Warning, the following episode contains adult language and screaming goats. Listener discretion is advised. The Pinball Network is online. Launching, The Pinball Show. Pinball is a game of skill. For some, it's a passion and a lifestyle. It's time for The Pinball Show. it's pinball with personality welcome back ladies and gentlemen to the pinball show we're in episode 41 and i have my main man back dennis creasel from the eclectic gamers podcast the co-host uh the fortnightly co-host here at the pinball show how's it going dennis it's going well did you enjoy your uh vacation with greg for episode 40 yeah it was a mixed bag though uh i a lot of hard takes people liked it People loved it. They loved hearing Greg back. I'm glad that Greg is back into podcasting in some form, shape, or another. We went long on that intro, but to the listener out there, I wanted to follow up. Greg, if he was jumping back into podcasting and openness and really being transparent as a host, he wanted to at least get some stuff off his chest that he knew was going to continue to brew unless he at least got it out there. So I'm glad Medium allowed him to do that. It's very cathartic of you. Yes. Well, you know me. I'm always ready to help heal people, Dennis. Speaking of healing, we've received quite a bit of feedback regarding some of my quote-unquote antics, maybe. You call them that? With the goats and the singings and the trends and the goats and the singings and the trends. It's almost the Sammy Pinballs. I know. Oh, I missed him. I missed him so. What did you think about the feedback? We got a lot of it. Well, I mean – You always play up to your feedback when it's positive, but – I do, but what's your saying, Zach? Numbers don't lie. So I went ahead and I pulled the podcasting statistics, and I'll have you know that episode 39, the episode where you do not sing, there were no goats, and there was no market trends, has hundreds more downloads than either your most recent episode with Greg Bone, which is newer, so that would be part of that factor, but also more than episode 38. where you were inundating the episode with that nonsense. So I think that you have a few zealots that might express support. And I've never denied that you have some support for your shenanigans, but the numbers don't lie. I think people prefer a much more professional-sounding show overall. You're only reporting the facts here. Okay. To that, I would say that I think your statistics are a bit askew for the entertainment purposes of our listeners, and our listeners don't appreciate that. I don't think there is a significant difference Significance level .05 Of what you're alluding to These hundreds It was hundreds, it was at least I believe 200 I mean you can go and verify it yourself If you wish Zach The numbers are right there for you to load up There's a lot of other outliers, a lot of other factors Confounding variables there is all I'm saying Stretch, it's a stretch But hey the numbers don't lie You may be correct But they like the singing I wanted to give a shout out to a listener by the name of Coop. Coop gave us some feedback that was single-handedly the greatest feedback that I've ever received as a podcaster. I think it was glowing for both of us. He private messaged us. It was finally a time, Dennis, where somebody articulate as well was able to really capture my focus and aim for this show. and I just want to thank that guy. I don't know if you agreed with him as much, but it was great. I mean, he is entitled to his own view. I let him know what my thoughts were. Yeah, he got it. He just got it. And at the very end, he said, I was a road comic for 17 years. This is a very entertaining show. I don't mean to troll you, Dennis, but Pinball Market Trends is a great bit. The goat scream and all the other inside jokes that have grown organically are the differentiators. to elevate what is effectively the exact same conversation that is happening on the two dozen other podcasts. I hope you don't lose that. That was just a subset of this big glowing review. Well, I understand why you love that review. Coop, I love you. Maybe Coop could be your next guest host. Coop, you're my boy! Coop sounds like the name you would expect some old Little League coach that you turn to for advice. Aw, gee, thanks. Is it Coop? call Coop he'll let you know he'll let you know what's what he'll never shoot you wrong he'll never throw you the curveball he's definitely on the Andy Griffith show I would like to have Coop as a co-host I think he and I would get along very well once you bring the heat he might change his mind though road comics are usually well trained in dealing with hecklers so that's a good skill set to have that is very true you don't really heckle on the show but I think the same tools are used to combat your high level of nonsense, kind of when you just double down on not knowing what you're talking about. I agree. Look, I agree. People messaged us about the Croods. That was a fun piece. I did go back and try to watch the Croods, the original, since I hadn't seen it. I got to tell you guys, it's no fucking Croods 2. I got through 20 minutes and I was like, no, this isn't it. This is not it. I want my Croods 2. some people did message me they went to see it oh wow on that horrid recommendation i guess i'm not surprised i mean what else is there to do that's greatness i mean you tried to spin it like it was the godfather part two buddy greatest sequel of all time it was that it was good i'm i was not exaggerating. I don't know if it was other influences, but it was greatness. A visual orgasm, I might add. Speaking of orgasms, before we get into the news, I have to tell you this, Dennis. It was weird for me last week. Even if Greg is my best friend, even if I've done a show with him for three years, a video show, it just wasn't the same. I was pretty sad not seeing you and hearing your voice last week. Well, you hid your tears well during the episode. Well, that was the part that I thought, Zach, you know what? After time of reflection, I felt the same way. I loved not recording. It was great. It was great. Now I'm competing every other week with, hey, at least you don't have to edit after you're done. So I got that going for me, Tony. I do love not having to edit. That is nice. Yeah, after I recorded with Greg, I still, I sat in my chair before I started editing the show, and a single tear came from my left, not my right, my left eye, and it tickled my nose, and it touched my lips, and all I can think of is Dennis. How can you just walk away from me When all I do is watch you leave Cause we share the laughter and the pain Even share the tears You're the only one who really knew me at all Dennis, take a look at me now. Take a look at me now That is justified, listeners, justified, because that was mentioned on Jesse Jay's recent podcast. No, that was mentioned on just another pinball podcast. Yes, so it's fair game. Joel Engelbert, thank you so much for that, Because it was so fitting that I just wish Dennis would just take a look at me now. It's just an empty space. I need you, Dennis. I want you. It's time for TPN Industry News. Loser Kid wins big with Elwynn. Hey everyone, Craig here again, the pinball show's Stern News Correspondent. Well, a sad week for Dennis with no new code updates. However, there was talk of a potential new standard code feature in all new Stern games from none other than the greatest pinball competitor of all time, yes, Keith Elwin. Elwin, who was of course the lead designer for Iron Maiden, Jurassic Park, and most recently, the Avengers Infinity Quest, recently appeared as a guest on the Loser Kid Pinball Podcast, where he teased that we could see more of trophy accomplishments in future pinball titles, or one could only assume future code updates of any Stern title. Like most of us have seen in modern video game consoles like the PlayStation, trophies may start to become more of a staple in Stern's world soon, should they prove to be a popular feature to Stern's Code Matrix. Much like how trophies are currently functioning in the new Avengers Infinity Quest, the collection of trophies in a pinball machine shows the player when they've reached or accomplished certain tasks that become much more specific versus simply high scores which can potentially extend player gameplay and interest for a particular title far beyond becoming the game's grand champion or high score winner. Trophies can be related to any number of specific tasks, from the number of continuous combos, to skill shots, spinner hits, target shots, or any accomplishments the designers wish to deem noteworthy, and most importantly that you might deem noteworthy and want to share with fellow pinheads. Maybe even sharing them online? Hmm. The collection of a certain number of trophies in a game can also potentially unlock specific wizard modes, like we've been seeing again in the Avengers Infinity Quest, where collecting 24 trophies unlocked a wizard mode called Trophy Mania. So in summary, the number of accomplishments or trophies are really only limited by the designer's imagination and the coder's ability to implement them into a specific game. They are a very interesting design or code feature and also are very relevant in today's gaming and digital world. So get ready to collect them, as I believe we'll be seeing more trophies coming soon to a Stern Pinball machine near you. For the Pinball Show, I'm Craig Bobby. Catch you on the flip side. Hi, this is Ken Rudberg with your Jersey Jack update. Well, last week, Zach said that he wants a Jersey Jack pinball banner, and it looks like it might be happening. They're considering adding two different Guns N' Roses 72-inch by 30-inch banners to their merchandise store. Speaking of which, the merchandise store goes live this week. It's sure to contain Jersey Jack hats, shirts, pinball covers, and I'm sure tons of other merchandise, all emblazoned with Not In This Lifetime and the Guns N' Roses logo. This may help tide some of the Guns N' Roses buyers over while the limited editions continue out the door and the collector's editions get ready to be put on the line. One lucky fan found a surprise when they opened up their Guns N' Roses limited edition and found a signed poster inside. Slash signed the 2 foot by 3 foot promotional poster and made one customer extra happy. And on the media front, Jack Guarnieri appeared on, of all places, BBC News. talking about the new Guns N' Roses machine. I thought the interview started off a little rough when she said, quote, it may seem quite old-fashioned, but Jack countered with, quote, this is not your grandfather's pinball machine. Most of the interview talked about COVID and how that is increasing home sales all across the world. I see Jack even played to his audience by inserting a reference to Sir Paul McCartney in the interview. And Jack made a good case for why pinball is not only still relevant, But the JJP is on the vanguard of pinball design. For the Pinball Show, this has been Ken Rudberg. Hey, this is Kaz with an American Pinball update. American Pinball has just announced the hiring of a new director of operations and marketing. This is David Fix. He's worked for both the largest arcade manufacturer in the world and also the fastest growing family entertainment center in North America. David has recently headed up the relaunch of Pinball Expo over the last three years. He's also been an avid collector for over 20 years. When asked about the future of American Pinball, David said, I'm excited to be part of this journey with American Pinball's most exciting gameplay yet to come. Let's hope everybody has a great week and has fun playing pinball. For the Pinball Show, this is Brian Costner. Well, that was great. Not the song, but hearing from the correspondents. It was good. I'm glad those guys are back in the saddle. I even got a message from Dr. Joan, and he was like, I want to submit something, guys, but there is nothing. There is no change. It's nothing. He's cognizant of it. I did want to note that, and obviously not this current one, but when Chris Chandler did the last Deep Root correspondent, I thought he did a really good job. Like, he's putting, like, a Craig Bobby spin, but his own take. He might be better than Craig. I was about to compliment you for the compliment of Chandler, because, Chan-Man, that was phenomenal. That was a really good piece of it. It was really good. I liked it. And you know me, Zach. I do not give compliments easily. I know. I almost felt vicariously through that. I was like, oh, I wonder if he thinks I'm great, too. But no, you're right. You're really good at editing. Except when you don't get the sound levels balanced. Never mind. Take that one back. You don't. You can't even edit. You know that's my... your one weakness, the refusal to learn audacity and using video software to do your audio editing. It's a kryptonite. The editing is that's what I would pride myself most on. But you're doing the editing. I was so close. Everybody does editing. It was right there. I'm telling you this right now, Dennis. If you ever want to make a grown man cry, compliment my editing because that's the one that I put everything into. I'll keep working on that. But then you said he did better than Craig Bobby. Whoa. Whoa, pump the brakes there, crazy. Craig really relies on his intonation to sort of carry everything at this point. Did you not hear his triple hey last week? Hey, hey, hey, everybody. Yeah, I heard it. And it corresponded. You know what's funny? He messaged me. It corresponded with how many code updates there were for Stern that week. Three. Oh, well, that's pretty clever. I do like those subtle ties. I love to see Bobby. There's a lot of Stern Pinball news this week. One of them is from our friends over at the Loser Kid Pinball Podcast. They interviewed, again, designer Keith Elwin. He's like a regular over there. Is that the third time now? He's like a co-host at this point. He must have like an entire closet of Loser Kid swag. This whole wardrobe. It's like on the Simpsons or something, they open it up and all the outfits are the same. It's like P.B. Herman opening up his closet. All those suits. yeah i can just hear keith ellen open looking and go well cherry what should we wear today i'm sorry i don't really have a good keith impression but that's what you get that i it's the best one i've heard but i do think he has a cherry do you think so you remember the chair from peewee's playhouse cherry wasn't up the name cherry yeah i don't remember what sounded like i think cherry was with the with the big eyelashes i think she was i remember what she looked like i don't remember what she sounded like yeah i don't either hey peewee why don't you sit down is it that she sounds like marge i think that was marge's sister sit down yeah get me a pack of camels what's wrong with you peewee where's your bike why'd you lose it again rub on me i'm too stiff oh man i love peewee herman love that show the movie was better than the show too tim burton movie was very oriented to adults uh big adventure was yeah my kids loved that film and i don't mind when they watch it so i guess what we're saying is keith ellen i mean ain't no crudes too but oh man going toe-to-toe that'd be a tough call i'm still going peewees there but that's a tough call maybe not all the peewee films crudes too might beat that but big adventure and beating that Keith Elwin said that his next game dennis has an upper flipper surprise surprise but this time it's an upper flipper with a twist i didn't know if he was being literal and it was the monopoly the fucking spinning little oh no oh come on no i'm a flipper with a twist that's a gimmick no way but what twist does an upper flipper have he's already done the twist of the mini two-inch flipper on Iron Maiden. What twist, maybe the twist is that the flipper comes out of the play field, kind of like the spinning strange disc. Maybe it's in the middle, middle, middle of the play field. Ew. You know, not on the side, but he's incorporated. I mean, obviously the Iron Maiden little flipper was not against the side of the pinball machine. It was way up at the top, maybe something lower down. Is he splitting the play field like Spy Hunter or Genie? Oh, I mean, wow, that would be... I don't think so. There's twists and then there's radical deviations that people will actually hate. I guess Alien then? Alien had a flipper that was right in the middle of the playfield. Yeah, Alien did. Yeah, maybe something along those lines. Maybe a flipper that works like the little boom pop and it pops up. It's only available sometimes. Coming out of the playfield. So, yeah, your thought on that? That would be an interesting twist. I don't know mechanically how you would ever get that to work What if the flipper After you flip it It does like a 180 And now it's on the other side So it's sort of in the middle And it either functions as a left or a right Like the truck on JP The ball goes the other side That's interesting And then there's like a shot on the left And a shot on the right that's accessible Depending on how you've positioned that flipper What if it's a flipper that you can only use If you have that power up That's the only time you can activate that flipper, and it stages it for you, and you've got one shot. That's it. Yeah, that would be a twist. There are a lot of little twist things you can do. Keith, come on. What are you talking about? Twist. What do you think Keith Edwin's next game is? Do you think it is Godzilla? Because that is what everyone is rumor milling. Well, then I guess I would go with a rumor. I still liked the idea of him having James Bond. I think that's fitting, too, yeah. given his love of archer i think he could incorporate a lot of spy stuff into a bond pin yeah the whole godzilla Keith Elwin thing is just continuing to catch uh that's my godzilla that was like baby zilla i know it's more that's pretty good it was also scary but that's more godzilla sorry there was no goat so he also talked about uh shedding some light on the inside of those trophies remember what we even talked about it here Dennis where we said trophies how does trophies fit into the world of Marvelous Avengers and it didn't he actually was like I can't really answer that when they asked about the trophies and why why trophies they asked the question so nice job loser kid but he said he really can't answer that and it would be more prevalent in the future and he was kind of saying outside of that particular pinball machine and an achievement system. Okay. What do you make of that? Do you think it's going to the internet connectivity? That's the one way to measure different awards throughout games? That it's bland enough and generic enough as a trophy to make sense? Yeah, it's fitting. I mean, obviously trophies are a term that... I think Microsoft pioneered the concept with achievements, but a lot of people have used PlayStation, Steam. They use the generic term trophies for theirs. so that feels like that's what they're what they're going to be going for and yeah i think it would make the most sense with an online profile system so you basically are signed in and then there's some site probably stern site where you'll be able to go and load up profiles and see who's earned what trophies be nice if they include things like here's the percentage of people that have at least one trophy in the game and what percentage of that that's how you get your count of how many people have played it. Oh, okay. And what percentage have earned the, you know, the, I got the soul gem. So that could be a measurement system as well is what you're saying. Yeah. I mean, that's how it's used on the video game side. Very interesting. Yeah, so that's what it feels like they're going for because he even admitted, he said, do trophies make sense in Marvel's Avengers? No, they don't. But they're there for another reason. We'll have to wait and see, I guess. Mm-hmm. We didn't have to wait very long to hear Gary Stern. He was interviewed on the Super Awesome Pinball show this last week, and they were having their one-year anniversary, I believe. I'm in the process of listening to this episode, but I have not gotten to the interview yet, so this will all be new to me. Oh, you're in the Ed Van Der Veen section. I am, yes. Gotcha. So Gary Stern, as many of you know, is the CEO of Stern Pinball, one of the founders. Before we go into some of the details of this interview, and I'm not going to give away too much. You go and listen to it yourselves. But I have to really give a ton of credit to the Super Awesome Pinball Show, notably their hosts, Christopher Franchi and Christian Line. Maybe I even said Christian Line first. They both, I can't wait to listen, they slayed that interview. They killed it. They did such an impeccable job. All of the common pitfalls that they could have fallen into, They stayed away from, and they asked some tough questions. And Gary Stern was unbelievably cordial and entertaining and informative. It was an A in my books, an A interview. So I just wanted to give a lot because Chris and I don't always see eye to eye on things. But this, all the credit due from me to those guys, fucking slayed it. I thoroughly enjoyed it. Well, I look forward to getting to the interview and being able to hear it then. Man, it was good. Gary was talking about how much money it costs to develop a new pinball title. This was a bit surprising to me. He said $1 million to $2 million to create. Why does that surprise you? Because I know that Stern tries to be as efficient as possible, even in some of their design elements, using parts they're accustomed to and they know. Yeah, but you have a lot of embedded salary in the development cycle. That's going to be a chunk of that. That's true. one million dollars to create a new title every new title or two or two he said uh one one or more so i just put one to two but one one or a lot more uh million dollars to create a new or two for beatles because million was just the license oh boy we'll talk about some flops no not flops i think it was i forgot which host asked but they asked about are there ever times gary where you have to kind of switch titles in production timeline something is slated to come out next but just sales-wise, it just doesn't make sense to what you're doing at the time, or maybe our society's in, or just another title is potentially hitting better. Do you ever switch those up? And he said, it happens. And he said, it happens. Almost as if it felt as if it happens, not regularly, but it does happen. Yeah, I know there's been a lot of speculation about certain games where, And there have been comments from developers and stuff where it sounded like Jurassic Park ended up – they had to rush a little bit before they – so that might have been a shift. Well, I think Turtles was shifted around a bit, I thought. No? Well, of course, the obvious one would be to say the decision to put out Wonelly in 2015 instead of 1975 was meant to come out. Good call. Yeah, nobody can argue with that. Gary goes on a tangent In a tirade about mod makers Really? Oh yeah And Gary was having some vodkas too So he was loose He was threatening almost some of these mod makers Saying that Be careful He basically said if you're using intellectual property Or any likeness It is a felony He said it is a felony Be careful Is it a felony? He claimed it was a felony He said, I don't know. He said likely the only way you going to see jail time because of it is if you continue to repeat it after you been told to stop But he said it is a felony Wow So he said stop doing it. And I don't know if that was like part of me felt like because I know the history between him and Christopher Franchi. And that's they kind of ended it on Franchi saying he wanted to sell art prints and it got ugly. But it almost felt like this is how important this is to me. I'm Gary Stern. and we partner with these. And he also said, like, some of these mod makers compromise their ability to do licensing because these intellectual properties holders come back and say, if this is the community that you're running, if this is the industry that you're in, we have no interest in doing anything else with you. Seemed a bit heavy. Yeah, well, maybe they see it as a serious threat. Wow. It was surprising. He was strong. I'm looking forward to you listening to that. talked about uh speaking of mods the star wars topper ah yes he said nope that's the hulk duty when are we going to see that did he answer that oh oh hulk 2d2 or the avengers top yeah no hulk duty oh man we gotta work on radio on that one gary said basically they lost their ass on the star wars toppers lost their ass well they're still for sale so i guess i'm not too shocked. That's true. But they're for sale from distributors. They've already sold them to us distributors. I don't see how they lost their ass. It made me think they lost their ass because of the production delays, the licensing, and the licensing, and the licensing. That would be my guess. They have a three-dimensional main character of that saga on the top or moving around and interacting with the player. There's no way that's cheat dennis oh speaking of i just unboxed a star wars comic premium for myself well doing some quick research uh yeah it looks like gary stern is correct criminal copyright infringement does appear to be felony status yeah because let's see oh let's see fines of not more than a million dollars imprisonment for not more than 10 years those would be felony levels the government will not prosecute innocent infringers persons who have a good faith reason to believe that copying was permitted although those can still be subject to civil lawsuit willful violators and those who do it for purposes of financial gain of the digital millennial copyright act may be subject to fines of not more than 500 000 or imprisonment for not more than five years there's also a status under over just general copyright not the dmca copyright but uh yeah okay wow yeah so he was he was really pushing that okay well uh i did not know that i most of the stuff i've ever heard on copyright has always been civil but but uh usually of course most of the instances we hear about are things like on twitch and stuff where it is inadvertent or not done for financial gain reasons yes yeah uh so but obviously i see where the thing with mod makers would be no you're making these products on purpose to sell them that's what he was on yeah they know well so So it's deliberate, and it's for financial gain. Though most of the pro-mod entities, you know, I mentioned MeasleMods earlier, all their stuff I see are generic. You know, they deliberately, they seem to know what they're doing. They know how to skirt the line. It's like, yeah, we're not going to make a mod of an R2-D2. We'll make a mod of some generic space thing that you can stick in your machine. Yeah, 3-2-F-5, and then your computer crashes. Well, the example I've given before is rather than selling an enterprise that they built themselves, they'll sell asteroids. Yes. Or you buy a thing that already had the rights. Like they were, for a while, I think, selling birds of prey, but those were just purchased from Hallmark, which had secured the license, and they added LEDs to them to make them cooler. Man. Those were cool. I wish I had gotten one, but they were too pricey by the time I saw them. So, yeah, he was, and I thought, well, maybe Gary's positioning himself here. Either he's just being loose Gary and shooting off the cuff, because that's how Gary Stern, I could see Gary Stern just naturally that coming into his mind. Or maybe this is a concentrated effort, Dennis, to say, hey, behind the scenes, we're really going all in on these accessories, and we're really pumping up accessories, so I need to get the counterpoint out there to drum down that arena as well to say, mod makers, you need to stop while we keep increasing. Well, but beyond the most shooter rods and stuff, they haven't really shown a lot of interest of play field mods. Yeah, that's true. Like I've not – like it would make more sense to me that they would be doing those and then let's stomp out the competition that's operating illicitly, not – let's stomp the competition first and then bring out our product. That's true. Well, because to me, here's the issue. The copyright infringement, while it's still an infringement, it's not – if he doesn't have another mod out right now, it doesn't affect – like that's on Disney to enforce the Star Wars copyright, not Stern. Well, he also said that too. He was like, we have a relationship with these property holders that in our contract, pretty much by default, it says if you willingly know of anyone infringing upon our copyrights or intellectual property based on our contract, you are to tell us. Right. So I assume they're reporting to the boss. Damn. Yeah. Exciting. Seemed a little heavy there. Well, given in the world, shifting back to the topper thing, now that we're in a world of $1,000 TMNT and Elvira toppers, sorry, I just can't feel a lot of sympathy for how the – I mean the Star Wars topper was a disaster in a lot of ways, not the least of which was that it took them years to come out with and that they decided to put an artificial limit on them. And several issues out of the box for a lot of them too. Oh, you mean functionally there were problems? Yes. Oh, absolutely. Anything that moves as a topper is susceptible to issues. How many customers have you had call you with an issue with their Elvira moving topper? Three. Wow. Yeah, it happens. Same with Turtles, not yet. I don't know if there's enough out there yet. Turtles is perfect. Black Knight, it moves. It could potentially have a problem. I opened up a Star Wars topper this weekend and put it on that game. mine worked and I'm in love with it for anybody that says that topper sucks you like all toppers though so that's kind of I don't like all toppers I pretty much like you like all manufacturer made toppers I think I do but no that Star Wars topper is badass and I didn't know this so the benefits of a stern topper or OEM topper from these manufacturers is there's a relay so you send topper sends information the computer sends information to topper it's a cycle So when you plug the topper in for the Star Wars R2-D2 topper, Dennis, it makes noises through the system from R2 himself or herself. It's a machine, Zach. It's an it. I'm personifying things. From itself, where if you didn't have that topper plugged in, you wouldn't get those audio call-outs. That's cool. So when it chirps, that's coming through the regular speaker system, and that's when he's moving his head. I just it was a really nice touch I like it it looks visually it looks great here's the problem put the topper on it put the shaker in shooter motor look at me go I don't have the mirror blades give it time but I'm gonna get them Penn Stadium we got it all five games in and it dies it's just dead the game or the topper the game the game is dead it's dead that's unfortunate first time it's happened on a certain but see even dealers have to deal with that kind of stuff too it's unfortunate and uh five games in but it's a node board inside cabinet they'll send me one monday they're good about that did you know ball rogue was 150 toy nope doesn't look like it yeah maybe the mechanics and the r&d yeah yeah all together i guess i can kind of see it but yeah he was talking about the great ball rogue story good thing it pops out every time you play I'm friends with Keith P. Johnson, but Keith, I'm going to have to agree with him on this one. His reasoning makes more sense. You spend $150 for a toy and a pinball machine, that damn thing better be used. And I agree. He also talked about my hero at Stern Pinball, such a lovely, wonderful, intelligent woman by the name of Shelly Sachs. What do you know about Shelly Sachs, Dennis? I don't know really anything yeah see it's travesty she's been there from way in the daddy's days with Gary, Joe Kamenkower and her the trifecta give me Shelly Sachs over the field is what I'm saying she's a saint and why do I bring this up because she is behind the scenes doing everything she is like Gary Stern you know what I was going to say she's Gary Stern right hand woman But actually, Gary Stern is her right-hand man. That's how strongly I feel about Shelly Sachs. And if anybody has interactions with Stern Pinball, they know that you've got to get on the Shelly side. I love Shelly Sachs. But she shipped, the other day, 223 games. One day. Imagine what 223 boxes of pinball machines looks like. She coordinated the ship. That's a lot of boxes. Unbelievable. That's Stern Pinball. He was talking about that in the interview. And just alone, like last month alone, 1,400 games left the factory. Holy shit. And the last piece of stern news this week is the Avengers topper. It shipped. It's out. It's on top of my machine right now. So how much are these? These come in at $649.99 plus shipping. The pricing's all over the place. There's no rhyme or reason. Yeah, I don't get it. Well, is there anything that moves on it? No. Okay, so maybe that's it. Moving things are now $1,000, and non-moving things are $650. There's got to be a formula to this. There's got to be. I think they're just still playing a bit. No, my mind can't handle there not being a formula. So they decided $600 for non-moving wasn't enough, so they've added another $50, and moving's at $1,000. That's what it feels like right now. We'll see when Stranger Things comes out. So this is like Jurassic Park. It's got mode with it. Yeah, but the only thing I have noticed is that we're not hearing all the screaming. Nobody's talking about this. Well, this isn't the first. This is the second. Like the precedent's already been set. And now that we know that there are manufacturer toppers at 1,000, this is less than that. That's true. In a way, it sounds weird. I mean, obviously, you can do what I did and sort of focus in and say, yeah, but it's the most expensive non-moving topper they've ever sold because it is. Yeah. I don't know. It's right up there with Jurassic Park kind of thing. It does have a mode. I found it interesting that they released to us dealers and to the public basically a rule set for the extra mode that's in this Avengers Infinity Quest topper. I don't know if they've done that before. They sure as hell didn't do it on Jurassic Park with the Goatmania mode. Was Goatmania just so simple, though, they didn't really need that? No, I think it was new, so they weren't prepared to explain that mode. Yeah, that makes sense, actually. I could go with that. Now they just want to let people know what they're getting here. So basically you're collecting all six gems, very much like spelling out the Jurassic Park letters. They do roll over, so it's progressive. Progressive, yeah. And even when you're turning the game off, it will save in memory how many stones you had collected. You've got to finish that mode to get that stone. So once you fill it up, you go into one of a number of different modes, but they're all the same mode? It's weird. it's called gym mania but it could also be stone frenzy rock craze or elemental delirium the name is random the mode is the same rules regardless of the name maybe that controls which shots are lit oh yeah maybe it's just odd stand by for 13 ball play yeah but it gives you the like three ball multiball one million points awarded for starting the mode here's what jack pods here progressively how you build them up i found it interesting i'm like are they really going all in on this DLC-ish topper thing? Topper LC. Topper LC. Trademark. That's a good one. Topper loadable content. That's a good one. A little bit of TLC. Do you still agree with this? No, not really. Because I think all it does is piss people off and you're not holding the price down on pinball machines. They're still going up. From the consumer perspective, why are you doing it? That was the argument video games had with their DLC was we're not going to raise the price of the base game. We're just going to put out this extra stuff as DLC and charge you then. And they did hold the line. But if Stern's going to keep raising their machines every three pins $100, that clearly isn't working. Maybe they're going to hold now? I don't know. They haven't said that there's any reason to do this other than it makes them money. So I don't see a consumer benefit to it at all. You can get the score up in this mode too. I mean, you can do add-a-balls. It's a multiball. it's significant. You can have it on by default and then if you start a competition game it turns off. Right, yeah. Anything progressive at this point they'll make a way for you to disable it for competitive purposes. I will say it's a beautiful topper. It looks really good. It's very similar to the Jurassic Park where you get a lot of those lighting effects and 2D plastics. So there's nothing over the top movement wise. It's just a really nice crown for the top of that pinball machine. Which a lot of people are loving that game right now. It's turning into the next streamer game. You know what I mean? There's always a streamer game of the month or of the quarter. Yeah, some of that's driven by online competition stuff. I think everyone got a little sick of watching Jurassic Park, let's just say, because it seemed like everyone was streaming it to play in some competitions. They're for a little bit Hot Wheels, got a little bit of that spotlight as the streamer game of the month. but I think we're getting ready to dive into Avengers Everywhere streaming. And speaking of streaming, there's a big-ass event this last week. Absolutely, Zach. Pim Slash. Pim Slash was held this weekend. That was so nice. Eight hours of pinball clashes. Yes. I watched a very small portion of this. Unfortunately, right after I tuned in, I got to see like one and a half games, and then they were like on an extended break where there were a lot of interviews. So I went back to reading a novel instead. Oh. Pin Slash was held in deed. And, Dennis, what is wrong with me? There's something happening to me. I'm getting the shakes. I'm getting sweats. Yeah, what it is ain't exactly clear. I like that. See? See? What? I won't go there. You can't. I know. I know. I'm just impressed you knew it. That's mean. You dangled the carrot and then you pulled it away. I'm sorry for being on this show for my niceness. Though I am the second nicest person in all of pinball. Consider the source? Yeah, I'm the source. I'm making this claim. I have data to back it up. I don't know what's wrong with me because I'm supposed to be a collector, a flexer. Why did I watch at least six hours of this? Well, it was well produced, so they made it entertaining. and I think a lot of people who play pinball at some level like an element of competition, even if it's not the formal structure of playing for Whoppers through the IFPA. It's still a game and people try and win versus other people or beat their top scores or something. It's task-based, fast match play. And that could be part of it, task-based. So that really appeals to the, as Keith noted on his Loser Kid interview when he designs a game, he does one of two things. He thinks about the people who play for score and the people who play for story. But you're still trying to win your way through both. But I don't like speedrun stuff. This is the stuff that I don't like. No, speedrun is the only way to really make it entertaining to casuals, to those that don't know. Not true. Pinball is one of the worst, in the strictest normal competitive sense, it's one of the worst competitive games because the better you do, the longer it goes, which is like the antithesis to every sport. I will not accept that. So you watched it. Maybe you hate watched it and you didn't really like it. Carl! Did you hate watch it? Was this like a hate watch thing? Look what you're doing to me, Carl. It wasn't a hate watch. It was a, this is fascinating and entertaining and well produced. And the commentators are brilliant. Snow Galvin and Steven Bowden. They were great. Jeff Teolis on interviews. The production and the direction of Carl D'Python Anghelo and the IU pinball team. damn you guys, damn you. You know what the most beautiful aspect was in my view? That that all integrated, happened, produced and it somehow miraculously didn't need the person who has never played in a competitive thing to do it for them. Who are you talking about? I'm just speaking in general terms. I'm a generalist. I still want to crack at it. No, why bother? It's been done and been done better than what you would have done. Oh! That's just mean because you don't know. No, that's the... Now you have that... Because you know how you get. I know. People tell you something's not possible, and you start to want to do it. I go all in. Nope. You can't beat Carl. Carl's the master. Very nicely done. He's like Darth Vader. He's going to fight you one-handed, just like poor Luke in Empire. I am Luke. And you're going to lose your hand. And then how will you slap Greg in the face? Is he my father? Carl? Greg? Probably not. No. Carl. it was very nicely executed they held a viewer count dennis and listener of 350 to 400 individuals for the entire eight hours oh yeah people were messaging me about it uh it was i saw it was discussed in the kansas city discord was talking about it i had someone messaged me asking me if i was watching it when it was it was already been underway for a while uh yeah no it was a big it was a big deal and i think the if i'm being honest i think one of the biggest reasons i watched number one it was engaging it was very well done it it was everything that i love about pinball but another big part of it if i'm being honest with myself was uh the tpn camaraderie there was a lot of tpn affiliate streamers in there part of that competition and i consider them friends so it was it was nice feeling like i was vicariously part of the team there and rooting for them and a lot i've seen a lot of other tpn people in in the chat supporting one another and again it's exactly what we want. That was great. So I think maybe that was a big draw too for me. Yeah, that would make sense. Sure. Special shout out to all of those that showed that TPN love, including Jeff Teolis and Fliptronic and everybody. I felt that. That was nice to see. Did you see the finals? I love our group. I did see the finals. I don't want to spoil it, but it did come down to, surprise, surprise, number one ranked Raymond Davidson, number two ranked Esh Lefkoff. Good showing by Taylor James Rees. Tay-Tay is what they call him. Taylor is a player. Wow. Don't be fooled by all this talk about just building rails and stuff. He knows how to play. Holy moly. And he is fun to watch. He is animated. He's really violent. His facial expressions, I felt like I jogged a couple miles. I was like, his facial expressions, that is what we need on video if we're trying to pitch this thing. And Rob Byers, good lord. Rob had a good showing. He was dressing up and spinning the spinner on his WWE belt. It was a bunch of fun. Nicely done. Moving on throughout the pinball news this week, Canadian Pinball Podcast did interview designer Dave Sanders. Dave Sanders, for those of you who don't know, was the designer of Alien Pinball as well as Full Throttle Pinball. He was part of that Highway team. And most recently, he's been credited for designing Puny Factory by Pinball Adventures or Pinball Buzz. I don't know what the company's called. But they were chatting. A couple things that I found interesting on their show was that he was talking about the concepts in all of these highway machines as a designer. The full throttle concept of a chain loop accelerator. So the full throttle game. I don't know. Andrew Highway wanted to pitch this chain loop accelerator thing. getaway supercharger, but vertical. But vertical. How would that have worked? Dave Sanders said it would never have worked, so they talked him out of it. He said, plus it looked very phallic, like a big metal schlong. Well, you could have reshaped that a little bit. Depends on if it's colored outside, Dennis. I didn't just say resize it A little metal swamp A little loop And you'll pick up on Dave Sanders has a lot of A lot of innuendo He's very focused on Some of these Body parts And some of the failed attempts At some of these designs I thought this one was cool though Denison, full throttle, you know how there's those spinning discs Like the wheels On the play field Yeah. Yeah. It's been a while since I've played it. I think there's like two spinning discs. They look like wheels. He said, originally, they were supposed to be coming up kind of like a pop bumper in Circus Voltaire. But they were supposed to be spinning rubber bumpers that came up. Oh, like Orbiter One? Do those come up out of the play floor? No, but they spin. Yes. And they're one of the few instances I know of that do. Like that. And I thought, that's a really good idea. I think that would be fun, seeing the ball interact with that. The ideas from Orbiter One are great ideas, Zach. That's why it was such a hit game. I don't think that that's why it was a bust, but the spinning rubber bumpers. I want to see that. That sounded fun. Rubber baby bubby bump. Oh, you almost got through it. It's not a Tuma. I'm from southern Indiana. I can't say that stuff fast. He also worked on Alien as a designer after, I guess, Nordman left. But they were talking about an effect on the ramp habit trail where the ball would be like a bursting effect through the chest. Like the face hugger or the chest burster or whatever. Yeah, that's one of the most famous scenes from the original Alien. You know, the actors weren't aware what was going to happen that day. Oh, God, I did not know that. That's how they got those surprised looks. I've seen some of the props that they used and the special effects of that chest and everything, but I didn't know they didn't know that. And back then, everything was like real. back in like the 70s and 80s everybody believed everything but he said ultimately they had to can it because it ended up looking like an ass pooping and he made a it's a I like when it washes back up it's like a cheap bidet I'm back well Kyle where is he he's coming Come on dude push I'm trying Wait wait I can see his head Here he comes Howdy ho neighbor Oh no He can't get rid of me I smell like flowers I'm on the alien I'm on the alien I've always wanted to start My own alien game Shoot the toilet They scrapped it And again, Dave Sanders going back to the potty. I'm 50% acid and 50% corn. I'll burn through that damn cat. 50% acid, 50% corn. That's good. That's a good one. Actually, I will do it. I'm going to pull a Greg. I'm going to give you a little side story. Apologies to the listeners in advance. So I went to pick up food yesterday. I was at a chicken place drive-thru. Not like the Thanksgiving food you picked up, right? No. Oh, gosh. Let's not talk about that. And so I'm there, and the person in front of me is – no, sorry. I'd already ordered, so I'm waiting in line. The person behind me is ordering, and she's wanting something customized. And she asked for if they could give her 50% gravy, 50% barbecue sauce, and 50% chili. And to his credit, the worker said, well, I can't actually give you three 50%. but but if you would like i can give you thirds and i was like kudos to that guy being willing to correct someone like that who is just you know kind of yeah i only push it 150 shitting all over math that hard i was like i should have given him a tip you should have i don know the person who built i don think the person who worked the window was the person who was on the microphone though It didn sound the same What a smart fella. Well, I mean, to be fair, it is fairly obvious. But nonetheless, I mean, this person is just like, you know, 50%, 50%, 50%. She wanted them all mixed in one? She was like ordering a, I don't know what exactly. I don't know what, I didn't hear what she was ordering for sure. Like if she was ordering like different types of chicken strips or what. But regardless, she was talking in terms of 50 percent. But she wanted to do things three different ways. So her math wasn't any good. And that's why it was important to me that Mr. Hankey's composition was accurate to 100 percent. I like it. And to her credit, she did laugh and recognize her error. Okay. She didn't pull a Karen on it. Sometimes you get those people that like enjoy that. He's probably an extrovert. It was, in a way, exhausting to me as well. You'll hear this. Extrovert. Did he try to sell you on a certain chicken platter? No, no. He just took my order and was done. What did you order? I didn't order chicken. I ordered a pork tenderloin. A pork tenderloin, huh? Uncooked? Yeah. No, it was cooked. I didn't know if it was like a butcher shop where you take it home and cook it. Yeah, I love to have liver flukes, so I eat all my pork raw, Zach. I can see the blood just running down your chin. So what size did you get? fries. Really? How American of you. 80% of their side orders are fries, I believe. So does they announce their food stats on their Facebook page? Because they mix up their menus. Because they do like sweet potato, tater tots, and okra, I think fried pickles, things like that. I think the sweet potato fries is an abomination. I don't like sweet potato. I hate it, actually. Don't try to jazz it up and fry it and call it a fry. It's still unhealthy, and it doesn't taste as good. Yeah, and they've pivoted on that. They used to do sweet potato fries, and they weren't selling well, so now they do sweet potato tater tots, which maybe stay more sweet potato-y in the center. I don't know. Maybe. No one orders them, I don't know. Don't mess up a good tot. You've got to have them crispy. And speaking of, there's a lot of rumblings going around right now. Yes. about Alien. Pinball Brothers. Pinball Brothers has been teasing, teasing, teasing. I've heard rumors that Dutch Pinball may be doing the production. Yeah, who knows? And the Playfield Monitor sounds like it's gone now for expense reasons. It still interests me. That game interests me. I think ultimately it will be a fail because it doesn't have Sigourney Weaver. That's just my take. It's always going to be my take if you don't have the main character but you're still trying to put video assets in. It's a fail. Well, you know, the argument is she didn't have that many good lines. What a stupid argument. Who's arguing that? I'd like to slap them. I read it on Penn State. I don't remember who said it. That person deserves a slap. Doesn't have good lines. I think it was someone who worked on the game. It was their logic when they couldn't. It wasn't that they couldn't secure her. It was the price that was quoted from her agent or whatever. And so they made the decision that, well, she doesn't have enough good lines to worry about that. And, you know, they thought it worked. She is alien. She's a franchise. That's my opinion. As a fan of the franchise, of the original quadrilogy in particular, I feel that if you want to have an alien game, you really should have the star of the show. The only unifying factor across all four movies is Sigourney Weaver. I would be open to purchasing this game if they can figure it out. I don't know who would be building it, but they're teasing it. I've only played it once. I think the rules are great. I think the rule concept for the game was good. I didn't think it shot all that well, personally. Just not for me. And it's a wide body. I'm not too surprised. I wasn't thrilled with the geometry. True. True. It wasn't awful. It was, like, I put it in the top half of wide bodies I've played. Code's supposed to be fun. Yeah. No, from what I could tell of the rules, the rule development was excellent. I really think it was solid. And, of course, you know, the coder got picked up by American Pinball. And I think Alien alone would have been enough of a resume to justify that hire. American Pinball, they still should make that. What have they got to lose? Oh, you think Pinball Brothers should go to American Pinball and arrange for you? Yeah, that makes sense to me. I would trust the production more than I would with Dutch. And that's what American Pinball lacks. They lack creative ideas for titles. They lack creativity. I mean, I hate to be like that, but that's what they're lacking. So they're a match made in heaven to me. So we'll see what pinball brothers, I think they're going to be appearing on SAP sometime soon. Jersey Jack pinball's in the news. Somebody pulled out of their brand new Jersey Jack Guns N' Roses machine a signed... A waka. It was a missed boxing business. A pin inside a pin, yo. It was a poster signed by Slash. What a cool commemorative piece to open up as part of your kick-ass pinball machine. That's neat. So it feels like they're kind of tipping into the, remember they did the signed hat on the, the Slash signed hat on the stand? Yeah, I remember when that appeared on Pinside for sale. I was talking to our buddy Ken Cromwell, just on the phone bullshitting with him, and he brought that up and was talking about it. And I was like, wait, would you be willing to give us a statement on some of this you're telling me? He's like, yeah, sure. An official statement from JJP Communications Director Ken Cromwell. Thank you. This is an official statement. Hey, hey, hey, Dennis here with your JJP Communications official statement update. Correspondent. Correspondent. We're tired of waiting and seeing, Zach. Can you please read the statement? Ken Cromwell states, The GNR slash signed poster campaign was something that I worked on with Eric Meunier and slash of GNR. I really wanted to offer a chance for our supporters to own something unique, regardless of what model of GNR they purchase. So we have a very limited number of Slash signed posters that will be randomly dropping in boxes of brand new GNR pinball machines for the next few months. I think it's a really cool bonus and adds another level of anticipation upon receiving your brand new game. I'm grateful to Eric and Slash for being as excited about this as I am. And I'm even more grateful to our distributors and buyers that have helped make this title a huge hit. Ken Cromwell. Cool. That was really nice. Nice. I like this movement that he made there because he knows. We talked about that. There's something special about getting that extra little thing. So he's coordinated this, and they were agreeable to it, and they're excited about it. So continue doing this kind of stuff, J.J.P. This is good. Ken might be on fire. Ken is on fire. Not literally on fire because that's dangerous and painful. Stop, drop, and roll. Didn't you learn that, Ken? Professionally on fire. Yes. He is on fire. You know what I would like to see for the Twippies? We'll talk about the Twippies here. The Twippies had some changes, a lot the same, a lot different, but they changed up their Rookie of the Year category. I saw that, yeah. It can no longer include anybody outside of manufacturing? Yeah, I think it's now set to be a rookie working for a pinball manufacturer. Apologies if I'm not summarizing that accurately, but that was my interpretation of what I remember reading. And I believe the nomination has to be made by the company, a formal letter or something. I don't know the details on that. But I think that Ken Cromwell should be given a huge push on that Rookie of the Year. I was actually, when you mentioned the Twippies, I was actually thinking it would be interesting if there had been a category for, like, best pinball game launch. I mean I'm not suggesting it's actually worth adding a whole new category on a word series that has a ton of categories already but just thinking about the importance of having a a reveal we've talked about it several times now about how well Ken with Jersey Jack and the launch of GNR has been and similar a lot of positive response in terms of the launch of Rick and Morty out of Spooky and I started thinking You know, that's one of the big things that a lot of people in pinball do talk about is how well executed was the launch on these things. That's a great point, actually. But, yeah, Rookie in this case obviously would be a good way to recognize Ken's hard work. I mean, that's the big change that I know of is they brought in Ken. You see that social media firing on all cylinders? Yeah, yeah. I mean, Wonka I thought had a pretty good reveal, but GNR is like – to me, it is the best reveal of all time, at least since I've been in the hobby for the last eight years. I don't think people would argue with you. It's gold standard. I don't think so either. So maybe there's no point in adding a category because we would just give it to him. I don't think it would be the Pinburgh every year of a Jersey Jack reveal, but I think it's an interesting thing that people do talk about. I would like to see – Yeah, Rookie. Yeah, Rookie. That makes sense. I'd like to see Ken Cromwell in the running for that because I think I don't – off the top of my head, I'm trying to think of somebody else. Raymond Davidson will be in the running, I guess, if he's nominated. I don't believe so. You don't think so? Wasn't Avengers his first game to really work code on? No. See, I think they were talking in our TPN Discord that Ray Day should be. I don't think he's eligible. So be careful before you vote there because he has worked on previous titles. And he's not a lead here. So he is, going back to my early Twippy committee years, I don't believe he's eligible. He is not doing anything distinctly different this year as a rookie that he wasn't doing last year. I see what you're saying. Huh. He worked on Jurassic Park some. He worked on Iron Maiden some, to my knowledge. Well, I guess it will come down to what the committee uses for their criteria. And that's the tough part for that committee because people are submitting their votes now for a write-in. And that was the other thing. There was a change in the write-ins where you can write in more than one person for these write-in categories, favorite podcaster, the pinball show, favorite YouTube, straight out of the middle, that kind of stuff. You could do two instead of one. But what was strange is, and I don't agree with this one. This is a change that I would have been, they would have had to listen to me. I would have been loud on. If you're calling it a write-in, you're defeating the entire concept and idea of a write-in when you're adding a drop-down menu. Essentially, listener, you have just changed the write-in. They should call it drop-ins because there's two rounds of drop-ins now for the favorite categories. It is redundant and, to me, makes no sense. But there is a way to actually type in a write-in. Correct, but there are so many flaws that you're introducing by adding a drop-in system in preliminary voting. It's called write-in. It is what off the top of your head that you watch and you consume would you like to see eligible for that top ten. It's a write-in. You shouldn't be prompting people for that. Yeah, I mean, it does obviously introduce them. You're prompting people in the final count. with the top 10. That's the prompt. You don't need a prompt. You actually need opposite of a prompt. That's what creates this top 10. Well, I mean, you know, you get I'm assuming the advantage, for example, to the processing is you won't have misspellings and stuff if people are doing the drop downs. I mean, I see like logistically where there would be value for that sort of stuff. But on the flip side, if something's not in the list, for example, it's going to be greatly disadvantaged. And so it's a question of the accuracy of the list. So as a case in point, one of the things that was noted to me after I'd already voted was the pinball show, for example, this podcast is in the list of podcasts, but the midweek edition show is not yeah that's true and this is separate show and so it's like well i i can see how that would be real easy that it wasn't i'm assuming because it's pulling from the database that the midweek show must just not be in the database but so yeah yeah obviously that it'd be a lot harder hill to climb for someone who say had something like that and they would have to go for a write-in but on the flip side maybe it the the decision was more that the just the work of people trying to They type in and remember the names of the shows, and they misspell them. I mean, how many people say TPS instead of the pinball show? Well, no, they individually go in and code those stuff. Or Zaps instead of Super Awesome. You see where – Yeah, but it's not – That's a lot of work. Yeah, but it's not generated that way. I'm telling you because I've been a part of it. Painstakingly, agreeably so, they go through, and even if Super Awesome is misspelled, it's not like the system won't catch it and add. They code each one of those. So that's why they're doing it. They're doing it because it's a hell of a lot easier. Right, well, but maybe trying to cut down on some of the work. Yes, they are. That's clear here. It's very clear. There's no other benefits than that. But to me, sometimes the hard work needs to be done correctly. I see your point, but I sympathize a little bit with a bunch of volunteers and how much time do you really want them to give to something that – I mean, there's still a way to do the write-in. And we had problems whenever we were doing the Twippy the first couple of years. Like if somebody would write, say, for example, Ken Cromwell. Well, what do you do with that? Ken Cromwell does, let's say it was for a podcast. Well, Ken Cromwell was doing Special One Lit. And he might not be the best example, but there was sometimes like Special One Lit streaming. So he was doing Special One Lit streaming a little bit last year, but he was also doing Flip N Out Pinball. So do you code Ken Cromwell Flip N Out Pinball? Or do you code Ken Cromwell? Oh, yes. Nothing? That's a good point. So that's where they ran into a lot of problems. Or like Chuck Ward, we ran into that. Kerry Hardy was another one we ran into. When somebody puts Kerry Hardy, well, shit. Kerry Hardy has a YouTube channel, but he is also a provider for Straight Down the Middle channel. So who do you give that to? So that's what they were trying to get rid of that, but it's a tough one. It's hard. It's hard to solve these logistical issues. I do not envy them in the work that goes into that. I don't. either. Now, speaking of Kerry Hardy, he reported that he is no longer a host of the Twippies this year. He's not coming back. He was asked that they were going to, Twippies were going their own separate way this year. Now, I'm assuming that it's still, from the way it sounded, they're doing it in March, so it sounds like it's either live at TPF or they're going to do it online. Yeah, that's what they're hoping for. If TPF is a no-go. Yeah, I still see Emoto being a host. I don't know who the other host is. Maybe just a single host? maybe just Emoto? They did add Josh Sharpe into the committee. Maybe Josh Sharpe hosting it with Emoto? I don't know. Does it have to be a committee? I mean, Kerry and Emoto weren't on the committee last year, were they? No. I'm just trying to know who's new. I thought whenever Kerry exited, I was like, oh, okay, well, this is definitely a Jack Danger, Emoto, Stern Awards kind of thing. That's what I would guess. I don't think Jeff would host. So I don't know. It'll be interesting to see what they do with that. So changing the host and the changing of the criteria, there's now a list of criteria that each category has to meet. I'll say pretty easily met, but at least there's some distinction there. Nobody has to guess now. Well, why didn't I get included as a consideration, whereas this person did? So cleaning that up a little bit. But, yeah, hosting or streaming in March, either live or at TPF. Well, maybe you can clarify this for me. So is the ranked voting applying to the best of categories or just the favorites? I think it's just the favorites because they're doing like a – what do you call it? Preferential voting you were saying? Right, right. I read something about like vote – you could vote top three, and whatever number one is gets three points. Two gets two, and three gets one. That changes a lot of stuff. It does. Well, I mean that's sort of a more – what I would describe almost as a parliamentary style. But yeah, ranked voting usually is more accurate. It's interesting that they capped it to three and not getting the ability to rank out all the way. But there are all sorts of different flavors of ranked voting you can do. And I'm not sure I'm crazy about the ratio of points there. The first place getting three versus second place getting two. That ratio is pretty standard. Is it? For voting, yeah, that's pretty typical. I don't know if it's worth – if first place would really only be worth a half more than second place. It's worth a point more. Everything's a point more. Oh, 100% more. So I think it should be higher. It's like first place is three points. Second place is two points. Third place is one point. Yeah, but when you're doing like the Papa stuff, isn't first place two points over? Yeah, no. Papa does it differently, but Papa isn't voting. Understood. I like that system though to really differentiate. I see. You want to weight it. You want to apply a weight factor. These are equitably distributed. That's why it's pretty typical to see that. Yeah, so I don't know. I don't think this preferential voting applies to the – Okay, because that makes a difference. Because if the preferential voting is in Game of the Year, it's going to be tighter than it has been in years past. That's a really good point. Yeah, you're right. All that said, regardless of either approach, I do think Avengers ends up winning Infinity Quest. Don't take. I do think so. Well, it's an L1 game, so it's going to have that buzz going in. See, there's the big difference is a lot of people do not have location experience with a lot of the games that are eligible this year. So you're going to have a lot of people who are voting who haven't played any of these. You might actually see less people vote this year than last year because they're not comfortable making a pick because they haven't played. So I think it's really going to be driven a lot by home ownership. And my guess will be Avengers is probably the most owned game of the 2020 releases. It's definitely not GNR because they don't have enough and their production is too slow. And that's why I don't think it will be GNR. I would guess that Avengers is not. Really? I would guess no. I think it would be Turtles at this point. Okay. I could see Turtles. Because Avengers, that second big run of premiums, still hasn't shipped. But remember, voting isn't until January. Yeah, that's right. That's right. I think you're right. Yeah. This is a tough one because here's what I could see. This is going to be a tough year because the two powerhouses are Avengers and Guns N' Roses. Those are the powerhouses here. I would argue for Turtles to be in there as well, but I just don't think the public will. Game of the Year, I think you could see something, listener, where Game of the Year goes to GNR, but Best Design and Layout goes to Keith Elwin. And that doesn't always happen. usually you see those like best director best picture of the year kind of together there is one but i think this year among compared to the other years i think you could see something like a game of the year being a guns and roses but the the the nod to design is going to go to avengers i mean it's conceivable but i'm just every time uh i can't think of a in these past two years against an L-win that the JJP game has done very well. Dialed in one. In the first year, dialed in, sweeped a lot. Took a lot home. That was the same year as Batman 66, I believe. Yeah, game of the year. That first year, you're right, was dialed in. That one, what was the – the vote must have been – Total Nuclear Annihilation was second that year. Oh, okay. That was the TNA year too. Okay. And Batman was third at 7%. Yeah, it had a Denise-y hype. Everybody was rooting for him. But that vote was a lot different than how it's done now, isn't it? Like, I don't remember so long ago. It didn't have as many votes because it was the first annual. Well, I mean, I really like Dialed In. I don't really fault it. Game of the Year, Dialed In was 42%, and TNA was 34%. And then everything else was under 10%. Batman was 7%, Star Wars was 6%, Aerosmith was 3%, Guardians was 3%, Alien was 3%, Lexi Lightspeed was 1%, and the Jetsons was 0%. I think JJP has a better shot this year than the last couple of years. I agree, except Wonka was a very well-respected game, and it still just got annihilated. Yeah, but Wonka did not get the reception that GNR is getting. I think people are going to, when they come down to Game of the Year, they're really going to put a lot of focus on, as a whole, bird's-eye view, what was the most impactful, just badass game of the year. The GNR moved, they moved things. It moved... It's still fundamentally a light and sound show, though, against an Elwynn design, so that's where I'm coming. I think GNR takes second, but I just don't think they are putting out designs that are going to beat Elwynn's design. I think it moved the sticks in a dynamic way that woke people up. Maybe. I may be wrong. Even if people like Avengers better, I think a lot of people are going to go into that and say, you know what? I like Avengers better, but I've got to give credit to GNR for moving the sticks. So we'll see. I don't think the sticks are moved either, by the way. I don't think we're going to see Led Zeppelin look dramatically different because of GNR. I'm not saying the sticks. I'm saying it moved the sticks. We can't go back. Led Zeppelin, if it comes out in the rumored game, if that comes out, it will be measured up against this, which is in a different category than pre-GNR. I agree it will be compared to GNR, but moving the sticks implies that other manufacturers are going to change something because they have to. The sticks have been moved, and I just don't think it's the case. There's an interpretation there, but I would even argue that. I don't think they will. I think they're like, nope, we're still growing our company. There's absolutely no reason for Stern Pinball to change strategy on what goes into a game. I would have had a better leg to stand on if JJP was cranking these machines out faster. Well, and again, normally it's been, well, there will be people that will look and just try and do an objective judgment. A lot of it comes down to what games people have played, and they're selling more Avengers. There are more Avengers in homes than there are GNRs, so it's a math game. But what makes it interesting is the reception of GNR this year is better than both Pirates and Wonka receptions combined. yeah but i don't think i i don't think it matters i think in the end it doesn't matter that much because avengers reception as a game player is what it is and some people absolutely love it and i just don't think you're going to have enough gnrs in people's homes and people aren't going to vote for it i can see the argument i i bet you it does better than i'm sure it will pull more votes than wonka did sure sure but i don't know i don't know if it breaks 30 that's assuming one person, one vote. If we got ranked voting, I think this is close. And like Travis Meary said, I don't know if you listened to his last podcast, he basically said this system is great, the people's choice thing, but you can just buy your votes. It's fine. Oh, if they're like a service or something? Yeah, he said there's several services, Facebook, forum groups that do it. Well, I mean, anything with open public voting always runs the, there's not a lot you can, I mean, you can do things to try and prevent like bots and stuff, you know, checking IP addresses, making sure one person isn't constantly just revoting. Like Jeff Bacalar, streamer at CNET or IGN. What's he part of? CNET, isn't he, Jeff? Yeah, CNET, yeah. All he'd have to do as a streamer now is just share it and think he'd win. But that's what people do now. Yeah. People post on their personal – Absolutely. I have in the past shared – It's just his reach is huge. Oh, yeah, this votes up on my personal Facebook page. I'm sure I get a few people that aren't into pinball who vote because they know me. And he probably, based on the ratio of how often he streams, gets the most views per stream. Oh, yeah, because they host that on their BeastCast stuff. They have a website where it streams all of their – they have a combined stream. I don't think he will, but it would be interesting. Yeah, I mean, up to him. It would be interesting. People will find out soon enough who you and I voted for to win the best game of a year. So stay tuned for that. Maybe I don't want to tell them. you will tell them and you'll like it. Dennis, you can stop that itching. You can stop that scratching. I know you're fiending for a little pinball market trends. Aren you buddy Yes Did you miss it A little PMT No I heard you and Greg do it It crept up into you in the middle of the night and said Bing, bing, bing. Scoot over, honey. Save me some room. I want to snuggle. Yeah, Panball Market Trends is the little spoon. The cool kids nowadays are just calling it the trends. Not with a Z, but just the trends. Did you listen to the trends this week? She was like, yeah, I so did. is awesome. That's Zach. I'm just saying, hop on board because we're going for a ride. And right now, we're trending up! Hold on tight, everybody! It's Avatar LE! Believe it or not, Avatar LE, if you're looking at the secondary market, over the last year has become popular-ish again. If I'm just looking at the numbers. And the numbers don't lie. We're only reporting the facts here, and the fact of the matter is, Avatar LE a year ago was pulling in upper force, which I would have loved to have grabbed an Avatar LE upper force. Nope. Now, 5,500 to 7,000. A couple of recent ones really going high up there. Nice examples of them, but you're seeing for some reason a lot of these older LEs will stay steady. They'll hold steady. Metallica's will hold steady. ACDC LEs will hold steady. Avatar was bottomed out, and it's starting to trickle up again. So those of you with an Avatar LE, don't give it away. Unless it's to me. I don't think I can own an Avatar LE. I don't think I've played the LE version. But I like the... I wouldn't rapidly pursue one. But I like it okay. The original. Yeah, I'm surprised you would be interested at all, actually. Because it's often compared to Iron Man with one ramp. It's the theme. it's the looks and it's the theme for me I'm a huge Avatar film fan but it has a DMD though you know you can't have DMDs I can colorize it you can't have colorized DMDs they're beneath you maybe I'll mess with those figurines a little bit those are a little Kenner-ish deep cut there Avatar LE $5,500 to $7,000 also turning up this week oh this is a good one very topical this last week training up is pinball interviews holy moly you got the loser kids you got the saps you get the final rounds in particular the gary stern and Josh Sharpe interviews were some of not only the best of this year people they were the best that i have heard final round pinball podcasts doing a competitive based pinball podcast and having on special guest Josh Sharpe president of the IFPA to give all of the details that anybody that follows competitive pinball would want, it simply was platinum status. Yeah, it was pretty good. I'm going to say it was fucking phenomenal. That was exactly, they were hitting every single stride possible on that show. And it showed. Josh Sharpe interview was great, and Josh Sharpe, kudos to him, unbelievable showing. The rapport that they have between Sharp and the hosts over there, Tillis and Robbins, unbelievable. And Christopher Franchi gives me shit. I give shit to Christopher Franchi. Sometimes we don't see eye to eye. Sometimes we want to cuddle. But regardless, the Gary Stern interview was one of my favorites ever. It was just good. I like listening to Gary Stern. I'm a bit biased. He is a salesperson, and he was just selling products that whole interview, but it worked. And it was done nicely and tactfully. And I like the end. I won't give it away to you, listener, or to Dennis Griesel. But I liked the decision made at the end. Training up. Pinball interviews. You all should be proud. That's what pinball media stands for. And that's what it should be about. Also training up this week. I'm feeling very generous. It is the season, bitches. Am I right, Dennis? You've got to trend everything up this week. Well, I guess anything that you've got for sale. Well, this one I don't. It's a Black Knight topper. Oh, no. They're gone, gone, gone. Now, get an R2 instead. They sell regularly, folks. Regularly for $1,200. Don't think you're going to find one under $1,200. It's not happening. There's some listed for, I think, $1,800. And they'll sell. Maybe not for $1,800 right now. In a year from now? Possibly. No. we just had a batman 66 le topper that sold on ebay for over thirty five hundred dollars yeah but the whole batman pin is is an expensive pin i mean black knight was a cornerstone it's different it's just different all right a kiss topper just sold for two thousand dollars yeah but uh this is gene simmons of kiss and of course anything with kiss is going to sell because we are salesmen i guess i kind of sound like shatner but yeah i'm not wrong you're a Shatner, you're a Shatner Hallet there. What does God need with a Black Knight topper? Something. Black Knight topper, regularly $1,200. That's a big-ass trend. I should have trended Avengers toppers because those things are freaking flying. No, because they're all available for retail, so it's a silly thing to trend. They're flying. Flying quick. Watch out. Heads up. But unfortunately, trending down, this isn't flying. This is stuck in a mud hole. and it's the Data East and it's Jurassic Park Jurassic Park trending down this week the Data East version it was going up it was rising but it was never creamy no no it was a little flaky shit in the bottom of the cup low threes for Jurassic Park I think early this year last year we were at 3500 upper threes even lower fours for a really nice one. Nope. We're back down to the low threes. So if you're looking for a Jurassic Park database, find you a really nice example, pull up some of the comps, and buy that thing low. $3,100. Also trending down this week is any goddamn stream of Jurassic Park for the rest of the year. Period. Woo! Gah! I've had my fill. I think the... Uh, yeah. So say we all. The community has had its fill. I went to play pinball last night, walked up to Jurassic Park and said, eh, I'm good. I'm good. I don't want to try to rescue anybody else. I don't want to escape New Bar. I still haven't got to the visitor centers now. But no, no, no. No streams of Jurassic Park. Can we agree as a community, we're done streaming Jurassic Park for 2020. It's been a shit enough year. We don't need more. It's less than a month. I don't think that's an unreasonable ask of the community. I'll support you with it. Yeah. Woo-hoo. Tune me up this week. Vince Creasel. I'm done. Or Pinball Market Trench. You heard it here. If you must stream the Data East version or the Sega Lost World version, if you must stream the Jurassic Park, you need some love, too. That would be interesting. Lost World. I just sold mine, and I really was sad to see it go. I'll never get that nice of an example again. What was me? But when they offer you $12,000, what can you do? What can you do? Damn, I did sell two Jurassic Parks in a week. Lost World and the LE It's okay, got my premium Got some custom mods that are going out right now That are being worked on They aren't infringing copyright Oh they are, that's why they will never be shared They very much are But well boy Let's just say I'm going to have a one of a kind premium Ding Alright, deals of the week this week You know what, Christmas is almost coming up So no deals of the week I want you guys to go out Get your significant other something nice. Buy your kids a PlayStation or an Xbox. Just don't get jumped in the parking lot. No deals of the week. You want a deal of the week? Come to Flip N Out Pinball, where we'll sell you and your family the most special holiday gift. Like that? Friendship. Oh, love, nurture, and support. But we do have a deal of the WTF. Sell, sell, sell. Didn't want to leave you guys hanging here. Deals of the What the Fuck This Week is a little bit different. You see, usually it's some outstandingly large price. Is that even a term, outstandingly large? Sure. Is it? Yeah, it sounds like you could do that. I think you could do that. I thought you were agreeing just because you wanted to make me look stupid. No, I don't know. It sounds legit. Okay. Legit enough. So usually it is just something way too high price, and we're like, get out of here. Stop trying to sell that shit for that. this week it's a little bit different the deal of the what in the hell is going on is outside of white bear lake minnesota it's on pin side but it's actually a wanted ad now how does one what the fuck a wanted ad well i'm gonna tell you ladies and gentlemen because i just told you what was training up and this individual by the name of scott 0308 lovely guy but bless his heart he's got a wanted ad for a black knight sort of rage topper and that's fine a lot of people want that but you're not going to catch any fish there when you say i'm looking for this topper i'm looking to pay eight hundred dollars sell sell sell just it's not what you're wasting your time but you're setting up look if you were putting into first off Nobody really looks at wanted ads. They're a waste of time. You'll never get anything out of them. Sometimes you will. Mostly never. They're useless. But whenever you say, I'm looking for something that everybody else is looking for, but I will pay less. And that's what you will sell it to me for. It's not going to work. Do you think maybe this is a typo, like he left off a zero? He left off a one maybe? Yeah. Nope. Nope. Nope. Nope. And this is a what the fuck light. Because I'm not coming on strong on this guy. I'm just saying, 2019 called. They want their fucking wanted ad back. All I know. One of the days of a black knight sort of rates top over $800. Get out of here. You know what this guy is doing, Dennis? The Scott 0303. He's living in the beat of loca. You're only allowed one song. Was it really only one? Yep. One song, one time. One song, one time. I thought it was anything that was presented in a podcast. You're allowed to choose from any of them that are presented within the week. That is a setback. Remember, I said once. You get one. I thought you meant once that particular song. No, one song. You get one song per episode. Shit! One time. Because then you were like, well, but can't I play like outro music of the same song? I love you, Ricky. If you get the copyright protection, you can. Ricky Martin. Okay. All right. You can't even adhere to the – what sort of limit is it if I'm like, yeah, you can have one of every single song everyone mentions? I would never agree to that. That's ridiculous. Well, that's why I thought I got the decent end of the deal. That's why you thought you won like you always do. Getting a song is a win for you. Shout out to Jessie J's Pinball Adventures, or should I say Jessie Ray's Pinball Adventures, for talking about – She's a high score leader now. Yeah, Ricky Martin's Livin' La Vida Loca. I tried to squeeze that in there on Dennis, but he wouldn't have it. I'm just waiting for the Thanos snap flipper code. I know. The gavel hit my pinky finger. You bandaged that up. Splint it. You probably broke it. Sorry, Your Honor. I will concede there. And that was your pinball. It's back, everybody. Market Trance. Ladies and gentlemen. I was here last week, so it's not back from anything. But it's back with you. yeah that's like a weird demarcation no one really cares about that uh they do and while market trends is just a part of you internally as it is me i'm sorry it's imprinted on you like a baby bird yes it's a teenager now it's just the trees stop trying to hold me back dick that's what trends just said that wasn't me or my internal dialogue every time i do a podcast with you. Ah. Well, let's wrap it up there, Dennis. That's what she said. Where can people catch you between now and the next episode? You can always email me over with eclecticgamerspodcast at gmail.com or go to facebook.com slash eclecticgamerspodcast and send a message and I will get it. Oh, yeah. You guys had a good episode last week. I would suggest people go take a listen to that if you haven't already. Tony and you went over a lot of interesting video games. stuff and you took the really nice discussion point on pinbird that stood out to me i was saying it last week but that was a good one thanks see i'm good with compliments dennis yeah you're a very generous person i want you to be my executive director because you've got your shit you cannot afford me actually you probably could hypothetically let's pretty cheap let's uh let's go into discussion because i'm actually quite affordable that sounds that sounds fantastic to me what would you ever take i have a non-profit though you're a for-profit i'll make a non-profit just so that you can be a part of me more would you would you consider it oh it would be difficult to have to work for you i think what if i came into the boardroom in like a fucking segue i was like, hey, bro, want to go grab some lunch? As you're balancing my checkbooks or something. Yeah, I just see you whipping her out of the office with a little segue. One of those people. Oh, man, I have my Jordans on. Oh, is this going to happen? I see a sitcom in the making. I'm going to pitch a pilot, NBC, this fall. You can catch us both at thepinballnetwork at gmail.com. Check out all the other podcasters. We're having a lot of fun with them. or you can check myself out doing the video series straight down the middle. Email me there at sdtmpinball at gmail.com. We have a couple big reviews coming out. I believe Rick and Morty and GNR are Avengers. And a nice 2020 recap. We had a lot of fun this year, and we are very proud of our work this year. We appreciate the continued support for the Straight Down the Middle YouTube series, whether it was the GNR stuff that we did that we're super proud of or just the back and forth, the Hot Wheels reveal unboxing video, or just the this or that. We did a lot of work this year. I have done a lot of work. Yep, yep, yep, and I'm having fun doing it. You know, for the video thing on the Twippies, I wrote in that news station that covered that other TNR. Son of a bitch. We've sold millions of dollars to them. We've earned them millions of dollars. I'm kidding. I'm too lazy to actually type something in that wasn't in the drop down It would have been clever though It would have I wish I had come up with it at the time We were the only promo We just now thought of how much it would hurt you It's almost right promo bro We basically made the pen Yeah We just handed them millions Did you see our smoke Did you see our fog We helped too damn it And if you're ready to buy We still have time What is today It's the 7th It's actually the 6th Don't let them know the secrets I'll keep it close The 7th We still believe it or not I have time if you contact me I will get you that pinball machine you've been wanting And look here's the secret Here's what us pinball enthusiasts do We rationalize and tell ourselves We deserve something nice for Christmas Because we always get shit from our spouses Or from family Buy yourself something nice the machine showcase this week is the avengers pro and you don't have to wait for it it's in stock they call flipping out flipping fast for a reason i'm impatient yeah i'm impatient as a pinhead so i make sure people get their games liggity split whoa that's right turn that from in stock to in your stocking boom see as executive director those are the kind of things that you could do. That was really good. And I might use that if you don't mind. That's fine. Thank you. TMNT Premium in stock. Batman 66 in stock. I have stockpiled as much as I could for all of you guys. Hot Wheels in stock. Star Wars Comic Pros in stock. Star Wars The Pin, both original and comic in stock. MMR accessories, we still got those. Avengers Topper, I think I can still get you one. Guardians Pros in stock. JP Pro is coming very, very soon. I might have a spot or two left for the upcoming run. Get on that now. Just don't stream it. Yeah. For God's sakes, don't stream it. Attack from Mars Special Edition and Monster Bash Special Edition with that big-ass beautiful display in stock and more. Just phone us at 812-457-9711 or email me at Zach, Z-A-C-H, at flip, the letter in, out, pinball.com or flippingoutpinball.com. I love you guys. Thanks for the support this year. And bye, bye, bye. Bye, bye, bye. Last week at TPN, we had Jesse J's Pinball Adventures. where Ryan sees in jail again. I have this downloaded, but I haven't started it yet. It's after SAPS. It's after SAPS. I don't know if there's a contract dispute. Something happened. Uh-oh. Yeah. Well, you know, Ryan did ask me to do a five-minute segment, which turned into a 30-minute segment on DLC and pinball. That was really good. I hope I didn't get him in trouble. Did that feel comfortable? You guys seemed like you did very well together. I mean, for me, it was right after work, like three minutes after work, so I was tired. And when I'm tired, I'm probably a little looser with my discussions. So I should get you on a Monday afternoon. Jesse Ray's Pinball Adventure, and as we were talking about before, the Josh Sharpe interview on Final Round. Yeah, I heard that one. That's really good. Yeah, that was good. There needs to be like a couple awards yearly for just like an outstanding piece of podcast, an episode. That would be a good one. Hmm, that would be interesting. Chronicles could do well in that, too. Speaking of, I think we are getting a tease from Chronicles about a possible episode before Christmas. There was a tease. I was surprised. Hmm. I don't know what they're doing. They don't normally tease like that. They don't, but David Denny's putting himself out there. That's what he does, I guess. Poor Ron. I hope he knows that there's a teased episode before Christmas. Like, shit, I was playing Star Wars. Leave me alone. I do need to send you something for Christmas. Do you want to do a gray elephant or a white elephant or whatever the elephant is? Oh, God. It's been years since I've done one of those. We should do an elephant. You can be my little elephant. That's creepy. It's endearing to me. All right, let's call it a day, Dennis. Lock up whenever you leave. And until next week, for Dennis Creasel, I'm Zach Minney. And remember to stay tuned and monitor the social media for Jersey Jack Pinball to see when Croods 2, the pinball, is coming to a dealer near you. and always practice safe pinball. And Dennis, would you just take a look at me now? Up. So long, everybody. How can I just let you walk away? Just let you leave without a trace? I have an interesting work story that I could share maybe another time. How that possibly backfired on me with someone. Really? When I started laughing manically at their misfortune. Oh, and it wasn't supposed to be laughed at? uh well i mean it was funny so okay well i mean it wasn't the misfortune like that they had misfortune that i was laughing at it was a well i guess i'll tell it now it's a quick story uh so i had a meeting scheduled it was not on like it wasn't going to be about covid it's about medicaid but it was very late in the day and they pushed it they pushed it even later okay so and i warned them okay but you guys know after four that i get like a little flippant and stuff like i don't normally you gave them that disclaimer yeah i did i love it okay and they knew from the last time we had a meeting these are like three we used to do these meetings in the morning and because of covid we're doing them in the late afternoon now like 3 30 to 4 30 but once we pass four like everything it's just all bets are off like a joke to me i whatever it's just anyway it's not Post-work creasel. That's what that is. I'm just not as professional. There's less filtering. Okay. And so we started this meeting after 4, and at about 5, we were still going. And this person who worked for the state had this just terrible situation come up where we're trying to spend a lot of federal money by the end of the year. And they got allotted almost $20 million to try and blow through. And there was a deadline. Like, all the stuff has to be in possession by December 30th. So it was a big rush. And this was to benefit local health departments, which is what I work with. But because of the time constraints, because here we are, there's less than a month to go, they're not getting the money to order themselves. The state is ordering and arranging for all the stuff just to be shipped to the health departments. Okay? So they sent out order forms so everyone could mark on a pre-approved list of stuff we knew we could get, what and how much they want of, like, hand sanitizer. Vaccine refrigerators, all that exciting stuff. A new Prius. Vehicles were discussed. Of course they were. I don't think any were ultimately known to be requiring it. In my mind, well, yeah. This state employee said she's the one who was handling all the order forms and everything. Had them in, all of that. And then she just says, we've had a big mess up. And another group at the state, another part of the agency, handled the ordering. and they did not ask for the order forms that she had gathered. Instead, they, I guess, just decided, based off of population by county, they were going to just send supplies to. For example, one of the largest counties in the state, I guess, had asked for around 70, on the order form, had asked for around 70,000 bottles of hand sanitizer. Wow. they got this is where i can stop laughing they got over 700 000 pallets upon pallets trucks full of crates they had to find a forklift and it's like and it just showed up at the health department where are they going to store it and so i felt bad for her because she's getting all of this hate but i'm laughing maniacally because i'm just envisioning a leslie nielsen movie at this point where there's filing cabinets full of hand sanitizer mothers are squirting the babies out of their arms because they're required to do 30 doses of hand sanitizer when they walk in i just have this mental image and i just i was i muted myself for a long period but by the time she paused for me to respond i was still laughing and on top of that my i think my first statement She asked, are you laughing at me? And I said, I am laughing, and I'm really glad that I am not you. Oh, wow. And I think that hurt her feelings a little bit, actually. Well, but that's in good fun. That was a good one. Well, and the other person who had organized the meeting, the next day we had another meeting. She was recounting this, and I'm stone-faced. It was like at 11 a.m. I'm stone-faced, and he sends me a private message on Zoom saying, do not laugh. That made you laugh. Which made me start to laugh. So I almost had to turn off the camera. I'm covering my mouth. Because, again, I'm holding it together really well. But then she's talking about in this other place, they got crates upon crates upon pallets of just hands up. We don't know where to store them. Help us. Where do they put it? No. We need a storage facility. I completely sympathize. No, I don't know what they're going to do. I mean, my suggestion was the state has storage. We actually have caves in Kansas where stuff like this can be stored. Caves? Literal caves. And they call them the caves. And I was like, I guess if we still have money available from CARES Act, send them UPS labels just to stick on top of the crates, tell them to leave them crated up and ship them to the caves. I don't know what else to tell you to do. And this is the irony. The people who screwed up into the orders, they're not the ones fixing this. She has to fix this, which is ridiculous. That's where the difference would be. If they worked for me, I would have said, you will fix this or you will not have a job. I'm not in the business of fixing your mistakes. I know what all the families around your negative woods are getting for Christmas. Government-funded hand sanitizer. Anyway, that's why I discourage people from taking late-day meetings with me.