an upper play field and the Premium LE has a clear one. So that being said, what are you most excited about with what you've seen so far? So in all honesty, I'm really excited to see that upper play field. I think that was a great idea to make it out of Lexan so you can see the bottom of it so you're not burning up a third of your playfield on your upper playfield. So I really like that and I thought that was creative. I do like the MagnaSave. I'm curious to see how well it works and functions. The shield on the Black Knight I think is a cool feature. It kind of reminds me, not in a literal sense, but it's reminding to me of like a Medieval The Flail looks pretty cool.

8:36

You know, really, I think now it's just, you know, kind of jumping in and actually getting a chance to play this thing. So, you know, one thing I do, you know, I'm curious to see is I would love to take that feather out of the guy's skull cap or whatever, the hood. It's pretty big, isn't it? Yeah, dude, I would love to get him like a pimp hat that he could wear. Ooh, I like it. You know, that would be a cool mod, just because, you know, it'd be tasteless and, you know, doesn't really fit the pinball thing, but I think that would be cool. I don't know your thoughts on it, but... Tasteless and mods usually go together hand right Absolutely Absolutely Yeah yeah And Tim just for reference Tim Sexton did the programming on this game too So it be very interesting to see how this one came out Yeah Some fresh blood right Yeah Well that what you need to keep it all fresh What are your takes on the game itself So Black Knight the original one I 43 years old So that gives you kind of a time reference But Black Knight was one of the games that I remember Rapid Simon T sack' I'm really excited about the art. I love the art on it, how it's kind of a touch of old school. I love the music that I've heard in the trailers. I love the fact that it has that upper playfield that's very reminiscent of the first two designs without maybe being a copycat. And the shots look good. Unless I play it and something just doesn't add up after I do, I'm in. Steve Ritchie has such a way of making a game flow that it's almost hard to hate it, even if you don't like the theme or you might not like the premise of the game. But just with how his machines flow real well, I don't see how it's not a great game. I know a couple months ago we played Black Knight 2000 for the first time, and that was just a real fun game. I mean, it's not deep by today's standards, you know, the Black Knight 2000, not the Sword of Rage that's coming out. The Out Pinball Podcast is a production of WILLY WANKA. www.mYou inconsistent Nakosa Dialogues www.n BereichPinballKernstein.com &Brese estrg Funá This is Stern's first game in a long time that's not an intellectual property, so I'm really curious to see what happens as far as sales go. Not that we'll ever be able to tell, but if this takes off, I could see them redoing other themes. And if there was a game that I would love to see Steve Ritchie redo again, it would be Getaway. But we can hope and pray on that one. I agree. So I may give a little bit of a different take here of why I'm rooting for this game. I'm a fan of non-licensed IPs, non-licensed pins. I think if you look in the history of pinball, some of the titles that kind of stand head and shoulders above are the Black Knights, the Getaways, the High Speeds, the Medieval Madness, the Attack from Mars. There's a theme there of games that used to be really good without needing the leverage of a license. I think a license, while it can draw in people that maybe aren't hardcore pinball players, I think sometimes a game can be good or even better on its own accord when it's not limited by those restrictions that come with licensing. And I really hope that Black Knight does well, because if it does, it will set a precedent for Stern to maybe consider more titles in the future that aren't licensed and realize that they I'm seeing how this game can be a sales hit and you mentioned one of my favorites would be high speed if they did a high speed 3 I think that kind of it's depending on what happens with this title and I hope it does well for that reason Absolutely, yeah. You think about, you know, with licensing and how handcuffed some of these guys are creatively as far as the game goes, let alone art. And then, you know, and then animations and stuff like that and what stuff you have, you know, what property you have rights to use and what stuff is off the table. You know, like pirates, they couldn't use Johnny Depp and whatever. So, you know, as much as I like the non-licensed themes, I really think that it adds even more to it because then it's, you know, every single aspect of the game creates, you know, the creativity on the playfield to the artwork to the animations on the display. Everything is just a blank canvas that you can do whatever you want and it's really refreshing to see what their intake is now versus 30 years ago when Steve did this game. I agree. Yeah, blank canvas is a great way to put it. Yep. So you want to do some drain it or save it? We shall do some drain it or save it. It's time for this week's edition of Drain It or Save It. Drain It or Save It is brought to you by our friends at learmods.com. Visit learmods.com for custom quality mods and play field lighting for your pinball machine. That's L-E-R-M-O-D-S. LearMods.com today. And a special shout out to Rob and Kim, great seeing you in Texas and hope you guys are doing well after Texas. Alright Bill, so starting with the first category or first question, restarting a game early after a bad ball or house ball, what do you think? Is that something that you find yourself doing? Drain it or save it? Which one? I have to drain that just because you never get better by draining the by dropping the first you know the game after a first ball you know it doesn't write you to actually persevere and still try and make the game into something and some of the best games I've ever had are on ball two and three how long ago was it that you that you restarted one you know what's it been like two years with Adams family because I love had a goal of making it through the entire house on This is a production of WGBH. How about you? You're draining it. So I'm gonna drain it, but I have a little bit of a confession. So my resolution at the beginning of this year was to stop doing this. And I guess my, I'm, I get frustrated, right? That first ball comes down and I'll tell you the one that I'm most guilty of, and probably the one I can thank for solving me of this is TNA, right? So total nuclear annihilation, when that ball starts in that lower area down there and you've got your flippers amped up and standard power it can find the dream really quick and I found myself like wanting to restart but the problem is the restart in TNA and anybody that owns it will know is super slow it takes forever for it to reset and finally after that resolution I was like you know what some of my biggest ball blow ups have been are my biggest That did not sound right. Some of my biggest blow-ups in a game took place after a bad first ball. And since stopping doing that, I've had a lot more success, so I will definitely drain it. But I'm also admitting that I am not perfect at doing that every time. If we were, we'd be playing competitively. Yes, yes, that's true. That's true. I have high expectations of myself and I think that's part of the problem. So, well, moving on to the second one. Waiting in line to play pinball at a show. Drain it or save it. What do you think? So this is a special one for you and I since we just literally went through this a week ago today. Well, you know, nine days or ten days from whenever you listen. I have to drain that. I'm not a big fan of waiting in line to play a machine. I cannot imagine that anybody would say they are. This is kind of a trick question because I always try to look at both sides of things so I'm looking at it like there is pros to waiting in line but I still have to dream it. You can watch people mess up and see what not to do but I would rather learn that myself I will definitely dream it but I will tell you this even at Texas when I was waiting in those lines and I would get frustrated some of the best conversations and some of the coolest people I met randomly happened while I was waiting in line to play a machine And I think that one thing that happens that you get some social interaction that you wouldn otherwise Makes sense. Makes complete sense. Yep. All right. We'll move, moving on to the third one. Moving out lane posts to make a game easier. Drain it or save it. What do you think? I'm not a professional player. So honestly, mine are moved down to keep the game play a little longer. Yeah, I appreciate your honesty. I think I, that's perfectly acceptable. And what about you? So I do it based on the game. I always look at them when I get like a game, you know, and especially new in box games So you know that the factory is sending the game as the designer wants it to play. So I try to maintain that, but I am going to save it because I have been known to do it. If there is a game that I feel like maybe isn't playing as long as it should or I'm not getting deep enough in the game and yeah, I'm not the world's best pinball player. I'm not a super talented competitive player. I do this for enjoyment. I do it for fun. For me to only see one tenth of a game, because maybe my talent level isn't where it's supposed to be, I don't think that that is what the designer is going for. I think those things are adjustable for a reason. It's not some major faux pas that's, you know, you should have a scarlet letter on you because you moved posts. Yeah, it's not a liver or kidney, who cares? Right, right. I mean, it's meant to be, it's meant to have fun, and if that's how you enjoy it, that's how you enjoy it. Absolutely. Alright, so a recap on our drain it or save it here. So I think we both drained the restarting a game, even though we've had some prior experiences where we didn't do that. Waiting in line, we both drained it, but you know, there are some pros, but generally we frown upon that and drain that. And the final is moving out lane posts and we both saved that to enhance gameplay. We agreed on everything, didn't we? We did. We're all in this together, we're all in this together, we're all in this together. and i and we were we are doing this because you have a uh... a of fairly large collection i have a decent size collection and uh... you know we we know some other people that have uh... larger collections that run into problems so what's your idea of a good sized collection so i am uh... i'm gonna I think the maximum amount that serves the owner is probably between two and six. I think six is where you start anything above that, you start not being able to play titles as much as maybe you should to justify their existence, to justify what they cost and to justify the space they take up. How about you? You know what, honestly, I'm at, let me think here, I got nine in the basement now, and it almost gets a little much. You know what, I figure you throw in two dream themes or, you know, grill pins that aren't leaving, bolted to the ground, and then figure two more just visiting sections, I'd say between four and seven, you know, just depending. I think that's fair. How many do you have now? What did you say? Well, there's nine in the basement. You know, a couple aren't mine, though. But, you know, I'm fostering some and then, you know, I got a game out that's being fostered. So, and those are, you know, the one that's being fostered right now is a Terminator 2 and it's just, I've done everything you can, but I'm not getting rid of it. So, right, right.

22:41

Well, I have 20 that are in use that are in my game area. I have a Trident that I actually received from a guy up northeast STI, which is my last shipping experience. The back box was a parallelogram when I got it off the pallet. It was completely trashed, so I'm still working on getting that back to where it should be. The Out Pinball Podcast is a production of WGBH. All of this is on our website at www.infinityincon.com. Thanks for watching. And I'll see you next time. Bye! The Out Pinball Podcast is a production of WGBH. Yeah, that's, uh, we need to let that lie. I'm telling you, man, that's getting legs. You know what? All right, so anyone that's listening that hasn't listened to that last episode that Chris and Jason will ever do, you need to go back and listen to that, their final episode. I would listen to it, but I would get sentimental because I was comfortable at my own digs back there. I appreciate the new opportunity, but I don't want to get sentimental. Hey, we're pushing boundaries though, right? Yeah, as far as, you know, this space consideration thing, you know, everybody has a vice. What is the saying? Never trust a man without a vice. Well, I have two. One is scotch and the other is pinball. And I figure in the realm of addictions, in the realm of things that you have too many of, pinball is pretty mild. Yeah, you know what, I mean, between money and space, it's always a toss up on, you know, John Popadiuk, Automated Amusements, Jerry Klyce, Zach Meny, Wally Williams, I have to figure out, A, if I have the space. Usually I'm trying to unload something and it's not for monetary reasons as much as it is just simply space. And, yeah, you know, I've got to make sure now I'm at the point where I have to make sure that I really, really like the game because it's taken up precious space and it's taking up precious funds for pinball, you know, and what about you? What about you? Honestly, it's a big, I agree with you. I think it's more of a space issue than anything else. You know, I mean, obviously it's always a money issue too. Well, you know, I always get nervous about having too much money into something that I'm not sure about. So I have to love the game in order to justify spending the money. So yeah, I mean, that's kind of where I'm at with it. And then, you know, I mean, at what point do you say, hey man, maybe I have a problem? Right. I there The Out Pinball Podcast is a production of WGBH I don't want the machine as much as I don't want to not have it. It's hard to describe. I remember my dad used to say when I was younger and I was dating when I first started out, he was like, don't stay with a girl because you don't want anybody else to have her. Stay with her because you want her. And I was like, that's great advice because I kind of find myself doing that with pinball. I may not be playing that Gorgar enough to justify its existence, but I just don't want to lose it, and that doesn't make sense. So I know I have a problem. I know. With pinball, though, I mean, here, like, I have Baywatch. Now, it's not the greatest game, you know, on pin side or whatever else, but I really like it. And it does need a vault. I think it would be awesome as a vault. And I'd be in on one. So, you know, Stern, pay attention. The Out Pinball Podcast is a production of WGBH. We're sickin'! Your wife, awesome lady, love her to death. Thank you. She seems so patient that I'm sure you could get away with the murder of doing all this. So, that's also another problem. You know me all too well, and you know Cindy all too well. She is tolerant of all bullshit that I do, and maybe to a fault. And she is very supportive of anything I do, including pinball and this podcast, I'm a fan of your podcast and the podcast I did before this one and I'm lucky. I really am and that's part of the problem is I know I don't have that person barking at me like a lot of people do to stop, you know. Oh yeah, honestly it's not that way at my house. I've actually come to figuring out the best way to move a pinball machine while the wife is at work just so she doesn't realize what's going on because literally, you know, it seemed like every couple months we're wheeling in a new machine through the kitchen and she'd be like, really? Another one? John Popadiuk, Automated Amusements, Jerry Klyce, Zach Meny, multiball, backglass, Dennis Kriesel, Danny Klyce, Jerry Klyce, Zach Meny, You know, just all these creative things that, you know, she likes to do to slow me down from pinball. So you are very fortunate. Do you notice that once you get to a certain number of machines, that if you can somehow get them in your basement, that your significant other doesn't notice that it's a different machine? Because I'm there. I can get a new machine as long as I get it moved in when she's not home. She doesn't even realize it. Yes, yes, that is absolutely true. The only difference is, is she doesn't notice anything other than the Jersey Jack stuff. You know, like she saw Wizard of Oz and she knew, you know. Yeah, it's a little flashier, right? Yeah. Right, yeah. Other than that, we've moved T2 out and she didn't even realize that it was gone.