Welcome Welcome everybody to the Head to Head Pinball Podcast. This is episode 123. My name's Martin. And I'm Ryan C. Oh, it sounds so weird, Marty. What the fuck are we doing? What's this about? I don't know. I was at a party the other day and I was kind of like with all these people and I saw this guy from across the room that I used to be with. and I was just like reminiscing on the times. I was like, man, I really miss that guy. I've like been with other people since, but it's just not the same. Yeah. So I don't know. Here we are. I did a Facebook vote. I asked for some votes and it worked, man. The power of social media. Well, absolutely, right? The people willed us into existence. Funnily enough, we actually talked about doing this, I think it was like two or three months ago and we just sort of just kind of just didn't do it. Well, it's because you record with Jeff, and then every other week I'm recording with Jess, and I get my Marty fix every fortnight, and you don't listen to my podcast. I know you don't get your Ryan piece. That is not true. I've not listened to the last couple, but I have listened, and I find them hilarious. And I'm even giving Jessie J suggestions for the podcast, so I'm practically writing your show. Yeah. it's quite funny because one of the number one things that people ask me these days is do you still see Marty and do you still talk to that guy you used to do the show with and I'm like yeah, me and Marty are still friends we just do a podcast together all the time but that's what's funny we've stopped it for everybody else but we've kept going on our own I think people thought that we might have had this massive fight and we don't like each other anymore. I just needed a break from the podcast and Marty kept on going and then it ended. And then I literally wanted to start a podcast at the same time that Marty started a podcast with Jeff. So we coexist peacefully together. On the Pinball Network. Hello. Oh, hello, Zach Mini. I hope it's working. Can't wait to get the checks for all the pinball machines that we're selling for you. Should we release this episode on the Pinball Network? Let's do that. That'll fuck some shit up what do you reckon call it head to head v2 head to tpn no i don't know do you think do you think the um no one subscribes to the head to head podcast v or something anymore it's dead no do you know i still get the weekly report on how many downloads we get oh we we still get three to four hundred downloads a week wow that's impressive i know i know it's been a year what what episodes are people listening to is it is it still just the keith episodes that keep on like rising up in i don't i i cancelled my subscription so i don't get detailed on analytics anymore so you know it probably is maybe but you know so so tell me about this podcast that you're you just shamelessly plugged before you're doing a podcast you say yeah um just some random girl uh who's into pinball um jesse j she's pretty cool and excitable and um you know my explanation to everyone is she's kind of like mrs pin just not as funny and not as cool um but you know but just as but just a sweary just a sweary um she's she's a closet bogan she just pretends to be like all kind of classy um but deep down inside as you probably saw the other day she's a massive trash bag bogan um she's great she's she's one of the most positive people i've ever met But she has integrated. I couldn't believe it. Like, you know, we're in coronavirus and we can't go out and we're in lockdown. And now kind of, you know, we're allowed to slowly venture out into the world. And she's just unleashed herself into the pinball community. And she's going to her first tournament, I think, tomorrow. By the time this airs, she would have been to her first, like, you know, non-IFBA tournament. She's been to pinball meets. She will travel far and wide for pinball. She's not pretending to be into pinball like some people may have suggested to me earlier on. Like, ah, no, she's just, you know, she's pretending. No, she's into pinball. It's legit. No, she's totally into pinball. Like, I've now met her a few times, and it's really cool how you can just seamlessly go from talking pinball to talking everything else. But it's a good 50-50. She is really, really into pinball. Yeah. Yeah, Jess is awesome. I enjoy the podcast with her. And I was kind of meant to be recording with her tonight, but I blew her off for my old flame, Marty Roberts. Yes, yeah, I know. She's just a shadow of me. And like for me, like Jeff Teolas, you know, he does his best to replace the void that was you, but ultimately he's Canadian and he's ginger. so you know not really going to be able to compete but yes so i obviously i do the final round pinball podcast and i record fortnightly so we sort of alternate so you can still get the ryan and marty fix just not on the same podcast well well we have been on the same podcast together we just have to like pretend that we want jeff there so what else you've been up to so it has been uh look i think it's probably been 18 months since probably even longer i can't even remember the last time you're on on head to head but besides that how's your 2020 been it's it's been definitely a year of transition new job um which i mean it's a total total kind of i used to work for myself everyone always asks what do you do, Ryan, it's almost like you're a bum. And that's what kind of happens when you run your own business and you get it down to a couple of hours a day. But I'm now back to working for the man. And between that and, I guess, the pinball side hustle and looking after the kids and kids weren't allowed to go to school for a while. So I was doing the whole homeschooling thing. I kind of can't wait for the year to be over. I've definitely had I still had a great year and it's definitely highlights, but I'm so tired, Marty, and I just can't wait for a couple of weeks off, refresh, and fingers crossed that 2021 isn't a total shit show. Sounds like my end of 2019 when I was just so, just worn out, so tired, and it was work. And speaking of bums, I haven't worked all year, so I've had a great year. And you're a bit of an introvert. Well, I think you're a massive introvert, Marty. I think people mistake you for being an extrovert. But you like to be alone. You like your time to recharge your batteries. And you've been recharging your batteries all fucking year. Yeah, yep. I've repeatedly charged my batteries. Oh, God. Why am I imagining you on a couch with a... No, I can't repeat that. I can't. So, look. All I've said is, obviously 2020 has been a complete shit show, right? No one will argue with that. But if ever there was a time for me to not have to be a part of it, this was the best year to do it. So, you know, when everyone was screaming about being in lockdown, I had already been in lockdown for a couple of months. So I was kind of like, what are you all complaining about? This is kind of cool. And it's funny you should mention that. I am an introvert. I am an extrovert by skill. That is a learned skill. So I can do both. I'm referred to as an ambivert, Ryan, just so you know. Yeah, I'm not smart. You know, it's binary for me, right? You're either an extrovert or an introvert. That's it, right? I'm a massive extrovert. You're a massive introvert. Full stop. I am vert neutral. Vert, oh gosh. How many subsections of that? Okay, what am I then, Marty? I'm a massive extrovert, but twice a year or three times a year, I have to be alone. What is that called? Is that just still an extrovert? Just being a human, really. Just sometimes having too much of people and just needing your own time. The last time, well, okay, actually maybe just once a year. The last time it happened was when Jeff Teolas had his, did you know that Jeff Teolas won the Flip Frenzy at my house this year? Did he? at the Pinball Profile World Tour in Australia. Did he win it? Wow. It was about 1 o'clock in the morning, and I just wanted everyone out of my house. But the finals were on, and I just went to my room for half an hour, and I just had a little hissy fit. That was the last time I needed to be alone, was when Geoff Tillis was in my house. Maybe I just don't like fucking loud, drunk Canadians. I don't know. Who does? So let's talk 2020 then. Let's go back to pinball and let's talk 2020, and in particular, the releases of pinball this year. And I'll read them out very quickly and then we can summarise. Stranger Things, Rick and Morty, Hot Wheels, I'm counting Heist, Heavy Metal I'm counting as well, Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles, Avengers Infinity Quest, Guns N' Roses, Led Zeppelin. Have I missed any? Uh, Haggis? Kelts? Not till next year. That's going to be the 2021 release. Is this shipping, is it? Yes. Stranger Things was last year, maybe? I don't know. Was it? I think it was on the cusp, kind of landed this year. That is, when you put them all together, that is one insane year of pinball. Like, those titles are all juggernaut titles. Led Zeppelin, Guns N' Roses, Rick and Morty, Stranger Things, Hot Wheels, eh, Heist, eh, Heavy Metal, eh. Everything else. Stranger Things. Okay, Stranger Things. This is the thing, Marty. And we've talked about this a million times. This is not anything new. People love the dad rock, you know, pinball machines like Led Zeppelin. But then when they come out, they're like, oh, why don't you make something more relevant? And then they make Stranger Things. And people are like, ugh, no one likes Stranger Things. You can't win, obviously. That's not true, Ryan. That is not true. No? Because if Stranger Things came out with an Avengers layout and Avengers art, people would go, yeah, this is freaking hot. People looked at it and went, huh, okay. It's got flippers and ramps and there's balls flying around. But what's exciting me? The projector on the Prima Nelly is pretty cool. and the UV add-on at the end, although in Australia we all got those as standard even on the Pros, the Premiums and the LEs. Why did that happen? I wasn't even podcasting then. Was it just horrible sales or a better exchange rate and they're just like, let's just chuck it in for free? I don't know. Look, people have been asking me that and I really don't know. I've just been saying maybe it's because we don't have a street price. We just pay retail, and maybe they thought, okay, well, we'll throw these in because that's a lot of money for a pinball, this pinball. Well, okay. On that topic, Marty, what are we fucking getting for Led Zeppelin? Because that is a pretty barren pinball machine, okay? The art is fucking terrible, okay? Oh, how dare you? And how dare I? It's amazing. and the Australian dollar is the best it's been in two years. So I was like, oh my gosh, it's 10% better than a certain price when it was here. So it should be 10% less. So we're going to get the machine for $1,000 off. And then the price got announced and it's the same price. So where's my UV kit on Led Zeppelin? At least put some pin stadiums in there. I don't know, something. Well, on the LE, they've got their, you can't see my air quotes, PinStadiums, but they've got that blue trim. That's pretty blinding, so that's kind of like, you know. They've got the topper. They've got the topper that, you know, doesn't really colour match anything. That's pretty nice, too. I know. They've got the shooter knob that looks like the most uncomfortable shooter knob ever. Yeah. Look, on the last episode of Final Round, I was talking to Jeff, because Jeff's in on an LE, and I was trying to be kind about Led Zeppelin. What I will say is after I've seen the stream that was on Facebook, then Instagram, and now it's behind a paywall on Stern Insider, I'm liking it more. Nothing can excuse the art package. nothing yeah i almost i think will like the machine more knowing that i pretty much have no chance of buying it because when you when you're like in the market for a machine you can be a bit more aggressive you're like ah you know no they disappointed me and and or i or i really like it because i kissed that girl at the at the fucking party or whatever jeff's story was but you know when you can be neutral I mean I know you can be neutral all the time because you're a very well balanced individual but someone like me who has like raging hormones like an 18 year old yeah I can kind of just step back and say I'm kind of glad that it's not a great pinball machine because I will really enjoy playing someone else's Led Zeppelin yeah yeah I hear you I said I think it looked, just based on the pictures, that it's going to shoot great. Looking at the video, it does look like it shoots great. And really, there's not that many Steve Ritchie machines that don't actually shoot great. The point I was making, and I think the response from just about everybody has been really quite negative. and really it's just because we've just seen pinball evolve over the last two years. Sort of started 2019. We read out all those games where you've just gone, great, that's great. Even Rick and Morty, which I would argue is probably the least fun to shoot, maybe, but it's still got something about it that makes it special. And I'm not just saying just because it's Rick and Morty and it's got the humour. The way it sort of presents that humour to you with all the custom pinball call-outs, it's just hilarious. It's got something special. Even Heavy Metal, right, which is, you know, a re-theme of one of their home machines, whatever they call them, boutique or studio games, I can't remember what they call them these days, I was watching the stream of that going, this actually looks like a lot of fun. The way it's presenting the sound and the rules, it's kind of fun. I'm just with Led Zeppelin, and I will also go back and, you know, rehash my comments I made about Avengers. The problem I'm having with these machines is they're getting worked up on the license, presenting all the assets, and just stacking it with code and rules and points and multipliers and geometry. What they're not doing, and I'm putting this on Stern because I'm not comparing Led Zeppelin to Guns N' Roses. I'm comparing all of the Sterns releases to Guns N' Roses. What Guns N' Roses does, it's not an innovative layout. It's really not. It feels great. It's fine. Whatever. What they do, I think now better than anybody, is make you feel good, make you happy, give you moments, moments where it stops, gives you a light show, screens something out at you, changes the pace of the game, changes the tempo of the music, or just things change where you feel like you're doing different things throughout the game, rather than just having a constant assault of call-outs, music, rules, everything. There you go. Yeah, it's... Well done, Marty, 10 out of 10. it's wait what machine are we talking about now just machines in general just 2020 releases in general but just look I would say for me even though I only streamed it once we streamed it for three hours for me my game of the year is Guns N' Roses right I hate Guns N' Roses that's not fair I'm indifferent to them but if their music came on the radio I would turn it off but I don't hate them I just don't like them but that machine made me really start enjoying their music it was kind of weird yeah it's um people i have no idea i don't really like jump on the forums anymore and i'm not sure if the conversation is is changing to ah now i've played 500 games and guns and roses and it's just this and you kind of like that wears off and and i don't i don't want to read the forums on purpose i i don't want to have that in my head like i want to enjoy what that machine made me feel for as long as I can. And I don't ever want it to be like, oh, now I'm bored of it. I see past the amazing light show and the experience and I see it for what it really is. Oh my God, it's just like a B-plus layout. I can't enjoy the game anymore. I don't want to be that person. I just want to enjoy pinballs. If it makes me happy, it makes me happy. And I'll tell you a story about when we do our week in pinball. about a game that wasn't making me as happy as it should be and a new game that is. I think that might be on the show notes. Yeah, so if you want to go straight there, it's probably like two hours and 15 minutes into the podcast. But here's the other interesting thing. So I also say, because I got to stream Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles last night again, so I've now had a lot more time on it. And I still say, I think for me personally, I prefer Turtles over Avengers. And I'll pick those two out because I think they're probably... There's four really big releases this year. Let's say Guns N' Roses, Avengers, Turtles and Rick and Morty, right? Led Zeppelin, too early to tell. No one's got it as far as I know anyway. so I think for me I would rate them as Guns N' Roses first, Turtles second and Avengers and Rick and Morty side by side hmm okay are you waiting, wanting me to do the same thing yeah that's kind of what that pause was about was just waiting for you to respond are we just, it's so I mean, I don't know, like shooting they're all the best at doing something. Yeah. Except for... Okay, so Rick and Morty has the best call-outs easily. Avengers is the best layout. Guns N' Roses is the best, I think, overall package and experience. And Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles is the best game for being too fast to enjoy. Okay. Hot take. That game is too fast. I don't think I've ever said that about a game, but I think games that are that fast deserve two flippers when you add a third flipper to a game you need to slow the fucking ball down otherwise it is just i i never realized that until i played that game you even if you hit the shot it's too fast to enjoy it when it goes back to the flipper that fast i'm like i had a good shot now i'm gonna hit another shot it's like wait for the ball like i need the ball to come to the flip it a little bit slower, so I can be like, yeah, I hit that shot. Now I hit another shot. You know? Yeah. I can't get, the groove is too fast for me. You know what? You're absolutely right. It is too fast, and it's a very, it's a twitchy game. And maybe that's why I was like it, because people have, you know, heard that my hot take was that I preferred Turtles, and everyone was just reaching out to me saying, what? Are you mad? And it's like, I don't know. I kind of just think I am in tune with John Borg. I just think that what he has in mind are the layouts that I like, because I then just started rattling off all his previous games, and I really, really like his layouts. I mean, I know they're not that innovative. Turtles on the surface looked innovative. The more you play it, you realise it still is fan layout, just with a warp ramp. But there's just, I don't know, something about him, and the pace of it. And I will say that when I was playing it first and I was just like, drain, drain, drain, drain, drain, because it's so fast, it's so fast, it's so fast. When I was streaming it and just playing it back to back, you just get more in tune with that pace and get better at it. Yeah, I haven't, I've only probably played like 20 or so games on it, but I just, it hasn't, what's the best way to say it? I haven't like connected with the pinball machine money. Yeah, that's a weird thing for you to say. I haven't had that avatar, soul-binding connection with it. I know on some pinball machines it takes a while, but 20 games in, I just like Stranger Things. Okay, I shouldn't say that. Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles at least shoots the geometry makes sense. Regardless of it being too fast, I don't know if I like the software. I definitely don't like the fact that even when I feel like I'm blowing up the game, I'm on like 12 million points. Um, but Stranger Things, like, what a fucked layout. Like, just every time you hit an orbit and it comes back and it just hits the top of the sling and you're like, did you not playtest this fucking thing? Like, did you, did you created, like, the three best fucking pinball machines from the 90s and, and you had a break and you just, yeah, somehow you lost your groove in those 20 years. so you know we will get to our week in pinball when we went to a party well i was going to say together we went separately just guys stop talking uh and strange thing was there and it was the machine that people played the most it had lines of people wanting to play it i eventually got on it had one game just had no desire to play it again yeah it's um i mean we know this as well with pinball marty like team nt kind of got lost you know because it wasn't out for long enough before um avengers came out and avengers is kind of this big thing uh stranger things everyone hated on it the games that everyone kind of hates the most and there's like a black sheep every year some some years it's like two black sheep um they don't sell as many of them and then they become popular they could become like cult class you know you're doing like a thousand episodes on it yeah guardians of the galaxy right everyone i rent out more machines and everyone loves guardians like the number one machine that people like can i have it for another month please ryan yes you can pay up over here um versus you know other machines where people just never rent them again like i thought i would really like The Simpsons, but I fucking hate it. So, yeah, I think these... it's hard sometimes to know if people really like a pinball machine, or if they just have a yearning to play it. Like Black Knight. I know our mate James is like, ah, no one's selling a Black Knight, I really want a Black Knight and because you know you can play it on location you know because no one has one you can go over to your mate house Where do you get your fix So then you start to romanticize it in your head You like I really want to play whatever game it is because no one has it anymore. I love Mustang. It's so underrated, et cetera, et cetera. Well, it is. Yes, I know. I've seen the results of the final rounds. Yeah, anyway. Okay. So just a side note, Avengers last week was number one on Pinside Top 100. Wow. What do you think it is this week? It's either still number one or it's like seventh or something. Lower. Lower. Thirteenth? It is thirteenth. Oh, there we go. That's pretty good. So I reckon that's some serious review bombing going on there. People are like, how dare you take Medieval off? Yeah, it's the same thing every single time. Saying that, some games actually don't make it up there, right? Was Guns N' Roses number one? I don't know. I don't know. Maybe. Jurassic Park's number two. I hear there's a mint Jurassic Park going for sale in Melbourne at the moment. Oh. Is it at a great affordable price? It certainly is at a price. What? There are numbers and a dollar sign in front of it. Yeah. Yeah. A zero, a zero, a zero, a zero. There's so many fucking zeros. So. Fucking hell. I think someone's trying to cash in on Keith Elwin's skills. Yep. Pretty much. So. Just. Okay. So what we're talking about is money. Why are you selling Jurassic Park money? Why are you being such a hater? No, I love it. It's a regrettable sale. Was that part of the listing? Regrettable sale, making way for something else, mint condition. I said, therefore, it is a regrettable sale. I'm not sure you remember my 2020 was the opposite to yours job-wise. Yeah. Yeah. So good deal with the cash. I'm cashing checks and snapping necks, and you're selling the number two game of all time. Correct. So it was number three when I listed it. Now it's up to number two. That's the power of final round slash head-to-head. And just in case, why not throw her in there as well? So you're going to have a big gaping hole in your collection. I love a good gaping hole. But what I want to do then, just on that, thinking of 2020 and, you know, we call it the Stranger Things effect, where it was hated, then it was loved, then it got new code and all that kind of stuff. Let's think back to the previous year, 2019, right? This is where you had Munsters, Oktoberfest, Black Knight, we talked about, Star Wars Home Edition. I'm actually putting Cosmic Carnival in the list just for shits and giggles. Willy Wonka, Jurassic Park and Elvira. Have I missed any? Wow. There's like two and a half good games on that list. So it's a very different year to 2020, isn't it? Yeah. That's what I'm saying. Pinball is... This is the year where prices have been crazy, but it's also kind of coupled, you know. I mean, it goes hand in hand, but... What a bad year for the pinball buying community's wallets. Yeah, because... Absolutely destroyed. They have commercially... Well, except for Jurassic Park, I'm hoping, but Munsters, I lost quite a bit of money on that. Oktoberfest, I don't know how well that sold. Black Knight doesn't go for much. Take Star Wars and Cosmic out, they're not really there. But Willy Wonka, I don't know what its resale is like. Munsters now, you can sell at Ali Munsters for more than what they go for on you. You can sell anything right now. You can shit in a wooden box shaped like a pinball machine, call it Raza and people will buy it. I don't know. Like, yeah, that's when I put that list together for the show notes. I was looking at it going, yeah, 2019 wasn't that great. 2020, sure, people died, Ryan, but we had great pinball machines. So they kind of evened themselves out a bit, no? No, they didn't. But it's been a good year for pinball. It has. Monsters, not great. Oktoberfest, fuck. When was the last time you played Oktoberfest? I don't know anyone who bought one. I actually don't even know if that's a good pinball machine. Apparently... I do like it. I only ever got to play the prototype. I don't think I ever... Yeah, you went to... Yeah, you streamed it. You streamed it with Dwight Sullivan. Yeah. Well, yeah, so I streamed it at TPF, but I also then streamed it at MrPinballWaynes. So, you know, a good three hours non-stop playing. I kind of like it. The only thing that's really... I don't know there's a couple of really satisfying shots and then there's a lot of really not satisfying shots the side ramp is just still really difficult to get and if you're getting that shot one in every 20 that needs more dialing in that should be a one in five max yeah it's weird it's like Steve Ritchie learned how to do the side ramp a long time ago and it's like in a real sweet spot um and joe bolsa kind of like failed i'm sure he failed before but failed to do it in simpson pinball party it's kind of a really shitty part of the yeah and then he just like fucked it up even more with october fest and i'm i'm so sick marty of people making the excuse of like bad shooting games and saying uh no it's not bad shooting it's just not a Steve Ritchie and and this and this and that and then and you kind of people enough people say it that you're like ah I guess it is just a different part of the flipper and I guess this this and that I guess you can just like put the shots wherever you want on a pinball machine and it should be okay you just need to dial into it and then you play a game like Avengers and you're like nah that's bullshit like it's just not a good it's not a good layout because Keith Elwin proved you wrong because this is nothing like any other game and this is like designed by some kind of sentient god being because there isn't a layout that's ever been as good as avengers and if if Keith Elwin can do it i'm not saying other people can but i don't know i'm playing alvira and i'm like this is this shoot's fucking amazing and there's a lot of games that shoot well and just because the game shoots shit like it just just call it what it is it's just not a very good game, like, shots-wise. It can be really good, like Rick and Morty. Just, you know, left ramp and right ramp, it's okay. All the side shots, horrible. And that's fine. And I own the machine, and I can say that. I can say what it is. That doesn't mean that it's not fun, but don't... I just, I can't stand hearing that anymore. Mm-hmm. Okay. Cool. You've had your piece? Yeah, cool. All right. So let's go back a little bit further. And this is the where are they now section of the podcast. Because, and I could only think of a couple off the top of my head, but things like Kingpin. Now, I played the prototype remake of that at TPF. Still not in production. I played it at TPF the year before you, Marty. Yeah, right? Yeah. So when was that? Was that 2018? 18, I think. Yeah. Yeah. and so they were also going to do a remake of the pinball circus which also hasn't happened someone was making a time shop which is the like a remake of the digital pinball the pro pinball time shop don't know where that is someone had also mentioned that they were going to make a space cadet which is that you know that windows game that came with windows which they took away which is so annoying um i know deep root are going to be using that layout for one of their awesome themes. Where are these games, Ryan? No idea about Time Shock and you just kind of mentioned the Space Cadet one. Kingpin I don't think was ever going to be, not ever going to be made, but the guy who was doing it just didn't seem like he had enough knowledge about the path forward and how he was going to do it. But, I mean I'm sure you played that machine and I played it a year before. It was a very good prototype. Oh, gotcha. If he could just sit there and make prototypes all day long, but I guess the difference between making a prototype and making a real thing, production line stuff, as you know, Marty, is two separate things. So someone bringing a beautiful Pimlin machine to a show doesn't mean much for production. so then going on to a segue on to almost where are they but let's talk about raza because only because we were meant to have had it by now we haven't do you think we're gonna see it uh i don't know where the fuck we on heads it feels surreal talking to you about it marty because we haven't done the podcast in so long but we were having the same conversations like three years ago I still remember the first episode where we were just laughing about it and we laughed about Deep Root for so long Marty and then it kind of almost became like should we still laugh about it Marty because they're hiring all these people and then we're like should we still laugh about it Marty he's saying all these crazy things but you know like if we laugh about it too much maybe we're going to have egg on our faces and then it's like you know what all of the laughing was kind of valid but now it's just kind of like, not sad, but I just want there to be a competitor to Stern. I, listening to the interviews with Robert on Pinball Profile and People News and Pinball Magazine, yeah. Yep. Robert, like, he interviews well when he's not beating his chest and saying all these kind of crazy things. He almost, like, he sold me on the vision of the DLC and stuff i was just like yes i'm not i'm not the crazy person who's going to be like no dlc i know this i know that i'm like if they do it properly then i i am on board with this i'm on board with them refreshing the pinball and making it a good experience i'm not on board with incomplete games but if they if they can somehow create you know mini games and make you know make an old layout and old rules new again, then who doesn't want that? How many 90s games are you bored of, Marty, that you would love there to be an alternative rule set or a time challenge or something on? And, you know, you and I, we've had a joke mainly because we are really not even secretly 12, 13-year-old boys, right? That's our sense of humour. And if someone says deep root, we're going to snigger, right? And we sniggered for a long time. but I think behind all the jokes and the, you know, that's the head-to-head thing, I think we, well, I certainly did and I think you did as well. We were kind of champions behind the scenes going, let's have a laugh but make these machines. Yeah, shut up. STFU, yeah. Yeah, do all these things that you're going to say and then you come out with Food Truck which could be the best game ever. It could be but we all know, like, just, I love Daldin, and I've got one, and I was the one championing Ottobrofest as well, where everyone was saying, this is the worst theme ever. And I was like, it's not actually a bad theme. It's just a bad theme if you want to make money, right? Yeah, too much. Yeah, and if you want to be there and be a pinball company and make it, I will put money in your pinball machine and location. I just probably don't want to buy it, because I don't want to lose $3,000 on my pinball machine devaluing because, you know, like, yeah, I picked up Daldin for a decent price because, you know, the value drops. No one's like, I want to buy Daldin because I kissed the girl at the prom while Daldin was playing in the background. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, okay. What do you think of the pinball? I don't know. Me and Jess are making fun of the whole where is the pinball thing, but now that I kind of see it in action, I'm like, you know what? If I play enough games with this thing and it was done right, yeah, it might end up being one of those things. My thumb is on there. It's a great way to augment the pinball machine. Do I believe in the whole shot log thing and whatever? It really depends on how they implement it. And I don't know. As long as they keep it kind of still pinball, it's fine. it's it's it's like the pinball 2000 thing isn't it marty like they um everett williams was like we had to go over the top with the first two games because we had to sell everyone especially operators on the technology right and everyone's excited by wizard blocks because they're like this is the one where we can actually make a game how we want to make it because i don't have the the big wigs standing over our shoulders saying like you know make bell rock come out and do this and do that like yeah yeah you know right so i i feel like i'm not saying that robert is that person but i feel like they will eventually if they stick around find their groove with the pin bar but the first couple of machines might over pin bar itself just to prove a point what are your thoughts my my thoughts are the more i've seen it and the more i've seen in action i kind of go So, do you know what? That is actually really cool technology. What it does is actually really, I don't know, it's new, it's innovative, it's very technical. I just don't need it. Like, I don't need it. But, you know, what Robert has said, and I know Steven Bowden has said, and I think everyone has said as well, is that that's because you haven't actually played it. Once you actually have it there in front of you and you're in the game and you're making decisions, that's when it makes sense. And that's all well and good. That's like me saying Led Zeppelin is better when you play it. But it's still got crap art and it's still maybe a bit of technology that I might not need. I don't know. I like it. Again, all that shot and all the telemetry that it's doing, I couldn't care less. That means nothing to me. And I think the majority of people are not going to care about that. When the DMD pinball machine came out, I don't think that made everyone throw their solid states in the bin. Well, maybe operators, I don't know. But I can still enjoy an EM or a solid state. If you're a pinball purist, as long as it has flippers and balls, then there's fun to be had. is it the next evolution, the second coming of something? I don't think so. But we will see. I don't know if there's an Australian distributor. I think Wayne might be getting some in. So I don't know, sometime next year. Yeah, when we do our next Christmas episode, Marty, in 2021, we can have a little chat about it. Yeah, fair enough. Shall we do Slam the Top 100? Sure. I've forgotten how to play, but let's do it. So, for those people that are listening for the first time, shame on you. But also, so we are going to ask Google for a random number between 1 and 100. That is going to give us a game on the Pinside Top 100, which I have in front of me right now. You pick a game, I get a game picked, and then we talk about the merits of each game for 60 seconds. I think that was the rule, wasn't it? And then 30 seconds for closing arguments. Sure. Okay, let's see if this works. Hey, Google, pick a number between 1 and 100. 76. Was that your game? Yes, it was. Flash Gordon. Ah, god damn, I know nothing about this game. I thought my... A year on, I might have known more machines, but okay. That was yours, actually, mate. That was yours. That was yours. Was it? Yeah. Okay. Okay, well, let's get yours then. Flash. Hey Google, pick a number between 1 and 100. 19. Yeah, this is going to be an even match. 19 is... Star Trek Next Generation. Can I go back to Flashcore? Alright, Star Trek. Okay, that's fine. Okay. Who goes first? Whoever's got the highest one goes first. A higher ranked game. Okay. Star Trek Next Gen by Williams. Remember those guys? 1993, absolutely the heaviest game from the 90s. Great value for money. Who likes picking up those really light sterns? You're going to break it back. This game has all of the characters doing the voices. Amazing theme integration. Two cannons. I know what you're going to say, Mariana, like nipping the bud now. It doesn't work, it doesn't work, blah, blah, blah, blah. You don't fix people in machines anyway, Marty. So, like, that's not a valid excuse for you. Great game. You're, like, ten shots away from the wizard mode when you press the start button to shoot up the middle, trap up, and then do it again. Collecting dilithium crystals. The video mode where you just remember the path. What an amazing game. The warp ramp that you can't hit because the flippers are always not powerful enough on Stu's game. Super spinner. It was so good, Marty. They remade it, took 90% of the game out and made a better game in Stern and in Silver Sheen in 2013. I give you Star Trek The Next Generation. Yeah, that is an amazing argument right there. Where you literally just shat on it at the same time. Alright, so let's talk about Flash Gordon from Bally, who created the most incredible game in the universe, Flash Gordon. It's amazing It's amazing interaction As balls speed through Two complete playful systems And two independent bonus systems On two different levels Ah Shut the fuck up mate Two voices And interstellar background sounds Work together to create an aura Surrounding the player They're just things off the top of my head What I will say about No What I will say Okay You know people People like Dual level playfields And people don't I really Really love them. All of them. I love multi-level playfields. And this one, I really like because it's actually got a bit of flow from the left and the right ramp. They sort of do sort of loop around. You've got the upper flipper as well. It's brutal. It is an absolute brutal game. But, you know, at the time it was, you know, it's not going to have the deepest rule set, but it was one of those games where you change what you're doing depending on how well you're progressing. You can either go for your bonus through the inline on the targets on the right-hand side, or you can get your drops down to spinners to mod play score. I love it. It's a tough game, absolutely, I will say, but it's a fun game. It's got great art, and it's freaking Flash Gordon, and it's got this flasher on the backbox. That's awesome. A flash flasher? Yep, it's a flash flasher. Okay. There you go. I will say that. One of Claude Jose Fernandez best games. What are his other games, Marty? Just hold on while I PDB loads. Just wait while I click the link. This guy I've never heard before. Well, Embryon. Oh, great game, Embryon. How? What else? Dare you. Skateball. Oh, Ryan. Just a rare game that people fucking see in their collection like, I'm a wanker. I have a really fucking rare game that's like, I'm a cool skater. Like, radical. I'm a cool dude. Electra is a great game. Blackout is a great Williams game. You're just saying that because Axl has one. And Spectrum is also another game from Bally. Not by him. Well, it is by Claude Fernandez. It's just not a good game. I love the art. The weird thing, Marty, about these games of this era is that they had two playfields, but this is that era where they're like, ah, two playfields is hot right now, put it on every game. And it was that era where there was really nothing going on underneath that playfield, so it was basically just like an elevated single playfield. Like, you had to get a ramp to get the ball in the other part of the playfield. There's no orbits around or anything. It's just like, hey, get up here, and then when you fuck up, the ball will come down. But you can't, that space underneath that playfield does nothing. It's not like whitewater or whatever. I know what you're saying is, it might as well be a single level, because really, you've just got a ramp that's just going up to a level that just happens to be elevated, but it might as well be flat. Yeah, kind of. I mean, it still adds something to it, because you have to get the ball up there, and, you know, a little trickle shot. You really have to hit the ramp well. So there is something, but they hadn't quite figured out the whole double play field thing yet. But is this part of my bagging out Flash Garden? Is this your counter? I don't know. Flash Garden is pretty cool. It's an old, brutal game, and I like old, brutal games. I haven't played it enough. I missed out on one by like a second, and then the guy never sold it to me, and he promised to sell it to me. so I'm upset about that and that's why it's not a great game it's too it's too red Marty it is very red I will give you that and it's of the era where like the theme integration is just like the art on the play field like you don't hear the flash there's none of that because that's the music from Queen which they obviously couldn't license and probably couldn't put into the chip that had one byte on it Yeah, and that's why... It says Flash, though. It goes... Flash! Does it? No, it doesn't. Yeah, it's got speech in it. Yes! All right, well, your turn to talk about why, you know, the ball drains. If you say that the ball drains unfairly because of the giant slingshots, that's invalid because it's still less drainy than Flash Gordon. Go. Okay. No, it's not because of the slings. It's because you've got these big fuck-off cannons that don't work most of the time, right, that are blocking your view of the outlanes. So you can't tell, am I going to move the machine to the left or the right? I don't know, because I can't see the ball, so it doesn't matter. I'll just leave it to chance and see what happens. They are the worst designed outlanes in pinball. As for the rest of the game, it's a wide body, which you know I am not a fan of super pins. So is Flash Gordon. No, it's not. It's wide. No, it's not. Fuck, I'm going to look this up. Keep on going. Okay. Please. I think it's wide. It's just not super wide like Embryon. Nope. No, I've only played it twice. Oh, but you know for sure that it's a wide body. Okay. Yeah I had one of these at my school Alright Played it a lot Back in the 60s Ha ha That hilarious Said no one Hilarious. Marty, why did they only make 10,000, but they made over 11,000 Star Treks? Why is that, Marty? Probably because Star Trek was a better license. Yeah. Is the only logical reason. Plus one. Yeah, well done. Probably because Claude Fernandez was a fucking dickhead. He's got a family and children that are listening to this podcast, right? There you go. Yeah, okay. No, so really, okay. I think you know me well enough to know that I am not lying when I say I really dislike Star Trek Next Generation. The pinball. I've been on record so many times. I've even streamed it to try and see if it'll win me over and it just doesn't and it doesn't because the layout I know what I'm saying before I say it that layout is much more suited to a standard body machine a la Star Trek from Stern it works there it's too clunky on a wide body so and you you mentioned it so i'm going to bring it up as well the thing breaks constantly and it's also one of these things with the the center shots because of the the way that it's wide body and it's got flop flippers and all that kind of stuff if you haven't got your flippers dialed in it's very difficult to hit that mode scoop up the middle and also the ramp just to the left side of it so it just it hasn't aged well because of its mechanics there you go and it's a shit game there you go we can't even use gifs can we no we can't I should have put more effort or you know we'll just ask for comments we'll post it up and you can just comment in the comments anyone that has still got head to head on facebook we will do it there and you can just say which one's better. I'm still trying to figure out if Flash Gordon is a widebody. If it is, I just can't. I don't think it is. Ah, it is a widebody. You lose, motherfucker. Your whole argument is invalid. It's not a widebody. This information's off Pinterest. I typed in, is Flash Gordon pinball a widebody? And it came up on Pinterest saying, it's a widebody, which means it plays somewhat slower than regular pin, but requires extremely fast reflexes and a great amount of skill and touch on the flippers to make any sort of decent score. I think it's just, yeah. It probably is a standing point. So, what was your source of fact? Pinterest.com. Okay, cool. Just letting you know. Google. Google never lies, Marty. Apparently masks don't get rid of the fucking virus, Marty. I saw it on Google. Okay. So, on IPDB, I don't know. It's a pinball database. I probably would go IPDB over Pinterest. I'm just saying. There is a section when you search where it says specialty. And if it's a wide body, it will say wide body. So in my list, I've got Embryon above Flash Gordon because I filtered by Claude Fernandez. Embryon says wide body. Flash Gordon doesn't. Okay. Well, I guess... You know what, Marty? Are you going to sue Pinterest for misinformation? I would. We'll let the fans decide, Marty. all that's a fact besides give it to why buddy you're not gay okay fair enough so there's that shall we do this week in pinball let's do it money alright what have you been up to Ryan as as you as I I said before um I have Avengers I had Avengers and it it really is I think the the best shooting game ever and I I know maybe you don't agree with me um but i i just it shoots extremely well there's no doubt yeah the combo possibilities and there still is kind of tight shots it's just there's like five ramps on the game it's it is amazing what i think the pinball machine is lacking is any type of personality and it doesn't have... I know, I think I've heard you say on your podcast that there's a lot going on all the time. I don't really think almost anything of what's going on is that much fun unless you're obsessing about the rules and the flow of the game, like rule intricacies. The sound and the connection with the game just doesn't... Let me give you an example instead of rambling on. I'll ramble on a bit more with a story. I was playing the Soul Gem quests, and I'm sure you've played enough now where you... Yep, you collect all the Avengers, and it's got that great mode where you've got a certain amount of shots to hit eight shots in the game. A certain amount of flips. Yeah, sorry, yes. A certain amount of flips to hit eight shots in the game. Side note, I have no idea why, but the LE does not have full color-changing LEDs, which is just a little bit of a side hate, side note that when it's strobing through shots, it's all one color, but then it gets to the part of the machine that doesn't have RGB LEDs, and it's a different color, and that drives me nuts. Anyway, continuing on with the story. I'm sorry, buddy. Keep going. Yeah, keep going. So you're hitting the shots, and, you know, the flips are going down and it kind of makes you realise how many flips you waste, incidentally, for no reason at all. But then I started to get good at that mode and I hit seven of the eight shots and I had, like, 42 shots left. I'm like, oh my gosh, easy. And then I'm playing and I just keep on missing that last shot, the tower shot, over and over and over again and I'm wasting shots and I'm, like, getting down to, like, ten shots and I'm like, oh my gosh, like I might not make it how embarrassing and and I'm I'm post-passing or I'm trying to hit like a ramp to get the other flipper and then I have a ball on the wrong flipper I have two shots left I post-pass and then on the fly I hit the shot and I was like whoa what a great moment and the entire time I was thinking like I there was nothing in that mode from 40 flips down to zero that made me feel anything at all anything of what i should have been feeling because i was fucking up the mode so bad it should have been getting more intense some guys should have been counting me down something should have been happening and i know that the coding team there will eventually polish that up because it isn't finished yet but i was just like i don't want to go i've just bought a fourteen and a half thousand dollar pinball machine which is a lot of money right it's so much money it's ridiculous like i have to literally trick myself into thinking that i didn't spend that much money on one single item i have a friend who just bought a fucking a motorbike for six thousand dollars and it's amazing and he drives around on it and i spent double that for a pinball machine that doesn't make me feel like i want to make me feel um i I know eventually Marty is going to be an amazing pinball machine code-wise. I'm not sure if the sand will ever be there, but the last 10%, the polish, you experienced it with Jurassic Park. How much better is Jurassic Park now than it was when it came out? Well, obviously it is a lot better, but even the base code was pretty good. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I'm hoping, fingers crossed, it gets to where it's at. but I just said I kind of want a machine that is complete or complete enough that I'm not nitpicking at it and hating it unnecessarily. So I put the machine up for a temporary swap for Elvira and I got someone that wanted it. Why wouldn't you want Avengers LE if you missed out on LE? And yeah, I've had Elvira in my house for a couple of days, Marty. What do you think? oh my god it it's it has exactly what is missing exactly what is missing in avengers like the personality alvira has in spades oh my gosh instant fun attitudes a great shooting game um i don't know all the code intricacies yet but i'm having so much fun in that game it's making me laugh it's making me laugh versus like some random superhero screaming witness the form of binary what does that mean marty i i googled it i googled it it's it's it's i didn't know which which person it was it's captain marvel binary is like when she turns you know into into the angry version, like her version of Hulk. But, like, it's such a shit call-out. Witness the form of binary. Yeah. Yeah. And Elvira has great boobs, Marty. Did you know that boobs really sell pinball machines? Yeah. So I played Elvira a very long time, over a year ago. I streamed it, and I don't know if you remember, I got to the end of the code. You broke it. I broke the machine because I got to the end of the code. and people have been really critical of Elvira saying that it's a pretty generic fan layout, but when the shots feel good, the shots feel good, and when it's feeding back to you that you've done something good, it makes you feel good. That's kind of what I was saying in a different sort of context about Rick and Morty. Rick and Morty just call stuff out to you that makes you feel like you're having fun, and that's what I think with Avengers I love it, it shoots so well it's buttery smooth the last time I played it, it just felt like I was cosying up to it it just felt so good but it's just, it's really serious and I want to have a laugh and I want to have some fun yeah, I don't mind Avengers being fun, I just think as I said, it needs that last like when, and it's got some good things about it, like when you do the Hawkeye combo, and it maxes out at 3x, and then you kind of have to catch it out by doing the loop. Or the Hulk spinner. Those are the type of things that I want. The Hulk spinner is almost there. I think it's not enough points, unless I'm missing something. And I feel like, you know when you hit the spinner on Rick and Morty, and it pulses the Shaker Motor ever so slightly? I feel like the Hulk spinner needs that, like, the Hulk spinner, the whole machine goes, wop, wop, like, pay attention to me, do this one thing, and then I do it, and I'm like, ah, like, I've got a shaker motor, I've got an LE, and it's not giving me the same feedback, like, it's the wop, wop, wop, pay attention thing is making me do the thing, but then the thing gives me two million points, and the spinner sound is pretty shit, and there's no haptic feedback. These are the weird things that Ryan goes nuts over and it's not there yet. It'll get there. Elvira has all of that in appearance and it's funny and what a great layout. And Gaffer is angry. Gaffer is angry. It feeds the flipper so good, Marty. I can't believe people... Some pinball machines, Marty, aka like 80% of them, When you hit an orbit, if the ball doesn't scream around, it'll hit the slingshot. Dennis Nordman has designed a game that feeds to your flipper from the orbit every single time. It's amazing. Okay. Yeah. Come over and play it, Marty. You haven't played it in, like, what, a year? So let's stream it, you know? Yeah. Why not? Sure. Between Christmas and New Year's, come over. Because as I said, it was such early code, but what was there was already lots of fun. It was pretty basic, but it was fun. But I could see how deep it was going to be. Now I want to see. I mean, it's Lyman code, so it's going to be... It's going to be... I was trying to explain this to somebody about Lyman's code because I think that he's obviously been put up on a pedestal, and this is what I think he does well. He allows you to combine things. he has almost like these separate rule sets and he's like, okay, you've got the keys to the machine, hit the start button and when you combine these things your way, magic happens. Yeah. He allows you to create the magic rather than the magic being forced on you. It's a nice way of putting up money. Thank you. I'm glad I got that off my chest. I wish I knew Lyman's address and I would just send him just beautiful Christmas cards every year for just being just amazing. Imagine if Keith Elwin and Lyman, no, they wouldn't go together well because Keith designed his own rule sets. But this is Dennis Nordman and Lyman Sheets. And has there ever been that combination before? Like Dennis Nordman designing a layout and Lyman Sheets doing the rules on it? I would have to, I don't have enough time to Google search that right now. I don't know. I was in a mode earlier today and I fucking hit like... Hold that thought. Hey Google, has Dennis Nordman and Lyman Sheets designed a pinball machine together? Here's an answer from Wikipedia. No, she's telling me about Dennis Rodman. Okay. He was born May 13, 1961. He's an American football professional basketball player. Football player? So, basketball. Didn't he pierce his cock? Oh, probably. Everything else is pierced on him. So, I would imagine, you know, carpet matches the drapes. I don't know if that works. What movie was Dennis Rodman in? Something not good. I do have enough time to Google that Dennis Rodman movie. Double Team, Simon Says. Bad as I want to be. Simon Says? that's the one I'm thinking of okay cutaway baps comebacks basketball diplomacy I don't know whether he's in these movies and who's he date he dated someone he dated someone like Pamela Anderson or something did you know he's known as the worm because of his penis just off the top of my head it's because of his fierce defensive and rebounding abilities so yeah and you know because I follow him I just off the top of my head I know some of the famous things that he says, and they are things like, I don't trust what this life has given me. Okay, Marty. There is so much hypocrisy in sports. At least 50 times I've jumped off a building, jumped off a cliff in a car. I've been in bedrooms when women came in with knives and guns. Poetic. This guy sounds a little bit more interesting than Dennis Lottman, but has he ever worked with lime and cheats? No. No. The answer is the answer. So there you go. What else happened this week for you, Ryan? Did you happen to go to a party that I was at? Yeah, well, we went throughout the star. I saw you at the party, went to the doctor. I'm like, how do I get rid of this erection that's been going on for two days? He's like, just do a fucking show with him and work out a couple of times and you'll be fine. Yeah, so it was a big party. So just for the rest of the world, we can have parties. That's just to let you know. You were having parties, so you can't have parties anymore. We couldn't have parties. Now we can have parties. Yeah, we suffered for six months just so we could party. We fought for our right to party. There you go, Beastie Boys. What was your highlight of the night, Marnie? There was two highlights. One was when I... Because I've always played our friend Eric's Turtles Premium and I wanted to play the pro just to see whether it played well or not. So I just went up and started flipping and then I heard this person behind me going... tisking at me and it was Jessie J. Right? And she was trash-talking me. And she's like, all right, I'll challenge you on the next game. And I think she might have got two million and I got GC, like 60 million. And in fact, I plunged my third ball. I just... That was just absolute defeat enough. So that was another highlight. The other one, sorry, Stu, was our good friend Stu came up and said, I just got GC on KISS. Have a look at my score. And he had a photo taken of the score. And then I beat it by about $100 million. You're just really good at KISS, aren't you, Marty? I'm remembering back, and I think the words were, you know what, I just like Big KISS because there's some games that you're really good at, especially in a tournament. I know I can choose it and beat someone on it, and KISS is that machine. It is. KISS and WrestleMania is another one where everyone hates it, but for some reason I can just beat everyone on it. KISS is an interesting one. And I really haven't played KISS since it had that big code revamp. It's still a bit of an awkward layout with the star area. But, I don't know, I really, really like it. I think that's another one for the underrated pinball list, but it's probably still top 100, I guess. I haven't played it in a long time as well. I've maybe played like five games on it since that update as well that was meant to be a bit of a game changer. like, here you go, now it's even better, um, and the prices of the machines have gone nuts in Australia, like, you can, you can sell a pro for thousands more than, I don't know, it's crazy, and I sold mine at the absolute trough, um, and I do miss it, because it's a, it's a fun game, but I, I jumped on the machine, and I can't remember what game, what song I was playing, and I got to the point of the song where I had to hit the, the shot through the pops, and it was the only it was the only shot lit and i was and and it just and i missed it and and then the ball drained and then i i plunged my second ball i couldn't hit the shot and then i was on my third ball i couldn't hit the shot and that was game over and i was like huh this was my complaint about the game three four years ago and that is still in the game like you can still get changed you can still get stuck with the hardest shot in the game can you imagine jurassic park Like, you're locked out of every mode in the game. You just only had the O-shot. Yeah, and you hit the O-shot to progress on your first ball, and people would say, well, I can't do that. Yeah. The trick there, Ryan, is... Don't suck. If you can't get the pops, because it is quite a difficult shot, right orbit as fast as you can, hard as you can. Hopefully, the pop bumpers will then push it all the way back up on the left. There's a little tip for you. no I think it's more just hit the fucking shot properly don't be drunk no it's obviously it's balked it's not it's not a great shot so if you don't want to go the left orbit go the right orbit because chances are the pop bumpers will just bounce straight back up again there you go thanks Marnie now you fucked up because now I'm going to beat you at the one game that you're unbeatable on I don't think there's more than one but whatever mate they're crazy yeah it was a pretty good score but yeah look i i don't think i don't think it like radically changed the game like it wasn't like a ghostbusters update right it just fixed what was wrong with it made things a lot more rewarding for you rather than it just beating you senseless all the time you know what's funny about the ghostbusters update money is that the way the machine is more balanced now is is not like the lack of multipliers because remember how it was just like if you get 6x going through some fluky skill shot you know you you're gonna win um if you get nothing started um now it's kind of like if you're not in 6x you're an idiot and you've got to get yourself in 6x because it's literally as easy as shooting the left ramp which you can like backhand on the pro and maybe backhand if you've got a properly leveled machine on the premium in alley. And then hit the target bank or the captive ball at this giant section. And then 2x wall light, do it again, and 3x wall light, and you hit those two targets, and you're in 6x. It is the easiest thing ever, and if you're not in 6x, you're not playing the game properly. So it's quite an interesting way to balance the machine out. Instead of taking it away and making it harder, just be in that all the time. Just in case people didn't know how to play the game. I've not played Ghostbusters on the new code. Not once. Okay. No, not even say that. Sorry. When you do... I'm hearing that it's good. We can stream it as well, Marty. Have you got that as well? Not at my house. It's another game that is constantly rented out. Like, who wouldn't want Ghostbusters in their house? Holy shit. Yeah, fair enough. Did you play Primus? Mr. Hashman, our mate that we went to, don't ask us why he's called Hashman, he I believe he might have Australia's only Primus pinball machine and well maybe maybe not are you about to correct me Marty no no no I don't know I was just gonna answer the question whether I got to play it but keep going I've played Wonelly I've played Cancrusher and now I've completed the trilogy and I've played Primus what do you think it's the same shitty game as the other two games so I had completely forgotten that he had it because it was in his house and we were out at the shed out the back of the house so as I was leaving and I went through the house I saw it and I went oh Primus I'm going to play it so I'm pretty much in the minority here because I've not played Pabst Can Crusher but I have played Wonelly and I think it's a lot of fun I really think it's a lot of fun it's tough and it's awkward and it's got weird rules particularly with those up the lanes up the top and the skill shot and all that kind of stuff so it's just you know but that that is that is the rule like if you don't hit those lanes at the top your whole play field is dead no i don't i don't i don't you have to get it up rules wise it's broken i get it oh it's not broken it's just it's just like get it up top and good stuff will happen which is like all the older games but um it's i'm so happy that he has one like i fucking love dave for being that guy who's like hey no one's got it i'm gonna buy it everyone can play it that's why dave's cool that's why he still has like congo like dave will buy you know the stuff so people can play it and he's awesome um i probably wouldn't buy it myself but i love that i can play it and um he won't lose money on it because it's like it's the only like who doesn't want the only people machine of something let me tell you what my impression of it was though because obviously i've played well nearly so i know the layout i know the rules it's all the same it feels the same it's got nice art i really like the art that zombie yeti's done on it let me tell you where what i thought was really weird i thought the audio was just it sounded like it was in a really low resolution and muffled and crackly like almost Lord of the Rings audio quality bad. I just, I just, I don't know. I thought that was just a bit weird or maybe it's just got pox speakers or something. Where are the speakers? Maybe they've got deep root speakers pointing at your dick and maybe your dick was just such a weird angle it was like echoing and... Yeah, I needed to listen with my penis. Yes. so but yeah i do i i like that layout do i want them to do any more games with that layout absolutely not i don't really think i want stern to be doing any more home games either i think that layout being done to death but where are the who has the machine marty who has the machine that we can play the home layout i kind of want to play the home layout I want to play Star Wars I don know anyone So what are they So it was the original Spider home It was then Supreme. It was then tweaked for Star Wars. Am I missing one? And then Heavy Metal. What else was there? Anything else? I feel like there maybe is one in between, but that's a lot. and we, in our amazing friendship circle, we don't know anyone who has any of those machines. No. But I have played the Spider-Man Home Edition. I played that at Papa, and it's a fun game. It really is fun. And people sort of say, oh, it's shallow and the rules. Well, it's no more shallow than monsters. or any solid state that people fucking gag over Marty I'm looking at high res pictures of Primus and there is no speaker in the back panel there is no speaker in the front it must literally just be one speaker underneath I'm guessing yeah there you go there you go I've done nothing else in my week you know I saw you That was a highlight. I like how we're catching up on a year and a half of pinball, but you're like, no, what else did I do in the last seven days? It's not relevant. It was in the last seven days. We started the whole podcast with what have you been doing in the last year? Yeah, okay. So this is more anything that's really stood out, like Alien being revealed by Pinball Brothers. like do you care that it doesn't have the lcd in the middle of the playfield because i do um i care a little bit yeah yeah i mean i was i was going to be really excited if i got it down to a standard body um i don't know how that would have been possible with all the stuff in there and all the shots but it's it's just it's the same game just you know plus and minus some stuff right I think what it's probably going to be is more mechanically sound in that it's going to work but you know I really enjoyed the few games that I had on it I'm glad that it's coming back I'm not necessarily excited about how it's coming back but yeah good that it's coming back yeah it's kind of crazy to think how long ago it was like I kind of I think it was Jess asking me, you know, just in a conversation, a private conversation about Alien. And she's like, what's this Alien pinball machine? And I went to, like, look on YouTube for a video, a gameplay video of it. And then I saw, like, a little thumbnail of me. I was like, ah, I have played this game. And look, ah, that's me with Marty and George. And I'm like, ah, man, we used to, like, this is, you know, during peak coronavirus times. Like, ah, man, yeah, you just forget. He plays so much pinball, and I'm glad that it's not now going to be this distant memory living in the archives of YouTube. It's going to be a real game again. Well, so according to IPDB, manufactured February 2017. So that's like, you know, four years ago, right? Mate, you're in your 40s then. That kind of means that I'd be 44 now. So that's a compliment. I'll take that. Thank you. All right, so let's wrap up this episode by doing something that we loved. And by we, I mean Ryan. I was kind of, you know, partial to it sometimes. But let's do it just for shits and giggles, for old time head-to-head sake. Let's do the twerpies, Ryan. Let's do the motherfucking twerpies. What are the twerpies, mate? The twerpies are the opposite of the twerpies. It's the worst of everything of 2020. Jeff Patterson is an angel and he celebrates pinball. Me and Marty are scumbags and we are haters. And we want to drag pinball down and we want everyone to know that, I don't know, you're an idiot for spending money on things. No, it was always a joke about these guys are doing the best. But sometimes pinball machines, they fuck something up. They have the worst art package because of licensing restrictions or the worst call-outs or whatever it is. So it's the opposite of the Twippies. And we would have definitely done the Twippies, Marty, if we were smart enough to come up with it before Jeff. But we can't copy him, so we have to do the opposite. Well, by copying him, just having a negative slant on it, but still copying. Cool. Okay. Cool. Cool. So we're going to shotgun this, Ryan. You ready? Yep. Okay. Worst theme of the year based on theme only. And these, okay, wait. So the 2020 releases are Stranger Things, Rick and Morty, Hot Wheels, Heist, Heavy Metal, Meltdown? Is it just called Heavy Metal? No, it's just Heavy Metal. Yep. And Teenage Mutant Turtles that are also ninjas, Avengers Infinity Quest, Guns N' Roses, and Led Zeppelin. The worst theme of the year, Marty. Hot Wheels Hot Wheels? The worst thing of the year is heavy metal Easily Nah, I don't know There's something I like about heavy metal I didn't even know I had to Google it If I have to Google it Then it's not worse than Hot Wheels Which I still fucking buy for my kids I don't know I kind of I'm not mad at that And I'm not even mad at Hot Wheels I'm just kind of like I don't get it Okay But just to preface it We've said this before in a year of so many good releases, we're probably going to be nitpicking a lot of these twerpies. Yeah. What's the worst theme integration? The worst theme integration? I'm going to disqualify Heist because it's an original theme. And I think it actually has a really good theme integration. Heavy Metal, I don't know anything about the property. I would have to say... This is so hard, Marty. They're actually really good this year. It's not hard. This is really easy. Led Zeppelin. Oh my gosh, sorry. It was at the end of the list. I wasn't looking at it. Led Zeppelin. It's obviously Led Zeppelin. Yeah. The worst call-outs. Voice work. Witness the form of binary. Avengers. I was going to give you a quote that Stacey and I were laughing at, where it sounds like a guy from Beverly Hills Cop. Not going to fall for the banana in the tailpipe trick. It's really bad The callouts are terrible Victory because of superior technology Yeah, it's not great Worst music or sound Everything but callouts I'll tell you mine Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles Terrible This might be an unpopular opinion Rick and Morty Horrible Horrible Mode sounds Horrible mode sounds I like the sound on it. No, like, have you got Mr. Meeseeks multiball? Like, here you go. Here's a fucking headache in a box. Have you played the Whirly Dirly mode? Have you played Whirly Dirly mode where you just hear Rick going, Whoa! Whoa! In the background for fucking 30 seconds. Whoa! Music. This is music. Everything but call-outs. That is, no, that is the music in the background, Marty. Okay, that's even worse then. No, I liked the sound on Rick and Rick. I'm not sure if anyone's talking about it, but everything else is so good besides the layout. But yeah, anyway. Worst artwork? I'm pretty sure it's Led Zeppelin. I'm just going through the list. It is... I mean, Heavy Metal is pathetic. You know, I don't know. Put Heavy Metal in bed with Led Zeppelin. They can have ugly babies together. It's Led Zeppelin for me. Easy. Yeah. Worst rules or code? Ew. I'm not going to talk about Heavy Metal or Heist because I don't know the games. Or Hot Wheels. What are you thinking, Marty? Stranger Things. TMNT for me. Okay. Because the rules need to make you feel something and the whole code in general. And, yeah. Worst toys or gimmicks? Okay, I'm just going through the list. Stranger Things has fucking nothing. Rick and Morty has some cool stuff. Stranger Things has got the demogorgon. It's got the ramp that comes up. Yeah, the demogorgon, the vagina that doesn't work. Who wants a vagina that doesn't work, Marnie? Not me. Not me. Guns N' Roses, horrible toys. No, it's... Is Led Zeppelin just the spinner that rises up? Yep. That might be really fun, though. I don't know. But this is the thing, right? Even though it's only got one toy, it kind of looks cool. For me, it's Rick and Morty. Rick and Morty? Yeah, I just think the toys just look a little low-res for me. Actually, what are the toys? It's a spaceship with a little coil on it. It's the... I guess you could kind of... House? I mean, that's not a toy. There's the portal. What is a toy? It's just not an interactive toy. Well, I mean, this is kind of the Keith Elwin argument. You look at Jurassic Park, say the pro, and you're like, what is a toy? It's just shots. And people are like, well, it's the truck. Like, ah, it's just a captive ball and a thing. I guess you can say the toy is the Denise-y lock, too. But it's a lock, so it's not a toy. I don't know. How do you define the toy, Marty? I think, for me, it's Stranger Things because the demigorgon doesn't work and the lock doesn't work for everybody with the premium and the LE, the suspended telekinesis ball lock. And it's fucking a pathetic attempt of a pinball machine. Where else we go? Worst layout or gameplay? Stranger things. Stranger things. Easy. Yeah. Stranger things. Worst display and animations? Hot take. every Stern pinball machine. I figured out what they're doing, Marty, the cheap bastards. They're not, like, really animations. Like, if you look at Avengers Infinity Quest... It's static images that move. Yes! It's like the Hulk, and when he's smashing the ground, it's like, Hulk smash! They just wiggle the same image. So they, like, they make a static image, and then they just, like, they just wiggle it, and they screen record it, and, like, this is now a video. That's like a puppet. It's like puppetry of the penis without a penis. And it's just fucking hell. I'm like, I paid $14,500 and you're not moving anything. I don't know, man. And then after that, I started to notice on everything. I'm like, man, I was a sucker. They fooled me for so long. Did everyone else know this? Did I just figure it out now? Yeah, no, we noticed it. It was on Black Knight. It was on, I think, oh, Deadpool had some movement. They can, but they can do it well. Like, the Beatles does it well. Yeah, they do it well because they give you animation effects, but the actual images of the people in the cartoons are static. Yeah. Like when a witness to the form of... Zooming. Yeah, when Captain Marvel, like, flies. Yeah, she's not flying. They just, yeah, they just zoom and make those... Zoom in or pan left and right. Yeah, and in your head you're like, oh, wow, I just saw a chick flying. Like, no, I didn't. I didn't actually see that. yeah best is best is Guns we should have done the best as well anyway Guns and Roses just like makes these things just look so pathetic but keep on going yeah so my worstest playing animations Heavy Metal easy worst game of the year Ryan um I'm not gonna include Hot Wheels Heist and actually no just Heavy Metal Meltdown just what a what is surely it's that I don't know or Stranger Things out of that list. Yeah, it would be Stranger Things for me. And it's not even... I mean, we're shitting on it, but it's because we have to. Like, I... Yeah. It's still actually an enjoyable game. If Stranger Things was in 2019, it would be the fourth best game behind Jurassic Park, Alvira and Willy Wonka. It's probably better than Black Knight. I don't know. Anyway. What's the worst bang for buck? The biggest rip-off? Um. Any stern topper. I think it's heavy metal, right? It's pretty expensive. Yeah, it is. It would be heavy metal. Yep. Worst new pinball reveal. Wow. We're way ahead of our game, Marty. This is, uh. Mm-hmm. Let it go. It was definitely Guns N' Roses. They really fucked that up, Marty, didn't they? Ken Cromwell got employed at the company, and it just all went downhill. No, it was obviously Alien Pinball from Pinball Brothers launching it on a podcast. Ooh, strong take there, Marty. I still haven't listened to it. I'm like an hour into the podcast and then I just got distracted. There's too many podcasts, Marty. And then someone summarise it for me in five minutes. I'll get to it though. It's a great podcast. Great podcast. It is. Here's my favourite category of all. You ready? Worst Pinball Book Deal. Oh my god That was It was between It was between Todd Tucky's book And And what was it And the And the Stern Anniversary book Two years ago It was Between Todd Tucky's book And the Stern 30th anniversary book Right His His Toilet paper book Poor bastards So What do you think Is the worst Pinball book deal Of 2020 Ryan Ah Ah, fuck. I don't know. Wait a second. You missed out on a 2020 release. Punny Factory. Was that a 2020 release? I don't think it's actually been... It's been revealed. I don't think it's been... They haven't sold one unit. That's why they haven't shipped. It didn't ship because of manufacturing issues, just because of lack of interest issues. So, biggest clusterfuck or drama of the year? Ah, fuck. there's only one for me I haven't been I haven't been I haven't been involved in enough drama Marty what's what am I missing biggest clusterfuck or drama it Deep Root launch ah okay but no one got like ripped off or anything like no there wasn't like an uprising no but it was such a big drama you know they were meant to launch on in March and then there was the big countdown to the reveal and then you know you had the Deep Root 6 and the under NDA and then no No, it was a mess. Okay. What's the worst rumoured or upcoming title? Oh my God. Just the glaring, obviously obvious answer is Food Truck. Surely. Is it? Fire and Brimstone. Food Truck, Marty. No. I don't know. There's so many. You could literally just name all six Deep Root titles that aren't licensed games. No, I like Yukon Yeti. Will be good, won't it? Maybe. Secret Whitewater? Dennis Nordman's pretty damn good. Have I mentioned how much I like Elvira? He's not there anymore. Man, Dennis Nordman. He's like a... He just... He jumps into a company and then he just leaves and you never find out why. He's like a ghost. So he... Okay, let's just repeat his last couple of years. So he was hanging out with Andrew Highway. He designed whatever... We don't know how much of Alien. Then disappeared. and then he went and contracted with Stern, designed Alvira, disappeared to Deep Root, designed... Is it just Yukon Yeti or is there two Dennis Omen titles? There's probably a few. I can't remember. And then he disappeared again. He must be just, I don't know, really hard to work with or something. Yeah, I just think... You know what? I think he just knows when it's time to go. Yeah. he left he left Stern at the right time right they just went all downhill after no he got he took a job at Deep Root because they obviously paid him lots of money so who we got so Food Truck is Barry Alsler Gladiator is Alsler Machine Age is Nordman the concept you are dropped into a battle spanning ages beings and time itself help two diesel punk heroes take on the world's greatest threat in this dystopian thriller with the help of a mystery ally. Features, open layout with three first ever mechs, stunning video game quality animations. Um, I remember reading about this and someone said, ah, that's this, like this is what they're trying to rip off, but I can't remember what it was. Like, what's the, do you remember what it was? Like, what is this like? No. Is that like Mad Max or something? Like who, I don't know. Could be. dystopian future anyway so Machine Ages is and the other one is Yukon Yeti okay I look forward to seeing him so there you go so I wonder if I wonder if Jeff Tillis is doing the voice of Yukon Yeti I don't know he hasn't told me so completely unrelated next category worst company image slash public relations um uh is there anything besides Seafruit um Paper Flock how about you ratting on Paper Flock Joel fucking Rubenstein Josh Rubenstein I can't remember his name but you went off you weren't happy he was such a dunk I didn't say the words alright our last category you ready the best one yeah worst pinball podcast it's gonna be us again Marty surely it would have to be it's gonna have to be us We've literally done one episode this year. One. And it's this. Flaming garbage. That's all I can say about this episode. We are trash, Ryan. We are absolute Australian pinball trash. We are. We've fallen from the mighty highs, if you could call it that. Hey, Marty, that's one more episode than Pinhead's Pinball Podcast, so we're doing all right. Okay. All right. There you go. We'll take that. the number one Australian podcast for number of episodes. Yep. Take that. I'll take that. Awesome. So how can people contact us, Ryan? Okay, I don't have access to the email address anymore. I lost that a long time ago. Did you recently kick me off the head-to-head page, Marty, or did I lose access when I disabled my Facebook account? oh you know what it might have automatically done that i did not take you off because i was i was going to post thanks for the accusations the other day when we're at the party and i took a picture with you i was like i'm going to post them head to head and like ah i i can't so can you can you please add me as an admin again money please please absolutely i know definitely did not take you off so that you're doing why would why would you take yourself off facebook anyway i it was i i was chatting to ryan wanger do you know ryan wanger from come at pinball i do know him that guy is like a legend he's like in what he does now he just kind of like drops in and chats to me for like an hour every like couple of months and it's all it's it's just like this amazing thing and he was just like it's like oh yeah being like off social media and it's been amazing and i just watch this Netflix show. And I'm like, say no more. I don't even need to watch the show. I've been wanting to do this for a long time. I'm disabling my Instagram and Facebook until I want to go back on again. And yeah, it was a good little cleanse. And I think I'll just do it every once in a while to just hit the reset switch. And yeah, I guess I just lost access to all the pages I was at before. Well, I'm just sending you a picture on Messenger right now. I have not changed the settings on our Facebook page. Oh, I'm a moderator. Can send Messenger... I don't know. I don't know how to use this fancy Facebook gadget thing. Like, I don't know. How do you do it? Well, yeah, since the purge, you've lost all ability to understand Facebook. I get it. I get it. You're getting old like me. I can edit podcasts though, Marty. I know. Really, really poorly, but I mean, they're getting edited by not you. It's time consuming, isn't it? You know what, Marty? It is so time consuming and boring. And the other day when I did my podcast with Kate, hi, Kate, I just didn't have the time. I had no business recording a podcast that day. I was like literally proposing to a company a couple of hours later. I was meant to be prepping for it. I was like, fuck it. there's only one chance to do it let's do it now and i said don't say the c word kate because i'm not editing this podcast and and i didn't edit it i didn't chop out any awkward silences i didn't get rid of my stuttering i didn't i didn't do anything except put the intro music and the outro music and that's it and i listened back to it and i'm like ah you know what this is good enough like i know this isn't great but i just i think i'm just not going to edit anymore um yeah fair enough and I will save myself four hours and if people like it they like it if they don't I don't know don't listen I don't mind yeah it's kind of like you've got to ask yourself what's the return on investment are you going to double your listenership by spending four hours editing your podcast nope am I going to win am I going to win a Twippy and validate myself nope not going to win a Twippy so I don't care and certainly head to head it's not going to be winning a Twippy ah fucking hey can you still vote please Vote for us in the Twippies. I love Twippies. Oh, do it. Do it. The gag vote. Vote for head-to-head. No, I don't even think we're in the drop-down because we're not on the Pinball Promoters database. What a... What a... Vote for us in the Twippies. But I tell you now, guys, if we win the 2020 Twippy for best podcast, we will start recording weekly again. You know what? If we win the 2020 Twippies for any category, we will start recording daily. This is our promise to you. That's our promise to you. We will set up a Patreon and you can donate money to us. We will... I don't know. There's only two people that really, really want Twippies out there. and it's quite funny to stand back and take a zoomed out view of all of it now and just be like, that wasn't us. I don't think we ever, we actually said don't vote for us. We told people not to vote for us. I reckon we might have had a chance at it if we actually had said we'd vote for us. We did have a chance. I know. Apparently it was very close. We came second and Jeff was just like, you're not telling people to vote. You're not putting up a link on your Facebook page. Don't you want to win? I'm like, no, I don't. Give it. I don't want to solicit votes. Yeah. I mean, and yeah. I mean, we've said it. It's all been said. It's all been said. We have fun doing it because we like podcasting. Pat us on the back and message us. That's enough. An award is something else. Yeah, absolutely. Well, I tell you what, send us a message on Facebook head to head because both Ryan and I will get that message. So that's a way you can communicate to us under the whole head-to-head banner, if you so desire. Otherwise, message us individually, which you have been anyway. Yeah, tell us we've both lost our mojo. Say, guys, what the fuck? You were so good two years ago, and now you guys are...