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Triple Drain Pinball Podcast Ep 50: TPF, MGC, & Travis Is Old Now?

Triple Drain Pinball Podcast·podcast_episode·1h 51m·analyzed·Apr 16, 2024
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claude-haiku-4-5-20251001 · $0.033

TL;DR

Triple Drain Ep 50: TPF recap, Elton John analysis, and pinball market psychology.

Summary

Triple Drain hosts Joel and Tom celebrate their 50th episode while discussing their experiences at Texas Pinball Festival (TPF) and Midwest Gaming Classic (MGC). They analyze first impressions of Elton John by Jersey Jack Pinball, noting strong gameplay but theme-driven hesitation among buyers. The hosts explore broader industry dynamics around pricing psychology, resale value concerns, and the shift from fun-focused purchases to investment-focused decision-making among pinball enthusiasts.

Key Claims

  • Elton John is Jersey Jack's best pinball game in Tom's opinion

    high confidence · Tom states: 'I think the game is amazing... it's probably the best Jersey Jack pinball game, in my opinion.'

  • Elton John has strong gameplay but suffers from polarizing theme that prevents purchase intent despite positive player experience

    high confidence · Travis and Joel note people enjoy playing it but immediately say 'no' when asked about buying it; Travis says 'it's kind of weird. it's just one of those weird pens to where people are really enjoying it, but they don't seem like they're wanting to adopt it.'

  • Pinball enthusiasts increasingly base purchase decisions on resale value concerns rather than enjoyment

    high confidence · Joel: 'there's a lot of people are basing their decision-making over whether they want to get a game today based off how much money they think they're going to lose... it's exclusively the pinball enthusiast who consumes content and all of a sudden, the fun equation is secondary to am I going to lose money on this or not?'

  • TPF had a better vibe than previous years with less crowding and better layout

    high confidence · Travis: 'the vibe at TPF was just completely different than previous years... everywhere you went, people were happy to be there... the lines weren't super long either.'

  • Elton John's flippers felt snappier and more like Stern than typical Jersey Jack spongy flippers

    high confidence · Travis: 'the flippers didn't feel spongy. It felt like it had solid flow. It felt more towards where Stern is... it just had the snappy feel to the flippers.'

Notable Quotes

  • “I've said it before, Elton John is one of the games that I genuinely miss. I miss having. My kids miss me having it.”

    Tom @ mid-episode — Reveals emotional attachment to Elton John despite earlier hesitation about theme/price; suggests deeper regret about selling it.

  • “there's a lot of people out there that are missing out on unique opportunities to play a game over the fear of dropping, what, $2,000, $3,000, $4,000, $5,000”

    Joel @ mid-episode — Articulates core frustration with investment-focused mentality paralyzing casual buyers.

  • “If that layout was Led Zeppelin... it would be a much different story. But there is no staircase in the game, Travis.”

    Tom @ late-episode — Lighthearted acknowledgment of licensing/theme limitations vs. hypothetical stronger IP.

  • “There's not too many other things in life outside of, I don't know, maybe our mortgage or something that we will spend an obscene amount of money on something with hopes that we're going to get a return back on it as something that we will actively use in our daily life.”

    Joel @ late-episode — Unique observation about pinball's unusual position as both hobby and investment asset.

  • “multiple people reminded Travis that Barry Alster did not design Taxi, and I am so grateful for that.”

    Joel @ early-episode — References recurring inside joke from previous episode where Travis incorrectly attributed Taxi design.

Entities

TravispersonJoelpersonTompersonElton JohngameTexas Pinball FestivaleventJersey Jack Pinballcompany

Signals

  • ?

    business_signal: Jersey Jack's recent game pricing/depreciation model creating buyer hesitation; customers cite resale value collapse on non-core-fan themes as reason to avoid purchase despite enjoying gameplay.

    medium · Tom: 'pretty much every last few JJP games, you buy them at that high price, but they don't stay at that price... if you go to resell that game, it's just like an industry second shift with supply and demand.'

  • ?

    event_signal: Texas Pinball Festival includes structured trivia competition with physical prize distribution and crowd-voted answer format; notable for knowledge-based gameplay rewarding pin history expertise.

    high · Joel describes trivia where all six finalists picked wrong answer collectively; switched positions last-minute and won banner based on Barry Alster design knowledge question.

  • ?

    competitive_signal: Travis played Elton John extensively at TPF without focus on rules comprehension; adopted experiential/shot-based approach rather than rule mastery, suggesting casual player strategy.

    medium · Travis: 'I didn't really know the rules or anything... I was just completely focused on just the experience, the shots, and watching other people.'

  • ?

    event_signal: Texas Pinball Festival 2024 attendance appears lower than 2022 (Pulp Fiction/Godfather era) based on reduced crowding and host observations; layout/game distribution improvements compensated for attendance decline.

    medium · Travis: 'it definitely felt like there was less people there... felt less crowded... more pinball machines were there... the layout it seemed like there were more games there than last year.'

  • $

Transcript

groq_whisper · $0.335

0:00
the pinball network is online launching triple drain pinball podcast launching in the episode what episode are we on we're on episode 50 tom this is 50 why don't we episode 50 holy cow episode 5-0 um first off happy birthday travis travis just turned 40 That's 4-0 He's got a D-8 Helix behind him It's just like my regular birthday Nobody's here It's good Welcome to the club Did you blow up all those balloons with your hot air? I did not So Monica actually threw me A surprise party I was not I did not know about it What made it a surprise Some pinball people showed up It was fun We had drinks, and, yeah, one of my neighbors brought this, whatever contraption that is. I don't even know what it is exactly. Thanks for explaining what a surprise it is, Travis.
1:07
As the person that's 40 now, and I think my facial hair is finally going to come in eventually. I'm pretty stoked about that. And, yeah, I'm glad to be on the good side with Tom now on this. I don't know about that right now. What do you mean? Facial hair shows up when you turn 40. I was told this for like the past 25 years. I've been told this. Or 14, you know, one or the other. The hair on your head starts falling off too.
1:39
It's going to migrate down. I mean, I've got enough Native American blood in me. I think I'm fine. It'll be good. It'll be fine. Oh, man. Tom, you good? You ready to go for this? I think so. Tom sounds fired up, to be honest with you. He started hot on this. Got a lot of hot topics, hot takes. And just to make sure, because last time we did this, Tom, and we started off like super hot, Joel forgot to press record. No, we were recording. Did you press the button? We were recording, but I haven't hit the intro song yet. So the people that always skip like 60 seconds ahead are going to hear us talking. Oh, I think I'm doing it. Still talking. Oh, my God. Imagine that. I'm doing it now. We're weird. None of it. This is the 50th episode. Ah, true. We're going to celebrate 50 episodes. Roughly. Travis has balloons. Roughly two hours. I didn't think I'd be Joel's friend for that long. Well, you know. Neither did anybody else, apparently. I haven't started yet, Travis. So, you know.
Stern Pinball
company
Spooky Pinballcompany
Barrels of Funcompany
Multimorphiccompany
Ron Hallettperson
Heart 8place
Wormhole Pinballplace
Chicago Pinball Expoevent
Lumberjack Johnny'splace
Foo Fightersgame
Jawsgame
James Bondgame

market_signal: Pinball enthusiasts increasingly evaluating purchases through resale/investment lens rather than entertainment value; creating market stagnation and buyer paralysis.

high · Joel: 'there's a lot of people are basing their decision-making over whether they want to get a game today based off how much money they think they're going to lose... it's exclusively the pinball enthusiast who consumes content and all of a sudden, the fun equation is secondary.'

  • ?

    community_signal: Jamie operates Wormhole Pinball arcade with tournament programming; has outreach relationship with Triple Drain Podcast for commentary/promotion.

    medium · Joel: 'Jamie, I think is his name, Jamie at Wormhole, he had reached out and said, hey, would you guys be interested in commentating?'

  • $

    market_signal: Elton John experiencing low adoption despite strong gameplay due to $12k+ pricing and theme polarization; buyers fear resale depreciation on non-keeper themes.

    high · Travis: 'people are really enjoying it, but they don't seem like they're wanting to adopt it.' Joel notes buyers ask 'are you getting one?' and 'instantly, no, no, no.' Tom: 'I'm not an Elton John fan... not fun enough for me to risk losing a $2,000 investment.'

  • ?

    product_concern: Elton John shows atypical Jersey Jack flipper characteristics (snappy/solid vs. spongy); shifts toward Stern's flipper feel, suggesting either design evolution or manufacturing variance.

    medium · Travis: 'the flippers didn't feel spongy. It felt like it had solid flow. It felt more towards where Stern is... it just had the snappy feel to the flippers, and the shots felt solid.'

  • ~

    sentiment_shift: Texas Pinball Festival 2024 experienced notably improved vibe compared to previous years; less crowding, better layout, happier attendees, expanded game availability throughout venue.

    high · Travis: 'the vibe at TPF was just completely different than previous years... everywhere you went, people were happy to be there... felt less crowded... more pinball machines were there.' Multiple podcast mentions of layout improvement.

  • ?

    licensing_signal: Elton John theme insufficient to drive sales despite strong gameplay; hosts note hypothetical Led Zeppelin version would perform dramatically better, indicating IP popularity/recognition critical to adoption.

    high · Tom: 'If that layout was Led Zeppelin... it would be a much different story.' Joel notes Elton John is 'polarizing theme... people love the theme or they like it, but not enough.'

    • 3:08
    No, so 50 episodes. Roughly two hours an episode. That's 100 hours of us talking. And to anybody that's listening, thank you. I'm sorry that this is how you're spending your time. but we do appreciate it. We have a lot of fun with this, and, you know, hopefully we can have another 50 more because this is just fun, just fun to come together and talk.
    3:27
    But, yeah, we got a decent amount to cover. The last thing that we recorded was the intro or, like, the prep episode for Texas Pinball Festival. I keep mixing Texas Pinball Festival and Texas Chainsaw Massacre, which we're going to talk about. I mean, they're kind of the same thing. Yes, clearly the exact same thing. But we went to TPF. I say we as in Travis and I were both there. And then I know Tom went to MGC. So he was at a show recently. So just quick blanket statement to anybody and everybody that came up to us and said, hey, you know, thank you. Thank you for saying hi. It was awesome meeting so many cool fans to see Triple Drain merch, you know, to hear people that like the podcast, that listen to the podcast. it's incredibly humbling that people enjoy this conversation. And we really, really appreciate it. And, yeah, thanks for all the support, all the support on Patreon, all the support of just, yeah, people saying hi, shook our hand, gave us a hug, all that stuff. Really, really appreciate it. Also, multiple, multiple people reminded Travis that Barry Alster did not design Taxi, and I am so grateful for that. But Travis got there a day before I did, and he just started texting us every time. He's like, eight people. Eight people have said this within, you know, a few hours. This is my personal hell. Oh, it's so great. And I definitely heard the drop in the groundhog. You know, it's just, it brought me pure joy that we recorded that episode when we did because it basically guaranteed Travis getting heckled for, like, the next. It was great. Didn't you love it, Travis? 72 hours straight. I mean, it's nothing new. It's true. It's nothing new, and it's deserved. That's really what it comes down to. You get a double zero in the finals of a major championship. I mean, you can't let that down. No.
    5:26
    We've gone over this. We've gone over, yeah. I felt bad for Escher. Felt bad for Jason. Elwin obviously needs all the help he can get. So, yeah, I just figured just let the ball drain. Just establish dominance. Yeah, you only need two balls, apparently. Yeah, it didn't work. I lost Joel, so. You guys did a great job announcing the wormhole pinball. Oh, yeah. We became a mini-meme thanks to that as well. Yeah.
    5:57
    That was a good time. It was entertaining. Jamie, I think is his name, Jamie at Wormhole, he had reached out and said, hey, would you guys be interested in commentating? And we, yeah, we were like, yeah, let's give it a shot. Joel's like, I love to talk. Yeah, it was great. Well, I was in the middle of doing, what was it, the trivia. So naturally, I was roughly like, I don't know, three or four whiskeys into the night. And Joel's like, hey, do you want to do pinball commentary? And I was like, why not? We're doing it. Yeah. Joel was all in because he won at trivia at the very beginning somehow. He won a banner or something. Yeah. So at TPF, yeah, I'm real smart. No, I'm smart because I made it. He followed Ron Hallett the whole entire time. That's my guy. Is it? And then he broke away at the end. He's like, I'm going to take a chance. Yep.
    6:45
    So at TPF, they do this trivia night where they get a whole bunch of stuff. So T-shirts, spanners, everything. All the different manufacturers give away a bunch of stuff. And they have these trivia questions, and the way that they do it is there's always – it's either going to be one of two answers. And so there's a whole crowd. If you want to answer A, you go to this side, answer B to that side. And I told Ron Hallett. I told everybody. I was like, I am following Ron Hallett. This guy knows his stuff. He's the only smart part of Pinball Chronicles. He actually knows history. So if you're going to follow somebody, follow Ron Hallett. And so I was. I was following Ron Hallett. And we got down to, I think we got down to like six people. And they were about to just give out prizes to the six people. But they're like, nah, do one more question. And so I don't remember the exact question. I think it was something like, what was Barry Alster's last commercially released game?
    7:44
    Does that ring a bell? And it was between Junkyard and... Not Taxi. I'll tell you that right now. Not Taxi. I forget what the other one was. But all six people, including myself, picked question A. So the problem, what happened was... Answer A. Answer A, yes. What had happened the rounds before was it got down to the same thing. It was like six or five or six people. Everybody picked one answer, and they were all wrong. They were all wrong. And I remembered that. So I was like, we're all on this. Ron seems skeptical. We were all kind of talking amongst ourselves, you know, is it this or this? Well, it depends on if they're going to go with this or that. So we're all standing there, and last minute I jumped over to the other side. So I was the one person that picked the other answer, and guess what? I was the only one that was right. So I was pumped. I won a banner, and if you win a banner, you're not allowed to play anymore. So I was done. So I won a banner and walked away. Felt real good. But good news is Ron Hallett won multiple prizes throughout the night. So if you go to TPF, find Ron Hallett and just follow him. That guy knows his stuff. But, yeah, it was great. It was great doing commentary for the tournament. Travis didn't play in the tournament this year. So TPF for you was a completely different experience, right, than previous tournaments. Oh, yeah. No, it was fun. I got to get heckled. I got to walk around, talk to people, got to actually eat barbecue, which was nice down there. Texas barbecue is fantastic. Oh, yeah. We went to this one place. What was it? Heart 8? Heart 8. That's the one I said you got to go to. That's the one Brian Shepard took Neil and I to. Yeah. Heart 8. Yeah. It was fantastic. I definitely would recommend people go to it. That was awesome.
    9:27
    What did you say, Travis? Sorry? No, I was saying I would definitely go to that. That was awesome. It was excellent. Yeah. Don't even go for the pinball anymore. Just go for the barbecue. When you go to a barbecue place in Texas, you have to go, you have to wait in the line. You have to go up to the counter and say, I want a half pound of that. I want that. It's not like a sit down. No. You know, and they bring it to you. No. It's freaking awesome. All the meat's out on display. Yeah. All the meat's out on display and you're just, give me a little bit of this and that. And they weigh it and then they pay you. My only complaint is. They pay you too? Yeah. You pay them. I gotta go to this place My only complaint is you know while I'm waiting for my food I was looking around and I'm like man if I had a pinball machine To play right now that's really what I just feel like a barbecue restaurant Needs a pinball machine I don't know what theme Necessarily That's what Joel did Joel was getting his meat and everything He's like do you guys have any barbecue challenge here That I could play That's how Joel's town's in Texas Legitimate It was a whole deal Like, Neil McCray was there. I think Bob was there. Like, it was a whole deal. It was a great time. Just throwing us off. No, it was a great place. Like, if you get a chance to go to TPF, just in general, just the atmosphere is awesome because of that. Because you get to see a lot of friends. You get to play a lot of pinball. If you're into tournaments, you get to play tournaments. If you're not into that, there's all this other stuff to do. Yeah. Like, what is it? Like, a big smoke for cigars. You've got arcade games that are there. You've got vendors that are there. You got plenty of food to go eat. And this year, I enjoyed this year so much more than previous years for a variety of reasons. Not just, like, not playing the tournament. Like, I wasn't stuck there the whole time. But I don't know. Just the vibe at TPF was just completely different than previous years. I don't know why that is exactly. It's because people weren't fighting over Twippy or... Yeah. Well, it could have been that. I don't know. It was like everywhere you went, people were happy to be there. There wasn't any grumpy people there. There weren't people complaining at all besides, I don't know, maybe my sons because I wasn't playing Cuphead well enough with them. But how about that? Yeah, they had a Cuphead arcade there.
    11:49
    It's a video game. Yeah, it's a video game that's very hard to play. Yeah, exactly. My hand-eye coordination does not apply to that. Pinball, yes. But no, everything else, it was just, I don't know, it was fun. And I tried to make it a point to go to different seminars, to talk to as many people as I could. I know I didn't get to talk to everybody, but I don't know. It was just a different vibe. And the lines weren't super long either. So it felt like that there was less people there, but more pinball machines were there. So they had pinball machines even out in the hall this time. And that just made it just so much better. That's cool. Even though Joel and I got kicked off a machine day one, still, after that, I got over that, and it was just so much better. Well, did they know who you were? No. To them, Travis was a person without a wristband. That's all he was to them.
    12:42
    No, it was awesome. You know, some of the other podcasters have talked about this. They changed the layout of the room, and I think, I don't know, I haven't seen official numbers, but it definitely felt like there was less people there than last year. And so just overall, it felt less crowded. So, you know, I remember two years ago, two years ago when Pulp Fiction was released, that was the thing. It was like the line that you would wait in that forever or that's when Godfather was released. So it's like a lot of people waiting in line for Godfather, a lot of people that had like one Weird Al, one or two. So a lot of people waiting in line for Weird Al and then a lot of people waiting in line for Pulp Fiction. And Pulp Fiction is a rather brutal game. so you get up there and play and it's just like I just remember that it felt crowded it felt tight not this it felt just the layout it seemed like there were more games there all the games that you want to play were there um and maybe it was a combination of more games less people better layout but it was just really awesome it was really relaxed really nice I would say this I've said this before if if you love this hobby and you if there's any chance you can go to a pinball show, I would prioritize either Chicago Pinball Festival or Texas Pinball Festival. Chicago Pinball Expo or Texas Pinball Festival. Those two, I've been to both. They are both fantastic. And it's the best way to meet people. There's a lot of people from the industry there. So, you know, a bunch of people from JJP as well as Stern, all the Spooky guys were there. All the Barrels of Fun guys were there. Multimorphic team was there. It was great. Now, which one do you like better? What? Between the two shows? Yeah. Let's get you off the fence. I'll say TPF. I've been to both. I thoroughly enjoy TPF. Much better than Expo. It's not that Expo's bad. Yeah. It's just the vibe of TPF. I just like it a lot better. TPF, it's warm. It's warm. Except for it raining the whole time we were there. But it's warmer down there. There's really good places to walk and eat food. So it's just the location is better. I do like Chicago, though, because I can drive. I can drive there. I'm there. and there's more industry people at Chicago because it's Chicago but no it was great it was really really good didn't you just name off everybody though pretty much that was there at CPF but like Stern brings like every Stern employee to Chicago it's you know there was a handful of them there at was Keith there? Keith was not because it was Keith's birthday so happy birthday Keith was Raymond there? Ray Day was not because he's a bum you just said everybody was there No, I said a handful of people were at Texas. No, he's talking about TPF. Tom's talking about Expo. Oh, Chicago, yes. Everyone was there. Everybody was there. Yes. Texas, I ran into. I feel like right now. Dwight Nolte was there. Yeah. This isn't even about TPF and Expo anymore. This is about you sucking up to Stern. No, no.
    15:39
    Anybody can look and see, oh, these people are there. Tom, where do we exit? off here to the athletic portion. That's not what I said. I wasn't like, hey, I've got to hang out with my friends. Oh, by the way, their names are George Goldman. No, that's not what I said. I wasn't doing that. You weren't name-dropping at all. Tom said who was there. So I was listing the names of who was there. That's not name-dropping. That's answering your question.
    16:07
    So let's actually go through the games. We did this last time, but let's actually give our first impressions here.
    16:14
    And we'll start with Elton John. Why not? I know I've streamed Elton John. I've played the heck out of it. Travis actually had a chance to put some time on Elton John. Typically, when I looked for Where's Travis, I found you a lot on Elton John.
    16:29
    If you guys want to share that. Tom, why have you not bought an Elton John yet? It's just mainly the theme. I like Elton John music. Don't get me wrong.
    16:40
    Theme and price. Their price is kind of high. You know, don't look at the Ullies behind me. But I can also go down the street and play one because there's one at Lumberjack Johnny's in Appleton. Okay. So, and he, Dave Oshufsky, the owner, he put his collector's edition there, too. Oh, wow. So, really nice. Really nice game.
    17:09
    I think the game is amazing. Like, it shoots well. It's great. It's probably the best Jersey Jack pinball game, in my opinion.
    17:19
    But, yeah, it's just the theme. The theme doesn't, like, totally grab me. But if I was a huge Elton John fan, I would have one in my house right now. Yep, that makes a lot of sense. Travis, why did you keep playing it all the time at TPF? It was fun to play. When it comes to the theme, I'll be honest, I don't care for the theme at all. I know some Elton John songs, but seeing how I'm a young 40, a very young 40, I don't know too many. I didn't grow up on Elton John, basically. So, you know, but the pen shot great. I thoroughly enjoyed that. And I think I was just surprised that it. And so here's the thing. And we've talked about this back and forth. And this is either going to sound like a diss or it's going to sound like a great thing. I don't know. But it didn't feel like a JJP. Oh, wow. Sick burn, bro. Well, you know, there's somebody out there that's like, oh. What I'm getting at is that the flippers didn't feel spongy. It felt like it had solid flow. It felt more towards where Stern is, right? And it matched what Stern does in a lot of spots. And that's not to say like Godfather or Wonka or something like that did it. It just had the snappy feel to the flippers, and the shots felt solid. There was a couple of really cool shots there, too, especially whenever the ball got launched and you saw it go around, I guess, the habit trail or whatever you want to call it. It just loops around real quick. Yeah, there's just some cool shots there. So, you know, those parts were cool to me. The sound package, it sounded a lot better in person than what I was expecting because it's just like with Toy Story, right, just kind of sound like a slot machine with Boy Story 4. I didn't really get that feeling as much with this, and I don't know why that is. Maybe because it just doesn't have those types of sounds. I don't know. But either way, the game was just fun to shoot. I didn't really know the rules or anything. I wasn't really paying attention to the rules. I just knew, well, if I put the ball here enough, multiple will start there. If this is enough, something will happen there. But I was just completely focused on just the experience, the shots, and watching other people and asking other people, hey, what do you think? I mean, overwhelmingly, people were really enjoying playing the game. But the key part was, is I would ask them, well, are you going to, are you looking at getting one? And it was just instantly, no, no, no. So it's like, it's kind of weird. And I don't know if that's, I didn't dig any further. I don't know if that's pricing. I don't know if it's theme, but it's just one of those weird pens to where people are really enjoying it, but they don't seem like they're wanting to adopt it. I don't know why that is. I think it's price. I honestly do. Well, price plus you look at pretty much the last few JJP games, you buy them at that high price, but they don't stay at that price. I mean, if you go to resell that game, I feel like it's just like an industry. Second shift with supply and demand, too, if not a lot of people are buying it. Look at Pirates. Man, Pirates goes for crazy money. Yeah. So pinball, yeah, the pinball enthusiasts, everybody's just in this weird spot. And I've been noticing this a lot in the past several months. And we've talked about this, too, off the podcast and everything, that there's just a lot of people are basing their decision-making over whether they want to get a game today based off how much money they think they're going to lose. Yeah. Right? And so it's kind of like, it's this weird spot because there's a lot of people out there that don't consume pinball content that don't do that at all. They just want to buy a game because they're like, oh, pinball's fun. I have disposable income. I want to play the game. I'm going to get the game. I'm going to play it. Whereas I've noticed it's just, it's exclusively the pinball enthusiast who consumes content And all of a sudden, the fun equation is secondary to am I going to lose money on this or not? It's almost like that's the game they're playing instead of the actual game of just playing pinball. You know, and I get it if that's how somebody wants to approach it. Right. And that's all they know. It is what it is. But at the same time, I feel like there's a lot of people out there that are missing out on unique opportunities to play a game over the fear of dropping, what, $2,000, $3,000, $4,000, $5,000, which is a lot of money. Don't get me wrong. That's a valid fear, yeah. Don't get me wrong. But, yeah, that's if you plan on selling it, right? So it's just kind of like, I don't know. If you budget correctly and you're approaching it, well, what's my fun factor going to be? like why not go for it I just feel like there's so many people get frozen right they freeze themselves out from even buying a game from playing a game from even thinking about the game and then they want to wait several months down the road but you know what happens they're waiting for some magical game to come out and then when it does or doesn't come out they're still frozen and then they're still not buying a used game anyways that's the weirdest part because otherwise we'd be seeing these games just going through the paces and being sold left and right, and we're not really seeing that. And that's the curious part about Elton John. I'm sure it'll happen eventually, but from the people that I am aware of that have bought the game, they're all extremely happy with their purchase. You know, it's the same way with Jaws. Everybody's extremely happy with their purchase. And the funny part is, it's the same thing with Venom. Obviously, sales weren't quite where CERN or anybody else wanted them, but the people that are buying it are happy with their purchase overall. It's pretty rare that somebody buys a game that decides to take that leap of faith and they're just, like, crushed by it. They're just so pissed off that they bought that game and they want nothing to do with it. I'm not saying it doesn't happen, but it's rare. I think it's clear that if you're an Elton John fan and you're a pinball fan,
    23:32
    like especially if you're a diehard Elton John fan, you bought the game, You love the game. But I think for many years, people were willing to just, oh, I'll buy a game. Worst case, I sell it and I get my money back or I lose a little bit of money. I mean, there was a lot of people, especially when demand or the supply was down, they would buy almost every new release, every stirring game, just like, whatever, I'll buy it. I'll put some games on it and I'll sell it. There was no – it wasn't a worry. But Elton John, I think there's a lot of people in this hobby that are like, I'm not an Elton John fan. But, boy, does that game look fun, but not fun enough for me to risk losing a $2,000 investment because they've already made it out in their head where it's a theme that I don't want to own. So it's not going to be a keeper. I'm not going to be tempted to keep it. So if I buy it, it's just going to be for a period of time before I want to sell it, and they're just not taking that chance. But, honestly, I've said it before, Elton John is one of the games that I genuinely miss. I miss having. My kids miss me having it. My brother asked about the game. Like, it's really, really good. And I bet there are people that bought the game with the intent of, yeah, I'll own it six months maybe and then turn on to the next one. And I don't know if they're selling it. I haven't really seen them on the used market. It just seems like a lot of people are owning it. You never know. And what you just said is completely valid. If you are not a huge fan of a theme, yeah, it's probably not the smartest thing to be plopping down thousands of dollars for a product. unless you absolutely know what type of layouts you like and what type of gameplay you like. And that's how I'm able to judge a lot of games that I bring in is it's not just the theme, but if I feel like I'm going to have fun to a certain extent with what the layout is, how the rules are, so on and so forth, then, yeah, I'm going to think about getting that game. And everybody's going to buy for different reasons. I just think if you are exclusively in this hobby because you want to be able to buy a game, not lose any money or buy a game just to flip it and make a profit in the future, you're going to be in for a rough time because that's not where the industry is at. And that's not where it's going to be for a very, very, very long time. Because there's so many companies coming out with games. Supply, right, has met demand for the most part. Stern is cranking out games.
    25:51
    So, like, you're going to just, you're basically just making yourself set on the sideline. what I would encourage people is if you have a theme that you want get the game and enjoy the game like why not Tom let me ask you this because you buy a lot of LEs but like when you bought Foo Fighters like Foo Fighters is a big band like you're a big fan of that so when you bought the LE it was a I have full intention of owning this game for a long time same thing with Jaws you bought Jaws LE I have plans on owning this for a long time but you bought originally you bought a Bond Pro So, like, clearly when you bought the Bond Pro, it wasn't with the mentality of I'm going to own this a long time. You bought it for what reasons? Yeah, well, mainly just to play it. You know, being a pinball fan, I was like, well, you know, I'm going to give this game a chance. But I immediately put it on route, too. So it's not like I had it in my house where I could, you know, play it every night if I wanted to. I'd have to drive to a location to play it.
    26:57
    But the Bond, and it was mainly because of the Bond theme. It's just not a, you know, I wasn't into watching Bond movies growing up. You know, I watched a few of them, but it just wasn't something that like really grabbed me. but now I own a bond premium because I like, I like the gameplay and stuff. Yeah.
    27:24
    Yeah. But I think it's interesting. You had a mentality buying that pro of like, I'm going to basically take a chance. I'm going to take a chance on this. But yet it's easy to do that with a pro or pro pricing, but you're saying it's, you can't just, you're not going to take a chance on a $12,000 Elton John is what I'm hearing.
    27:45
    Yeah, pretty much. Okay. I hearing it from a lot of people is really what it comes down to I mean I have a local collector friend who he flips games all the time But it just like there something about that threshold of like a investment But what's interesting is, you know, I'll see him, he'll buy two pros, you know, without second guessing it. And that's the same amount of money. but yet like, and it's just a mental thing of like two games is a lot easier to digest, to flip those than one game. That's, I don't know. It's just, it, it just comes down to threshold is all it is. It comes down to threshold and it comes down to you as the end consumer, like whether it's you, Joel, you, Tom, or you, the listener, or you, the viewer out there, it just comes down to what do you value?
    28:36
    And if you value playing pinball, you value fun, if you value bringing something in for your family to play, for you to play, you'll figure out how to make it work if it fits within your budget. Now, if you value money more than that, like that's your priority. And yeah, of course, you're going to view it through that prism that I don't want to lose X amount of money. Right. You know, and it's a unique thing. There's not too many other things in life outside of, I don't know, maybe our mortgage or something that we will spend an obscene amount of money on something with hopes that we're going to get a return back on it as something that we will actively use in our daily life. And for whatever reason, like, pinball has been just brought into that. And that's fine. It's just there's a lot of people out there, though, that are out there that enjoy pinball for what it is. It's a game that's meant to be played and it's meant to be enjoyed. And that's where their priority and their focus is. Like, neither one's wrong. It's just people just view it through different ways. I mean, that's perfectly valid from both sides. Yeah. Well, we've got a lot more games to go through.
    29:41
    But I know I agree. It's weird. Elton John, I just feel like that game has genuinely done everything right. Everything right except for it's just a very polarizing theme. And not that people love or hate the theme. It's just I think people love the theme or they like it, but not enough. And it's just tough. Let's face facts. If that layout was Led Zeppelin. Oh, yeah. Or, yeah, that's fair. I mean, we'll just say the quiet part out loud. That's what everybody's thinking. That layout was Led Zeppelin. It would be a much different story. But there is no staircase in the game, Travis. You know? Yeah, of course you need that. Yeah. You have to remove the piano. It's just a guy walking upstairs. That's all it is. Like I said, it's different companies. It's different bombs. It's different strategies. It's different licensors, like, allowing stuff, approving stuff. Sure. Yeah, this is just like a pie-in-the-sky thing of saying, oh, yeah, it would have been this. Like, of course, yeah, if they would have put $50,000 worth of R&D into just one machine and sold it for $5,000, they would probably sell, like, a million of them, but they wouldn't make anything back. So, yeah, it's a unique industry. Yeah, so what is it? Like, Jersey Jack? Are we giving two thumbs up? I think they're doing it. One else is gone? I don't know a single person that has played. I don't know any other podcaster. I don't know anybody that's played the game and had anything negative to say the art's great, the sound's great. There's nothing negative about the game. It's just at the end of the day, it's Elton John. Yeah, price and thing. Price and Elton John. Yep. That's fair. That's valid for people to say that. I think the game, if it was priced at a Stern premium, we wouldn't be having this conversation. Right. That's true. The question is, would that game be able to be priced at that? That's the question. Would it still look like it does? Oh, man, that's a great question. Am I not? Well, what was a Guns N' Roses, not standard, but the LE? What was that price? I think it was about $8,000 when it first came out. That was a lot of inflation to go, though. That was a whole other lifetime. I just think I'm pretty confident if somebody sold a used Elton John for under $10,000, it would be on pin side for one minute. It'd be gone. Yeah, one minute. No doubt. because the demand is there. I actually think people want the game, but people just are frozen at $12,000 new in box. They're just frozen. They're waiting for used, and this may be one of those games in five years that people are clamoring for them because not a ton of, you know, I don't know. So here's a great question. First world problems. Yeah, exactly. What would a standard, I know we've got to get to other games, but what would a standard look like for Elton John? Because we know that a standard was out for Guns N' Roses, And there's a reason why they don't do standards anymore. Yeah, I think you'd have to take all the toys out. Well, yeah, no moving Elton. No, you wouldn't have the LEDs on the piano. Would the sideline just be a target, you think? I think you could leave the layout. I think just like the crocodile bops up and down. That could be a static thing. There's a rocket ship hold. I'm going to lean into this joke, Joel. I just totally no-sold it. It's an awesome joke. Try it again. Maybe the second attempt will be better. Okay, I'll try. Sorry. I probably stuttered over my one second. Hang on. Yeah, this is, let me edit. Just find the script that you wrote for the jokes. I didn't write this one. Okay, try it again. They should probably just take the side ramp and just put a target there instead.
    33:18
    Oh, yeah, like what they did in Led Zeppelin. Yeah. That didn't land at all, did it? Dammit We've only people Really dropped a round On that one Travis Oh man I like the game I'll end it there I like the game It's fun to play It says something if you don't like the theme But you keep coming back to play the game Absolutely I'm looking forward to playing it more Honestly Transition Jaws Jaws, Tom, you've had your LE a while now. Have your overall thoughts on Jaws changed at all?
    34:04
    No, it's a great game. Okay. Solid review. Yep. Thank you. B plus? Yeah. I don't know. Two thumbs up. A plus. Okay. I played the premium. I played the premium at Texas. I had not played the premium before. For whatever reason, I felt like hitting that upper play field was harder. It doesn't make any sense because the wave ramp is the same wave ramp. I think it is just a more challenging shot because you have to hit it clean. But I loved it, man. I loved it. That upper play field is unlike any other upper play field I've played because it's so fast. You got to know what you want to do on the upper play field before you hit the shot because otherwise it's just off. It's off the upper play field. It's just so much better having the shark come out of a play field and bashing it. That is really neat. That captive ball over and over again. That is really neat.
    35:03
    Just because you mentioned the shark, the Shark Eater mod, the guy has released a premium version of that mod. I know I had some strong takes, so strong views on that mod. Yes, there's a premium version of it. Well, I mean, I will give the guy props. What he's done from a mechanical engineering standpoint is really impressive, the guy, what he's done.
    35:24
    But with that said, now that I've played the complete game, as in Elwin's full vision of the game, the premium, I have zero complaints with the way the shark is. I don't, I don't, no bit of me feels that that shark needs to eat the ball. No bit of me. I like how quick it is. You heard it here, air quotes, Joel said. Joel approved, stamped. Yes. I just think, honestly, if the shark ate the ball, it would have to be for a final wizard mode moment. I don't want that every single time. It would have to be a big moment. And on a side note, I have a Star Wars right now that I've been borrowing, and it's a premium. Blowing up the Death Star is a really cool moment. But that's the only time in the game where the Death Star mech opens up. The only time. And so I've streamed that game twice. I've played it for roughly four-plus hours. I've seen that mech open up one time, one time. And that to me, it's just, I don't, I just, I'm not saying it's a waste of money to invest in a mech that rarely people are going to see, but Jaws, I'm glad, I'm glad the shark doesn't eat the ball every single time. And if it was a mech that only happens in one mode, it would be a waste of a mech. I'm glad that Elwynn chose to use the bomb, the money in other places. So I do feel I had a blast with the pro when I was streaming it. I really enjoyed playing the premium. I think Zach has intention of getting me a premium at some point to stream, hopefully when there's a next, you know, a next major update kind of thing. So I'm really looking forward to playing that game more. Travis, I know you played the heck out of it because the pinball company has made multiple tutorial videos on it. Do you have any hot takes on, like, longevity of this? A lot of people are, where's Jaws going to fall in the realm of Elwynn games? So when it comes to design and everything, I probably put it just in the middle of the pack with everything. And that's not a bad thing. It's just Godzilla is excellent. Jurassic Park is excellent. And I honestly feel like Jaws is excellent as well. So I would put it – I personally like it a little bit better than Avengers. And I loved Avengers. I'm a huge fan of all that. But there's just something about the upper play field that really brings it all together and just seeing that shot, seeing everything whip around. So for me, that's just a lot of fun. And I think, too, as the code matures more, I'm curious to see where that goes. Exactly. Because I feel like there's a lot of other things in this game that we haven't quite scratched the surface with. Yeah. In terms of figuring out whether scoring or whether we're figuring out the fish finder targets a little bit more, since they just now added a wizard mode associated with that. So, yeah, it's just taking time to wait for it. But, I mean, overall, I've got no complaints. I think it's been selling great for us. I mean, it's hard to keep them in stock. A lot of people just enjoy the game overall, and I think people are hearing about it more and more. So I think it's going to be around for a pretty significant time, more than what people realize. And even if people are trying to compare it to Godzilla and Jurassic Park, it's like, guys, those are two all-time banger pins compared to everything else. So if this game is getting compared to those, that's a good thing. You know, it's not like we're comparing it to something that might be like the 200 best pin ever made or something like that. So, no, I'm happy with it overall. I think it's really good. And, yeah, I think people will be pleased to keep playing it for a long time. The premium is great. If you have the LE, I'm super jealous, like what Tom has behind him. But, yeah, you can't go wrong with the premium at all. Yeah. Real quick, I do. I think this is real. but from the three of us I think this is real from the three of us at Triple Drain Hi George Gomez, thank you for listening to our podcast and the reason I say that is because apparently I was talking to Elizabeth Gieske, she works for Stern she said after our last episode of Triple Drain when Travis complained about the ball eating, the shark eating his ball and the ball getting stuck under the playfield she's like I think George might listen to your podcast because 24 hours after your podcast came out, all of a sudden there was like a full group meeting on like, you need to fix this. And, again, they fixed it. So if Gomez happens to listen to this podcast, then thanks. Thanks for listening. But apparently, I don't know. I think she's giving you credit, Travis, for pushing up that on the priority table. So look at you go. I'm willing to bet they probably already thought about it. I'm going to give them the benefit of the doubt that they know what they're doing there. That could be valid. I was trying to give you something, but, you know, whatever. I'm an idiot, Joel. You know this. Okay, let's clip that real quick. No.
    40:21
    Well, cool. Okay, Jaws. Still a great game. Really looking forward to playing it more. Labyrinth. I know I've played the heck out of the game. Travis, you had played Labyrinth at XSquad. I remember that. Played it for a little while. Yeah, and that's the last game you beat me on, so I still remember that. Yep, I knew you did. Make sure it's great. Yeah, it did not happen again. Oh, he beat you too? I had the GC on that game for, I don't know, it was there. Maybe it was GC, but it was good. Tom, you had played it at Expo or you played it at MGC or what? I did not play it at MGC. I played it at Expo a little bit, and then there is one at Lumberjack Johnny's. I haven't really played it that much. Do you know from a routing standpoint, has it done well on route? Has it held up well on route? Do you know any information like that? From my understanding, it has not held up super well on route. Okay.
    41:22
    Typically, they've been taking it out of some tournaments that we've had. So it's just had some small issues. Okay. Interesting. Yeah. It's nothing. I don't think anything like extravagant, but they have.
    41:41
    Almost the entire Barrels of Fun team was there. It was a joy talking to them. They had a seminar, and my one takeaway with them as a company is everybody that works there genuinely seems to love their job. And it just seems like they're a very passionate organization. They're working hard on the next few games, but they're also working really hard to get the current games out. and it seems like customer service has been great, responsiveness has been great. So I know there's a lot of people waiting on their labyrinth. You know, enjoy it. Wait. You know, I think you'll get the game, and I don't know. I'm excited for you. It had lines the whole time.
    42:17
    I did have an opportunity when I was there. They had the original Whitewood there, and to play a Whitewood, it was cool to see. You just don't realize how much art and inserts really do affect the game in a really positive way. But it was cool. It was really cool. And the new topper, the topper's awesome.
    42:36
    Mark Silk did all the voices for the goblins in the topper, and apparently he filmed, I think it was like 60-something scenes. So depending on what's going on in the game, they react and talk at you and react to what you're doing. So if you have the game, get the topper. The topper really was really, really neat. Carl over at IU Pinball is streaming right now. and he's doing a really good job showing off the game. So still a great game.
    43:03
    I don't know. Tom, you going to buy one or no? You're still not? Again, it's just not a theme I'm really interested in. Okay. So I might buy the next barrel as a fun game. You never know. True. And that's my brother keeps telling me he misses Labyrinth a lot, and I'm not planning on buying one just because it's not a theme I crave, but it was a really good game. But speaking of games Have you guys seen the movie? I have, yes Is it any good after the first 30 minutes? You should finish it It's weird It's just a weird movie So why should I finish it? Because The thing is weird Because things start to make a little more sense You would Get like David Bowie bulges in the movie I'm going to figure that part out That's what you're saying? You know, they don't go into detail on why We just said things are going to make sense. So that was my only question. There's some conclusion to it. I don't know. Whatever. Waste your time however you want to, you know. If you want to watch – I'll tell my wife, hey, we've got to watch Labyrinth. As Joel said, there's going to be a conclusion to David Bowie's bulge on the last half of the movie. Moneyball for the 15th time or whatever. Moneyball? I don't know. I just saw baseball. I'm in the middle of watching Mission Impossible. That's what I'm trying to watch right now. You know, I saw a meme online, and they're like, Mission Impossible 9. It sounds like these missions are actually pretty possible at this point. I just thought that was – I wonder if that would be a good theme for Pinball, Mission Impossible. No, we've got to do Fast and Furious, where they end up on the moon or something like that. We already had cars. We've got cars in our barbecue. We've never landed on the moon, Travis.
    44:49
    Speaking of games that we are going to buy, Travis is going to buy a P3. He's going to buy a multi-morphic game because Monica loves Princess Bride. He's going to do that. He already lost the love and respect of his children. He doesn't want to lose the love and respect of his wife. So she wants Princess Bride. I think it's happening. We've made it close to 20 years. I'm over the hump. I don't have to do shit, Joel.
    45:16
    She did love the game. She did love the game, yes. Talk about the game, Travis. You blew it up. I had a chance. I played it with Dennis and Tony from Eclectic Gamers Podcast. We stood in line and watched you play, and you blew it up. Colin was there explaining the rules.
    45:32
    Must have been nice. Yeah. To have a pinball caddy. No, it was fun overall. I mean, it's – so, you know, we've talked about the P3 platform several times on this show. And I'm sure for those that have been with us for a couple of years, everybody remembers our show from a couple of years ago in which Tom and I caught some arrows on some of our comments. And Joel did his usual sit on the fence thing. So he came through unscathed. But, you know, our big complaint has always been that everything's in the back third of the play field. Right. Now, I've said this a bunch of times. I feel like it's perfectly valid to say that. So it is what it is. But I entered this game knowing that, okay, that's what it's going to be. And for what it was, I think that they did the best that they possibly could with this theme, considering what the platform allows them to do, if that makes sense. So I feel like the rules were very well integrated into it with what Colin has done. It made a lot of sense. I didn't feel lost while playing the game. I think if you are a if you're I don't know how to word this, if you're an average player, I think you're going to enjoy the game a lot because the shots are wide open it didn't feel like the shots were overly difficult to do and of course that obviously is most likely by design, that was the intention of it the Cliffs mech was actually pretty cool though, I did like that how the ball got the magnetizer or whatever went up and you got to see it do its thing, that was pretty cool it just, the only true downside that I could really think of that in the middle of playing, I was like, okay, it didn't feel like I needed to use this at all was the upper flippers. Because I found myself, it just felt so strange having to do two separate sets of flippers with that, that I ultimately just bailed out, and I barely even used my upper flippers. But I did like how the platform allowed you, during some of the scenes, one of the rules is to use the same side with your hand. Yeah, the sword fighting mode. Yeah, yeah, that was interesting. And obviously it's been done before. I think American Pinball did it with October Fest. Yeah. So, I mean, it's not like this is brand new, but it's something that's a little bit different. It was on point with the theme, and it made sense. So things like that I could appreciate on it. But, yeah, I asked Monica on it because I'm not a huge Princess Bride fan, right? So I'm not going to be able to judge it too much on the theme or anything like that. But I asked my wife, who's a massive fan, and she was just like, yeah, this is exactly what I would want out of a pinball machine in terms of just the overall vibe or the feel of everything that's going on with the call outs, the scenes, getting to see everything on there. You know, you get to see something come to life. And so I can respect that because somebody like her, unlike us three knuckleheads, you know, she's not jaded by the industry at all. You know, she's off to the side and she just sees a theme that she likes. And I think there's a lot of people out there like that that see this that may not be viewing the game through the prism of, well, this has to have like an awesome layout or this has to have just top tier rules that I can go super deep and get to these ultra wizard mode. I think a lot of people are just looking at it from the standpoint, does it have assets in the game and does it feel like the theme that I remember when I was a kid? And it seemed like, according to her, that checked all those boxes. So in that regard, Multimorphic did a great job. So, Tom, if your wife came to you and said, this pinball machine has everything that I want in this theme. She's not going to say that, but go ahead. But if she did, if she's like, I love this theme, this pinball machine has everything I want in this game, I really like this game, would you buy it or would you just say? If my wife was like, we need to get this pinball machine, I would get it. That's a good, that's really good of you. That's a good, that's a quality. You've got to have something, Joel. Are you trying to guilt me into buying this machine? I'm not saying anything about you, Travis. I have a Stern Pirates right over there that I spent an obscene amount of money for several years ago that I should have never even spent it on it because my wife wanted that machine. So she gets one, is what you're saying. I have a bunch of these ends over there that she wants, too.
    49:55
    No, I don't. Hopefully you can't listen to this. You're right. Okay. I would say I think if you are currently a P3 owner, buy Princess Bride. You will enjoy the game. I think your guests will enjoy the game.
    50:10
    It's incredibly well done. They have so many movie clips, so many movie assets. The layout, like just watching the different modes, the modes look unique. I really like how the rules are set up where you get to kind of choose your mode so it's not crazy linear and getting bored. The ball going up the cliff. Yeah, the magnet. There's some really, really neat stuff. And unique, like watching Travis play, and he's in that sword fighting mode where, you know, they're playing left hand or they're fighting, they're only holding the sword with their left hand. So, like, you're controlling the whole game just on your left hand. Watching Travis do a post pass with only his left hand, you know, between his pointer finger and his middle finger, it's like, okay, that was pretty cool. That was pretty impressive. And then all of a sudden in the mode, they switched to the right hand. It's pretty handy, Joel. Yeah, he's skilled. Yeah.
    51:00
    Wow. So I think overall – Yeah, I mean, overall, I'm just showing you my hands because Tom said he's pretty handy. Yeah. And I'm like, yeah, I can play off this. It was good. It took 50 episodes to get to this – Yeah. This – Hey. I didn't think that much. Travis, do you want to try your joke again? Do you want to try it again real quick? Maybe a third time's better. Do you want to try it? No? Tom, do you have the beef on here? Do I have the what on this? I'm not going to cuss. I told myself no more F-bombs for the year. But I think it's – You're testing my soul. I would say that it's in a similar vein of Elton John. I think it's a really good theme. I think the game's really well done, but it comes back to price. If you don't have a P3, you're looking at a plus-10 grand machine to get it. And theme, is it a theme that – is Princess Bride a theme that people love, like universally love and praise? I think people respect the movie, but do they respect the movie to the point where they want to pay over $10,000 for it in their basement? No. Maybe. Maybe is the right answer. But I would say if you're a P3 owner or if you're really heavily debating it, like, this may be the thing that pushes you over the edge. But if you currently own P3, you've got to be ecstatic. Like, the game looks – it's a great theme. It's very, very well done.
    52:19
    So I played it. It felt a lot more approachable than Weird Al. Yes. That's what I call it. It felt like one of the most approachable E3 games that they put out. I will completely agree with that. Weird Al, I've enjoyed Weird Al, but the complexity of the upper module, it's kind of like, wait, where are these shots going and what's going on? It's just for anybody to just step up and play, there's a lot more confusion there while this just made sense.
    52:43
    And so I really enjoyed it. I would put my top two P3 modules at Final Resistance and Princess Bride. Those were the ones that were at MGC? Yeah. They're great games. And I think that now all of a sudden you look at it as like a combo. Do I want to pay, I think it's what, 10-something? I don't know exactly the price. But if I want to get in on the system plus a module and then add another, I think it's three grand for the other module, am I prepared to drop $15,000 for those two games? I don't know You're getting two games for the price of one That's valid And it only takes up the space of one That's true You're getting into some deep meta stuff right now You're talking about a smaller pinball company That most of the people In the pinball industry or enthusiasts Know about and we already know That they don't want to spend more than $10,000 On a machine The fear of like Not getting their money back That's the tough part Hopefully they get it figured out. That's what I was going to say. I've seen multiple posts recently on Pinsider Facebook where when you get out of your P3, you have to sell all of it. So you're selling, you know, now all of a sudden you're not selling a P3 at $8,000. You're selling a P3 plus the four modules you've bought. You know, you may be selling $18,000 worth of stuff, but you're trying to market at $12,000 or $13,000 just to move it. But that's still $13,000. So here would be my recommendation. Sell what you can to the person who's buying it. Sell the other modules for a discount to somebody else.
    54:21
    If they don't already have it, you're right. But there's other people coming into the market. True. It's just the tough part is they have to have a P3 already. You already have to be an adopter because there's not too many people that are just going to buy the module on its own. Well, we already have to have electricity. Right. And at the same time, too, it's just it's very difficult because I've tried to conceptualize this to brand new people into pinball that just come down to the basement or to my house and ask about it. I have a hard time conceptualizing what that product is for them to understand that they can remove the large portion or if not the whole entire play field module up there, put it back down. And it just to them, it sounds like a lot of work. So it's like it's very difficult to to get that through to people. And obviously, that's a challenge that they've had to face down there. But I would have to think that they're doing halfway decent, considering that they've been in business now for, what, a decade or so and still putting out games. So I don't know. I'm impressed. I think the company is it seems like the company is doing well. I know they're sending out about like almost these upgrade kits to a lot of their their owners. I just I mean they heading in the right direction but I still I mean maybe one day maybe by episode 75 or 100 one of us will finally have bought a P3 because we like okay it just makes sense at this point Here a theme that I love Red Hot Chili Peppers comes out on a P3 and Travis can say no and then all of a sudden he owns multiple modules I would be, yeah, I would be absolutely sure. Trade with your friends.
    55:59
    Yeah. Well, I've heard about that. I've heard Buffalo. Buffalo, like I know Kevin owns one, but they have a few friends in the area that also own them, so they have different modules, so they just swap modules. Yeah. I mean, you can only have one module in your game at a time. Oh, perfect. So you two bozos are volunteering to get a P3 along with me so we can just trade. There we go. Over and over again, right? Okay, Tom's in. There you go, Joel. I mean, the distance is a little far, but. You just needed one. We're on the Midwest. It's driving distance. So, okay. So, well done. Well done on that. I think Princess Bride is. Thank you. I've heard nothing, but I wasn't for you. Shit, Tom. I thought he was saying well done to you and I for that segment. Yeah, I did too. Tom, you're doing a great job. Keep going. Thanks, Joel. Appreciate it. What else we got? Labyrinth Talk. Okay, I'm going to let Tom talk here. Actually, we'll just start with this. Here we go. Let's – here we go.
    56:49
    Tom Talk. He's got something to say. Tom Talk. He's got something to say. Tom Talk. I guess not.
    57:01
    It's true. Okay, Travis, go make a green tea or something. You know, we don't need you. Tom, you played Texas Chainsaw Massacre at MGC, and you liked it. So I'm going to shut up. I actually really enjoyed playing that game.
    57:18
    And it is a theme that is not up my alley, let's put it that way. But I thought the shots and the layout was really cool.
    57:32
    I enjoyed the rules. I don't think I got, like, super deep into the game. but I think anybody getting a Texas Chainsaw Massacre is going to really enjoy it. If you like that theme, the layout and the rules are done really well and you will definitely enjoy it. So do you have one on order? No, I don't like the theme. I'm not going to put that in my house.
    58:02
    And your wife doesn't want one, right? Just making sure it's not a game that has everything she wanted. I would assume if it even, like, came in the doorway, she'd be like, get that off out of here.
    58:14
    Did you play Looney Tunes? I did. Not quite as much, though. I only played a game on it. Okay, so layouts and everything is the same, but different views, different thoughts on Looney Tunes? It's a completely different game. I mean, even though the layout is the same, you know, it is completely different rule set. You know, they have different teams on the game, so, you know, different programmers.
    58:45
    And I believe the inserts are different, like even a different layout. Yep. So, but, no, I went to that game more than any other of the new games at the show. At Midwest Gaming Classic. And you had a very strong statement before we started recording. What did I say? I can't remember. I'm old. It said, when do we replace Travis with somebody better? I think that was the thing. I did not say that. I thought Travis and I were talking about you. No, no, no. You said game of the show. You said game of the show was what?
    59:27
    Well, for me, Texas Chainsaw Massacre. Yeah. I thought it was the best new game that I, you know, outside of, you know, Jaws, which I've already played Elton John and Pulp Fiction. Yeah. Travis, do you have any questions for Tom?
    59:50
    Tom's talking really well. Thank you. I'm very proud of him. I tried. That was a little thing. Nice job, Tom. Thanks.
    60:07
    That just makes me happy. Thanks. Yeah, so Travis and I, we played both. We played both at Texas, and we actually had Bug. We had Bug there, and he kind of explained the game while we played it, which was really, really neat. And I will say I think it's probably one of the best, if not the best, shooting spooky game that they've made. I agree with that. The layout is fun and unique. I was impressed by the code, though, on Texas Chainsaw Massacre. And the reason being there was a mode that Travis got to where it's like I think he had completed all the – Is Jerry the right one? I don't know. He completed all the major modes of one character, and he got to, like, this little mini wizard mode. Oh, you're talking about the blood mode? Yeah. Yeah, yeah. This mode I just thought was brilliant. But it's the – you have to shoot a bunch of shots, and then he hits a scoop or he hits something, and then the whole – all the inserts on the game turn red. So apparently the play field is filled up with blood. So what that means is every switch that's red counts. but the more you do it because you're draining the blood out of the victim the the shots slowly turn white as they move closer and closer to the flipper so now all of a sudden your back shots don't count anymore they're worthless so you are adjusting all the way to the point where only the slings are lit so imagine just using your flippers to try to hit your slings and to watch travis play this and like understand how the the mode is changing based on that i just thought that was really clever. So that was just one, and to see how jazzed and pumped up Bug was to explain it, I think the overall theme integration of that game is really impressive.
    61:56
    Yeah, Travis, what did you think? You played it. You were playing it really well. Yeah, so I would put it this way. Going to TPF, again, not a huge ECM fan, Texas Chainsaw Massacre, Looney Tunes I did grow up on, so I was like, okay, that's the one I'm going to gravitate towards. I found myself, though, enjoying my time a lot more on Texas Chainsaw Massacre. That's what I did. Yeah, I was shocked by that, too. And it wasn't for – I don't know why that is exactly. I do know in terms of Looney Tunes, I don't know. Maybe it's just the presentation, the sound package, the rules on it. It wasn't something that I was really drawn to personally. Texas Chainsaw Massacre just felt like it had a little bit more interesting things or ideas behind it in terms of what the theme is, how it's integrated, how the rules are, so on and so forth. So those are the parts of it that I could really appreciate. The layout is very interesting because it was challenging, but then at the same time, it was like there was parts of it that was really fun to do, then some parts of it that was kind of frustrating. And I don't know if that's because of the copy, the particular copy. And so I want to play it more and just play different versions of it and find out. But just to give an example of this, the upper left ramp, I found myself rattling that a lot more than what I would want to. Right. But the left ramp was just fine. The upper right ramp is fine. The right ramp is fine. So there was certain shots that were that worked really well. So outside of that, I think I had some issues with the upper left flipper that's kind of hidden behind the left ramp in a way. And I figured this out by playing, I think it was Looney Tunes with one of my sons, that he and a couple other people that were basically around like 5'4", 5'5", they didn't even realize there was a flipper there the whole entire time. So I'm curious to see how. Because they didn't see it. Right. And yeah, I bent down. And, yeah, it's one of those things that until you know it's there, you know, and it makes sense because you see a lot of people play games with an upper flipper that's in plain view, but they never use it because they don't think about it, you know. So I've seen that plenty of times as well. But something like that, I even found myself, and I'm just a little over six foot, I found myself having a hard time really timing that shot overall. But once you do figure it out, it does whip around there pretty cool. And, you know, the figure eight that it does is pretty neat. And outside of that, I think my only other complaint that I might have is maybe the left orbit return. It's just it's really blocked off when the ball comes back to that spinner because you have the wire form that's right above it. You have, I guess, just that big mech that's there at the side that's like the meat grinder. Yeah, yeah. That kind of partially hangs over it. So just depending on how tall you are, again, mileage may vary. But these are just like layout gripes with that. Overall, I would say that this is probably the most fun spooky I've played of anything. And I thoroughly enjoyed Rick and Morty, what it was. And I enjoy TNA. But in terms of just something that's just radically different than what's out there from anyone else, it's just, yeah. They took a chance on just a pure horror theme that just leans completely into it. It is unapologetic. It's gross. Yeah, they go all the way. So I can respect that. They're leaning into exactly what they want to do, and it didn't seem like that they cut any corners with that. So it's not a game that I would bring into my house, just because I do have young kids and everything. But I would think, again, if I was a – How did your kids like the game?
    65:50
    So it's funny. I have two teenage boys that were there, and they gravitate it more towards Looney Tunes more than anything. And they don't even watch cartoons. So I haven't asked them why that is or whatever, but they went back to play it several times. So I think it might have just been the whole thing that just seeing a guy with a chainsaw spin around, they were just like, we just don't want to see that. But no, overall, they had fun with the game. And so that's the most important thing. If a kid can have fun with the Looney Tunes layout, then that means they're probably going to go pretty good ways with that. And I think it's just, yeah, it's an interesting layout. I still find it very fascinating that they're doing the two different themes with it, which I think can work, but it also puts us in a unique spot to where we are judging two pretty similar games to each other. And I think in this case, it was almost as if Texas Chainsaw was just clearly a superior game.
    66:53
    And I was not expecting that. For me, it just felt like that to me. I think from a code standpoint, Texas Chainsaw Massacre seems like there's a lot more there at the moment. I don't know what percent. I don't know code numbers. It just seems like. And talking to Bug, there was a point where Texas Chainsaw Massacre did crash. It didn't crash, but like. We locked it up. We locked it up a little bit. That's okay. I think Ben Heck has put a ton into the game. But a lot of it still needs finessed, tweaked, all that stuff. While Looney Tunes may not have as much in the game at the moment, but it did seem, I don't know. I just think Texas Chainsaw Massacre is further along than Looney Tunes. Looney Tunes playing it, yeah, it just felt more accessible. All the modes, like there's no timers in any of the modes right now. So it's just survive and hit the shots and experience the game. So I just think it's, I mean, maybe that'll always be that way. but I could understand why novice players or kids or even maybe average players might be drawn more towards Looney Tunes because it's a lot more accessible in that way. My one gripe with both of them, and I know, Travis, you've already made mention of it could be the model, it could be that particular unit, or it could be expo power, things feeling underpowered.
    68:15
    The hook multiball, the hook lock mech, it's the mech in the back of both of the games. both of them do it in a slightly different way but both of them you have to hit the captive ball so I think it's in Texas Chainsaw Massacre you like hit the captive ball and you can lock a ball and you have to hit the captive ball and you lock a ball while Looney Tunes you have to hit the captive ball I think it's like four or five times and once you've done that then you can lock all three balls I could not ever experience that mech and it and it wasn't and it was because of the captive ball. There was, I've played a lot of games that have captive balls. Some of them you have to drill. You know, I know even like on Avengers, an Avengers Pro, you can barely graze that captive ball and the ball moves just barely and it'll register as a hit. While like on a premium, you have to nail the thing because it's got to move way further back to register a hit. This, the way that the ball, it's not flat. It's like, it's almost like it's pushing the other ball up and there were times where I was drilling it like head-on just bang and it didn't register a hit and I don't know if that's a mechanical issue a code issue whatever it was but I found myself getting to the point where it's like that's all I'm trying to do and so I'm spending three balls the whole game just bashing or trying to bash a capped ball and to feel like it wasn't registering or or you didn't hit it clean enough it's just that's the one area of the game the one little mech that I hope they can address or tweak in a way.
    69:45
    Because, yeah, when you feel like there's a mechanical roadblock to experience something in the game, especially something as critical as a multiball. But I've seen Bug stream the game multiple times, and he obviously knows the layout. He knows how to hit it. He can flow, boom, boom, boom. You can combo so many shots. So for people that get these in their house and learn the game, they're going to know where the upper flipper is. They're going to know how to shoot it. So if you're a huge Looney Tunes fan and a huge Texas Chainsaw fan, I think you guys are going to enjoy the game. But those are my only complaints. I think there's still a ways to go with the code and the captive ball. I would say if you're on the fence between either one, I would personally, and you can get either one into your house, I would go with Texas Chainsaw Massacre. And I say that as a Looney Tunes fan. It just felt like the more complete package at this point. And a lot of stuff made sense, too, when Leatherface started spinning around in circles. Like, I got that. When Taz started spinning around, I was just like, I wanted to poke him, tell him to go faster.
    70:44
    He's looking for his keys. He's like, where are they? Where are they? He's not, yeah. He's gotten old, too. He's slowed down with age, obviously. It's what it is. But still good. I mean, just to review, like, we all loved Elton John. We all loved or really enjoyed Labyrinth. We've all really enjoyed those games. Like, it wasn't a clear-cut stinker or anything. I mean, it just Jaws was – I'll be up front. I enjoyed Texas Chainsaw Massacre more than Labyrinth, personally. Okay. And so does Tom. Just from the shot's perspective and from what it was. It's like anything else. If we look at pinball through the prism of wanting to have fun, you can find fun. Oh, yeah. And if we approach it from the standpoint, well, we're going to be grumpy and just pick it apart, yeah, we could do that too. We could do that to anything. But overall, from a fun standpoint, I did find myself going back and playing Texas Chainsaw Massacre a couple of times during the weekend. So I can't say the same for several other games. Yeah, let's find some fun, Travis. Let's find some fun in the next game, which is Barry O's Barbecue Challenge.
    71:48
    Where was the fun? Did you find the fun? I played it five times. Five times. I did play it five times because I wanted to give the game an honest chance. It's like I made my decision when I went to TPF, all the games, I was going to give them an honest shot, right? So the struggle with Barbecue Challenge for me personally, whenever I was playing it, the first couple of copies I played, the ball would not get up all the way to the left ramp. I was having pure PTSD of Raza back at Houston Expo in 2019. I remember missing that ramp or not completing that ramp 40 plus times. And I was just transferred all the way back there again when I was playing my first barbecue challenge game. And the flippers just felt underpowered. So I went ahead. I waited in line for the one next to it. I wanted to try a different copy. The same thing happened again. I was like, oh, crap. What is going on? And so I ended up not playing for the rest of the day. But I went back and I found another copy elsewhere.
    72:55
    And unfortunately, this one, the flippers weren't aligned. But you could make a ramp, though. Yeah. I got to experience that. But, yeah, it's just, I don't know. I talked to several people that actually really, really enjoyed the game. Thoroughly enjoyed. But these are players that they're not new to pinball. They've been in pinball for over a decade. they're into all the weird stuff that you could think of, right? All the weird 70s and 80s layouts and games. That's where their bread and butter's at. So this game spoke to them because it's kind of like, like we talked about before, it's almost like a space shuttle, a modern space shuttle game with the way the locks are and releasing and everything. So a lot of them appreciated that. Now, the people that I talk to that are newer to pinball and they fall under like two, three years or got into it during COVID, that they were not responding well to this game at all for various reasons. And number one overwhelming reason was the theme. Like none of them could understand the theme. They were all vegetarian, right? Yeah.
    74:02
    So from a game play standpoint, I really did like the locks. That I enjoyed. Yes. I like the idea of locking a ball immediately and then doing something to bring it back out. Like I like those old school callbacks. I wasn't a fan of the ramps in terms of the way that they were implemented with the game. With the spinners, where they were, I was finding myself, I could not loop the ramps. Like, it would just, if I was going to make a ramp, it would just barely make it up there. And a large part of that was just getting caught up in the spinner. And even if I got on a copy to where I could loop the left ramp over and over again, after maybe three ramps in a row, it would start to lose its power. So, I don't know. I still want to give the game a shot. but there just there wasn't enough there to really really pull me in and I was left wondering I told you guys this I think I told you this Joel when we were down there I know I talked about this on our chat but I just couldn't help but think while I was playing this I just couldn't imagine what would have happened if this game was a Buc-ee's or something like that if that was the theme right if they wanted to get it to different places and get it out there outside of the pinball industry. I just feel like there's just so many other options they could go to besides McDonald's. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, there is a Domino's 10 out there. I mean, it can brand it, brand it something. Well, I can. Yeah, I can tell you straight up, like even like we we had Jetsons that came out a few years ago and I can tell you straight up every single one sold. So it's just like you can get these games to the right people. Yeah, that's your goal. But I just don't know who this goes to. That's the tough part. How do you get somebody this day and age in 2024 to pay attention to this game on location? How do you convince somebody to bring this in to their house when they have Looney Tunes, Labyrinth, Exos Chainsaw Massacre, Jaws, Pulp Fiction?
    75:59
    I mean, and what else is there? There's all this other Princess Bride. There's all these other games out there. So it's just kind of like, I don't know. It's just tough.
    76:09
    Tom, have you got a chance to play it? Barbecue Challenge? Yeah. Did you accept the challenge? I played maybe two games on it at MDC. Could you hit the ramps? Yeah, I could hit the ramps. I had a decent game going on at my first game.
    76:30
    Yeah, I mean, I kind of laughed at, you know, they're slicing brisket and stuff, and I was just like, okay. um somebody was talking about how they like i might have been on on tps um with squirting the barbecue sauce yeah um but uh i i mean i thought the game shot well it's just not i i guess i just don't get the whole theme and concept of it you know i i yeah to me i'm wondering, you know, like there's characters on the play field. It looks like, like, are they somehow involved in this? You know, I, I don't know. The brisket brothers, burn in bros or something. It very much feels like a theme that should have came out 25, 30 years ago. That way we don't need an LCD to explain it. It's just like diner, you know, you can accept what diner is. Or imagine if frontier came out today, you needed an LCD to just show it. Right, you just showed the crickets and like... Yeah, some rugged mountain dude just walking along. It's just, yeah. You know, with the closed up and he comes in. Right. So it's not like the theme is beyond pinball at all. It's just that, is that a theme that resonates in 2024? And using it on a modern pinball machine with the LCD screen and the LEDs and all that. That's the part that was just a little jarring. because we haven't seen that very often. I can't think of any other game, really, in recent memory that just took just a bizarre left-field theme that feels like it's straight out of the 80s or early 90s. Right.
    78:19
    TNA is the only thing I can think of of just a it's out there theme, this futuristic. Well, we know American does original themes, right? I mean, except for, you know, maybe Hot Wheels, but like Hot Wheels is my favorite game of theirs. Okay. So I don't know. Yeah, I played the heck out of it. And the reason I played the heck out of it is because there was like no line. There was never a line for that. At least maybe it would be like a one-person deep line. So if I'm walking around and I'm like, okay, I'm going to be here for three days. I want to make sure I can play the games that I don't normally get to play. I'm trying to put time in on, you know, the games I haven't streamed, the new stuff.
    79:04
    Barbecue Challenge, I played it multiple, multiple times, and I struggled to hit the ramps. And then to add insult to injury, there's spinners on the ramps. So it's like I can't even complete the ramp. So I'm not getting any spins. You know, there's no power up there where the spinner is. It's just dead. So, you know, I don't know if that's you, if it was Expo power. I don't know if you can turn up the flippers, maybe get some precision flippers. I don't know. I didn't find that at Midwest Gaming Classic. I felt like I could hit the ramps. Well, hopefully that's the case because the rest of it, the pop bumpers were cool. They did some cool stuff with the lights and the pop bumpers. I did like the locks a lot. I did like the locks and we could lock the ball. Choose when you start your multi-ball. You can bash the balls when they're in the lock to do some stuff. I also really like the LCD screen in the play field. it's so helpful to know what's going on by not having to look all the way up so there are some things that I find redeemable or some things that I did like about the game but no, it's not a game I'd own I know people in the hobby that are used to buying everything to try it out, but that's asking a little too much to buy a barbecue game to put in their basement especially if they only plan on having it for a few months.
    80:26
    So it's just, I don't know. Honestly, I don't know where I'm going to see it ever. I think Steve Bowden, listening to him on the Loser Kid Pinball Podcast, explained the rules. He's done some really unique and creative stuff. So I think from a tournament standpoint, that game could probably be pretty awesome. But who's going to, I mean, let's district 82 gets one. I don't know many bars like Lumberjack Challenge. Eric doesn't buy a lot of the newer games. He usually buys them used.
    81:02
    It's going to be tough for locations to adopt this. I think if you do see it out, you're going to see it at pinball co-ops or something like that, like people that just thoroughly enjoy off-the-wall themes and off-the-wall games. I think that's really who I would speak to. Because honestly, like if you think about this from a business standpoint, if you are running a route and you have dolls, the Foo Fighters, something like that, like how much money is Barbecue Challenge really going to make long term? Yeah. After you get over that initial one to two week honeymoon. That's the scary part about it. Yeah, especially when there's so many other pins available right now in similar price ranges with really big themes.
    81:46
    Yeah, we can talk about that, but just to wrap up Texas, I think that was all the new games. Turner Pinball was there. I did play Ninja Eclipse.
    81:59
    The Cabinet, I think they've made a good step in the right direction. The Cabinet now looks like a pinball machine. It acts like a pinball machine. it still is a unlicensed theme I think the art is probably the best part of the game I think the art is actually really impressive there were people I talked to a guy who's a fan of the show that he's going to buy one he's in he's bought a lot of games and he's like I want to support him I want to give it a shot the talking to one of the guys there I mean they've done a lot with the rules it's just to me it always comes back to for that same amount of money that I could be handing Turner pinball there's a lot of other really good games that are new and available that I would prefer over Ninja Eclipse. It was at MGC. Did you play it, Tom? Did you have a chance to play? I did. I actually played it the last two minutes of the show. Okay.
    82:51
    And then the power went out because the show was off. But I was able to start the multi-ball. I thought the layout was fine, honestly.
    83:05
    I thought the scoop thing was a little different. The right scoop ejects into the left scoop. Into the left scoop. And then it ejects it off the play field. I guess it's a cool effect, but I was just like, you know, like it's a little different.
    83:22
    But, I mean, you know, for the couple minutes I played, it was enjoyable, I guess. Yeah. I think I would just say just real short about Turner Pinball. They came out they obviously had some to be associated with the deep root stuff You know they tried to separate themselves from that Their initial Whitewood that we played at TPF last year was not great And then they tried to revolutionize the cabinet and tried to do some crazy stuff at Expo last year. And it was like, don't do this. But I will say props to them for listening. They've listened to feedback. They've improved all the areas that people complained about. The cabinet was solid. So it's like as a company, good. I'm glad you're heading in the right direction. You know, I hope they sell. I hope they sell enough of these to be profitable for them and they can learn from all this and move on to the next. You know, maybe they can get a theme, a licensed theme or something, and do even better with the second one. But I just – that's one of those things where it's kind of a good on them, good on them for listening and heading in the right direction.
    84:33
    Other games we played, there was a lot of homebrew games. So shout out to Glenn. We played Jaws. I know him and his buddies, not Jaws. Wow, Saw. Close. We played Saw.
    84:46
    That was a whirlwind re-theme to the Saw movies, and it was very well done. Glenn did all the audio. We played a song of his at the end of last episode. That was really cool to play. There's a Friday the 13th game there that was really cool to play. Able Beyond was there. There's some of the homebrew games have really gotten impressive with how polished they are and how really they seem like a legitimate, you know, game. So that was a lot of fun. But I would say my overall experience, Texas Pinball Festival was awesome.
    85:24
    It was really, really cool playing all the games, talking to different manufacturers, talking to the fans that were there. I will gladly go again next year and even hanging out with Travis is nice so Tom are you going to commit next year? We missed Tom I don't know it all depends I mean the hard thing is spring break yes spring break and this year all my kids will have a different week of spring break what about next year? That's next year. Yeah. Oh, you're calling this year next year already? Yes. Is that what you're saying? Not last year. I'm with you. Spring break this year is over, so now I'm just saying. Yeah, sorry it happened. Yes. So, idea, right? Uh-oh. How about you just forget about them and just come down anyway?
    86:18
    I do enjoy being married to my wife, so I... He doesn't love the kids. Another idea. And she does let me do other things, I guess. I mean, Monica's going to be there. I'll bring my wife. You'll have plenty to do. I can see. She might find a pinball machine that she really wants. Yeah, I'm sure that'll be the case. What pinball machine do you think your wife would want? Like, what one pinball machine?
    86:45
    I don't know. There's got to be a theme out there. Ben Affleck? I don't know. The Ben Affleck, the pinball machine. I have no idea I do want to talk about Midwest Gaming Classic a little bit I've never been so you know it's definitely not a pinball show but it has a lot of pinball involved with it but it's an all encompassing game show so if there's anything gaming you can think of it'll be at that show you're talking video games, arcade games games, board games. There's actually wrestling. They have a wrestling ring in the vendor hall. Nice. And they put on shows.
    87:37
    There's just a lot going on. And I have never seen so many people at a show, at any show, than I have this one. as far as like a pinball show or an arcade show. I mean, it was pretty amazing. I was helping Rachel Risto put on the tournament this year, and she did it last year too, but she put on the tournament for Midwest Gaming Classic, and I was helping out.
    88:14
    And it was amazing to me how many people came up and asked if they could play the pinball machines. And I'm like, well, you know, there's like over like 200 in the gaming hall. And they were like, there's a gaming hall? Oh, wow. I mean, that's just how big this show is.
    88:37
    And so, of course, I pointed them in the right direction. But it was just amazing to me how many people were there. I must have had 100 people come up to me while I was working the desk. That's awesome. I've always, in my mind, thought of MGC being a smaller pinball show, just like Louisville Arcade Expo, Pinsonetti, Clee Pin. I just thought it was one of those, but I never actually thought that. No. The pinball part of it is a very small part of a very large show. I mean, all the manufacturers were there or at least represented. So, you know, Marco had the big Stern booth. Tilt Amusements was there with their – they kind of had a Stern booth or they did have a Stern booth.
    89:33
    Spooky was there. American Pinball was there, obviously. and then Turner Pinball, P3, and then, you know, Kingpin, who's the big Wisconsin distributor, you know, had a bunch of stuff, had Pulp Fiction's there. I mean, it's an amazing show. The coolest thing he had, Kingpin had from Raw Thrills a Godzilla VR. Have you ever seen that? Oh, wow, no. There was a huge line to go play that. It was pretty awesome. But the thing, I don't know how all shows operate, but one of the coolest things about Midwest Gaming Classic is if you work the show as a volunteer or you're a vendor, they open up the hall at 8 o'clock on Saturday to just those people. Oh nice. Yeah so like there's less crowds and you just get to enjoy the stuff so but I played that Godzilla VR and it's pretty amazing. That's awesome. Well good. Now we can get back to pinball. No I clearly I did this at the wrong time. well done no that's actually really cool that's a solid endorsement I gotta give my five minutes on this podcast well we got a few minutes left here one thing we should probably talk about I don't have it in our notes but there was a new game announced it's called ABBA we got multiple emails apparently we've all been saying it wrong I kept saying ABBA it's ABBA like abacus I got emails from two Europeans and one Australian saying that we did it wrong so ABBA was announced Tom you have one right? you're getting one on order?
    91:53
    no Travis you buying one? no No, no. It'll sell just fine, though. Oh, yeah. Like, yeah, it's going to do the same thing Queen did. The one thing I've noticed completely that somehow a big portion of people on Pennside and on Facebook don't realize there's this other continent called Europe that plays pinball also. Amazing. I was there, too, and so were you.
    92:23
    Yeah. It's just like they always forget about that. They see these themes and they're just like, oh, never sell. Or, you know, I don't understand this, I don't understand that. But it's, you know, these themes are huge over there. And they sell very well over there. There's a reason why these games keep coming out. You know, somebody's buying them. What's the, I don't have the page pulled up because I'm not a professional podcaster. But what, pricing, the cheapest version of ABBA, because ABBA, ABBA. I think you said it wrong. ABBA, ABBA. The cheapest version of ABBA. No. Abacus. What's an abacus? Why are we saying that? Of course you don't know what that is. You don't know what an abacus is? It deals with math.
    93:05
    What? It's only $1,000 on flipping out pinball, Joel. It deals with math? Is that the thing you play with when you go to the dentist's office? Yeah, yeah. When you're like 10? Yeah, Tom probably has 15 of them. Tom has like 10 of those out there. No, I'm just trying to, you know, we talked a lot about Elton John earlier. And, like, I would put ABBA in the same realm as Elton John. Like, it's a theme. A lot of people know ABBA songs, but is it something that's very loud? Is it something that they want in their house? But if pricing is similar to Elton John, it's going to be. Joel. Yeah. You asked the question. I'm ready for the answer. The Voyage Edition is limited to 300 units, and it is $10,995 plus shipping. So it's going to be comparable.
    93:53
    I'm flipping out pinball. Okay. So we're close to an Elton John. I just feel like all, you know, we've said Elton John shoots well, the music is great, the animation is great, everything is great. But people aren't buying them because it's $12,000, and it's a theme they know, but they're not loving. I feel like ABBA falls in the exact same category. Hey, if this was rushed, I would be all in on it, okay? Okay. If you are an ABBA fan, I think they've done it well. The art, the sound, there's 16 songs. The layout, I was looking at it at Flippin' Out with Friends the other night, and the layout looks interesting. My one complaint is the upper flipper. There's only a handful of shots that utilize the upper flipper, and it looks like there's an inner loop, but I don't think it actually loops. I think it does the Led Zeppelin thing. I think it goes up and hits a stand-up and then drops down in the pops. And the fact that that's not a loop, that's a bummer. That's a bummer to me. Don't you have to, like, gather their souls or something like that?
    94:54
    I don't know. There's something strange going on with the rules, Joel. Zach is trying to get one. Apparently they're going to be manufactured in Mary. Zach is going to try to get one so I can stream it So I might be playing the heck out of it And I'm okay with that So If you're an ABBA fan You're probably excited with what you're seeing But As a non-ABBA Person this doesn't I mean it's like man Is that legit What's happening in this game You collect souls Yeah Yeah, you have to. It says here. I know nothing about this band or anything. Is this like the lore?
    95:39
    I don't know. Okay, there's three. Sorry, Tom, go ahead. There's three main what? Creating their avatars requires you to gather three main elements, the band members' instruments, outfits, and their souls.
    95:55
    In that order. We can get away with you in the outfit, but yeah. You got to get their souls. I mean, they leaned in. If you look at the art package, it is trippy. I mean, it just seems like they're leaning into this being ridiculous. Is that part of the lore, though, of the band? The Avatar? I don't know. Avatar and collecting soul. Like, is this like an Eddie thing like it was for Iron Maiden? I think so. Like, they're trying to, you know, instead of just make it a fan game, they're making it a... If you are a diehard ABBA fan as a listener, and there's lore here that we need to learn, please email us at tripledrain at gmail.com with links. We'll cover it on the next episode so that the entire listener population can be educated on ABBA. I got us covered. Hang on. I'm going to chat GPT right now. You're going to Google it. I mean, they're talking to your AI friend. I mean, they got all their popular songs, Dancing Queen, Waterloo, SOS. Yeah.
    97:04
    Take a Chance on Me, Mamma Mia, Knowing You. She went over these songs with me. I have no idea what any of these songs are. It's not rap. Travis, get out a little bit, will you?
    97:19
    Go touch some grass, okay? I just, okay, I think the cops might accidentally show up to my house, according to what chat GPT just threw back at me. So I asked him, okay, is it ABBA or ABBA? Let's get this straight. It's ABBA. Okay. A-B-B-A, right? Abacus. You don't know what it is. Abacus. Okay. So I said, does ABBA have collecting souls as part of their theme or whatever, right? And chat GPT, which is never wrong, tells me that it seems like you might be referring to something metaphorical or symbolic related to ABBA.
    98:03
    That's the literal idea of collecting souls. Or Avatar. I don't know. They're famous for their catchy pop music and have captivated audiences worldwide with their songs. Captivated. So what does collecting souls have to do with that? It's a complete avatar, you know? Do we have to spell it out for you? Is this like the Foo Bot?
    98:25
    I don't know, Travis. I don't know. I'm sorry. I've got so many questions. I know we're in the middle of a podcast. These people have to sell their souls to get the license. Joel, you know how this goes, Joel. You've got to get the outfit, too. I'm so lost. You know how this goes, Joel. If Tom says something that breaks my brain, I need answers, and we go down this rabbit hole that lasts an hour. Now I'm just very confused. John, you have to collect outfits. That makes sense, though. That's on theme, right? Well, they've had some outfits. Yeah, there's a lot of white one jumpsuits. It's going to be great. I don't know. It's coming out. Unfortunately, the video that's out there right now is really poor. There's very little video gameplay. Hopefully somebody. That's the best reveal of all time. I don't know what you're talking about. Hopefully somebody streams it so we can actually have a better understanding of what's going on in the game sooner than later. So it's kind of a wait and see situation on that, but it's out. So if you're, yeah, if you're a, if you're an ABBA fan, you know. I think it could be a good game. Yeah. It has, it has a, it has a shot. The layout.
    99:32
    The layout doesn't look terrible. The art is entertaining. Yeah. We'll have to see. There's a disco ball in it, Joel. Sure is. Yeah.
    99:43
    What do we got? Other things to mention real quick. I'll keep it short, but Zach has let me borrow a Star Wars premium. And all I can say is now that I've had it, my initial impression of Star Wars every time I've played it on location is the game sucks. And the reason I say that is because it's brutal. It's very light. You plunge, it hits the targets, it's out. You plunge, it's out. It's like I just feel like I could ever play the game, and it's like Dwight did all the code. I know there's a ton of really good code here, but I can't experience any of it. He can't help that. Because the layout was brutal. So now that I've had it in my collection. I mean, he could code in a ball save. So now that I've had it in my collection, like the Tatooine shot on the far right, it's a scoop. By default, that could kick it out and just straight down the middle. But now there's a ball save, so I turn that on. That's not going to be on the location. You know, there's little things like that that I helped myself. I made the game a little more accessible. This game's so easy. I could play forever. Still not easy. There are definitely the horseshoe shot can be brutal. The Death Star shot, you have to hit it clean because of the up ramp. And then what sucks is if you get into the Death Star mode, it dribbles the ball back down. But I have problems where that goes straight down the middle, so you've got to be ready for it. Like, it keeps you on your toes. so with all that said I actually now really enjoy the game I actually have found a huge appreciation for the game mainly because of the Dwight Code now that I can play it and experience it more there is a ton to do in that game I love that you can tackle it from different people you can go down completely different paths completely different directions there's a ton to do I think I've completed almost everything in the game not all in one game but it is something where it's like okay, now that I see that I can complete this, I can complete that, boom, boom, boom, boom, boom, boom, boom, like in a perfect world you put it all together, you're going to beat it. Now, if you actually look like Star Wars pinball, Travis on his old channel actually has a stream where you've beat the game. It's on YouTube, and it shows Travis doing it. I don't remember what it was under, Travis, but you streamed the game. You beat it. What channel is that? Is it Marv Loco? Marv Loco, yeah. I haven't posted on there in a couple of years, though. Yeah. But I don't know. I would just say I get that Star Wars is arguably one of, if not maybe the best license ever. And so the layout and the toys. Sells a lot of units, Joel, from what I hear. It sells really, really well. And I just feel like they could have done more with the layout or the toys or the mechs in the game. Sure. In fact, there's no maggots in the game, you know, and it's Star Wars, the Force. I think that could have been better, but the code, I think Dwight crushed it. Yeah, it still sells units. It still moves units. Yeah, that's fair. Think about this. That game came out in 2017. 17 or 18. I think 2017. And it's still selling. Here we are, 2024, still on the line. Yep. I wish they still did the comic book art.
    102:58
    100%. I mean, I like the regular. I might. I would possibly get a pro with the comic book art if they still sold it. Yeah. But I'm not going to pay like $9,000 or $10,000 just because it was comic book art.
    103:19
    What I will say, pro to premium, the premium gives you the whole hyperspeed mech. It is really hyperloop. Hyperloop? Yeah. Abba. It is very cool. When you get a ball up there and it whips it, it is very cool. But it is a hurry up. And so to hit that, like, it's challenging enough that, like, my brother's only experienced it a handful of times. I don't think my wife would ever be able to hit that shot to experience that. That is sexist. it's because she doesn't play pinball I know it's a it's a lack of skill I'm just we gotta clear that for the listeners yes yes um so it's a huge mech and it's something that's really exciting so for a novice to step up to and be like well how do I do that it's like well good luck is basically the answer um so I could see it if I could see why people own the pro So one thing I don't know, does the Pro have the three different color GI? Do you know? I don't know. Having the red, blue, and white lights, that really adds a ton to the light show. But I mentioned earlier the Death Star that blows up, it happens so rarely that to not have that on the Pro, I don't think you're missing anything.
    104:42
    So I could see it. I could see people wanting to own the Pro. I think the Pro would be a fun game. but unfortunately now there's really not a ton of entertaining mechs that you're going to experience in the, in the pro, but the code, it does the movie justice. There's a ton of sound clips. There's a ton of video clips. It feels like Star Wars. It sounds like Star Wars. Um, and I love the way you can play the game and attack the game. So, um, I know I'm late to the party. This is a David Dennis cold take here. Um, but it's a good game. I actually, I get it. I understand why there are people that own Star Wars that say it'll never leave my collection, and I didn't understand that before because it would just kick my butt. So, yeah, that's my – do you guys agree, disagree? You've owned it. Tom, apparently, will buy it again. I hope they keep making Star Wars for as long as possible. Because it sells. They sell, yeah. Because it's just like we talked about before. The main thing that people in the pinball industry need to realize is that everybody that discovers pinball, all the themes are brand new to them. First time they see it. So they're going to naturally gravitate towards your S tier themes. And Star Wars is definitely that, you know, regardless of what's going on at Disney right now and Mandalorian, Acolytes, Ahsoka, all that. Yeah. Bottom line is the original trilogy. People still respond to that incredibly well. So it's just, yeah, it's just a game that they could, if they can hold onto that license, Just keep pumping it out because people will keep purchasing it. I mean, that's just the reality of it. It's just a great theme. I have an answer to Joel's question. I'm ready. I'm ready for my answer. The Pro Premium and LE all have the tri-color. Oh. So the only difference between the Pro and the Premium is the hyperspeed loop. And the exploding Death Star. Yeah. Okay. I could see it. I could see why you are fine with the Pro. You know what's fantastic about the game also? That was, I don't know how they came up with this decision, but in hindsight, it was an incredibly smart decision. The fact that even that game that's right behind you there, Joel, that's the premium, correct? Correct. Which is Darth Vader, very prominent. Yep. Right? Sith and all that. So they made sure to lean into that. And Boba Fett. Everybody loves Boba Fett. Imagine if that would have been on the LE instead. I don't know if people would have responded as much because Darth Vader is just such an iconic character. Just the fact that they can keep having the opportunity to get that game, the premium version of it, over and over again. So it's just because I remember when that first came out, a lot of people were thinking that the Sith, and I even thought this too, should have been on the LE, something like that. But I'm so glad that they didn't do that, and that's still accessible to people today because you can still choose, like, the pro, right, the trans light, I think is all the hero characters, correct? I'm trying to picture it in my head. So, yeah, it's just, I can't say enough good things about the game. I mean, there's stuff in there I wish was a little bit different. I owned a premium for a few years until I finally, like you mentioned earlier, until I did everything that, you know, there was to do on it, so I needed a break anyways. But, yeah, it's a fantastic game in terms of just seeing the ball whip around and just the sights and the sounds. And if you put a subwoofer on it and you hear the theme music just pop off, I mean, that's a cool moment right there. And if you can destroy the Death Star, very cool moment as well. I did it. I did it on stream, and it was cool. It was a really enjoyable moment. So it was just kind of a surprise. It kind of comes back to, we've said this before, you know, I love location pinball, but you really can't fully experience a game until you get it in your house in a controlled lighting, a controlled sound environment where you're not worried about pumping quarters into it, just play it and learn it. And that's where you can really digest the game. And, and yeah, this was a situation where I had the ability to do that. And my outlook on the game completely changed. So, um, yeah, it's a great game, but well, we are out of time. That was short. That was, I tried, I tried. You're out of time. There's always more to talk about. I'm sensing sarcasm. Um, yes, no, no. Yeah. It's because, uh, you know, the, it's like the improv thing, the and, yes and, yes and. So Travis says, but then he asks a question, and then you agree, and then yes. It's hard to get started off. We should applaud Travis, as I hit my mic,
    109:18
    for not, his camera did not go out. He's learning, guys. For the 50th episode, this is monumental. This is a step in the right direction. Especially how busy he's been. Yeah, there's more stuff to talk about. Hopefully we won't
    109:35
    be as long until we record again. My guess would be Stern hopefully will announce another game by the end of the month, maybe. So hopefully we can record after that announcement. I got a hint there's some games coming. I believe that there's going to be more pinball showing up. More pinball is good pinball. Yeah. So let's plug it up. Tom, plug away, man. Hi, I'm Tom.
    110:00
    Oh, do I hit the top of the box now? I podcast here on Triple Drain with Joel and Travis, but I also stream pinball on Fox City Spinball. So if you care to watch that, follow me on Twitch and YouTube. Perfect. Go for it, Travis. Sweet. So my name is Travis. I do podcasting here on Triple Drain. I'm also on YouTube via the Pinball Company, and I sometimes even show up on Fox City's Pinball whenever he's streaming tournaments when I'm on there. And then occasionally I will heckle Joel whenever he tries to stream as well. Appreciate that. I always appreciate it. Yes, you do.
    110:43
    My name is Joel. Obviously, I do this podcast, and then I stream for Flippin' Out on the Flippin' Out YouTube channel every Wednesday night between chatting streams or game day streams with my brother. Yeah, Joel and Friends or Jared and Joel.
    110:55
    It's a good time. it's a good time. So check us out on YouTube. Uh, feel free to like, and subscribe and comment on all that. Um, yeah, it's a lot of fun. We do a lot of different stuff here on the show and, uh, we have a lot of different opinions, but it's always fun to come together and talk, um, and have a good time. So once again, happy birthday, Travis. Um, congrats on making it to 40 and, um,
    111:17
    yeah, just, I'm looking forward to all the butt stuff that comes with it. Apparently You've got to do, like, colonoscopies and all that.
    111:25
    Okay, well, on that note, Tom, you get the last words. Play more pinball.