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Triple Drain Pinball Podcast Ep 11: 2021 Year In Review

Triple Drain Pinball Podcast·podcast_episode·1h 55m·analyzed·Dec 16, 2021
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claude-haiku-4-5-20251001 · $0.033

TL;DR

2021 pinball review: IFPA returns, Led Zeppelin code saves weak design, Mando shows mid-bias, Godzilla dominates.

Summary

Triple Drain Podcast hosts review 2021 pinball year, discussing IFPA tournament resumption after 15-month COVID hiatus (March 2020–August 2021), major Stern releases (Led Zeppelin, Mandalorian, Godzilla), and community sentiment shifts. Led Zeppelin weak playfield design was rescued by strong code from Tim Sexton and Raymond Davidson; Mandalorian initially hyped but revealed mid-playfield bias issues through real-world tournament play; Godzilla's release set new industry standards across game quality, art, and features, positioning it as likely Twippy sweep winner.

Key Claims

  • IFPA stopped sanctioning tournaments in March 2020 immediately after Nationals/Pinmasters, lasting approximately 15 months until August 2021

    high confidence · Tom Graph stating 'March 2020 until August 2021' as the stoppage period

  • Led Zeppelin's playfield design received significant criticism but code quality from Tim Sexton and Raymond Davidson elevated the overall game quality

    high confidence · Travis: 'the code saves that game' and Tom: 'I love what Tim Sexton and Raymond Davidson did with it'

  • Mandalorian LE machines sold for $16,000+ secondary market prices when new, significantly above MSRP

    high confidence · Tom: 'I have this confirmed that as of last week, a Mando LE, a used one, went for $16' (thousand implied)

  • Mandalorian tournament play exposed mid-playfield bias toward center shot play, particularly after Expo tournament exposure

    high confidence · Joel: 'once that game got put into Expo, it got exposed for that' and code updates attempted to balance this

  • Godzilla is anticipated to sweep Twippy awards across multiple categories (Game of Year, Shots/Layout, Code, potentially Art)

    medium confidence · Joel: 'I don't see any way possible with the Twippies coming up pretty soon. I think Godzilla is the type of release that just pretty much has skunked everything'

Notable Quotes

  • “It means awesomeness Joel. It means tons of Whoppers. The Whoppers are very... means the Whoppers are back.”

    Tom Graph @ ~3:30 — Explains IFPA tournament community celebration of resumption; 'Whoppers' is IFPA ranking/points terminology

  • “I am not the tournament player you guys probably... this is probably you guys were itching you guys were ready so... tell me what that means to you”

    Joel (triple_drain host) @ ~2:45 — Establishes Joel as casual/non-competitive player perspective balancing the hosts' tournament focus

  • “The code really, the code makes that a lot of fun. The code's a star.”

    Travis @ ~11:20 — Summarizes consensus that Led Zeppelin code quality compensates for weak playfield design

  • “I actually teared up at the end of it just because I heard the music. And I watched Star Wars so much with my dad as a kid... my dad, he passed away a little over a decade ago.”

    Joel @ ~15:40 — Emotional context for Stern's success with Mandalorian—nostalgia-driven purchasing beyond game mechanics

  • “I think Godzilla is the type of release that just pretty much has skunked everything. And it's almost like that in itself is almost going to make the Twippies an afterthought.”

    Joel @ ~29:15 — Explicit claim that Godzilla dominance will overshadow Twippy awards competitive balance

Entities

Tom GraphpersonTravispersonJoelpersonTim SextonpersonRaymond DavidsonpersonNeilpersonDwightperson

Signals

  • ?

    community_signal: Tournament resumption (IFPA August 2021) created significant emotional and competitive renewal; hosts emphasize value of in-person connection for scattered geographic community

    high · Tom Graph emphasis on missing face-to-face relationships during 15-month shutdown; renewed travel to tournaments like Pinmasters/Nationals

  • ?

    competitive_signal: Mandalorian revealed mid-playfield bias in tournament play environment (Expo) that was not visible in casual/home play; real-world competitive exposure drove code balance iterations

    high · Joel: 'once that game got put into Expo, it got exposed for that' and subsequent code updates attempted to 'make the tournament players happy'

  • ?

    design_philosophy: Led Zeppelin's playfield design (Steve Ritchie) was fundamentally weak but elevated by code quality from Tim Sexton and Raymond Davidson; this became the dominant narrative recovery strategy

    high · Travis: 'the code saves that game' and 'the code pulls it to an above-average game'; consensus that code compensated for 'not the world's best design with Steve Ritchie'

  • $

    market_signal: Godzilla positioned as industry-setting standard release that will dominate Twippy awards and establish new baseline for future releases; potential to make other 2021 games seem secondary

    high · Joel: 'Godzilla is the type of release that just pretty much has skunked everything...almost going to make the Twippies an afterthought'

  • $

    market_signal: New collectors entering pinball market through modern IP themes (Mandalorian Star Wars) value secondary market machines at premium prices regardless of tenure in hobby

Transcript

groq_whisper · $0.345

0:00
The Pinball Network is online. Launching Triple Drain Pinball Podcast. All right, Travis, you ready? Yeah. Tom, oh, that's right. You literally just told us you got up to take a whiz, so let's see you when you get here.
0:23
We're three guys who like to taunt people. So we came up with the class our name. We're so attracted to time and time. And we call ourselves Triple Dream. We're Triple.
0:44
Triple Dream. All right. What a great intro song. Yeah. So episode 11. Episode 11. Happy to. Oh, hi there, Tom. How are you doing? Good. How are you? Did you start the show? We sure did. I kind of figured.
1:04
Did you wash your hands? Of course. Oh, good. Good, good, good. Episode 11. Yeah, we decided, hey, let's try to squeeze in at least another episode before the end of the year. The reality is we're kind of waiting on this next reveal. There's a good chance there's going to be another game revealed before the end of the year. We'll try our best to get an episode or reaction to that reveal done. But we're like, well, there's not a ton of news right now, but there has been a ton of news over the last year. So we're like, let's go and spend this episode kind of reviewing 2021.
1:40
And boy, do we have a list. We have quite a long list to go through. So, Tom, I got to ask you right when you have a mouthful of water, where do you want to start, Tom? What do you want to start with first? uh let's start with the ifpa comes back this is uh tom graph went right to the top of the list and chose item number one so uh ifpa comes back i am not the tournament player you guys probably this is probably you guys were itching you guys were ready so um tell me what that means to you it means awesomeness joel it means tons of whoppers the whoppers are very means the whoppers are back. Now, it was really weird because the IFPA, it stopped sanctioning tournaments back in March of 2020. And it was very sudden because it was right after Nationals and Pinmasters and right before TPF. So March, for a lot of people that like to travel for tournament pinball, it's a very busy time because Nationals, of course, is all the state champions or at least state reps that got to second place at least. And then, of course, you have Pinmasters, which becomes a huge event just because you have so many great players showing up from across the country. So it was just kind of one of those weird things that, you know, we were all there playing and it was, you know, everybody was aware that COVID was a thing that was starting up, but it kind of wasn't really real for anybody that was there. You know, nobody was really mentioning it or anything like that. A few people were, you know, not wanting to shake hands or wanting to do elbows and stuff like that. And then all of a sudden it's just, as soon as it was over with, it was like, okay, wait, no more pinball. We're shutting it down because people were wondering, is TPF going to happen? And lo and behold, it ended up being, what, about a 15-month, I think, stoppage in play completely. Maybe, I don't know, I might have gotten my months confused. That sounds about right. Yeah, March 2020 until August 2021. So it was a long stoppage of sanctioned play. But there were still tournaments and leagues that went on. They weren't for any points, though. It was just pure fun, nothing more. But at the same time, you kind of, it stunk because you lose that ability to be in front of somebody, face-to-face with somebody that you don't get to see every day because you're traveling around. You get to see the same people at different places around the country. And so you miss out on some of those friendships. And, yeah, just like we get to do, you know, with this podcast, with the videos and the mics, we get to talk. We get to hang out. But it's not the same as being face-to-face and getting to sit down for dinner, you know, like Tom and I have been able to do, go for breakfast and stuff like that. Can't say the same for Joel because Joel doesn't go to anything I go to, but that's okay, Joel. Yeah. I mean, Tom and I hung out. It was great. Have you two even met in person? No. Not yet. No. Probably never will. Internet. Yeah. Yeah, we're the same person. People don't realize it. It's just I shave, and then I'm Travis, and then I wait a few, you know, a week, and then I'm me again. It's great. I guarantee you now there's a bunch of people listening that's like, what?
Led Zeppelin
game
Mandaloriangame
Godzillagame
Guns N' Rosesgame
IFPAorganization
Pinmastersevent
Nationalsevent
Expoevent
Fox Cities Pinballorganization
Steve Ritchieperson
Twippy Awardsevent
Buffalo Pinballorganization
Zach Minneyperson
Keithperson
Halloweengame
Zombie Yetiperson
Jeff Teolisperson
Metallicagame

medium · Joel: 'Every theme they see, no matter how long it's been out, that is a brand new theme to them...as valuable as they say that we want it'

  • ?

    community_signal: Casual players (Joel's demographic) engage with pinball through theme/IP nostalgia and visual appeal; competitive players (Tom/Travis) prioritize code depth and shot puzzle mechanics

    high · Travis explicit coding preference vs. Joel's Star Wars emotional memory trigger; different appreciation frameworks for same games

  • $

    market_signal: Mandalorian LE secondary market pricing reached $16,000+, significantly above MSRP, indicating sustained collector FOMO driven by Star Wars IP nostalgia and theme appeal

    high · Tom: 'a Mando LE, a used one, went for $16' and Joel's attribution to Star Wars nostalgia and new-to-pinball collector influx

  • ?

    product_concern: Led Zeppelin's upper flipper dead-end shot design (Pro version) received negative comparison to similar problematic shots (Adam's Family train shot); community concern about playfield ergonomics

    medium · Travis: 'the upper flipper for the Pro was severely lacking...I got serious vibes of that' problematic shot pattern

  • ?

    product_strategy: Mandalorian received iterative code updates post-release to address balance issues; Dwight assigned as lead coder with explicit challenge of satisfying both casual and top-50 competitive players

    high · Discussion of balance code releases and Joel noting 'Dwight's trying to figure that out' with new code iterations

  • ~

    sentiment_shift: Buffalo Pinball community response reversed initial negative impressions of Led Zeppelin after extended home play; Nick purchased Premium after bad pizza shop reveal

    medium · Joel: 'Kevin and Nick...tore it apart...and then Nick had a chance...Nick bought it' and community encouragement to replay

    • 4:52
    It's just been a long-distance relationship this entire time. Yeah. We met on Match.com. It was nice.
    5:00
    Yeah. No, I've learned a lot doing this podcast with you guys, and I'm not a tournament player. I know I say that all the time, but I didn't realize until talking to you guys about tournaments and even seeing the tournament at Expo and then watching more of these tournaments, you know, Tom, you've done an excellent job streaming these on Fox City's Pinball.
    5:19
    I didn't realize, like, it really is the same group. We're very familiar faces. So even though they all are all across the country, that doesn't matter. It really doesn't matter where it's at. A lot of you guys, I mean, you guys are obsessed with these Whoppers and are happy to get on a plane and go get them wherever you have to get them. And that's really neat. I mean, I totally get it after going to a show, going to Expo, and being able to, like, finally meet some of my pinball friends in person, Tom being one of them, Travis, no. But it was really good. It was – I get it. I understand if I had that type of opportunity to travel around, I would. And I understand you've got people like Jeff Teolis, who's literally flying internationally in and out of America over to Germany. I mean, all just to see these and playing these tournaments and see these people. It's awesome. So I'm happy for you guys. I'm glad it's back. And both of you guys are doing your job and gobbling up those Whoppers. So well done. Thank you. I'm trying to get to Germany in 2023. I don't know about Tom. You'll get there. Well, Tom posted a screenshot. You and Neil are like, what, like 59 and 60 right now or something? You're like right next. No, it was like 38 and 39. And then Neil shot past me when the expo results got uploaded. That's awesome. That's really cool. And then he killed me at the double launch party for Godzilla. Yeah. My tournament life's over, Joel.
    6:48
    It's all over. Your offspring has surpassed you, and you did your part. It's never coming back. Tom is shortchanging himself. He does just fine, too. He's still ranked in the top 50 also. Well done. When he picks Cosmos. So we decided we've got a long list. So we were like, well, should we like set a timer and do five minutes for each, you know, each topic just so we don't get too in the weeds on one thing or the other. So I think at any moment anybody can interrupt anybody else and say wrap it up. So I can't wait for Tom to do that. But I think just to get it all out of the way, let's go ahead and transition because we got, I mean, it's a random list here, but let's just roll through releases. Let's get through releases first, and we'll just start with Stern, just knock Stern out of the way. Technically, Led Zeppelin was released last year, but Led Zeppelin really didn't hit, you know, it didn't really show up, or people really didn't have an opportunity to play him until really the beginning of this year, right? I mean, it's so. Yeah, I agree with that. And then Twippy-wise and awards season-wise, I think Led Zeppelin technically counts for this year. Right. It always counts as a cycle for the following year. So real quick, just real quick thoughts on Led Zeppelin, the reveal.
    8:04
    Yeah, anything. Tom, you take it. You take it first because I know you got the LE and you're a big Led Zeppelin fan. Yeah, I think as far as the release of Led Zeppelin, it's Led Zeppelin. I mean, it's a huge theme band that is freaking awesome. But as far as the play field, I think, or the game itself, there was a lot of criticism as far as the artwork and the play field design.
    8:37
    But, you know, I thoroughly enjoy mine. It's a hard shooting game unless you really get the shots down. I've noticed that watching people play it at Expo, at a recent tournament I was at locally. People don't seem to like it because they can't make the shots, and it gets frustrating. But, you know, I think the code is great on the game. I love what Tim Sexton and Raymond Davidson did with it, and I enjoy mine a lot. Mine's not going anywhere. Yeah, for sure. And I know, Travis, like what's interesting is so Guns N' Roses came out end of last year, middle to end of last year is what it seems like. October. October, yeah. So it came out. Technically it counts for last year. And then Led Zeppelin came. So Led Zeppelin and Guns N' Roses, I mean, they've been like compared. Everything is compared between the two. And I do know when Led Zeppelin came out, the initial reveal was people were like, okay. But, I mean, they're comparing it to Guns N' Roses. But just visually, that's what they were comparing. But Travis, you're one of the first people with YouTube to basically say, like, I prefer Led Zeppelin over Guns N' Roses. And that blew people's minds. So do you still think that way? Yeah, yeah. And, I mean, kind of what you're referring to, too, is one of the first times I got to play Guns N' Roses for an extended period of time, I released a podcast that was kind of had a little bit of controversy to it because it riled up some people that were just expecting me just to bow down. And, yeah, not to go off on a tangent, yeah, GNR, it has some great spots to it with the lights and stuff like that. But, you know, I'm more of a code guy. You know, I want to know what the code is going to be. I feel like it's figuring out a puzzle or chess pieces. I love trying to align just the perfect storm of a shot with, you know, whether it's a multiplier, whether it's a jackpot, something like that. That's the way I like to play pinball. And I know there's a lot of people out there that don't, but it's my preference. It's the same way it's anybody else's preference to play how they want to play. So that being said, when Led Zeppelin was announced and I saw the game for the first time, honestly, I wasn't really too enthused about the layout itself. I thought the upper flipper for the Pro was severely lacking. I didn't like that it came to a dead-end shot. And I know that a lot of people would say, well, Iron Maiden had the same type of shot, But I would argue that that shot's a little bit different just because you're using a mini flipper. It's at a different angle. It's a little bit closer. I mean, I don't necessarily mind that type of shot. But I will say I believe it's the train shot on Adam's family that's similar to where it's like a dead-end shot. Is that the one? Am I thinking right, Tom? Yep. I know that shot I absolutely hate also. Like, I absolutely hate that shot. And so when I saw this, I got serious vibes of that. And whenever I was playing it, honestly, I can, just to make a long story short, I can honestly say I have this game at the house and I have it out in location right now, and I probably won't let it go anytime soon. I got the Expression Lights on it. I got the Insider Connect on it. And, yeah, it's not the greatest player in the world. It's not the world's best design with Steve Ritchie. I mean, he got a lot of flack for it. And I don't know, maybe rightfully so because he's put out some great games in the past, some great design games in the past. And I don't know exactly what happened when this came out, but what I do know is that I feel like Tim Sexton and Raymond both saved that game when it comes to code. Because it's a well-coded game. It makes sense. It's fun hitting the shots just based off what the shots are telling you because there's going to be a natural progression throughout the game, which is nice. So even like Tom was saying, if you're breaking shots, the code kind of makes up for it because it's like, yeah, you're playing like Ray Charles, but guess what? We're going to still get to the next part of the song, which is nice. You know what I mean? So something like that's nice. And then at the same time, they actually made it. I was just telling Ray this just the other day that they made that end shot for the pro, just that target. They made it interesting just because they tied it in to different, like, mini super modes and stuff like that, which made sense in that form. So I liked what they did with that. And, I mean, it can be. Like, if I'm playing it, I love jamming on it. When you can find the shots and you can start flowing, it's a lot of fun. It's a lot of fun. So I was pleasantly surprised with where that code took the game, and it makes me excited to see what Tim Sexton is going to do as the main coder to some of these games moving forward in the future. And it makes me excited to see what Raymond gets to do once he gets the reins of a game on his own. I'm sure that's coming up here pretty soon either way. But, yeah, that's kind of what I feel about Led Zeppelin right now. A hundred percent. And I definitely know it was from a timing standpoint. Unfortunately, it was like, you know, COVID was obviously still going on. And I just don't feel like a ton of people had a chance to play it like they can now. And and it's definitely a game you want to play at home with the with the music cranked up and something you can focus. Perfect example is the Buffalo Pinball guys, because Kevin and Nick did their initial impressions on it. They played it at a pizza shop, and, yeah, they didn't care about it at all. They, like, tore it apart. They're like, this game sucks. And then Nick had a chance. Like, everybody wrote in and was like, you need to give this a shot. And now Nick owns it. Nick bought it. It's a premium, and he said on his last podcast that he thinks it's probably his favorite CERN. And it truly, I think you're right. The play field is fine. It's not, there's no real toys that get you excited. The expression light kits is awesome, but it is, like, the code saves that game. rocking out and jamming out to that game is a lot of fun. I borrowed one from Zach in the cool mini and flipping out. And initially I was like, I'll give it a shot. Like I was not excited about it at all, but I had a lot of fun on that game. Well, it's like a modern day solid state. That's what it feels like to me whenever I'm playing it with the way that the shots are and the fact that, yeah, it's not a looker. I mean, let's face facts. If you're comparing it to GNR, GNR is going to win that battle hands down every single time when it comes to stuff like that. but when it comes to just actually playing it, when you can separate that and you can view it through that lens and you're like, okay, I'm just going to play this. I'm going to see what these shots do. I'm going to see what this song beat does. And then it gets fun trying to hit combos, trying to build up your multiplier. It gets fun trying to decide what type of tour that you would like to go on to. So yeah, stuff like that. It's, it's a, thank you. Thank you. It only took me a year to get that down. But yes. So yeah, It's a good game. I would say, you know what, I thought it was a below-average game when I first got it, and I would say I think the code pulls it to an above-average game for a lot of people, including myself. I think if you do the straight down the middle, like, I don't know, if we actually went through and rated it based on art and all these things, maybe you'd end up at the straight down the middle B-plus or whatever. But the code really, the code makes that a lot of fun. The code's a star. I will tell you, the thing that I probably enjoyed more than anything, though, was I freaking love that upper flipper shot. I don't know why that was my shot. I could hit it, and nothing brought me more joy than having Travis watch me stream or even Raymond. Raymond would watch me stream and be on the mic, and he would get annoyed at how often I was hitting that upper flipper shot. It's crazy, Tom. It's like Joel is channeling his inner Eric Stone. He just all of a sudden is just willing the ball to go exactly where he wants it to go. That was great. Absolutely. All right, so that was release number one, technically the end of last year. So after that was Mando. Mando came out. I would say that the initial reveal of Mando was really good. People were like, holy cow, this looks really fun. Look at that upper play field. Look at the artwork. Look, they got video assets. Like, they have everything in this game. This is, I don't, there wasn't anything from the initial Stern videos that were screaming negative. Except for, I know Travis over here is freeze-framing things and laying out shots, and he's like, I don't know about that shot. No, look, there's posts next to the scoop. I don't know.
    16:57
    He was very scared of the scoop. I did say, too, that that U-turn shot is going to give people some fits because that feed is all over the place. Yeah. And what happened, Tom? Gave people fits.
    17:12
    You got to admit, the initial reveal was all positive. I mean, it's sold out. Like, Mando's a huge thing. Yeah. The game's sold out crazy. I mean, I think, what was it? Like, Tom, you were even in a position where it's like, crap, should I even open my LE? Because they were selling for thousands over asking. Joel, I have this confirmed that as of last week, a Mando LE, a used one, went for $16. Wow. What? Yes. There's Star Wars fans out there. Like, here's the thing about pinball, and not to go off too far in the weeds, because I was the one that said, hey, let's not go too far off in the weeds. But there's always somebody showing up in pinball that's brand new. And guess what? Every theme they see, no matter how long it's been out, that is a brand new theme to them. And it's going to be as valuable as they say that we want it here in our house, in our game room. And that's just how it is. But, yeah, the touch base, though, the initial reveal to it, I actually really enjoyed it. And I actually I got a bunch of shit for this, but I actually teared up at the end of it just because I heard the music. And I watched Star Wars so much with my dad as a kid that it just brought back all those memories. And, of course, you know, my dad, he passed away a little over a decade ago. So it just reminded me of something that I'm like, this is something that touches a place in me that I can remember my childhood. And that's kind of, I think, where a lot of people our age come from. And when we see these themes, it is nostalgia based. It is something that we're like, hey, this is what we remember when we had no cares in the world. You know, when we didn't have the pressure and the stress of trying to produce a podcast for TPN and everybody. You know what I mean? Oh, yeah. It was very stressful. Oh, man.
    18:56
    Yeah. But no, it's so I mean, I love what they did with it. I love the theme. I mean, there there is some things that it turns out, obviously, it's lacking. but I would probably venture to put it a notch below Led Zeppelin because of everything with it. I mean, it's a very up the middle game right now, but I know Dwight's trying to figure that out. I mean, cause he's coming out with different codes and I mean, I think eventually it could get there, but I don't know when it'll get there though. Yeah. Do you think the game got less enjoyable when the hurry up in the center got added?
    19:34
    Yeah. I think it made it to where it very much became even more centric, like hit it up the middle game. Right. You know, but what I would argue, and I talked to somebody about this exact same thing the other day, Tom, what I would say about it, I think if you're a casual, well, let me back up. I don't think Mandalorian is meant for players that are just fully ingrained in pinball. That's just like eat, breathe. I need one pin in my, you know, my collection. and I'm going to play this nonstop. I'm going to figure out all the ins and outs. I think what Mando really appeals to, I think it really appeals to the casual, and it gives you something visual to hit right up the middle, which is what Brian Eddy does. He's famous for a lot of his games. It gives you a point of reference. Now, yes, it's not necessarily a bash toy in this sense. It's just it looks like a ship with, I don't even know, a Razorcrest target. I miss where that dangles in the show, but it's there right now. So, I mean, yeah, I think if you're a casual, and Joel can probably touch base on this with his friends and family. Oh, I thought you were saying I was the casual. No, no.
    20:47
    You figure it out a little bit, too, because here's the thing. When you first play it, it is fun because it's Star Wars. You hear the music. You see the clips. You see the artwork. And when you're not worried about necessarily the rule set, you don't have to worry about going up the middle all day long. You might play the missions, and that will cause you to span more shots. It's just if you're competitive or you're going for score, you realize pretty quick that the game has an imbalance that's geared towards just going up the middle the whole time. And, of course, once that game got put into Expo, it got exposed for that. And that's what a lot of people started doing. But the good news is that gives real-world feedback. and something that we were talking about that maybe Led Zeppelin didn't have, maybe GNR didn't have, maybe any games that came out during the pandemic didn't have at the beginning of it. So something like that is at least a plus in my eyes. I think that'll give enough real-world feedback that maybe there'll be some changes up ahead that can make it to where it's more balanced out and gives you a reason to start going for other shots. And I know that was the intention with the new code that just released recently for a competitive standpoint, where you have to use Hunter to relight the middle.
    21:57
    Yeah, makes sense. And I know as a review, you know, wrapping up the year, like, Tom, you still own your LE. You still have Gando. So, you know, why? Why do you still have it, or what's your thought over the last, I don't know, it hasn't been a full year, but over the last, I don't know, eight months that you've had it, you know, has your views changed or varied? I haven't played the new 1.0 code, so I can't really comment on that. I actually just uploaded it before we got live, so I've just been busy. Life's been busy lately, and Godzilla came out, so I've been playing a lot of that, so that's been a huge thing too.
    22:42
    But no, I plan to give it its paces, but I enjoy the game. I just, like Travis was alluding to, I just hope that there's a little more balance.
    22:57
    But mine's not going anywhere, so that's if that's what you were alluding to. No, I just think, I mean, as time goes on, you know, here we are at the end of the year. You know, what are your overall thoughts? But I do know I got to give it to Dwight. Well, all coders. I mean, trying to find that balance to you guys are, you know, well, maybe not Travis, but Tom, you're a top 50 player. So it's how do you provide code for somebody like you and your son? Joel.
    23:29
    He's a top 50 player now. Oh, he is? Eat it, Joel. What number are you? 45. Okay, so you're not a top 40 player like Tom and his son Neil. So, but, yeah, I mean, trying to write code for that, for you guys, and then for my friends and family, yeah, I absolutely think they've killed it with a – it's funny you're talking about Mando being nostalgic, like bringing nostalgia to it because it's a modern theme, but because Star Wars is so impactful, and it's – yeah, it's awesome. I mean, they're crushing it. You know they sold a ton of them. I know there's a guy that was watching my Mando streams months ago out in Australia, and I think he, like, just got his. So there are people, this is their most modern thing, or most modern pin.
    24:20
    But overall, I mean, it's a fun time. I did enjoy it when I had it, but I did, I don't know, of all the games that I've borrowed over the last year, it's not one that I miss nearly as much as some of the other ones. So fun game. I think when we look Twippy wise, I I think it would you could potentially argue, you know, best art or even potentially best theme just because of how well it's it's loved. But it is a fun game and I think it's fun for a lot of different people. And I bet if they can tweak the code a little more to really make the tournament players happy, it could it could really have some staying power. Well, I think, too, before we wrap this up with a nice little bow, I think it is important to point out that, you know, code-wise, you're trying to appeal to the most amount of people. You're not going to make everybody happy. But the most important thing to point out about this, too, is, you know, there's a lot of options in this game. I think it's, I don't know if they call it impossible plates still, but they have that in there to where you kind of, it's kind of like GNR to where you can't stay trapped up for too long and everything's on hard. So that's actually a pretty good trainer. If you're looking at, if you own a Mando right now and you haven't played that yet, I would highly encourage you to do it because it will make you better. Like, just do it for two weeks straight. You'll be amazed at how much you'll improve across the board. So that's nice. You know, the one-verse-two or one-verse-three or hero or monster play, whatever they call it, the team-up stuff to where you can play co-op. I mean, so there's a lot of cool options that are still in it. They give you different looks on how to play it. So, I mean, I honestly believe that the people that want the code to be a little bit something more, which I am in that group, I still think that we're probably very much in the minority. Sure. I think anybody getting their Mando, they're probably just jamming out and they're just they're enjoying it. I mean, that's why it's selling as much as it is. And that's why LEs are still going for the prices that they're going for. Yeah, absolutely. So good game.
    26:17
    After Mando was Godzilla. Right? Yeah. Godzilla came out. Travis, do your best Godzilla roar. Okay. Sorry.
    26:31
    No. So Godzilla came out, and Godzilla changed a lot of things. And we'll get more into this. But, one, the price went way up. Insider Connect was included. But also, I mean, we really gushed about it last episode. But Keith, I mean, the initial impression of Godzilla when they released the videos, I mean, everybody, everybody was just like, holy cow, look at what this is. And then people started being able to play them, and the reaction was, holy cow, look at this game. And then Tom got his LE, and I think he cried himself to sleep like a week straight just out of joy. I mean, it's just. I know. I felt bad for Tom's wife. He, like, kicked her out of the room. You put the L.E. in the room. I need a moment. Yeah.
    27:24
    I don't know. There's nothing really. I think we could probably keep Godzilla Talk relatively short because we talked a ton about it last episode. But it has, in my opinion, has really set the bar for how great these games can be. It's really good. I don't see any way possible with the Twippies coming up pretty soon. I think Godzilla is the type of release that just pretty much has skunked everything. And it's almost like that in itself is almost going to make the Twippies an afterthought because I don't see how any game is going to beat this on any level or even come close. Game of the year, I would assume code.
    28:07
    Theme is debatable, depending on theme. I mean, it's great, but theme becomes a – I think there's a lot of people that just argue, like, the theme, you know, which one they like better. Do you like Halloween more or Godzilla more? Yeah, so think about this. The one thing that we're saying that it has a chance to lose on is theme. Yeah. Shots and layout, it'll absolutely win. Well, even the artwork, even because we were even talking about, like, maybe franchise art or something like that would have looked more appropriate for Godzilla. But even then I think with Zombie Yeti he still like he the king of pinball The art is great but Yeah it going to be hard for him to be dethroned But Halloween art is really good There people that really like that There no way it going to lose to Halloween art But there a chance that like with Metallica winning Game of the Year you know if somebody posts on a Halloween forum, like, hey, hop on here and vote for Halloween, there's a chance Halloween could win, you know? You think that there's enough Halloween fans out there that they're going to raid Twippy? I don't know. But I'm just thinking of actual art packages. Like, Mando art package is very good. It is. That was like the only complaint of Godzilla, which I didn't really understand, was the art. Yeah, I don't have any complaints there. Like it was too cartoony or there was too much red used. Too much green in Godzilla. Oh, the colors. Oh, is this where we use the phrase, what's the phrase, that the colors pop? They pop a lot. The colors just pop. I think the artwork is great. Actually, on both of the games, Halloween and – Man, my junior high art teacher would be so proud of me that I'm able to just look at artwork now.
    29:49
    Joel, why are you shaking your head? Is that – you're going to end on that, that you can look at artwork now? That's what you're proud of? Well, I can look at artwork, and I can be like, hey, that pops. Oh, okay. That pops. Good, good, good, good. I know what I'm talking about when it comes to art. B plus. Wow. Yeah. If anybody has a drawing or a painting that they're proud of and they want an honest review of it, please email it to tripledrain.gmail.com, and Travis will put in his fine criticism. He'll let them. It'll just say, it pops, Travis. What could Godzilla possibly lose at, though? With a fan vote, what could it possibly lose at? We should absolutely, when the Twippies are revealed, we can go through and say our whole thing. But all I can think of is the biggest, and you know it, when the game had been out for a month or two, literally the only negative feedback was art. And it was like half the people saying, I just think people were trying to find something to nitpick. But you're right. It'll sweep almost everything else, probably everything else. I mean, it's like the call-outs, though, hit the lamp. I mean, I don't know. That's nothing to write home about. But it really is. It's an amazing game all around. If straight down the middle gives that a B+, I'm unsubscribing because it's not a B+, and they need to change their rating system at that point. They should give it a gold tier B+, or what they do.
    31:23
    All right, so that's pretty much Stern. I would assume there will be another Stern game out. No, there's one more Stern. Oh, you're right, you're right. We have the Jurassic Park home pin, Jack Danger's home pin. and technically and the Elvira 40th edition came out as well. The Home Pin, I think we talked a little bit about that. I had a chance to play one at Expo. Travis, have you played one yet? I have not. I've watched video on it, though. I mean, it looks like a fast shooter. It shoots well. It's a fun game. My only criticism is it's more just a pin criticism. You know, when the game feels smaller, the lockdown bar isn't all metal. Like, it just feels like a cheaper machine. Then again, if you're at a family leisure store and that's the only pinball machines they have and a casual person doesn't know, I mean, they may think it's incredible. I don't know. I think it's a fun game. I enjoyed my time on it. I think it's good for a home pin game. Yeah. It's probably the best one. I haven't played the Star Wars, the pin or whatever, Supreme. I didn't play that. Or there was a spider. I haven't played those, but I would assume the Jurassic Park one is the most fun based on what I'm seeing and code-wise and everything. But I don't have a ton to say about it other than the art looks good. It is fun to shoot. And I'm assuming the people that have them like them because I haven't heard anything else.
    32:48
    And then Elvira 40th Edition. I want to expose. Looks great, but it is crazy expensive. Yeah. Elvira. Yep. That's all we got. It's pricey and it's Elvira. Yeah. I mean, there was some new stuff to it, though, right? Didn't they? What'd they change on it? It's a different powder-coated color. The armor, the powder coating, the side art, they put a special shooter rod on it. It's like a dagger. It's like a little dagger, yeah. Did Elvira give anything away? Because then why did it come with a couch or something like that? No couch. I think it comes with a signed book from her or something like that. Yeah. Okay. A signed book.
    33:36
    I don't know. If you're cool. You sound excited about that, Travis. That's your deal. A mirrored black glass that says 40th edition on it. A mirrored black glass or back glass? Back glass.
    33:51
    Travis, of all people, that should be criticizing anybody else for how they say words. Probably not you. Words are hard. Okay. Yeah. Do you think if the 40th edition was at the regular LE price that that would have sold insanely well? I mean, the reality is Elvira is selling well regardless, right? Yeah, you can't get a premium, which we should talk about that this year being the year that you can't get games. Clearly. Well, Tom, you've said that you have been interested in Elvira. If you knew right now you could call Zach and you could get just a normal premium in four months. Yeah, I would buy one. Yeah, but you can't. There's no – no. Yeah. Well, you can get the 40th. Shell out $25,000, $30,000, Tom. You can get that book. You can get that signed book. That's two years from my blood.
    34:47
    And that's coming from the elitist over here. The elitist. Yeah. It's crazy to me that there's like at least one or two more tiers of insane pinball spenders in this hobby above Tom, which is great. It's awesome. Oh, yeah. There's a lot of people with FU money floating around out there. All right. So that is it for Spooky.
    35:09
    For Stern. Wow. For Stern. We're moving on. We'll just go ahead and hit Spooky. I'm dealing with amateurs today. So Spooky, at the beginning of the year, they wrapped up Rick and Morty. They've moved facilities. They didn't move facilities. I think they just added on other facilities. They've grown a ton. and they announced Halloween and Ultraman, both of which sold out within hours.
    35:34
    Non-refundable deposits. People were really, yeah. The initial review, I think people were very excited about it. They had not shown an ounce of gameplay. Not an ounce. It sold out based on, I think there were some pictures of the play field, and that was about it. But there were plenty of people, Travis being one of them, that put the play field pictures out and started laying out shots and had a lot of questions about how is this thing going to work, how is this thing going to shoot. Then they did the reveal. I remember Jack did the reveal of both Ultraman and Halloween at the same time. It was on a Saturday.
    36:15
    And once that stream came out, that's when everything changed. Yeah, that was a big mistake. And we were even talking about that in one of the streams. Or it might even been on this podcast that we were like, this is going to make or break, and there's really no need to do this because they already sold out the allotment. They already got the money. It's like all you're going to do then is just show all the flaws. Sure. And I didn't think it was the smartest thing to do, but they did it, and then what happened right afterwards? Yeah. Well, we've talked a lot about Halloween. I know, Travis, you've done it a lot on your podcast. We had Carl D'Angelo on here who streamed Halloween. has since sold his Halloween. So just, Tom, I know this is your favorite thing to talk about. Go ahead and wrap up the Spooky reveal for us with Halloween and Ultraman. I have no comment on Halloween or Ultraman. I'm sick of talking about it.
    37:11
    Well, I will just say the same thing we always say, which I hope, you know, the code is, they have, we have, Spooky has recently hired two new, I think they're coders. So I think both of the guys that they've hired are specifically for programming and code. So we will see. There was one programmer hired and one that seemed like quality control person. Oh, okay. So maybe it was the only one. And then I know, I thought I saw this on Facebook and on one of the forums, that Bowen isn't doing rules for them. Correct. Done. So this is just all like everybody spooky, everybody in-house. Yep. So, I mean, well, here's the good news. They still sold out the allotments. So regardless of the criticism that the game gets before, the silver lining is that they can learn now. They can see what worked, what didn't work, and apply it to the next project that's coming out or apply it to the current project until you see it to its finality, to the final code and everything with that. But I do think, if anything, this does kind of give kind of like a case study that what Spooky does really well is building up brand loyalty. I think that they do that excellent. And when they have a lot of people waiting and hitting F5 and wanting to buy this game and put down a deposit on day one, that's a win. Regardless of what happens afterwards, that's still a win. So I still think that they have a chance to right the ship, to make the adjustments that they need to make. And I believe that we will see that next year. I'm willing to bet anything that they're working on that currently right now. Yeah. And I think Spooky has proved that if you can be a reliable company, as in you will produce a game, and you have a killer license, that's all you really need to sell out in pinball right now. Yep. Well, just like you pointed out, the great thing about Spooky, they're going to announce a game, and it's going to show up, and it's going to be in people's houses. people can feel comfortable knowing that if they put down a deposit, they're going to get a final game. And so that says a lot about a company and says a lot about their culture. Unlike the next company. They are not Deep Root Pinball. Yeah, we're going. So I don't think we'll just let Tom, you go ahead. Travis, we don't need to say anything here. Tom can handle this all on his own. Tom, Deep Root Pinball.
    39:34
    Two words sums up Deep Root Pinball. Deep shit. Oh. So, okay. Sure, we'll just leave it at that. The good thing is Bowdoin is free now. Bowdoin is free, which is a good transition. Everybody that worked there is free. Thank God. Well, no, there's somebody that may be behind bars. Well, yeah. You know. Oh, you're in CEO. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, he's a little qualifier. He's FUBAR. We're going to get there. He is FUBAR. So, yeah, there's plenty. If anybody is unfamiliar, they can figure it out on their own. But Deep Root has been talked about way more than it should have this year. And, yeah, good riddance. And Travis is the only person on this podcast who's actually played Araza. So what are your comments? Are you disappointed that this game isn't going to be released, Travis? I'm disappointed that Bowden didn't get to get his vision of something out there. Yeah. And I'm disappointed for the people that decided to take a chance on it. Of course. And tried to get the game. I mean, it's whatever. I'm not a fan of doing something like they did, and obviously they got burnt, but at least they tried. Yeah, sure. So, with that being said, I'm glad nobody has to go through the whole half ramp thing and all that like I had to go through. So, yeah. I would say the only positive thing I can say about Deep Root is Fliptronic had an opportunity. Jordan Beck had an opportunity to stream it. And that stream, it was great for them. They did a great job with last-minute arrangements and that, I don't know, that stream. I was happy for them in that stream. But Steve Bowden, Steve Bowden was at Deep Root. He has now changed companies, and we're going to talk about this a little later with company hires. But Steve Bowden is now at American Pinball. So American Pinball this year, still trying to get out Hot Wheels at the beginning of the year because nobody had played them. I had a chance to borrow one. I enjoyed it. I had a lot of fun on the game. The game's built like a tank. It's an incredibly well-built game. But as of now, I mean, they're still technically producing like Oktoberfest and Houdini. I mean, they're still making some of their old games. But the big news was right at the beginning of Expo, they announced Legends of Valhalla, which was initially a homebrew game, and American Pinball has picked it up, and they are producing. So Riot Pinball, I think, was the original people that made the game, and now American Pinball is making the game.
    42:11
    I don't know if they've shipped any to consumers yet. I know there are locations that have them. There's a location in – there's two in Wisconsin that I know of that have one. There's one in Madison. There's one in De Pere, which is near Green Bay. Cool. And, yeah, it's – I had a chance to play one. Apparently there was – they've since fixed a flipper issue. So my initial complaints were the flippers felt weak. Apparently they fixed that.
    42:44
    I don't know. Travis, did you play one? I had a chance to, and I skipped it because I kind of just forgot. It was down at Freeplay. I ended up playing Godzilla instead, and then I saw Cactus Canyon and Squirrel. I went left instead of right. Sure. But, I mean, I've watched video on it, and, I mean, it's – so here's my thing with Legends of Valhalla. I'm not a huge fan of the theme in pinball. If it was a movie, I would watch it all day long. With pinball, I'm just kind of like, you know, it's whatever. But the thing that I'm kind of worried about, because initially American Pinball was going to put this out with 300. They advertised that there's 300 units, and that's the final number. Then all of a sudden, out of nowhere, they're like, oh, you know, it's 500. And I forget the reason that they gave. I think that they said that they meant to do that all the time. And many controversies, whatever. They said that it sold out before half of the world had a real chance to buy one. So they wanted to think of the international buyers. Yeah. So, yeah, it was something odd like that. But now here we are, it's mid-December, and now we're trying to wonder, you know, are these even in homes yet? And we just know that there's a few out in location. So it's kind of like all this hype, whatever hype was there initially, it's the same thing that we see over and over again to where it's just kind of come and gone, and now everybody's just kind of looking at each other like, is this out? Is it not out? Has it shipped? And that's, I mean, that's kind of the weird thing when you don't have that many units that are going to go to the end consumer. yet you release it all so early and you can't get enough out in time. It's kind of like, you know, it just becomes off people's radar. And so that's my biggest worry for that game, and it makes me wonder how is American Pinball going to approach that in 2022 if they're wanting to come out with more than one pin per year. Because I remember David Fick said something about wanting to release at least, what, two pins a year? Yeah. Up to three. I forget exactly. I don't want to misquote, but I remember something about it being more than one. So I'm kind of curious to see how that plays out, and I'd kind of like to see them in the future announce these games, but have the games ready to go within a couple of weeks because that's where Stern really capitalizes on. And if you don't have the manufacturing capability to do something like that, then to me it's just like plan accordingly. Get your raw materials, your parts in that you can. Get some games built. Show it off. Get it out to consumers and build it up more that way. You know, that way you don't lose. You don't lose all that hype because, I mean, here it is. Even Jack Danger streamed it, right? Yeah. And I didn't hear anybody talking about that afterwards. I got literally no messages from anybody talking about the game. And usually during any type of stream that Jack does as a debut, I get several messages from people, you know, and that includes spooky games, that includes stern games, whatever it could be. So that's kind of where I'm a little worried about. But, again, at least with Bowden there and some other hires that they're doing, they got, what was it, Dennis Nordman that they got at the beginning of the year, I believe. So, I mean, they're probably going to get the ship going in the right direction. I think it's just kind of figuring out the kinks from here. I forgot about that, that at the beginning of the year they hired Dennis, and then Dave Fix is now at American Pinball, and he was on, like, every podcast. And for, I feel like, a month or two straight, he was just podcasting for podcasts. just shilling the heck out of American Pinball, which he should. I mean, he's a big guy. Yeah, he's got to pump them up. Yeah, and they hired, I cannot think of her name, but it's a mechanical engineer. She engineered the Doctor Who mech. Okay, yeah. They hired her, so they hired Steve. I mean, American Pinball is investing in their company with talent, and so I know they really have not done, I would say, Legend of the Hollow is like 98% the exact same as when Riot Pinball was making it. They had to change the code to get it onto the American Pinball, like, code frame. But they're not adding, they're not changing the rules. Steve Bowden isn't coming in and telling them to read. They are just making that game. So I'm very interested to see what's coming next. And technically, I mean, they said two pinball machines this year, so maybe they'll reveal one in the next, I don't know, 18 days, but probably not. And let's not forget, in the beginning of the year, they hired Dennis Nordman as well.
    47:12
    Yes. Yes, they did. Travis. He did not say that. Yes, he did. He said, Steve. We said, Steve. And then he said, it's all right. We're going home. Bye.
    47:27
    But, yes, Dennis Nordman's there. And I remember when Dennis Nordman came out, he basically ripped a new one. He's like, I'm designing all these things. I finally have a mechanical engineer. So we'll see. I would say, to be honest. I love Tom Graff, by the way. This is why I do the podcast right here. What planet are we on? Yeah.
    47:45
    So 2021, yeah, not a ton other than I think 2021 just felt kind of like a rebuilding year for American pinball. And we'll see. We'll see what comes next. They also got an art director, I think, at the beginning of the year, too. I remember vaguely something about, I think it was in February. Yeah. Nobody really talked about it, but I know that they hired a new art director also. I think that was, yeah, because they had a lot of criticism for their art packages. So they're getting the right pieces for what they need. So it looks like they're preparing for something in the future. Now it's just a matter of getting – you got all the pieces. It's just a matter of putting it all together and getting the ship going. Don't forget they hired Dennis Norman. Oh, yeah. That's the beginning of the year. I've heard about that.
    48:33
    Yeah. All right, so American Pinball, all good stuff there. And then let's go to Haggis. Haggis, so we go from America to Australia, Haggis Pinball.
    48:43
    Haggis and Damien and the crew there, first off, Marty. Marty is now full-time. Martin Roberts is now full-time there, which is good for him. But I know Haggis, probably every one of these companies has been hit hard with COVID and manufacturing delays and parts delays. But I've got to give it to Damien. And Damien's done an amazing job with videos and showing the current state of the factory and the current state of what they are doing. And, boy, does it seem like Australia has been hit hard. I think he's in Melbourne. It has really been locked down. So they are still, I think they are just now wrapping up kilts.
    49:16
    Zach Minney actually has one of the kilts. They air shipped one over to him. So I think they're finally wrapping that up. But they're about to move on to their next game, which is Fathom, which they announced. I don't remember when they announced that. July. So middle of the year, announced Fathom. And how exactly did they do it? They basically are like, we're rebuilding the game. It looks amazing. There was going to be a – there was like a classic edition, which is just a rebuilt version of the original game, and then they have this other – the Mermaid edition that was more. It had all these other bells and whistles, but the big deal there was it has Fathom 2.0 code, which Martin has written. You just reminded me. Whenever you said that, it's actually April it came out. So it's been a lot longer than July. Okay. So Halloween was in July, and Fathom by Haggis was the end of April. So that's how long it's been. Quite a long time. We still have not seen it streamed. We haven't seen an ounce of it being played. The Mermaid Edition, this 2.0 code, is still a mystery. All we've seen is a few pictures. I think there was a video showing, like, this kind of reflective coding that they put on the outside of the game.
    50:32
    But with that said, I don't think anybody's, like, worried about it. Like, we all trust Haggis. I think we trust, and maybe that's due to their communication, that they're showing what's going on. They have somebody like Martin Robbins, who we trust, is on board. I don't know. I think it just seems like in general the pinball hobby is not worried about Haggis actually producing these games.
    50:58
    Yeah, well, it's kind of one of those weird things, too, because I remember when it was initially announced, and this is where I kind of got my dates crossed up here. At the end of April, they ended up announcing, I think this was on Twip, that July 1st was when they were supposed to go into production. And their initial plans were to have at least 50 per month. Yeah. So we obviously have overshot that completely unless they're meaning July of 2022. I don't know. But I mean, that's kind of what I've noticed with a lot of the companies out there. I know American Pinball did this, too, when they were talking about having two games out this year. A lot of people just kind of underestimated just the supply chain and just the hang ups that were going to come with this. And this one is just, I don't know. I mean, we missed it by several months, obviously. So I'm not going to lie. I'm a little worried, but I'm not worried about their intentions on building it. What I'm more worried about is when are they going to get the parts in to put this all together, assuming that they sold out of everything. They did. I remember they sold out. They did not sell out nearly like, you know, all these modern games, which are selling out, you know, I think Godzilla L.E. was sold out before the game was even officially revealed or mentioned.
    52:19
    But I do know, I think they had set a week or a month, and they're like, this is how long you have to order these games. And they sold them all, which is great.
    52:29
    I don't know. Tom, any thought on Haggis? Didn't they do Kelts? They did do Kelts. Yep. And Dennis Nordman does not work at Haggis either. Hey, did you know American Pinball picked him up? Really? Yeah. Dennis Nordman? Yeah, good on him. No shit. Oh, how about that? Yeah, so good for him, yeah.
    52:53
    I don't know. I'm excited. I'm excited to see what Haggis does. I'm excited to see what Haggis does for sure. Another small company.
    53:01
    Well, P3. I know we've talked a lot about P3. My lawyer said I can't talk about P3. Yeah, Tom got a lot of hate mail.
    53:14
    I had a chance to play a P3 at Expo, really, to talk about P3 in 2021. They have talked a lot. They have talked a lot about this next game. Tom, be professional here. Yeah, they've talked. Sorry.
    53:29
    I don't know. What's the next game, Joel? Well, they have just said it's going to be a licensed game, and Scott Fenice is doing the music. And I don't know when they first mentioned that. But I feel like it's been a lot of months about this, waiting on this game, waiting on this game. Obviously, they've hit manufacturing delays. But with that said, I do know, I bet this has to be P3's best-selling year ever.
    53:55
    Well, it came out with several things this year, right? Was Heist this year? Heist was last year because it won Best Toy in the Pinball Industry Awards. So what was this year then? I know that they have the new Flipper. Sorcerer's Apprentice was a year. Sorcerer's Apprentice is the only game they've released this year. Without Nick Cage. Yes, without Nick. There was another homebrew game. I forget what it was called. Something Falls, right? Yeah. It's not Serenity Falls? No, no. What is it? It's something like that. Hey, mail, Travis. This is going to bug me. No, I want to know what it is. Well, do your Google. Close your VR porn browser. and trying yeah trying i'm getting all these pop-ups so so p3 p3 i i do know they've sold a bunch this year and i think a big part of that is just the overall demand of pinball machines you can't buy anything and so people are like well what can i buy and the p3 turnaround's only like three months or four months so there's i know of a lot of people that have bought the p3 i know even within tpn there's been a bunch of people that have bought the p3 um but actual releases they They did just announce a new mech for the flippers that are going to be stronger, more accurate. Silver Falls. Silver Falls, yeah, we were right there. And Ranger in the Ruins. Oh, well, no, Ranger in the Ruins was last year. Last year. Yeah, because I remember Ranger in the Ruins was one of the games listed that we could vote on last year. Did you know that Dennis Norman?
    55:30
    I Googled P3, and I got portable protein packs that came up. Oh, okay. Did those come out this year? They did. Oh, good. Sweet. So they're diversifying. That's nice. I'm so glad that your Googling skills, Tom, live up to everything else. You're welcome, Joel.
    55:50
    Jerry, when does this next game come out, though? They haven't said anything. They said soon. They're trying to wrap up. I mean, and I don't know if my guess is, and maybe Jerry's being smart, being I think it's going to sell well. Whatever it is, I think it's going to sell well. So I would hope that they're trying to get everything, all their ducks in a row. and get all the parts together. So they're not doing exactly what you're talking about with Legends of Valhalla of throwing the game out and then losing height. I mean, I think they want to make sure, because the P3 is such a, it is a smart system in the fact that if they know how many people own their system, let's say for easy math, it's 100. I don't know. Is that low? I don't know. But let's say it's 100. The chance, if they release a new play field, there's a good chance 95 people are going to buy that play field, especially in today's market. So they need to have enough parts to make at least their current owner's worth, and they will probably sell systems based on this. I mean, that's the one thing P3 lacks, in my opinion, is that cornerstone game that is the platform seller. You know, because if we're going to look at a P3 pinball machine like a console, like an Xbox or a PlayStation, right, it's got to have that one game that pushes a lot of units out. It's got to have its Spider-Man like PlayStation has. It's got to have its Halo like Xbox has. I think that's what it's lacking right now. So it's possible that this next one that's coming out, the licensed theme, Scott Denise is on it. His music, to me, with the way that P3 games look like, that makes sense. Like from a – I can't even talk. A Sin District I can even talk There no way you said that word right I going to say it Syn I don is that a word I don know Synergy? I can say that. Synergy? Go ahead.
    57:44
    It's going to have a lot of synergy. Okay. Yeah. No, you're right. I agree. And that's all I can think of. I don't know. With working with licensors, I know that's a problem and things can be delayed. So I don't know what the delays are. I'm assuming it's parts related, and I hope that they're being smart, because that would suck if they – you're pointing to your mug. I'm not agreeing to you. That's why. Oh, okay. My mouth's all dry. Well, we'll just suffer through it.
    58:15
    No, that's all I can think of, because it would suck if I was a P3 owner and they just announced this amazing game, and they're like, I'm buying it. And they're like, eh, we only have enough to make, like, you know, you're going to have to wait. I don't know. We'll see. So we'll see on P3, but not a ton other than I think 2021 was a good year for them in sales, and I do think that the curiosity and exposure of the program is growing, or the platform is growing. So I think they have motivation, or steam. I think they're doing well, personally. They have synergy. That's what you're trying to say. No, synergy, you can say that. It's whatever the other form of the word you're trying to say. That's not, there's no way that's a word. I still can't say it. There's no – I wish Mark would – You try to say it. I don't even think it's a word. I don't know what you're saying. It is a word. I'm saying it's in district. I don't know. It's not getting better, man. The word keeps changing. It's not at all. I'm going to Google this right now.
    59:12
    This is not what – This is going to be a word. Anyway, so what else can we talk about? Well, one of us actually talked – let's actually do a podcast while you learn how to speak the English language. All right, so that was P3. I'll try to listen to you this time too, Joel. I don't think so. Oh, it's a word. Oh, it's a word, yeah. Go ahead and say it. See, I was right. It's not a word.
    59:33
    Listen. Synergistic. You are so wrong. It's synergistic. Holy crap. You are so wrong. Oh, boy. 37 years. I have no idea. That's how that word's pronounced. I feel like I'm senior year English. There's an ER. Oh, boy.
    60:02
    Synergy. Okay, it makes so much sense. It's a real world. So back to pinball, everybody. All right. Yeah, Tom.
    60:14
    I think the three of us have really good synergy. I think that is Norman's at American Pinball, but I'm not sure. Hey, if the three of us. How many companies has Dennis Norman been at? All of them is the answer. Just one this year, American Pinball. He's never been at Spooky, has he? I don't think so. He's worked kind of with them. But anyways. What part of the podcast are we at in the notes right now?
    60:44
    Dennis Norman's Spooky Rumor. So we only have one more big one left, which is JJP. So JJP this year. Let's roll. Wow. JJP this year, GNR was released last year. They spent the entire year making GNR. Nothing new released. They've had a few code releases. The only big thing that they've released technically is scorebit integration on all their games, which is cool. So now there's achievements built into JJP games. And they made two big hires. They hired Steve Ritchie. So we will see having Steve Ritchie on board is huge. I know him as a designer. He has a fan base. Clay butter Joel. Exactly. So I'm excited to see what he does. I have no idea if we're going to see anything in 2022 that Steve Ritchie does. It may be another year after that. And then they hired, I feel bad we didn't look up the guy's name, but it's Mark. Mark something. So sorry. but he's the designer of Metroid Homebrew. So they picked up another designer. So they went from two designers to four designers.
    61:51
    So once again. Is it Seiden? Mark Seiden? Sure. That sounds right. That sounds great. I know how to pronounce words, so I think this is correct. Wonderful. Okay.
    62:01
    So, yeah, that's, I don't know. Tom, do you have anything to add for JJP? well I mean I guess they had some issues with playfields early on oh yeah I forgot about the negative side that's what I'm here for Joel he still has his right behind him he's right here so you're correct a lot of playfield discussion there's a lot of Mirko discussion you know why are they still going with Mirko when you know Stern has I haven't heard of a single playfield complaint with Godzilla I don't even know if I heard of a single playfield complaint with Mando am I wrong on that I mean I think Stern has kind of figured it or started to improve or kind of figured that out but yet GNR yeah I haven't heard anything really about Stern playfields recently I mean I think we've all accepted you know the dimples and stuff like that but No, I just, the actual chipping, though. There's no ripple or anything. Yeah.
    63:08
    Tom, what are you messing with right now? Nothing. Are you sure? It's like a, it's something plastic. Yeah, I could hear it. It is something plastic. There's no way I've never done that. Did he actually go? He probably didn't even actually go to the bathroom to use the bathroom.
    63:25
    He just stepped out of frame? Yeah. He probably did. I just have a bottle. Oh, boy. All right. So, I don't know. I mean, there's really not much else to say because they didn't come out with anything. It's really weird because it's a company that released a game that got Game of the Year at the Twippies last year. Yep. Right? It earned that, and a lot of people loved GNR and then nothing in 2021. And I don't know if that was their intentions all along. I don't know if that's a result of supply chain issues. but either way it's going to be odd that they're not going to be able to be back with anything for this year so it's kind of like an off year for them they're not on the ballot the Twippy ballot there will be nothing JJP on the ballot I don't know what the JJP fanboys will vote for or if they'll vote at all there's nothing they got nothing to vote on which is it's really odd it really is just because they moved I mean they obviously moved to Chicago to increase their line a little bit. They re-released some Wonkas this year or put out some more Wonkas. So obviously they're trying to fire up some of the line. They're trying to get people going. But, yeah, obviously they're facing some hurdles there that are still unknown to us, the general public. So I'm really curious to see how they approach that next year. True. So random, here's a real quick side tangent. JGP on their social media released, it was like a picture of a, I don't know, with a piece of paper with some writing on it. And people have said that that looks like the certificate that came in the Pirates of the Caribbean, their Pirates of the Caribbean, like Ellie. So that's kind of the one thing that people are talking about right now. Why would they release that picture? It said something like something's coming or it's insinuating something's coming. So the question is, what are your thoughts real quick? Do you actually think, do you think it's just the code being complete or do you think they might actually make more? I think it's just the code, but there could be a slim possibility that they make more.
    65:35
    I think that if they have the ability to, they need to just vault pirates and put it back out. It doesn't have to be a bunch. I guarantee you if they put out 50 super CEs or something like that, I mean, it would go.
    65:52
    Yeah, they'll sell them all. Yep. Why not? We all know that. I mean, that's for well over a year at this point. If at any point, if J.J.P. made that game again, they would all sell out. They could sell them pretty much at whatever price they wanted to, and people are going to buy them. Well, when did Pirates come out? It was at least two years ago. I want to say like 2018. Yeah. Was it the end of 2018 it got revealed at Expo? Maybe 19. Or was it 2019? It might have been 19. I think it was 19 because did Pirates get Game of the Year? Because it was like Pirates got Game of the Year, and then Avengers got Game of the Year. No, I don't think Pirates did. And then G.R. got Game of the Year. It was Jurassic Park. Oh, I don't know. Maybe I'm just making stuff up. But I don't know. If they made it, it would sell and people would buy it. But I heard this on another podcast, and I'm so sorry for not – I don't remember who exactly said it, But it was if they had availability, if they're done with GNR and the line was open, then what are they waiting for? Does it make sense to delay their next reveal to make a few pirates, or do you just chug into the next reveal? I don't know. We'll see. But that's for next year. I mean, it's not going to happen.
    67:06
    I'd be absolutely shocked if they didn't come out with more pirates. I mean, just judging where the market is currently, because pirates was ahead of the market. It was selling for crazy prices before everything else started blowing up. I mean, you could see some of the prices gradually rising, but Pirates was that first game that really broke through. Yeah, because it hardly sold anything out of the gate, and then it just exploded on third-party market. According to Pennside, it was out in August of 2018.
    67:38
    And Pennside is never wrong. But Travis is. That's correct. We've proven that. So the reality is if they announced Pirates was going back on the line in like the next week, if they announced that before Stern's next game came out, do you think it would impact Stern's sales at all? No. Not at all. It depends how many.
    68:00
    I would say it depends how many. Okay. If they announced, I mean, I don't know, like the Elvira 40th anniversary, I don't think that's impacted anything. Because they're only making a handful of them and the price is so high. the people that are going to buy those are going to buy whatever the next game is too, probably. I think if they release Pirates at a ridiculous price, it's not, I mean, yeah, they'll sell them, but it's not going to hurt Stern's business. No. No, there's no way they're going to be able to do the volume. But if they come out and they're like maybe 12,000, 15,000, and they do a huge volume of them, then maybe it could put a small dent. Yeah, we'll see. We will have to see, and I don't know. We'll know soon-ish, hopefully, because they're teasing something. So that's it for big manufacturers. Real small manufacturers, and we can fly through these real quick. Is it Alien? Who is making Alien? Is it Pinball Brothers? Yes. So Alien, Pinball Brothers got those, released a new version. I mean, basically it's the same game, but they took out the screen in the middle. Was it a wide body before and now it's a standard body? Or did they – no, it's something like they didn't tweak much. They took out the display in the middle of the play field. But that's really – And the back box looks a little different. But, I mean, overall, it's still pretty much the same game. It's just now actually being made.
    69:35
    So those are – you can order those. I think there's a delay on them, but there are people that are getting those, which is neat. I think, is it Dutch Pinball? So they're the ones making Big Lebowski. There are actually some Big Lebowskis that are being made and delivered.
    69:58
    But there's quite a delay on those, too. I don't know of anything when it comes to the original buyers that got screwed, how they're, I don't know, not enough there, but they're still alive, technically. That game is being made.
    70:15
    HomePin, I got nothing really to say. They're still alive. I think they moved shops. There's a new pinball manufacturer out of, like, France that's doing, like, a basketball pinball game. I don't know. I think that's Z-W-E. Yeah. I know what you're talking about. I can't think of the name of the game. We're looking for hoops or something. Some obscure titles here. But, hey, it just releases for 2021. I think that's about it.
    70:47
    Did Pinball Adventures release anything? No. Not yet. No Zach Minigame from Pinball Adventures yet? No. So to wrap that all up, that's where everybody's at. The only real other thing to announce that is new that has been released is Sterns Insider Connected. Sterns Insider Connected, it's new. It's, I mean, we kind of mentioned Scorebit has been out for a while, but Scorebit released achievements. So they've added achievements into, I don't know what all, but I know for sure all the J.J.P. games now have achievements.
    71:24
    I don't know. Real quick, real quick thoughts on, you said earlier, Travis, you put, you said, Led Zeppelin now has Insider Connected. As an operator, what are your quick takes on Insider Connected? I think it's – I haven't got to experience it yet from the operator's standpoint because I'm still waiting on Stern to approve it. Because apparently what I didn't realize was anytime you get your Connect up and running, right, and you attach it to your profile, right, your location, then Stern has to approve it. Okay. Something like that. So I haven't got to experience that yet, but I do like the idea of it just from a standpoint of getting achievements, from enticing people to play the games in different ways, to maybe be able to run promotions and stuff like that. I guess there's still a lot of stuff that's not in there yet that Stern keeps talking about. So it's more or less I'm curious to see what it can do in the future. And I've only gotten a couple so far, and I don't know. I'm not going to have to really worry about getting a bunch for machines that have already been made, but I'm still curious to see what they do with it, and I want to see how this is going to be fleshed out over the coming months. Cool. Tom, do you find yourself using it on your Godzilla?
    72:41
    Yeah. Yeah, when it works. When it works, so it hasn't worked for you? Well, there's been a few times where I've tried to log on and the Insider Connect wasn't working, They might just have had a few days where, like, the server wasn't working or whatever. Like, I'd go into my game and I'm connected, but, yeah, for some reason it would, like, reject it. And then we tried it on location, too, and we kind of had the same issues. And then we went to the website and it was down, so we figured it was just that. Okay. But other than that, I'll say some negatives since Travis said a lot of positives. One thing I don't like about it, which I hope they're going to change, is if I'm on a location and I play a game and my name's still on there, and you have to remember to take your name off because if somebody walks right up to the game, puts coins in, they're playing as you. Yeah. So I don't like that. Are you talking about the 20-second window? Yeah.
    73:55
    Or you can hold the button. You can hold the button to speed that counter up. You can hold the button, but does it casual? No, to hold the button. They should absolutely either make it a standard thing where it'll know if it's on location because you've logged it in as a location game. So it should, by default, automatically log you out after each play on location. It does not. It should. I'm saying they should make that change. Yeah. Because at home, I love it. I love the fact that when I'm streaming Godzilla, I can log in once, and I can log again the rest of the night. Right. But there should be a setting in the game, you know. Yeah. Because I was at a tournament on Thursday, and, you know, I got done playing. My next round started, and then I didn't realize it, but somebody walked up and started playing as me. So, you know, it was kind of comical. But, I mean, at the same time, it's like, well, you know, it'd be nice if it just, on a location game, like you said, just, you know, it automatically cleared it. That should be an easy fix, right? I might have to play devil's advocate on this, though. Go ahead, Travis. Because would it not drive you crazy, though, to have to pull out your phone after every single game if you know that you're staying at the game? That you couldn't just go ahead and just hit start for your replay? Would it drive you nuts if some kid came up and started playing and did not get any achievements? And you were like, oh, my God. Because I'll hit the buttons and make sure the timer goes out. Is that something you're thinking of while you're going to your next game for your tournament? I don't think so. I don't log into your tournaments. That's a difference. Tom, I'm there to win the tournament, not get achievements. Why don't they just have you – they have it automatically log out when you run out of credits. I mean, that would make – that way if you put in a bunch of credits, it keeps you on there. Because it's assuming you put in all the money, you're going to stay there until the money's gone. But once the money's gone – So did you hear that, Joel? Travis just said it's not for tournament players.
    76:00
    Oh, okay. So if you're in a tournament, don't use it. If Travis likes it and you don't, then it's not for top 40 players. That's right. That is correct. But why would you be fiddling with – Okay, so if you had, let me ask you this, Tom. If you're at InDisc, you're in finals, and it's on Godzilla. Yeah. Are you whipping out your phone in front of Raymond Davidson, Keith Elwin, and Eric Stone, and you're like, hold on, guys, we can't start our match yet. Oh, shit, the QR code's not reading. Guys, hang on. Wait, wait. So you're saying there's problems with the QR code reading? No, I'm saying you'll mess it up. Yeah. Oh, no. So you wouldn't use it in that form?
    76:44
    Sure. Why not? Then why have it on the fucking game? For people that want to buy it for home and location. I guarantee you half the casuals don't even know what the fuck that thing is. Now, here's the thing, though. Here's the thing. One, you're correct. Oh, wait, wait, wait. Everybody, what time is this in the – An hour 17 in. Okay. Yes, we got it on recording. Thank you. Thanks for clapping right into the mic there, Tom. Jeez.
    77:20
    He's spiced pizza night. He is. You riled him up. So, two, I think that right now the Insider Connect, it's kind of pointless for tournament players as of right now. But obviously in the future they're going to add in stuff that's going to make sense. to use it, if we're talking about herb formats or to be able to integrate it into some type of tournament software, that would be nice as well to keep track of match play and stuff like that. So I could see that happening in the future, but as of right now, I mean, what I would like to know is who played under your name? It was Mike Weinberg. So Mike just really hurt you, didn't he? He really messed up your profile. Yes. Mike, I'm giving you a thumbs up. You can't see me right now, but I know you're listening. Good job, Mike.
    78:10
    He won the strikes tournament, though, the other night. So he's a pretty good player, right? Oh, yeah. He won the strikes player, yeah. Did he, like, get you an achievement that wasn't? We're not talking about this anymore. Oh, okay. He probably did. Tom's done. Wrap it up. That's what he's doing. I bet Mike got, like, a lifetime achievement for something like that. And Tom walks up to his Ellie at home, and he's like, son of a.
    78:35
    No, but in reality, with the Insider Connect, I don't think a casual player actually knows that that thing exists on the game.
    78:49
    A casual player can't even find the start button half the time. It is. That's exactly it. Yeah. I would say, and I think I mentioned this last podcast, that I think if it's a total casual player that's just walking up to the game by himself, chances of them reading it, signing up, waiting for the e-mail, doing all that, not going to happen. But with that said, my brother-in-law, when he was over here, he saw me log into it. He asked what it was. And being that I am not a casual player was able to instruct him what it was. I sold them on a pretty quick, like I didn't even really have to. Yeah. But that's in your home environment. I'm talking about it. Yeah. On location. Yeah. Um, the, the only negative that I have heard with insider connect is they have changed the format of the display for all their games. And I think they've made it standard now that all four scores will be displayed at the bottom of a game at all times. And the reason that's frustrating is because there are people, there's a lot of people that play by themselves, right? One player at home. And so now you have your scores very small in the lower left, and then you have 3-0-0-0 all the way across. Like I know on Deadpool, it used to just, it was nice and big. So I know on the Deadpool forum, there are people that are like, this is dumb because now my screen is, you know, my score is all the way in the corner. But I get it. CERN is just trying to standardize their displays and keep them. It makes things a little easier. But, I mean, I still think the positive way outweighs the negative, and I think Insider Connect is only going to get better. I want them to make an app, make a dedicated app for sure because logging in every time blows. but yeah I think I don't know I think that's about it for new things right so new releases 2021 new things that came out anything that you guys think I missed that we missed no all right so that was all the stuff that came out so let's transition to the stuff that went away so this is the poor one out forum sad news right off the top of the bat the one that probably hit and hurt the most uh, Pinnberg, Pinnberg in 2021 officially announced that they are done. They sold off like everything. Um, yeah. Did either of you guys, you guys have both been to Pinnberg, correct? Correct. Yeah. I have not had a chance to, I did not have a chance to go. It's unfortunate because there, there was nothing but love for Pinnberg. Um, nothing but love for Pinnberg. And I think because Pinnberg is not there, I think now there's a chance somebody else is going to win best tournament for the Twippies because Pinberg won it every year.
    81:34
    So, unfortunately, Pinberg is gone, and I know the Museum of Pinball is also gone. So those are two things that definitely have impacted the tournament players. And the Museum of Pinball is now a weed distributor, distillery? I don't know. Something like that. Yeah. selling the marijuana. So, yeah, yeah. I don't know. Sad stuff. Sad times all around. I don't know. Any thoughts on that?
    82:07
    Well, with Pinberg, luckily, I think that's been roughly a year ago now. So I've been able to kind of get over that. And then Yegpin up in Canada is kind of doing something similar this July. So something's still coming up in the future. And with Pinball, it'll bounce back to where they'll have some type of tournament or event in the future, I believe. But the Museum of Pinball going away, though, I think that that's a pretty big deal just because the odds of having that many games across the board in one location, the fact that you got to go play in a major pinball tournament also. I mean, it was a fun time. I only got to do it once out there, but it was a lot of fun. And I was really disappointed to see that that wasn't going to come to fruition because what hurt even more about that is the fact that the Museum of Pinball was supposed to be moving to another place. So it looked like that they were even going to expand. It was going to make it easier in order to travel there. I know, Tom, you and I, along with a few others, we're already making plans for here's where we'd stay at. This would make sense because there's an airport right there. There's the easiest way to share a car. I mean, you were able to figure out the logistics easily compared to the way it used to be. And then as soon as they pulled that rug out from under us and they're like, oh, this is no more. And yeah, so it's just kind of hurt. And then you saw the fallout of it when they did all the auctions for all the games. And then you just saw prices just skyrocket, you know, with the cryptocurrency guys jumping in there and just buying everything in sight. I mean, it's insane. Those prices were absolutely ridiculous. We can roll into that because I wrote crazy auction prices. I know that was, who was it? It's something like Captain's Auction. Yeah, they sold everything. And I know that was it was almost like a spectacle, just something to watch because they had so many games that they sold. It's not like they were in pristine condition. And it was almost just like, let's see what happens here. And every single game sold for thousands of dollars more than it's worth in Pinside or most collectors minds. But now all of a sudden those prices have kind of set a standard of like, holy cow. It kind of comes back to, Travis, what you're saying. There's new people coming in the market all the time, and it's a new game for them. So they're seeing Back to the Future, Back to the Future pinball. I love Back to the Future. And they're paying, what was it, like $9,000 or something for Back to the Future when that's like a $3,000 game? It was a weird thing, too, because I remember there was an IGN article out about this just last month. It kind of flew under the radar. or I don't know if any other podcast even talked about it or not, but it's basically a guy named Jim Blasco that's like a cryptocurrency guy, and apparently he bought 35 or 40 machines at the Pinball Museum, including I think it was like, according to the article, an $8,000 Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles. And I think that they're talking about that. The Daily East, yeah. Yeah, yeah, exactly. So it's like when we talk about FU money, it also can be dumb money sometimes. In this case, yeah, it's crazy. I mean, just seeing where the prices went and seeing what went for what, there was a lot of surprises there. I mean, even, for instance, the Guardians of the Galaxy LE, I could have swore I saw that went for like $12,000 or something like that, and that was one of the worst LEs to come out in recent memory. And the crazy part is that's not even the final price. I mean, that's the hammer price. taxes and auction fees and shipping. Yep. So, yeah, Back to the Future went for $14,000. $14,000, yeah. It's crazy.
    85:57
    But we all were saying, we're like, we just hope that's an outlier. We hope that is, you know, just a unique event, one-off thing. And it was advertised. I think they said it was, like, advertised on Good Morning America. It was advertised in, like, the New York Times. I mean there was a lot of promotion to get these outside eyes in on that auction to actually see and bid on these games But I mean it kind of segues into just pinball prices in general The pinball prices, I think it's crazy at the beginning of COVID, when the whole world is shutting down, I remember thinking, like, I have thousands of dollars in these toys sitting in my, you know, it's a box of lights in my basement. You know, should I be worried about my job? Should I be worried about, you know, like, is it silly to have these? Is this the time to unload them? Are these toys going to be worth, you know, half of what they're worth right now? Like, I remember having all those thoughts. And here we are, fast forward a year and a half, two years, and it's the exact opposite. Everything has gone up. And it's gone up in a dramatic way to the point where all new machines are going. I mean, I don't know. We've talked a lot about pinball prices. But, Tom, what do you think? I mean, you take the lead here.
    87:14
    Crazy. I mean, that just sums it up right there. But, I mean, and I don't think it's going to get any better anytime soon, unless there's some catastrophic event that causes prices to go down like a recession or a depression. But I don't see prices going anywhere but up.
    87:40
    Yeah, and we've said this before. It's nice. I feel bad for the people getting into the hobby because at least the people that are currently in the hobby, that currently have machines, you have the ability to trade. And you have, like, the value of your game has gone up, so you might be able to trade it for something similar without losing too much. I don't know. At least you feel like you have, like, the demand is so high, though, that having a game is better than not. Like, it's so hard to get a game. Travis has his finger in the air. He wants to say something. I would argue that the reason why prices are being pumped up is because of first-time buyers. I would argue that. And here's a big reason why. What a lot of people don't realize when it comes to the pinball museum or museum of pinball auctions, right, there was a lot of reports of people, this being their first game they ever got. And the reason how those reports came out, people that are delivering the machines, they're finding out pretty much that these people never had a pinball machine before. And so what happened was this particular auction got so much traction nationwide that it got so many eyeballs that now all of a sudden people are just buying, buying, buying. And so that's one thing to consider, that when you get somebody new in the hobby, and this is what I alluded to earlier, one, they don't know the pricing in general. They only know the pricing as of today. And two, they only know the themes as of today. So a Metallica will be just as new as a Godzilla to them if you're brand new and you're just seeing these pins for the first time. And when you know that you've got to have it, you're going to shell out. You know, they're not thinking of, well, you know, Joe Blow thinks that the pinball machine prices should be like it was three or four years ago. You know, they don't care. They're not on pin side. They're not on tilt forms. They're not on Facebook groups. They don't consume content. You know, there are people that are just now discovering pinball again that's just like, I got to have this one machine. This is what speaks to me. And I got some money in the bank. I'm willing to pay for it. You know, I think I truly believe that that's a big reason that we're seeing these prices push up higher, especially when we're looking at the third-party markets. Good point. And here we go. We can feel bad for all the distributors out there because there's a huge demand and they don't even have anything to sell.
    90:06
    Everything's sold out. so um client demand yeah t's and p's thoughts and prayers for you know zach and nicole many are flipping out for uh not having anything to sell yep yes i feel so bad for all the companies they keep selling out of all their products just over and over again it's hard to make money you know must be tough yeah um nothing but love guys yeah yeah but i get it i it's it's a weird It's, I don't know, it's just odd. And I know as a buyer, you know, I haven't really been in the market for a new pin, but now all of a sudden there's this weird, like, anxiety or pressure behind it because it's like new pins coming out. You either, I mean, there are people that day one put money in on Godzilla and they don't have them yet, you know, delays. Or Mando, it took months and months and months. So it's like you feel like you almost have to make a decision before the game is revealed, like do I want to buy this game? Or almost immediately, day one, day two, I need to buy this game now. or I may not get it in the first run. And if you don't get it in the first run, you're going to be, you know, Godzilla. I think they said, like, the next run of Godzilla Pros is, like, April or something. I mean, it's just, like, it is crazy the delay that you're going to be in. So all these people before had the idea of I'm never going to buy a pen unless I can play it. Well, that's not possible. I mean, unless you are planning on waiting a year and a half or two years to actually finally buy it. The used market, things go higher than they are brand new. You know what that's going to end up doing, right? What? Well, because that's happening, that means that all the themes that are a little bit older, two to four years older, that CERN is still running, their final runs are coming up. Yeah. And guess what? That's going to create a feeding frenzy. You better believe Beatles, the value of Beatles is going to go up. The value of Batman 66, it's going to absolutely skyrocket. I mean, they're coming up with their last premium run. And then when that's all said and done, I mean, these are themes that really resonate with people. And when it's not going to be around anymore, no more new in boxes, you're going to see prices really start to go up. And, I mean, we're seeing that, too, with some of the older games from Stern from the early 2000s, like Sopranos. Prime example, you could get a Sopranos for $3,500, $4,000 about a year and a half ago. Now you'd be lucky. If you find one for under $7,000, you need to gobble it up ASAP. Because there's a lot of them are going for 7,000 plus now. It's a weird, if I was in a position to sell, I mean, Tom, you sold your Medieval Madness and your TNA. When you posted them, how quickly did you get offers? Pretty much immediately. I mean, like, yeah. And you posted them high, right? Like, I think you posted them thinking, I don't know if I'll get this, but I'm going to post it at this. And immediately. I mean, that's just, I don't know. if I had a Stern Pro, if I had, let's say, Stranger Things, if I had a Stranger Things that I was like, I think I'll sell it, I don't know if it makes sense to sell it now or wait until the new year when officially all the Stern prices are higher. Either way, you're going to sell it. You're going to have no problem selling. Whatever you have, if you have a pinball machine, I don't think you're going to have problems selling it, period, unless it's an EM.
    93:26
    Even though it's probably going to go pretty quick. Yeah. Yeah, which is good. I mean, it's the same thing with, like, the housing market, same thing with the car market, right? Right. Yeah. Well, I think, too, moving on to the future, I think the last thing to go for a lot of people, because people talk about the economy taking a downturn and then how will that affect pinball sales. But honestly, I think throughout this pandemic, more people have realized that they want entertainment at home. Like, we've gotten used to on-demand, HBO Max. Like, if the movie is releasing in theater that day, We can set our happy asses on the couch and we can watch it with our family. And it's just as fun, you know. And so something like this, I truly do believe that regardless of what happens with the economy in the future, I think a lot of people are taking the approach that they are wanting at home entertainment. And when you look at the target demographic for pinball, for a luxury item, it is going to be older people. It is going to be people that are 50 plus. And I don't know about you guys, but I rarely see, you know, too many mid-50s to 60s coming in to the pinball arcades and hanging out. I mean, they're around, but when we're talking about multimillionaires that are retired, they're still going to want to get games at home. They're still going to fill out. It's funny that you mention that because there's a guy on Facebook that I subscribe to. He's a local distributor, and he sells games, he repairs games, and he also sells arcades and whatnot. And to be honest, the majority of – he takes a lot of pictures with people giving a thumbs up next to the game that they just bought. It's an older demographic. It is definitely an older demographic of people buying these games. Not saying that – like, there are plenty of young people, but I think that – maybe that's where you're seeing the growth. That's the growth you're talking about or demand. But it's crazy.
    95:20
    Pinball price, I mean, this is a ride we're stuck on, and we're going to have to see where it goes. Do you think if manufacturing catches up, like more product is put out, that the prices will stagnate? I don't think there's any reason. If I was a pinball manufacturer, I don't think there's any reason to decrease the price of your games. No, I don't think decrease, but like a level off. The only thing I could see leveling off is the fact that, like, a Mando right now, you could sell a Mando used for more than a brand-new Mando. But if the games on the line caught up, same with Godzilla. You can sell any Godzilla used higher than a brand-new one because nobody wants to wait. But if they caught up, maybe those would even out. Yeah. But is Sopranos still going to be $7,000? Maybe. If they vaulted Sopranos, that sucker would sell. I mean, it would sell a lot. What is with your Sopranos kick?
    96:23
    No, it's not my kick. That's what everybody's been buying. I mean, so here's the thing to consider. So I analyzed this, and I was figuring this out. Why is this happening? Why is some titles that come out years ago, why do they end up getting popular at certain times, and the price and the value goes up? And I think a large reason for that is when you look at where people's ages are at and when they're more apt to get disposable income, it's right around your late 30s, your early 40s. And when you look at the sweet spot of when some of these themes and some of these different pens came out, some of us were younger then. I mean, when Sopranos came out, I think I might have been 19 or 20 when the pinball machine came out. Now I'm in my late 30s now. So I watched the show completely start to finish, and now I'm like, oh, I'd like a Sopranos pinball machine. because I binge-watched it. You get to see it. And I think there's a lot of people out there that are rediscovering some of these themes that otherwise that they didn't know existed, they forgot about, they have a new appreciation for, and they have the disposable income for. And there's definitely metrics out there that you could see that some of these themes, they just get more popular over time. I mean, look at, so Deadpool, prime example of that. When it first came out, it's kind of like lukewarm. Yeah, it's cool. Artwork's cool and all this and that. But then everybody just, yeah, exactly. Everybody just fell in love with it. And then it became like unobtainium. You couldn't get one at all. And even now it's like, it's insanely difficult. And this is a pen that came out three years ago now, I believe. Yeah. When I look at my collection, I have a TNA. Freaking love the game. And there's still quite a demand for that. When those go for sale, they sell quick. Tom just sold one quick.
    98:09
    My Turtles. Turtles is the only game that I think I know I could sell it quick because you can sell any game quick right now. but it doesn't have the demand that some other games have. But Deadpool, I know, yeah, I am glad I worked out a deal with Zach at Flippin' Out, was able to sell my pro and get a premium from him that he got. I heard that he was getting one in on trade, and I am very glad that I feel like I invested in a good pin because I know the demand for that's only going up and probably only going to continue to go up. So, I don't, we've, yeah, what was it? We said we were going to do five minutes per topic. And, yeah, I know Pinball Price, we've talked a lot about it. There's a lot of people that have talked about it. But, yeah, there's nothing going to change. Just the review of it over 2021 was they've gone up. Everything is going up.
    99:04
    And it's great. Like, P3 hasn't really gone up. So now all of a sudden, P3 seems like a better deal. Or there's some of these other games that were sold, you know, like Halloween and Ultraman. Those were revealed before Godzilla. But now that Stern has set their new standard, it's kind of also opened the doors for whenever J.J.P. releases their next game. J.J.P., their game is probably going to be way more than Wonka. I mean, it's just, yeah. Well, their Legend of Valhalla, that's in the mid-sevens, isn't it? Yeah, it was more expensive than, well, no. I don't think they've ever announced a price for, didn't they say they were going to have a standard edition? And I don't think they ever announced it. They've only released the limited edition, which is sold out. I don't think they have released yet a price for the standard edition. I could be wrong. Oh, that's a company we haven't talked about. Freaking Cactus Canyon. Chicago Gaming. Oh, that company. Yeah, released Cactus Canyon. Cactus Canyon remake came out right at Expo. So, similar thing. So, LEs came out, sold out. I remember Zach Minney was supposed to be at the Clip It Out booth. They released the game that day. He was literally in his hotel room the entire day taking orders, sold out his entire allotment. They had the limited edition without all the bells and whistles. Then they had a standard edition, sold a ton of those. And then it was like a week later, they said, hey, everybody wants a topper, so we're going to make the SE Plus, standard edition plus, same price as the LE. But instead of all the bells and whistles, you get one whistle. You get just the topper. And I know we've talked about this. There's a lot of podcasts and other media people have talked about this, the SE Plus and how ridiculous it is.
    100:48
    But, yeah, Travis, you have played you both have played the remake, right? Yes. Yeah. So I don't I would say just anybody wants to wrap up 2001 Chicago Gaming thoughts. We'll start with Tom and then we'll let Travis fill in. All right, Tom, tell us your 2001 Chicago game. Wow, 2021. God.
    101:14
    It looks good on the show floor. It's a good-looking pin, yes. It is a good-looking pin. Travis, do you want to go off of that? Oh, no, go ahead, Tom. Well, I was going to say we might have to just consider it as a 2022 pin. Oh, because it's not out. They haven't shipped any. I haven't seen any. Good point.
    101:39
    Do you have one, Travis? No. No, I missed out on the SV with the copper, sadly. So what? I wonder what Twicky's, I wonder what they, like, it was revealed. Told you, there's no, like, it's literally just going to be Godzilla versus Halloween versus Ultraman versus Mando.
    101:59
    And it'll be Led Zeppelin. So is that it? Sorcerer's Apprentice versus Led Zeppelin, yeah. So it'll be Led Zeppelin, Mando, Godzilla. Legends of Valhalla, I guess. No, but unless they don't count. Why would you not count it? It's on location right now. Yeah, so because GN, Cactus Canyon remake hasn't been shipped. I mean, it'll be a small. Are there none out yet anywhere? Because I'll be honest, I have absolutely zero idea. I have zero idea with what's going on with Cactus Canyon. Like, I know I watched the reveal at Expo. That blew my mind. I just started to be even more confused watching that. And then I saw all of a sudden they're like, hey, all the LEs are sold out. And then I have a couple of distributors call me. They're like, oh, we haven't sold one LE yet. We haven't even announced it. I'm like, okay, so they're not sold out. So I'm even more confused. And then I see the SE with a topper announced all of a sudden. And then I see the topper wars start out. Yeah, exactly. I see, like, the elite elitists, like, talking to the SE people, and they're mad about the toppers, and I'm just over here, like, I'm so lost right now. But I will say, here's the one thing I did get wrong. I thought Cactus Canyon would be a tough sell for a lot of people earlier this year, the beginning of this year, and lo and behold, it just instantly everybody loved it. Yeah.
    103:28
    Yeah. Yeah, I mean, the game itself, I'll be honest. Like, for me, the game's boring. Like, the game is really boring to shoot. The rule set's boring. I hope that whatever Lyman and Josh are bringing out with the new rule set add-on, I hope that that's a lot of fun. I assume it will be. But just the game in general, it's just, like, even playing the LE, I played, literally I played a ball and a half. And then I just went over the Godzilla as soon as that was open. I mean, it's like, I mean, it's a pretty game. I mean, it shoots well, but at the end of the day, the theme just doesn't speak to me at all. And, I mean, if you're an above-average player, you will chew this game up within a couple of days. Like, you'll find the shots instantly. Yeah, exactly. I mean, there was even a couple of people that said at Expo, the first time they ever played it, they were basically to the end of the game by three balls. And that's, I mean, that's what it is. All the shots are wide open. Nothing's dangerous. You have really no reason to go horizontal, on purpose at least, at all. So it is what it is. Tom still bought one. So, Tom, yeah, your thoughts. I mean, you bought one. You don't have yours yet. No, I bought it on the thought of, you know, and it's kind of a risk, but, you know, I love Lyman Sheets games.
    104:53
    Oh, the new code. The new code. Yeah. I want to experience the new code. That's why I bought Cactus Canyon.
    105:02
    You didn't buy it for the topper? Yeah, there was a little bit of that. The gunman that just looks like he's swimming?
    105:09
    Yeah, the topper's freaking cool, but, yeah. But Lyman, yeah. I want to try that Lyman code, see what he does to that game.
    105:22
    Yeah, for sure. And Josh, too. Oh, yeah. We'll throw Josh in. Yeah, can't forget about old Josh. Yeah. So I think that's it then for, yeah. The only other things that I have on my list here was, unfortunately, it falls into the ending category. There were a few podcasts that were really good that have ended, officially ended.
    105:48
    Poor Man's Pinball Podcast. I don't think it's officially ended, but one of the guys left, so I know that changed.
    105:57
    But they do have the tribe pinball. Yeah, the tribe pinball. Yeah, so it's cool that the tribe is continuing. I met some of the guys at Expo. Very nice guys. Rachel is a woman. Well, yes. Yes. I'm glad. Thanks for pointing that out. No, I'm glad that the tribe is continuing. I met some of them at Expo. Speaking of continuing. You guys hear that Dennis Nordman? Oh, yeah. He was hired. I knew he was that.
    106:31
    Where was he at? Deep Root? But now he's somewhere else. Good friend that he can continue his career. Where do you think he's going to go to in 2023?
    106:42
    Probably back to Stern to release Elvira. 45th anniversary. All I know is Travis will probably tell us and then Tom will bring it up again. So other podcasts that end up, what is it, Pinball Players Podcast, they officially ended as well. So as somebody, I'm new to media. I still think I'm new. I started whatever last May, but it's fun. Making a podcast is a lot of fun. It is a lot of work, but I feel bad for the guys. I understand the burnout or I understand why they would leave, but as somebody who enjoys consuming that media, it sucks. It always sucks when good shows stop. What was one of the bigger ones that ended but kind of sort of came back? What, a super awesome pinball show technically ended this year. I think it was early this year, but yet they've still had a few episodes. So it's not consistent. But, yeah, I would say it has been interesting that there was, I feel like with COVID, there was just an abundance of podcasts. Like there were so many out consistently. And then now that things are opening back up and people are playing again, And the reality is a lot of the content is a lot more infrequent or it's a lot. They're just not happening.
    107:57
    So, yeah, I don't know what to say about that. I'm glad the three of us are chugging along. It's good. I know my personal podcast is. 11 episodes. We're crushing it right now. Yeah. Oh, my gosh. 11. That's like one more than 10, Tom. Well, the reality is the reason our podcast has continued is truly because of, you know, the number one segment in pinball, which is Tom Talks. So we're just going to roll right into Tom Talks.
    108:33
    All right, Tom. I don't have a prompt. Do you have a prompt, Travis? He always has a prompt. I always have a prompt. Okay. I always have a prompt for Tom. For Tom? For Tom. It's three letters, Travis. Thomas. Tom. Yeah. Okay. Go for it.
    108:53
    Oh, I don't have one today. Oh, okay. Well, okay. Hey, let's try something new. Tom, this is your time to shine. 2021, wrap it up, or if there's anything we haven't mentioned, anything at all, go ahead, Tom. The floor is yours. Just tell everybody how thankful you are for Joel and I. Click that pin the entire time you do it. I'm just going to say 2021, it was way better than 2020. All right. And that was Tom Talks.
    109:35
    All right. That was Tom Talks. Solid gold. Last one of the year. Solid gold. Last one of the year. Well, I don't know. We may have an episode. It all depends on when this next game comes out. It's probably a game that Tom's going to be really into, and he's going to want to tell us all about it. Oh, my God. I will never stop talking about Rush.
    109:56
    What if I told you Rush is not coming out, Tom? I would be pissed. What if I told you it's been delayed, Tom? That would be okay. What if I told you Stern lost the license and Deep Root bought it? They can't buy anything at this point. Yeah. Or you'd be shocked. Robert could figure out how to buy everything, I think, apparently. I would, too. All right.
    110:21
    Well, I think that's it. I think that's it for our 2021 review. If there's anything that we forgot, feel free to e-mail us at tripledrain at gmail.com. I will say we did receive a lot of e-mails, multiple e-mails about our music discussion. I know a few other podcasts mentioned our music discussion. Apparently, that was a hit.
    110:41
    That was all Tom's idea. Tom is bowing to himself. Well done, Tom. It was a good conversation, and we should definitely bring up some of those.
    110:50
    There were a few, yeah, a few people had some ideas of, what do you think about this? Travis is playing with his pickle right now. He has, like, a dog toy pickle that he's playing with, which is, yeah, good for you, man. Deal with it. It says deal with it. Yeah, that's not Travis saying deal incorrectly. That's the joke. Deal with it. Yeah, yeah. Yep.
    111:13
    One thing that was cool was one of the guys that emailed us was from Belgium. So I think it's pretty neat that I just, it always surprises me that people listen to this, the three of us idiots talk for Around the World. Pretty cool. And there were other Rush fans. Yeah. All six of them. Yeah.
    111:30
    Well, that's it. Anything else out of you two? I got nothing to plug. Just safe holidays to everybody. Safe Happy New Year. if we don't see you before then or talk to you before then. Tom, I hope you get your rush. And Joel, I got nothing. That's fine. Yep.
    111:51
    Joel Engelberg, just another pinball podcast, just another pinball stream. I haven't done a podcast in a while. Hopefully soon. Stream is typically every Wednesday. I haven't done that in a few weeks because the basement is almost done. Carpet is going in like in a week. So hopefully I'll get back to my normal schedule soon. But the Flippin' Out stream every other Thursday, so check me out there. that's it for me and Travis you forgot to plug this podcast the triple drain podcast you guys please listen to triple drain podcast the best pinball podcast out there on TPN with three hosts that shows up every two weeks 100% two and a half I don't want to know who the half host is I'm the half Tom Tom, you're like the two, Tom.
    112:39
    Everybody's like, hey, you know, whenever they see me at events or tournaments, they're like, hey, you're the guy that knows Tom, right? And I'm like, yeah, yeah. Yeah, no, it's Neil's dad. Yeah, they say, hey, you know Tom. Do you know where he is so we can find Neil? Yeah. No joke. So at one of the events, somebody came up to me and they were like, hey. And I said, yeah, hey, how you doing? and he said, I love you guys on the podcast, but you know what's the best on there? I'm like, what? He said, Tom Talks. That guy needs his own podcast, just Tom Talks podcast.
    113:16
    And I looked right at him, and I turned around, and I walked away. Wonderful. Totally made up. Well, yeah. It's true, except for the walking away part. You just scared him? I know the listeners listening right now, I forget their name, but I appreciate you for listening and making it through to the end of the episode to Tom Talks. Yeah, yeah, for sure. And if anybody needs a last-minute Christmas idea, Silver Ball Swag, feel free to get a Triple Drain merch. Tom, feel free to plug.
    113:50
    We didn't give you a chance to plug. Plug away. Plug, plug, plug. I'm part of this podcast. you can email us at tripledrink at gmail.com and also Fox City's Pinball perfect well done so yeah 2021 maybe we'll get another one in before the end of the year otherwise 2022 we'll have to see what happens then and maybe we'll finally figure out where Dennis Norman ends up so yeah should be good that would be the best plug in the history of pinball podcast. Thank you very much. He just says, I'm a part of this podcast. Yeah, let's plug away. Tom, your turn. I'm a part of this. Nobody ever says they're a part of the podcast. Well, that's not obvious, but thanks for pointing it out. Yeah. Yeah, so until next time, Travis, Travis, hopefully, that's what, Travely, Travis, hopefully you can learn some new words. Or like Dalton calls me, was it Turvis? Turvis Murphy or something like that. Yeah, yeah, thank you, Dalton, for that. All right, well. And always do a tap pass. Tap pass. Dalton's in there. There you go.
    114:58
    All right, Tom. Yeah, Tom, close this out. You got the last words. Let's get the hell out of here.