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Ep 84: Rushing for Whoppers

LoserKid Pinball Podcast·podcast_episode·1h 13m·analyzed·Apr 28, 2022
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claude-haiku-4-5-20251001 · $0.031

TL;DR

Rush pinball artist Michael Barnard talks art process, design challenges, and fan reaction to the game's visual design.

Summary

Michael Barnard, artist for Stern's Rush pinball machine, discusses his background in commercial art, the transition to pinball design, and the challenges of incorporating Rush's diverse 40-year album catalog into a single machine aesthetic. He explains the creative process with Stern, addresses community criticism of the band member portrayals, and details the complexity of designing artwork for playfield inserts and cabinet graphics.

Key Claims

  • Michael Barnard graduated from Columbus College of Art and Design in 1998 and discovered that fellow Stern artist Jeremy Packer (Zombie Yeti) attended the same school the same year

    high confidence · Michael Barnard, discussing his art education and connections within the pinball industry

  • Barnard worked at a T-shirt company in Florida for 17 years as an art director before launching his freelance company in 2016

    high confidence · Michael Barnard, describing his career progression

  • Rush was not initially familiar to Barnard before joining the project; he knew only 4-5 songs and had to study albums, documentaries, and lyrics to prepare

    high confidence · Michael Barnard, on his pre-project knowledge of Rush

  • The decision to use cartoon-style depictions of the Rush band members came from the comic book adaptation of 2112, which most Rush fans were unaware of

    high confidence · Michael Barnard and Josh Roop, discussing design choices and fan reaction

  • Stern provided Barnard with marked-up templates showing where inserts, plastics, and targets would be placed, but gave him significant creative freedom on the overall aesthetic

    high confidence · Michael Barnard, describing the design collaboration process with Stern

  • Barnard worked on the Rush project for almost a year during COVID, when Stern employees were working remotely and the factory had plastic barriers between workstations

    high confidence · Michael Barnard, on project timeline and working conditions

  • Three different backglass art packages were created with the Premium version featuring a steampunk design based on Neil Peart's drum kit

    high confidence · Michael Barnard, describing the three art variants and their specific design themes

  • The most common fan criticism focused on the portrayal of Neal (Peart) as resembling 'Lemmy' or a 1970s magician, and Geddy's inclusion of a goatee/soul patch from the wrong era

    high confidence · Michael Barnard and Josh Roop, discussing post-release community feedback

Notable Quotes

  • “I think what we did on this one was we just kind of went with my style and just tried to pull in as many things as we could...Rush fans are going to look at it, and they're going to be studying it. They're going to be looking for little things hidden in there and, you know, kind of critiquing it. So we took it very serious.”

    Michael Barnard @ ~29:00 — Demonstrates awareness of the Rush fanbase's high expectations and attention to detail in the artwork

  • “And I was warned about them and everything, but I have to be honest with you, though. I got a ton of messages from people, just direct messages, telling me how much they liked it...there was way more love than hate for it.”

    Michael Barnard @ ~44:00 — Addresses fan backlash while emphasizing the positive reception outweighed criticism

  • “When I first started the project, I feel like looking back on it, I was kind of just doing a little bit and waiting on feedback and doing a little bit more until finally they were like, hey, just go with it. Throw anything out there that you can think of.”

    Michael Barnard @ ~35:00 — Reveals Stern's collaborative approach to creative direction, giving artists freedom to experiment

  • “I just kind of took it and, you know, they marked up...they said, you know, down here we're going to have, you know, five or six of the songs. So we want some graphics that go with, you know, these particular songs, whatever imagery you can think of.”

    Michael Barnard @ ~50:00 — Describes the technical constraints and creative parameters of pinball playfield design

  • “Honestly the the amount of detail and parts and pieces involved in something like this I've never worked on anything that had this many uh elements to it...I worked on this project for almost a year and uh you know there's there's a lot of files a lot of stuff involved with it.”

    Michael Barnard @ ~54:00 — Reveals the scope and complexity of pinball artwork production compared to other commercial art

Entities

Michael BarnardpersonJosh RooppersonMatt Scott LarsonpersonZach SharpepersonJeremy PackerpersonRandy MartinezpersonHugh SymepersonRushorganizationStern Pinballcompany

Signals

  • ?

    design_philosophy: Barnard discusses the challenge of incorporating Rush's 40-year diverse album catalog (19 studio albums with wildly different visual styles) into a single cohesive machine aesthetic, settling on his personal style as the unifying element

    high · Michael Barnard explains: 'Rush is different in that even though they had the same art director, each album was completely different...when you're tying that into one machine, how in the world do you incorporate 19 different studio albums into one pin?'

  • ?

    design_philosophy: The Rush band had direct approval over key design decisions including the use of cartoon character portrayals from the 2112 comic book series and Geddy's anachronistic goatee/soul patch design element

    high · Barnard: 'they were kind of counting on people remembering that...this is what the band wanted' and 'the thing that makes Geddy stand out...So we just kind of decided last minute, we'll go ahead and put that on there.'

  • ?

    content_signal: Michael Barnard appears as guest on Loser Kid Pinball Podcast episode 84 to discuss the Rush game artwork and his first pinball design experience

    high · Episode title and opening credits identify this as Loser Kid Pinball Podcast Episode 84 with Michael Barnard

  • ~

    sentiment_shift: Community reaction to Rush artwork, particularly the band member cartoon portrayals, shifted from initial criticism (especially regarding Neil's likeness and Geddy's era-incorrect goatee) to acceptance over time

    medium · Barnard: 'I don't hear as much about it anymore in the beginning. I think people are used to it. I think it really is totally fine.' Also: 'trolls came out for sure...but I got a ton of messages from people, just direct messages, telling me how much they liked it'

Transcript

groq_whisper · $0.221

0:00
thanks for tuning into the loser kid pinball podcast we are on episode 84 this is josh roop with me my co-captain as always scott larson and scott let's talk about that sweet sweet sponsor of ours all right well uh flipping out pinball if you have that desire to uh outfit your game room uh contact zach and nicole i actually looked and they seem to have some stuff in stock now. So that's actually pretty good. And if you want to really blingify your game, they have art blades, they have shooter rods. I saw they had some toppers.
0:39
So, and you know how much I like toppers. But there are different ways that you can do it, and I know I just have some banners coming. So if you want to have that cool way of decorating your game room, I actually just picked up a rush banner. So that's going in my game room so nice well and honestly they have a couple mandos in stock looks like they have a gnr or two if they might be gone by time we're talking about this but you know what hit up zach he's got some stock uh and he's willing to work with you so like i said i've i he's always taking care of me i've had a couple warranty issues but you know what he calls me we get taken care of and my machine's backing up up and running within seconds it feels like you know As soon as possible. Absolutely. So luckily, it's just been like a loose screw or something like that. So Mechagodzilla lost his belly button. Oh, the tummy grab. The tummy grab. It's so sad. All right. Well, let's not be rude. Let's get to our guest for today, Scott.
1:45
And I know that you love Rush. I do. And everybody has said, you know, we've taken too long of a break from talking about Rush. So we are going to dive back into the deep end. And this time we are talking with the artist of Rush, Michael Barnard, and of Sunburn Designs. So this is his first pinball machine. So we want to welcome him to the show and then really talk about the process because this is, I guess, pinball art is way different than typical commercial art. So welcome to the show, Michael. Hey, thanks, you guys. So you are based out of Southern California, is that correct? Yes. Okay Moved out here about a year and a half ago Born and raised in Dayton, Ohio Spent about 17 years in Florida And then we moved out west Okay Okay, what prompted the move?

  • Barnard received direct messages from many fans expressing appreciation despite early online trolling and criticism of the band member artwork

    high confidence · Michael Barnard, reflecting on fan response to the release

    • Flip N Out Pinballcompany
    Columbus College of Art and Designorganization
    Iams Pet Food Companycompany
    Toppscompany
    Neil Peartperson
    Geddy Leeperson
    Rush (game)game
    Godzillagame
    Loser Kid Pinball Podcastorganization
    ?

    design_innovation: The Premium edition of Rush features a steampunk-themed backglass design centered on Neil Peart's drum kit imagery, which was immediately approved by Stern

    high · Barnard: 'When we got the idea to kind of do something based on Neil's drum kit and kind of go with the steampunk, everyone loved that right out of the gate. So I think pretty early on, they knew that they were going to use that for the Premium Edition'

  • ?

    personnel_signal: Michael Barnard discovered that fellow Stern artist Jeremy Packer (Zombie Yeti) attended the same art school (Columbus College of Art and Design) in the same year, despite never crossing paths during their studies

    high · Barnard: 'I went over to Jeremy Packer...and I noticed he went to the same school I did. And not only that, he went the same year that I did...And I shot him a message and we ended up chatting...very awesome'

  • ?

    manufacturing_signal: Rush artwork was developed during COVID when Stern had employees working remotely with plastic barriers between workstations, extending the project timeline to approximately one year

    high · Barnard: 'I worked on this game during covid...it was kind of odd...they had all the you know the plastic up between all the employees and stuff it was kind of a lot of the guys were working from home'

  • ?

    product_strategy: Rush features three distinct backglass art packages for different cabinet tiers (Pro, Premium, Limited Edition), each with unique visual themes that were developed concurrently

    high · Barnard: 'there's the comic book style one...that became its own package. And then of course the other one with the Star Burst logo for the other one' with steampunk for Premium

  • ?

    community_signal: Despite Stern's emphasis on detailed backglass artwork, the immediate community focus was on the playfield center depictions of band members rather than the elaborate backglass designs

    high · Barnard: 'I kind of thought...the back glasses, you know, would be the things that everyone would kind of focus on...And then it was like, when it came out, like everyone just, they dialed right in on the center of the play field'

  • ?

    licensing_signal: Rush maintained creative control over specific artwork elements including the use of comic book character likenesses and the inclusion of anachronistic styling elements like Geddy's soul patch

    high · Barnard discussing Geddy's design: 'the thing that makes Geddy stand out, you know, is those round sunglasses...the goatee, you know, or the little solenoid patch there. So we just kind of decided last minute, we'll go ahead and put that on there' and 'It's a time machine, right? You're from all eras.'

  • ?

    technology_signal: Pinball machine artwork production involves extensive digital file management; Barnard filled external hard drives with design files over the course of the year-long project

    medium · Barnard: 'I worked on this project for almost a year and uh you know there's there's a lot of files a lot of stuff involved with it...you're gonna fill this up soon and i could have for sure'

    • 2:37
    You know, after Besides the weather and the sunshine and the I've always wanted to live out here You know, we had one final season of hurricanes And we had lightning strike a palm tree in our backyard And it went straight into the house And like, we were just kind of like, you know what? we're done with this uh let's just move out west and you know i kind of grew up uh you know curious about what it was like out here i always wanted to come out we took a trip out here a few years prior and fell in love with it and you know my wife had lived in san diego for a while and had always wanted to come back so we just decided to make the move and yeah i love it out here all right yeah yeah so when did you start getting into art like what made you decide hey this is my full-time gig. And if you want to go look online, so I'm going to plug you really quick here, Michael, you can go on Facebook and he has like a super group of fans. You can go check out all his artwork there. And what I'm impressed with, like I said, I want to know what got you into art, but also it seems like you've diversified too. You've got a lot of cartoony stuff, but it's also like you've got some realism stuff there as well. Yeah. I've worked on a lot of stuff. So, you know, as far as when I got into it, I mean, I always loved to draw when I was a kid. My parents were really good about kind of nurturing that. I remember them putting me in art classes and stuff when I was, you know, six, seven, eight years old. And it just kind of became my thing. That was what I always kind of fell back on.
    4:07
    You know, I always enjoyed sitting at the table drawing stuff. You know, I wasn't the greatest student in high school. So, you know, when I got towards my senior year and it was time to start figuring out what I wanted to do with my life, That was really the only path that I ever really saw. So I ended up applying for the Columbus College of Art and Design, which was about an hour away from where I lived. And I got a scholarship there. So I just kind of took that path. And, yeah, it worked out great. So I just kind of always knew that's what I wanted to do. So if I wasn't doing that, I had no idea what I'd be doing with my life. now you went there with another uh famous artist correct i did yeah i it's funny i had no idea and uh you know once the the rush game came out and i was kind of allowed to kind of come out from the shadows and like introduce myself to everyone you know you're not really supposed to say anything you got to kind of keep quiet while you're working on that stuff um when the game came out i started reaching out to some of the other artists uh for stern you know randy martinez and some of those guys just to kind of say hi and introduce myself. And I went over to Jeremy Packer, which is, you know, zombie Eddie and I was on his Facebook page and I was looking at it and I noticed he went to the same school I did. And not only that, he went the same year that I did. And I was like, Oh my God, I couldn't believe it. And I shot him a message and we ended up chatting, you know, quite a bit. And we had a lot of the same friends in common, just somehow we just, we never crossed paths. I've never met him before. If I did, I didn't remember him. But yeah, we went to the same school together and everything. It's one of the odds. So yeah, he's a really cool guy too. We chat quite a bit on there. He's really awesome. Yeah, Jeremy's great. We've had him on the show too. But it sounds like a very specialized art school though, right? You go to the school because that's what you want to do. Yeah, it's a very traditional art school. At least it was when I went there. It was a lot of the, you know, figure drawing classes and portraits and perspectives. And, you know, everything's geared towards art. You know, even the history classes or art history, everything's geared towards either, you know, advertising or illustration majors and that kind of stuff. So, yeah, it was a great school.
    6:35
    OK, so you you finish that off and then you've been graduated for a few years. So what did you do between then and now? So right out of school, I ended up with an internship at the Iams Pet Food Company, which was like a big company in Dayton, Ohio.
    6:52
    Nothing great. I was there for a couple of months and then I ended up getting a job for a place that did ads for the Yellow Pages, which is like torturous. It was awful, but it taught me to use Photoshop and Illustrator and kind of start doing the digital stuff, which was really just kind of coming around when I graduated art school in 98. so it kind of gave me the chance to use those programs every day. I made it about a year, and then at that point I was done with Ohio, and I just decided to move to Florida.
    7:25
    And I went down there, and I interviewed with a T-shirt company down there, and I got on board with those guys, and that was probably one of the best moves I ever made. It was certainly very lucky. There's a million T-shirt companies out there that do all kinds of stuff, But this place in particular had a real emphasis on really detailed digital artwork. And I got on with those guys and I learned from the artists that had been there, you know, for years and kind of picked up on their styles and how they did stuff. And that just opened all the doors in the world. So I ended up becoming art director there. I was there for 17 years. at some point I started kind of venturing out looking for freelance work realizing I could make more money at home you know just in the evenings watching tv while I was working than I was making all day at you know at work so my wife went back to school and got her master's degree and as soon as she got a job I left there and launched my own company and that was I want to say 2016 and it's been going strong ever since I was going to say, looking at your portfolio, it looks like you're a man of the 80s. I'm seeing a lot of Garbage Pal kids, Goonies 2, the Muppets are in here, we have Christmas Story. Is that what you specialize in? What draws you to the 80s? It is. I'm just a pretty nostalgic guy. I mean, I obviously grew up in the 80s and I had a great childhood and I'm very fond of that kind of stuff. So whenever I have a chance to kind of go out and do my own artwork or create something just for fun, that's kind of what I fall back on. and I've found that there's a lot of other people that are into that, obviously, too. So I just kind of created a little niche for myself with that and I got on board with Topps and worked on the Garbage Pail Kids and that kind of stuff and I do a lot of stuff for some 80s rock bands and that kind of stuff. So it's just something I know a lot about, so it's kind of a good fit for me. Okay, so doing all these projects, however, were you into pinball? So I want to go through the process of how you got to pinball art because we're talking – it's a couple niche areas down from just being a commercial artist. Sure. Yeah. No, I've – again, growing up in the 80s, I was, of course, all into arcades and that kind of stuff. And I didn't really know much about pinball, but I knew who Stern was. and it's just something I always thought would be really cool, especially, you know, we moved out west. There's a lot of casinos and stuff out here. So, you know, you're walking around looking at all these games with these bright backlit digital art and stuff. And I just remember thinking, God, I could do that. That would be really cool. And I think my style would fit really well with that kind of thing. And, you know, I believe I had tried to get a hold of Stern a number of times. And, you know, it's one of those places they probably get hit up all the time by people and didn't hear anything back. But in the end, it's really all about timing, and I must have reached out to them at just the right time, and they got back to me and they liked my work and I just started having conversations with them. And then that was right around the time that they were looking for someone to start on the Rush game, and I kind of got my foot in the door. So, yeah, it just kind of came together. It worked out really well. so i mean rush is they had their heyday in the or the late 70s early 80s i mean really their big coming of age is uh is moving pictures right yeah and so i would say that most people are familiar with them through that album how familiar with rush were you before you got invited to try out for the project honestly not super familiar i mean i knew who they were i knew four or five of the songs. I knew they had a pretty fanatical base. You know, I can remember in high school, kids wearing Rush shirts and stuff. And it was, you know, I knew of them. I knew some of their stuff. I could definitely recognize their sound. But honestly, if you had asked me about their albums and stuff, I wouldn't have known, wouldn't have known that much. It wasn't until I got on board with the project that, you know, I had to kind of dive into the, you know, watching the documentaries and reading over lyrics and studying the album covers and that kind of stuff. You know, it was, it was definitely new to me, I would say, but, uh, but I liked it. You know, I, I feel like rushes, you know, it's no secret. They're kind of divisive. A lot of people love them or hate them. I'm kind of not really either. Like I, I like them more than I, I wouldn't say I don't like them. I do like them. I just, I didn't know that much about them. And, you know, after listening to all the stuff that I listened to, to get ready for the project, you know, I really started liking them. So yeah. I would say most people, if they don't like Rush, they at least have a respect for Rush. Yeah. And I totally understand that is that they do have a unique sound and some people really like it and some people don't, but that, that's certainly part of it. But Rush is an interesting band in that they've actually been with Hugh Syme, who was their art director for pretty much their entire career, I think, except for their first album,
    12:48
    the standard Rush logo that people think about that's now on the back glass. But each album was totally different. And so when you're making a pinball machine, you're trying to incorporate all those albums. And I would say most bands tend to have a theme or a vibe that they're consistent with. And if you look at the Metallica brand, you could probably pick out a style that they stick with. Same with Iron Maiden. Iron Maiden was stuck with Derek Riggs. Not stuck, but they were tied to a Derek Riggs-esque vibe for a while. And that's what people identify that band with. Rush is different in that even though they had the same art director, each album was completely different from either photorealism to surrealist landscapes. Everything was so different, but when you're tying that into one machine, how in the world do you incorporate 19 different studio albums into one pin? it's definitely tricky uh you know especially when one of the emphasis on the game is the time machine element which is playing up all of those things from across their entire catalog so basically i think what we did on this one was we just kind of went with my style and just tried to pull in as many things as we could um obviously there are three designs for the back glass which is where we started um we tried to kind of play up the time machine element in each of those um And then just pull in different things from each one. It was tricky, for sure, to pull in different things. I studied those album covers over and over and over. Sometimes there's just not a whole lot there to pull from. There's rabbits coming out of hats on Presto. There's just different things that really didn't have anything to do with the other ones. So it was tricky. You don't want to end up with just a design where you just have a bunch of random stuff scattered across it. So it was tricky, but, you know, I feel like we did a pretty good job pulling that together and just trying to keep in mind that, you know, the fans are going to look at this. Rush fans are going to look at it, and they're going to be studying it. They're going to be looking for little things hidden in there and, you know, kind of critiquing it. So we took it very serious, but I think we did a pretty good job pulling all the elements in there. so when they pulled you onto the project did they give you kind of free reign or do rush have a direction they wanted to go with and said hey this is what we're looking for or what how did you go about that so yeah it was really more free reign than i think i realized at first because i'm i'm used to working on a lot of t-shirt designs where things are very specific you know car shows where you know the client says i want these three cars and a sunset you know you kind of know up front With this one, when I first started the project, I feel like looking back on it, I was kind of just doing a little bit and waiting on feedback and doing a little bit more until finally they were like, hey, just go with it. Throw anything out there that you can think of. They were very, very open to letting me kind of run with stuff. They had a little bit of an idea of some of the things. They knew that they wanted to play up that first album cover with the light speed graphics coming off of it. They knew they wanted to do something with the cartoon characters from the comic books.
    16:25
    They had a little bit of direction on that kind of stuff, but as far as the layouts and everything, they kind of left it up to me, which was nice. It's like anything. I would work up some rough sketches and send it to them, and they would send it back and say, go with this or maybe less of that or more of this. They kind of walk you through it. But yeah, they gave me a little bit more freedom than I would have thought, which is nice. So did you also kind of have – because you talked about you had a little bit of arcade background and whatnot. did also Stern kind of have to say hey we need like some artwork specific to the rules and stuff right here and what not like how does that come into play as well because obviously you need inserts and stuff in there as well yeah yeah they definitely will kind of give you a template you know where the inserts would go and they would say you know down here in the bottom center we're going to feature these five or six songs so you know maybe put this here and that there you know that kind of stuff kind of changes as you go.
    17:27
    You just have to kind of be ready to modify things. But yeah, they do kind of give you a little bit of a direction as far as what kind of stuff to put in certain areas. And then it's up to you how you want to pull that off.
    17:41
    Now, you did bring up the comic series, which I would say even most Rush fans had no idea that there was a comic series. I have the 2112 release, and it actually has the album that went through comic book style. I would say that the average Rush fan who hasn't been keeping up with them would have no idea that exists, really. One of the more dividing points of it, and we've talked about it before offline, but the characters the Rush characters that are in the center of the playfield So tell me more about that because I tell you the criticism that I heard and then you can give the counterpoint But one they thought that Neal they thought that looked they didn't like the way Neal was portrayed. They also said Getty is the 90s version of Getty with the sole patch and the round glasses when, if you're looking at the 21-12 back cover, it's different. So you're basically blending in about three different styles. However, this is what the band wanted, right? Yes. So tell me more about that incorporation. So the decision was made, I think, early on that, yeah, we're going to have to show these guys on the play field. So how do we do that, especially when, like you said, we're covering such a big era of work with different styles, different looks and that kind of thing. So I think fairly early on, the decision was made to go with the cartoon style from the comic books. And I don't know if maybe they were just kind of counting on people remembering that and going, oh, OK, that's just another part of their their catalog. so which of course when it came out I don't think anybody hardly remembered those comics so they thought that these were made from scratch which they kind of were but they were modeled after the comic book yeah I saw the comments like the day this came out we were actually in Hawaii and I remember waking up and jumping on my phone like I can't wait to see what people think about this oh they're out in full force that was definitely the thing that everyone jumped on and uh it was kind of like you know it it was what the band wanted at the same time it was kind of like you know we had to kind of make a decision when we were doing this the comment i saw the most was that you know neil looked like uh some magician or somebody from the 70s but you know i you know i had looked like the guy from uh oh oh crap now it's gonna ace of spades band oh let me yeah yeah he looked like lemmy is what i thought i got it looked like lemmy um yeah but that actually it does look like an early neil it really does there are pictures of neil that you're like yeah if you didn't know neil back in the mid 70s that's pretty much what he looked like yeah i mean we you know i used photo references to to get those when in it you know it did it looked just like him but when it was all said and done you know getty didn't look like anything spectacular. He just looked like a, you know, the thing that makes Getty stand out, you know, is those round sunglasses. It is the goatee, you know, or the little soul patch there. So we just kind of decided last minute, we'll go ahead and put that on there. And I actually thought that would be the thing that people would point out the most and say, well, this is the wrong era. If the other guys are looking like this, then he wouldn't have had this.
    21:16
    It's a time machine, right? You're from all eras. Yeah. So in the end, it was just kind of like, you know, this is what we're going to put here. You know, everybody at Stern seemed to love it and it was fine. And then, of course, when it came out, that was there's always going to be something that people kind of go after. And it turns out that that was pretty much the thing on this one. So, you know, it was kind of like, well, you know, it's like it's what they wanted. It's you know, we were happy with it. I think it flows with the design pretty well. I don't hear as much about it anymore in the beginning. I think people are used to it. I think it really is totally fine. And really, if you look at Aerosmith, like the cartoon Aerosmith band back there, I would say it's a fairly common reference that you would say, yeah, that's just a cartoon version of the band. Yeah.
    22:07
    You know what, though? Looking at this artwork, though, it's just, I love the Ellie back glass. Your play with the contrast of the hot and the colds. I read like the hots feel very warm. It's just like, it's, it looks so good with the snow and everything. And it just, it really, I mean, this is a really good quality art and, and it's, in my opinion, it pushes pinball forward. I mean, we've had some interesting art designs. I mean, it's gotten better, especially over these last five years, but for people to complain about something that a licensor wants and, and it's their game, they should, they should have every right to do whatever they want with it. And, you know, I just, it, you look at this and it's like, this is a heck of a lot better than the Photoshop cut and paste of the two thousands. Like this is just astounding. I, I don't know. I kind of thought, you know, when I was working on it, I kind of thought the back glasses, you know, would be the things that everyone would kind of focus on. And that's the kind of stuff you would see shared online and that kind of stuff. And then it was like, when it came out, like everyone just, they dialed right in on the center of the play field and I was like, but you know, I did, I will say, you know, the trolls came out for sure, but trolls wake up early, just in case you wonder, like trolls are the first people up in the morning. And I was warned about them and everything, but I got to be honest with you, though. I got a ton of messages from people, just direct messages, telling me how much they liked it. And you know, that, that was kind of nice. Like I, a lot of people took time to kind of message me and say, Hey, I saw some comments and people are coming down on this. You know, I think it's awesome. I think it's cool. You know, so there was way more love than hate for it. So, you know, in the end, I just wanted Stern to be happy. And I think they were. So that's really what mattered the most. So tell me about the three different art packages. I mean, when you're doing this project, if you're unfamiliar with pinball, this may be the first time you realize that there's actually three different versions of this game. and you're going to be developing an art package that will go to all three. Yeah. So what was your approach for each one of them? Did you do three art packages and then just decide which fit best with which one, or did you have a goal for each of the art packages? More or less, that's kind of what we did. We just kind of came up with what we thought would look cool. Again, the idea was to kind of bring that time machine and different elements across the different back classes. we just kind of worked on them. I kind of bounced back and forth between the three of them.
    24:43
    When we got the idea to kind of do something based on Neil's drum kit and kind of go with the steampunk, everyone loved that right out of the gate. So I think pretty early on, they knew that they were going to use that for the LE, which came out really awesome. And then, of course, there's the comic book style one. That was a direction to take to put the band on the side of the cabinets. So that kind of became its own package. And then of course the other one with the start, you know, the burst logo for the other one. So, you know, I just kind of worked on them as I went and, you know, as I would turn them in, I would kind of get feedback and they'd say, you know what, I think we're going to use this for the premium. Let's use this for the pro let's go this, you know, so I kind of just fed them art as I did it. And they, I think they have such a good eye for that kind of stuff. They just kind of knew, you know, what they wanted to use each one for. so so obviously you've been up to stern right yes i went there last summer awesome so what game has you you are i assume you got to play some of the games up there which one stands out to you so far um honestly i didn't really get to play many while i was there it was kind of odd i mean i worked on this game during covid so okay yeah they were basically they just reopened i don't know if they ever completely shut down or not i know when i was there they had all the you know the the plastic up between all the employees and stuff it was kind of a lot of the guys were working from home and that kind of thing but um greg walked me around and showed me everything it is have you guys been have you guys been to that factory it is it is we haven't been able to tour yet so yeah we went we went uh last october but they weren't allowing anyone to go tour yet so Yeah, it is impressive in there, how they do it. And they did have a section with some of the games there. I didn't, you know, I don't think I even played anything while I was there. Honestly, I was just kind of in awe looking around. I did get to go to an arcade in Los Angeles not too long ago that had a whole bunch of the Stern games there, kind of just lined up. It was one of those free play, you know, you pay like 20 bucks to get in and they just turn you loose in there. And they had the Rush game there, so that's where I got to play that. But, yeah, I played Godzilla and ACDC and Jurassic Park, all those games there. They're Stranger Things. Yeah, it's just awesome.
    27:07
    So how does one go about designing a play field? Because it's not like you have a blank canvas. You're actually designing around mechanisms, around ball paths.
    27:18
    And so how did you approach that, and did you get any advice from other artists? um well no advice from other artists just because you know this is uh these jobs are like super top secret when you're working on them so like i couldn't really reach out to anybody or anything but um but the guys at stern were you know they were great they knew this was my first one um so they they kind of walked me through it i would get directions sometimes i wouldn't even understand you know they would say you put this down here in this return lane and this over they would use terminology and stuff and i'd have to be like well hold on a second i don't know what you're talking about or where you're talking about. So they would go in there with like a red marker and kind of mock it up and say, this is what I'm talking about, you know, over here. As far as designing the play field, you know, by the time it comes to me, it's already kind of figured out where all the inserts are going, where the plastics are going. You know, the engineers and those guys have been playing around with that stuff already for quite a while by the time it gets to me.
    28:17
    So, you know, I just kind of took it and, you know, they marked up like we were talking about earlier, they said, you know, down here we're going to have, you know, five or six of the songs. So we want some graphics that go with, you know, these particular songs, whatever imagery you can think of. We definitely, you know, we want to have the portraits of the guys. We'll put those here.
    28:39
    We were going heavy with the steampunk stuff. So we're going to do that on all the plastics. You know, I just kind of, you know, immediately when I looked at it, I just saw the owl at the bottom center and that worked out good with the eyes you know um so yeah they kind of turned me loose on that one it was pretty wide open i just kind of threw some stuff down and tried to make it look cool and have it kind of fade into you know outer space a little bit towards the top and kind of pull in some elements from all three cabinets and um yeah it just kind of came together i think it worked out pretty good so what surprised you the most about this whole process um honestly the the amount of detail and parts and pieces involved in something like this i've never worked on anything that had this many uh elements to it you know from the the side blades to the you know the back panels and all the little plastics and the targets and and all that kind of stuff i when i tell people i worked on a pinball machine i don't know that you know unless you've been around a modern pinball machine you probably don't really have any idea just how involved they are like how many how many how many parts and pieces are on there i mean i worked on this project for almost a year and uh you know there's there's a lot of files a lot of stuff involved with it so yeah that was kind of that surprised me like how much was involved um start and send your own external hard drive you're gonna fill this up soon and i could have for sure and i'm I'm assuming you did even all the small stuff, like the drop targets on the left and the stand-up targets on the right. Every ounce of it, yep. Where did the cork flying into the black hole come from? That was on, again, I'm not a huge Rush guy. I didn't know that much at the time. That was on something that we had looked up. I don't know if it was from a tour poster or a greatest hits. I can't remember where that came from. It definitely came from something Rush-related that we found, you know, when, you know, looking through things. But it just kind of fit, you know, it just kind of worked there. So I put it in there. And, you know, there's definitely some goofy stuff on there, some, you know, what they kind of refer to as just Canadian humor, you know, with the hoot again and, you know, some of that kind of stuff in there. So, yeah, the Korg is, it is odd. It's the first time I've been asked about it. I just kind of saw it somewhere and put it in there. and I don't know, it just kind of fit. Well, it does fit a little bit for people who are unfamiliar with Cygnus X-1. That's going to be one of the end songs, right? So there's Cygnus X-1 and Cygnus X-2. Cygnus is the first identified or at least suspected black holes. And so that's why, like when I saw that and I saw the court going into the black hole, I thought that was, that sounded very Rush humor-esque. Yeah. Yeah, it just kind of fit. I don't know. It just worked.
    31:46
    So now that you're out in the public and whatever, and people know that you work with Stern and whatnot, are you going to be going to any of these pinball events? May you come and hang out with some of these people that love your artwork? Yeah, I would love to go. I didn't really realize how big the Texas festival was until I started seeing all the pictures online. And I knew about it. I didn't really know about it in time. and I honestly I felt kind of weird like I've only worked on one like I don't know yet if I'm sort of a one-off you know or if there's more I just felt kind of weird trying to go there and set up like a space or something there but next year I would definitely go and you know I know there's one in Chicago I think in the fall unfortunately falls right on my wife's birthday so that one's going to be a little tough to make it to as well but um i would definitely like to go to the texas one next year though who doesn't want deep dish pizza on their birthday that's true yeah come on we'll eat deep dish pizza and then and the nice part is is your 80s repertoire fits right in with the demographic of pinball owners so even with just having the rush you i guarantee You brought the Garbage Pile Kids stuff and whatnot, which, by the way, I've got to ask, did you do the art for the beer or whatever it was that came out with the Garbage Pile Kids that were the pinball ones? It's funny. I didn't do that. I saw that online, and I was like, Stern is sharing this. I don't know. It was kind of weird. It was like, that's my thing, and there's Stern sharing it. No, I didn't do that art. I don't know. I don't know who did that. I don't know if they – If they thought it was you? Because I sent you a link. I sent you the picture and I basically was thinking that was you. That's why I sent it to you. No, that wasn't me. I don't know where that was from. I don't know if that was like legit licensed stuff or if that was just somebody. Homebrew. Yeah.
    33:41
    Homebrew. That wasn't me. Nice. So what's on the horizon for you? Honestly, right now it is a game of catch up. I have got more work on my plate than you can imagine. I just took a trip to Ohio to see family, and I was gone for about two weeks, and I just came home. I've got jobs stacked up a mile high, so nothing too exciting. A lot of, you know, T-shirt designs. I've got some stuff for some rock bands. I've got some car show designs. I do a lot of disc golf stuff. I don't know how familiar you guys are with the disc golf.
    34:19
    That's kind of become my big thing as well, so I do a lot of that. I've got a lot of custom jobs for that. I've got my own line of discs. I try and put one out, you know, once a month or so. I'm a little behind on that. So, yeah, it's really just a lot of stacked up work to get caught up on, you know.
    34:38
    What was your favorite part of this project? My favorite part of it. Let's see. Hmm. That's a good question.
    34:49
    I don't know. I think just working with the guys at Stern and, like, talking to some of these engineers and these guys are just unbelievable. Anything you can think of, they can do. And it's really kind of amazing, you know, the whole process. I think actually once it came out and actually being able to go see one and play one is pretty incredible. You know, all that time and work that you spent on this, you know, stuck back here pulling all-nighters and that kind of stuff. and then to be able to actually stand there and play it.
    35:20
    I'd say the positive feedback that I've seen online, I know there's a couple of Rush pinball fanatic groups, and watching those guys discuss it and show pictures of it in their living rooms and their man caves and that kind of stuff, and seeing how there are Rush launch parties that arcades are having and bowling alleys and all these different places and all that kind of stuff all centered around this one project that I got to be a part of.
    35:48
    I don't know that there's one specific thing that was my favorite part about it, but just the whole experience was just awesome. It was really cool. So I loved it. I had a great time. Everybody's been really cool about it and hoping it'll lead to more stuff.
    36:06
    Well, and with your repertoire, I bet we'll definitely see you sometime in the future. They're making more pins. Yep, there's no shortage of pins at this point. Yeah. Okay, if you had to pick one back glass to hang on your wall, which one would it be?
    36:23
    One back glass of the three Rush designs? Yeah. Oh, the LE. Yeah, definitely the LE. Yeah, that LE is nice. It looks really good. And actually, so I have an LE. and when people come over and I'll say, what's the difference between an LE and a premium and I start going through things and I say, well one thing an LE has is a mirrored back glass which most of the time you can tell is there unless you looking closely If you look at the Rush one you can definitely see the mirroring on the back glass And it shows you it enhances the package a lot better. So, yeah, that's what she said. Oh, wow, Josh. Sorry, I have to cut that out.
    37:09
    Nice. No, I do like the back glass. And I will say the owl, like I also, I want, I have to get all three of them. So I'm going to order the other two. I love the owl just because of the symmetry. It looks so great. But the amalgam of the premium one where, you know, it has the guy running in, it feels very moving pictures-esque. Yeah. Where he's running into the museum and you have the owl flying out and you have, I know that Ed Robertson called that little totem dude something. I can't remember what it's called, but it's some specific like guidepost in, in Canada or something.
    37:51
    But yeah, it's, it's that, that stacked statue dude. So yeah, you're talking about the echo, whatever it is. Yeah. It's the test for echo one. Yeah. The test for echo rocks. Yeah. That was, that was a little odd that that wasn't, I don't think that was my idea. I remember them saying that they wanted to bring that in as sort of a character. Yeah. Somehow running out of there. And I was like, Oh, okay. It worked. It's cool. It's, I think it came out pretty cool. It's very Canadian. So yes. Well, and honestly, my favorite part of all this artwork is that owl. I mean, that, that thing just looks amazing. The, it stands out on every art package that you see it on. The Ellie, the beautiful part about it is it does definitely play into the time machine and it definitely feels like um they have these you know i think most bands do it now but they have small uh small videos that they have recorded and it feels like it's straight out of one of their videos yeah so you know trying to to draw it all together so i i do love that and i'm glad that i got the LE specifically because I think the art package on that one ties into the theme the best for me. I haven't actually seen an LE in person. I really want to see that armor, the guitar armor on the sides and that kind of stuff. I thought that was really cool looking.
    39:15
    I'll shoot you some pictures so you can see it up close. Or just come to Utah. It's not too far away. It's an 11 hour drive. Come on.
    39:24
    I'm coming over. you could make that back there in a day you could make it back in no time I just drove from Ohio and back that was a drive that's brutal well Michael if they want to get a hold of you how do they get a hold of you can email me at mike at sunburnedesigns.com for those who are still on Facebook which seems like less and less people every day But, you know, the art group that you mentioned on there earlier, which is Mike Barnard underscore art and then community, that's probably where I'm at most of the time. That's where people message me at. You know, a lot of the guys that collect the discs and that kind of stuff are, you know, doing a lot of selling and trading on there. That's pretty much my go to spot, you know, when I list up artwork and stuff. So, OK, is that the best place to buy art from you, too? Well, I have an Etsy page, which is Michael Barnard Art.
    40:27
    Yeah, I've got prints on there, a lot of the stuff that you were talking about earlier, a lot of 80s-themed prints. I've made a lot of my own kind of 80s movie posters for stuff that I feel like didn't really get enough.
    40:40
    I've got like a Last Starfighter and Spaceballs and A Christmas Story, stuff you don't see a lot of art for. I kind of have made my own stuff, and I keep all that on there. Spaceballs the pinball machine confirmed Actually I want a Christmas story pinball machine It would be very specific To one month of the year But that one month of the year would be epic That would be a hit for sure You get ho ho ho Multi-ball Or where you drain the ball And just Santa putting his foot on your face And pushing you down the slide So many great things Oh my goodness Well, we certainly, we are going to get you one of our hats too. It's the Loser Kid version 2. So we just released them at Texas Pinball Festival, and they are great. And I really think they look better than the original, if that's possible. So we'll definitely get that out to you. And we'd like to thank you so much for coming on. It's been great talking to you. And even behind the scenes, I think I talked to you when it first came out, and I was probably geeking out a little too much on the rush. but either way you probably thought it was a crazy stalker, but it's been so great having you on. Well, I appreciate you guys having me. I haven't really had that much of a chance to talk about it much, you know, since it came out, I've just been kind of hanging out in the shadows and reading comments and learning my lesson, not to interact with the trolls and just kind of, just kind of taking it in from the outside. So it's nice to actually come on here and chat a little bit about it. So, so I appreciate that. Thank you. Definitely. Well, thanks again for coming on. so scott we just wrapped up with michael i always every time i hear the end of an interview i think of head-to-head and it's like what did we learn yeah what did we learn hmm well crikey uh i just i can't do an australian accent so it doesn't matter crikey um yeah just gator wrestling yeah so okay so this is a this is a two-parter so now so we did talk about uh rush and the art And now we are actually moving into the tournament scene. We are pushing the Allentown Certified Stern Pro Circuit Tournament. And currently on the interview right now, we have Greg Waparelli, Pavarelli, and Crazy Leve Neyman. Welcome. Thanks. What's up, guys? Thanks, Josh. Thanks, Scott. Okay. So we have a tournament coming up, and you guys are tournament bros. So let's talk about the tournament and what we have to offer. we're getting back into the tournament scene, the serious tournament scene, since we've been in Harbour Nation for a couple of years. But it seems like we've come back with a four. So I want you to tell me about what you're planning on this tournament, what people can expect, how to find things, and again, what the dates are and how they can participate.
    43:31
    So let's start with the first one. So Allentown, tell me about it. I'll field this one. I've been going to the Allentown show for about 20 years. It's one of my favorites. Everybody who's been there, it's in Allentown, Pennsylvania, which is kind of a little northwest of Philly, a couple hours west of New York City. It's a cool tournament that features a large agricultural plex hall filled with pinball machines. There's a great farmer's market across the street with chicken wings, ribs, Vietnamese, diner, pretty much anything you can think of eating, barbecue, chips. And it's just kind of a tradition pinball. And there's always been a tournament there. And it's been big some years. It's been small some years. And this year, it just kind of, we stumbled upon it. It was on the ground, and it needed somebody to pick it up and bring it to the woodshed. And that's what Greg and I have done. Now, Greg is really, you know, his nickname is Whopper Alley because he's famous for his love and understanding of all things Whopper. And I think Greg is probably the best one to fill us in and kind of what this tournament is about from a nuts, bolts, and Whoppers standpoint. And also, since you guys were talking about Rush, I think Greg will have an interesting announcement related to a member of the Rush team and this forthcoming tournament. Okay. I see May 6th and 7th, 2022. Yep. That's it. The show is Friday and Saturday. The tournament is all day qualifying on Friday. Get there early. Get there at noon. Qualifying is 12 to 9 p.m. And you don't have to pre-register. You just show up with cash, $100 cash, and you'll get into this tournament. We've had a lot of people texting and emailing us about pre-registering and sending us money. And, you know, we just want it to be a big yard sale cash up front deal. So show up with your money and your time. and then finals, should you make them, will be on Saturday. And Greg's going to fill us in on how this all works. Okay, go ahead, Greg. And our co-assistant tournament co-undersupervisor, who we've just signed up. Very exciting.
    45:41
    So thank you, Levy, and thank you, guys. I am the expert on all things Whoppers here, and we're super excited for this opportunity, as Levy said. Kind of fell into our laps. This tournament has always been large in nature because of the multiple states that kind of feed the Pennsylvania area for Allentown. And a lot of great players have always come over the years. It was a Stern Pro Circuit the last time that it was eligible while the IFPA was still open pre-pandemic. And we're super excited to be back in the swing of things.
    46:12
    You know, it's a boom or beef world that we live in. And when we knew there was no opportunity for a Stern Pro Circuit, we could not let it go to waste because it was on the calendar. If nobody ran this tournament, we would have lost a Stern Pro Circuit this year. And what is the Stern Pro Circuit, Greg? Why do people want to come to this tournament and get those Stern Pro Circuit points? Why should people care about Stern Pro Circuit? So as you all know, the Whoppers are always the greatest part of a win, but when you can escalate that to a whole new level. How could you make a Whopper better, Greg? I don't understand how you could make a Whopper better than it already is. The very wise Josh Sharp has bestowed upon us the unique ability to multitask the Whopper ranking points, as well as these Sturm Pro Circuit points, and even better yet, certified this year with the uncanny boost of 120%. Whoppers of the kind that you've never seen before, and our format is aligned with that. So that means our Whoppers are going to be worth more than other people's Whoppers? Correct. The Allentown Whoppers will be at a higher value, and if you do well in this tournament, it'll help you towards the Sturm Pro Circuit and help you qualify for the Sturm Pro Circuit final. So we're not just sending our dollars to Josh. We're sending $5 per player to Stern for this high-level elite tournament, which will happen at the end of the circuit.
    47:31
    Actually, now I think it's been reduced from $40 down to $20. Top players in the circuit compete for glory and a whole lot of money. Where else can you get this Whopper boost? InDisc, right? If you want to fly to California, they had it. But there's only been a few others. Indis gets the major boost, and IFPA will get the major boost. But I think there was five or six other tournaments that met that qualification. It's not easy to do, guys. You have to either be an open tournament that runs for over a certain time period, which we would not have been able to pull off. But we did limited entry. So for those of you that are interested in coming, and we hope to see you there, there will be 12 games on your ticket. an all 12 count and you have to play 12 unique out of 20 games in the main bank we are touting 25 machines in the tour in the tournaments there's going to be a children's and women's tournament as well as a charity side tournament to raise money for project pinball and uh levy's going to get to that list in a little bit but we're super stoked about it all really high-end quality machines um from local local friends and and players alike um the finals will be papa format So it'll be 4-2-1-0 scoring to advance to the next round, and there's going to be a lot of great stuff to come.
    48:46
    You play 12 games in qualifying, and they all count. Correct. You cannot beef, or you could, but you'd hope that your consistency brings you up on your other games. Surely there's room for some beef in any kind of a balanced WAP or diet. I mean, you don't have to blow up 12 games to qualify, right? I think you want a solid eight or nine. Right, right. I'm just bringing this up because some people I've heard of, including like players you think would know better, like guys who are ranked maybe one in the world, are saying they think it sounds like a tough format. Like what do you say about that? What would you say to the number one player in the world if he thought that maybe this format was too tough for him? Whoa, whoa, we're a non-drama podcast.
    49:29
    So you're taking shots at Raymond, Ray Day. These aren't shots. Why would I love Ray? Me and Ray are tight. We're bros. But I'm just – I'm pointing out that like – Ray is going to play the format. You mark my words. He's going to finish first in qualifying or second to Eric Stone. He's going to love it when he's tried it. The one and only Eric Stone coming out of pseudo-retirement. Wow, his first ever appearance at the Allentown Pinball Tournament. So, Scott and Jeff, have you ever played a limited format where you only get a few tries per game that matter? Have you ever played that format? Would that be Expo? Yes, it would be. Although at Expo they don't all count, right? Don't you get like half of them are gimmies or five of them are gimmies? So we first stumbled across this format in Europe. We traveled to the distant land of Copenhagen in Denmark, where they have a really cool setup with the guys at PinLab. And trust me, my first time doing it, I was anxious because I'm thinking, I'm used to playing all day long, waiting in line, getting my redos. And it seemed like it would be frustrating. But when you walk up with that mentality where you know every game counts, you approach it differently. And, you know, you might shoot a different shot. You just got to put in a solid effort and try not to really screw anything up. And even then, you can screw a couple up because everybody else is going to also, I would think. Right. It's pretty impossible to get the GC on 12 games. Right. Well, we'll see if Stone or Ray Day or any of the other big names can pull that off. But it's tough. And Greg and I have both done the gauntlet in Europe. This is kind of a standard format over there. I was at Finland, I think, in 2018 for that EPC, and it was a lot of fun. And then I was at the one that Greg went to a year later, and we both did really well in that tournament. We both qualified. The first year in Finland, I think I finished 10th, and Greg finished like 7th or 8th in Copenhagen. So we didn't let this format frighten us, and I don't want any of you Americans to be afraid of this. This is how they do it over in Europe. And if you look at the top 25, there's like half of that top 25 is filled with Euros. You've got like Brits, you've got Finns, you've got Swedes. What else you got in there, Greg? We've got some Danish people in there. Germans, Italians. We've got some Germans, we've got Italians. So let's not be afraid of the format is what I'm saying. We have a lot of juicy updates here, and one of them ties into the Rush aspect of this episode. So we're super excited to announce that we have added Stern's own Tim Sexton to our director team. He's going to be my assistant tournament director. and we know that he's going to be able to bring us to an even higher level. Great representative from Stern for a Stern Pro Circuit right here on the East Coast. He recently crossed into the top 25 from booming it in District 82 with a Whopper's Flow. And it is. It's very free. It is too. So Timmy's even more Whopper obsessed right now than usual, I'd say, and he's on a roll. We have a great support team of local New York City directors that work with me in the league formats. And, you know, we're also super excited about this list of sponsors who have helped bring the tournament prize pool and, you know, extra prizes to a whole other level. Our platinum sponsor, Comet Pinball. We've got Spooky Pinball, Cointaker, American Pinball, Jack Bar, Pin Graphics, the world-famous Rock Fantasy, and are very excited to be working with Mark from Backhand Pinball. who's going to be our high-level production for the commentary and the live stream. And we're bringing in high-speed Internet for this, because you just can't trust the Fairgrounds Internet, as they've learned over the years. So, like, Bucks County Cable, or whoever it is in Allentown, is going to come out, and they're going to lay down some high-speed pipe for us. And Backhand Pinball, who I don't know if you guys have seen, is a great East Coast streamer. He did NYCPCs on Pentastic for a few years. He's going to be on the rig.
    53:33
    And if Greg and I beef out, you might see us in the booth, so that will be fun too. Although we both plan, of course, to be in the final four.
    53:40
    All right, so you're going to have to clue everybody else in on the Northeast slang. So if someone beefs out, what does that mean? It's not good. Yeah.
    53:50
    When you missed a shot and drained out the left out lane and you had a trap and you should have won the game, that's a total beef. It's both a noun and a verb. Oh, okay. It's a combo. It can be, yeah. Unless you nail the combo, which is a boom. I mean, you get like the four-way combo in Shadow. It's a total boom. So it's beef or boom, right? It's a beef or boom world we live in, as Greg said before. And, you know, we're just trying to make our way in it, basically. I don't want to say Levy invented boom, but he's probably overused it enough that people can't get out of their head. But it was done a different way. Yeah. Also wanted to thank Pin Graphics, another one of our sponsors, and, of course, Josh Sharp at the IFPA, which reminds me, if head-to-head pinball taught you guys anything, it's certainly not anything of value for tournament pinball, but we still love those guys. Oh, wow. Man, they're still dead, and you're kicking the corpse. What's going on there?
    54:47
    They're good guys. Yeah. And I'm very excited to play the new and improved game that Marty's put out there. Can't wait until I get to play it. Jack Bar is getting one, and hoping that comes soon. One more thing to add about this format is a really nice thing about it is you're not chained to the games all day. Allentown again it a fun show and the farmer market is awesome I can believe people still go to that snack bar and get those disgusting hot hot dogs in the hall when you just walk across the street to this glorious magnificent magnificent farmer market which you have plenty of time to do because 12 games it not going to be that tough to put them in In the past, another reason we chose this format is in the past, lines have been an issue there. Some of you guys have been previously might remember that it's not going to be a problem with 12 games. Everybody's playing 12 games. That's what you get for your hundred bucks. You don't, there's no upsell. You don't put more money in after. In the past, if you bought your maximum entries, you might've spent 160 bucks, but here it's going to be a cool Benjamin. And also the games are going to be super playable. We're not taking the ball saves off. We're not putting stupid rules in that you've never played before. They're going to be, it's going to be every game counts, but the game is going to be playable and it's going to be a lot of fun. Okay. So it is a limited entry. You get one entry for your Benjamin and 12 games. Boom, you're done. That's right. Right? Yeah. There's going to be 24 A finalists and then 24 B finalists for those that aren't ranked in the top 100. And there's prize payout for every single finalist in all the tournaments. We're going to have nice trophies, plenty of donated prizes like play fields and additional stuff that's non-monetary in value. The extras from Stern Pinball for their package. and we went well out of our way to try to make this the best possible Allentown pinball tournament that's ever occurred, and we look to keep it that way for years to come. So we did spend a lot of money on making sure we bring everybody high-quality collector games of multiple eras and diversity. So really quick, before we answer more questions, why don't you just plug those games because I think we've got a good list here. Okay. Oh, and point out, it's not just the A&B. There's also a women's tournament, and they'll have their own bank, right, Craig? Yeah, those are separate tournaments. The women's tournament is a separate tournament ranked. I was just referring to A and B for those. And there's a kids' tournament as well, right? Correct. And they're using the same games or a different set of games? The women's is going to be on different games from the main tournament. And the kids are going to play the same ones that everybody else are playing? Correct. All right. Well, let's get to those games. We crowdsourced these games, and we have a lot of generous sponsors and enthusiastic players who are coming to the show. And here's what we've got. We've got Dolly Parton. I do know that's going to be in the women's bank, but the rest will kind of sort out next week. So we've got Dolly Parton. We've got Whirlwind, Space Station, Shadow, Countdown. The world famous rock fantasy is bringing us Star Trek Pro, Walking Dead Pro, X-Men Pro, and Game of Thrones. My friend Steven Haberman is bringing us Stern's Classic Galaxy from 1979, 1980. Howard from Project Pinball is bringing us Aztec, Royal Rumble, Jungle Princess, Frankenstein, and Gottlieb's 300. And I think the Frankenstein is going to be a Project Pinball charity game, Greg? Yep, and it's H-E-O. It's very nice. It is nice. They got these, you know, like I'm not going to begrudge them because it's a charity, but like he popped up on Facebook a few days ago with like, look what I picked up today. They got donated to them this homies-only Frankenstein and a funhouse. I'm like, oh, come on, Howard. Like, you know, the kids would have been just as happy with like, say, my old Harlem Globetrotters that I'd give you for them, but that didn't happen. I'll make you a trade.
    58:43
    All right. And then we got Harlem Globetrotters. We've got Flash Gordon, Classic Ballets. We've got Dragon Fist, brought to us by Slam Tilt's Bruce Nightingale, famous for his top-quality restored pinball machines and his rare Stern collection, bringing us Dragon Fist. We've got Stern Star Wars Pro. We've got the Gottlieb Classic Wedgehead Volley. That's a great game. Cointaker is bringing us an Avengers Pro to play in the tournament. We're really happy about that. And we've got Chris McDonough, I believe, is bringing us a Black Knight Sword of Rage and a Led Zeppelin Pro. And then if that's not enough, we also got a Williams Blackout classic Orbit game from 1981. And we have Bally's Viking. So I don't know. I mean, honestly, our games might be better than the games in free play.
    59:35
    So if you want to play the best games in the tournament, come into this tournament. That's a really impressive collection. So in the past, how many people can they expect to enter into it? I know we're inviting everybody to show up and pop down their $100, but how many people do you expect to get?
    59:54
    I'm going to say optimistically, we're going to expect as much as the last time it was a Stern Pro Circuit, close to 200. I think conservatively, 150 would be the minimum I'm expecting there. So a lot of it is just traffic from the show. So $100 might sound expensive, but at the end of the day, the previous format is actually racked up more than that because you'd have to pay for additional entries.
    60:18
    Yeah, every major tournament I've been to in the last few years has been more than $100. That's for sure. I know Pump and Dump, I usually spend well over $200. So at the end of the day, the limited format could actually be more cost-effective for everybody. How about an estimated Whopper haul, Greg?
    60:33
    Just ballpark. The math on that really quick, I'd say the base is definitely maxed at 32, and then based off of attendance, it's going to be like at least.
    60:44
    Base 32, whatever that means. That's good, right? I think we're breaking 70 Whoppers for first, guys.
    60:52
    That's a lot. With a certified boost, for sure. The question I have is for people like me that don't play in tournaments very often that may want to get into something like this, but they're afraid to bring $100 because they feel like they're just putting into the Raymond Davidson fund. What would you want to say to them to convince them, hey, this is something you should come out to and enjoy, and you still are going to have a fun time versus don't sit at home? I think that's a great question. I'm sorry, a lot of people who think they're not going to do well are going to end up qualifying in B. Like a lot of first timers will qualify in B because, you know, you're going to play your games. And if you play loose, you just might get enough points to qualify in A or B. 48 people will qualify for the finals, and that's a lot.
    61:43
    And you're going to get some valuable experience either way. I started playing in that same mindset of, well, I want to compete and I want to get better at this. I can win locally, but what's the point of driving all the way to Pittsburgh to throw away my money? And I remember one of my first circuit events, I qualified even though I had that fearful mindset. So I would encourage anybody to go out there, get your feet wet. The only way that you're going to improve at tournament pinball is by practicing and playing against players that have more experience than you. It's a lot of fun each and every time. And no matter what, we're paying every single person that qualifies for the finals. The payout is going to be very high. We're expecting no less than 30% of the payout total to go to B. So it'll be 70-30 split for the prize pool for A and B. And that will be a very, very high amount for the winner of B. So you're going to be seeing hundreds of dollars in the B division for those finalists and minimum of $1,000 for A for first place. So at the end of the day, it might seem like a tall glass of water or a big hill to climb, so to say, but you go out there and you play some good games and you can surprise yourself. And it's going to be fun, and it's going to be your only opportunity to play these awesome games we put together because it's not open to the regular tournament. This lineup is for tournament players only, and the tournament will end the same time the show ends on Saturday night around 9 o'clock.
    63:15
    So there's that. And the other thing is we're going to have prizes that are randomly going to be given out to everybody, some of the swag, some cool maybe a T-shirt here or there, maybe some koozies, maybe a translator too. So everybody who plays has a chance to win whether they know it or not. It's true. So it seems like everybody's going to have a great time. one or two guys are going to melt down and not have a good time it always happens but I'd say 95% of people are going to have a fantastic time but the rest of us will have even more of a good time laughing at those that's true do you want to be the entertainer or the entertainee that's the question honestly if you've never seen some of these guys play I mean it's like imagine like they were just having an open drafting call and you can pay $100 you know you can play with the Mets like one day uh well maybe I'll pick a good team like well oh wow wow we might be beating the National League uh in standings over here but yeah just like last year right Greg no to Levy's point though what I would say is one thing that's incredible about this kind of thing is okay you came out you gave it your best and you learned a lot and then you get to watch these finalists and like don't get me wrong uh Levy and I have done great in plenty of tournaments, but there's nothing like watching like Eric Stone, Battle Raymond Davidson, and the other guys of that elitist class. Like I would predict at any given moment, Stone is capable of like breaking one of our flippers from playing so long. Yeah, you have a ringside seat and you're playing with them. You're qualifying next to these guys and you might even get to play against Greg or I in finals. And then you really learn something. One thing that I really like about going to these tournaments is because even if I'm not playing a lot or getting deep into the tournament, it's always nice to have the streaming rig. And usually there's a place that you can watch the competition and usually listening to the commentators help me understand more about the game and help me understand what the goals are. And it really is pretty amazing because I would drain in 10 seconds. However, just watching the skill set that they have to keep the ball alive, that's worth the price of admission alone. whether or not I'm playing. And it definitely levels up my game when I see what the elite players are doing. Absolutely. I'm glad you said that too. To echo what Scott is saying too, we've had people like Bo and Karen's on the show and Raymond Davidson, and they said that the way they got better is going out to these events, rubbing shoulders with people and learning techniques that you can't really see on screen. Right. You got to be there in person to understand. And don't be afraid to ask questions either. I was playing a tournament, locally uh back in 2019 and i did got the the big billion hurry up on attack for mars and i i walk away from it i instantly go into first and the guy behind me is like what the heck did you just do it's like i thought everyone knew about the 1 billion hurry up so there's even stuff you're gonna learn like you know no biggie yeah that's my favorite shot in pinball that's so cool yes and so i mean had so many brilliant moments but that that billion point hurry up just makes you feel so happy every time oh yes so accomplished and uh bowen's an allentown guy i wonder if we'll be seeing him bowen will be there i bet i bet he will be he's been to several i'm glad you said that about the watching the stream too because one thing that we made sure was in the rules we have it so that the banks that the finalists will play are going to be diverse and then you won't be able to play three sterns you'll have to play a stern a solid state of williams and you won't be able to pick the same bank twice and the reason that we really feel like that's important is for the people watching at home you don't want to watch the same game over and over again just because the guy that's winning can crush it i know as much as it's cool to watch someone do well you don't want to see whirlwind every single round because somebody keeps nailing the jackpots it'll be it'll be a flowing uh finals on on the stream We care about our viewer to the expense of our player who's going to be forced to pick one of the banks that we select. And they're going to be interesting banks. So you're not going to see somebody just pick, you know, you're not going to see somebody pick like X-Men three times in finals. And that'll keep it more interesting for the players. It'll keep it a little a little more parody, I think, because you're going to have to pick several games, not just one together. and I think it'll be good for the stream and it'll be good for the commentators too because nothing sucks more than calling the same game four times in a row.
    67:56
    If you haven't been to Allentown, come out, guys, and it's also a great place to buy machines. I bought my first ever pinball machine there. You tend to find people that are trying to get rid of it and they didn't sell it by the end of the show. You get a working, functional EM for a couple hundred bucks that you could back your car.
    68:15
    See how it is this year. I think that stuff's still going to be there. Allentown's always been a good place to buy older games. If you're showing up and you want to buy a Monster Bash, you might be out of luck. But if you're willing to hang around on Saturday and pick up a Gottlieb Countdown or Sinbad or something like that at a good price, I bet there's going to be stuff like that there because they're all business. You can pick up a Drunken Lonely game.
    68:37
    That's right. So now the website, pinfestival.com, P-I-N-F-E-S-T-I-V-A-L.com. And there's a PDF. If you look, it actually talks about the tournament there. That's right. We put all the money into the tournament. We didn't waste it on a fancy schmancy website or even update it to 2022. I might still say 2021. It does if you search for it. So you click on it and then it says Pinfest 2022. Which is exactly what it is, right? If it makes you feel any better. A lot of us are confused with the Twippies or the 2021, even though we had it in the year 2022. So, hey, you could just go like that, right? I think I'm flying to Florida. I think those are rigged. I haven't been nominated for anything yet. I say it's not fair. Greg, I think you would know the answer to this. I think I'm flying to Florida in a couple of weeks for the 2019 IFPA championships. Yeah, let me qualify for the world championships. He can't remember when it was that he qualified. It was the pandemic, but we're finally doing it. So I get the pleasure, even though I'm ranked 120th now. I feel like I'm Jeff Teolas right now, but you could also find us on Facebook. If you look up PinFest Allentown something or other, you'll see the event page there. And there's even a pin side thread about PinFest. Wow. Okay. All right. You can go there and you can find a bar sign to buy or some old plastics, or you can read my once a page plugs and updates on the Allentown website. that's true if anybody listening is coming please bring me some Harlem Globetrotters plastics for my game in my house which one are you looking for the Eiffel Tower oh the Eiffel Tower I picked up an Earthshaker and it's 99% Earthshaker 1% Addams Family is that a sling no it's the left sling is Morticia nice that's a Pat Lawler game you have to mix it up it's fine At least it's period specific. If you ever sell it, you can call it a mod. That's what I was thinking. That raises the value, right? Because Adam's families are just ridiculous right now.
    70:48
    Well, I told my dad a couple years ago, hey, can I just put a bunch of games in the basement? They're like a good investment. You should put some money in it. Now, a couple years later, I really should have pushed it. It's better than stocks. Yes, exactly. It's in the market right now. but we're not going to go into that. No. Okay. So if you, if you go to the website and there's a big, uh, a pinball on fire, it says pin fest, IFP, a tournament, click that bad boy. And it goes right to a PDF that tells you everything about it. So that's right. Greg and I are flaming. That ball is on fire. Um, and it's going to be awesome. It's going to be a game all the time. We can't wait. We'll see you on the sixth, bright and early be on time. So you can get your games in and, uh, and, uh, thanks for having us. so much.
    71:36
    We've been holding out. All the big podcasts wanted us to plug this show. Greg said we're going loser, kid. I know these guys. That's the way to go. We'll get you guys some hats so you can wear them and represent. Awesome. If you send us hats, we will wear it on the stream as we commentate finals. There you go.
    71:55
    Orville Albert keeps saying he's the fifth favorite podcast, but isn't that us now? Because we came in fifth on Twippies, right? I think we came in fourth, didn't we? No, we came in fifth because it went Chris. Just remember, Canada doesn't really count, guys.
    72:11
    And then it went Pinball Show, and then it went Brody, You, and Pinball. Okay, that's four just in case you're – Wait, Jules has fallen down? Oh, Chris, Chris. Okay. Yeah, so Canada, super awesome. Oh, gotcha. Gotcha. Okay, okay. Because everyone wants to hear about that right now, you know? Yeah. Exactly. I can't get enough of you. Hey, look, I mean, if you're not Godzilla, it's not your fault. I know, right? It's all good. As No Fair would say, if you're second place, you're the first loser. You're the first loser.
    72:45
    All right, well, thanks again, guys. If you want to get a hold of us, we are Loser Kid Pinball Podcast at gmail.com. We are on the socials, Facebook, Instagram, Twitter, and Twitch, all at Loser Kid Pinball. You're going to want to start following us on Twitch. we've got some exciting stuff coming up it's a little ways out but I just want to start pushing it now because I am so stoked we've got so many people behind us on it it's going to be awesome anything else for us Scott before we sign out? I think we're good definitely go to Pinfest and get those Whoppers yeah
    73:31
    Bye.