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DPP #121 "The John Wick reveal"

Don's Pinball Podcast (regular feed)·podcast_episode·40m 29s·analyzed·May 8, 2024
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Analysis

claude-haiku-4-5-20251001 · $0.031

TL;DR

Don's analysis of John Wick release: no guns, mediocre mechs, poor LE value justify his decision to pass.

Summary

Don Beck reviews the Stern Pinball John Wick release day, discussing the absence of guns from the licensed game despite the IP's gun-centric nature, comparing it to previous Stern releases like Venom and Jaws. He analyzes the playfield mechanics, three-tier pricing structure, and overall value proposition, ultimately deciding against purchasing any edition due to expression light costs and insufficient mechanical differentiation between tiers.

Key Claims

  • Jeff at MadPinball reports selling more John Wick Pros on day one than Jaws at equivalent point in its release cycle

    medium confidence · Don reached out to MadPinball.com on release day; Jeff reported strong Pro sales but only one LE remaining from initial allotment

  • John Wick LE lacks gun representation on cabinet imagery despite guns being the core identity of the John Wick IP

    high confidence · Don discovered this during live stream reveal; notes no firearms represented on cabinet pictorial images, front, or playfield

  • The license holder (Lionsgate/John Wick IP owner) did not want guns on the cabinet

    medium confidence · Don discusses this as the apparent reason for lack of gun representation, though notes Stern has not formally confirmed exact reasoning

  • John Wick gameplay is comparable to a hybrid of Venom and James Bond in structure

    high confidence · Don describes it as 'equal parts James Bond and Venom'; compares two-flipper layout, back ramp configuration, and bash mech to Venom specifically

  • Expression lights ($500+ for cabinet kit, potentially more for matched back box kit) are preventing Don from upgrading to Premium due to unavoidable future costs

    high confidence · Don's stated reason for passing on Premium: he wants to DIY upgrades but cannot replicate expression lights affordably, so premium does not justify $3,000 cost over Pro

Notable Quotes

  • “John Wick. He's a man. He's a Keanu man. He ain't got no guns, let's go!”

    Don Beck @ Opening — Captures the central irony of the John Wick release—the iconic gun-heavy IP lacks gun representation on the pinball machine

  • “We build a virtual version of this game, a false version, in our heads... when the game comes out, it doesn't jive with that preconceived notion that you have in your head.”

    Don Beck @ Early segment — Articulates the hype-to-reality gap phenomenon in pinball community reactions, explaining initial negativity toward new releases

  • “Jaws is the game that I play every day. I go down there, flip it on and it's like, I gotta play a couple games of Jaws.”

    Don Beck @ Mid-segment — Demonstrates Jaws' strong player retention and personal enjoyment despite initial community criticism about missing shark-eats-ball mechanic

  • “If you were going to take my building out of Godzilla and give me a car that drifts around, I'd be a little upset with you. Probably a little bit, probably plus two more than upset.”

    Don Beck @ Mechanical analysis — Compares John Wick's car mechanism unfavorably to Godzilla's collapsing building, setting that as the mechanical bar for modern Stern games

  • “My level of enthusiasm is somewhere between 11,000 and 11,500 for this game... If it was 11, I'd have my deposit in.”

    Don Beck @ Pricing analysis — Quantifies the gap between Don's perceived value ($11,250) and MSRP ($13,000) for John Wick LE

  • “If I saw a John Wick LE for $9,000 I wouldn't even hesitate. I wouldn't ask my wife to later. I would ask for forgiveness. I wouldn't ask for permission.”

    Don Beck @ Pricing segment — Establishes Don's true valuation ceiling ($9,000) as comparison point to Venom's current secondary market pricing

  • “That is the high-water mark. That is where the bar is set in pinball in order to be really wowed, knock my socks off, exceed my expectations... the Godzilla building collapse.”

    Don Beck — Establishes Godzilla's building collapse as the mechanical standard against which modern Stern games are judged

Entities

Don BeckpersonJohn WickgameStern PinballcompanyJeff (MadPinball.com)personKerry HardypersonGodzillagameJawsgame

Signals

  • ?

    business_signal: Stern appears to be using expression lights as primary mechanical differentiator between Pro and Premium tiers rather than substantive gameplay features

    medium · Don notes Premium upgrades (medallion opener, briefcase mechanism) are 'not very compelling' and do 'nothing for gameplay'; expression lights become the headline feature justifying $3,000 price delta

  • ?

    community_signal: Don's immediate on-stream reaction and subsequent analysis suggests John Wick's gun absence was a surprise to informed community, indicating potential licensing contingency not communicated during lead-up

    medium · Don states 'I didn't notice that' gun absence during initial livestream reveal; discovered it 'in real time during the live stream'; suggests disconnect between IP expectations and execution

  • ?

    competitive_signal: Godzilla's collapsing building mechanism has become the industry benchmark for mechanical 'wow factor' that modern Stern games are now judged against

    high · Don explicitly states Godzilla building collapse is 'the high-water mark' and 'where the bar is set'; uses it as measuring stick to evaluate John Wick's car mechanism as insufficient by comparison

  • ?

    design_philosophy: John Wick playfield lacks three-dimensional sculpted pieces compared to recent Stern games, relying primarily on ramps and simple mechs rather than environmental detail

    medium · Don states 'what there's not going on is a lot of three-dimensional sculpted pieces'; specifically laments missing cityscape similar to Godzilla's; notes most art is on cabinet exterior rather than playfield

  • ?

Transcript

groq_whisper · $0.121

0:00
John Wick. He's a man. He's a Keanu man. He ain't got no guns, let's go! 121. Don Beck without a gun. Let's get with it. New game release day was finally here. I'm going to talk about it all on this episode right here.
0:30
Internet. Pinball hobby. I asked to just drag the new game. And boy, did you not disappoint. If anybody was around the social media today, as it was the release day of Stern Pinball, the pinball jungler dot companies, 65th game or something, John Wick, we knew it was coming. It was rumored. Then they dropped that teaser, and then we were going to get all the news today, except at the beginning of the week it said the news was going to be released throughout the week, but then it also said everything was going to come today. Forget it. We were freaking out. Well, at least I was. In my defense I was at work, it was busy I'm checking the internet in between things And then when I finally get a moment to be like Okay, what's going on It turns out things aren't being released until later in the week And it's like, I need to make a decision It was all coming from a place of hype I was really hyped on this game I wanted to love this game so much We got all the release things today We got trailer, we got gameplay footage We got Seth Davis doing Some kind of live stream and things I haven't even seen all the content or anything, but I've just been peeking in here and there. But I was able to watch not only the official release videos, but also some of the reaction videos on the Internet. And Kerry Hardy won that Twippy for a ding-dang reason, man. He was in rare form. I don't know if his YouTube video has already been taken down like he was threatening, but that was raw emotion. Him, his Chipotle, fresh off the gym, and just giving it straight, man. So let's get into it. Now, I was being a little bit facetious, but coming from a place of love and tenderness, when I put out the call, like, Stern, release the game already so we can go out and hate it. I say that because that's initially the reaction you see amongst the loudmouths of the Internet and the pinball forums and the content-creating spots that we exist in. And I'll speak a little bit to that. I ran out of time on the last show to get that before I did the Tales of the Crypt livestream. But another livestream where I talk about it later. But I want to address it here. Okay, now what I meant, and there's some truth to this, is the new game gets bashed. It gets bashed by the people that love and follow pinball the most, and there's a reason for it. There's a reason. It's not strictly malice, although there are miscreants and misanthropes out there. No, what happens is, for those of us that are passionate about this enough to really follow the rumors and let ourselves buy into the hype, you know, for when a new game comes out, what happens is we build a virtual version of this game, a false version, in our heads. You know, we think about the things that we would want to see in the game because only we live in our own heads. And so, you know, I came up with kind of like a neo-noir, modern cityscape, but really like dark colors, muted tones, and maybe a flash of green, a flash of purple. Right? And like that's kind of, you know, something that would have come out of Dark Knight or something, you know, like that type of movie. And, of course, I'm not designing the game, so I don't expect the people to realistically build what is in my own brain. and they can probably do something that's much better, actually. But inevitably, that's a word, when the game comes out, it doesn't jive with that preconceived notion that you have in your head. Think about like when your wife has already kind of had an argument rehearsed in her head and then you walk into the room fresh from the sewer, hi, honey, I'm here, and then like she just picks up from where she left off of the argument that was started before you even got there. And it's like, well, how are you going to compete with that? I don't know if that's the right analogy, and wise, don't send me too much hate here. But I think guys can understand that. You know, we have this concept in our brains, right? Like, I know what I want John Wick to be like because I haven't seen leaks or anything. I just created it whole hot hog in my brain. And then the game comes out, and obviously it's not that. So then that interplay between what I have built myself up to want versus what I'm given is different. So there's like a little take back, like, oh, gosh, I wish this would have been like that. even if the game is great, even if the game is fantastic. Look at Jaws, especially Jaws Premium and LE. What a freaking game that is, man. And what was the first thing we saw when we saw that? Oh, the shark doesn't eat the ball. Because in our brains, that was like the bottom low-hanging fruit of a mech, right? You've got a shark game based on Jaws. Jaws shark eats things that eat ball thing, right? Obviously, Stern thought of that, too. There's a reason they didn't do it. I don't know if it was a good reason or a bad reason or a save money reason or a doesn't really work reason or whatever. Maybe reliability issues. Maybe the mech they built had like a 12% failure rate and their threshold is 11% so they didn't put it in there. Whatever it is. There's probably a reason behind it and we'll probably never know exactly what that reason was. But because it didn't have what we had kind of conceived in our heads, we were initially like, oh, man, this game sucks, right? and then we got to see some gameplay and then saw all the assets that were in the game and then got to play it and then got it home and unboxed it and it's like, my god, Jaws is like my favorite game. I put it right neck and neck with Godzilla in terms of positive ownability, in terms of I keep going back and playing more games. I have 15 games downstairs in my house now. Jaws is the game that I play every day. I go down there, flip it on and it's like, I gotta play a couple games of Jaws. I wanna go play in the bounty hunts, you know. I wander over to Spooky Corner and I'm playing my Looney Tunes and I jump into the TCM and I'm having a good time with that, jump on Elvira, jump on Stranger Things. But the game that I play every day has been Jaws Premium. And I've been just lovingly restoring that game and adding things to it, restoring it. It's brand new. You know, powder coating every little bit of metal I can get my fingers on, making a little fast food garbage for the play field, all kinds of fun stuff, right? I'm just having a good time in that world. I'm playing around like it's my own little model railroad, right? Like I'm at the Dietz's house and I'm up in the attic and I'm playing with the model of the town that I built from Beetlejuice, right? I'm putting the Zagnut out there and the little fly and everything and, hey, nice freaking model, right? What was it? The Passion Pit? What was that? That House of Ill Repute that Beetle just, no, not Beetle just put in there, but the other lady, Large Marge put in there. Anyway,
@ Mechanical benchmark

  • “The reason I'm not getting it is because of expression lights... that's $500 at current prices. And that's just for the cabinet expression lights.”

    Don Beck @ Final decision rationale — Reveals the specific blocker for Don's purchase: aftermarket expression light costs make Premium economically illogical given DIY upgrade path

    • Venomgame
    James Bond (Cornerstone)game
    Scott Dediciperson
    Foo Fightersgame
    Tales from the Cryptgame
    Big Lebowskigame
    Led Zeppelingame
    Lionsgate / John Wick IP Holdercompany
    Galactic Tank Forcegame

    design_philosophy: John Wick playfield design borrows mechanical concepts (van ramp from Foo Fighters, two-flipper + back ramps from Venom) rather than introducing novel mechanisms

    high · Don catalogs the van ramp 'in exactly the same location' as Foo Fighters; compares overall layout structure directly to Venom's two-flipper/back-ramp design; notes lack of standout novelty vs Godzilla building

  • ?

    licensing_signal: John Wick IP license holder restricted gun representation on pinball cabinet despite guns being the central identity of the film franchise

    medium · Don discusses license holder not wanting guns on cabinet; notes comparable licensed games (Deadpool, James Bond, Indiana Jones) have gun representation, suggesting deliberate restriction specific to John Wick deal

  • $

    market_signal: John Wick Pro outselling Jaws Pro at equivalent point in release cycle; LE market softness requires slow-burn code update strategy rather than initial sales juggernaut

    medium · Jeff at MadPinball reports more Pros sold day-one vs Jaws; Don predicts Venom-like sales pattern; notes LEs still available new in box for Jaws indicating softer LE demand environment

  • $

    market_signal: Expression lights priced at $500+ for cabinet kit (potentially $1000+ for matched cabinet+backbox) undermine Premium tier value proposition by creating unavoidable future costs for DIY upgraders

    high · Don states $500 current price for cabinet expression lights; notes this is blocker preventing Premium purchase since Premium does not justify $3,000 over Pro if owner must DIY anyway; suggests expression light kit pricing should be clearer in purchasing decision

  • ?

    product_strategy: John Wick three-tier pricing shows mechanical feature parity between Pro and Premium that may not justify $3,000 delta, pushing cost-conscious LE buyers down to Pro tier

    high · Don reports hearing from 'people that are typically LE buyers' now saying they'll just buy Pro because Premium upgrades don't justify $3,000 cost; he questions if Premium's additions are '$3,000 worth of upgrades'

  • ?

    product_concern: John Wick car mechanism scaled disproportionately small relative to Continental building playfield element, creating visual/thematic inconsistency

    medium · Don notes Jenkins pointed out scale mismatch; Don jokes 'Continental building is actually the garage' to explain size discrepancy; suggests possible oversight in playfield ergonomics/aesthetics

  • ~

    sentiment_shift: Strong early community negativity on social media day-of-release contrasts with actual sales performance and post-hype stabilization pattern seen with Jaws

    medium · Don notes 'internet vitriol' and people 'bashing' the game upon release, but distributor reports strong Pro sales; Don predicts slow-burn resurgence with code updates similar to Jaws trajectory

    • 6:57
    that's like how I'm playing with Jaws. So Jaws is great and initially it was full of hate, right right was but you know jaws though when i did walk up and play the game the game was phenomenal so john wick can very well be well it's not gonna be jaws but it's gonna be a lot better than the hate that it is getting right now it is thick man i was being kind of tongue and cheek facetious look at me little cute don from the the pinball show that i do um you know let's let's all get out there and and give it hell right you know um but boy did it come and it came from a place that I did not expect. And initially, I didn't actually even notice. You know, I watched the live stream reveal at 11 a.m. Central Time, noon Eastern, with everybody else. And I was like, okay, okay, I get it. All right, there's the car, right? I heard about the car, heard about the ramps and everything. But I didn't notice that in the pictorial images on the side of the cabinet, the front of the cabinet, the playfield, there There are no firearms represented at all. And, yeah, yikes, guys. That is, like, the de rigueur, right, or the raison d'etre of John Wick is the freaking guns, man. It's gunplay. Bang, bang, bang, bang, bang. Now, I am not a huge American amosexual, you know, like some of the Second Amendment crusaders out there. You know, I won't weigh in any further than that. But when I have my fantasy content, I want it to live up to what it is, right? You go see a horror movie, you want to see teenagers slashed open. When you go on the interstate, you don't want to see that because that's real life, right? But we're allowed to be scary in movies. We're allowed to be scary on TV. We're allowed to be scary and super creepy in books. Have you guys seen books? Oh, my God, they're full of filth. Just pages and pages of the most disgusting things. Grandma's sitting over there giggling to herself. What the heck is she reading? Take a look at what grandma's reading sometime. It's the filthiest thing you'd ever find. Like, hello, penthouse forum. No way, man. It's like ten times as creepier as that. And this goes back into antiquity, right? Look at the stuff that Shakespeare was doing and Catching the Rye and Lola and all this business. Books are freaking creepy, man. All right, so we are allowed to be scary in a pinball machine, right? If we are borrowing from that content, you get carte blanche to go in there. And this is a French heavy episode. And just go crazy. Like, I'm looking at Tales from the Crypt, right? Grotesque Crypt Keeper right on there. That's what I want to see. Crude jokes are in this game. You start the game and he's like, here's the man with the three balls, right? Because it's just double entendre or triple entendre in that case. And we're getting with the French. You know, if you pick a wrong door in the video mode, there's a hanging noose body, trigger warning, right? I mean, it's real. It's everything we want from Tales from the Crypt. That's what we expect. I wanted to see John Wick gun bang, bang, blowing things up. and, boy, doesn't even have a gun, and nary a call-out? Maybe we'll hear his voice in the recorded footage. I don't know yet. But, you know, there's just some interplay between, of course, it's not going to live up to the expectation in your head, so there was that, but also no guns. What's the reason for that? I don know that we ever hear the real one I think what come out so far is that the license holder didn want guns on the cabinet Have you looked at Deadpool James Bond Johnny Mnemonic Indiana Jones didn't even use a gun in the movie but once, and then there's a gun for the shooter hand. What are we doing here, man? It's like Terminator without guns.
    10:23
    That's the movie. Gameplay-wise, things I was thinking, we saw Scott Dedici come out with Final Resistance for the P3 platform, and it's got that launch mech that fires the balls out of the cannon from that spaceship back in the back, boom, boom, boom, real fast. So in my mind, I'm thinking if I was designing a John Wick game of gun-fu, fighting, and quick action, maybe have a mode where balls get locked around the play field and then all of a sudden John's surrounded and bang, bang, bang, they pop out for a multi-ball with the shaker motors going off and you get the flash of the lights and the gun smoke in the air. That's what I was expecting. Instead, we got something that was, I don't know, like a GTF version of Stern's Venom. Is that a bad comparison? I've heard people say it's equal parts James Bond and Venom. Okay, apt, apt. I think it's apt. Now, I think the game, especially the LE, looks amazing. I'm going to get that out of the way right there. The LE looks amazing. The gameplay looks fun. I'm dying to check out the code and the assets that are in the game. I think that's what's going to sell this. I think that's like 50-50 as far as like the layout and the art is half of the game. The other half is going to come from this code and this theme integration and what Stern's doing with, you know, what they're calling AI, which I want to get into here in a little bit. But I think that's going to sell the game.
    11:45
    And from my reports, the game is selling. Reach out to Jeff from MadPinball.com, sponsor of the show, friend of the show, my homie, the purveyor of my tales from the crypt that he brought to me at work to set up in the break room. How cool is that? On-site delivery. Thank you, Jeff, for that. Email Jeff at MadPinball.com if you want to get yourself a John Wick, which I don't think it's a bad idea to get one if you're into it. I'm getting to that, too. But I reached out, and it's like it's day one. It's like the game's only been released for about six hours at this point. And I was like, hey, man, how's it going? How are the sales going? How are your premiums going? He said he's selling more pros already than Jaws at this point, last release, which was great. He's got one LE left from his initial allotment. He's trying to get some more in there. And he's got a few premiums left is what he told me. Okay, fine. Distributors always tell you they got just one more. But, I mean, he's not giving me the hard sell. He's like, hey, man, I got your premium here. What do you want to do about it? And I'll tell you what I did about it a little bit later in the program. but what he's saying is there's a lot of internet vitriol and everything but people are buying the game, this is a Stern release and somebody else put a comment on the Facebook page a day or so ago and said look Stern's got a stellar track record their last 20 releases, how many duds were there like true duds you've got gameplay duds and you've got financial duds maybe Venom would be a financial dud but the game was super fun I owned it, loved it So aside from Led Zeppelin and, God, what was the other one that he was kind of a dog that Stern released? His name is escaping me.
    13:19
    But other than just a few missteps, their games have been fairly solid. So this will be a good playing game. It's going to come out, and the code is going to be .8 or something. And then by next year, when we get 1.0 code, the game is going to probably have a resurgent, a little bit of a slow burn. Is this going to be a sales juggernaut long term? I don't know. Is this something that's going to move 1,000 limited editions? Is it going to move them out of the factory, and then is it going to move them out of the distributors? Yeah, that's to be seen. Venom didn't do that. Jaws still hasn't done that. There's still Jaws new in boxes available, LEs. So I think sales-wise this has to follow kind of the Venom trend, especially with the downturn of the market. If this was a year and a half ago, these would be sold out. The LEs would be spoken for. But we live in the now here. We live in the now. This is John Wick. John Wick with no guns. I discovered this in real time during the live stream that I did earlier today on Facebook where we went through the trailer live, and it was just fun. Organically, it was a moment. It was a moment. So I don't want to go through the game and just go shot for shot. I'm sure other people are going to do that, probably do it well better than I am, but I'll make some comparisons and things. There's the three ramps in the game. There's the cityscape in the back. I would have liked to see more sculpted shapes and things. I do like what they did with the green plastics. Normally, they wouldn't do something like that, and the plastic protector community would have came through with a $30 gift bag of plastics, like we did with Foo Fighters. But I do like what they did there. It borrows kind of from the vibe of Galactic Tank Force a bit. This game has been compared to a combination of Bond and Venom. Now, that is apt, okay? That is apt. It's a two-flipper game. Venom was a two-flipper game. It had a bunch of ramps at the back, third of the play field. This does that as well. And I said, well, wait, John Wick's got a bit more going on. But does it really? You know, if we compare Venom That had the carnage shot that would go backwards Towards the cryptorium or whatever You know, we got the car here You know, it was kind of like a bash mech So they both have a bash mech There's a diverter back there, of course Jaws Premium had that great diverter that had three different positions in it Pretty brilliant And then a couple other diverters to change around the ball path and everything I like the pop bumper in the club Back there on this game I like the balls that lock up above it and then drop in there That's kind of cool So there's enough going on in the back there to the play field. What there's not going on is a lot of three-dimensional sculpted pieces. Like I would have liked to see, like Godzilla had that cityscape towards the back. I would have liked to see a little bit more of that. But tis what it is. This is what we got.
    15:48
    Jenkins has pointed out that, like, the bash car is really out of scale from the Continental building. Okay, and I joked maybe the Continental building is actually the garage, and there's room for two vehicles in there, and maybe that's what they went with. I don't know. I'll have to see what's coming from that. I would have really liked it if there was some mech that was on par with what we saw in Godzilla, that giant collapsing building. I think that is the high-water mark. That is where the bar is set in pinball in order to be really wowed, knock my socks off, exceed my expectations. That's what I want to see. That's the feeling I got the first time I saw Godzilla Premium, and I saw what the building could do. I saw that in person. I didn't even see that online. I was at TPF, so kind of new into the hobby at this level, and I was like, oh, this is that Godzilla game people are talking about. I'm not really attracted to the license, but I'll go ahead and play it. I'm here. There's no line, whatever. And then I saw the building collapse, and I'm like, I am sold. Where can I get this game? Can I get one? And then I found out there was a year-long waiting list. So there's not anything compelling in John Wick for that. So it's never going to be great because that is such a great mech. Not every game has to live up to that level, but, like, that's the level where if you hit it, I am blown freaking away. So if you were aiming for that, like, that's what you should get. So what else do we got? We got a couple more ramps. All right. But, okay, so they took the van ramp from Foo Fighters, and it's in exactly the same location. Probably because that shot works really well. Sound like a bit of an apologist, but I didn't design the thing. I'm just telling you what's there. So that's there. Venom didn't really have that. Venom had the fast lock system. Venom didn't really have a whole lot of stand-up targets, and there are more stand-ups and bash things in this game.
    17:19
    Venom did have the doppelganger. We don't have a mech like that. We've got a briefcase that flips open and down. I guess it's technically a weapons locker. Technically, it's a piece of checked luggage, I guess, is what it is. It functions as a diverter. It's clever. I like that it's there. But what's missing with this game, and this is where it borrows from Bond, is that there's not really compelling mechanisms between the Pro and the Premium Limited LE editions, right? Like, let's look at it. Like, honestly, what are we missing? When you get the Pro, there's that little medallion thing with the two thumbprints in it. I've only seen the first John Wick film, so fill me in on what that thing does. but on the Pro Premium or Premium LE, it opens and shuts. It looks like it's made out of plastic. It's got some light boards in it. And on the Pro, it's just a flat plastic with the lights in it. But honestly, it does the same thing. It conveys the same information. So, you know, while it looks like something cool to have on the Premium and if it was an upgrade available for the Pro, man, I'd think about getting it. You know, it's not terribly compelling. And when you compare that to Bond, what's in the same location on the James Bond Cornerstone release? you have the underwater action figure battle which okay again it's kind of cool and if i had a pro and that was offered maybe i would think about getting it but it does nothing for gameplay and honestly most of the times that i play the game i don't even notice to look down there it's dark most of the time and when it does light up i feel like if i look down to enjoy this undersea battle i'm gonna miss whatever the ball is doing i'm gonna drain or something so it's like when i'm playing the game i don't even notice it at all i'm not looking for it i wouldn't miss it if it gone like it does nothing blah you know so that's kind of like how i compare that right if it wasn't there would we notice is it cool that it's there yeah kind of if it was an upgrade would you get it if you had the pro maybe you know it's not then that's what it is so what else do we got we got the uh the car the car kind of swings out you know i was joking i was like somebody call american pinball somebody stole one of their hot wheel cars i'm kidding i'm kidding it's clearly a matchbox but it slides out and they're like it has this drift in it okay cool so you know it's definitely not the fin mech from Jaws right it's like the fin mech from Jaws if it was a tenth of the size you get this little movement here it's clever I'll give it that it is clever I like the clever car that comes out on Big Lebowski on the upper play field that's fun to bash I think that's clever too so at least give it that it's interesting I don't hate the thing if you were going to take my building out of Godzilla and give me a car that drifts around, I'd be a little upset with you. Probably a little bit, probably plus two more than upset. But it's there. Okay, fine. And the car on the Pro, I guess it just, it's got a little bit of a movement there maybe. Bashes, booms around. Maybe it's on hydraulics. I don't know. But, you know, that is what it is. What else do we get? We get the weapons attache case. It pops open and close. On the Pro, it just stays open and functions as a little bash paddle target or something. Alright. But is that $3,000 worth of upgrades? Maybe there's a little diverter in the back where the ball locked before they drop into the club But honestly That not very compelling What I hearing from people because I talk to folks is people that are typically LE buyers are now saying you know what, I want this game, it's the new Stern, but I'm just going to get the Pro because I just don't think there's enough there there to justify not only the $3,000 more for the Premium, but the $6,000 more for the $13,000 Limited Edition. Now, that being said, the Limited Edition, I think it looks great. I love the art on the side. I love the Invisiglass that comes with the Shaker Motor it comes with. I like the mirrored back glass. I think that's going to look just flipping amazing. Amazing here. Like top shelf. I love that. Like looking back at the last several back glasses that came out, I think that's the best one Stern's had in the last four releases. So I love that back glass. I love the look. I love the expression lights. I love that they're there. I love the effect that they do. I'm gushing over this game, man. Now, am I buying an LE? I'm not. Do I think it's worth $13,000? I don't. I have a huge level of enthusiasm for the limited edition John Wick machine that I saw revealed today. Okay. And I have a price tag on my level of enthusiasm for it. And that price tag does not match up with the MSRP price tag that they're selling this for. So for me, that's a decision no. And the way I feel about that, it's like I'm not going to buy the LE and I feel totally okay about that. Right. I don't feel like I'm missing out by not getting it. If it was closer, if it was like 11.5, I would be like, oh, Hyman and Han, like, should I, shouldn't I? That's closer to my level. If it was 11, I'd have my deposit in. So my level of enthusiasm is somewhere between 11,000 and 11,500 for this game. Okay. And part of that is because of, you know, what I discussed, what I'm seeing, the complexity of the mechanisms. You know, I don't, I'm not blown away by the art on the play field itself. I think all of that art is on the outside of the cabinet. And the back glass looks amazing. And the gameplay-wise, it looks Venom Plus a little bit. Not quite levels of James Bond, a game I also do not own. So that's kind of how I feel about it. I think I would be happy. $11,250, yeah, I probably would have put a deposit in there. I believe that was the price of the LE Rush when that came out. I did have that game. So, yeah, I think that's kind of where I'm at. The other thing is if we look at recent releases, LEs of Jaws, amazing game. Looks so much better than this. my enthusiasm is probably $12,000 on a Jaws LE right now so it's not there Jaws looks amazing, Venom looked great too, I love the look of Venom, especially the foil cabinet art blades on the side and the mirrored back glasses with the decal in it I legitimately love that and that can be had sometimes for sub $9,000 right now and that is exactly where I'm at so if I saw a John Wick LE for $9,000 I wouldn't even hesitate. I wouldn't even, I wouldn't ask my wife to later. I would ask for forgiveness. I wouldn't ask for permission. That's where I would go on that. So that's how I feel about it. If you've ordered one of these LEs, which people are doing, I'm sure you're going to be happy with it. It looks great. Invite me over to come play it. Now, one of the ways that Stern can add value to, in lieu of lowering the prices, which I think was what I would like to see, I don't think they're going to do it corporately and probably by the numbers they don't need to, but they do curry good favor by adding extra value for what you're purchasing. So when Jaws came out and we had expression lighting in the back box and it came with a shooter rod, that was some extra value. I like that. So with John Wick LE, we get the lights, we get the back box cabinet lights, but they couldn't do us a solid with just a shooter rod, man. Maybe a bullet. Maybe a bullet was too much. Maybe they couldn't agree on what should go there. Please don't put a severed puppy's head. We don't need a cricket shooter rod. Come on. Let's not do that.
    24:01
    So maybe it's still in development or whatever. You know, but a little bit of baked-in value would have been there. I do like that they've gone with the extra wide armor for the premium, just like they did with the Jaws release. That's at least something. Again, the armor is $60 from Pinball Life and Marco's. So, I mean, it's not, like, exuberant, but it's just, like, give us a little something, man. Give us a something-something.
    24:25
    So, I don't know. What else would I like to see for value baked in? I would like to see maybe an accessory thrown in. I would love to see a topper thrown in, but that's just wishful thinking at this point. Yelling at the clouds, I don't think it's going to happen. So, Don, are you buying a John Wick? I am not.
    24:40
    I'm not buying a John Wick. I'm going to tell you why. I'm going to tell you why I'm not buying one, and it's a reason you probably don't think. It's not just the price.
    24:48
    I've got the funds for it. I had money earmarked, and it's not that I wasn't hype on it. I was hype for this. I wanted this to be awesome. I wanted to get it. I couldn't wait. It didn't have to be perfect. It just had to be some John Wick, some fast gunplay, and I'm in, man. No, the reason I'm not getting it is because of expression lights.
    25:10
    Don, what are you talking about? You told me the expression lights were amazing. They are. I love it. I love that they're in here. I love it that they're available on every trim level. They've gone ahead and took the router template and then CNC'd it into the side of the cabinets for us. So thank you for doing that. Saved me a trip. But I'm not buying, I was going to buy a John Wick premium. I'm not getting it because of the expression lights, and here's why. Here's what I mean. So I like to usually go in at the premium level, you know, because I want the full features of the game is what I want. But I don't know that the Invisiglass and the extra cabinet art and coming with a shaker motor justifies the extra $3,000 to jump to LE for me. Now, this would have been a little bit easier for games like Jaws because it just does look so amazing. But I have some ability, and I don't mind DIYing some things and adding value on my own and building something that's premium plus, right? Like halfway between the premium and the LE for just a little scratch more than the MSRP of the premium. That's where I like to be, right? So for this game in particular, I could go ahead and take the armor, powder coat the whole thing, powder coat the coin door, powder coat the speaker panel, find an alternative trans light I like better maybe and throw in there. I can't do anything with the cabinet art. It's just what it is. It's okay. And the premium is probably my least favorite of all three trim levels. The LE just is so awesome. But that is what it is. I would throw a shaker motor in there, maybe some Invisiglass, maybe not.
    26:39
    I would throw in some art blades. I'd build a shooter rod or something. You know, all that I can do. I can make a start button, whatever it is. But when it comes to expression lights, that's $500 at current prices. And that's just for the cabinet expression lights. We haven't even seen how much they're going to charge for a kit that would come with the cabinet expression lights plus the back box expression lights because you want them all to match. Okay, okay, okay, fine. I can go and get a set of expression lights. I can go get the Mezzle Mods or Medicinal or Ninja Camp or whoever's doing the lights that plug into the circuitry of the expression lights to kind of match it. And maybe even throw in some undercab lighting as well to make the whole thing pop. I could do that, but then that's like an extra $500. dollars so let's add it up with some quick math not even in the back of the napkin do this all in my head so i get my premium 96 99 9500 if i got a good relationship with my distributor and depending on how desperate they are um so i'm in there for let's say 95 and then uh you know i get some visiglass for 200 bucks 120 for a shaker motor i build myself a shooter rod this is a 50 dollars of value maybe i buy one on pin side uh put in some plastic protectors at 30 bucks or something uh you know get myself some art blades 110 or 89 if i want some just unfancy ones 110 10 for foils. What else do I need? Some Ninja Camp balls or whatever, the chrome ones. Those are $1.25 a piece. That's not really expensive. And then powder-coated armor, conservatively $200 plus $25 for the powder I want. I'm probably going to get two pounds, say $50. So where are we at? That wasn't even adding the math up in my head. But that's got to be around, let's see, $100, $200, $300, $400, $500. I'll say $600 altogether for that. Okay, so $600 plus the MSRP. I could have my premium plus machine. The thing is I'd have to spend $500 to get expression lights, and they're probably going to be $549 or $600 by the time that they become available again. So now I'm like $1,000 over. So now I'm somewhere in the realm of $11,000.
    28:37
    So for another $2,000, I could just get the LE and get everything in there, especially the mirrored back glass that I can't have remade and the awesome cabinet art and stuff. And the expression lights already come with it. And, you know, so Hemant and Han there, I'm like, so I'm going to spend all this money, be $2,000 away from an LE, and have a game that potentially, if the LE price drops to $9,000, I'm not going to have $9,000 in value in a premium at that point. That's going to be $8,000 if I'm lucky. So that's the reason that I was out. I love the Expression Lights. I'm so glad they're in there. They need to be in every game. I love them. But because of that, I'd have to have them. So I'm either compelled to jump to the LE, which my level of enthusiasm does not meet that price, or pay an extra $500 to try to get them in my game. It's like, I just don't want a deal anymore. I don't even want a deal. And here's the extra wrinkle, listener. Where can you even get Expression Lights? Do you think you can get John Wick Expression Lights now? Do you think you can get John Wick Expression Lights this time in 2025? Maybe. December 2025? Probably. But given the track record of when these accessories are even available to us, yeah it's going to be 12 to 18 months no joke until it even be available so i go in and get my new inbox premium hot off the line the freshest game from stern i'm super excited i'm playing it and i'm looking at black sidewalls the whole time i'm not even getting all the features of the game even if i get a premium because i can't get the expression lights they're not going to be available um i can throw art blades in there but do i want to put art blades in and have to remove them to put expression lights in when they're available down the road nine months from now 12 months from now, 18 months from now when they're available? Do I want to then shell out the probable $650 that they're going to cost? $650, probably $799 if you're including the cabinet lights, to get all that in there on a game that I already then by then had for a year and a half Maybe I ready to move on from it I don want to dump all that money into it I looking at a topper for Venom and then a topper for John Wick It all too much man It all too much So it's just swirling into what just looks like bad investment on the bad investment. And I'm like, this is going to be one of my location games. This is going to be a game that I'm going to enjoy the heck out of. I'm going to get the insider achievements. I'm going to get the push notifications on my phone. and I'm going to do it at my local arcade and not in District Dawn. I think that's where I'm at right now. Yeah, of course it doesn't help that I just got Tales from the Crypt here and I got a brand new game and I got another Pulp Fiction in the box at home. But I was hype on this game and I was ready to put the money down and get it. And I love how it looks and I love the green plastic effect, even though it's like GTF with John Wick there looking like he's in the Matrix, but there's no bullets, it's all knives and stuff.
    31:11
    But even then, I was hype to get this. I really can't wait to play this game. I can't wait to play this game. I'm just not going to play it in my basement, it looks like. And I'm a little bit sad. I'm a little bit triste now. I'm going to go in Spanish now from the French. But, yeah, that's where I am with the game, man. It doesn't matter what I think. People are buying them. The pros are selling well. The LEs are nearly sold out from my distro. People are already posting, like, you know, I'm going to my favorite distributor. I got my name on an LE. Let's go, let's go, let's go. The vitriol online is at a peak right now. Now, if you have not watched Kerry Hardy's video rant, put the kids to bed early. Pull yourself a mimosa. Pull yourself up and watch that because that is some great aid content. That is Twippy winning stuff, man. That's why we love him. Holy garbage, man. I was giggling watching that. So well done. He's in rare form. He's already doing the – everybody's off to the races. Everybody's off to the races. Now, you know, I happen to be in Chicago this week. Would have been cool to swing by and play a little early. But that's fine. That's fine. I want to announce this here. I think this game is going to be rolling out very, very soon. Pros are being made right now. I think pros are shipping right now. I think pros have already arrived in Los Angeles for sure. So I think this game is going to be in location fairly quickly. From what I've heard of production, the location pros are going to get, like, they're going out right now. The LEs will be next. The end of the May will be the premiums. That's in a couple of weeks. So this sounds like a much better, robust launch than Jaws was. Hopefully there's not as much supply chain issues with this. probably because there's not as much in it, right? But the games are going out. So I'm hoping that Monday, I'm in Chicago Monday, I'm going to stop by Interium because it's just what I do, man. I love the Woodfield Mall. I'm going to peek up there and see if there's a John Wick Pro, maybe even a Pro and a Premium, just like they did with Jaws, that I can go play. And I'm inviting you along with me. So if you're in the Chicagoland area, let's shoot 4 p.m.-ish, 4 p.m. to 5 p.m.-ish, Interium, Woodfield Mall. I'm going to pop in there. I'll do little updates and things closer to the time when I get there. But if you want to come hang out for a little bit and get a Mad Pinball sticker and, you know, say what up, give your homie a dab, beat me in some pinball, I'm going to be there. Let's do another one. I haven't done a public appearance like this since I was at Helicon Brewery in Pittsburgh on Super Bowl Sunday, my first year of doing a podcast.
    33:28
    I think I had about 20 episodes or something. Nobody showed up. By the way, it was me. Now, it probably didn't help that it was Super Bowl Sunday and nobody knew who I was. so maybe this will be a little bit more successful um i did take a jaunt out to wizard's world arcade in fort wayne indiana put that place on your map if you're ever in the region 129 of like fantastic games i like this place more than i like district 82 because this was like a players arcade not a tournament players arcade and there is a difference not every game was set up balls hard right with a pitch of 11 and no ball saves. It was all good games, multiple forms of games, and a killer caveat. I'm going to chew a little crow on Pinball Brothers Queen. They actually had a good playing version of it there, and I had a good time playing it. So not a great game, but it was okay. It was okay. So Queen's a little bit better than the one I played at TPF. All right, for sure, for sure. All right, so good thought out there. Also, I played Heavy Metal. What a game. I would not mind getting some more time on that. So go check that place out if you're in the region. I apologize. I posted pictures that I was there. I was there for like an hour and ten minutes, and it wasn't even a planned thing. I was stopped on the interstate on the turnpike going across Indiana. Stopped to get some Sbarro as I do. And, you know, I'm looking up at the pinball map, like what's around here. You know, maybe I'll stop in South Bend. Maybe I'll go over, you know, whatever, in Toledo or something. And then I'll pick a little bit off the turnpike. I'm like, what's this place with 129 games? I start looking at the list, and they got some cool stuff, man. And so I just took a jaunt down there. I didn't think. I didn't have the presence of mind to post something and say, hey, anybody that lives right down the street, I'll be there in an hour. Come hang out because I'm getting text messages. Dude, you were like down the street from me. Like why didn't you tell me you were there? It's because my brain is broken and I don't think of this. And it wasn't even like a planned thing. It's just like let's just keep going. I had to make Toledo by the evening. I didn't get to Toledo until like midnight. It was probably a bad idea, but I made it happen anyway. And the folks there were totally gracious, man. They hooked it up. I had a great time. I got an ALA-1 that I bought there It's a Kentucky soda pop, love it So yes, I'm going back there the next time I'm crisscrossing Ohio And I have a little extra time Fort Wayne, and I'll do y'all a solid And I'll post before I go there Let's do some more meetups, man I'm going to start bringing t-shirts for giveaways and things So if you meet me in live space We can do some giveaways, I think that would be fun I think that would be compelling I think it would be just about as compelling as listen to me drone on About John Wick Was there anything else I really wanted to say oh, this AI business they're talking about, I think it's cool. I think it's innovative. I don't think it's artificial intelligence. From what I understand is that as you're going through a battle, maybe there's like a mode battle or something, maybe there's like four or five guys potentially you could take out. Let's say it's during a multiball and you kill two of the five, and then the multiball ends. It'll play a scene where John Wick beats up two guys, because that's what you killed instead of, you know, five or one. And probably what there is is a bunch of clips from the various four films that are included in this game. of, you know, here's a bunch of clips where he beats up one guy. Here's two, here's three, here's a menage a four or whatever. And then, you know, the AI system will just go ahead and pick, you know, one of those and throw it up there randomly. So no two games ever play the same. That is complete marketing speak. So I don't think this is AI. I think what this is is AI. I think this is computer intelligence, not artificial intelligence where there's like a sentience there where it's kind of like manipulating things with a player. I think it's just based on how many guys you kill. That's what it plays on the screen. And it's really nice that it selects a film clip asset to put up there instead of like some CG generated little goblins or whatever the heck was going on in Venom. Why are we playing a scream all of a sudden? Like there's a video mode and I guess we're scream now. And I guess we're standing in the middle like Willow Smith whipping our hair back and forth. Like what was going on? Was there going to be more scream in the game that was cut? And then maybe that's coming in the 1.0 update. But anyway, this is a fair bit better than that. it'd be cool if it was like a video mode that you can control with movie clips like that would be interesting i'd like to see him develop this idea of ai and i can't wait to see how this push notification business comes in here and if there's a leveling system um you know i like what the i like the collectibles that they did with jaws i really like what they did with the code with venom that's what brings me back and has me playing a game again especially on location um because like i feel like every time i'm playing like i'm working toward like an overarching goal i love that and the build up to pokemon i love that that's what we're doing i hope we see it in the next release x-men 97 supposed to be rumored that's what's coming next with mr jack danger what bring it man bring it i'm i'm my body is ready my body is ready for that game that game has to be such a steaming turkey for me not to get it and you know fortunately i've got some john wick money kicking around so so when i get there we will be ready what's going to go off the rest of the year i guess we can look forward to metallica now if that drops in the next couple months like look at that look at all of us all those big brain people skipping john wick they're gonna get a brand new metallica spike three system what so anyway the behavior self be good to each other um you know we're ranting stuff we're just very excited you know the people that are loud the most are the ones that are just really passionate and probably over excited about this and and maybe not channeling emotions in the right way so this is how they come out oh after all it's a pinball machine it's a stern it's gonna play fantastic we wish there was more stuff in it we wish the toppers weren't $2,000, we can speak with our wallets and just hope that the pinball gods are benevolent to us. But ultimately, we have the power of the purse. We can decide what we want to purchase and what we want to play on location. Playing on location helps out our location folks. And you could play 300 games of John Wick and it would probably cost you $275. Because I'm sure by then you'd get a cube of free ones. that is a far bit better than shelling out $13,000 for a stellar-looking game in your basement. All that being said, if anybody is in on an LE because you have to have the new new and you want to have it but you're going to have to rotate it because you only have room for five games in your game room, remember your friend Don down the road. Say six months down the road, you're ready to flip this thing. You just want to get cash on the glass and get it out of there. You're not looking to turn a huge profit. It's just the price of doing business for you. I'll show up with $9,000 and take it off your hands because that game looks awesome, man. I think I wouldn't mind having it in play, or at least considering it at that point. How can you reach me? Well, just deep down in your hearts or that space between sleep and awake when there's just a faint glimmer in your eye, which is a little dust mite or something. That's where I'll be, Peter. That's where I'll be.
    40:03
    More Don's Pinball Podcast at gmail.com. You can get me there. Help me on YouTube, man. I'm doing live streaming content all the time. Follow the Facebook page. Love that up to 1,200 people or something like that. I'm here because of all you. Thank you to the Patreons. And a special thanks to all the producers out there at that level. Everybody that's ordered a chicken bucket, you guys are insane, man. Thank you for the pictures and the love. I really feel it. Thanks.