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Triple Drain Pinball Podcast Ep 48: We Played JAWS And It Blue

Triple Drain Pinball Podcast·podcast_episode·1h 35m·analyzed·Feb 3, 2024
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claude-haiku-4-5-20251001 · $0.033

TL;DR

State tournaments, Jaws gameplay review, and philosophy on pinball design criticism.

Summary

Triple Drain Podcast Episode 48 features hosts Joel, Travis, and Tom discussing their recent state tournament experiences, with Travis winning Oklahoma State despite food poisoning. The episode pivots to hands-on gameplay and review of Stern's Jaws pinball, addressing previous community backlash about the shark not eating the ball mechanic. Hosts clarify their design criticism philosophy and emphasize different player perspectives (tournament vs. casual) are valid.

Key Claims

  • Travis won Oklahoma State championship despite suffering from food poisoning during the tournament

    high confidence · Travis describes getting food poisoning in the third round while playing Creature from the Black Lagoon, having to leave the tournament area for 6-8 hours, but still winning the event and making it to Nationals.

  • Joel consistently gets new Stern releases 24 hours before Travis due to proximity to Zach/Nicole at Flippin' Out in Chicago

    high confidence · Joel explains his advantage in receiving and streaming Jaws immediately after it dropped Wednesday afternoon, forcing Travis to watch his stream for game content before getting his own copy.

  • Jaws does not feature a functional shark ball-eating mechanic despite community expectations

    high confidence · Joel confirms multiple times that despite adding various upgrades (hole upgrade, upgraded speakers, light kit), 'the ball still does not go in the mouth of the shark' on Jaws.

  • Steven Bowden won Wisconsin State championship after defeating Neil McCrae in semifinals

    high confidence · Tom describes watching Neil advance to semifinals but lose to Steven Bowden, who ultimately won the tournament. Neil was up 2-0 in games before Steven made a comeback.

  • Travis is retiring from Oklahoma State tournament play and will compete in Missouri or Illinois instead

    high confidence · Travis states he will 'no longer play in Oklahoma' and 'will be doing Missouri or Illinois from now on' due to travel logistics, comparing his move to Tim Sexton's previous retirement from Oklahoma State.

Notable Quotes

  • “What I've found that brings me true joy in life, true joy, is I understand I'm in a very awesome situation where I work with Zach and Nicole at Flippin' Out. They lend me games and I get to stream them.”

    Joel @ ~06:30 — Explains Joel's early access advantage for new releases and establishes the dynamic of Travis being forced to watch Joel's streams for game content.

  • “I am doing the Tim Sexton. I am retiring from Oklahoma State.”

    Travis @ ~38:00 — Announces his decision to stop competing in Oklahoma State tournaments and switch to Missouri or Illinois, marking a significant change in his competitive circuit.

  • “My jaw just fell like you know the cartoons where you know you see the jaw on the floor and i was just like shit i'm in danger”

    Tom @ ~32:00 — Describes his shock when facing Cassidy ('the assassin') at state tournament after she scored 8 million points on a single ball of Pinball after he had scored 5 million on two balls.

  • “This wouldn't have happened if Gary Stern was there. Because Gary Stern would have come in and been like, no, that thing has to eat a ball.”

    Community opinion discussed by hosts @ ~54:00 — Reflects broader community narrative about Gary Stern's leadership style and decision-making versus current Stern management regarding the Jaws ball-eating mechanic.

  • “If you're a casual, you basically are not listening to this podcast. Like if you're taking in pinball content, you are not a casual.”

    Joel @ ~68:00 — Clarifies the hosts' use of 'casual player' terminology, explaining that anyone consuming pinball content is inherently engaged rather than casual, addressing listener confusion about potential negative connotation.

  • “My shit stinks. And we just talked about that just the other day. You know what I mean?”

    Tom @ ~64:00 — Emphasizes the hosts' self-awareness and humility despite being experienced players, establishing their philosophy of not viewing themselves as superior to other community members.

  • “You can't please everybody either you give an opinion guess what somebody agrees somebody disagrees and then somebody else is Monica that's just how life is”

Entities

TravispersonJoelpersonTompersonZachpersonNicolepersonSteven BowdenpersonNeil McCraeperson

Signals

  • ?

    business_signal: Distribution geography creates content creation advantage for Chicago-area streamers; Joel receives Stern releases ~24 hours before non-local competitors due to Flippin' Out proximity

    high · Joel describes Jaws arriving Wednesday afternoon due to proximity to Zach at Flippin' Out, forcing Travis to watch his stream for content before getting his own copy, happening with Venom, Fighters, and previous releases.

  • ?

    community_signal: Jaws ball-eating mechanic criticism generated significant community feedback—both positive (agreeing with hosts' design critique) and negative (perceiving hosts as elitist/dismissive of casual players)

    high · Hosts describe receiving feedback from listeners both praising their 'hard stance' on the issue and criticizing them for negativity, requiring clarification that different player perspectives are valid and not hierarchical.

  • ?

    competitive_signal: Wisconsin State tournament demonstrates competitive depth with strong players like Cassidy ('the assassin') and emerging talent; Luke Nahorniak (ranked high) eliminated early

    high · Tom describes tough bracket including Cassidy who scored 8M on single ball of Pinball, Sheldon who defeated #1 seed Luke Nahorniak, and Steven Bowden who won tournament.

  • ?

    competitive_signal: Travis retiring from Oklahoma State tournament circuit to compete in Missouri/Illinois due to travel logistics, following precedent of Tim Sexton

    high · Travis announces he will stop qualifying in Oklahoma and move to Missouri/Illinois states, citing inability to play enough tournaments in Oklahoma to maintain eligibility. References Tim Sexton's previous retirement from Oklahoma State.

  • ?

Transcript

groq_whisper · $0.287

0:00
the pinball network is online launching triple drain pinball podcast joel yeah where's your state championship plaque i don't have it i don't have one i do not have i don't have the state championship plaque but you do look josh even spelled it right this year good for him.
0:29
Tom, you look great. You look great. Good as always. I don't have a state championship plaque, Joel. Yeah, why is he not giving you a hard time? I don't get it. Because Tom's a freaking beauty. Look at that goatee. Fantastic. It's good. It's evil, Tom. I like it. Why does everybody keep calling me evil? Because I have a goatee. Hey, I called you an effing beauty, Tom. You're not evil at all. If Joel shaves his beard, is he evil Joel? Maybe if I shave it just to a goatee. I don't know. We got to finish this intro. My arms are starting to hurt. Oh, so he's going to hold this until we hit the button. Got it. Okay. Well, this is episode 40. Before his camera goes out. Yeah. This is episode 48. We're creeping up there to 50. And yeah, here we go. We.
1:13
We. We're three guys who like to talk and ball. So we came up with a cloud of our name. We're Joe and Travis, now we're talking ball. And we call on ourselves Triple Drain We're Triple Drain Travis, you're an idiot. The video during the song is the theme song video. You know what? If I want to get hyped up for my own podcast in the way that I want to get hyped up on a Friday morning before 10 a.m. You got to let me do that, Joel. He held up his plaque the whole time and danced with it, and no one's going to see it. It's because I've been working out, Joel. Tom saw it. That's all that matters. He's getting swole.
2:03
So swole. He's getting swole. Yeah. 12-ounce curls. It's awesome. All right. Well, here we are. We are recording on Friday the 2nd, the February 2nd.

Tom @ ~65:00 — Philosophical take on accepting diverse opinions in the community and acknowledging that criticism and disagreement are inevitable when expressing opinions publicly.

Cassidy
person
Austin Trentperson
Luke Nahorniakperson
Jawsgame
Flippin' Outcompany
Stern Pinballcompany
Penwoofercompany
Measel Modscompany
Danperson
Gary Sternperson
Monicaperson
Tim Sextonperson
Sheldonperson
Rachelperson

content_signal: Joel maintains collection of keychains from every Stern game he streams as visual memento of loaner games, representing documented content output and gaming history

medium · Joel mentions taking keychain from each game he's streamed to build collection showing games he's played, Tom suggests others do same to remember favorite games, establishing pattern of content creator tracking.

  • ?

    design_philosophy: Hosts clarify their design criticism emphasizes shot layout and playfield design over just mechanical features; different player perspectives (tournament vs. casual) have equal validity

    medium · Joel, Travis, and Tom spend extended segment explaining they focus on shot quality and layout complexity, but acknowledge casuals prioritize mechanical features. Tom emphasizes 'shit stinks' humility and rejection of superiority claims.

  • ?

    business_signal: Community speculation that Gary Stern's management would have mandated ball-eating mechanic on Jaws, contrasting with current Stern leadership decision to remove/exclude feature

    medium · Hosts reference community feedback claiming 'this wouldn't have happened if Gary Stern was there' and that he would have demanded the shark eat the ball, implying current management (Seth) made different cost/design decision.

  • ?

    product_strategy: Joel has enhanced Jaws with speaker light kit (Penwoofer + Measel Mods), synchronized LED animations, upgraded speakers, and hole modification despite ball-eating mechanic remaining non-functional

    high · Joel demonstrates Penwoofer speaker light kit with custom PCB, power supply, wave animations synchronized between speakers and backbox lighting; notes multiple upgrades made but shark still doesn't eat ball.

  • ?

    product_strategy: Penwoofer speaker light kit designed to integrate with Measel Mods lighting and expression light systems, allowing synchronized animations across multiple aftermarket components

    high · Joel explains Penwoofer's breakout boards/daughter boards allow data from speaker animations to be shared with undercab/backbox lighting systems, demonstrated with blue wave animation on speakers and backwall for Jaws.

  • ?

    competitive_signal: Tournament streaming facing technical challenges (camera outages, score display glitches, commentator unfamiliarity with games) impacting viewer experience of high-level play

    high · Joel describes watching Travis's state finals stream where player camera was out, score camera glitching every 10 seconds, commentator admitting unfamiliarity with Toy Story rules/shots; unable to determine who was winning.

  • ?

    competitive_signal: Travis wins Oklahoma State championship despite severe food poisoning during tournament, demonstrating competitive resilience

    high · Travis describes getting food poisoning during third round while playing Creature from the Black Lagoon, spending 6-8 hours away from play area, yet still winning the tournament and earning Nationals qualification.

    • 2:15
    Ooh, Joel. I know. I'm fired up right now. I don't mean to interrupt, but, well, yeah, actually I do. So there's a have you guys ever heard about the groundhog conspiracy? No, the groundhog conspiracy. No, that happened with I guess I can't remember if he was the governor at the time.
    2:35
    de Blasio de Blasio of New York. So this is a legit thing. He dropped a groundhog on Groundhog Day. It was like a whole thing. Like he was holding the groundhog. And then all of a sudden the thing like just went nuts. fell over the groundhog fell and then there was like this big cover-up to where nobody wanted to know what happened to the groundhog oh yeah and then it turned out unfortunately the groundhog was permanently injured afterwards well yeah it's like a whole thing so drop the groundhog so seriously this is like an internet meme you've never heard of this no so this is is that a uh like a like a suggest like hey don't drop the groundhog you know or is this yeah i mean i guess you could apply it to pinball a little bit but like 99 of the people won't care but just every time groundhog day that you said that it just clicked in my head this is like a full conspiracy you're gonna go down a rabbit hole if you look this up just look up like dropping a groundhog and it'll it'll pop up don't ever squeeze a groundhog hey um that's pretty specific why would you not squeeze a groundhog i mean don't squeeze most small animals or all the small What I will say, listeners, if you happen to be playing in a tournament with Travis and he really sucks on one ball, feel free to go up to him and just be like, hey, man, he really dropped the groundhog on that ball. Just throw that in there. It'll be perfect. Joel, I just looked it up. This is on the New York Post. This is a headline. Bill de Blasio speaks out about dropping Staten Island groundhog on the 10th anniversary of the scandal. This is a real thing. And it's freaking hilarious. I mean, I feel bad for the groundhog, obviously.
    4:21
    But all things considered, it's just freaking ludicrous. It is. I mean, it's like watching you play Jaws over and over again. Yeah, man. It's insane. So what I've found that brings me true joy in life, true joy, is I understand I'm in a very awesome situation where I work with Zach and Nicole at Flippin' Out. They lend me games. and I get to stream them. You're a lucky bastard. I know. I love it. And it's a ton of fun. But due to just proximity of Chicago, Zach usually gets games faster than Travis necessarily gets a game. And because of that, I typically get a game roughly 24 hours before Travis has an opportunity to open it. And the timing all aligned that this Jaws behind me, which dropped off Wednesday afternoon, and I was able to stream it a few hours later. And you know what? Travis had to do, he had to watch it. He had to watch it because he needed content to consume to understand the game, and he had to watch my stream. For the listeners, you just heard that, and this is why I'm so salty all the time because I have to go through this. It's like an endless loop, a feedback loop, that I have to do every single Stern release, every single time. There was another game that you had to watch. Venom. you just said it's a feedback loop venom and then guess what the one before that was uh fighters yeah i love it i love it so much you want to guess what the one was before that i don't know see i remember all this it's seared into my brain yes joel joel like gets these games so much tom that he's like yeah i don't remember that one because i have this one this is what i show right here it's like a spoiled brat this is what i will show right here so he's like one of those one of those instagram models that's like actually has the dad that's a multi-millionaire but they're taking selfies everywhere like look how well so this is what i've started to do and i don't know if zach knows that i do it but um i take one of the key chains i can't take one of the little key chains out of every game that i've streamed and i've started a little collection just to it's awesome do you have those all together yeah i have all together see there's now i'm salty yeah yeah but it's it's um he probably holds that up in front of the mirror it puts the lotion on and it does what it's told to be able to like i know there's a lot of people in this hobby that just rotate games in and out in and out in and out and i would suggest well no like i would suggest if i would suggest to start this because it's a cool like um just grab one of the keychains and just kind of it's a cool visual collection of like i remember that game i remember that game that was a fun game and um and then show you know show your kids show whoever like hey love these games which one did you enjoy the most what tom and i are getting out of this and what hopefully the listeners are getting out of this have a zac mini in your life and you too can have a hellacious keychain you can election from all pinball machines tom's keychain is would be bigger than this for sure of games he currently owns yeah he's oh great he's here it comes what does he got here what is oh tilt that's your oh he's plugging another distro wow solid oh my gosh oh man okay well apparently all three of us i didn't even put that on there yeah oh you didn't no that's good branding there like all three of us just wait that's true yeah i actually bought that from zach but uh actually i i took i took it to MGC and I think Rachel put that on there.
    8:15
    Rachel of Fox Cities that helps you out. Yes. From Wisconsin. So we are going to talk about... We'll finish with states. You held up your plaque. State tournaments happened.
    8:31
    I forgot. I wish... It feels like I need to talk to my family and be like, I need to block out time on the weekend of States every, cause there's so much good pinball to watch and to be able to jump between the different streams and see who's all doing what I will say. And I don't mean this to be rude, but I was watching Travis. I was watching Travis's stream cause he won, he won States and I was like, dang, he's made it to the final four. And when I turned it on,
    9:03
    this is, there was a moment where you and I don't remember the other guy's name is just two of you and you're playing Toy Story. And at the time, the player camera was out. The score camera was glitching, it would pop in about every for about a half a second, every 10 seconds. So I was watching high level tournament streaming. And all I could see is a play field. And you try to get a glimpse of a score and it's like i don't even know who's i don't know like i don't know i didn't know who player one verse player two was and the guy announcing i bet he's a great guy but he's super nice shout out to that guy but he's like i'm not gonna lie guys i don't know toy story at all i don't know what we're doing i think he's uh all a good shot that was basically the announcement that i heard so the whole time i'm like i am so clueless and yet all i want to know is if travis is winning you know i'm like he's like oh what's he trying to do he's trying to lock a ball dude it's multi-ball like he didn't he didn't know but that's fine or he's like i wonder what he's trying to do in this mode look at the ipad look at the screen it tells you what to do in the mode so what i will say is my takeaway and i see tom is raising his head his head tournament streaming's hard is that what you're gonna say tom i mean shout out to the people that do it well like really well yes having a mobile rig is not easy yeah yeah it was it was a it's one of those you don't know how good you have it till you don't have it because just trying i was like all i want to do i just want to watch well travis win this game right now and i literally can't watch it the takeaway is do not have me on your stream i am a human emp do not do it because the quickest way for shit to go sideways this would be a great time for travis's camera to go out right that would i did every precaution but yeah stay was rough this year i ended up getting uh and i was texting you guys during it and in the middle of the event it like food poisoning hit me hard yeah hard yeah it was during like the beginning of the third round i was in the middle of a creature from the uh black lagoon game and it just like hit me out of nowhere and i'm like what is going on my energy levels just went and i was to the bathroom and outside to the side of the building for like the next six to eight hours. It was rough. So I, yeah, so just thank your tournament streamer. If you're at a tournament, thank the person streaming it. And if you're watching the stream, donate, sub, bits, all that thing. Anything to keep the level, the high level. Yeah, anything that we can do to keep tournament streaming at a high level, it benefits everybody. But, Travis. Do you notice how Joel, I told Joel, I feel sick. I felt bad. I was coming back to you. I just wanted to finish the plug. He just like big leagued it. No, I was coming back. I was coming right back to you. Sub to your streamers. I should. I mean, it's more important. That's true. We care more about the high-level tournament streamers than we do about you. We do. Well, yeah. I mean, to be fair, we do need Toms in the world because we would not have entertainment and we would not be able to watch this. So, yes. I fully agree with that. So, back to Travis pooping his pants. What? Why do we got to go there? I just said I have poo poisoning. So, I was watching the stream and I didn't know this yet. And I see he's playing. Does he have a bathroom camera? No, no, no. He was playing Beatles. This was when all the cameras were working. He was playing Beatles. And then all of a sudden, he just, like, bent down. Like, he was playing. He held the ball up. Yeah. And he bent down. And I was like, what strategy is this? Like, what are you? It's called cramps. Yeah. I didn't know. I didn't know what's going on. So he finished his ball. He finished the game. I text him. I was like, why'd you bend down in Beatles? and you just responded back like food poisoning. I was like, oh, no. So my joke was, you know, shoot jackpot or poop pants. Those are two options. But, I mean, that's even more props to you, the fact that you were able to pull out a state tournament win with food poisoning,
    13:06
    literally fighting through all that. I mean, I saw Monica in the background. It was from the support, you know, from your family. Oh, yeah, clearly. Well, what's funny is, and I don't know how many people out there watch the stream, But if you watch the very end, we're on Fathom and I was playing Austin Trent, who is the one that was in finals with me. And you could even see me in the background, just kind of hunched over a table, just kind of standing or sitting there, just trying to figure out life and contemplate it. You know, because it's like I don't know if you two have had food poisoning before. Yeah, it is not fun. And so it's like I spent the whole time just saying, don't be that guy that does this on stream on the pinball machine. Don't be a pinball machine. Oh, my God. I already got memed enough in 2023. I cannot start out 2024 doing that. That's fair. That would be a new thing for you. You'd really drop the groundhog if you puked on the game. I'll tell you what.
    14:08
    Yeah. Yeah, man. Well, congrats. Congrats to your win. Thank you. So now I get to go visit Tom and go to Nationals up at D82. Yeah. Travis is going to stay with me, Joel. Oh, boy. Maybe we'll send you pictures. Maybe. I don't want that picture. Just make sure you have a spare toothbrush, Tom, because he always forgets to pack it. I have plenty. Oh, you're dentist. You're good.
    14:35
    If anybody has extra dental cleaning apparatus in your house, would be Tom Graham. Toothbrush for you, toothbrush for you. No, that's awesome. Well, cool. Congrats on that.
    14:47
    Other things we want to talk about. Tom, how did your steak go? I know he didn't win. I just didn't want to you know, you were the one looking like, where's my plaque? Where's your plaque? I just got to feed my ego. I just want to talk about my experiences. I'm fine with that. I just didn't know if I was bringing up a bad feeling or if it's a good feeling? I made it all the way to semis. For the field we had, I was very happy with that.
    15:18
    Okay. I love you to death. I cannot get over Joel saying I don't know if I'm going to bring up a good feeling or a bad feeling. I don't know. Can you imagine him having a discussion with his wife trying to figure shit out? This is where they touched me, Joel. no i get it i get it i think i mean you've joked around about there are certain tournaments that you just feel you're you're neil's chaperone essentially you've said that before then there's other tournaments you dominate and i just don't you know i'm just trying to be considerate so neil and i our plan was to meet in the finals okay okay and i had to get through my first match another tom tom schmidt um and so that i got through my first match and then i had to face cassidy who is who we call the assassin yes like so i was up three two on on cassidy and it was one of my picks which was pinball okay okay i put up five million points on pinball after two balls and cassidy had a bad first ball and i was like i got you assassin you're going down this girl put up eight million on one ball of pinball eight million and i was just like my jaw just fell like you know the cartoons where you know you see the jaw on the floor and i was just like shit i'm in danger that was that yeah luckily i made it past the seventh game okay all right then i played sheldon who knocked out the number one seed which was luke nahorniak so i mean it was it was a tough tough tournament and then i had to play jason wardrick in the semi-finals um by that time i was like exhausted because i didn't have a buy and i mean jason's a phenomenal player i just i i couldn't beat him yeah so but you'll do yeah so neil neil won his first two matches and then in the semis he faced steven bowden who oh wow okay who won the tournament so congratulations to steven bowden um but uh yeah neil neil was actually up two games to nothing and uh and steven came back so okay but uh it was uh there were a lot of good matches going on And I'm sorry I didn't stream it, but logistically, me driving my stuff down to Madison, it's just – it would have been a headache for me. So where was – was this at District 82 or where was this hosted? No, no. So, I mean, if it was at District 82, I definitely would have streamed it. It was at Nerd Haven in Madison. And it was a good location. games were set up a little lot easier than than you know would be at district 82 but that was fine i mean there's no issues with that but um yeah i mean it was a good location uh if you're in madison you should definitely check out the location yeah and i know what's always interesting with state is the people competing in the state tournaments may not actually live in that state it just it doesn't matter right the rules all it's all about how many wins or how many tournaments you've played in in that state so like i know madison or the wisconsin tournament is close enough that you'll have people from chicago or illinois or even i think like didn't los from from ohio participate in it one year or is like a thing where you get people or escher came from colorado i mean people can come from wherever carlo carlos didn't but but yeah escher did last year and won um okay but but it it's one of those things it's hard to explain to somebody not in competitive pinball um why like well you don't live in that state you know why why are you playing in that state and it has to do with basically the points you accumulate by playing in tournaments in that state i mean you know jace jason and and steven And they came to a lot of tournaments at District 82. They had the right to play. I mean, there's nothing wrong with that. See, all I hope is that Neil McCray wins state in some state in the U.S. at some point. That would be so great. Travis is officially done, though. He's officially done. No more. He will not. This is his last year being the Oklahoma state champion. Travis said he will no longer play in Oklahoma. Okay. Yep. I am doing the Tim Sexton. I am retiring from Oklahoma State. How did that work out for Tim? Yeah. All right. He made finals at Indus. Yeah. That's awesome.
    20:49
    So, yeah, I'm either going to do Missouri or Illinois from now on because it's basically like a seven and a half hour drive. And I'm not even going to be able to get down to Oklahoma very often enough to even qualify. anymore i don't think so yeah it just kind of works itself out well um tom you may not have won but you didn't poop your pants or puke on a machine so that is true i didn't do that either joel i went to the bathroom and i went on the outside of the building you went you pooped on the outside of the building no oh my god uh wow all right next segment next segment time to chill Time to shill. Check out these speakers. Check out those bad boys right there.
    21:34
    This is Penwoofer. Penwoofer, we've talked about Penwoofer before. Penwoofer, Dan at Penwoofer, they've always done speakers. That's been their thing. They've always done audio. But I know Dan has had enough issues, or he was having issues where his speakers weren't working with other speaker-like kits that were out there. There's a bunch of different people that make them. Everything is speaker-like kits, too. I think like Comet made some. I know Ninja Mods or something. Yeah, Ninja Mods are the ones I have in my games, and they're really good. And they're all great products. Like Speaker Light Kit, what I have here in Godzilla is that. I've tried a bunch of them, and they're all awesome. But Dan decided he wanted to make his own kit that he knew would work with his speakers. And they're really cool. So this kit comes with a – it's actually like an injected, molded kind of a foggy white ring. and then he has, they're actually, it's a PCB. It's like a, it's a perfectly made PCB. So it's not 3D printed or anything. The install was painless. His own power supply, he got a very, like he didn't just buy an off the shelf power supply. He actually got a power supply made specifically for this. So the branding, everything's really impressive. And so that's what these are. But what's really neat is he teamed up with Measel Mods. Measel Mods have been doing under cab and back box lighting for a long time. and that his kit works with their stuff. So here's actually, I haven't put the bottom in, but it's aluminum track, these LED bars. And then basically he has these like daughter boards or these breakout boards where whatever the graphic, whatever the signal is that you're sending to the animation you're spending to the speaker light kits, you can pull off of that information and then share it with the rest of it. So it may be somewhat hard to tell in the background, but there's actually kind of a wave animation that's going on on the speakers themselves. And then that same wave is going on on the back, my back wall as well, which is really cool. So I did blue for jaws just because it kind of makes like a kind of a watery back. And I haven't done the undercab yet, but I mean, what an incredibly easy install. And I don't, it's really cool. I'm really, really pumped with those. And now I want to see if I can find a way to tap off the information from the speaker light kit his flames to see if I can get that on my back wall Do they help eat the ball They do not. My jaw still does not eat the ball. You know, I did the hole. I upgraded the speakers in there. I've added the light kit. But the ball still does not go in the mouth of the shark. So, you know, maybe later. But just a real quick shout-out to that. I know you can see Measlemods.com will have all the additional lighting rails. And then if you go to PenWolfer.com, you can look at their light stuff. But they're affordable. And this is just a dynamic thing. So it's like you set the animation pattern with your remote while the – I know you're making faces. You're not – but he also has stuff that works with – his stuff will work with expression light kits as well. So if you have a Foo Fighters Led Zeppelin or Rush, then it would display all those animations. So kind of a new product. Definitely check it out.
    24:46
    But, yeah, it's been cool working with Dan, and I was really impressed with that install. So there is your shill. I was just enjoying, like, while you were talking, we got to see the back of your head. Yeah, see, I'm pointing. Look at that. Yeah, I'm not even pointing. I'm just looking behind me. All right, this podcast is just the best. It's fantastic. I have such a great time with you, Tom. Especially our audio listeners. This is awesome.
    25:08
    And, Joel, Joel, you're fine. Okay, so this is what I've added to make my draws look cool. but let's actually talk about jaws well no it's not my jaws it's my thank you zach and nicole for letting me borrow it i'm borrowing it yes um jaws let's talk about let's actually talk about jaws i don't remember did we mate joel checkmate i know good job tom yeah but did you see my keychain did you see that isn't that cool um so um did we record jaws wasn't officially announced last time we recorded right i mean yeah yeah it was so we've already done first it was post-in-disc well yeah we just kind of generally talked about it and then we talked about looney tunes and then because remember the whole thing was about the jolts eating the ball like yeah okay you were like you were going ham on it like tom and i had to be like joel no that's settled down joel okay yeah we got feedback we got feedback so we had some we had some people reach out and they in both good and bad. People were like, thank you for taking a hard stance on this. It's ridiculous that people are reacting this way. Cool. Then we had some other feedback where people were like, we really enjoy your podcast. And one thing we like about your podcast is the positivity and the fact that you guys were so hard and negative on this topic. Like you were negative about like what ball eating? What were we negative? What were you negative of? I was positive. Tom was positive. I was pretty fired up. What we were fired up about was just the overall negativity to a response like that. The fact that there were people that were like, the heck with what Keith thinks or Harrison thinks. Figure the mech out. You know, like, I don't know. It was just this almost like, why would they not try harder? Or what I love. Sounds like my old boss.
    26:58
    What I love was there were people online that were like, this wouldn't have happened if Gary Stern was there. Because Gary Stern would have come in and been like, no, that thing has to eat a ball. That's what they did in Jurassic Park. That's, you know, but Gary's not there anymore. Seth probably walked in and was like, hey, take it out, you know, save the money. It's like, what are you talking about? Like, I don't know. Well, it's like anything else. People have all kinds of different opinions. They're all valid, even if we don't agree with it. I think it's good that people can express their opinions. But, yes, definitely it's, yeah. And this I mean, you see it across any industry, though. Like, look what's happened to Suicide Squad right now. That's the newest video game that's out. It's just getting hammered by people just like dissing on it and everything. And it's like you truly we have an idea of what a game is going to be like just because like Tom and I, we've we've played enough. It's you see layouts, you see something that's similar to what you've done before. You have a general idea of how it's going to be. but at the end of the day, you can't truly form your like hands-on impression until you're hands-on. And that's just, that's just the reality of it. And I think all three of us have played it by now, right? Yes. But what I, what I want to go on. Okay, go ahead, Joel. No, what I wanted to say was, I will say there were some people that were offended because what I want to make it very clear that our opinions, we don't feel that our opinion is any better than yours. We're not – we all have very different experience, even the three of us, very different experience. Tom has been in this game a long time. He's played a lot of pinball. He's owned and collected a lot of games. Travis now works in the industry. He sees the business side of this. He's seeing all of that. I'm trying to give him credit for a lot of it. I see every different style of player, ranging from people that have been in the industry for like 30 years, ranging from somebody that just discovered pinball last week. Yes. Yeah. Well, and that's why we're doing the podcast. We're we're sharing our thoughts on things. And if if we can express our thoughts, why are we doing this? True. And but the one thing I wanted to point out was there was conversation of, you know, you two are tournament players and you guys look at you guys look at a game in a different light than I think others do. Just because it's in a different light doesn't mean it's a better light. We establish that. Then you're look, I just I just want to make that clear. Like we're, I don't want there to be feel like we view ourselves better, worse. I want to be clear. Tom's opinion of course is better than everybody else's. I mean, that's just the fact of life, but you know, like Joel, we talk about it all the time. Like, and that's one of the things I like about you, Joel, is that you realize your, your shit stinks. And we just talked about that just the other day. You know what I mean? It's like you hear us on this podcast and we're just giving each other crap and all that. But, yeah, of course, there's so many egos in the industry and there's so many egos everywhere at any point in life. You know what I mean? But it's important to be grounded. But you still got to have your opinions, you know, and you still got to have your beliefs. And that's I don't think I'm better than anybody else. And, you know, I don't want anybody to think I do. but personally yeah you can't always just throw off the handle because of somebody's opinion but you can't please everybody either you give an opinion guess what somebody agrees somebody disagrees and then somebody else is Monica that's just how life is so I think the main thing was one thing that we were kind of harping on is just what we were seeing in the initial reveal were the shots we weren't you know there was a lot of people that why is the shark not eating the ball? Or why lack of mechs or lack of this, lack of that? When we're like, can you just... What you were trying to point out was like, look at the shots, look at the shots, and maybe it's harder for certain people to notice that right off the bat of what the shots do or looking at the layout. It's 100%. It is harder for people to notice it. And that's not a bad thing. Not everybody out there is an elite player. Not everybody out there cares about combos or cares about how a shot is. most people out there that are casuals, they don't care about that. They care about what a mech does. So yeah, everything we said is perfectly valid and it's true. I mean, if everybody, if the only thing everybody cared about was mech. Can you explain the casual thing? Because I think some people are getting offended by that. Yeah. We're not trying to say it in a negative, it's not a negative connotation. No, this is easy. This is easy. If you're a casual, you basically are not listening to this podcast. Yeah. Like if you're taking in pinball content, you are not a casual. Because I'm sorry, a casual will just go, put in coins, play a couple of games, probably not even realize they have an extra ball, probably not even realize there's three balls, then they're done. If you consume content, you are as far from a casual as possible. Now you might be on the level of Joel with your playing abilities, and that's perfectly okay. That's not a big deal. Like there's going to be people of all kinds of different, I guess, different mindsets, different skill sets. And that's what pinball should be. And that's where these games aim to please. They have to appeal to as many different skill sets as possible. And just because you look at a pin and you don't understand the shots, it's not like that's not a big deal at all. Like it's you. It's something that you have to learn. It's like saying us, for instance, I enjoy playing chess, right? I play it every single day. I do puzzles. I do all that. Am I going to be the next Magnus Carlsen? No, not at all. Like I play literally on a thousand ELO level and that's it. And I've been playing for years. So that's just how it is. And so other people are going to see different situations or different aspects of a rule set or a layout. They're going to see it in a different way. and sometimes it could it doesn't mean it's a better way it could be a higher level way and i want the designers to be able to do that i want the people that do the software on this game to be able to do that because if they didn't imagine how boring pinball would be across the board with every single so that's that's just the reality of it and i've i have there's some local collectors i've been to their house this is before i really started streaming or anything just trying to meet people in the area. And one guy in particular, I was at his house and he's got this beautiful collection. Like he had 10 games, beautiful high end, all really nice games. And I remember I stepped up to, it was one of the JJP games at the time. And I was like, okay, so what do you do in the game? And he's like, I don't know. I mean, he was honest. He's like, I don't know. I just, I think it's a cool game. I was like, oh, do you know how to start multiple? He's like, I've done it before. I don't know what I did though. And this is a guy that's heavily invested in the hobby, all about it. I know he still is. He's active on Facebook still heavily, But he has no interest. Like he doesn't care to know about the rules of the game, how to play the game. He just doesn't care. I think to him what he enjoys about pinball is the mechanical side of it, the visual side of it, just getting whatever experience he is getting out of the game. And that's fine. That's what I'm saying. I just don't want any of our listeners to think that the three of us are at a higher level of pinball consumption than others. I mean, we just do it in a very different way. You and I, Joel, are fine. Yes, yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, if you're talking about consumption, my God, I got to do this like 50, 60 hours a week. So, yeah, it's – well, here's what it boils down to, though, Joel and Tom. Okay, the reality is, and it's like this for any industry, for any hobby, you're going to have people that are more involved than others. You're going to have people that have a much larger database to go off of. and it this was said a lot to me back during the days of like baseball and all that that there's a lot of people out there that have probably forgotten more than what we'll know and i believe that for pinball there's people in this pinball industry i'm not one of them but there's people in this pinball industry that have probably forgotten more pinball than what i will ever know and that's a good thing because those people are going to be the ones that are the leaders those The people that kept producing games, kept designing games, can think on a higher level, can push that barrier to get past it. To think of, for instance, like an XP system or how can this particular mech work this way and the shot combo work this particular way. And that's what excites me about pinball in general is you have people from different backgrounds that have different skill sets that design these games, that code these games. They're bringing people from all kinds of different ages. Now you got Elizabeth Gieske, who's a late 20s woman that's literally like super sharp, high end IQ when it comes to pinball. And it's clear that she's going to be the lead on a game at some point. So to me, something like that's exciting. The fact that Bug took over Spooky and they're getting out a good cadence of games. Who cares if one of us doesn't like the game or whatever? they're literally doing something consistent that a lot of people are responding positively to. Like that's stuff like that is exciting because that shows that pinball is going to be here for a long time. And pinball needs everybody. It needs the casuals. It needs the home collector. It needs a person that just cares about the mech and not a rule set. It needs a person that just collects an LE because the artwork looks fantastic and it just sits there and collects dust. Like, Because at least they're buying it. At least it's in their game room. At least it's moving a company forward in a positive direction with cash flow revenue. I mean, you could go on and on. There's so many different aspects to this industry than just simply just the world under glass. There's so many different other aspects to it. So what I would say, there's a question here that I want to ask you guys. But just what I will say is if you listened to our last episode and you were offended by it in any way, that was not our intention. We're not trying to talk down or feel like we're trying to talk down. That's not our goal. I feel like you're wanting to apologize, Joel. I feel like you're one step away from apologizing. I am saying we shared an opinion, and our goal, though, with that opinion is not to offend others. I will say I will personally stand by everything I said. And if somebody is offended by it, I'm sorry that happened. What I mean is – No, no, no. I'm not – what we shared, I'm not – Well, it's just one of those things. We all have our different opinions, right? And it's an opinion. It's not a fact. I'm not saying that. I'm saying he brought up the word casual. And that's the thing. When we say the word casual, we're not trying to say it in a derogatory way. And if you're listening to the episode and thinking, well, I'm a casual, are they talking down to me? We're not. That's not what I'm saying. I just want to make sure terminology. This industry cannot survive without casuals. And I'm telling you, if you listen to a podcast consistently, you're not a pinball casual. You are fully invested in this industry and you've gone down the rabbit hole to just pinball degeneracy. Like you're here. And I totally watched that word. But, yeah, you're here with us. Yeah, it's not. It's definitely not that. So here's the question. This was a post. Except for Joel. Joel's a casual. This was a post that was put on our TPN page on Pinside. And I just thought it was really well written. and asked, and actually Tony and Dennis at Eclectic Gamers Podcast actually mentioned this particular post and talked about it. So to the Triple Drain crew, the love of early 90s physical maximum moments may stem from the fact that the storytelling of the game came from sculpts and play field components interacting with the ball. Instead, we now have the LCD screen, licensed content, and RGB lights and animations to do the work. Designers then didn't have the technology to incorporate leveling systems into the rules or to immerse players with audio and video content. As more intellectual property and world building gets put onto the screen, the less reliant designers need to be on toys and 3D sculpts to create the feel of the environment. They can focus more on ball paths and geometry of the play fields than creating a world under glass. Maybe this is why some people say shots are the new mechs. The flow and combos lead to more things happening on the display. Destructum Jackpot, Foo Combatron, etc. However, then you get people saying the game feels empty because it's missing the unique set dressings they remember from the early 90s games. Busy artwork and flat plastics won't cut it for them. This is why there's such a crazy demand for mod makers, Stumbler, Wolf Cuffs, Swings, Measel Lore. People want their playfield to feel more lifelike and inspired. They want equal parts tactile and digital. Labyrinth hit the mark for a lot of people based on the theme and inclusive licensing, but it also captured attention for its use of additional LCD screen, pop-up characters, and use of physical sculpts to build the world. Given the choice, I think most would prefer their machines this way. Again, that's why the mod market is so hot. Still, technology is changing, and with it, the capability of the pen, thanks Spike 3, so more effort or bomb will be put into the intangibles such as rules, carryover, displays, etc. It will certainly push the hobby forward, and that's a good thing, but it's clear that most still want to retain what was differentiated pinball from video games this whole time, mechanical components, visual feedback of cause and effect. I did this thing when that happened. There's kinetic satisfaction. Oh, I did this thing, and then that happened. There's kinetic satisfaction, and then there's causation satisfaction. Pinball machines need equal parts of both. Godzilla had the building, tail whip magnet, and the bridge. Jurassic Park had moving and eating T-Rex, Jeep, Raptor pin. They were hits for a reason. Flow and fun as one. So I thought that was really well spoken. It was something I hadn't thought of was they are correct. The pins that people keep referencing back in the 90s, they couldn't communicate this crazy depth complex story with a DMD. So they tried to make sure everything was communicated with inserts or they were trying to show that with mechs. And I think that's what some people are accusing us of, that now we're at a point where because you can do essentially anything we want with an LCD, it's almost like we're focusing all of our time or our money or our effort there when some people are craving.
    41:47
    I don't know. I mean, like I know Brian Eddy, he loves his inserts. He loves communicating with inserts. That's what he still falls back on the 90s way of communicating or showing your progress through inserts. And the Stranger Things does that, shows everything, all the different modes. Venom does that.
    42:07
    Mando does that. You know, if you want to know where you're at, how far, how close are you to wizard mode, just with Mando, look down. You know, well, I've done five and I'm about to like that. I don't know. I mean, what are your thoughts with all that, with this idea of trying to find that balance of relying on a visual, like relying on the play field to communicate depth of a game versus an LCD screen?
    42:34
    Tom, do you want to answer that? Well, I mean, I've gone on record to say I think the LCD is overrated, personally. I really do. I think you can get across what you need to get across with the DMD. Sure, the LCD provides some stuff. But if you're actually playing the game, until you trap up, you're not seeing much there. And it goes beyond if you're trying to look at something real quick, it's because you're hitting a shot and you're looking up real quick before the ball gets back to you or something like that if you need to see progress. But, I mean, overall. I think the LCD is awesome. See, Tom loves the LCD. I like it way better than the DMD. Tell him why he's wrong, Tom. Tell him. Travis, you're wrong.
    43:19
    And that's all I'm going to say. Tom, you're wrong. Well, no, I just think it enhances the depth of the game because you can give more information on that screen than you can with just a regular, ordinary DMD. I agree to that. But what I would say back to that is, is how useful is that for somebody that's not getting the ball to stop consistently on their flippers? That's their problem. So, Tom, then explain. So like Pulp Fiction, Pulp Fiction has no screen, but yet there is a lot of depth there. And what I find comical is I've talked to a few people that feel like they almost beat Pulp Fiction, but that's because they don't. They're just looking, I think, at like characters. They don't realize how much more there is to the game because it's not, there's no screen to communicate it. But yet Travis is saying you don't need a screen. So how, how do you find that balance? Yeah. I mean, well, I mean, and you bring up a good point. I mean, Pulp Fiction's just a different game. I mean, it's, it's got the alpha numerics and those alpha numerics are helping you to understand what's going on in the game. but you know there is depth to the pulp fiction but it's not quite as it doesn't have the depth of say godzilla sure you know um and plus you can time out all the modes right i mean jeff teola said that a final round so that that whole game needs to be reworked yep scrap it start it over yep i'm going with jeff on that one i just don't know what value outside of the ball stopping right and then you're able to look up and take a breather i don't know what value just having video clips does like for me personally i get more excited seeing like a jackpot animation if it's combined with what's going on in the play field like somehow somebody can integrate the light show and the sound along with the video than I do seeing a movie asset or a show asset or something. There's definitely got to be a combination of stuff, but you know, I'll take, I'll take Iron Maiden, for example. Uh, I mean the, the LCD with the, the whole power features trying to get to cyborg. I mean, you need to know where you're at as far as your progress towards that to get the cyborg. So you have to eventually look up and say, I need this many shots to get to this. Well, maybe... How do you do that on Metallica?
    46:11
    The inserts? Well, that and if you're tracked up. Yeah, you can just go to info anyways. You're controlling. So basically we're just looking at... It comes down to a flow too because you can get the same information. Well, it comes down to presentation too. Right. Right. Presentation. Right. And the presentations there in order to get the information at a more efficient manner is really what it becomes. And then in order to give the information in an efficient manner, you also have to window dress it, which comes with the animations, with the UI, with everything. And so my whole thing is, I don't know, like from a design standpoint, that would almost seem like a nightmare trying to work around your code, work around your design, knowing that you have to have certain stops in the game for that, you know? Well, we've talked about this before. And I mean, of the three games behind me, Jaws, Godzilla, and Cactus Canyon, the display I like the most is Cactus Canyon. And part of that is just the art. I love the art style, the DMD. but I look at Cactus Canyon, there isn't anything in the game that the play field doesn't communicate to me. I mean, maybe it's like how many more beer shots do I need to get to that or where am I at with combos? And I assume there's an instant info. I don't know. I don't know if there's an easy way to achieve that. But what's interesting is talking to Josh about the Lyman code that they're working on for this. He said one of the biggest challenges they have is there's inserts on the play field.
    47:40
    Like he wishes they could add inserts or there were some inserts he wish he could have used for something else Like I don want it to say that I wish it would have Like so there limiting He was basically saying the power of an insert of what it could add. That's because they're updating a rule set to a game that's holding. Yeah, that's a little bit different what Tom and I were talking about, Joel. But I'm saying if an insert would have been blank and he could have put an RGB light behind it, then he can communicate more with that insert than just that. And, and, and I understand. Have a, have a kit and add lights. Yeah. Put it, put a board in the back. Yeah. And I think too, the LCD screens overall in pinball are done very well. It's not that they're done bad. They convey what you needed to convey. I mean, there's some things that get confusing for people, but just my whole thing is, is that unless you're very well aware of where you're at in the game, you have to know where to look on the LCD screen. If you're doing it, like, while the ball's in motion. And then you have to know exactly what that means pertaining to what's going on actively. So I know people that aren't deep in rule sets, they may not, that may not click as quickly. So I mean, that's, that's the only thing that I have with it. Like, I wonder how useful it is in situations like that, that you're not just standing off to the side and looking like if I watch Tom play, then yeah, it's cool seeing the LCD screen. Cause I get to actually look at it all and view it all and experience it all. And I'm going to see things that he's not going to see because he's focused on a ball in motion. So that's what I wondered that I just wonder if what would pinball be like if somebody out there took a chance and ignored the LCD, stuck to a DMD or did something similar to what you have behind you, Joel, with the Cactus Canyon look. And they were really able to focus more on what's going on underneath the glass in that form. Like maybe that might help. What if there was a mini LCD right in the middle of the apron? What if? There was a full like monitor type thing, like multi-morphic that goes across the whole play field. So I think when I had Bond 60th here, what I did enjoy, that monitor in the middle of the play field, there wasn't much on it. There was no video clips. There was nothing like that. It was literally like a blue screen with impact font. It was very basic, but it was also super helpful because you're in the middle of a mode and it's like three more shots for this. It communicated so clearly and you don't have to look up. So I see value there. And there are times even, you know, streaming Jaws the other night where it's like I do finally have a chance to trap up and I'm trying to look up, be like where, you know, do I have a mode progression? Anything showing that? No. Do I have the bounties? You know, bounties normally show what I have left in the upper left. But no, it's displaying an animation. So I know there's complexity there. But my question, and I know, Travis, you want to say something. My question is, I think people assume that we are taking money in the bomb. We are taking money and putting it towards display aspects when people would rather them take that money and put it towards another mech. So Foo Fighters behind you, would you prefer, Tom, would you prefer to have five less songs but there be another mech in the game? I don't know if that's even a realistic thing. I don't know if that's how the money works. Or if people think, well, this many hours of coding is this price in the bomb. Well, maybe if we do a little less, then we could put another mech in the game. I have no idea how that works, but I think there are people in this hobby that genuinely think that's how it works, that Stern is paying more money for Jaws 3 and 4 when they could have taken that money and put another sculpt or mech in the game. I'm trying to think of like a game with like just a crap load of toys in it. Well, Labyrinth was the example. Labyrinth has a lot of sculpts. I mean, there's the fiery heads. There's sculpts. Do they interact with the ball? They don't, but that's the experience though, right? Like that's the idea. Yeah, I mean, that stuff's cool. And I mean, it is cool for Labyrinth, but I'm talking more of like interacting like on the play field. Well, I will say I think Godzilla Premium has set the bar so high because you have the moving building, you have the rotating Mechagodzilla mech, you have a Mechagodzilla with a magnet in his belly, you have a moving bridge, and you have the Magna Grab. Like, those are four very utilized and innovative mechs that are all in the game. But I'll even argue like, okay, I own an LE, but I could own a pro, right? Godzilla? Yeah. Well, yeah. There's no man in a belly. There's no belly, you know? You're just getting a little horseshoe. But is that really needed? Like, do you really need that feature in the game? Do you really need a bridge that, like, opens and closes? Is that, like, the number one thing on that game? I think here is where it's an interesting crossroads to where you get different preferences to where you're either going to get people that prefer the shots and the nonstop, like just all gas, no brakes, or the people that want to see mechs do something. I think that's just the difference that we're seeing. And I like both. I do like both. I've had the pro and the premium here in my house. And I will tell you the premium has gotten way more plays by people outside of myself. And it's because of the mechs. It's because of the interactive toys. To them, you know, when my wife or daughter plays, all they care about is they just want to bang that building until they see it go down. That's all they want to do. And you don't get that experience in the pro. You don't get it. But I had a blast on the pro. but that's because we are trying to play the games and attack it from a code standpoint and a depth and a moment standpoint. And I, and I agree that, that it's a lot easier for a casual player, not derogatory, not in a derogatory way. It's cat. It's more, it's way easier for a casual player to try to experience a physical Mac on a game than to try to experience a code based moment in a game. So we're going to talk about jobs where, and maybe this is a transition. Well, that was it before you go. that was interesting thing about Jaws when you were pointing it out. What's one of the complaints about the LCD screen that people had about Jaws? Like what's the one, I guess the one scene that everybody was like, Oh, let's just keep showing up over and over and over again. It was like the, the chum thing or whatever. The chum bucket. Yeah. Right. To where they just show, but we've all played it. Right. Like how often do you even remember seeing that scene? Like hardly at all. You know what I mean? You see it, but I mean, are you playing it? Am I focused on it? Right. Are you like, holy shit, this is happening right now. We're seeing it again. Like, yeah. And going into Jaws, I really like how they use the LCD, though. I mean, there's a lot of information there. Like, even the skill shot, there's levels to the skill shot. I love how they have the text up there. Yeah. communicating what to do yes yeah because typically on games i don't know what the super skill shots are until they're discovered or you know certain certain things you have to hit for a skill shot um unless unless it's just like a top lane or something like that but you know the normal stuff but I like how they had, they have the text there to show you, Hey, this is what you want to hit. You want to hit the pop bumper. I don't want to hit the targets. Yeah. You know, anyone go through this lane, whatever it is. You know, I, I like that. I like that feature. And that's why I think the LCD is good. It's good for casuals. It's good. It is counterpoint, but you are correct. I will give you that. You are right. The thing that I like about Jaws, I've really paid attention to this, and I noticed it while playing and just trying to figure out my way around the game, that the play field actually does a really good job at letting you know what each shot is and what it means. If you really pay attention to the inserts and you pay attention to the text, it all really flows together very well. I mean, you can look at the billboards, you can look at the inserts, and you can look at the roll card with it. It all meshes.
    56:30
    Right, but it all meshes well together. What does the machete do, Travis? A field X, baby. But the only thing that I could see people getting hung up with and do not understand what's happening is maybe the fish finder because it accesses or activates on the right-hand side, but it does have an insert there that if I look at it, I think it, well, shit, it literally says activate fish finder. Yeah, that's the insert under the pop bumper. Yep. And then you shoot it straight across against the target. So that's the only thing that I could see people maybe kind of get confused about. I know I was watching Monica play it and she, that was something that didn't stand out to her, but she knew immediately, okay, I got to hit the captive ball, the light, the encounters. Then she saw everything light up. She's like, oh, I got to hit whatever insert because it has the name of the mode on there. So, or the encounter. So it's like stuff like that. You see people that may not think of rules too much, but they're able to kind of process what to do on this. And I think that'll happen. But make sure the game does play fast, though. And it is a little bit on the hard side. So make sure you do know what to do, like in terms of looking at this play field before you even start playing. That would be my recommendation. Let's talk about that. So this game showed up, brought it down, unpacked it. My initial impressions, initial impressions of seeing the game in person. First off, the art is fantastic. The blue, I'm really enjoying the blue. There's something, there's not a ton of blue in pinball. And at least on the pro, the art on the side, my kids thought it was awesome. It's a beautiful, it is a beautiful art package. It is a cool looking pin. I really enjoy that. The back glass, and maybe I'm just like, you look at my back. This is the Cactus Canyon. This is the Brian Allen. I love it. It's very complex. I love that art style. Even Zombie Eddie is known for complex art style. It is very simple. And I know it's iconic. It's, I don't know. I think the back glass, people are going to love it or hate it. That's really what it comes down to. The back glass is awesome. There's nothing about Jaws that is busy. It's true. Yeah. I mean, it's a cerebral like movie, right? You've got something that's lurking like in that, that poster. That is an iconic poster. I just think it stands out in a way. Like, I think that that backlash would in a collection of 20 pins. I think it would stand out because of how simple it is. Literally just the shark, the word jaws and the swimmer. That's it. That's all it is. But it's never. Well, it tells you everything you need to know about the theme. And that's what's important. If you can do something in the most simplistic way and get across what the theme is. That's why that movie poster exists in the way that it does. I mean, and anybody that looks at that, you could. Here's the thing. you could take the Jaws name away, right? Pretend that text isn't even there. And you see that photo. Yeah, you know. Yeah. A lot of people know exactly what it is. So here you go. Here's our, apparently we only shill, right? We only shill on this program, right? Hell yeah. That's all we do. Especially Sterns because Travis, you sell them and we just, we shill. Oh yeah. And all the money, all the money we make from the customer, from the manufacturer. So I'm going to say something negative. When I unboxed the game, my initial thought when I looked at the game is I thought it looked flat. And what I mean by that is it's just some of these games you get ramps all over top of each other, mechs all over interacting, weaving in and out. It's almost like there's a depth, like a height thing where it feels, you feel like that, the world under glass. You feel like it's just so much crap is between the play field and the glass. I opened this up, and it's a pro. So I was like, man, this pro just seems almost stripped or it was just flat. Like it just didn't seem like there was a ton in the game until I played it. And that's when I realized what is so unique about this layout is there's three ramps, but you really don't see the ramps. They're not you don't have that visual, you know, stainless steel ramp that that you that's right there in your face. You know, the right shot, the ramp is behind the behind the back panel. Like it's just like the left ramp on Godzilla. You don't see it at all. You barely see it. Right in the middle is a 180 ramp that's super short and tight. You don't see it. And then on the wave ramp, it's another 180 ramp. But where it's kind of hidden, you don't see it. So you're just you just you see so much play field. And that's where you realize this is the ocean. Water's flat. You're not playing a mountain. You're playing in the ocean. You're playing in the water. But yet, because you can see the ball, you can track it so well. and you just see this, I don't know, like it almost accentuates how impressive the actual ball path layout is. And so my initial impression, the last two games I had before this were Elton John, which is just jam-packed light visual overload. It's awesome. It's an incredible game. Then I had Elvira Red Kiss, like House of Horse. It was another thing. It had the Radcals. It had the Art Blades. It had everything in there, like another visual thing. You open this, no art blades you know it's a it's a you're back to a pro it was kind of like a huh i kind of got spoiled with those last two games of all the stuff that was in this game but then you start playing it and you're like holy cow this game is something else and that i was so maybe it was a unboxing it and being like huh kind of a kind of initial view but then once my brother same thing once we started playing, we were hooked. If you want to say that's a pun, go for it. But it's, we were, this game is brutal and it's fast and it fights back, but man, it has this draw, this one more game draw that I haven't felt in a while. I just wanted to keep playing it. So that's my initial, my initial take on it. Tom, you've played it. You've put a few games on it. You you're playing it on location. So you don't get to hear it three games. So you don't get to hear it like we do. Right. But your initial same thing. You've you've seen the unveil. You're in on an L.E. You plunge the ball. What was your main takeaways?
    62:37
    Pretty much exactly what you said, Joel. Just it's it's really fast. The shots are all there. They they it shoots great. But it's going to kick your teeth in a little bit. You know, I mean, it's it's it's a it's a tougher game. But fun as hell. I mean, just – I love that shark target that pops up.
    63:06
    The fin. Yeah, the fin. Sorry, the fin. And I saw somebody miss it, and then it like literally just like back to the other side and came back up. I thought that was really cool. So, yeah, I'm excited to get the LE and try that out. But I definitely want to go back and play some more. Okay. Travis, you were flaunting it on Facebook that you've played one game. And sure, your score was higher than mine. But your one game, same thing. I mean, what's your initial step up to it? So, yeah. So, I mean, of course, there is a lot of blue. And it's hilarious that you mentioned that, Joel, because somebody was texting me the other day and they said, you know what? I really don't like this game. I'm like, why do you not like it? And they're like, it's too much blue. And I was like, but it's an ocean theme. Yeah. I'm like, I'm like, so, yeah. So that was funny there. And I know he's listening. So, yeah, you gave me a good chuckle there. But no. So what I can say about this game and I played it more than once. That was just the only game I put up when I see my very first game. So I had to had to show off for you. I did have extra balls on them. So that's, it was not a three ball game, but I will say that this game, it like the best compliment I can give it is it seriously, it makes me feel like I'm playing pinball. You know what I mean? Like it, no, I don't mean, meaning like, meaning like I'm going to put in my quarters or I'm going to hit start and I'm lucky if I'm in control. Oh, And I'm playing by the seat of my pants. Things are happening, but yet it's not so many things at one time that it's confusing. It's like you know what's going on. You know generally what you need to execute, but you're always at risk. So you have risk-reward going on the entire time. For me, that feels like pinball. While I may find games that I have a repeatable shot that's safe that you do that, this game does not have that at all. I could not find the repeatable shot that was just completely safe. And it's, I mean, one of the coolest sequences in it is when you hit that quick shot, right? And it comes up and you know it's coming back down the left side. You know the fin's coming up and you know you got to basically hit it on a one time or hope for a ski jump. But my God, like my accuracy was just dog shit on it. But I was having a grand old time trying to do that. Let's talk about that left side. I'm honestly, when I saw the pictures on the pro, it, it's just, it's a, it's a straight path down the left side of the, of the thing. And part of me was like, I wonder why Keith, like Keith couldn't think of anything else to do with that. Like, it's just a straight path. Like it just seems, it just seemed like an at, like a kind of a throwaway kind of shot. And it's, and it may be one of my favorite shots. I'm telling you, Joel, it's probably, it's currently one of my top five shots in any pinball game I've ever played. Like I was blown away how fun just that shot is. It's hilarious. That's why it shows me that it's like I know nothing. Because looking at the pictures, looking at the reveal stream, looking at all that, I was like that shot looks lame. I just thought it looked lame. It was such a tight U-turn. So it's a left orbit. You want your orbit to be a fun shot. Not your orbit. It's where the left orbit is. That's the killer thing about this game. It doesn't have true orbits. Yeah. You want your spinner shot, though, to be like the satisfying shot because you just want to hear that. And first you can hit it from the little mini side flipper. No idea. Like physically, I don't understand how that shot works because it seems like it's a straight right to left. And then all of a sudden the ball is going right up the play field, does a hard U-turn and right back down. but the speed the speed of that shot because because it's a straight path on the play field the speed at which that ball is coming down to your left flipper is faster than any wire form or ramp you're going to hit and it's because the wire form or ramp will always drop the ball at the end so that's going to take away from the speed pause it for a tiny little bit and then just feed the flipper this is just straight barreling down at your flipper and keith uses that in the code Like you were saying, the quick shot, there's a whole thing where the fin will pop up. That ball is coming so fast, you're not going to stop it on the left. You can't do like a, I don't know, post, not post bat, but like a, where you hit it. A post trap. Yeah, you're not going to do that. You're not going to do a post trap with it. You might be able to do what he was saying, ski jump, hold with the left flipper, go to the right flipper. But what he's insinuating, what he wants you to do is hit stuff on the right. So if it's on the right flipper, you're not going to hit what you need to hit. So he's really forcing you to use that left flipper to hit that, the pop-up fin in a quick shot. This game forces you to use the entire play field. But yeah, that particular shot right there, because it's almost like it's so awesome because you get ready, right? You hold up your flipper, that mini flipper, as soon as it comes down, that unique area. So you might start a sequence to where you're on the left, the left flipper. You go around the reel and then you catch it with your mini flipper. And so you activate the quick shot. You hit it across. If you make that shot, it is super satisfying on its own, but it's almost like Billy Mays. Wait, there's more. Yeah, it's coming. And that's where, yeah, that's where the true fun all of a sudden comes because just like you said, you're gaining all that momentum, all that speed coming down to your left side or your left flipper again to where you got a one-time it off a shark fin target that's not in the same spot every single time. like that was that was the only time that i can remember to where i'm missing a shot and i'm missing it consistently and i'm laughing having a good time doing it i'm not cussing at it i'm not like oh my god this shot isn't doing what it's supposed to do it's like that right there that's what i'm saying it made me feel like i was playing pinball like i was a little kid again yeah joel probably thought it was like star wars episode one all over again he's probably so excited yeah you know shout out to keith because i messaged him in our group and i said keith this game's incredible and he his response was like does it compete with star wars episode one i'm stuck forever uh sharing my opinion on that one that one shot though i don't know how often you got to experience it tom but i will tell anybody out there if you're playing this game or you haven't played it yet like that shot is just fantastic it's just it's so satisfying when you actually do complete it. Yeah. And the fact that you can, yeah. I only hit it once or twice, but when I did, it was like, ooh. It feels good. Yeah. And the mini flipper is such a unique thing. Like that being able to, what I realized is the mini flipper being able to stop the ball, essentially lock the ball. That's the only controllable break that you get in the game. The only controllable way for you to breathe because the speed, You hit the center ramp and the speed that that ball comes back, you're not going to be able to post-trap the ball. You can't stop the ball.
    70:25
    Even the waveform feeds the mini-flipper. You can stop the ball there. But every other shot, it's just the return back to your flipper is at such a speed that it's just so hard to slow the game down and feel like you're in control. So that little mini-flipper is the only chance you have to be in control. But then what are your options there? You either flip that and the ball's going straight to the left. You're back out of control. Or you let the ball dribble down to your right flipper and you kind of have another shot. You have another chance. And I'm loving that. I'm loving that so much. Those shots to the left between the drop targets or the stand-ups on a pro, try to squeeze it through that kind of harpoon shot, the quick shot or whatever, or somehow how it magically goes up through that left orbit shot. But it really did not take long. It didn't take me to play this game long to realize how brilliant the actual layout of the game is. And I had a lot of people on stream. They're like, what are your thoughts? What are your thoughts of pro versus premium? I can tell you right now, I'm having a blast on the pro. I having a blast on the pro Now if I do the friends and family test if my wife came down here and she like okay what do I need to do in Jaws Is there something physically like a mech something that I can point out of like, you want to experience this? Not really. Like the chum bucket's kind of cool. The fin, the fin is probably the closest thing. There's a little bit that you have to do before that pops up for the first time. You have to create that shot. That's the tough part. You have to create that. You have to get that all set up to have to experience that. So probably not something she's going to experience. That's where I see the value in the premium, because if she was standing in front of the premium, I would be like, hit the ship. And then all of a sudden that shark pops up. She can bash the shark or try to get it on the upper play field. See if you can spin the wheel up there. You know, there's then there's more stuff that I could point to for for somebody like herself to experience, you know, a physical satisfaction of the game. but um but man if you are ready to just dive in and you know hit the chum bucket try to get your multi-ball set up it like jared and i we went into our stream with very little knowledge of the game and we had so much fun discovering that game and seeing how how much you can do in that game right at the beginning and kind of what path you want to go and the satisfaction we were getting from the shots like i am so excited to continue to stream this game and play the heck out of this game but it's it's gonna be a unique game because i know obviously one of the cons is going to be that it plays difficult it plays hard it's not like i'm telling you right now it's not an easy player for me that's the exciting part like i i feel like i i looked at monica last night i'm like this is the first time i feel like a game is truly fighting back in a long time and it feels like a challenge but yet it still feels like things are accessible that's the difference yeah you know what i mean it's kind of like some other games yeah they play hard and it doesn't necessarily feel like everything is accessible in this for some reason this game convinces you that you need to play on the fly and that you're going to hit the shots because it's like if you don't hit the shot you are getting punished do you do you think the shots are more accessible in this or jurassic park i think the shots are more accessible in this one i agree i think it is personally and i think they did something unique with the sound package too, because you hear the Jaws theme and everything. It's almost like it speeds you up in your play. I found myself doing them. Yeah. I'm like, why am I playing so fast? And then I realized, wait, I'm hearing the music. I'm going, it's almost, it kind of reminded me of like, yeah, like how Gorgar is, you know, to where like the music just keeps going up. You're like, oh, I got to play fast too. So yeah, it's, you know, and like I said, of course, you know, obviously I work for a company that sells the games, but I will say legitimately, I am so excited about the premium coming out. Like the pro is a lot of fun, but then I'm thinking to myself, wait, bash toy, upper play field with all new shots included that has three pathways. Like I, I don't know. I'm going to have a hard time not getting a premium for myself. I'm going to have a very, very hard time because I told myself no more pinball games this year. And I'm like, uh, well, I'm already going to break it. Second month. You got Jurassic park 30. If you got Godzilla and you have iron maiden, it's clear you and Keith line up with, with what you enjoy. And I, I will say that my question about which is, which shot is, or what game is more accessible. The reason I, I do feel like, I mean, you said this game feels like it's fighting back. So I do think it's a hard game, but it's not hard. I think people will like that it's shorter game times. Yes. Nothing in the game feels like a slog at all. It doesn't. It feels like you're constantly doing something, and it's fun doing it. And what I will say is what I mean by hard is it's not hard because you can't hit the shots or you're bricking a lot or like, man, I'm trying to do this, but I just can't hit that shot. No, that's not it at all. You're hitting the shot, but the way the shot is feeding back to your flipper is not safe. or it's going to force you to go on the fly and try to hit another shot and hit another shot. But when we were streaming, my brother, he had not touched the game. And he's worse of a player than me, and yet he was competing. His scores, he beat me in a few games. His scores were up there. He was experiencing the game. And it's like, okay, he's finding the shots, but it's still such an intense experience. While when we played Jurassic Park, I remember the first few times we streamed that, we were just getting our butts hit. They're like kicked in because our teeth kicked in, our butts kicked, all that stuff. Yeah, we it's like we couldn't hit this shot. We couldn't hit the O shot. We couldn't hit this. Like, we know what we need to do. We're just we just haven't found the shots yet. While this it's like I feel like we started to find the shots quickly, kind of like most people experiencing Godzilla. But yet I absolutely feel this game is not going to have anywhere near the ball times that a Godzilla has. Because they're accessible shots, but they're not safe shots. Joel, I'll tell you my ball times. I actually, somebody asked me this, this morning, as a matter of fact. So my very first game I played, I had the extra balls on. It was like around 16, 18 minutes, right? As soon as I took the extra balls off, we're talking eight to 10 minutes for a three ball game. And I had one game, which was like six minutes. And that's still around 100 million, 150 million. Sure. But yeah, it plays tough. But at the same time, it is accessible. Well, like I said, and the big reason for that is the encounters. They're on every major shot. So you can, as soon as you light them, you can start it. It's just like walking dead in that way. So unlike Godzilla, where you have to hit the scoop, right? Some people couldn't find that. Like the modes is what you're doing. Right, right, right, right. And some people couldn't find the scoop on Godzilla. Then it's like, what do you do then? You know, or like Jurassic Park. Some people couldn't find the control room shot. Like, what do you do then? So from a code standpoint, just for if anybody's going to if anybody this weekend has a chance to go and play a Jaws, what do you want to do? The two main things are you hit the chum bucket and you hit it one or two times. All the lights show up red and you hit enough red shots. You'll fill up the chum line and then that'll that'll allow you to then hit a yellow shot, which it'll be the middle ramp or the or the left orbit. You'll hit a yellow shot, and that's what's going to set you up for that chance to hit the fin, the pop-up fin. And once you do that, once you've attached a barrel, then you hit one more yellow shot, and you're in multiball. That's your multiball opportunity. If you want to just get into a mode, all you have to do in this game to get into a mode, you hit the boat one time. It'll flash shark, and then you'll notice every other shot on the play field has a white insert, and it says the mode name. So you can be in a mode in, I think it's two shots. It's just hit the boat once and then hit another major shot and you're in that mode. So it's very accessible. Is it that or completing the arrows? What arrows? I forget.
    78:42
    The complete arrow, like it says complete arrows for shark encounters. Well, what he means by what that is, in the boat itself, there are three arrows behind it. And they're like opto. But realistically, if you hit that boat straight on, there's a good chance the ball is going to roll over. and it's going to light your mode. And then don't forget, too, I think the bounty hunts can be lit via the right ramp. So you hit the right ramp twice, and that lights the bounty hunts. And if you've played something like Led Zeppelin before, that would kind of give you an idea. It's just basically four features that are out there, like ramps, pop bumpers, targets, spinners. Yeah, and then you qualify a shark, got to reel them in. Sometimes you can be like, Joel, lose the shark. It happens. So that's the whole thing, the bounty hunts. That's what I'm really enjoying, where I get into a bounty where you, it's exactly what he's saying. So it's like, okay, for me to catch this shark, I need to hit three ramps. I need to hit the chum bucket twice. I need to hit the pop bumper once. And I need to hit the whatever, the boat, whatever. It's like it'll tell you in the upper left, and you can just kind of chip away at it during the game. Once you've done that, then the reel, which is a horizontal spinner, it's a very fun shot. It's a cool 180 shot. You have to hit that and get a certain number of spins to reel in the shark. and then you hit the boat or the shark target and you caught the shark. And it's just, it is so enjoyable. That horizontal spinner and that 180, not the 180, the figure eight, I am blown away at how well that works because it consistently feeds below, around a pop bumper and feeds your mini flipper. And what's odd though, is if you hit the shot in a way that it feeds the opposite direction, then it's a dangerous shot because that ball is coming either right at your flipper or close to straight down the middle. So you got to be ready. Like it's, it's such a creative layout. And you got to make sure to nudge the machine the correct way. So you don't force the ball to go down. Carl D'Angelo shared a clip with me from my last stream where the ball was going to hit the left flipper and I nudged it the wrong way and just, it went straight down. Tom. Well, we got to ask Tom Joel. So Tom, you played this what three times on location. Did you get a fill for the shots or like what you were doing in the game? I found the outlines quite a bit. did you use the right outlay like to bump it back in that was funny i wanted to talk about that so yeah i was literally surprised because the ball was going down the right outlay and i was like oh man i lost the ball and then all of a sudden it bounced off the post back in yeah it's like okay let's go yeah uh but no i thought the shots were very findable strangely enough the uh the the boat or the shark shot, that captive ball, I had the most trouble trying to hit that. And I don't know if it was just my aim or what, but I kept hitting the left post rubber. So from the right flipper? Yeah, left flipper. Or from the left flipper? Left flipper. From the left flipper? Well, that's back to the unsafe thing. If you don't hit the captive ball, there's a lot of rubber post on both sides. And if you hit it, it's coming straight back at you. Even if you hit the captive ball, it's still – like I found that the chum bucket felt like the only safe shot.
    81:52
    Really, you know? And what I love – Besides the ramps and stuff. Yeah. The rescue multi-ball. So every time you hit a stand-up next to one of the main shots, it will add a beachgoer on a shot. And you have to do that. You have to add the beachgoer and collect the beachgoer. So what I've found really fun is I'm – My skill level, I mean, I'm hitting posts all the time. So the fact now that I have a little target there, that it's like you don't want to hit it because it's not safe. But the fact that you do have to hit them, though, to add your beachgoers. So I'll look down. It's like, man, I got so many beachgoers out there. Once I actually start hitting my shots, then like I have playing the game. I did it once on stream. I got to rescue multi-ball and I did it once the other night, which is a cool. It's a cumulative thing. It's something that you are going to progress over time. And then, hey, I'm only a few shots away from rescue multi-ball. When you start that multi-ball, you can close the beach, and then it kills your flippers. Kills your flippers, and it starts you in this multi-ball mode, and it's a unique thing.
    82:53
    The code's only at .83, .83, and that's what I've told some people on stream and some other people that have reached out. The things that aren't going to change, the art, I'm really enjoying the art. I think the art on the play field, it's not busy. It really lets you see the ball, and it looks great. The art's not changing, and the shots aren't changing. The shots are awesome. I'm loving the way this game shoots. The code that's already there, the .83, I'm having a blast with it already. And the fact that this is where I think Keith has proven himself that he's going to flesh out a game in such a unique way and make it a fun experience. Look at Jurassic Park. Look at Iron Maiden. Look at Godzilla. This game's only going to get better. So if you have one on order, I think you made a good choice. If you have an LE locked in like Tom, good on you. My view is buy with confidence. This game is a blast. This game is a blast and I'm really excited to see how it continues to grow. So it's awesome. Go find one. Hopefully you can, hopefully your local arcade has one at this point. Otherwise we'll share, we'll share Tom's address once he gets his LE.
    84:03
    No, no, we won't do that at all. I don't know. Any other, any other thoughts on Jaws? I mean, it's it will I'll admit like I've seen the movies and all that. I was not sure how this would translate for pinball. I was I mean, yeah, I was I was worried about how it would translate. But I mean, it works. It shockingly works. And I don't know. I don't know how they did it. Whoever did the artwork, was it Michael Bernard? Yep. They did it. I mean, it's I personally think it's fantastic because if you really look at it and you see what the art is, along with the inserts, along with labeling the shots, along with working its way all the way to the backside with the buildings on the back and everything. It just it all comes together nicely. And I like that it's not super busy. And that's not to say that other people like Brian Allen or Zombie Yeti that I don't like their artwork. It's just something like this. I think it's the perfect art package for what this theme is. Yeah, things don't need to be busy. It's a shark. It's an ocean. And I'm sure something like this wasn't necessarily the easiest thing for people in pinball to do because pinball is typically chaos. But what's beautiful about this theme is it's a simple premise that is chaotic and is terrifying. Being in the water with something that could just eat you alive is probably absolutely terrifying. So having a game like this, it's just curious to see how this would translate out. And I don't know, having a horror theme like this translate in this way that it still has even the good campiness in it that comes in. Like when the guy is talking about the tiger shot and he's like, oh, what? That's one of my favorite quotes in it. Yeah, there's just, I mean, the game's just excellent. I'm very shocked at how excellent everything seems like it's coming together. And I don't say that lightly. I'm just very surprised by it because I was not sure, based on the theme alone, how it would be. So a few quick thoughts. One, this is considered a horror movie. I was worried bringing this in. I was like, I got little kids. Is this a game? Unfortunately, Elvira, that was a game that I wasn't allowed to play around my kids, and it's not because of her. It was like what I found my three-year-old. He didn't like the floating heads. He thought the floating heads were scary. And there were other a few clips that were scary. So it's like, okay. It wasn't the satanic movie scenes. Yeah. It's like I need to. So that made sense. But I was worried. I was like, I don't want my kids. It wasn't the other assets? Yeah. No back glass? No? Okay. Three-year-old boy, he didn't care about that. He wasn't. Gotcha. But the thing about Jaws, I was really worried. I was like, I don't want my kids to all of a sudden be scared of water. you know or and they've they've included it's very tactfully done that's what i'm saying like clearly this is a game that's going to be at a bar and it's not let's say it's a family-friendly restaurant you know little timmy's not going to look up and see you know a half-eaten body on the screen like it's just it's very it's tactfully done and it's not yeah and it's enjoyable yeah you got to get to that point uh the other thing audio i really i was like cool they got the score. But I'm like, I don't want to hear for the two hours that I streamed the game. No, the audio package in this is incredibly well done. All the modes have different songs and they're all intense. They really, like I was super impressed with the audio. I really had a lot of fun and whoever, I don't know who's on, I think I'm assuming Jerry Thompson, is that his name? I think. I'm not sure. I'm assuming he's on it. I'm not sure who did sound. I don't know. Well, I know we know one person that did sound, but like very little bit of the sound. But yeah, it's I don't know if they've announced that. Anyways, I think it's Jerry, Jerry Thompson. I'm pretty sure it is. Yeah, it's really good. The sound is good. The art is good. All that is good. So it's I don't know, man. It's really it's really a lot of fun. It's a lot of fun. I'm hoping more people play it. Oh, video wise. That was the thing. The clarification. Some people were upset about the art, the fact there's only two people in the middle. This was clarified on Loser Kid Pinball Podcast that the third guy, the police officer, to use an art asset, you have to work with the estate on that. Right. That's a totally different thing, and apparently the estate never even responded to him. So they couldn't use his likeness in the art, but they can use whatever they want from the movie. That's a separate licensing thing. The other clarification I think is really important was, once again, it was on Loser Kid Pinball Podcast. Elwin basically said, for all those people out there that are saying, why doesn't the shark eat the ball? He basically said, imagine the speed of the Godzilla building. The licensor required that the shark comes out of the playfield. That was a licensor requirement. They wanted the shark to surprise the player. They wanted the shark to come out of the playfield. So the shark had to start below the playfield. But the only way that they could make that mech reliable and make it be a scoop was basically imagine the speed of the Godzilla building. So there's the shark mouth. You hit it.
    89:32
    So please thank you for not doing that. So they're just like, imagine the shark on top of the Godzilla building. That's what the mech would have been. So those are my clarifications. Well, while playing it, I don't know if you two got the same feeling. I thought about that while playing it, and I was just like, I don't know how this would have worked. No, the speed. Yeah, I'm just like, that would just be, because there was nothing about Jaws in the movie that was slow once he attacked. No, he'd pop up, and there would be times he'd pop up, and people, by the time they'd turn around, it was back underwater. Right. It makes sense to be a fast, quick, fast toy. After you play the game, for all the haters out there that still think we're crazy, once you've played the game, you will understand the last thing that you want in that game is a mech that slows it down. Because everything else about this game and the layout is speed and flow. It would be out of place, I think. What do you think, Tom Graff? You think it's still out of place? Yes.
    90:32
    Yeah. Tom's all in on an LE. I'm so freaking jealous of him right now. Like because that premium I'm telling you, I think the way that this plays, it would not surprise me if it earns really well on location. But I just I don't know. I got the feeling the premium is just going to be just a whole whole other animal. Like it's I don't know how to go. You got to go premium or Ellie. I don't know if there's any Ellie's out there, but I will say the art package after seeing this art package, it has sold me that the Ellie art package is definitely better than the premium art package. Oh, yeah. I would want I would want the pro back glass for sure. But like the iconic that could be a mirror. Oh, yeah. I know. I know. If only there were at least if only we knew somebody getting an L.E.
    91:22
    Well, that's all I got. That was our our pre-show notes were like we can talk about state. I think we yeah, we crushed it. We could talk about Jaws did well. Right. I remember to actually that's the only problem we record like once a month. And so we love the feedback. Please feel free to continue to message us on Facebook or email us at TripleDrain at gmail.com. But sometimes we get all that feedback a few days after the episode is released. And then it's been three weeks since I read it all. So I should probably do better and like we did get a we did get a good email, though, that I would like to do next time to where we'll talk about our. Well, yeah, we could message us. It's a good question. It's an excellent question. I think we should do that next podcast for sure. we had three items three items and what i found is we only did two we only did two and then we had another random side item we had to talk about stuff yeah but no the main thing we got to talk about before we leave is the winner winner 3x tom graph what is going on with that there's a tournament at district 82 called the winter 3x it's a stern pro circuit event uh basically it's like a mini primberg so you uh you play three games uh basically five rounds in one day play three games and you get put into divisions go into the next one uh the next day and play in your division same thing uh you play five rounds three games and then i believe it's top 20 no Might be top 32 make the playoffs. I have to look into that. And then, yeah, playoffs on Sunday. There's a couple other tournaments going on in the evening, some knockouts. But it should be a good time. We're going to stream it.
    93:13
    I'm looking forward to it. On what channel are you going to stream it on? It'll be on the Fox Cities Pinball channel. But I was going to plug that in. If you want to stand up a little bit, just stand up a little bit. I feel like it. and Superman that sweatshirt. He's got a beautiful Fox City shirt on. That's what I'm saying. Merch. Where's your merch at? Is it Silver Ball Swag? He's wearing it on his head. Silver Ball Swag. Yeah, you can get that Triple Drain hat. You've got some cool merch on there too, Travis. I do. Joel, where's your Triple Drain stuff?
    93:44
    I had some good comeback. I'm restraining my... That's what I thought. All right. Well, let's do our plugs. Let's wrap this up. All right. Well, as I just said, I do Fox City's Pinball. It's on Twitch. Twitch when we're live. YouTube when it's not live. Yeah. Awesome.
    94:05
    Keep doing what you're doing, Tom. I'll try. Yeah. Travis, you ready? Yeah, yeah. Okay. New is coming. There we go. Yeah, you guys can find me here on the Triple Drain Pinball Podcast with my excellent co-host, Tom Graff. And Joel, he's here too. He's fine. He's a good guy. He has a beautiful beard. Joel, I got to say that your beard is pretty excellent. Thank you. I'm going to grow one eventually. One day. When I'm 60. One day. Your son will grow a good one. Yeah, my son's pretty awesome at growing it. He's only 14. What can you do? So, yep, you guys can find me here or find me on YouTube at the Pinball Company. I do stuff on there. All right, your turn, Joel. Okay, and yes, I'm Joel. I do this podcast. I also do the Flippin' Out stream every Wednesday night. That's on YouTube. Check us out on YouTube. like, subscribe, all that stuff.
    94:54
    And then, yeah, shout out to Penwoofer for hooking me up with these. I'm enjoying those lights a lot. And then if you happen to buy the Galactic Tank Force lunchbox from American Pinball and you want to complete your lunchbox collection, check us out on Zazzle. Search Triple Drain on Zazzle, and you can get your Triple Drain lunchbox. It'll look real good right next to it. Otherwise, our stuff on Silver Ball Swag, which is always a good time. But, yeah, that's all I got. Like always, Tom, you get the last words. Have a good day.