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Ep 20: Pinball Expo and Lit Frames with Brad Hunter

LoserKid Pinball Podcast·podcast_episode·1h 15m·analyzed·Oct 15, 2019
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claude-haiku-4-5-20251001 · $0.037

TL;DR

Brad Hunter (Lit Frames) shares pinball history and unveils limited-edition Franchi art frames at Expo.

Summary

Brad Hunter of Lit Frames discusses his journey into pinball from age 7, his experience during the 2000s downturn when classic games were cheap and hard to sell, and his product that illuminates and frames backglass translights. He's appearing at Pinball Expo with limited-edition signed Beetlejuice and Superman 78 translites in collaboration with artist Franchi, and will also sell frames. The hosts discuss the evolution of pinball from the dark times pre-2010 to today's thriving community.

Key Claims

  • Brad was given four translites (Deadpool, Star Wars, Guardians of the Galaxy, Iron Maiden) by Stern as a thank you for discussing marketing ideas with Jody and Zach Sharp

    high confidence · Brad directly states he's been friends with Jody since 2010 and with Zach since his hiring, and exchanges lunch conversations about marketing ideas

  • In 2004, Brad purchased Scared Stiff for $13.95 (sticker price) from Namco Game Sales and sold it in 2009 for $2,600

    high confidence · Brad provides specific details: early production with glow shooter eyeball, mint condition, bought in 2004, sold in 2009

  • In the 2000s downturn, pinball parts were not readily available and there was no YouTube or online repair community to help fix machines

    high confidence · Brad and hosts discuss how without an online community or parts availability, broken machines couldn't be repaired

  • Jersey Jack's entry into the market around 2010 sparked Stern to improve game quality, releasing AC/DC, Tron, and other titles

    medium confidence · Brad's opinion on the competitive dynamic: 'Jersey Jack jumped in and said, we don't like what machine Sterns are making... that lit a fire under stern'

  • IFPA has over 75,000 registered competitive players who have entered real tournaments

    high confidence · Hosts cite this figure as evidence of tournament pinball growth; hosts note only 2,000-3,000 are regular competitors

  • Lit Frames has pre-sold about half of the 25 limited-edition Beetlejuice translites before Expo

    high confidence · Brad states: 'About half of those Beetlejuice have already been pre-sold, and Expo hasn't even happened yet'

  • Brad hadn't played old Star Wars pinball before Expo and plans to play Pirates, Wonka, and new Star Wars at the show

    high confidence · Brad directly states: 'I haven't played the old Star Wars yet, though' and lists games he's looking forward to

  • There is at least one Predator pinball machine in existence at Galloping Ghost Arcade, described as possibly the only one

Notable Quotes

  • “I thought that's pretty lame. After a few months, these should be lit. They should be hanging in a frame, but I couldn't find anything that was readily available that fit this size.”

    Brad Hunter @ early segment — Explains the origin of Lit Frames product idea from Stern translites given to him

  • “A game that worked. That's all that mattered to me. And so I kept that game about eight or nine years, sold it in 2009.”

    Brad Hunter @ middle segment — Illustrates the 2000s pinball downturn mentality—quality/condition didn't matter, just functionality

  • “You weren't thinking I should start hoarding games now because five, 10 years from now, everything's going to be three times what it's worth.”

    Brad Hunter @ middle segment — Captures the lack of collector foresight during the 2000s era when games were cheap

  • “Jersey Jack jumped in and said, we don't like what machine Sterns are making. We are going to do a different type of game... that lit a fire under stern.”

    Brad Hunter @ middle segment — Opinion on how JJP entry catalyzed Stern's quality improvements post-2010

  • “There's almost 70,000 people who have tried a tournament. and if you can get any of those to latch on and to become a fan, you're growing the sport.”

    Scott Larson @ late segment — Reframes IFPA numbers as growth potential rather than just current active player base

  • “He was the only one that replied and gave me a few locations and said here some locations or you could just come over and play at my house.”

    Brad Hunter @ early-middle segment — Describes how he met Scott through Pinside pinmap, leading to their friendship and podcast appearance

  • “About half of those Beetlejuice have already been pre-sold, and Expo hasn't even happened yet.”

    Brad Hunter @ late segment — Demonstrates strong demand for limited-edition Franchi art translites at Expo

Entities

Brad HunterpersonLit FramesproductJosh RooppersonScott LarsonpersonChristopher FranchipersonBrian AllenpersonPinball ExpoeventZach Sharpperson

Signals

  • ?

    community_signal: Pinside pinmap used by collectors to identify local players and connect for machine access/collaboration; Brad used it for recruiting campus visits to find pinball players

    medium · Brad used Pinside pinmap to message Scott before visit to Utah; checked who had played on map within last month; Scott was only respondent in area

  • ?

    community_signal: IFPA tournament registration represents 75,000+ players who have participated in organized competitive play; indicates substantial hobby penetration despite competitive play not appealing to all players

    high · Hosts cite 75,000 IFPA registered players as growth metric; Scott frames this as 70,000 people who have tried tournaments as potential gateway to fandom

  • ?

    competitive_signal: Top competitive players may be subset (2,000-3,000) of broader 75,000 IFPA base; casual/location play remains significant market segment despite competitive narrative dominance

    medium · Hosts note could argue only 2,000-3,000 'regularly play' despite 75,000 registered; Scott contrasts competitive pinball turnoff with broader casual appeal

  • ?

    design_philosophy: Norman Schwarzvogel's design approach traditionally features distinctive ramp layouts (bony beast, whitewater, insanity falls) but new Elvira uses typical fan layout, indicating designer experimentation with conventional design

    medium · Hosts note Elvira lacks Nordman's signature visual distinctiveness vs Deadpool's katana ramp or his previous games; Nordman 'mixing up and trying things' with fan layout

  • ?

    event_signal: Pinball Expo approaching with multiple manufacturers present (contrast to 15 years ago with only Stern); Brad's second attendance; significant growth from previous expo visit

Transcript

groq_whisper · $0.226

0:00
Thanks for tuning in to the Loser Kid Pinball Podcast. It is episode number 20. I am Josh Roop, along with my co-captain, Scott Larson. And today we have Brad Hunter of Lit Frames. How are you doing today, Brad? I'm doing great. How are you guys? We're doing great. Sounds like you're gearing up for Expo coming up. Yeah, absolutely. next Thursday is the kickoff day.
0:32
So we'll get into a lot more about why you're on and what's the point. But let's talk about what do you do in pinball? Because there's a lot of different things that Josh and I have talked about, whether or not it's the designers or the programmers. But we also like the, I guess, the game room element of just having things in your house that tell, hey, this is what I do. And so what do you do? Why are you into pinball?
1:02
Yeah, so I'm into pinball for the experience, and part of that's the artwork. And so basically my product was to come up with a way to light up pinball translights or artwork that's in the back box so you can have it hanging on your wall anytime, whether you own the machine or you didn't. Okay. And so why did you choose to have this illuminated art? It's great. And a lot of people have extra trans lights laying around. What made you think, you know what, I need to do something better to get this up on people's walls? Yeah. So Stern actually gave me four trans lights and they're sitting under my bed, rolled up in a tube. And I thought that's pretty lame. After a few months, these should be lit. They should be hanging in a frame, but I couldn't find anything that was readily available that fit this size. And the people that used to make them were no longer in business. And so I finally found and worked with a manufacturer where I could custom size these frames for my trans lights. Initially, I just wanted four frames for my trans lights to hang on my wall. I showed them to some friends. They got excited, which got me excited. They wanted some. So I kept making more, kept making them better. Fast forward a year later and here today chatting with you guys. So first question, what are the four Translites that Stern gave you? Deadpool, Star Wars, Guardians of the Galaxy, and Iron Maiden. So they gave you these translates? Did you win them? How did this happen? No one's ever given me a translate. So I'm wondering how I can get on the team. Yeah, so I've been friends with Jody over there since about 2010. And then recently, Zach, since he got hired on. We'll go to lunch every once in a while.

medium confidence · Brad mentions playing it there; hosts discuss its rarity: 'one of the only ones in existence in my understanding'

“I'm pretty for sure that's what it was because we all joked, like, you got to stream it, you got to stream it. And then Jack was like, guys, it's like a turd.”

Josh Roop @ late segment — References Pinball Brothers' Predator as mechanically unstable, shuts down mid-game, too unreliable for streaming

Jersey Jack Pinball
company
Stern Pinballcompany
Lyman Sheetsperson
Jack Dangerperson
Galloping Ghost Arcadecompany
Predatorgame
Dan Snormanperson
Norman Schwarzvogelperson
Keith Elwinperson
Jurassic Parkgame
IFPAorganization
Scared Stiffgame
Monster Bashgame
Iron Mangame
Pirates of the Caribbeangame
Wizard of Ozgame
Wonkagame

high · Brad notes last attended 15 years ago when 'basically Stern had their latest game and then tournaments in the vendor hall. That was it' vs now with 'manufacturers there, plural'

  • $

    market_signal: 2000s pinball market downturn: machines like Scared Stiff, Congo, Attack from Mars, Tales of Arabian Nights were $800-$2,200 range; no collector demand or scarcity mindset; mint condition games took months to sell

    high · Brad describes Scared Stiff ($13.95 sticker, 2009 sale $2,600 after month of listings), Congo at $1,000, Tales at $2,200; contrast to today's values

  • ?

    community_signal: Brad Hunter transitioned from collector/operator in 2000s to marketing professional with side business in pinball art/frames; represents life-stage evolution of hobbyists gaining disposable income (house, job, family)

    medium · Brad notes owning only one machine today despite 23 years in hobby; prioritization shifts from high school to college to married to kids to job; now has 'hobby fund' again

  • ?

    product_strategy: Lit Frames differentiates through custom-sized illuminated frames for translites; Brad solved problem of unused translites from manufacturers; partnership with artists (Franchi) for limited-edition signed art pieces

    high · Brad describes founding motivation: 'four trans lights... sitting under my bed, rolled up in a tube' and inability to find existing frames; now doing 25 limited-edition signed Beetlejuice/Superman 78

  • ?

    product_concern: Pinball Brothers' Predator described as mechanically unreliable (shuts down during ball three); too unstable for professional streaming; Jack Danger declined to stream it

    high · Hosts discuss Predator as 'like a turd' and note Jack Danger refused streaming due to mid-game shutdown; described as finicky and not worth setup time

  • ?

    technology_signal: Post-2010 emergence of online repair communities (YouTube, Pinside forums) fundamentally changed pinball hobby accessibility; previously required local expertise or industry connections

    high · Brad and hosts discuss pre-2010 as limited to 'Rec Games Pinball, which was basically a Google group' and text-only forums vs post-YouTube era enabling DIY repairs and playfield work

    • 3:02
    My background and what I currently do in my day job is marketing for consumer good companies. And so, you know, we exchanged ideas about different experiences, events, marketing ideas for Stern. And as a thank you, I wasn't expecting anything. We were just talking over lunch. They sent me a bunch of translates just as a thank you for, you know, spending time and talking pinball. So, yeah, they didn't owe me anything. It was just super great of Stern to send those to me. Well, I want to back up just a couple steps because I feel like we put the cart in front of the horse.
    3:39
    Brad, why don't you tell us how you got into pinball because we had – I mean we already had this discussion, but we didn't share it with everyone. So why don't you tell us a little bit about how you got into pinball up to this point? Yeah, when I was about seven or eight years old, went over to a friend's house and they had a Sorcerer, a Ms. Pac-Man, a Banzai Run, and I think either a Big Hunt or a Scorpion.
    4:04
    And I thought they stole them from the bowling alley. I honestly didn't know people could own coin-operated games in their home, but it was the coolest thing. So we'd build a fort under their hockey table and we'd play Sorcerer until 2 or 3 a.m. and have nightmares from those eyes in the back glass. And ever since then, I knew I wanted a pinball machine in my house. And so a few years later, when I was 14, I borrowed a couple hundred bucks from my parents. They had an SUV, so I went to an operator's warehouse, picked up a ballet skateboard and Atari Space Riders. and I kid you not, the Atari Space Riders, all it needed was a fuse.
    4:45
    Wow. And that's what everyone jokes about. So I flipped those games and then the rest is history. I just kept buying and fixing. So back then it was Wreck Games Pinball before Pinside. Started meeting local collectors, learned how to read schematics, just basic repair type stuff. Then YouTube comes along, Pinside comes along. yeah and then it kind of blows up from there what's crazy to me is we were talking before this and you were telling me you kind of lived through the i want to call i'm going to call it the quote unquote dark times of pinball so that 2000s area you were telling me you were trying to sell like a scared stiff and it sat for months at 2600 and you just couldn't get rid of pinball machines because no one was buying. And just tell us a little bit about that because I think a lot of us that are in the pinball hobby now have really dropped in in the last five years. So, yeah, tell us about it. Yeah. So back then, it was pretty interesting. So I never got into the container games. So you hear people talking about Twilight Zones, Addams Families for $800, $1,200 coming in from Europe all the time. The games I had, so that Scared Stiff came from Namco Game sales I bought in 2004. $13.95 was the sticker price. It was an early production, had the glow shooter eyeball, had a glow bony beast ramp, as well as the slings, mint shape. I didn't even know what cabinet fade was back then. I didn't know what ghosting inserts were back then. A game that worked. That's all that mattered to me. And so I kept that game about eight or nine years, sold it in 2009. It actually was listed for at least a month until a local collector paid $2,600 for it. I think I dropped the price from $2,800 to $2,600. Within a month, I also sold my No Good Gophers for $1,850. It was mint as well. I think the frustrating thing was I didn't know as much about the hobby from what's collectible because it didn't really matter back then. You weren't thinking I should start hoarding games now because five, 10 years from now, everything's going to be three times what it's worth. I remember walking into this pool hall. There was a Congo and it was listed for $1,000. And he had two to choose from. He said, which one do you want? And I tried to haggle them at $900 because I literally only had $900. And he said, no, I can only do a thousand. So I walked away and he had two Congos to pick from. You should have pulled out your, your, uh, pulled out your pockets and laid all the money out and was like, and seriously, and you can have whatever change I have in the ashtray in my car. I know just back then it, it didn't matter. I mean, 900, 1,000, truly that was all I had. I was in college.
    7:50
    Who's buying pinball machines in college? It's crazy. Yeah. Okay. Now, I know you went to college in Utah. Was that here in Utah? Yeah. So I went to BYU. Oh, jeez. Actually, I tried to buy the Attack from Mars from the bowling alley, and I tried to buy a Tales of Arabian Nights that actually turned down for 2,200. It was at a pizza joint because they said, well, it's unshopped. Like I'll give you 1,800, but 2,200, you're crazy. Well, but at the same time, that's – well, it's not crazy. That was market price at the time. Yeah, that was the norm, right? I mean that would be like buying an unshopped tails for 8,000 today. Well, and the other thing you said that played into factors at this time too was there was no parts available. No one had ramps.
    8:34
    No one had – pretty much if you – it was broken. There wasn't much way to fix it, right? I think that it was part of the – there was a game changer right around 2010 to 2012. I think it's twofold. One, I think Jersey Jack jumping in because Jersey Jack jumped in and said, we don't like what machine Sterns are making. We are going to do a different type of game. and that my my impression is that lit a fire under stern and stern said oh we can step up our game by the way here's acdc here's tron here's all these other games that they just took it up a notch and so one they started making better games flat out but two you had um you had this emerging online community of people who's like, okay, I don't have a pinball guy who can repair machines here, but guess what? I have an internet. I have YouTube. I have this online community, which I can figure out how to maintain a machine because the challenge was in 2005, you didn't really have that unless you knew someone how to fix a machine, your machine was broke and it was not going to get fixed. Yeah, because the media and the content back then, you know, there was Rec Games Pinball, which was basically a Google group. But it's basically a text thread, right? Yeah. And so your ability to show videos or to FaceTime with someone around the world, at least that I can remember, it didn't exist.
    10:13
    It's also how much time do you have? How much time do you have to fix a game? Yeah, I mean, think about play field swaps today. Think about clear-coding play fields. People did that back then, but that was super high-end restores, almost like what a high-end pin would be doing. I would never consider doing that back then. It seems that with the ability for people to learn how to work on their own machines, I think I would still be very nervous about board work, about doing electronics work. but if it's a mechanical part, I can pretty much figure that out. And I think that's where most people are when it comes to maintaining their games. Yeah. A hundred percent. A lot of the mechs have even been remade. So when I got into it, uh, Carrie stare from mantis amusements, it kind of come on the scene and he was remake remaking a lot of the metal brackets that were breaking. So no good gophers, right? The catch ramps. Uh, he was remaking all of those were before you're kind of, you're out of luck. Like if that breaks, I hope you can find someone who can weld that or your game's going to be inoperable. So you've been in the wild, in the hobby for a while now, and you've just kind of grown up with it as you've moved on with life, correct? Yeah. I've been kind of in and out of it. Right. Cause I only own, I own one pinball machine today, even though I've been in the hobby, I'd say on and off for 23 years. And so, you know, that's kind of the thing about getting into the hobby when you're 14, you don't have money when you're 14. And your priorities and your life stages change from high school to college, to married, to kids, to back to school, to just getting a job, to now it's my hobby fund is now a house fund. And so it continues to evolve or someone who may come into the hobby, say 35, 40, 45 years old, you know, they're probably more established as far as a hobby fund and a focus that they can then dump into the hobby. Yeah. And that's pretty much when I got into it. I got into it when I, when I had the house, when I had the job and I, over a year I went kind of crazy and I, I bought, uh, I think eight, eight expensive machines in a year because I, I actually had a pool of funds that I was planning on building a, an entertainment area with. But yeah, so, so here's a question I have so now you are getting into that that age demographic where you can get the man cave so if you were to pick your five to six i'm gonna assemble my lineup what would they be uh jurassic park pro is first on the list the data east one right stern that was a good one uh stern jurassic park uh that's my favorite newer stern Deadpool Premium, I'm a big fan of. I'd have to do some Chicago Gaming remakes. So Medieval, Attack from Mars.
    13:15
    Yeah, those are probably the four. Okay. So you basically stayed pretty new. You stayed, I mean, those are, if you're going back, Attack from Mars and Medieval Madness, you're looking at 96 is the earliest you would have. yeah so it'll be 90s Bally Williams or Newer Stern okay yeah we'll see what Jersey Jack brings up in the next year or two Wizard of Oz is my favorite of the ones but I haven't played Pirates yet so Pirates could be a contender as someone who's played Pirates I will say it's pretty amazing it has a very similar epic game feel like Wizard of Oz When you come up to Wizard of Oz, you know it's a different game, which is why they keep selling more and more Wizard of Oz machines, because it is different than a lot of the other games out there. And when you walk up to a Pirates, if Wizard of Oz had the kitchen sink, Pirates has like a lazy river and a pool and a bungee cord.
    14:24
    It seems like there's nothing missing in that game. And the fact that it feels like a narrow, like a standard body versus a wide body is a testament to what Eric's done with the design. I really hope that when they keep cycling through that they throw that back on the line because it's a crime that they had a hard time getting it to market. And then people dropped off. And so they sold it a little bit and then they moved on to Wonka. I really hope that now it's been out there and people are demanding it, that Jersey Jack does throw it back in the rotation because it would be a shame to have that epic game not be available. I really want to figure out a way to incorporate it into my collection at some point in the future. Good to know. so brad what is it that uh that appeals to you more about the pro than the premium jurassic part because right now everyone's like it feels like it's missing something if you don't have the premium price as simple as that so yeah i know scott didn't throw price right and price probably doesn't matter if you're picking five to seven you know games that are probably 40 to $60,000.
    15:42
    But if I were just picking one game and say I had $5,000 or $6,000 to spend, it'd be Jurassic Park Pro today.
    15:51
    We're going to ask people who are listening, you can help out Brad right now by buying his Lost World. Not the Jurassic Park one, but the one from 1980s, correct? Yeah. As long as they don't listen to the Bowen Cairns special you guys did where he really talked up the game.
    16:08
    Yeah. So there's a lost world for Sal. It would really help out Brad to get that Jurassic Park pro he's eyeballing. Yeah. So I haven't played the Premium or the LE Jurassic Park yet.
    16:22
    They look amazing because I think you have the – is it the Raptor cage on the left? And then you have the T-Rex that comes down and eats the ball.
    16:31
    But I was blown away. I think it's one of the best pros that Stern's put out in a while. I felt like a lot of people had to go to the Premium at least to feel like they got the complete package. And I think they knocked it out of the park at a pro level to get everything in there that they did. You know, I think this Keith Elwin is going to be a force in pinball. He's a new guy. Maybe people should hear about him. But, yeah, I think he'll be pretty good for a while. I agree. So you told us you're friends with Zach and Jody. What kind of secrets can you give us, you know, behind-the-scenes stuff that's going on? Yeah, what are the next five releases that they've told you they're going to have? Hey, you guys are kind of breaking up. well i know i was talking to zach the other day and he was telling me all the new releases coming out so yeah can't wait for my little pony yeah man that would be awesome island adventure hello kitty island adventure it's gonna be awesome you know i've been told though you don't joke about golden girls there is a certain segment of the or part of the pinball fandom that really wants the golden girls and they get very upset if that's joked about.
    17:40
    So, yeah. Brad, I want to talk a little bit about how you and I met because I found this actually quite funny.
    17:48
    Why don't you tell your perspective of the story? Because I really I didn't even realize it was not what I thought it was until we had been talking for about two hours. You want the perspective from a stalker?
    18:01
    Yeah. No, you're not a stalker. That's the whole random thing. Until you hear the real story. So as you know, Pinside has a pin map. And so I was going to be out recruiting for my company, what, two weeks ago now? And so I was looking around the town that I was going to be in because Pinside map pins everyone. And I was looking who of these people, you know, 20 minutes away from the campus had been on Pinside within the last month. And there were only two or three people that popped. So I messaged everyone asking for locations in that area that I could play pinball. I was doing some campus recruiting and Scott was the only one that replied and gave me a few locations and said here some locations or you could just come over and play at my house I said OK Yeah So we met up and played pinball for about two hours And yeah, great host and super thankful that I had the opportunity to play your collection and meet you.
    19:05
    But here's the funny thing. I just kind of assumed that I know that we're not a huge podcast, but I just kind of assumed that he's like, oh, I'm going to be in Utah.
    19:15
    Scott and Josh, they're from Utah. I'll be able to message them. So the whole time I'm just assuming that, oh, well, he must be listening to the podcast. And I had no idea, one, that Brad did all these frame things, and two, he had no idea that we had a podcast. And so I really think that you were over at my house for about two hours before you even said, well, yeah, I do this thing on the side. and he's like how'd you get into pinball I'm like wait really I think I've told the story a few times but okay well I got we got a podcast going on he's like oh okay so yeah it's just interesting how you make a lot of assumptions when you meet people and you're like oh well that's completely different than what I have yep all true yeah And actually, I will say Brad did, when I said, yeah, well, I'm interested in getting some pinball art, Brad said, well, let me send out one of the frames and you can try it out and see what you think. And so Brad actually did send me one of these frames. And I will say, as someone who's gone over to my friend's house, who's had a lot of these illuminated trans light frames, this is a great frame. and certainly a reasonable price for being able to get them and to frame your art. And so Brad's going to be at Expo. And so go and check him out, and you'll be able to get a discount price right there because he's not having to ship it. You can just take it from him. And also, what else do you have? You have – talk about the art connections that you have deals with that you're illuminating their stuff. Yeah, so there will be three different art pieces with Franchi and with Brian Allen. So I'm sure some of your listeners have heard about the Beetlejuice and the Superman 78 pinball machines that never came about.
    21:20
    Partnered with Franchi to sell a limited edition signed and numbered 25 Beetlejuice Translites and 25 Superman 78 Translites. Those will be available at the show. if you want to pick them up with the frame. And then Brian Allen, who did the Monster Bash alternate, also just released the Attack from Mars alternative trans light. So I'll have some of those for sale as well at my booth, and he will be there for signing at his booth as well. So Beetlejuice, Superman 78, and Attack from Mars, as well as frames that fit all those sizes. And then I'll have the 90s Williams Bally-sized frame as well. So if you have any of the classic games from that era, I have a frame that will fit all of those Translites.
    22:08
    Well, the other question I have now too is I know that Brian Allen just posted that he still has some of the Monster Bash available.
    22:16
    Not very many. He has one less because I bought one. Oh, gotcha. I'm buying one. And then do you know if Franchi will be teaming up with you to do the Wonder Woman because he did just release that artwork. I think it was this last week or the week before that he did for the original Wonder Woman series that came out 30 years ago. Yeah, we have not talked about Wonder Woman. I'd say this art project probably kicked off two months ago.
    22:41
    And so I think Wonder Woman, was that within the last week or so, was released? Yeah. I'd love to partner up with them. I think we see how Expo goes.
    22:52
    About half of those Beetlejuice have already been pre-sold, and Expo hasn't even happened yet. And so I think anyone that has seen FranchiArt knows the value. And we're only doing 25, which I'd say is a truly limited run of these. Yeah. And so, yeah, if you want them, drop by my booth, Lit Frames at Expo, and, you know, be happy to hook you up.
    23:18
    Can they message you beforehand and reserve one? Yeah, absolutely. So litframeshop at gmail.com is my email. If you want to prepay, maybe either hold one and you'll pick it up at Expo. I'm also willing to ship if you can't make it to Expo. Because I understand not everyone lives near Chicago or is making the trip out. Happy to work with you there.
    23:41
    And spell out Lit Frame. Yeah, so L-I-T-F-R-A-M-E-S-H-O-P at gmail.com. witframeshop at gmail.com. We'll definitely put that in the show notes as well.
    24:00
    It's crazy. Is this your first time at Expo? This is my second time. I think the last time I went was maybe 15 years ago,
    24:09
    which is crazy because it's only an hour away. Yeah. Lived away for about 10 years. You're going to have to blog or something, or even Facebook. like the total differences between 15 years ago to this year. You know, I mean, 15 years, I was like 04, wasn't I? 04, 05. Yeah. Crazy. You saw the release of Lord of the Rings. Yeah, exactly.
    24:33
    Yeah. Yeah, you had Gary up there dressed as a hobbit. So we'll have to touch base with you and actually circle around and see what you feel the difference is. Yeah. I'm guessing the big one will be the manufacturers there, plural.
    24:53
    So that will be super exciting just to see their different booths and experiences. Last time it was basically Stern had their latest game and then tournaments in the vendor hall. That was it.
    25:06
    It's so crazy. I don't know. It's mind-blowing to me because it's like, yeah, we've talked about this multiple times. Like the movie special one lit, just watching how there was like no one there. And now you look at it and it's like, I mean, look at the IFPA. This is just competitive pinball. And I do, there's a lot of people that say competitive pinball and tournament pinball turn people off. And I kind of believe that to a point. But we have over 75,000 registered people to IFPA. That's insane to me. 75,000 people, it's awesome. And that's just the competitive part. That's not just the casual goers. That's not – you know what I'm saying? Well, the people who have done – who have actually entered a real tournament. And I know there are people who can look at the downside of that and say, okay, well, so look at the people who regularly play, and it's probably only the top 2,000 or 3,000. Okay, you can say that. But you could also say, hey, there's almost 70,000 people who have tried a tournament. and if you can get any of those to latch on and to become a fan, you're growing the sport.
    26:19
    So what are you looking forward to at Expo besides selling 100 frames? Looking forward to playing Pirates, Wonka, the new Star Wars. I know it's the same as the old Star Wars. I haven't played the old Star Wars yet, though. So I think just playing a lot of the new games I haven't played. I don't get out to location play as much. There's Galloping Ghost, Pinball, which is probably half an hour from me, and then a bunch of arcades. Dude, have you not played the – oh, crap. What's the Skip B one? Predator. Have you not played Predator at Galloping Ghost? I have played it at Galloping Ghost. That and I think Alien. Aren't they side by side?
    26:58
    I think they are. How is both of them? So I only played a game or two because Jack Danger was streaming that night. This was maybe a month or two ago. So he was there streaming, I think, Predator and Alien. So by the time I got to him, they were closing. So I only got about one game. So fun to play, but I couldn't give you a review on it.
    27:21
    No worries, no worries. Do they actually have rules with Predator? I don't know. Or is it just a light box that flips?
    27:32
    I'm surprised. I didn't even know they made one. So I'm a little surprised that there's one on location. It's like one of the only ones in existence in my understanding. Yeah. Well, but I'm just wondering like what, what kind of rules they possibly doing that. That's impressive that they even got a predator flipping machine since they couldn't get a magic girl flipping machine. Yeah. I don't know about rules. I wonder if Jack danger has it on his stream. I thought he streamed it.
    27:59
    He did. And I, um, either that, or if I remember correctly, he refused to stream it because it shuts down during like ball three. There's not enough there to keep it going. And so it was like, do I stream it? And then it shut down. With how much time it takes to set up to stream, it's not worth it to stream something that's going to be very finicky and then shut down on you. And so I'm pretty for sure that's what it was because we all joked, like, you got to stream it, you got to stream it. And then Jack was like, guys, it's like a turd. Like, I don't want to set up just to stream something just to find something else to stream. Well, okay, I will say it is super pretty. They at least nailed that 80s vibe with it.
    28:43
    So, you know, whichever art. I guarantee if anyone had that in their collection, it's an eye grabber just because you've got two human skulls and spines dripping with blood hanging off the back box. Why not? You can't tell me that wouldn't catch everyone's eye walking into your collection. They might be concerned, but they catch your eye. I'm just going to put it downstairs, and my eight- and six- and four-year-old will come down. They'll love that. You know it, man. Yeah. Well, speaking of Scared Stiff, Brad, you used to own that. What do you think of the new Elvira? Are you excited to play that at Expo?
    29:16
    Yeah, absolutely. I love Scared Stiff. I love the humor in it. Yeah, I'm excited to play it. I haven't watched any of the streams yet on the gameplay. I don't know if you guys have watched many of the streams. I watched the reveal stream with Jack Danger and Dan Snorman and Lyman Sheets, and it was pretty good.
    29:39
    I like the direction. You can obviously tell it's got really good bones, so the play field looks like it shoots really well. But that code, you know Lyman, man.
    29:49
    He's got to put the cherry on top. So it's starting code, but it looks good from what I saw. So would you pick Elvira or Munsters based on what you know? Elvira hands down I find monsters fun it's not super deep but not every game you have needs to be super deep the game that I come down and play the most in my collection is Iron Man and really it's not that deep of a game if I can get to the wizard mode in Iron Man it's not that deep but I still have a fun time playing it and so I'm not I know there's a lot of people who are bagging on monsters, but really what they were shooting, what they were shooting for. I think it's a good game. I think the problem is though, and this is just my personal opinion. I own a monster bash. Um, and it's, they're always compared to each other. Um, because just the way that the game set up and everything, I would prefer to have a monster bash than a monsters. And so I guess that's where that plays into it. Cause I'm like, well, Avira feels something different. Like I've never owned a scared stiff. I've never owned – I don't think I've honestly ever owned a Norbman game, even though some of his are my favorites, like Whitewater and Scared Stiff. And we were talking Indy 500. That's another good one too.
    31:10
    So I guess there's a lot that plays into it. If you're just putting them side by side and you never own any game, I honestly probably still take Elvira. But that's just me, I guess. Sure, but you're also paying more for Elvira. I thought we were doing like I thought we were like doing our prize wheel thing here where it was like what's behind door one or two how about a monsters premium that's the same price right yes the base Elvira okay I mean it's yes yes the challenge I have with those games is a lot of the time you have a lower play field and ends up being kind of a gimmick it's there's not really much to do it's like the Congo you know you just have aim you flail the buttons and you eventually just you know spell all the letters and with the monsters one it it's okay but there's it's it's a small diversion for the entire field and so with elvira having a lot more going on the one thing that disappoints me about elvira just from an aesthetic view is that nordman is known for having something that his games look different. If you look at the big ramps, the sweeping ramps, visually, they are different than your standard layout. I'm not downgrading a fan layout because there's a reason why a lot of the great games are fan layouts. And so for him to try a typical fan layout says that, hey, he's mixing up and trying things. But visually, it's different. It's not like Deadpool that has the katana ramp that that is a big long shot that goes all the way across the play field you know it goes it goes right then left and circles around and ends up on the right again and so visually it's completely different so i'd be curious to see how it how it feels when you're playing it because it's not the bony beast ramp it's not the you know the white water ramps that huge and flowing uh you know insanity falls but it it certainly would be interesting i guess well but um in elvira the new one he uh norman did put in a whitewater ramp he put in the disaster drop ramp the one that comes around and then drops it it's above the whole play field and just drops onto the play field so yeah but so let's talk let's talk expo let's uh what we're We're Sunday night, so there might be information. Knowing our luck, we're going to speculate. And then tomorrow morning, this week in pinball, it's probably going to come out and be like, by the way, this is what's coming out this week. So let's do some speculations really quick.
    33:56
    Flipping out pinball with Ryan White, not this last week, but the week before, Ryan White of Chicago Gaming went on and said that they're going to be re-releasing Medieval Madness soon. He didn't give much. He didn't say when. He didn't say how they're going to do it. But my question is, it's got to be time, right? Like Logan Arcades had the Medieval Madness with the giant DMD, like the Attack from Mars and Monster Bash for almost a year now, if I remember correctly. So do you do that? Like do you release Medieval Madness no matter what with the large DMD? Are people going to buy it without it? You know what I'm saying? so I think they'll buy it. It's a medieval madness is their evergreen title. That's the, you know, that that's their version of the wizard of Oz for Jersey Jack. I, they will, they will keep selling those. And with scalability of, of manufacturing, you can, you can make 20 or 30 at a time and you don't have to just keep making them until you're done and then move on. like Williams used to. But the thing, this is where I'm getting at. So we all know that a large DMD is coming. Let's say Chicago Gaming shows up at Expo and says, hey, we're doing a new line, but we're doing it without the large screen. Like you can only buy the standard screen. Do you think people are going to buy it knowing that there's a large DMD coming sometime?
    35:36
    Maybe. okay so I have a Medieval Madness remake a standard one I don't have the LE I have a standard one it plays great my friend has an LE and it plays I don't notice much of a difference or any difference really we both have the upgraded color DMD and so it is the high density pixelated dots yes Would I, if I had the choice between the small one and the big one, would I go the smaller one? Probably not. But I was talking to my friend about it last week. And we brought up the large color DMD. And he said, oh, yeah, I'm going to upgrade. And I thought, you know, I'm probably not. I'm fine with the size of it.
    36:31
    And it's visually spectacular enough for me. I'm sure the upgrade kit, because it'll be a new back box, it'll be new speakers, and it's not going to be cheap.
    36:43
    And even the chip upgrade for Medieval Madness was $400. Yeah. So I've already spent $400 to get the upgraded chip. Am I going to spend another $1,000 to basically get a bigger visual thing? I'm not but I can see them transitioning from that to the expanded one and people saying yeah that's fine I don't feel jipped though having the smaller one let's ask you this question since you're looking for the medieval madness in your dream collection if you get to expo this week and Chicago Gaming is like okay we're releasing this bad boy but it's only the small screen we're holding off on the large screen for right now, you had the money, the cash, would you hold off or would you say, hey, I buying it right now I would buy a used one and wait for the big one Okay That acceptable I take that Ironically I don see much of a price difference between like right now there still isn a big market for the secondary market on these
    37:57
    I really haven't seen a difference. So for the larger screen, did you say that's a wider back box? No, it's the same back box. And so I'm looking at so I have a Medieval Madness remake and I have an Attack from Mars L.E. like the remake. And if you look at the back glass, it's it is a much bigger, bigger screen, an LCD screen that covers almost to the side rails. And so it looks like about two inches deeper on each side. And so it's obviously higher too. Just think of it as like taking your screen and just grabbing the edges and stretching them out in the same aspect ratio.
    38:47
    But it's still the same density though. Like the Attack from Mars LE, it has the higher – like they did pixelation. So they try to keep it period era appropriate, I guess. But it's kind of like going from Nintendo to Genesis where it went from 8-bit to 16-bit where you're getting four dots in the size of one dot. And so you can do a lot more stuff and it looks better. But right now it's the smaller screen. And so it's just more concentrated, I guess. So would the kit be a speaker panel with the color display and the speakers? And you're saying that's $1,000?
    39:33
    Well, that's the rumor. No, that's what we're speculating. The rumor is, and basically, you have to think at it from a Chicago Gaming Company standpoint. If I'm going to swap out my back panel and they're going to manufacture it, So they need a new back panel. They need a new LCD screen and they need two speakers. Like how much of that, a color DMD itself is 400 bucks.
    40:05
    And so if they're going to incorporate that, but still make some money on it, I would guess that it would be a thousand dollars because I spent $400 for the chip that upgraded the two colors from the green.
    40:20
    So you think it's going to be $500 to $600 just for the speakers in the panel? Well, I think for the entire package, I'm guessing. Hey, maybe they'll surprise me. Maybe it'll be a $500 thing, and I'll say, sure, go ahead. Well, and here's the other thing I'm thinking, too. So your release, you do another run of Medieval Madness, right?
    40:42
    Their model right now is do your standard that's what you would have got back in the 90s, your special, which is the larger display screen and the illuminated speaker panel. And then, um, what's a little bit of bells and whistles here and there. And then you've got your LE. Well, the LE is the one with the illuminated speakers and the topper and the, and the extra lighting package. So, so I guess my question is, do you think CGC then comes out and says, Hey, we're going to do the three tier model again, and we're going to make a topper for this. and we're going to do a large display screen. And we're just pretty much going to do like we would with everything else, but just run a fresh new batch on this.
    41:28
    I don't know if they would do that just because you already sold the original LEs. And so would you, just from a PR standpoint, this is the problem that Jersey Jack runs into, right? when they say, hey, this is an LE. But really, when you look at the numbers and saying, well, LE is probably just the standard one that everybody's going to buy. And they're probably not going to run out of the numbers. And they'll come back and just make as many as they need. But with the Medieval Madness, it was an LE. It was 1,000. And they sold out in three days. So can you do that? can you do that from a PR standpoint to say, okay, we're doing another LE that's similar to the Attack from Mars? I have mixed feelings in that. One, I didn't do the LE because they weren't available when I bought my MMR. But I can understand how an original purchaser would say, wow, really? But I also understand. I look at what they did for Attack from Mars and I look at what they did for Monster Bash and that would be really cool to have a similar treatment for medieval madness well that's the other thing i was gonna bring up too like an attack from mars uh all those that bought the standard edition bought it for correct me if i'm wrong five hundred dollars more but when it when monster bash came out and they dropped the price lower for the standard for the monster bash they also did for the attack from mars just because they want to keep their pricing cool so there's a lot of questions that are floating around in my mind because it's like does that mean that when they do the re-release and they do a standard edition they dropped the price of the Medieval Madness then to the standard edition as well? Yeah, I don't know. I paid $8,000 for mine. So I paid $8,000, and then I paid shipping because it wasn't included. So add shipping on top of that, and then I paid $400 for the chip.
    43:26
    And now there is more to Medieval Madness. You have the castle. You have the dragon ramp. you have, you know, there is more there than attack from Mars and monster bash.
    43:42
    And so you could argue that you're paying for more mechs, but, um, I don't know. Cause, uh, I believe attack from Mars was 8,500, uh, for the Ellie. Um, I, I thought it was 83. I thought it was 8,300. Okay. Okay, well, maybe that's what you bought it for. I bought it for $85. No, I didn't buy it for $83. I bought mine for less than that. Yeah, because I know who sold it to you. Yep, exactly. Yeah, that guy's a drunk driver when it comes to collecting.
    44:19
    It's okay. I have two of his games, so we're fine. Okay, so that's our speculation on CGC. Brad, you were talking about... That's the speculation on MMR, but are you... Yes. Do you think they're going to release another game?
    44:36
    I don't think so. I think the nice part for CGC themselves is they can kind of sit back and do what they want. So they're not in a hurry. It's like why hurry to put out the rumored, we're not confirming this, Cactus Canyon, which everyone's hearing that anyway. But do you rush it? I don't know. That's another one too, Brad.
    45:00
    That's another one too, Brad. Is that one that you'd buy? Have you played a Cactus Canyon? I have. I do like it. It would be on the list if it was continued. I'm not as interested in the regular one.
    45:14
    Yeah, they never finished it. So I think right now it's an undetermined. Well, and the rumor is it's not going to be Cactus Canyon continued, but it's actually they've paid the original software designer to come in and finish the rest of the code of what his vision was for Cactus Canyon. Yeah. Hey, I think it'd be great. It's one of those where I'm... I guess I'm less interested in the game because when I look at games and I try to take the nostalgia element out of it, and the reason why Cactus Canyon is so expensive is because of the rarity. It's really not because of the gameplay. It's the rarity. And so when you take the rarity away, is it going to be as valuable? It's the same thing as Big Bang Bar. And there's a really interesting story behind Big Bang Bar. But is it going to hold up if you could buy that for $7,000, $8,000? When you could buy a Jurassic Park premium for that, which arguably is a newer game. It has 20 years more development. But if you have the money in your pocket, which one are you going to buy? so for me i think and this might just be me but i really think cactus canyon is a fun shooter i okay i i don't know if i've ever gotten in far enough to where the code's puttered out and i'm like what's going on here um and like i said i've only played it on my phone so i might not have a better understanding but i've gotten all the way through to the wizard mode um where you because It's just kind of like Attack for Mars and Medieval Madness where you shoot the shots and then you've got the sheriff star in the middle of the play field. And there's five different things you've got to complete to get to the wizard mode. And so, I mean, to me, it wasn't like it was terrible by any means. Like I've played definitely worse out there. I agree. I wouldn't spend – what does Cactus Canyon go for before they announce they're going to remake it? Like $20,000?
    47:22
    Yeah, and it was in the 15 to 20. So I would never pay that much for it, but if they came out and said the standard was the 6 to 6,500, whatever it is, I'd be intrigued, especially if the code's all the way finished. You know, it's interesting, though, because when you look at it, I just looked at the two designers that are listed as doing this game, and I've never even heard of these guys.
    47:49
    I don't even know how to pronounce this guy's name. Matt Correale and Tom Copura. I haven't heard of any of these guys. When I click on their profile, they're still in the industry.
    48:05
    So Tom helped out on Elvira, helped out on Game of Thrones, and it looks like he's in the mechanics design team.
    48:15
    And if you look at – sorry, I'm flipping back and forth. Hold, please. And if you look at Matt, Matt has been listed on – Cactus Canyon was the last game. He did software on Safecracker, No Fear software, World Cup Soccer software, and Star Trek Next Generation software. Those are all really great titles. They are, but it's interesting because that's a big difference between being a designer and a software guy or a designer and a mechanics guy. So that's interesting. that they got together on that. But yeah, it's an estimated price at Cactus Canyon is $11,500, but I bet that's come down significantly after Chicago Game Company got back into the game.
    49:03
    So moving on, new Star Wars artwork coming out. You were talking about this, Brad. You said that you saw it and you'd be excited to play it. Does the artwork change your thoughts on the game? Yeah, it's interesting. I saw the artwork, and then I went into work the next day, and the girl next to me had a Star Wars coffee mug on her desk. And I said, oh, I have something to show you. So I sent her a picture of the new Star Wars pinball artwork. So it seems more shareable, exciting, nostalgic. Back to how I envision Star Wars should be.
    49:39
    The original artwork is Star Wars, but it's not when I think Star Wars art, or I think Spider-Man, or any of the Marvel. type artwork. Pinball is an art piece, right? It's a piece of furniture that has artwork wrapped all around it. The new Star Wars I would want in my family room, not the older version.
    50:00
    I have a, I guess I have a different opinion. I look at the artwork and I think it is, I think it's great. It feels very early Star Wars because I mean, I grew up with Star Wars. So, you know, Star Wars came out when I was three years old and then I I grew up in the heyday of it. I still remember going to Empire Strikes Back when I was seven years old and thinking it was amazing, which was completely different than when I took my seven year old to Last Jedi. And after 30 minutes, he turned to me and said, how much longer now?
    50:34
    So when I look at the the hand drawn art, it feels very early Star Wars, if that makes sense. If you look at the early art release on Star Wars, it's very 70s. It feels very 70s. It feels Luke is there with his chest open and in almost this Conan the Barbarian pose. And it's very – it feels very 70s. And then it transitions when you look at the art for Empire Strikes Back, where the Empire Strikes Back is a little more photorealistic.
    51:17
    And same thing with Return of the Jedi. And so by doing this trilogy game but capturing the art period at the very beginning, like I prefer the new art package. Actually, two of the translights I want to get for your light boxes is I want to get the Star Wars Premium and the Star Wars Original because it looks very Star Wars-esque to me. I also appreciate people saying, no, I really like the old nostalgic one. When I look at that art, it feels a little more like Star Wars Holiday Special to me. But I know that I am in the minority. I completely admit I'm in the minority.
    52:07
    Yeah, the original just feels plain. I mean, it's true to Star Wars, but if I look at it from an art piece perspective or from someone who doesn't really know pinball, this, the new one, is what my wife would want in the basement from an art piece, not the old one. Okay. She loves Lost World pinball because of the artwork. She could care less about the gameplay because it looks good.
    52:33
    and that's completely fair. I like that, that it, it certainly captures a, a stylistic view. I certainly can appreciate that.
    52:46
    Well, what's crazy to me is they, they released the new artwork and there was a handful of star Wars pins up on pin side within eight hours. I mean, it was just got flooded with, with star Wars. I mean, And I guess the resounding thing is people want the new artwork. And so I don't know. I think there's more to that game that needs to be fixed than just slapping a new coat of paint on it. But that's just me. Well, the challenge with it is when you have the artwork, and this is the challenge with working with something like Lucas. And it's the same type of challenge when you're looking at Wonka. And I still hold to my original assessment that Wonka, it looks a little bit like a cereal box. If you were going to go buy Wonka charms, that's basically the art package you were going to get because it feels very much a, okay, we're controlling the brand. We want to be exactly what we say. And so we're going to use that iconic pose of Gene Wilder, but we're going to use it like five times on the game. And that's how I feel the Star Wars. They seem to be locked into, hey, I am going to use those iconic photos. And that's when they talk about the art package feels a little bit like a sticker collage, right? It's if you got, okay, here's Luke, assemble him on the play field, but it's the exact pose that you've seen for 30 years. And I can understand Lucas being very jealous about trying to maintain the integrity of the original trilogy. Not so much Last Jedi, because let's just destroy everything that people like about Star Wars with Last Jedi. But let's talk about the original. And so they tried to keep it as focused as they could without taking risks. I'm really surprised they even went this new way with this hand-drawn art because it's still a very similar pose, but it feels very different. I was going to say you look at the play field. I feel like the play field is the exact same thing, just stylized like the cartoon. It is.
    55:12
    But I don't know. Star Wars is polarizing, and it's whatever floats your boat, really, this time. I don't know what else to really say about Star Wars. I know people are – I don't know. It is what it is. I don't know what else to say. I love the – maybe it's just because I'm an Empire Strikes Back fanboy, but I love the side art on the premium where it has the Battle of Hoth.
    55:36
    That's what I would buy. Oh, yeah. so i want to move on to um i know that man stern's been on fire right now when you guys agree i mean we've had four releases in in 90 days i think is what it is between jurassic park star wars the pin elvira and now if you count star wars with the new artwork i mean that's that's four new pins coming off the line or not new but you know what i mean three three out of the four you know yeah So, and everyone's always, no one's ever satisfied with what's out right now. They want to know what's coming, right? So I've done a little digging for you guys.
    56:17
    So we're going to rewind the clocks. Iron Maiden was released in 2017 from Elwynn. I don't know what you'd count Beatles as. I can remember if it a cornerstone I know Scott and I and Brad have been kind of talking about this off screen It a Kapow title but I just don know if it counted as a cornerstone because of the pricing and everything that was involved
    56:42
    So also in 2017, then you had Deadpool by Gomez, which was originally supposed to be Trudeau, but Gomez stepped in because of – Issues.
    56:52
    Issues. If you don't know, if you want to research it, go for it. Yeah, anyhow. it's icky just move on it's weird to me though that in 2018 we only had Iron Maiden and Deadpool if you don't count Beatles those were the only two cornerstones in that whole year they did release Primus but that was obviously an off shot yeah so and then starting January of this year we had Borg did Monsters we had Richie did Black Knight Sword of Rage Elwynn shows up again with Jurassic Park, and this is that 13 to 14 month window. So if we go by this window, so Elwin, Gomez, Borg, Richie, Elwin, the next one should be Brian Eddy, because I assume, I mean, we all know what assuming means, but I assume Gomez only works on games if it needs to be, because he's just over everything, you know? So we're going to slide in Brian Eddy as the next title that is released.
    57:58
    And it's supposed to be before the end of the year, which would make sense because we're at that 13 to 14-month ratio from when Brian Eddy was announced. Wait, was it 2017 TPF? Yeah. Somewhere around. He pulled like a Steve Jobs, like right before the end of it. He's like, oh, by the way, we hired Brian Eddy. And then Mike dropped and walked off. Yep. And so we're right at that time frame. We should be seeing Brian Eddy's game. And what are the rumored titles we've heard? Like Stranger Things is the one that's gaining traction right now. What do you guys think of Stranger Things?
    58:32
    Yeah, so I've seen all three seasons. I love Stranger Things. I also ask, when in a season or a series do you launch a game versus when have you waited too long to capture the hype of a game? Or is there a window? right well you would know you're the marketing man what would you suggest especially stranger i probably would have done it after season two right so you've had at least a second season that's confirmed demand but still enough hype and energy around season three so i would have launched it this summer uh when season when season three drops season three yeah well they've confirmed season four but that's still they're not on a typical like every year kind of thing it seems like they're about a 18 months apart kind of thing or maybe maybe not that long but still i mean i think the challenge is finding that sweet spot in that they if you have not heard the johnny mnemonic story or um then go and listen to uh the special one podcast or watch the flipping out stream when special one lit uh when ken and bill were talking to George Gomez because it's hilarious because, you know, I'll just quickly rehash the story, but go listen to George tell it. But they were developing the game for Williams. They were developing Johnny Mnemonic and they didn't really see the game, the movie. And they were like, hey, we want to see it. And so finally, the Hollywood said, OK, come out and see. So George flies out and sees and immediately runs to the phone and says, hey, we got to get out of this. This movie sucks. And so that's the challenge that you run into going all in on an unproven title. Now, that's the reason why you're seeing a lot of things like Iron Man. Iron Man came out with Iron Man 2 because Iron Man was a big hit. And so they came out and did that. Now, the question is, when do you do it? Do you have to wait until the nostalgic window comes around, which is basically what happened with Jurassic Park? What happened with Ghostbusters where, you know, it's old but cool, right? And that's the Wreck-It-Ralph line, the nostalgic area. But at the same time, you run into the problem is if you are releasing something early in, if it's a serialized story, then you have such limited things to go on. And if you're taking themes of the story to incorporate into modes, then it's hard unless you're doing like a Jurassic Park where you're doing more of a parallel story and you're using the theme but not necessarily the storyline.
    61:20
    So I don't know. Are you buying the theme? Are you buying the story? Do you want to incorporate it all in? Because you can also find out when it's like, okay, so how about we release an NSYNC pin right now? yeah it's only 20 years too late but you know maybe jt up there singing bye bye bye you know bye bye bye multi-ball i mean that'd be awesome right so here's the other thought do manufacturers should they be thinking about code so say they did stranger things right after season two but they built the code in a way and a game in a way that allowed it to evolve as the seasons evolved so when you updated your code it would now reflect season three season four season five did that be cool i it depends though because you look at season one and it's so much different than season two and you look at season three and it's so much different than season uh the other seasons it's just like what i don't i don't know and i've played the other i don't know if you guys have played the stranger theme video games there's like mobile games and stuff like that. And a lot of those are just like exploring the town of Hawkins and, and you kind of make your own story from it. And I, I like this idea of like Jurassic park. Um, you, you're part of the experience. It's not like you're following the movies. Like there's, there's references to the movies obviously, cause it is a movie, but you're, you're working your way through your own story. And so I would appreciate, I would like a stranger things theme where I'm exploring Stranger Things instead of like, oh, I'm, I don't know, reliving maybe some of the moments. Because in my opinion, Stranger Things isn't necessarily about moments that come to the top of my head that I can think of besides certain characters dying in the TV series. So I just don't know. Game of Thrones, they released Game of Thrones halfway through all their seasons. And I mean, it turned out fine.
    63:24
    I just, I don't know. It's hard because there are, if you go with a linear story mode, which is what, which is what Ghostbusters was locked into, then you are following the same. It's not to choose your own adventure, which is what people want in a pinball machine or a video game. They don't want it. That's pretty old school. That's Mario going from level one to level eight to rescue the princess. And people want to mix it up. They want to have more control over the code. With Ghostbusters, it's always, hey, who brought the dog? And it's the same. It was the same progression and people got tired of it. And if you do a similar paint by numbers where you're going through and saying, well, if you're progressing through the story, people are going to get really tired of it. What made Iron Man different is that you have the different options where it takes the theme. So you can beat the iron monger, but you could also do the whiplash or you could play war machine or you could play drones or. And so and you don't have to do them in a linear fashion, which is what people like in games. So. I guess Lyman's found a way of doing it in Batman 66, where he's been able to incorporate all the different episodes without it feeling too linear.
    64:50
    But I know that this is what's challenging about marketing, right? it's finding that lightning in a bottle well I don't know so some of the other rumored titles James Bond I know we talked about that a couple months ago but from my understanding that's dead in the water I don't know if it was a title just thrown out there to see if it would get enough response to warrant it being made or I personally think some titles get thrown out there just to throw people off the scent I don't know if this is one of that one. I also think that they actually put him out there to see if there's an interest.
    65:28
    How long was Iron Maiden rumored? Legitimately, it was rumored for years until finally it was like, oh, I guess we're really doing this.
    65:38
    The only other one that I know of is Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles. And if Brian Eddy's making Ninja Turtles, sell it to me right now.
    65:48
    I don't even have to look at it. I'm done. I don't know. We've talked about this before. I know you're not a huge Ninja Turtles fan, Scott. Brad, what about you? Are you a Ninja Turtles fan?
    66:00
    Not enough to buy the pinball machine. Ah, dude. Just kidding. It's obviously still a relevant title. I mean, you, Josh, you just barely bought the arcade one-up thing. And so you've been playing that. And so, hey, it's nostalgic in many ways. It takes me back to when I'm 15 and we don't have to deal with adult issues.
    66:26
    It's an escape, right? My challenge with Brian Eddy is, yes, he did Medieval Madness. He did Attack from Mars and he did The Shadow.
    66:38
    And has it been too long? Because that's the question. It's the whole – yes, Paul McCartney was in the Beatles, and they released a wide album. They released Abbey Road. They released all these epic albums, but he really didn't release anything good after that or anything that you would want the entire album. And so has it been too long? Can he get back in the game? I hope so, but I'm not going to do a – I'm not going to buy it based on Brian Eddy. I'm hopeful, but really his two epic games are excellent fan layouts. And I don't think I need another – if it's going to be exactly the same, then I don't need to buy another one. I have Medieval Madness. I have Attack from Mars.
    67:31
    I agree, but I think the problem with Medieval Madness and Attack from Mars is Williams and Data East could already see the writing on the website. wall at that time. Yeah. I can see it. So I'm interested to see what, what he's going to do in the next 20, you know, 20 years later. And he's certainly been in the industry,
    67:53
    but I don't know what, what theme do you know? Besides, I'm not talking about rumored things. What theme do you want Brian Eddie to do?
    68:04
    Me or Brad? Both. Collective you. the royal we yes oh i i wanted to do this i'm sorry and i feel warranted in it wait do you want the aquabats again is that what you're gonna do yes let's let's do aquabats yes please no the reason sounds like a band okay okay see he doesn't even know who they are i know i was joking i know who they Yes, finally. Thank you. They're coming to Utah from us, Sam. November 9th. Anywho. So that arcade machine that's sitting at that 1A, the arcade one-up that I bought for the Ninja Turtles from the 89 and the Turtles in Time, the pre-orders sold out in less than 30 minutes. The two times that they put it up there. And I had to fight to buy this arcade cabinet because it was selling out so quickly. and granted it could be that's less supply which means there's higher demand blah blah blah but point being is is there is obviously a high enough demand for these machines that they mass produce and put in walmart's to the point that they have been selling out of them when they announced it seven months ago so i still think that is very warranted to have an indietrole's pinball machine because i i think the iron's hot there so okay but yeah yeah uh lego would be high my list. Toy Story would be high. Some of the Pixar. Wait a minute. Lego, like, just like the Lego movie, or would you just do, like, original Lego theme?
    69:39
    Um... I think you'd have to do the Lego movie. I don't know if it's Lego movie, but I feel like I would want to pick do you do space Lego, pirate Lego,
    69:50
    can you pick which Lego at the beginning of the game? Oh, that'd be legit. I didn't even think of that.
    69:57
    So it's kind of like the movie where they had the different worlds. Like there was like medieval world and Western world and yeah. How your, how your play sets are different. Right. So you could choose which adventure and then the modes would correlate to the adventure you play. That would be cool. It's like choosing a character, right? Oh yeah. You know, I think that would work. That could work. I never really thought of a Lego movie as an option, but I think it could.
    70:21
    So, so sorry, we cut you off and then toy story. What else? Toy story. Uh, some of the Pixar stuff, some of the animation, I think lends itself well through JJP. I know they've been rumored a long time with Toy Story.
    70:35
    Okay. MacGyver. I feel like we need a MacGyver pin. That'd be legit. I would do it just for the mullet. Just for the mullet. You have to problem solve your way through the game with Swiss Army Knife and bubble gum.
    70:52
    And a roll of duct tape. Gunpowder that he made off shaving something off the wall. Yeah. Nice. Okay.
    71:01
    All right. Yeah. I don't know if there's others. Yeah. Those are probably my top ones. Okay. Honestly, you know, I would just love a Legend of Zelda from Brian Eddy. I think he would take that and just – it would be perfect.
    71:21
    You know, I'd be okay with the Super Mario Brothers. Just straight up Mario Brothers. or a Mario. I think Zelda would be epic, but I think Mario... I want... I just want a Nintendo mashup in there. Super Smash Brothers, maybe?
    71:41
    Well, cool. I think that pretty much covers it for the rumors and stuff. I think one more thing we wanted to bring up. One of the gentlemen you've been talking about, Brad, is Christopher Franchi, and this last week he pretty much bid adieu that him and Stern are parting ways. We want to wish him the best. I can't wait to see what else he comes up with. Because, I mean, Beetlejuice is, I mean, like the Beetlejuice you've been talking about and the Superman, those are all fantastic. He's an amazing artist. So wherever he goes, I just want more because I don't feel like we got enough for Anchi yet. I mean, he's just, his artwork's amazing. Yeah, 100%. Batman 66, that was another game he did that would be on my list for my game. Yeah, that would be a great one. The nice thing about what Chris is doing is that he's putting out those dream themes that you can say, hey, this game is probably not going to be made. But he can do it under the fan art banner. And so he can actually do something like that. So, hey, that would be awesome. Chris should make a – he could make a Legend of Zelda back glass, which would be awesome. I would buy that.
    72:55
    There's a lot of those. Masters of the Universe, right? Add it to the list. That would be great. Only if it's Dolph Lundgren, though.
    73:06
    Never quite figured out what Skeletor really wanted that whole time. He's a skeleton. What does he care? Oh, my goodness. All righty, guys. We've been running for over an hour now. We've been almost an hour and 20 minutes. Let's let's I, is there any other, there's nothing else I can think of. I'm excited for expo this week. What about you guys?
    73:28
    Yeah. Super, super stoked. Josh coming out for it. I wish I just won't be able to be out there this week. Yeah, we, I can't do it. It's it's there's already two big things at work that take people away and I can't sneak away for doing something hobby related, but I am planning on coming to Texas pinball festival. So that will be on my horizon. So you should come down and break bread with us there. Sounds great. All right. Hey, tell them again where they can get your stuff. Yeah, litframes.com. You can email me at litframeshop at gmail.com or come check out my booth at Expo Thursday, Friday, or Saturday this coming week. So 17th, 18th, and 19th of October. Yep. You guys better be there. We want pictures. I don't care who you are. You better start posting pictures to our Facebook. Right, Scott? Yeah, sure.
    74:29
    Whatever. Oh, my goodness. Well, I care. We want to keep it safe for work. Yes. Keep it safe for work on our page, but show us what's going on at Expo because all of us are going to be working except for Brad. I'll still be working. Yeah, you'll be working the booth instead of working.
    74:49
    Well, cool. You know what? I'm going to insert our new outro music right now. Yeah. Thanks again for joining us, guys. You've been tuned in to the Loser Kid Pinball Podcast. If you want to get a hold of us, hit us up at Facebook or at LoserKidPinballPodcast at gmail.com. We'd love to hear from you. Scott, tell them your outro. I don't know.
    75:14
    Tell them something. See you later. Later, guys. Bye.