Journalist Tool

Kineticist

  • HDashboard
  • IItems
  • ↓Ingest
  • SSources
  • KBeats
  • BBriefs
  • RIntel
  • QSearch
  • NName Review
  • +Health

v0.1.0

← Back to items

Ep 40: Overboard

Final Round Pinball Podcast·podcast_episode·1h 22m·analyzed·Aug 16, 2021
View original
Export .md

Analysis

claude-haiku-4-5-20251001 · $0.036

TL;DR

Keith Elwin discusses Stern's leadership changes and his design philosophy in wake of Steve Ritchie departure.

Summary

Keith Elwin, Stern Pinball designer, joins Final Round Podcast to discuss the recent departure of Steve Ritchie from Stern and its implications for the manufacturer's design pipeline. The conversation covers Keith's three released games (Iron Maiden, Avengers, Jurassic Park), his design philosophy emphasizing integrated layout-rules-theme development, tournament formats and competitive play, and production processes at Stern. The hosts and Keith reflect on the loss of Pinburgh and its impact on the competitive community.

Key Claims

  • Steve Ritchie has left Stern Pinball

    high confidence · Keith Elwin confirms 'Steve Ritchie's gone' and references personnel movements at Stern, though specific details about Ritchie's departure are not discussed beyond acknowledgment

  • Keith Elwin designed three games: Iron Maiden, Avengers, and Jurassic Park, all released from Stern

    high confidence · Keith discusses the three games he designed, their design philosophy, and their reception by the pinball community

  • Pinburgh tournament no longer exists due to IFPA/WPPR points expiration after one year

    high confidence · Keith and hosts discuss 'Pinburgh decay' where points earned at Pinburgh disappear before the next IFPA World Championship, effectively ending the tournament's value in competitive rankings

  • Keith Elwin lost motivation to compete after Pinburgh ended

    high confidence · Keith states: 'Without it, I kind of lost my drive to compete, honestly' and describes it as 'my favorite event'

  • Stern is bringing in younger designers and emphasizing knowledge transfer from experienced staff

    high confidence · Keith confirms Stern is 'trying to get them up to speed in the industry' and notes 'the revolving door, which pinball, for some reason, seems to not be so much. But I think Stern is finally doing that'

  • Keith Elwin prefers semi-flopped flippers over high-set flippers that enable backhand shots

    high confidence · Keith explains: 'I prefer the kind of semi-flopped flippers where you're shooting much more powerful shots to the sides than you are backhanding shots'

  • Rick Nagel is the primary coder responsible for implementing Keith's rule designs across all three games

    high confidence · Keith discusses his close collaboration with Rick Nagel: 'I have a really good working relationship with Rick Nagel, my coder' and later: 'That pressure is squarely on Rick Nagel's shoulders'

  • Keith Elwin can design a playfield every three months if needed, but rules development is the bottleneck

Notable Quotes

  • “Without it, I kind of lost my drive to compete, honestly.”

    Keith Elwin @ ~8:20 — Demonstrates the profound impact Pinburgh's closure had on a top competitive player; hints at broader community implications

  • “If this had happened five, six years ago, I think we would have gone, oh, it's a big move. Stern is in a really good position with designers, coders, artists, developers.”

    Marty Robbins @ ~14:00 — Frames Steve Ritchie's departure within Stern's current strength; suggests the company can absorb personnel changes without crisis

  • “Making a great pinball, that's the big difference. And I think that's where you need the passion, the experience, the nuances of knowing why a pinball machine is better than another pinball machine sitting next to it.”

    Keith Elwin @ ~17:30 — Core design philosophy statement about what separates good games from great ones; emphasizes passion and experience in design

  • “The easiest thing to do is smooth shooting, flowing fast. Those are easy. It's doing something original, unique, while incorporating some never-before-seen mechs. That's really where my job comes in.”

    Keith Elwin @ ~18:45 — Articulates intentional design philosophy of challenging conventional 'flow' game layouts; explains his differentiation strategy

  • “You have to shoot all the shots. Jurassic, for example, you got to hit all chaos at one point. You can't avoid that.”

    Marty Robbins (quoting Jack Tadman) @ ~22:30 — Identifies a key design characteristic of Keith's games that sets them apart from 'flow' games where limited shots dominate

  • “That pressure is squarely on Rick Nagel's shoulders. He's the one cranking out code 24-7 for three years straight now.”

    Keith Elwin @ ~27:45 — Reveals the intense workload on the coder; redirects credit from designer to supporting team; hints at production pace sustainability concerns

  • “I wish [the designer backs off after production]. So usually the first hundred or so of each game, pro, premium, LE, we're out on the line making sure they're getting put together right.”

Entities

Keith ElwinpersonSteve RitchiepersonRick NagelpersonRaymond DavidsonpersonCarl D'AngelopersonMarty RobbinspersonStern Pinballcompany

Signals

  • ?

    personnel_signal: Steve Ritchie has departed from Stern Pinball; Keith Elwin's office is next to Ritchie's former office, suggesting Ritchie held a senior position. The hosts frame this as 'interesting' but not crisis-level.

    high · Direct confirmation from Keith: 'So Steve Ritchie's gone.' Marty contextualizes it: 'If this had happened five, six years ago...but Stern is in a really good position with designers, coders, artists, developers.'

  • ?

    design_philosophy: Keith Elwin emphasizes simultaneous development of theme, layout, and rules as key to game success, rather than sequential handoff model. He collaborates closely with coder Rick Nagel on feasibility.

    high · Keith: 'I have a really good working relationship with Rick Nagel, my coder. I'll go over to him when I'm designing a game. I'll say, hey, I want this to do that. Is this possible?'

  • ?

    gameplay_signal: Keith intentionally avoids simple 'flow' layouts (7-shot fan patterns) as they are too easy; he prefers original, asymmetrical designs that force players to engage all playfield areas.

    high · Keith: 'The easiest thing to do is smooth shooting, flowing fast...It's doing something original, unique, while incorporating some never-before-seen mechs. That's really where my job comes in.'

  • ?

    community_signal: Pinburgh's closure has had significant emotional and competitive impact on top players; Keith Elwin explicitly lost motivation to compete after the tournament ended. IFPA's one-year point expiration makes historic wins less valuable.

    high · Keith: 'Without it, I kind of lost my drive to compete, honestly...It was my favorite event.' Discussion of 'Pinburgh decay' where points awarded at major tournament expire before next World Championship.

Transcript

groq_whisper · $0.246

0:00
The Pinball Network is online. Launching final round pinball podcast. It's player versus player and player versus machine. Welcome to the final round.
0:59
already. We've had two weeks off. There's been a lot going on in pinball. I cannot believe the shake-up, but we'll get to that later. Quickly, what do you think of that? What's happened in the last two weeks? Ah, you know, we will get to that. It's interesting, is what I would say, Jeff. Interesting. What's interesting? Shake-ups. Oh, I was talking about the fact that you wanted Keith Elwin dead. You went to Indus the first time. You saw Keith and then Carl. You could only save one of them gun to your head give me the answer is it carl or is it keith yeah sorry did i have to pause was there supposed to be some mood music before i said carl carl so let's crack that egg open a little why do you hate keith elwynn why do you wish him dead go on it's true i do it's absolutely true if i like carl i therefore must hate keith that's how it works because you cannot stand his very breath. I can't stand the sound of his name. When people mention it, I go, that man is dead to me.
2:05
And he joins us right now. Can you believe what he said last week on the episode? That's all I've heard in pinball news is that how could Marty want this man who won Pinberg wearing a head-to-head T-shirt wanting you dead because of his love for Carl D'Angelo? I mean, it's Carl. Come on. Right. Thank you. That's it? You're taking a bullet for Carl? I can't think of anything bad to say about Carl, so I will take this bullet. Yeah, and so you should. I mean, admittedly, I was given a binary situation, Carl survives, you die. I personally, if I was given another option, I would say maybe brutally maim you. Take a limb off, at least. But not death, but I wasn't given that option. Yeah, you know, us California guys, yeah, look out for each other. Yeah, exactly. You know what, Keith? We set up the ground rules before we started, and Marty was adamant. Somebody lives, somebody dies. I don't want to have more than one. I hate all people. I'm just telling you, those were his words. You know, Carl's married to a kid. Come on, I'm expendable. Well, that is also true. And you know what? Your tournament days are over, so, you know. This is true. You know, your best games are behind you. You know, expendable.

medium confidence · Keith states 'I can probably design a play field every three months if needed' but acknowledges 'Rules, honestly' takes much longer

  • Most game changes and score balancing happen one month before release

    high confidence · Keith explains: 'Right before release. That's when I do all the score balancing, the pacing, the difficulty settings'

  • Avengers game was designed on a tight schedule with help from Raymond Davidson for rules completion

    high confidence · Keith: 'Avengers was a case where that game was on a tight schedule, so I kind of had a framework, and when we hired Raymond Davidson, I was so ecstatic'

    • Keith Elwin @ ~31:00 — Shows hands-on involvement in manufacturing quality control; contrasts with director/theater analogy about creative backing off

  • “When they first get on the line, they have no idea what they're supposed to be dialing in and what they're supposed to be checking, so it's up to me and the engineer to guide them.”

    Marty Robbins @ ~33:15 — Emphasizes ongoing designer involvement in training production staff; illustrates knowledge transfer in action

    • Iron Maiden
    game
    Avengersgame
    Jurassic Parkgame
    Pinburghevent
    IFPAorganization
    Haggis Pinballcompany
    Jack Tadmanperson
    Harrisonperson
    Led Zeppelingame
    Cabin Fevervenue
    Keltergame
    Borgperson
    Eddieperson
    Gomezperson
    Georgeperson
    Final Round Pinball Podcastmedia
    Jim Balsitaperson
    Jim Del Citoperson
    ?

    manufacturing_signal: Keith Elwin personally oversees first 100 units of each game variant (Pro, Premium, LE) to ensure assembly quality; designer involvement in production extends beyond initial prototyping.

    high · Keith: 'Usually the first hundred or so of each game, pro, premium, LE, we're out on the line making sure they're getting put together right.'

  • ?

    design_innovation: Keith Elwin and several other Stern designers (Borg, Gomez) prefer semi-flopped (lower-set) flippers over high-set flippers; this affects playfield shot accessibility and game feel.

    high · Keith: 'Both myself, Borg, and Gomez, we kind of prefer the kind of semi-flopped flippers where you're shooting much more powerful shots to the sides than you are backhanding shots.'

  • ?

    personnel_signal: Stern is emphasizing knowledge transfer and training of younger designers, representing a shift from previous industry practice where experienced designers sometimes didn't mentor successors.

    medium · Keith: 'We can bring in some new younger guys and try to get them up to speed in the industry. It's always a revolving door, which pinball, for some reason, seems to not be so much. But I think Stern is finally doing that.'

  • ?

    product_launch: Haggis Pinball's 'Kelter' game is currently in full production and being delivered; Marty Robbins is actively playtesting and setup-dialing games during early production run.

    high · Marty: 'Kelter are going out the door at the moment we're full-on in production they're being delivered and i'm spending a lot of my time actually just dialing in the games'

  • ?

    business_signal: Rick Nagel (coder for Keith's games) is described as working '24-7 for three years straight'; Keith suggests he could design a playfield every 3 months but rules/code is the bottleneck.

    high · Keith: 'That pressure is squarely on Rick Nagel's shoulders. He's the one cranking out code 24-7 for three years straight now...I can probably design a play field every three months if needed.'

  • ?

    design_philosophy: Keith does most intensive game tuning and score balancing one month before release; early prototype design may be mocked up in plywood to test feasibility before committing to engineering.

    high · Keith: 'Right before release. That's when I do all the score balancing, the pacing, the difficulty settings...Harrison and I, my engineer, we built something and it's like, yeah, this is a little sketchy. We need to revisit this in a couple of years.'

  • ?

    competitive_signal: IFPA WPPR points system has a one-year expiration window; this means Pinburgh winners' points evaporate before the next World Championship, significantly reducing the tournament's strategic value for competitive ranking.

    high · Keith: 'All Pinburgh points will be gone [by next World Championship]. That's a big loss. I know how much that event meant to you.' Discussion of 'Pinburgh decay.'

  • ?

    industry_signal: Stern's ability to absorb Steve Ritchie's departure is viewed positively; the company has depth in design, code, art, and manufacturing that allows it to handle key personnel changes without crisis.

    medium · Marty: 'Stern is in a really good position with designers, coders, artists, developers. And manufacturing...all the pillars are there for you guys to still be successful.'

    • 3:20
    Hold on a second. On that note, first of all, by the way, when you were knocking me for remembering 40, our guest also has trouble remembering 40, don't you, Keith? Yeah, it seems like a lifetime ago. So welcome to the Seniors Podcast here. Your tournament day is being over. What is over, and especially by the time it matters for something like World Championship, the Pinberg decay. Now, what I mean by that is anybody who did very well at Pinberg, and we're talking the Keith Elwins, the Raymond Davidsons, Escher Lefkoffs, Carl DeAngelo, all these wonderful players. Josh, did he ever win it? No, he was close. Anyway, those people have all watched their Whopper points just disappear and disappear. And by the time the Whoppers kind of really matter for the next IFPA World Championship, all Pinnberg points will be gone. That's a big loss. I know how much that event meant to you. And it's just every time we get to this anniversary, it's a sad reminder of how great that tournament was. Yeah, I mean, I'm still sad. Definitely my favorite event. And without it, I kind of lost my drive to compete, honestly. that's that's pretty full-on but i can i can understand it it meant so much to so many people obviously you were very successful there time and time again but also it was a really good meeting of a lot of people a thousand obviously and supporters so you do miss that yearly reunion i guess yeah yeah it's not it's not that anything to do with success it was people you see once a year. It was pretty much a four-day party. The tournament was structured so you know when you had breaks so you can plan, meet different people, different things. It was just such a great event. I think one of my favorite things about the event, certainly the incredible organization that Doug, Elizabeth, I'm forgetting names, of course, Fred Cochran, the Rapogles, the Hendricks, all these wonderful people that give up a lot of their own time to make this happen. that is very very special and keith you and i have talked off air at tournaments and things like that's about about what makes tournaments so special and likable and it's obviously the social aspect that we just talked about but really it is that organization you just said it you know when you're going to play there's not a lot of waiting around there's it's so well timed i think that's something we take for granted when we go to all these different tournaments as they're opening up right now is that was a tight run machine oh yeah it was just so well executed and even if you know one group ran late it rarely affected everything the next round everything was anticipated it was just so well run yeah and you say that well anticipated like every if there was going to be a stuff up they knew how to deal with an advance they'd obviously done some serious risk planning to know everything that could go wrong and what they would do and it just kept running no matter what. And, you know, I run a tournament. It's obviously nowhere near as big. And the one thing I can be guaranteed with a tournament that I run, and I would say most tournaments, is timing. Timing just can get blown out so quickly. Even like a stuck ball or an adjudication can just delay things. But with Pinberg, with a thousand people and how many groups there were, it just ran. It did. It was amazing. And I miss it so much. yeah yeah hey keith i know you were an operator did you ever run tournaments yourself i've actually never known you to run a tournament but i've also never been in california where you probably did a lot of that stuff what was your experience doing that uh much smaller scale than pinbird i used to run tournaments at uh 82 in la and high dive in san diego and it was you know just casual one day match play stuff it was never the super dedicated multi-day tournaments like the modern tournament director's run, which is much more involved, obviously. So mine is much more casual. You mentioned match play. Was that the go-to format? I mean, back then, probably that was the main one. But now there are things like flip frenzies and, I don't know, critical hits and all kinds of different things you can do, pin golf. Was it always match play for you? Pretty much. Sometimes we'd have a golf or bowling special, but usually it was just a match play because that's easiest. Is it your favorite format, though? To play? Yeah, to compete in.
    7:37
    Yeah, I think it is. I much prefer it just a direct head-to-head match play over the groupings and the finals where you're playing against four other people, kind of banking on other people to help you out. I much prefer the match play head-to-head stuff. Now, I thought you might like something like Indisc where they use the Papa Ticket because it really highlights excellent players and you probably don't have to play as many games because you're probably going to get it on that card. Whereas a Pump and Dump, even chumps like me can feed it and feed it and feed it and finally get lucky once in a while and make the playoffs. Where something like the Ticket and the old Papa Tournament itself, you've got to be good. Yeah. You know, I used to really love that format back in the day, but then now it's just so much pressure. And you like in-disc, there's just so many people that are vying for so few spots that it was just, oh, I messed up one game. I was just trash and start over. So there's a downside to it. Definitely a reward skill, but I think it'd be nicer if there was obviously they need the money to build up the pod. It would be nicer if there was a limit to how many entries you could have and just force you to play out three or entries rather than just one, trash the ticket, start over. When you're qualifying, are you trying to qualify at the top or are you just happy to get in the top 32 or whatever it is and then just have the rest of the day off? It would depend how confident I am on the entry. If I didn't have any really bad scores and I knew even if I don't play again, this will be like a top eight. I play for the buy more so than the top spot. So top eight or top four, whatever the buy was, that would be my goal. I've seen you drive a few buses, which means for those listening, you've been the top qualifier, which means you get to pick maybe the bank of games, the game selection, the order, whatever you really choose. I've also seen you in that bus driver role where you defer several times. And I guess you do that to basically go last and see what you have to beat as opposed to I'm really, really strong on this game. I'll pick that game knowing, okay, I've got to go first on it. Is there a preference or does it really depend on the games and the people you're playing? Well, I think what you're referring to is Pinbird where you cannot pick the same bank twice in a row or twice. I can't remember. Well, even in-disc you can't pick the same games. Yeah, yeah. So you definitely want to not use up your picks early on. So that would often be when I defer, and that's usually when I end up playing Safecracker and crap like that. But, you know, it's all part of the fun. I still remember at Indisc when you were there and you did qualify first, so you got to take a game out and put one in. What was that? Or you probably had to do that many times. That's brilliant. I think Jim Del Cito came up with that, where if Topsy didn't like one of the games in the bank, they could replace it with something from Classics. So usually I would take out Carl D'Angelo's Lord of the Rings because he had no in lanes and two-inch flippers. Yeah, they had lightning flippers on it. This game was just ridiculously hard. It was like, yeah, I don't want to play this. I think that was the one that you took out. Marty and I talked about some games you just loathe playing. I'm not going to say them because I don't want to offend anybody. I know some of the games you can't stand. How do you get through that mindset, especially like a flip frenzy where you really have no choice of what you're playing? You're in a tournament and you're like, this game comes up. I'm defeated before I even play. I know what to do. I just don't have fun playing the game. How do you get through this? Help the peons like myself. Well, you know what? My mindset is you can take the worst pin moments you've ever made, put it in a tournament environment, and all of a sudden it becomes fun because you're just looking for the pulling exploits at that point. So when it comes to a tournament, yeah, obviously I don't have my favorite games, but it can still be fun no matter what. I mean, I've played some pretty bad games. Jim Balsita is known for throwing in the most oddball Gottlieb game you've never seen before, like Rescue 911. I mean, that game is just awful, but it was kind of fun just finding the exploit and then executing on it and then challenging everyone else to do the same. So tell me the fun exploits in Thunderbirds. Go. Thunderbirds? I don't know. I can't say I've ever played it.
    11:53
    Oh, you're missing out. Marty's got it at his house now. No, when he says can't say means I won't say that I've played it. Do you think he's played it? Maybe. Maybe a flip. You've never flipped it, Keith, have you?
    12:08
    Well, if I did, it had to have been a long time ago. Yeah, no, I don't have one. He's being funny. I don't have one. I would never have one. But we're trying to get one at his place because he's got the room for games. And he said, I'll take any game, even Thunderbirds. So please, dear God, anybody in Australia, ship him a Thunder Turds. Yeah, it's just like a really bad movie in the 80s. It's now classic gold. I mean, I'm sure someday that game will be the same way. Yeah, I agree with you, but it's terrible. Okay, we're beating around the bush. There's bigger fish to fry here, okay? Keith, we have to know what's going on at Stern Pinball, and what I'm specifically talking about is who got Steve's office.
    12:49
    I think our head engineer got it. What? There's got to be dibs. You're up on the totem pole? Yeah, he's pretty high up there. Steve's office is next to my office, and it was nice because I can play the game at any volume, and he wouldn't notice where I'm from.
    13:07
    Wow. I'm not going to ask you to comment on that, but the shakeup, what have you read? What are people saying that you think is just way off when they're talking about Stern and that and Lyman and this and that? Are people way off? I mean, it's just business. Is that all it is? Yeah, I think so. Someone's not happy. We're certainly not going to wish ill will on them or anything. If they want to go somewhere else, that's fine. Look, Jeff asked before, what do I think? And I said, it's interesting. Here's why I think it's interesting. If this had happened five, six years ago, I think we would have gone, oh, it's a big move. Stern is in a really good position with designers, coders, artists, developers. And manufacturing. And manufacturing, obviously. I think you're in a good position where something like that can happen. People wish somebody well. You know, it's a change. But all the pillars are there for you guys to still be successful, right? Oh, yeah. If anything, you know, we can bring in some new younger guys and, you know, try to get them up to speed in the industry. It's always a revolving door, which pinball, for some reason, seems to not be so much. But I think Stern is finally doing that. they have for the past few years. So I actually had this conversation internally here at Haggis. I'm in the office again. And the key that we were sort of talking about is transferable skills. I made an uneducated comment. It was really a question around, does the old guard really spend a lot of time training the new guard? Because I've certainly known interactions with you and people that work with you that you do impart a lot of knowledge to people around you as well. Do you think that's part of the new Stern model? Yeah, absolutely. And I think also part of the new Stern model is getting people who actually play pinball, designing the games, which, you know, for the longest time, especially, you know, the Valley Williams, you talk to those guys. Oh, what's your favorite game? Oh, I don't have one. Oh, what games do you have? None. And it was just like, oh. You know, I always found that to be really weird because I think obviously you can do the job, not being a huge fan of pinball, but I think it helps if you're passionate and at least, you know, have a few games. I know George has a bunch of games. I have a bunch of games. I know Bargy has a bunch of games. So I think it's important to be passionate and love the game in order to bring out the best in yourself and the product. Someone did say, I won't mention who it is, but someone said making pinball is easy. I can't remember who it was. And I would echo making a pinball machine, it's obviously it's not easy, but you can make a pinball. Making a great pinball, that's the big difference. And I think that's where you need the passion, the experience, the nuances of knowing why a pinball machine is better than another pinball machine sitting next to it. Yeah, one of the key things, and I see this all the time, where people, I love games with flow and smooth shots. Well, the irony is that's actually the easiest design in the world. That's a seven-shot fan layout. But me, personally, I'm kind of sick of that design. So I try to do things a little differently. And, you know, I think mostly it's worked. There's been a couple shots I'd like to redo if I had to do it over. But it's the hardest thing. The easiest thing to do is smooth shooting, flowing fast. Those are easy. It's doing something original, unique, while incorporating some never-before-seen mechs. That's really where my job comes in. Otherwise, you can pretty much just copy and paste any previous layout. And people will still buy it because that's how they love the games to shoot. But me personally, I'm looking to try to do something a little different. So then looking back at the three games that you've released, and you're right in that there is something really unique in each of those games that takes a shot layout that we're familiar with but adds some twisted elements to it. Of the three titles, what do you think, how would you rate them in your head as far as how successful they have been in what you wanted to deliver and design? They're all their own unique thing. Iron Maiden I made specifically to be kind of a fast game, but not terribly dreamy or hard. There's really no sucker shots on that game. You know, I wanted it shot through the pops. I wanted it to be a ramp on that game. That game pretty much came out exactly the way I wanted it to. The mini loop was a little hard, but, you know, when you can get it going, it's pretty fun. Avengers I was going for more kind of easier shooting games because I got so many complaints on Jurassic Park so Avengers I kind of made here's kind of a classic shot layout you're used to but the shots don't go necessarily where you think they're going to go so that's what kind of I experimented there Jurassic Park I just was like hey this is a layout I want to do and I wanted to have shots off to the sides and the helicopter ramp you know that's all stuff I just thought of and And I thought it worked pretty well. Obviously, if I could redo that O shot and make it a little wider, maybe put a blue nub there or something, I would have done that. But I've actually really – that's the only game I own of the three, so that's kind of my favorite. Jack Tadman, who once won Intergalactic, and he's a great Canadian player, a great world player too, he and I were playing a bunch of Jurassic Park last Friday at Cabin Fever in Toronto. And we were just talking about Keith games, and I knew you were coming on the program and I just said to Jack, I said, what I love about all Keith's games, you have to shoot all the shots. Jurassic, for example, you got to hit all chaos at one point. You can't avoid that. You got to get in the pops. You've got to hit the upper loop, the side shot. You've got to hit everything in that. You've got to hit the control room. You've got to hit the Raptor pit. There are a lot of games and you and I were kind of hinting towards a few of them where the flow games and whatnot, where you can play the entire game with maybe three shots and not have to hit anything else, maybe because of code, maybe because of points. You can't do that on a Keith Elwin game, and that's what I admire, and I think that's a big focus of what you do. And I was saying to Jack, too, I don't know if you can do it on Jurassic. I'm trying to think where you can do it. I mean, obviously you can on Iron Maiden, but Jurassic, I'm trying to think of a shot you can successfully backhand. Maybe the Raptor Pit, depending on which model you've got, but there's not a lot of backhandable shots, and certainly on the fly, like repeatable ramps kind of thing. I hate flippers. I know you do. I love it. The only thing I hate more than that are the plastic inlanes. And you hate it because it's chopping wood, correct? I don't like the way it feels. To me, the flippers that are lined high in order to backhand shots, I just don't like the way they feel. To me, both myself, Borg, and Gomez, we kind of prefer the kind of semi-flopped flippers where you're shooting much more powerful shots to the sides than you are backhanding shots. That's just my personal preference. Obviously some people like the higher set flippers where you can backhand everything but I never been a fan of that Okay note to self remove repeatable shots from my games Okay, cool, got that. Got it, good, good. Thank you. Yep, hates them is actually what he said. Hates them. Hates them, hates everything that I'm going to do. Yep, cool, I get it. Now you wonder why I want you dead, right?
    20:53
    If you listen to the last time Keith was on this program, He was talking about every game will always have a spinner. And I assume when he's talking about spinner, I think he's in love with those big old Gottlieb spinners like on Dragon or Sinbad, the ones that spin maybe two or three times. The classic plastic spinners, yeah. Oh, God, do they suck. I was playing Gottlieb Dragon. Not that garbage one, but the actual Gottlieb one. I think there's a big right orbit shot or whatever, ABCD across the top. And I was like, okay, this increases the spinner. I'm like, that spinner? I'm not even going anywhere near that piece of crap. That thing isn't ripping at all. Yeah, very unsatisfying. Very unsatisfying. So going back to that point that Jeff was saying about the games that you have where you play around the table, I've made this comment, obviously, we talk about you all the time behind your back, Keith. I'm sure you expect that by now. But people have been trying to understand why you've had three really successful titles that are still at the top of the charts on Pinside. And my take has always been that I felt you have been instrumental in developing the game with theme, layout and rules framework. So therefore, you have this integration that's happening all at the same time as opposed to doing a layout, giving it to somebody else and saying, here, now make a rule set out of this. Would you agree that that's probably the secret source of yours? I think it definitely helps, especially when it comes to the toys. Yeah, a lot of times the game designers will put on a layout and throw a bunch of inserts out there, and then it's up to the programmer to figure out what to do with those inserts and what to do with the rules. So, yeah, I have a really good working relationship with Rick Nagel, my coder. So, you know, I'll go over to him when I'm designing a game. I'll say, hey, you know, I want this to do that. is this possible? And he's like, oh yeah, no problem. So I'll go ahead and keep that design. If it's something he said, I don't know if I can consistently get that to do that or something, then I won't do it. There was something I was going to do on Avengers with Thor that I ended up just scrapping because it just wasn't going to work very well. And he didn't want to risk it, so we ended up scrapping that. And that all happened early on just from, hey, I have an idea for this. This is what I wanted to do. And he's like, well, I don't know. So, yeah, we kind of scrapped that. Do you ever get to a stage where you go, well, can we just, you know, build it or stick it on a white wood and see if it's going to work? Or is it scrapped even before it gets to the physical stage? I think Harrison and I, my engineer, we built something and it's like, yeah, this is a little sketchy. We need to revisit this in a couple of years. So, yeah, it helps. Just grab a piece of plywood, mock something up, and you can get a good idea if it's feasible or not. So Steve Ritchie's gone. You've got Borg. You've got Eddie. You've got Gomez if he wants to do another game, which I hope he does, yourself. And the way you've been turning them out annually, I'm sure you can keep up the workload. You said maybe bring in some new people. So who knows? There might be another designer coming soon. But is there more pressure on you now because you've had three successful games, because there are less people currently making games, current designers, and you've kind of set this standard after three games? I know you've got the other one in the works, and we'll be seeing that hopefully soon, but that's a lot of pressure for someone to have that kind of high-level expectation. That pressure is squarely on Rick Nagel's shoulders. He's the one cranking out code 24-7 for three years straight now. So, yeah, I mean, thanks for the compliments, but that's more on my team than myself. I can probably design a play field every three months if needed, But those are the guys that actually have to do the engineering and programming of this stuff, and that's where the time-consuming stuff comes in. Okay, so you said you can design a game every three months, but because you're the person behind the rules, does it take you longer to come up with the rules or the design? Rules, honestly. I mean, I'll have like a skeleton rule set that I have in mind, and then I'll start filling it in from there. Avengers was a case where that game was on a tight schedule, so I kind of had a framework, and when we hired Raymond Davidson, I was so ecstatic. I was like, yes, please help me fill out the rest of these rules because I don't have time for this. So, yeah, he came on board. He was a big help at getting that game out the door at 1.0. So it definitely is – it does rack your brain trying to figure out how to balance the game and keep everything going, yet keep the pace going. Sometimes you need to flip it for a while before you figure out everything, but generally I have a skeleton framework in place right when I'm designing the game. At what stage of the process do you make the most changes?
    25:50
    Right before release. That's when I do all the score balancing, the pacing, the difficulty settings. All that stuff is probably like a month before release. Would that be then your busiest time? Well, it is regardless, but yes. What's it like for you in the cycle of the game when a game first comes out? So, okay, we're going to see the stream. It's going to go to production. I assume at that point you're on your next game, but you're still watching for bugs and this and that and manufacturing, production, all those kind of things. And you can probably tell us there were probably some production changes, too, when Avengers came out with the premium and LEs with the subways and things. We talked about Led Zeppelin. They changed the kind of bracket on electric magic. I think there were some things done on Avengers after the first run, correct? Correct. A lot of that falls on the engineers. So in this case, Harrison would grab whatever they're having an issue with. He'll grab the part. He'll grab me. And he's like, hey, this is the problem. I think this will fix it. Are you okay with this? And I basically just say, yep. Or nope, that looks terrible. It's something we'll do together. It's obviously not the most convenient, but it's better to catch it early than ship 1,500 games out or whatever with this problem. So, yeah. I guess what I'm trying to compare it to, for those people that have maybe ever been in theater, they do all these rehearsals, and once the production starts, opening night is this night, the director then backs off. They have nothing to do with it. And the show may run for months and whatnot, but the director is out of it at that point. So is that kind of the same for you as the designer? Once it hits production, it's now up to the engineers? Not entirely. I wish. So usually the first hundred or so of each game, pro, premium, LE, we're out on the line making sure they're getting put together right. And then after that, they pretty much have it down. And then I can start focusing on doing CAD work for my next game or rule structure, whatever it is I'm working on. Okay. Marty, you still there? I am. Just take a minute. Well, look, I took notes last time I spoke to you. You just didn't know. every single designer that's been on this show i have been taking notes don't you worry about that no but it's actually it's interesting you should say that because we are kelter are going out the door at the moment we're full-on in production they're being delivered and i'm spending a lot of my time actually just dialing in the games and play testing them and just making sure that they go out perfect until that time where I go, right, everybody, you know how I want these games set up. Go crazy and I can back off. Yeah, I mean, you've got to train these guys. Okay, this spotlight highlights this, this spotlight highlights that, and obviously they do this for a living, so they'll pick it up pretty quick, but when they first get on the line, they have no idea what they're supposed to be dialing in and what they're supposed to be checking, so it's up to me and the engineer to guide them, and then once we feel like they're, all right, they got it, we can start working on the next game. You produce a high volume of games there, and the manufacturing at Stern is top-notch. You can't be playtesting these games when they come off the line, or the first batch, maybe a few of them? What kind of playtesting is done on them? I don't know when that stops in the manufacturing process. Well, we have dedicated playtesters in Final, but then, like I said, if it's the first 100 games or so, then either myself or the engineer will play a glass off. not a full game, but we'll shoot every shot, make sure everything's working, make sure everything's dialed in the way it should be. And then if there's something that's not, then we'll point it out and then they'll kick the game back and take care of what needs to be taken care of. Yep. Yeah. Very familiar with that process. You don't do the little tweaks yourself? Yeah, I do. I do. But because I want to show people that are doing the final assembly what they need to do, I do what I can. I get them to do it so they know each of the iterations that need to happen on future machines. Oh, yeah. That's good. Yeah. The Delegator. Well, I've got other things to work on, as I'm sure Keith does as well. You know, I've got to get other games out. So we are not a team of many designers.
    30:10
    So, you know, time is really interesting here because of the size that we are, that you can get pulled off to do other things for a couple of days a week and then have to go back to design. So it's different. Hey, Marty, as you're there at Haggis Pinball, where does doing the final round podcast fall on your priority list? I'm asking for a co-host. So I'm looking around because I'm just trying to see if there's anything. So I said to Damien, hey, Damien, I hope you don't mind, but I kind of need to do the podcast today. It's going to be at 10 a.m., but it is Keith Elwin. so let's rack that up as research. And he went, yep, go for it.
    30:52
    So there you go. That's how I justify it. So what are you going to do when we bring on Ryan C? Damien's going to go, fuck him. Well, he's a customer. So that's how I can justify that one. I miss you guys. Almost dusted off my shirt.
    31:08
    Well, we are going to do, I think, we are going to do our annual Christmas special. So at least you got the bonus episode last year. Oh, okay. Obviously, you didn't hear that.
    31:22
    Missed it, obviously. I miss them too, Keith. That's why we bring on Ryan every five or six shows too, because you won't find a bigger fan of Head to Head than myself. So this is the closest I can get to it on a semi-monthly basis, and then bringing on Ryan. So yeah, I'm right there with you. I think a lot of people are too. I say this all the time. I don't miss it because I still speak to Ryan. It's everybody else that misses it.
    31:48
    Just turn on record. That's probably what it is. I mean, we still do have very hilarious and extremely inappropriate and puerile conversations. But you're right. We probably just need to record it. Do it. Yeah, do it. For sure. Okay. So, Keith, we know that you're busy. You know that I don't ask about anything upcoming. But let's just talk about some of the rumors that people are saying. Not myself, not Marty. And I'm going to be specific. I'm going to let you address some of the things you've heard from people. Because other podcasters, other streamers, they'll all speculate, Keith's got the next game. Or it's going to be this. Or, you know what, that's fine. It may be true. It may not be true. No one knew about Avengers. That came out of nowhere. So the rumors were all bullshit back then. So what do you think of this when you see people? I mean, is it just they're looking for something to talk about? It's fodder? It's some sort of content for podcasts? What do you think of all this? Yeah, I think it's content for podcasts. 100%. Well, it's not just podcasts. I mean, if you go to Pinside, there's a lot of people that speculate, and they are not on a podcast. But before you were designing games, were you a speculator as well, or did you not care and were just happy with whatever came out and were pleasantly surprised? I remember when The Stern Pirates of the Caribbean Was the next rumored game And it was delayed by months And months and everyone was just On edge waiting to see this thing Everyone was so excited It was just It was incredible the amount of excitement And then there was like when Mustang came out Nobody saw that coming it just dropped It was like extreme both ends of that And you know I don't care It's fun both ways It's fun to get excited for a new game But, man, with all the supply chain issues, I don't think any manufacturer can promise any game at any time these days. It's that bad. I would assume so. I mean, in my line of work in radio advertising, I'm seeing it in all different fields. So it's not just pinball, but it's scary to hear you say that, but I guess it's the truth. I guess you know that as well too, Marty. Yeah, it's bad. As Keith said, it's bad, and it's challenging. and I'm probably speaking on your behalf. You can confirm or deny as much as you like. What it does is it throws all your planning out. You cannot be guaranteed of any milestones or you can't be guaranteed of any costs as well because it's all just wildly fluctuating. Yeah, 100%. Well, I know you have to come in at a certain bill of materials, but that number might change by the time you actually get to manufacturing. You know what? It normally does anyway, But yeah, now it's just fluctuating everywhere. It's really tough. Tough year to be a pinball manufacturer. So does it make it harder for you, given that you are doing more unique things in your machine? I know that it's not binary, Ryan. It's not ones and zeros. But I'm not saying that just because you put different things in your machine, nobody else is. But does it mean that you might feel a little bit restricted when it comes to creativity? because just sourcing unique parts is much harder? You know, it's not so much unique parts. It's just, you know, steel, wood. It's just all the common stuff is just really hard to come by now. So I don't think anything unique is being affected anymore than just anything common, like the wood for the cabinets, the playfields, the ball guides. Everything is just fluctuating all over the place right now. We had Roger Sharp on last week, and we were talking about the marketplace and how games without titles, without visuals, without any kind of assets, maybe even in the game, doesn't matter. You put a limited edition on it and they sell. So it's so funny because Stern has all these great licenses. And I said to Roger, do you even need the good license anymore? I mean, obviously it helps. Obviously it's going to get people to put dollars in arcades. But as far as selling the machines, they're going to sell out. That's just the way the market is right now. What do you think of the way things are going, especially with limited editions. I mean, you know your next game. They're gone already. They're gone. Which sucks because I want one. I'm sure you could get one. Put your foot down. A limited edition? I gotta buy that from a distributor. No!
    36:12
    Yeah. Keith, they just had Steve Ritchie leave. If you had any kind of kahunas, you'd say, look, hey, I've been getting offers from ABCD. They're going to want to lock you in. And if it's an LE machine, throw that on the table as well. Come on. You need an agent. Maybe I'll just piece together a fake one and say it's an LE. I can't believe you will not be able to get an LE. Seriously. Come on. No game designer can buy their own LE unless they go through a distributor, yeah. Okay. Did not know that. Wow. Interesting. They're LEs, man. Can't be giving them to the game designer. Well, didn't the Metallica guys got all their own unique games? I think the Aerosmith guys did. The Zeppelin guys, they all got all their own kind of limited edition games. I'm sure Elvira Cassandra got her own thing. Can't the designer for crying out loud? Oh, we're mere peasants compared to these guys. Come on, we know that. Okay, we're going to start a petition for you, Keith. We'll do it here on final round. Help Keith get his own LE. We'll get a bunch of signatures for you. You'll have it. Don't worry. And obviously, at the same time, let's see if we can get Sandra Bullock her demolition man.
    37:19
    You know. Oh, Sandy. Good old Sandy. So, you're looking forward to your new game coming out soon? Sure, that'd be nice.
    37:31
    Do you have a say on when your game comes out, or you're given the timelines? No, it's, yeah. You basically know as soon as you start it when it's coming out, so. Okay. And I remember when I was speaking to Gary, God, this was ages ago, and it was head-to-head. I mean, he sort of mentioned that there's about an 18-month development cycle. Is that still about the case?
    37:53
    Not for me. Yeah, Keats way quicker than that. Three weeks, four weeks? I mean, that kind of fluctuates too, but that would be nice. I'm sure Rick would love that. So what's the quickest you think you could get a game from Inception to Delivery? Absolute quickest you reckon you could do one. If manufacturing wasn't a problem. Like if the line was ready to go as soon as you say start. Are you talking about strictly on a layout or with actual rules? Everything. I mean, if you want a very basic game, I'd probably do one in six months. Okay. There you go, George. Six months. Hold him to it.
    38:36
    Conditional, he gets his own LE. Yes. I think that's a fair compromise. Really do. So we were talking a little bit about it off the top about Pinberg and tournaments, and you said you lost your desire. We've seen a lot of people lose, not their desire, but their whopper points. The decay has been crazy, although this month they came back, so we'll see people kind of go up. We've seen different people at number one, Eric Stone, Peter Anderson, Raymond Davidson, who might be back on top by the time this airs. You know, there's going to be a lot of changes at the top. You've seen the changes, too, because of the Pinberg decay. I've heard you say a bunch of times, yeah, I'm kind of semi-retired. I don't know how you are. I kind of wonder, actually, if this time it's true. You know, it's just I'm 50 years old. there's a lot more to life. I pretty much was playing competitive pinball for 20-something years, using all my vacation time for it and everything. And it just reaches a point where you're just like, there's a lot of other things to do out there. So I'm perfectly fine going to a handful of tournaments I do like a year without chasing the Whopper Dragons. So I'm fine with it. Don't really care about my ranking anymore. I have no idea what I even ranked. but I'm assuming if Pimber dropped out it's probably not so good anymore. Yeah, 12th. Oh, wow. Yeah, I looked it up before. So, I mean, that's still... Considering you really haven't been playing many tournaments to still be 12, pretty good. I can retire with a winning record against everyone, right? Yes.
    40:07
    Keith, you did mention something. You take a lot of vacation time and if that's all it is, standing around on a pinball and you've done it for years. It is kind of a question people would ask, and only you can know what it's like. What else do you have to prove? What else is there to do? Do it again? I mean, maybe if there's something new that comes along, that might be enticing. But you've won the biggest tournaments in the world. You've been the top player in the world. Now your full-time job is designing these great games which you're excelling at. And I remember Josh and I, I think it was right when Jurassic Park came out, we said, in 10 years from now, will we be talking about Keith Elwin as the greatest player ever or the greatest designer ever. And I thought it was premature to say designer, but I think that's where you're headed. You're more interested in that than certainly playing. Absolutely, yeah. I'd much rather focus on designing right now because yeah like I said I did that for a little over 20 almost 25 years I going to every tournament and yeah I ready for something different So when it comes to tournaments, you said you've been playing for 20 years. So I would say when it comes to tournaments, you are a seasoned veteran. Oh, he finally says it. Both are tournaments. Yes. So how many years and how many machines do you think you need to release until you can be called a seasoned veteran of designing pinball machines? Three.
    41:36
    Three. Oh, a seasoned veteran. Come on. Well, if I can do this for 20 years, I'll be happy. How's that? Okay, there you go. 20 years. I say that because Jeff's already referred to you as a seasoned veteran, and I've just gone, come on. For designers. He is. No, he's not. Holy cow, you really do want him dead.
    41:59
    I told you, just a missing limb. I just want lots of pain, lots of blood, maybe left in a gutter somewhere. But I don't want death on him, mainly because I want more games. But you have, obviously, you're three of three, right? Three games have been fantastic. And just so you know, I obviously didn't get Avengers because it came out when I was unemployed. But of your three games, I've owned the other two, I miss them. I actually miss them. And do you know which game I miss the most? Which just bewilders me sometimes. Maiden. I miss Iron Maiden. Yeah. I have one in my office still. I won't let anyone take it.
    42:44
    I really enjoy playing that still. Would you ever want to make an Archer version of it? You know, that show's just kind of dead now, though. Yeah. Yeah, okay. I told you when we were on that I sold it because the music was just driving me absolutely insane. But there is just something about that layout that is so... It's satisfying because it is just the perfect balance of achievable shots and hard shots in exactly the right cadence. like for example Icarus is the one where you've got to do the ramps right? yeah it's really difficult you know it is, you're probably easy at it you can go oh I can do 7 combos nobody else can but it is perfectly placed where it is if you don't do it, you don't feel ripped off you just go that was a challenge move on to the rest of the game that's what I found about that game it's just the right balance between difficulty and ease. For me, Iron Maiden, I don't know why, maybe it's the theme, maybe it's the music, the speed, like Keith admitted it was kind of a fast game. It's the one I have the most fun on. I still think Jurassic is his best game. I don't have enough time on Avengers. I would say for difficulty, it would be Jurassic, then Avengers, then Iron Maiden being the least difficult. Maybe that's just because I've had that much time on it. But the thing that Iron Maiden did for me was, again, those shots we've never seen, a layout we've never seen. The fucking metal ramps. I was thrilled when I saw those come in. And that was big for you too, wasn't it, Keith? Yeah. I remember when I was designing a game and I went to George and I was like, I really hate plastic ramps. He's like, so don't use them. I can use metal. Do what you want. You're the game designer. I was like, yes.
    44:37
    But we hadn't seen that in a while. Yeah, exactly. It had been a long time. And one thing that Steve Ritchie did on T3 I remember he was bragging about metal ramps, and I remember playing T3, and I was like, wow, he's right. This is awesome. And then I think he stopped using them. He brought them back for Zeppelin, but you're right. They were gone forever, and you brought them back, and it was like, for those that weren't familiar, it's a different hit, it's a different sound, and it's way more fun. So I said it before, you've got some big shoes to fill for number four. Okay, so I kind of ranked them as far as difficulty. I think Jurassic was the hardest, maybe Avengers Next, and then, no? No, I actually, maybe because I did get so much time on Jurassic, I felt Iron Maiden was harder than Jurassic. I thought those were the easiest of the three, but I could be wrong. No, I think Avengers is the easiest. No. Keith, what do you think? Yeah, Avengers is not that difficult. I think one of the problems is people see the stuff buried deep in the game. It's like, well, I'm never going to get there. This game is too hard. But some of that stuff was placed there intentionally hard for the upper echelon player to have something to strive for, whereas you can get all the way through Avengers without winning a single gem battle. So, I mean, the rules are there for the average player. You need to not think about all the stuff that the gems can do. If you're overthinking it, you're just going to make yourself miserable. Just relax, put them wherever you want. just get through all the achievements, collecting the Avengers, getting all the other stuff to do, get the Thanos. You can do all that without worrying about what the gems do. I think that's why it has this rep as being a super hard game. It really isn't. It's just something for the upper echelon players to fiddle with if they want to. I've gotten through that game quite a few times without getting more than one gem. It's possible. I've seen other people do it. Jurassic World is probably code-wise, it's definitely the most physical code in the game that we've done. I know Rick was comparing, and he's like, wow, there's a lot of code in this game. So it probably is the hardest game to get through. I've had mine for a year. I don't play it a whole lot, but when I do play it, I'm pretty stoked when I get to, not Nublar, but just when I get to the Visitor Center, just because it's been so long since I played it regularly. For a while, it was super easy, and now that I play other games that don't just play that 100% of the time, it became a lot harder. So, yeah, I could see why that would be the hardest. Where will game number four fall as far as difficulty? And something I'd like to ask designers, especially people making rules, will it be easy to understand? How intuitive will this game be? It's very intuitive, and it's probably on the level of Maiden. Okay. It's kind of a similar rule structure as Maiden. It should be pretty straightforward. Once you see the play field, you're like, oh, that seems pretty obvious. I've called this out before you are a big fan of showing what you need to do on the actual play field itself if I can yeah this one's for Raymond Davidson will it be easy to figure out how to add a ball in multi-ball it drives me nuts maybe because I'm stupid maybe because I don't read rules but I'd like to know how to freaking add a ball in multi-ball and I talked to Dwight Sullivan about this We had an off-the-air phone call about it, and he said, eh, it's not that important. I'm like, it is important to me. Jeff, you'll be happy to know you add a ball via the action button.
    48:15
    That's fine, because it's one hit. That's fine. No, no, no. You have to mash the ball. You have to mash the button 20 times within a certain amount of seconds to get out a ball. Keith will never, ever, ever do that. We are simpatico when it comes to the action button. But obviously, you have to hit something before that. Yes, yes. You do have to hit something before that, but you can keep that banked for when you want it. Got it. But is it going to be easy to figure out what to do beforehand? That's the question. Or do we just have to fall into it? You just, I don't know.
    48:46
    He does know. You're saying it's going to be easy. He does. Okay. He does. That's good. Yeah, I don't know. Of course you bloody know. Who are you? I will say there's an insert that says add a ball. So there you go. Okay. Cool. Thank you. Appreciate that. Well, that was that. It was Black Knight, sort of right, had that. I went, oh, okay, I know where the Adaball is. Yes. Well, even the Mandalorian, you can buy it in the foundry. You buy the rifle, it says Adaball. Okay, great. I know where it is. Yep. Is that an action button Adaball? It may be, but the point is it is.
    49:19
    But it's a fun game. Some easy shots, but it's fun. It's got great call-outs. The art, holy cow, Randy Martinez. I love it. All the assets, I enjoy it a lot. And I only played the pro. I assume the Premium LE are that much better, but fun, fun game. I like fun. Fun is fun. I like it. Well, Keith, we appreciate you taking time to talk to us here at Final Round. I'm sorry it's not head-to-head. I'm sorry Marty wishes you dead, but we are fans. I know he only wants to maim you, but the point is we are big fans. We're looking forward to your next game. Kind of hope to see you in tournaments. I know it's not your big thing, but I know an in-disc will happen. you'll definitely make the trip to California, wouldn't you? I would assume. For sure you would. Yeah. Next time I'm on, please have Ryan on. Are you saying we're not enough? Next time we're on? Okay, I'll bow out and we'll bring Ryan on. Yeah, okay. Cool, cool, cool, cool. No, all of us. Yeah, they're the dream team back together. Without Talos, it's the dream team. Yep.
    50:17
    Well, what was good about this is we were all over 50. He's, what, 22? Yeah. 24? I don't know. He's very young. On his yacht somewhere, he can't call in? Yes. who knows rock climbing i don't know okay hey keith thanks very much buddy and uh looking forward to the next one all right thank you for having all right there you go that was keith elwyn strangely still alive but what did we learn um i don't know what i learned really i am surprised at the backpedaling if i'm being honest i mean last week you wanted him dead six feet under you were going after his family perhaps after that and it was kind of lovey-dovey now that he's gone where do you really stand carl i mean you know you you said ones and zeros it's either carl or keith carl is just awesome but you've got to remember carl was the first person i met when i went to the u.s he was just so welcoming and so nice to me that i think that that's what tips it over is just that first impression and me being really quite anxious going to an event with all these stars, pinball stars, and he was one of them, and he was just really nice. A close second was Jim Belsito. He was also freaking nice too. Yeah, but he's not in the boat. There's no way. He's not in the boat. No, no, no. He's on the bay looking at the boat, cheering it on. What if the boat had a rough seat and it wasn't very comfortable? Could Carl sit on Jim or Keith just to kind of soften the blow. Is that possible? Possible. Yeah, anything's possible in this crazy scenario that you've just made up. We don't need to kill people. That's what we've learned. We just need to pick our favorites, and I like the ranking of friends. I think that's a good idea. Yeah, that's what I was saying. I don't necessarily want people to die, but I'm absolutely fine with immense pain. Sure, yeah. Who isn't? Yeah, of course. Speaking of immense pain, I did catch one of your streams, by the way.
    52:22
    Yes. And you're back on it, baby. The gin was flowing. I enjoyed it. So we did have Hi Brent who wrote in saying, wasn't Marty supposed to be not drinking for a year? No, that's not true. I'm not to drink for a month and I'm starting that month next month because I've only just got back into streaming. I just want to enjoy myself for a while, but next month I will not be drinking. Listen to Cleopatra here, queen of denial. Oh, I see what you did there. It's one of the worst jokes ever. But the point is, yeah, you're right. You haven't been streaming for a while, and you did say, I want to do this once I'm back into streaming on a regular basis. So it seems like you are. So all right, I'll cut you some slack. I mean, I went cold turkey with my stupid reach around that someone bought, but there's ways around it. No, no. Now, because so many people keep saying to me, why is it that Jeff is not meant to mention coming to Australia and winning the Pinball Profile World Tour? See, I can mention it. What did you say? Sorry, I missed that. And everyone's like, he constantly mentions it. What? Yeah, I know. He might not say it by word, but he constantly mentions it. No idea what you're talking about. Mm-hmm. Yeah. You know, that does kind of bring up another topic over the last two weeks. Thanks for asking, by the way, Marty. I know you don't care. But I played in my first competition, IFPA competition. It was a flip frenzy, and it was a lot of fun to get back into it. We were all wearing masks and limited. You know, the games were certainly spread out, and it wasn't full capacity, but it was fun to get back out there again. Okay. How did you go? Yes, I won. All right, yes.
    54:04
    Is that the reason why you're bringing it up? No, I bring it up because not only did I play at Bluffs Pinball just east of Toronto, but I got to go to Cabin Fever a couple of times. I mentioned that with Keith, and it was nice to play some pinball on location, and I know a lot of people listening are getting that opportunity. You, Marty, myself, we haven't had those opportunities, and hopefully we will have more of them in the near future. But that was kind of my big thing. I really enjoyed that. But watching your stream, I was blown away. So for those that don't watch Melbourne Silver Ball, and judging by the numbers it looks like a lot, the thing you like to do is go into this little musical number, if you will, halfway through. Do you want to explain what you do? So I do an intermission. So I've been doing that for a while. One of the last ones that was actually really popular was, so there's a new, well, there's many Star Trek series, but there is a new Star Trek series called Star Trek Discovery. And in between each season, they do what's called short treks, which are these, you know, 10 to 15 minute sort of mini episodes in that universe, but not part of the main story. And so I played these short treks as intermission and people just love them because they're actually really interesting. But you know my age. I know your age. It's literally my age plus a lot of years. A week, two weeks. That's still a long time. So back in the 70s, right, there were a series of shows created by two brothers called Sid and Marty Croft. And probably their most popular show was H.R. Puff and Stuff. The other one, I don't know whether it was popular around the world, but the other one was Sigmund and the Sea Monsters. Yep. And I was, and still am, a massive, massive fan of Sid and Marty Croft shows. So I've got a box set pretty much of all their shows. So for Intermission, I'm playing an episode from one of the shows that they did. Look, some of the shows that people would know, well, I don't know whether you know The Bugaloos. Of course I know The Bugaloos. They had a great theme song. Yeah, well, this is the whole thing. There was probably just as much effort put into the theme song for these shows than there was the rest of the show. The music on all of them were great. Dr. Shrinker, Electro Woman and Dina Girl. Oh, my God. I love Electro Woman and Dina Girl. But Lidsville is another one. And Lidsville is really interesting because Lidsville, the star of that show, is Butch Patrick, who was Eddie Munster, who's now, I don't know, he's probably 14 or 15 in this show. It's as trippy as HR Puff and stuff, but it's this magician. He goes inside the magician's hat, and all of a sudden he's in this world called Lidsville. It makes complete sense, obviously.
    56:55
    How much acid were those guys on? This is the whole point. I just watched HR Puff and stuff just recently. I've seen it when I was a kid, and it came across. I'm like, gosh, I haven't seen this in a while. And I remember how much I loved, I thought the Witchy Poo character was pretty funny, Billy Hayes, who just passed away this year. But I remember Mama Cass from The Mamas and the Papas was in it as well. And I was like, I remember she had a really good song. I went back and watched it, and it was a great song. and just the whole freddie and the flute thing and just i mean that is you talk about maybe willie wonka and uh what were they on or some of the dr seuss things well sid and marty not only were on something when they wrote this i think they were on something when they filmed it as well it's it's something to see it's all really trippy another one of my favorites and i played this what was the last episode i played was electoral women and dinah girl an episode of that and previously was The Lost Saucer. And The Lost Saucer, I guess the two main stars of that are Jim Neighbors, who was Goma Pyle, and my favorite, favorite comedian from that time, Ruth Buzzy. I was shocked when you said how much you love Ruth Buzzy. By the way, she's on Cameo. If you ever want to give Marty a special treat, get him a Ruth Buzzy Cameo. You'll make his day. He will throw Carl in the water. He loves Ruth Buzzy that much. everybody i was on myself in the water ruth buzzy was just my go-to when i was a kid for laughs i just loved everything that she did she's a she's a physical comedian in that she does a lot of face funny facials movements and body movement that was her shtick i think she might have also been in laughing yo for sure that's where a lot of people certainly noticed her and she's still active on twitter today so yeah she was a physical comedian but she's just as funny with words too i I follow her on Twitter. I think she's great. Yeah, she's hilarious. But here's the other thing about Sid and Marty Croft. There was apparently, and there is a video on YouTube, apparently there was a Croft World theme park. Get out of here. So I remember going to Disney World and they said, you'd go on It's a Small World and they said, you know, don't touch the water, don't drink the water. At Sid and Marty, were you on like one of those boats? And they said, absolutely drink the water.
    59:06
    So it was called the World of Sid and Marty Croft and it was an indoor amusement park in Atlanta. but one of the and you can actually see that there is a video of this on YouTube one of the rides is it's kind of like a ghost train but you're not it's not dark it's kind of open but you are inside the ball inside a pinball machine and it goes around and it gets bumps on flippers and pop bumpers it's very cool interesting how you came back to pinball well done yep so that was all on your twitch and I assume you're making a lot of money on twitch Oh, you know, Twitch is just all about the cash, cash, cash. It is easy to make money. Are you just doing haggis for a hobby and you're making your big bucks off of Twitch? Is that what I'm understanding? No, it is absolutely true. I don't need to work because I am getting so much money from Twitch. All of my viewer and all of my subscriber are funding my lifestyle. Much like our podcast listeners, let's be honest too. But we do make money on the side, don't we, Marty? We do, which leads us to our sponsor of the week.
    60:15
    There's a new way to get your freak on, and anyone can watch. You don't need to be an adult, there's no paywall, and you don't need to spend money on an OnlyFans site. It's our old friend, Twitch. But wait, didn't Twitch stop monetizing the Hot Tub streams? Hot Tubs? Don't tease me, that's child's play. why watch that when you can watch the latest craze streamers licking a microphone for hours on end how the fuck is that gaming i mean seriously who knows marty but it's narcs like you that will buzz kill these innovative soft core stars i'm not trying to stop these obviously brilliant artistes but you know twitch will shut down that simulated fellatio soon too don't worry there's a whole lot of other tricks up their sleeves. Like what? How to properly tackle a lollipop? Oh, I like it. No, how about this? Watch streamers sharpen their pencils. See them go in and out and in and out. Oh, just the tip. It's sad, but it's true. But Twitch will catch on and that won't last. Okay. Well, how about this? Plunging toilets. First you grab the handle, then you go up and down and up and down. Oh pure gold It the new Twitch now with porn We teased it off the top Big shake at Stern Did you see this coming What do you think about it, Marty? We've got Steve Ritchie gone over to JJP. Lyman Sheets has been gone for quite some time. And that kind of reshapes the pinball world a little bit. So obviously, Steve going to Jersey Jack, that happened. We saw him in front of the sign outside Jersey Jack with the other designers and with Jack. But I didn't know. Has Lyman actually been confirmed has left Stern? Yes. Okay. And apparently that happened a while ago. Your question was, was that a surprise? Lyman, no. I'd heard the rumors a very, very long time ago. I didn't feel I needed to go on the podcast and mention it. Steve, I heard probably two weeks before it happened, and it was still in the rumor. And I was like, really? Why? Why would you? You've done so much at Stern. And I'm not going to say he's old, but at that stage in your career, why would you need to? And obviously, he's got more to deliver, more to achieve, and he wants to do it at another company. It doesn't concern me about Steve moving from Stern to JJP. You and I are both Steve Rischi fans. We like his games. We've owned several. I still own a few, and I really admire his style. Now moving over to JJP, we'll see that again and maybe some more tools, more things in the kitchen sink. as they say. What excites me about him going to JJP, does that mean we're going to see more games from JJP? Because the turnaround has been, due to manufacturing, and this had a lot to do with the old site, has been a little slow. The demand is certainly there for all of their games, but we have to wait for them to be built. So does that mean the builds will be quicker now that you've got three superstar designers? I would hope so. I mean, I know that that was Jack's plan, was to release two games a year.
    63:30
    So maybe that's the case. So a lot of people, like, you would be in the same boat. When these things happen, I get messages all the time saying, oh my God, Steve Ritchie moving. What do you think? Like, my opinion matters. Apparently it does. And I took a while to process it, and this is what I thought. You know I love a lot of Steve Ritchie fans. I'm a massive Flow Game fan. I've loved so many Steve Ritchie games but there's a couple of things to note first of all his art hasn't been good for a while that's not him what do you mean? no I know no well besides Black Knight which was really previous art that's just been modernized a lot of his games don't get good art I'm just saying that because that's what people say I like the art on Game of Thrones a lot of people didn't I like the art on Star Trek a lot of people didn't. Star Wars, a lot of people didn't like the art. I know it's out of his control, but he doesn't necessarily get good art. Well, I think at Jersey Jack, he will get good art. That's just what I say, he will get good art. Also, what slow game does Jersey Jack have? They don't. Yeah. Maybe Wonka, but I wouldn't, I mean, there's a lot of stop and go there, but because of the combos, I would say Wonka's the most so much. Correct. So, So I think there's actually a gap for Steve Ritchie's designs at Jersey Jack. That's what I think. So in the end, I looked at it and went, I think this is a good move. Maybe it's good for Steve because he's been at Stern for a while. Maybe he just needed a change to freshen up and come out with something amazing. And I think it's good for Jersey Jack because they've got your stop and start. I think you've got a consistent hybrid model from Eric. I think he has a combination of stop-start and flow and complicated rules. But just a really good, fast flow game with great art by Steve Ritchie, I think is great for Jersey Jack. It'll be neat to see. I'm excited for Steve to be continuing to do this because he still has that passion. And I think there'll be some great things to come out of him from Jersey Jack. Do I think they'll miss a beat at Stern? Not without Steve because they've got other designers. But there might be a hole now. And who will that be? You know, kind of Keith hinted, whether it was on purpose or not, that may be some new young blood. Well, that got me thinking, okay, are they going to hire a Scott Denisey? Even Steve Ritchie said on Pinball Profile, if there's one game he wished he made, it would have been TNA. Rick and Morty, that game I think was even better. So does Scott want to leave his full-time job for a company like Stern? Who knows? It depends where his head's at and if they want to hire him. What about Jack Danger? We saw him make that homebrew and haven't seen much of it since. He's definitely a very creative guy. And, you know, what's the five-year plan for Jack? Does he want to be streaming? I haven't seen him lick a microphone yet, so there can't be huge money in that.
    66:33
    As with anybody on camera, sadly, you can age out. And I don't know what the five, ten-year plan is for Jack, but I do know he's a creative guy. And I think whatever he puts his mind to, he can do. So if he wants to make that step and go into Stern, I think he's certainly well liked there. And that might be the next move for Jack. And then maybe there's Joe Balser. He's certainly had some great success with Stern in the past. He's kind of a free agent out there. I don't know how much the home pin thing is for him. And I'm sure he would much rather be at Stern. So who knows? Well, it's interesting. I know, obviously, there was talk about Joe Balser at home pin. Did you know that Home Pin have pretty much, we don't know whether it's a bait and switch, but they've pretty much indicated what their next game is. And I'll tell you the hints and then you can try and guess which game it was. It is. First one was a message that said, our next game will go all the way to 11. If they do Spinal Tap, I'll lose it. Shit, don't make me love Home Pin. And then they also showed a picture of the flippers with cricket bats on the top saying, Oh, what's the best way to align these cricket bats?
    67:44
    Do not make me love a home-pinned game. Oh, well, you know what? I will eat crow, if I'm wrong. Sure, but will you actually, like, get a crow? Will you actually get a live crow and kill it, or will you get somebody that's already killed a crow? And are you talking eating it raw, or are you going to fry it? Are you going to bake it? What are you going to do with this crow to be able to eat it? I have no idea. That's what our listener wants to know. I have no idea, listener, but I do know Spinal Tap as a game. Oh, my God, would I love to see that. I know. You and three other people. Go fuck yourself. That is the funniest movie ever made, period. Of course it is. There has never been another one. Have you seen it? I love that movie. Oh, my God, so many times. Okay. I absolutely, like, you've got to, the Stonehenge scene is just one of the funniest scenes in any movie ever. Pretty good. May I raise a practical question at this time? What? Yes. Are we going to do Stonehenge tomorrow night? no we're not gonna fucking do stonehenge oh i i've seen i've oh when i went to england we went out of our way to go to stonehenge by the way i was wearing a spinal tap shirt cool and i gotta tell you it was kind of disappointing boring your shit but i got the photo this is what this is what i've heard i've never been to stonehenge in fact i think it was maybe six seven years ago was the last time i was in the uk and it was for business so i really didn't get a chance everyone that i've spoken to that's gone to Stonehenge has gone, yeah, I saw it, but it's fenced off and it's small and it's really not that exciting. Well, you're far away from it just obviously to keep the integrity of the stones and you don't want to have people defacing them or whatever. So the funny thing is you get there and you read a little history about it and some of the myths and then they put you on a bus to take you out to the Stonehenge part. And you're like, okay, it's there. And it's like, it's been half an hour, walked around it. What else can I do? All right, let's go on the shuttle back. You go on the shuttle back, and as you leave Stonehenge, you can actually see it from the road. So you pay all this money for this shuttle, and you're like, oh, shit. Yeah, okay. Well, do you know what that was like when I went to New York and saw the Statue of Liberty for the first time? I went, ah, I thought it was going to be a lot closer. Or bigger. The size of it surprised me. But then when I went to Uluru, or known as Ayers Rock in Australia for the first time, I was just in awe. I was like, oh my god, this thing is fucking huge. There you go. I missed that. I was too busy playing pinball tournaments. That's all I'm going to say. See, there you go. What did I say? I didn't say anything about it. That's a prime example where you're mentioning it without saying the name. So I think you need to give the trophy back. I don't have the trophy and so I don't know what you're talking about. Anyway.
    70:22
    Well, so speaking of new games, Multimorphic have announced an announcement. Literally. and who knows by the time this airs if the game has come out, but I'm excited. I really like Jerry a lot, Stephen as well too, with what he did with Heist. I'm excited to see what they can do. They've got a license now, so maybe that will be an attraction. Whatever they do, whatever next game they do, license or not, is still more attractive because of the way that game works. So you buy one machine, and with a new title, licensed or not, you now can have three main games, in Lexi Lightspeed, in Heist, and whatever the new one is. That's a pretty good deal. If you only have room for one game, or the more games they get, the better that machine and Multimorphic gets. Yeah, I absolutely agree. The thing that people have been screaming out for the whole time that this platform has been released, I call it platform, is give us a licensed game. So that's what's coming next, apparently. So, I don't know. As you know, I've spoken about Multimorphic, the P3. I've really, really enjoyed playing it. I will say that I don't think it is as pinball as I would like. I think the layout is fine and it feels like pinball. It's more so the rules that they've used. They've used sort of more video game rules, frameworks in a pinball machine. I would rather them have more pinball rules. The example I'll give is Cosmic Kart Race. Cosmic Kart Race has the best layout. Oh my God, it also looks amazing with the LED strips around the ramps as well. But it's Mario Kart. You are playing against other people and you're trying to come first as opposed to scoring and getting into multi-ball and doing jackpots and super jackpots and modes and stuff like that. So if somebody took that and just did a very standard rules framework, I think a lot more people would be satisfied. But really, it's the licensed theme that people are saying that's missing. So if that's what they're bringing, good on them. And I think it will shift some units. Do you know what my absolutely favorite thing about multimorphic games are? What's that? That I never have to lift my head. I can see everything. Yeah, yeah. That's huge. The interface is great. I say that because I know you guys are working on Fathom Revisited, and that'll be exciting. I mean, the old game obviously was just a solid state, but you've got on the apron there, you've got the two displays. I'll never have to lift my head on that game. Hmm, maybe. Oh. Well, because it's in the... that's not like, oh, there's something coming. Oh, the whole... No, it's more so that the screens are in the apron, whereas Multimorphic, the screen is the actual play field. So as you're following the ball around, you're seeing the screen, whereas you've still got to look down at the apron. Take your eye off the ball, if you know what I mean. It's funny. A lot of the games I play, that I play single player, I never, ever, ever look up. I don't have time. Yeah, same. Unless you're cradled up, I guess, and you're kind of holding both flippers and kind of scrolling through the menu. but that's not a lot of the games. So I bring up the Fathom Revisited game because Damien had a nice video. I watched it. It was like 22 minutes, a nice factory tour. Didn't see your office there, but it's huge. It was exciting. Yeah, my office is effectively that factory. So what's been really interesting, as we're getting Kelts games out the door and they're shipping now, we're delivering them, I spend a lot of my time now on the factory floor helping out where I can, and I've discovered new skills that I didn't know I had, which is really good and helps move the games forward. So all I'm saying is that anyone that gets a Kelts machine, something in that game I would have made. What could you have added? Oh, old gin caps or something. Yeah. Look in the bottom of the cabinet. Empty gin bottles will be there. Yeah. Is that a Sid and Marty CD in there? What is that?
    74:19
    That's good. Yeah. No, congratulations. Conversely, and I say this as someone who's a little bit concerned, as a person who's put some money down, we all saw the latest from Deep Root and the Internet, of course. As they do, they like to blow up and speculate about this and that. One thing I know about the Internet and about pinball marketing and all that kind of stuff is there are, what, eight, ten different pinball companies? but online on pinside on social media there are thousands and thousands of marketing experts who will tell you everything that's going on so i don't know how much i i believe those people online but sometimes when there's smoke there's fire fingers crossed i'm looking forward to hopefully getting a game and i know there are others as well but uh there have been delays but you can say there have been delays everywhere too just who i i say that having no idea what the hell's going on. I'm watching like everyone else. Well, look, you've heard from a small manufacturer, I guess, Damien in his video, talking about the challenges of becoming a manufacturer, and at least you can see the factory is there and it's humming and it's working. Keith talked about supply challenges, and we've had supply challenges as well, so Deeproot are going to have exactly the same supply challenges.
    75:35
    Obviously, the catchphrase is making pinball is hard. Yes, it is, But also, you know, making pinball is complicated. And what happens is things that you think are going to be absolutely fine, just the basics, sometimes they don't go according to plan. And you've just got to reiterate, get your quality loops happening so people can improve the manufacture process. So these are the challenges of, A, being a pinball manufacturer and also making pinball. So of all the stuff that I now know, you know, I've been with Haggis officially for three months but unofficially for two years. I've seen all the challenges in that two years. So when I hear messages from Robert Mueller about Deep Root and I hear him on podcasts, I listen to it and I say, yep, I know exactly what you're saying. And I also know when sometimes he's putting the sales or the marketing hat on and when he's being real. But I don't listen to all of that and think, oh, deep root, they're gone. I don't. I just think this is really challenging. They know it's challenging. They could be successful. They couldn't. I don't know whether I've read or heard anything that says that it's the death knell. No, just people speculating. And everyone that's contacted me, I'm like, geez, I don't know. I know a bunch of employees there. They're still there. That's usually a good sign. They're still getting paid. That's usually a good sign. So the email we all got as Rasa future owners was just, there's been some legal issues that they have to kind of take a back step for. But when you talk about manufacturing, you're right. I mean, Damien, what we love about Damien and Haggis is he's very upfront. Here's what's going on. Here's where, you know, I'm not avoiding you. Here's what's happening. CGC, look at how long it's taken them. JJP, the supply has been difficult to get all the games out for Guns N' Roses. Understood. Same with Stern, with Mandalorian and everything else. It's like that across the globe, whatever company are. So we cut some slack there. It's just, I think it's just people getting a little excited, a little, not impatient, you know, wanting to know some sort of timeline. So I guess there's some understanding there. But if any company delivers a game and maybe it takes a delay, when you look back at it two, three years later, are you going to be going, yeah, I like the game, but boy, I had to wait a long time for it. You don't ever say that. When I went to Australia with Anne, she's like, oh, it's going to be such a long flight. I'm like, Anne, when we come back from that flight, are we going to talk about, oh, that was a long flight, or are we going to say, that was a great trip? You know what I mean? Yep. It's just the anticipation. Yeah, great. And I've used that sort of scenario. The example I've given in that is when I talk about Big Bang Bar, the remake, because right now we just go, okay, there was, I don't know, 120 Big Bang Bar remakes made and they're now worth $30,000 to $40,000, right? At the time, the internet was crazy because there were massive delays and people were speculating that it was all going under and people were going to lose their money. Do you remember that? No. Or do you just remember the fact that Big Bang Bar has been made? No. And you can say the same about Big Lebowski too. Look at those guys. They're turning them out. Yeah. And you can say the same thing about Predator.
    78:44
    Oh, evil. Well, I know our friends at Loser Kid certainly like to tee off whenever they can, and that's their right to do so, but it does bring me up to the next point. No one's going to die here, all right? But I do want to know, Marty, because it is our new game. Every week we're going to find out who Marty saves and who doesn't make the cut. You're on a boat with Scott and Josh from Loser Kid. You can only save one of them. Who's it going to be?
    79:13
    Somebody's got to go. They're both family men. This is a terrible, terrible game. Greatest game ever made. It's just the worst. Who does Marty hate? Okay, so I'm just going to try and work this through. So what I've got to remember is the first time I met Scott and Josh was at Kido's Brewery in Utah. And I think Josh had traveled three hours to meet me, you know? So my initial thing is, well, that person likes me so much that they would travel three hours to see me. And Scott didn't. However. Or another way of looking at that is, what the hell else is there to do in Utah other than drive three hours? Just putting that out there. There's also that. Also, on the flip side, you've then got Scott. Scott is amazing with his vocation. And as we know, he's a doctor of some kind. I think people know this story, but I was absolutely floored that every year he volunteers to go to, it's like Guatemala or something, and repair children's cleft palates. That right there is just the most noble thing. I just, you know, I hear a lot of stuff on social media, but I actually had to reach out to him when I heard that. I just went, man, I just got to tell you that you're a freaking legend for doing that. And his attitude is like, well, someone's got to do it. And it gives me great joy. And I love, you know, healing these children. I'm like, oh, my God, that is just freaking amazing. Which is why it makes it so hard that you've thrown him in the water and saved Josh. Yeah, that's right. Absolutely. Josh is who I'd save. That's all I'm saying. Sorry, children. You're just going to have to live life with a cleft palate. I'm giving Scott the vote. One, I'm not a big fan of the name Josh. I don't know why.
    81:14
    But, I mean, Josh, here's how you can save yourself. If you go to Guatemala and repair some AC units, then maybe then maybe I will bring it back. Oh, stop. Oh, that actually split my sides.
    81:35
    I think that's enough. We've saved some people. We've found people in the water, some companies. We've been dicks for another two weeks, and we'll do it again. And we'll find out who Marty saves next time on the next edition of Final Round. Where can people catch us? They can catch us on Facebook. Just look up Final Round People Podcast. Our Instagram is Final Round People Podcast. Our Twitter is Final Round Pin. And what's the other one? And Gmail is phantompinball at gmail.com. Sounds good. Enjoy work at Agus. I will. Thanks, everybody. Speak to you soon.