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The Pinball Show Ep 27: A September To Remember

The Pinball Show·podcast_episode·1h 30m·analyzed·Aug 31, 2020
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TL;DR

Stern teases new Marvel/Avengers cornerstone; hosts debate strategy, licensing, and Zombie Yeti's role.

Summary

The Pinball Show discusses a surprise Stern Pinball teaser for a Marvel-themed cornerstone game ("Avengers"), confirming a third 2020 cornerstone release. Hosts debate whether redoing Avengers so soon is a strategic move, analyze the comic-book versus film license choice (influenced by the Deadpool precedent), and note Zombie Yeti's involvement in the artwork. The episode includes banter about classification systems, giveaway details (Ninja Turtles banner), and speculation on designer involvement in licensing decisions.

Key Claims

  • Stern Pinball has announced a third cornerstone title for 2020, likely the last of the year

    high confidence · Host confirms via Flippin' Out Pinball stream that the Marvel teaser represents confirmation of a third cornerstone title for 2020

  • The new Avengers game uses comic book art style by Zombie Yeti rather than movie assets

    high confidence · Host identifies artwork as Zombie Yeti style based on hollow-eyed character design; confirmed Zombie Yeti was working on another Stern project

  • The game includes obscure Marvel comic characters like Supergiant, not just film characters

    high confidence · Travis Murray noted Supergiant in artwork (not portrayed in films) and other obscure comic characters, suggesting comic book focus over film adaptation

  • Stern may have accelerated this announcement due to competitive pressure from JJP and Deep Root announcements

    low confidence · Host speculates Stern might be showing a 'burn move' to preempt competitor announcements, but co-host is skeptical of this level of competitive concern

  • The original Stern Avengers cornerstone was not well-received

    medium confidence · Host states 'it was not a good game' regarding the original George Gomez Avengers cornerstone, citing Black Widow ramp frustration

  • Marvel Studios (film) licensing is more restrictive than Marvel Comics licensing

    medium confidence · Hosts discuss that Deadpool worked well with comic license rather than film, suggesting comics offer more creative freedom and are easier to work with than Studios

  • Chadwick Boseman died from colon cancer at age 43

    high confidence · Host mentions recent loss of Chadwick Boseman, citing colon cancer as cause; treated as sad but timely given Black Panther inclusion in game

Notable Quotes

  • “I think this pin was likely slated to be released in July... end of July would have made the most sense.”

    Host @ ~midway — Speculates on Stern's production timeline and backlog recovery post-COVID

  • “If the eyes are hollow and it looks like the character wants to kill you, it's most likely Zombie Yeti artwork.”

    Host @ ~midway — Identifying signature art style; confirms Zombie Yeti involvement in new game

  • “Stern is Apple. Yes, correct. JJP is not Apple.”

    Co-host/Host @ ~midway — Market positioning: acknowledges Stern's dominant market share vs. competitors

  • “I would rather have the money for mechs.”

    Host (paraphrasing Keith Elwin) @ ~midway — Suggests designer agency in licensing decisions; trades licensing assets for mechanical budget

  • “Do they really care? ...probably right.”

    Co-host/Dennis @ ~midway — Skepticism about whether Stern restructures releases to counter competitors

Entities

Stern PinballcompanyZombie YetipersonAvengers (Stern pinball)gameGeorge GomezpersonKeith ElwinpersonJersey Jack PinballcompanyDeep Root Pinballcompany

Signals

  • ?

    community_signal: The Pinball Show launching giveaway program (Ninja Turtles banner) to increase listener engagement and review submissions on iTunes/TwipDB

    high · Hosts detail giveaway mechanics: random draw from iTunes/TwipDB reviewers; requires email submission for contact; banner valued at $200+ on Pinside

  • ?

    event_signal: Stern implementing community engagement via Marvel game reveal teaser with broad character inclusion (comic focus on Black Order, Supergiant, etc.)

    medium · Teaser artwork analyzed for Easter eggs and character inclusion; Travis Murray identified comic deep cuts

  • ?

    competitive_signal: Possible (but unlikely) competitive response: Stern accelerated Marvel announcement to preempt JJP (Guns N' Roses/Toy Story) and Deep Root announcements

    low · Host speculates 'burn move' theory; co-host dismisses as unlikely given Stern's market dominance (Apple vs. Samsung analogy)

  • ?

    design_philosophy: Hosts question strategic value of redoing Avengers cornerstone so soon after original George Gomez version; Black Widow ramp gimmick already improved on Deadpool

    medium · Host states redoing theme 'is a mistake to redo Avengers this soon'; questions whether gimmicks worth saving after Deadpool improvements

  • ?

    design_philosophy: New Avengers game uses comic-book license and art style rather than film assets, following Deadpool precedent for creative freedom over movie tie-in restrictions

    high · Hosts discuss comic characters like Supergiant (not in films), note easier Marvel Comics licensing vs. Studios, reference Deadpool success with comic approach

Transcript

groq_whisper · $0.270

0:00
Warning, the following episode contains adult language and screaming goats. Listener discretion is advised.
0:10
The Pinball Network is online. Launching, The Pinball Show. Pinball is a game of skill. For some, it's a passion and a lifestyle.
0:26
It's time for The Pinball Show. It's pinball with personality. No, I've had people directly message me an email over at Eclectic Gamers about it. We created a new classification system. We as a generous district group. The royal we, I suppose. Yeah, we created a classification system that was based more on emotion and tone. Mostly tone, but people don't know what that means. So you received some messages about this that people were in love with it, right? No, most of the messages I received were more negative. That's probably just because they were Creasel fans or something. I don't think I actually have fans, but I would say that it was more along the lines of, yeah, it seemed like they got where you were coming from, but they didn't see how that was actually an improvement on the existing system. and one message I think noted that they felt that this was already represented in the existing categories. I think I had two others that were more just – they didn't like it. They just didn't like it.
2:03
I would rather have them just downright say, I don't like it because then I know they're wrong. Yeah, and I think one of them ended up emailing you or emailing to the pinball network. Yeah, they might have. I know they did. I checked. I know. Somebody was happy about it though, a couple people. Yeah, I saw that too. But I think the majority of the feedback has been less supportive. Chip on the shoulder will make me work harder. It's all good. I think that I can build upon this. I think the majority, based off the feedback, would rather that the building not be finished construction-wise. That's fine. A lot of people, I would say the majority of pinball, love Metallica. And I don't think that's a fun game. And I'm right.
Deadpool (Stern pinball)
game
Travis Murrayperson
Chadwick Bosemanperson
Ninja Turtles (Stern pinball)game
Jurassic Park (Stern pinball)game
The Pinball Showpodcast
Flippin' Out Pinballpodcast
This Week in Pinballmedia
  • ?

    design_philosophy: Hosts speculate designers (e.g., Keith Elwin) may negotiate to trade movie assets for expanded mechanical budget ('BOM'), suggesting creator input on licensing choices

    low · Host speculates 'if we do the comic license instead of the movie license, how much more money can I spend on my BOM?' based on Elwin's player/designer profile

  • ?

    licensing_signal: Marvel Comics licensing offers more creative freedom and character variety than Marvel Studios film licensing; easier negotiation pathway than Deadpool

    high · Hosts reference Deadpool precedent; discuss that comic license allows obscure characters and original story arcs without film restriction

  • ?

    manufacturing_signal: Stern may have caught up on backlog after COVID delays, enabling earlier third cornerstone announcement than expected

    medium · Host speculates game was originally slated for July (end of April Turtles + 3-month gap), now accelerated to October, suggesting production recovery

  • $

    market_signal: Third cornerstone announcement suggests Stern's production capacity has improved post-COVID, enabling faster release cadence than anticipated

    medium · Host expected December announcement for third cornerstone; now in September/October, indicating accelerated timeline

  • ?

    personnel_signal: Zombie Yeti assigned to Avengers game artwork; one cornerstone project (likely this one) was a surprise assignment to him

    high · Host states 'one of them came up as something of a surprise to him' and identifies Zombie Yeti signature art style; previously public that Zombie Yeti working on another Stern project

  • ?

    announcement: Stern Pinball officially teased Marvel/Avengers as third cornerstone of 2020 via 'Assembling Soon' video with Marvel film intro style, Zombie Yeti artwork, and dynamic sounds

    high · Host confirms via Flippin' Out stream; teaser video titled 'Assembling Soon' with Marvel montage aesthetic

  • ?

    technology_signal: Hosts uncertain whether new Avengers will use LCD screen (Spike 3) or traditional playfield display, questioning Stern's platform strategy evolution

    medium · Host asks 'Will the world be under glass?' expressing skepticism about Stern's recent trend of custom digital worlds vs. traditional playfield

    • 2:45
    It took a long time for people to realize I was a woodchopper. Is it a wood chipper or a wood chopper? It is a wood chopper. What's a chipper then? Wood chipper?
    2:55
    That's where the bodies go. What have you been up to this week? Chipping. Chipping? Oh, no. It's been a busy week. I do fear whenever I do visit you at some point, visit your home, what I will find and if I will be able to leave. It's a house, not Hotel California. I hate the Eagles, man. We've got a lot of news this week, but before we do so, I want to give our listeners a chance at a giveaway. A banner? I guess we can do a banner. I know. People always ask you about the banners. That's why I mention it. We could do like a banner, a shaker motor, maybe a trans light. Oh, can it be one of those red trimmer shakers? I don't like the red trimmers. So it makes sense for you to give them away. Get rid of them. I don't have any. Oh, never mind. Yeah, no, I just get the OEM Stern ones. Straight from Stern, straight from the source. That's where I get my stuff from. We could give away that. We could do a pinball dust cover. Stern just released those. We could do some swag. What sounds like fun to give away? Here's the thing, listener. On other mediums, straight down the middle, we give away stuff. On the Flippin' Out Facebook, we give away stuff. Some of my sponsored podcasts, Loser Kid and Poor Man, I give away stuff. So I thought, you know what? The pinball show peoples, they need to be given something, too. I'll leave it up to you, Dennis. Give them something good. Not a pinball machine. Yeah, no, obviously. Let's not be silly. I imagine most people don't have the dust cover, or a dust cover, for that matter. That might be the most universal, because not every game needs a shaker. I think the banner is more beloved. I would agree. All right, let's do a banner. Let's do a banner. How about a Turtles banner? Toodles, ooh. Maybe Avengers banner. We'll talk about that in a minute. We'll give away a Ninja Turtles banner. I think the best way to do this, Dennis, is I would like to, we'll just give away the banner randomly to someone that has given us a review on iTunes or the TwipDB site. How about that? Okay. That's a pretty easy way to pull the names. Anybody can participate. If you want a beautiful banner, hell, these things sell for over $200 on Pinside. If you want a brand new banner free of charge, Continental US, if we're shipping it outside of there, message me. We'll talk about shipping rates and whatnot. But we'll ship you a nice hand-drawn zombie Yeti artwork for Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles by Stern Pinball. All you have to do is have had reviewed us on the DB website, the database by This Week in Pinball, or on iTunes. And I'll randomly go through it. Here's the thing that I also need. If you do submit a review, if you have submitted a review, go to – just email us just to let us know your name because I'm not going to know how to get a hold of you if you just review, right, from the websites. Yeah. Also, there's a hurdle with iTunes, unfortunately, that I think the reviews are categorized by store. So like you normally, when you look, you see the US reviews. You actually have to go through a different storefront to see the UK reviews. Okay. I forgot about that so to the Europeans go to the DB website to review us but if you've submitted a review you can do it now submit a review on the DB website or on iTunes and if you've done so email us at the pinball network at gmail.com and let us know that you have done a review for us and you'll be thrown into that giveaway that's exciting yeah you're right there's no way we would be able to Plus, that'll sort out anyone who doesn't want it.
    6:38
    That's very true. Like, I don't want no turtle banner. Oh, where would I hang it? By your neon. There's no more room in there.
    6:46
    Those walls are full. You can legit hang it in the middle of your room like a rafter banner. You don't understand the scale of that room. That ceiling cannot accommodate that. I could not even have... I don't even think I can have big guns in that room. I bet if I sold a Dennis Creasel stern-sized banner, it would do very well. How are our shirts doing? We don't have shirts. That's a good point. I'm looking for a designer for those shirts. We're going to get some cool Pinball Show t-shirts pending approval from Dennis Creasel. Maybe some TP in general t-shirts too. I don't know. I think I'd support a Fliptronic shirt. I know just another pinball has a shirt. Silver Ball Chronicles has a shirt. Yeah, they do have the Silver Ball Swag stuff going. All right, let's talk about some news. It's time for TPN Industry News.
    7:42
    Hi, this is Ken Rudberg with your Jersey Jack update. The clock is ticking down to September, which is the rumored release month for Jersey Jack's next pin. Sometimes we forget the next title hasn't even been announced yet. And there is renewed speculation on what the next Jersey Jack title will be. Some recent posts on Pinside have started to question the likelihood of Jersey Jack releasing a Guns N' Roses in the current political and social climate. Guns N' Roses has always been a controversial choice for Jersey Jack with its past lineup of family-friendly pins. Because of this, some say that the rumored Toy Story is now more likely to be the next release. Wrong! There are pinball fans on both sides of the fence and both titles look to be potential big sellers for Jersey Jack. Whether you are looking for a grittier or more whimsical pin, see what I did there, Zach? Bye, bye, bye! You are likely to be happy with whatever is coming next from Jersey Jack Pinball. For the Pinball Show, this has been Ken Rudberg with your Jersey Jack Update.
    8:45
    It's always great to hear from the correspondent, Zach. Yeah, I will have to correct Rudberg there. I don't see a potential toy story as whimsical. that doesn't scream whimsy to me does it you I don't think on that system anymore because we've already decided it's not continuing maybe dynamic if it is kind of action it's polished very much polished it is cheerful yeah okay I appreciate the nod to the system there ready I like that and it seems like you're the only one doing your fucking job nicely done I guess there just doesn't have been any news at all from any other manufacturers this last week. Craig's up in the woods in Saskatchewan or something. I don't know where he's been. He's been up there for like a year now. He better have a beard when he comes back. He looks like the guy from Frontier.
    9:41
    That's what Keith Elwin looks like. Speaking of Keith Elwin, oh, Cricket. You know what? I've got cool toys now. I've got a new microphone, Dennis. Hey, see? Got that. Where's my Crickets? There it is I'd replace those with Frontier Crickets What are the Frontier Crickets? Da da da Oh I could just do this all That's when Dennis says something fun That's when I talk People are laughing at me It's good times Alright, those are default I'm going to fix those in the future But speaking of Frontier's Keith Elwin up in the woods developing a game, do you think Keith Elwin is next for Stern Pinball's release? Yes, I do. Oh, you do? Yeah. We got a teaser this week, Dennis. We got a teaser from Stern Pinball about their next release. People didn't know, though. Is this just a home pin? Is this a vault? Is this a cornerstone? What are they showing us? The video was titled, Assembling Soon, dot, dot, dot. And it did the Marvel film intro montage, if you will. But instead of it saying Marvel at the end, it said Stern Pinball. It had the dynamic sounds that you're accustomed to from the Marvel Universe. And it had what looked to be hand-drawn artwork that looked and resembled to me like a zombie yeti of all of the different Marvel Universe characters, including the bad guys, the villains. Mm-hmm. Now, you watched this trailer. What were your first thoughts? Because I didn't think we would see or hear of a new game this month. I didn't see that. I thought it would be an October release, and I sure as hell didn't think it was going to be any Avengers again. It confused a lot of people, didn't it? Yeah, I would say so, though. Obviously, we had discussed on a prior episode how there was mention of a Marvel thing. The rumor was circulating. I believe it was at one point with This Week in Pinball, an item that was taken down had suggested that. Jeff nailed that one. Yeah, Marvel-based. And so that fits with that. I, when I saw the trailer, thought Home Pin, The Pin, a home edition like Star Wars. Which would have made sense if they were going to do another Home Pin. I thought so because Avengers is a huge franchise. We're well past but not historically past when the movies have come out. So it's not exactly timely, but it's also not. A good year. Yeah, but for a home environment, I could just see Avengers being a very good choice to try and sell one of their lower cost models in. So that's just where I was. And they still may do that in the future. Sure, sure. So it surprised me to see anything Avengers-based because we did get a previous CERN pinball machine cornerstone of Avengers designed by George Gomez. and I immediately felt once I had heard that this was a cornerstone this new release is a cornerstone that obviously it has to be different they would never vault that original Avengers it was not a good game I thought initially though maybe they do the Batman 66 thing to it the Batman Dark Knight oh slight modifications to the layout yeah and changes in code I thought maybe Gomez gets his hands on this redoes it reworks it we get some more code I thought maybe we get that, but it doesn't sound like that. Yeah, I mean, I could see it if there was anything about Avengers that's worth saving that wasn't already done on another pin already. And I say it that way because I remember for a lot of people the biggest frustration was the nature of the Black Widow ramp. I feel that Gomez already fixed that with Deadpool's shot, which is very reminiscent, but much better executed. Very true. So the gimmick's been already redone better, so I just don't see the value to doing it. Well, the only reason I thought that, though, Dennis, is because has Stern ever taken a title and totally started over with it? What do you mean? I can't think of a theme that they've taken and started over and done a completely new pinball machine on. Now, they've done that with Batman. They've retooled it. That's why I was thinking initially retooling what was already there. But to my knowledge, and I might be wrong, listener help me out, I don't know of any theme that Stern has made that they said, you know what, let's go back and do Spider-Man again, but this time we're starting over and doing something totally different. Let's start over with Star Wars. They haven't, they've never done that. So you mean doing a new game on a theme they already did? Yes, correct. And you're not going back in their history to include their Sega and Data East choices? No. I mean, if we did that, of course, there's some. But no, just more, I mean, this is contemporary. We had an Avengers contemporary pinball machine by Stern, and now it looks as if we're getting another one. Given the context of what you've stated, I agree with you. I don't think it's impressive. If anything, I think it's a mistake to redo Avengers this soon. Interesting. Let's talk about that here in a second. Okay. But this is, we spoke about it on the Flippin' Out Pinball stream. I was able to confirm for the hobbyists that this is, in fact, confirmation of a third cornerstone title for 2020, and likely probably the last cornerstone of this year. That shocked a lot of people. I was, sort of as you mentioned earlier, I was very surprised that they would announce the third Cornerstone this soon. I felt they would announce the third Cornerstone this year, but I didn't think October. I actually thought they'd do Stranger Things style and try and get it out in December. And I based that off of the delays from COVID. That Turtles seems to be selling well. You'd know better than me. But there was a lot of pin-up construction demand for more Jurassic Parks. We already heard about things like another Guardians Pro run. is coming out later. So it just seemed like there's like a backlog of stuff. So I just thought they were going to wait because if the line's busy, why release a new game? Very true. They are backlogged pretty significantly. But what I think this is an indication of, I could be wrong, but I feel good about this one. I think this pin was likely slated to be released in July because we had... I think that's reasonable. We had Turtles that was supposed to come out the beginning of April. timing-wise, end of July would have made the most sense. And then we would get one, like you said, end of December, beginning of January. We don't know, is it a Munsters? Do we call it Q4, Q1? What do we do there? I thought that's what we would get. But I thought October just to catch up on everything. But I think this is an indication that Stern Pinball may have been able to do a lot of catching up over the last couple of months, even given the current environment. Yeah. It could be that. It could be related to licensing as well. I mean, the low-hanging fruit is they hear of J.J.P., Deep Root about to announce something, and they're like, I'll show them. We'll throw the biggest film franchise and one of the biggest in history. We'll throw that on everyone's plate to take some dollars before these other guys announce.
    17:16
    I'm skeptical. I mean, I get it. It's like a great burn move, but I'm a little skeptical that they care that much about this level of competition, that they would restructure their release schedule around it. I think you're correct.
    17:32
    No offense, but we don't know how well Deep Root is going to sell. Jersey Jack is Jersey Jack, but Stearns has got so much market share. Do they really care? when I mean they've been used to the whole thing of Jersey Jack does their announcement and then they get another pin out anyway before the games are shipping so that's true now we don't know how it's going to be I think ultimately they care but do they care to the extent of of eliciting a behavior like that probably right I I think if they're smart they recognize that they have competition and they pay attention to it I would hope that they do and I think we see that in things like the move to you know from spike to spike to for an lcd screen surely that is in no small part due to what others in the industry were doing absolutely but there's a big leap between caring about what your competition does and then you know changing like does samsung change when they release their new uh their new galaxy phone because of what motorola is doing no but they It might because of what Apple's doing. Sure, but in that case, Stern is Apple. Yes, correct. JJP is not Apple. Is JJP Samsung? I don't know who the second biggest manufacturer of cell phones is anymore.
    18:52
    Kyocera? Google, maybe? Kyocera. With the Pixels? I don't know. I used to use Samsungs, and then I switched to Google for the latest phone. Androids. well android is a software so on this teaser we got numerous very diverse characters of the avengers universe or the marvel universe is what we'll call it we also get the the black order i'm not familiar with that i thought this would be your wheelhouse i don't read comics the black order i've learned a lot over the last couple days i gotta give a shout out to to travis murray He is a huge Marvel Universe fan, and he does a podcast and a YouTube show. But I got a lot of information, research stuff from him. He talked about the Black Order kind of being the villains of the Marvel Universe, especially against the Avengers. And he said that when seeing all of the artwork, he was talking about Supergiant. He's seen Supergiant in there, which is not portrayed on the films yet. And even some pretty obscure characters, he said it seems like it's more true to some of the comic book stuff. Do you think that's good? Bad? Comic versus film? Yeah, I mean, I think it worked well for Deadpool. I know not everyone agrees, and they really wish that it was Ryan Reynolds. But had it been Ryan Reynolds, it would have to have been the movies. It's hard to know in hindsight. You have a – well, you just – from a creative standpoint, you have more freedom doing the comic book stuff because you're not tied as – I mean you still have to respect the assets and do what the comics want you to do. But you've got so many stories you could incorporate and pull from because there are these arcs that happen in the comics. So you have that. You can involve other characters, and it doesn't have to be just retelling the film version, which is what would have happened if they had done in-game. It would be more Guardians of the Galaxy-based kind of stuff. Yeah, yeah. I mean, they can – again, I don't know how strict Marvel would be with them having to follow a particular comic line. I still think there's probably going to be an expectation they follow some sort of story arc that happened in the written material. But they're just – because it's so much cheaper to release comics than it is to release movies, they have more to choose from. Yeah, dealing with the Marvel comic book company is probably easier than dealing with the film licensing Marvel. Well, didn't Stern indicate – and I may not be remembering right, so I am truly asking, but I thought that in interviews it had been indicated that it was relatively easy to work with Marvel on the Deadpool pinball machine, which is comic-themed. I recall that same thing, yes. So I think that we have precedence for that because – Maybe it's a choice then. Right. That's not going through Marvel Studios. That's going through Marvel Comics, and it's different. And we don't know when it comes to Stern has been doing some of this lately. We're going to create our own world, almost like a video game-esque feel. Will the world be under glass? I sure as hell hope so.
    21:53
    Otherwise, watch out for those air balls. But they've been doing that lately, and I always question that move personally. It sounds like you're on the other side of it. But Jurassic Park was kind of that way. it's still, I mean I'm skeptical that they're going to create their own world with this so you think they'll stick to the comic books? I think that there's just a lot there that they could mine it's less to have to think about a lot of stories, yeah I don know because the Megalodon and stuff was different through Deadpool so they definitely have shown a willingness to go ahead and craft their own story I don think people buy the pinball machine based off of whether the story was self or not To me, it's a bigger question about whether the comic license is as strong as the movie license, and it probably is not. No. So not basing it off the movie could suppress sales. I feel the same with Deadpool, even though I think Deadpool toned out really well. I think they would have sold more of them had they gone ahead and done the movie thing. But I think Deadpool sold well because of A, the art, and B, the style of which they went with that LCD animation. Yeah, I think over time, I think it helped. And music. It's just it came together really well on Deadpool. Yeah, but at this point, when was the last stern that didn't come together overall very well i mean that's a matter of opinion like you're not exactly hurting for things that have good art and a good display and good sound at this point are you i mean you might not like the gameplay you might not like the rules but i mean i think for me the reason that jurassic park stays in my collection is because of the rules and the gameplay it is Certainly, certainly not the art and not the animation or assets. That is a, for me personally, that's kind of a turnoff. Okay. And if the gameplay and the rules weren't there like they are, it wouldn't be in my collection. And I don't know if it's a preference thing. I know that Keith Elwin did Jurassic Park, and there was stories out there as if they could have got those movie assets, but they chose not to. But is that just them saying, who knows? Who knows? Does Stern want to be in control or not? Yeah, it's moot until we talk about this and how this comes out. We're going to know more about this. What happened with Jurassic Park is not really relevant to this game. It is if it's the same designer. Why? I don't understand. Because then we can kind of get a feel of maybe this is a designer preference thing rather than an assets limitation thing.
    24:41
    Okay. You see what I'm saying? Yeah, but I – I guess a lot of people don't care. Well, and I'm not saying that. I'm curious. I'm not sure how big of a role the designer has in deciding what license assets they're going to specifically go for or not. I'm not – I think they are. I think there's an involvement. I don't know if they get – I mean the way it sounded is Stern considers a variety of licenses and they're whatever deals are whatever deals, and then they try and find which designer wants to work on that particular project. And if they don't have the interest by the design team, they drop pursuing the license. Okay. Yeah, I can see that.
    25:24
    I wouldn't be surprised if Elwin would say something like, if we do the comic license instead of the movie license, how much more money can I spend on my BOM? I could see Elwin doing that and being like, I would rather have the money for mechs. He's a player. Right. So I could see that. It feels like when we've seen that artwork, Dennis, we're going to get more of a comic book style like a Deadpool. What were your first reactions to some of the sneak peek of the artwork? Because I'm assuming that that artwork is going to be used in the Pinball Machine Pro Premium LA. What was your first reaction? Was it a positive reaction to the artwork? Negative? Yeah, it looked good. It looks like Zombie Eddie. It does look like Zombie Eddie. I said on a recent stream, hey, I streamed this last week, Dennis.
    26:10
    How about that? A reaction to this teaser. You guys are going to have to follow me on Flippin' Out Pinball on Twitch. But I said on there, if the eyes are hollow and it looks like the character wants to kill you, it's most likely Zombie Yeti artwork. Yeah. Plus, it's – I mean, I knew Zombie Yeti was working on another Stern project, so I think he's been public about it. He never told me not to say it. So I knew he had another Stern project. Now, I don't think he was originally the one planned to do it. That or turtles. It was one of them. One of them came up as something of a surprise to him. I'm guessing this one. I'd like to be a fly on the moon. Well, you know, people change. Other people might have to pull out of a project sort of stuff. It'd be a bee. If you were an insect, what kind of insect would you want to be?
    26:59
    That question is without meaning. A spider? That's not an insect. Spider's not an insect? I thought you said biology. Spider has eight legs. It's not an insect. What the hell is it then? An arachnid? It's an arachnid. What the hell is the difference between an arachnid and an insect? Insects crawl around. You can step on them. Insects have six legs. That's like the easiest way to describe it. Are you shitting me? Is that true?
    27:22
    I thought you took biology. I didn't take spider biology. Oh, well, my biology professor was a, what are the bug entomologist?
    27:33
    Entomologist? Is that what it is? Entomology? Dude, you're way over my head. I have no clue. Now I have to look. Okay. You look. I'm trying to think what kind of insect I'd be. Entomology. Branch of zoology concerned with the study of insects. Yeah, I had an entomologist as a biology professor. Were you his protege? No, I was not his protege. I did one biology class and that is it. I'm taking a rec. Insect noun. A small arthropod animal that has six legs and generally one or two pairs of wings. That's bullshit. The scientist is dumb. No. The spider is an insect, damn it. No, it is not. We're including spider family, the arachnid family in here. This question was stupid to start with. What about a centipede? Is a centipede not an insect? Oh, my God. It has more than six legs. Does it have six legs? Well, then what the hell is a centipede? A centipede is an elongated metameric creature. Metameric? Yes. What the hell is it, starship troopers?
    28:30
    Metameric. Shit that crawls around. It's an arthropod. You know arthropod. There, it's an arthropod. Is there a smug, always right insect? Because that'd be you.
    28:40
    You knew what I was talking about. I thought you were talking about insects, and then you're all like spiders. A five-year-old knows a spider isn't an insect.
    28:50
    Bet they probably do, you're right. Not in my brain. I mean, a spider's an arthropod as well. I had to look that up. Huh. So it's just more than six. It's an arachnid and an arthropod, so. Science is dumb. There. I'd be an ant. Can we move on? I think you would be. Would you be the queen, though? I think you would be the queen ant. But I'm not saying like a gender thing. I'm saying because I can see you as an ant, but I can see you kind of leading and having minions come to you. I've changed my mind. I would be a termite, and I would eat your pinball machines.
    29:24
    You can't eat my deep root machines because they're made of aluminum and plastic. I'd be one of those fuzzy spiders that are really super cute with all the eyes like the macro you see that colorful beautiful spider that's who I'd be but I'd bite your ass too you gotta watch out in the night when you're sleeping speaking of creatures did you see that Black Panther was included in this? yeah that's cool because we recently had the loss this last week of, I think, one of the most important actors of this generation, Chadwick Boseman. He's only 43, died of, I believe, colon cancer. Yeah, that was colon cancer. A horrible, horrible, tragic set of events this last week. But it's cool that we're going to get, it's very timely that we're going to get that tribute kind of in this pinball machine. You're going to see Black Panther somewhere. Black Panther is a favorite superhero of a lot of people. so and some people were calling for a black panther pinball machine yeah again given the strength of the movie i think it would have made a lot of sense to like to do a movie it was a huge movie film because it was just it was extremely successful and it shows diversity yeah but i'm not i'm not at the point where i think pinball manufacturers are factoring that in for their license acquisitions they can see there's a bonus add-on yeah i don't know i don't i don't know Because I don't think like we're thinking – yeah, I agree. But if we're thinking diversity-wise, if we're thinking about – is it feminine role? Sure, sure. I mean based off of if you wanted to see underrepresented groups in pinball, Black Panther and Wonder Woman would be the two most logical commercially successful comic choices that I would advocate for. I agree. I think the female superhero Wonder Woman is probably the biggest. Captain Marvel is not as big. Black Widow's not as big, right? Yeah, well, again, I'm just talking about film success. Captain Marvel was a successful film, especially for DC, though, which has really been struggling lately. Wonder Woman was like the one beacon of light in a sea of really disappointing films. With a new film coming out in 1984. Yeah, and that's another thing you've got. So there's a timely relevance to it. I still don't think it's at the legs of sell. I still don't think Wonder Woman right now has the legs to sell. I disagree We're getting warmer I think it would do Again, I don't know what we're comparing it to It would do better than Black Knight Yes, but I would agree that I would have questioned Black Knight as well And movie themed Wonder Woman I think could have been competitive with comic themed Deadpool But I'm a pretty big fan of Wonder Woman Okay Bear in mind my bias So we have a really cool pin It sounds like it's coming out Who's designing this game? It was on the Yeti. We're banking on him doing the artwork. Oh, yeah. You're going Elwin. Yeah. We're due for Elwin. He's been teasing, promoting on Facebook, and I don't recall him doing that with pins he doesn't work on. That's a good point. Plus, isn't his time in the cycle, Zach? He's fairly consistent. Yes. Annual pin release. You get that summer run from Keith Elwin, and we know that he's a busy beaver.
    32:46
    I mean, who else would you think it might be? Steve Ritchie's do. Steve Ritchie has never done a comic book pin, has he? Remember, designers only work on projects they like.
    32:58
    He's done Star Wars and Star Trek. That is fantasy. Those aren't comics. Those are films. And remember, this is comic-based Avengers. He hasn't done a superhero. George Gomez?
    33:13
    I don't believe Gomez does designing anymore. Not full-fledged. I could see him being involved like if there's a Led Zeppelin with a modified Quicksilver layout that he does that or he tweaks the home – Spider-Man Home Edition layout again for another home – like that's the sort of stuff he does. Deadpool is a – everything he's done has been a modification except Deadpool, and that was because of Trudeau. Okay. Yeah, and – He just desperately needed someone to do the project. Gomez stepped in for the Trudeau thing. Yeah. So I don't think he designs commercial pinball machines from scratch anymore. He's too busy managing the design teams. So I don't believe Gomez would do it. We've got a new designer in the wings is what I'm hearing. We've still – Okay, I hadn't heard about that. We still have a John Borg. He's not due. We have a Brian Eddy. Let's not forget about Brian Eddy. Yeah, I mean, Eddy could – I could see it except, again, because he's been gone from the industry so long, I can't imagine he's going to have a pin in an under – the only person I imagine with a pin in more than one pin a year is Borg. Now, I think Elwin could do it, but so far Borg is the one guy that they're like, okay, you're turning out two pins a year. I think Elwin could do it too. Yeah, I think he could, but so far maybe because he's new, maybe it's because they don't need it to be, probably the latter. He was talking months ago on the Loser Kid podcast that not only was he done with his third pin, he was already well into his fourth pin. Yep, and that's part of what I'm saying. I'm sure he could do it, but I just don't. I think we'll get an annual Elwin, and I agree with you. I think this is going to be a Keith Elwin pin. The terrific part about that, though, is if I feel like we're doing logarithms now or algorithms. What's the difference between a logarithm and an algorithm? Something. But Keith Elwin, I know you want to look it up or go there, but Keith Elwin did say, or no, it slipped on some kind of podcast.
    35:08
    Someone said that, confirmed that Keith Elwin is working with the same artist on his next two pins. So if it is Keith Elwin, then we're going to have another Keith Elwin-Zombie-Yeti duo maybe next year around this time. That's really exciting. Stern is hitting on all cylinders, Dennis. Who's programming this game?
    35:29
    Well, I mean, if it's an Elwin, like I think it is, then I'm sure it's Rick Nagel. Yeah, I think so too. Because Elwin will do his own rule set. And if it's Richie, I think he partnered up very well with Tim Sexton. Yeah, I think Richie and Sexton are going to be grouped together probably permanently. Yeah, that could be the case. It seems like Stern is perhaps going into more consistent teams at this stage.
    35:58
    Maybe that's just a little bit based off of why. That worries me a bit, but yeah, I could see that pattern. I kind of like when they mix them up. So I'm just trying to – I'm sitting here trying to imagine what it would be like with Keith Elwin and Dwight Sullivan doing a project together when Keith feels so strongly about the rules for his games and Dwight is used to having a great deal of control over the game rules. It doesn't seem like a relationship that's fit to work. Because if Dwight was put with Borg all the time, I want to see a Brian Eddy and a Dwight. I want to see how they work together. I like a little hybrid variety there. Well, maybe I'm wrong and it's just going to be like – I just – I think Elwin is always going to be with Nagel because Elwin is always going to want to do the rules. So there's that and then – And I think Tim Sexton is going to want to branch out outside of Richie too. I could see Tim with other people, but I don't know how many other software developers want to work with Steve Richie anymore. So based off of that, maybe it gets to be the point where it was like with Williams where Barry Osler was the only person who could do it. work with python angelo anymore so he was always stuck with him that's going to be tim sexton gets along with steve richie professionally when they're working on a project so just you always give steve timmy i still i still want dwight sullivan working with richie one more time if i can do a documentary on it yeah i don't know if don't i mean dwight dwight has done a number of projects with steve i could i could see it happening again but again it's just like They're very strong-minded, both of them. If Tim and Steve get along so well, do the project, and aren't angry at each other at the end of it, why would you disrupt it for the public to have a different rule set? You're still going to buy the game anyway. Certain programmers do move games. Certain rule designers, I should say, still move games. There are people who adore Dwight Games, and they're going to buy based off of that, just like there are people that are buying off of Elwin's rule set, not his layout. And the same as we know with Lime and Sheets. Lime and Sheets moves units. Here's an interesting thought. We know that themes are considered, we talked about it a little earlier, themes are considered based partly on the designer, the code of preferences, right? We've been told if it doesn't make sense to these designers, then they drop it a la Beetlejuice or Superman. But what about themes being decided on partly by the artist?
    38:23
    Have you ever thought of that? No, I don't think it happens. I think these artists are on contract. They don't have the same pool that these other people in the design team have. One would think that.
    38:33
    That's why I said it. But think about the power that Zombie Yeti has had as he's entered this industry, Dennis. He has had a lot of power, and he stylistically has a range of what he is really proficient at. And we've seen that kind of range in things like a Deadpool. Maybe Avengers popped up again, and they were like, you know what? man, I could see that being a Yeti artwork. And Yeti artwork sells us pinball machines. We should take that into consideration as well. I would love to have what's another blockbuster thing that it's like, I don't know about Yeti doing their artwork for that. I just wonder if they decide that with the artist in mind as well. I wouldn't be surprised if they factor in which artist they want to approach, but I think it's after they have the license. I don't think they go after licenses based off of what art they can find. And they continue. Stern continues to bring in quote-unquote new pinball artists all the time, like Johnny Crapp for Jurassic Park. I don't think there's any pattern of any consistency regarding them in a way that makes me think that they go after licenses because they have artists in the stable that they think will do a good job with it. I think they get a license, and then they feel that they can find an artist that will be good. Well, you know that the artistry of Zombie Yeti, he's got a huge range. He could probably do anything. I was surprised some people – I mean some people were like, well, I don't think this really looks like how he did Ghostbusters. It's like – the same thing happened I know with – and I think I heard about it on the Super Awesome Pinball Show. But people are the same about Chris Franchi. It's like they see Batman and Guardians and they think that that's his one style. He just does photo realism. And you're not seeing his posters and t-shirts. He has other methods that he can do. So that said, this Avengers does look like Zombie Eddie. It does look like that. And I was telling people on the stream, too, it may look a little off because of the rendering of getting that art onto that Stern Marvel logo. Right. They had to curve a lot of the pieces.
    40:38
    Near the edges, it's distorted. Yeah. So people are like, I don't know. It looks a little weird. I'm like, believe me, it's not going to look weird. It's just because they had to move around those images and skew them a little bit. So when does this game get announced? I guess next week or this week when this comes out. This week. Do you think it gets announced today, Monday, for people listening on the premiere? Yeah, sure. I'll say, yeah, Monday. I don't know. I can say, I don't know if I can say, but I will say that at this recording, I have not attended the distributor meeting on this game yet. They may have finally changed how they're doing that to finally eliminate the leak. No, the leak. The leak. Blame it on distros. Everybody just assumes it's distro. Y'all are a bunch of trash. Can't even let things sit for 24 hours. Last couple leaks have came before the distro stuff. Let the record show. But, yeah, so I attend that very soon. Believe me, very, very soon. What time we record? Very soon. but uh yeah so i think maybe a it'd make most sense an early week reveal and then a stream don't they usually do streams on like thursdays oh i don't remember if it's a day of the week level of consistency to that i thought there was no idea and then yeah when do you think they start producing these pins do you think they're on the line already yeah i wouldn't be surprised if they're on the line at this point. If not, they're ready for the line. Yeah, yeah. Stern's never slow about the production versus the announcement. If it is a basic pro premium LE cornerstone release, we'll get pros likely in two to three weeks. That's amazing. Will the printer head for the playfields be unclogged so there are no lines? Hey, I had a lot of people who thought I was too soft. I had people write to me saying that I was too soft on Stern. We expect it from Zach. No, no, they were. I can't say they were like extra disappointed. They're like, Dennis, really? I'm like, I mean, if I'm standing at the flipper buttons, would I have noticed it from the – people sent me images. I'm like, I don't think I would have caught it unless I – I mean I'm not going to get out of the loop and pull the glass and look. I know you well enough that I knew that that probably wouldn't – you wouldn't give too much. I'm just – I am fairly unobservant I suppose.
    42:57
    Understand that. But again, as I noted then, it's like if you're spending thousands of dollars, complain about what you want. It's your money. Yeah, and we still haven't heard back from some of those requests. So we'll see. Oh, have you not? Not yet. The quality team takes time. They review it. Yeah, so it'll take a little bit of time. I always tell the customers that. Like, if we submit anything big like this, we've got to be patient. It's going to take a little bit of time. So, yeah, I think production is going to be soon here. Do you think it'll be a bestseller based on what we know now, which is not much? based off of what we know that it's avengers like i can't say that though i'm sure it will sell a decent quantity based off of what we think or what i think that it's an elwyn game it's game of the year whoa it's gonna jump over turtles that's your prediction yeah that's a bold prediction in terms of in terms of twippy game of the year i think it will any year elwyn puts one out he's going to get it. Wow. A year of an Eric Menier? A year of Turtles? Yeah. Okay, that's bold. A year of Deep Root? Yeah. Elwynn's game will win. If this isn't Elwynn, he will win. I'm going to help support that claim by saying that I've got friends, Dennis. Do you? Do you have friends? I've got friends. And one of these friends is really close to this.
    44:18
    He or she is really, really close to this. And they said, And Zach, they always tell me, I think this one's going to do well. I think this one's going to do great. I think this one's probably not going to do as well. They said the designer has fucking outdone themselves on this game, and that is hard to believe. That's what they told me. That sure sounds like Elwin. I'm just saying. So I think you're right. This is going to do very, very well. How do you think this fares for Jersey Jack and their upcoming release of what we think is rumored Guns N' Roses? Different buyers Yeah in part In part I think so I mean Jersey Jack Pinball has a certain in a way the fan base is it sort of like a Venn diagram where there overlap but then there are those that are all in on the extra what they feel is the extra stuff that they get in a Jersey Jack game Yes. That there's more money put into the BOM. Obviously, they sell at a higher price point. so the big interesting thing that that ken rugberg sort of touched on in his correspondent report is jersey jack has always been known for a very family friendly style theme and guns and roses is in a way a departure from that and much more in the stern dad rock area where it you know i think if i told you guns and roses you would you could have just as easily i probably more easily have guessed stern was working on it given that they've done aaron smith uh and uh acdc acdc metallica yeah metallica um so it's iron maiden i mean come on yeah yeah so i mean it's just they do music like stern's the only one that's been doing music pins right other than uh alice cooper which isn't really a music pin as spooky would say it's it's just a spooky pin yeah so given that it's sort of interesting because it feels like jersey jack with guns and roses and in my view is going into stern's wheelhouse and it's like they're like they're knocking hello hello we're going to show you how to really do a rock pin losers please tell me who's knocking who was that that was knocking is that i was not here or is that uh yeah that was eric is that britainier eric menier was knocking on the stern door and dwight opened it up and and eric's like we're going to show you what a real rock pin is. And then Dwight just pulled out two flashers and blinded him and closed the door.
    46:52
    I imagine he walks around with like, it's kind of like the Spider-Man web things, but that when he pushes his palms out, the, the flashers flash and he's got them in his hand. Light emitting diodes. And it was just blind. You'd be like, seven, like comet seven surface mount diode flasher. Now that's something I would watch like on Anchorman when the different TV news crews, I want to see who's got what weapon. I want a pinball designer and coder brawl. Yes. Battle Royale. An artist brawl, too. And we may lose a few, but then you won't have to worry as much about. It's the risk that we'll take. Yeah. To see who comes out at the top there. That would be awesome. I killed someone with a trident, and I mean the trident from the Stern Electronics.
    47:40
    The real trident. Yeah. Coming off a roof. That would be cool. I could see – I always just picture Jersey Jack and Stern across the same street. I know they're not, but I just always picture that, like them kind of throwing things at the other building on their lunch breaks and stuff. That's how I want to visualize my pinball. So back to your question. I think that it feels like every four months or so, they have the three cornerstone thing.
    48:09
    There's always an anticipation of a new Stern pin. So that as an obstacle isn't anything new to Jersey Jack. Always going to be a battle, yeah.
    48:18
    There is a bit of a question, I suppose, about immediate hype thunder being stolen. Obviously, Jersey Jack now has Ken Cromwell working with them. They've moved their facility. I was told to expect really exciting things with how they do the reveal with Jersey Jack. and Jersey Jack I think in a lot of people's view myself included has beaten Stern on the quality of the reveals before so I'm not going to put it past that Jersey Jack could have a more impressive Guns and Roses reveal versus Avengers and part of the thing is because there was an Avenger six years ago I think there are a lot of people that are kind of at least theme wise shrugging their shoulders and going great Stern you went back to the same well well not only that we've got a lot of pinball machines that are already in that Avengers universe. Iron Man, Guardians of the Galaxy. We see this in film too. There is Marvel fatigue. And I think it's safe to say that there are probably plenty of potential buyers out there that have stern Marvel fatigue. Like, you just had Deadpool come out, and now here we are. We've got this. You already done an Avengers before. You've done X-Men before. You've done Spider-Man twice. But what about Stern coming out before this JJP reveal announcement? Do you think that maybe hinders some sales from Stern because people are like, okay, I might go that route, but at least I got to see what JJP's got first. There may be some that fence it a little bit, especially given that they know there's not going to be a challenge ordering a premium or a pro model from Stern if they wait. So there's – but that – so given that, that sort of pressure, I mean it would have worked the other way as well though I think. It just – I think it balances itself out probably. Like if someone is a big Eric Minier fan and they want to – it's like I got to see the Eric game. I got to – they're probably going to say that no matter what. Just like there might be some that would go ahead and have said if the reveal happened – was going to happen after Guns N' Roses reveal would go, yeah, but the rumor is Avengers is Elwin. I've got to see the Elwynn before I put in the money on the JJ. You see how – but here's the thing. In the versus match, and this could just simply be due to the sheer volume of more pinball machines that Stern puts out, there are more Elwynn fans than there are Menier fans.
    50:46
    Okay. So again, this is part of that 800-pound gorilla advantage that Stern wields. More people have played Elwynn games than they've played Menier games. So more people know they're Elwynn fans than they know that they're Minyer fans because they just haven't tried his game. He only has one game. Yeah, but that's hard. To be fair, though, that is difficult to measure because people like Elwynn based on other things secondary to him being a Stern designer.
    51:11
    That's in it as well. But I think when it comes down to buyers at this point, people have had plenty of chances to play Iron Maiden or Jurassic Park and know whether or not they like what he does. How many people had the chance to play Pirate's Sack? And we don't know what the In Your Style is. We don't know what the In Your Style is. He's had one game. Right. We don't know. I know that. A lot of people feel that Pirates is the best JJP game that they ever put out. But it's also the game that had the least number of units.
    51:43
    I've played it twice, and I'm pretty deep into this hobby. I've played it twice, and one of those was on the prototype. What I was thinking about yesterday, I thought, it's amazing to me that Jersey Jack pinball games come out, and they don't feel as limited.
    52:02
    But people say, oh, the mechs are better. It's got more in them. They're more packed. The light shows. But then you go to Stern, and they still sell a $9,100 product in an LE there. And like Thanos, those things are gone. I can tell you right now, listener. I don't know what my allotment is going to be for LEs on this new untitled Avengers game, but I can tell you I'm probably already full.
    52:29
    The list is long. And, Dennis, that is sight unseen. Yeah. Well, and that, I mean, that I think comes down to Jersey Jack's model where you've got the CE is the real LE and the LE is so – we were – Zach and I, before we started recording, were talking a little bit about watches and limited supply. kind of tying to the Ryan Claytor design step right up game that our watch they had with Mr. Jones's watches which was limited at 100 when you're limiting in the thousands it's you're not really limited and that I mean what what Jersey Jack Ellie not CE but Ellie ever sold out their maximum quantity and you think that um was maybe I mean I don't know well just because of time here's i you know outsider looking in i really hope jjp at this point drops that model quit doing this like stupid high quantity le scale that way back what if they just changed the name instead of calling it limited edition they call it something else personally i wish they wouldn't call it limited because that sounds like it's the top tier option and it's not the ce is so i just think it's really confusing that they chose when they started to not go with what everyone else like everyone else le is their top model you would think a collector's edition might be i'm okay with the top model being collector's edition i'm not okay with the middle model being the le i think they could have flipped it collectors like most collectors are going to want this middle model but i'm not asking them to do pro premium le but um i just but i don't know if they sell out of the collectors either chicago gaming does ce for their Classic Edition, which is their lowest tier option. Classic Edition, yeah. You see, it all just cannibalizes each other. It's like a little brain- It feels like there is a threshold between 9,000 and 12,000 that these CEs even have a harder time selling out than the LEs. And that's the other factor. That's that monetary sweet spot.
    54:31
    And that it's conceivable that even for their top tier, even with the quantity, like the 250 or I don't know how many Wonka CEs there were. Do you know? Wonka CEs, I thought there was like 500 or 750. Just at the price point that it is. It was similar to a Stern? Yeah, but at the production price. There are thousands more. I don't know on the CEs if there is.
    54:58
    I meant there are thousands more dollars than a Stern LE. Yeah, 3,500 to be exact. Yeah, and I think that makes a big difference because people are – the thing in pinball is a lot of people don't keep the games forever. They end up wanting to flip them, and so you have a depreciation issue. That's the big one right there. And most pinball machines at this point – we're past the days of like Tron LE where other than a really weird thing happens like when JJP didn't produce as many pirates as they originally planned to. Most of the time, all these games depreciate at this stage, as they should. But that's not how LEs are supposed to work. LEs are actually supposed to appreciate in most industries that I've seen. Correct.
    55:42
    And we don't know if they won't. You're not a collector in that usual sense where it's like, hey, I've owned this pen for 10 years, and now it's gone up in value. Yeah, but that's difficult. That's difficult because the collectability is skewed because of technology. It's hard to make limited edition a piece of technology that is ever-changing and always evolving. It will always feel dated is what I mean. Yeah, but I mean that's true in other industries. Like limited run cars, just because they're not the latest tech anymore, are still worth more than they sold for.
    56:19
    That's a good analogy. What about video games? Do they sell any LE stuff? They try to do certain like collector edition style things. And it doesn't uphold, does it? I mean because the game is the game. That's like the metal case and the – it's cases and figurines and things like that. And I – honestly, I don't know if they go up in value or not because I've never bought one. Maybe some of the Mario stuff. I think on the video game side though, understand that it's not like – it's not a real limit. They say it's a limit and it's 100,000. That's right. It's just like – because there's so many gamers. Yeah. It's like – it just doesn't – they choose not to let it work the same. So we're talking about Guns N' Roses. Why aren't we talking about Toy Story? because here recently... Toy Story is after Guns N' Roses. Everyone knows that. I was chuckling, but we have heard a lot of rumors as of late from some pinball media and from hobbyists on forums that maybe I'm hearing Toy Story is getting swapped. Why? Even Ken Rudberg was talking about it. People are talking about with the times, and right now Toy Story makes more sense. Maybe Pat Lawler, who's rumored to be doing a Toy Story.
    57:28
    Has something happened with Guns N' Roses? Did they do something controversial? That's what the other rumors were. Like maybe, just maybe something was delayed on Guns N' Roses and they swapped them. That's what a lot of people are talking about. But – I don't believe it. Yeah, I'm with you. I'm here to tell you, listener, listen to us. You're going to get Guns N' Roses next. Yeah. I'm not hearing anything else. I haven't heard anything along those lines. And quite frankly, if there was a time to have done Toy Story, it would have been to swap it with Wonka and have done it when the movie was timely, the newest movie was coming out. If you give yourself time and day to listen to those rumors, at this point I'm telling you, listen to us, trust us. They are wasting their time. Don't trust us. You're wasted? Eh. Okay, then fine. You're wasted. Don't trust us. I'm smelling something, though. What'd you eat? I had an ice cream sandwich. Studio office is small with you in it. Dairy not settle well with you? I'm smelling some teasers coming from Jersey Jack Pinball. If I were to ask you what type of ice cream would you be, would you say Twizzlers? Because you really don't follow the rules on things that you say. I love that question. I would be, what type of ice cream? Are we talking about frozen treats or does it have to have an ice cream base? I thought I said ice cream, but, you know. I didn't know the fucking arachnid insect argument here. You took biology in grad school.
    58:49
    I'm going to take, now, I'm going to be tricky here. I would be a caramel milkshake. It is ice cream base, so you can say it's not. That's fine. But a milkshake is not edible like an ice cream. I'd go caramel milkshake. How is it not edible? Because it's still very much a base taste, but you get a little flair in there too. And everybody knows that caramel is better tasting than a chocolate or a vanilla or a fruit. Caramel is where it's at.
    59:18
    What would you be? Rocky Road? Strawberry. Yeah, you do like a strawberry. Strawberry. Okay. Sorry I asked. All right. So teasers. Little the news. Teasers. Yeah, teasers I think are coming from Jersey Jack. I think they heard from Stern and they're like, all right, damn it. They teased some tech stuff a while, months ago now. Maybe they're just announced the whole damn thing. Who knows? I need answers. Well, we finally got answers from Chicago Gaming Company. Sweet Jesus, Mother Mary. So back in October, they announced that Medieval Madness was coming back out as a run. They were going to do Royals, Special Editions, and Classic Editions. They also announced accessory kits that they were going to sell to play nice with the original Medieval Madness remake runs years back. So you could buy a topper accessory. You could buy an RGB lighting accessory, like you see on the newer Medieval Madness Specials and Royals. You can buy an extended display, the XL display now, with the speaker lights. They were going to do that. They were supposed to come out in January, February. I can report here that they are now shipping some of them. We got our first shipment of Medieval Madness accessory kits.
    60:33
    Whew. Glad they made it. One of my customers was like, I was like, hey, ready for your payment? Because he's ready to go out. He was like, Zach, no. Like, no, I'm not interested in that anymore. I'm like, okay. You think Deep Root's going to have toppers?
    60:49
    Not right away, no. Oh! Bobby Pinball. You better say it's not so. If Bobby Pinball doesn't have a topper at release next time I see him, I will awkwardly hug him. And that is a promise.
    61:04
    Long, warm hug, too. In this time of COVID, though, it's highly inappropriate. He's going to sue me.
    61:12
    So, Zach, I'm getting concerned that now with Jersey Jack and Stern Pinball and Deep Root Pinball, maybe no one will buy anything in September because they'll be paralyzed from choice. We do have a lot of inventory right now. What's that psychological term for people that can't decide something because they have too many choices? There's a thing. Oh, there is a thing. What's it called? It's a social psychology thing.
    61:34
    Overchoice. Yes. I fear for the hobbyists and those that suffer from overchoice. Now, I'm going to edit all of this out, listener. So I'm giving this away, but I didn't know that. I should have known that.
    61:51
    Failed. I don't know if Deep Root's going to fail or not. They recently announced on social media a post that says, Hmm, an update to DeepRootPinball.com. Maybe the first of four to come? The five updates of Deep Root.
    62:09
    It has a picture of a spotlight looking at groundbreaking, and then a nine in blue with a dot, a space in between, and then a lowercase d with a dot. Yes, I did see this on the Facebook. It's a pretty shitty clue.
    62:27
    I... It won't tell anything. Yeah, well, I've noticed a lot of people do that, though. They give you these hints, and they're very much designed to not help. I like the artwork on Raza Monster House, but I don't know what 9D means. Some people think 9 is for September, because it's the ninth month. So maybe they'll start filling in the in-between on a day of... Yeah, I've wondered if that's supposed to be filled in on the... You know, the same line will have more and more stuff or... We'll get more letters and numbers? Yeah, I mean, I just don't... Who knows? I try not to overthink things like that. They're designed to get you to overthink them, so I tend not to spend much time with them. We're ready, Bobby Pinball. Are you? I go BP now. Hey, BP!
    63:13
    I talk to them regularly, you know. I'm still curious about what their distribution arrangement will be. I am as well. You have space for them now that you don't represent Multimorphic. Oh, he's had to bring it up. Rub salt in the wound. What? I don't know if you chose or he chose, actually. He didn't put thrall. It's mutually agreed upon. Now, update. I do need to go change all the different... Yeah, you got to edit all the... That's why I figured you wouldn't have done it. Thanks, Jerry. To change those back. I actually went to the Morphimorphic website, but I didn't see where they ever list anywhere who the distributors are. Right, because they sell direct. It's hard to compete against the company. No, Jerry asked. I don't think he did this to other distributors. Not that I'm being singled out. But he has been asking about why we haven't been selling Multimorphics lately.
    64:17
    And I gave him an answer that I won't repeat here. But it was, I think, a logical, good, respectful answer. And we didn't see eye to eye on me not buying a ton of these things to inventory. So he requested that we no longer sell his products.
    64:36
    That makes sense. Does it? I don't know. It's kind of weird to me. I was like, well, what am I hurting? It's available if people want to buy it from me. I'm not, I don't, it's weird to me, but I don't know. He's taking a strong take here, and I don't know if it's just with me or other distributors, but we're no longer selling Multimorphic. The issue that I had was, all right, Jerry, if a customer orders a pin, what's the turnaround time? Any guess as to what that might be, Dennis? well if i were to see what i know others have done like uh spooky with their distributors and i don't know if this is true with the other companies you happen to work with but there's like like allotments that go to everyone so you i mean if there was a game and there was a run you would have like people wouldn't be at the back of the line if they went to the distributor and i remember that was an issue why i brought up spooky was that when rick and morty some people actually went to a distributor instead of going to the spooky website and they got relatively low numbers but in terms of Multimorphic I'm going to guess it's probably not the model so I imagine that if you were to order one if I remember what I've seen online because I do follow Multimorphic's page you might have a multi-month wait to get a game if you were to order one let's see what you did there yeah it's about three months so I was like Jerry I don't know how I can inventory these games when you get them three months out. Three months is a long wait, so it sounds like they're backlogged through their direct sales. Yeah, and I guess I don't know if Heist is selling well or not. I assume it's selling better than their other games. I've seen the most positive buzz about Heist versus any other game. I don't know. It was upsetting, honestly, personally. Really? I felt rejected. Yeah, I'm not going to lie. I want to be able to give our customers everything they want and need. It just so happens that not a lot of them are wanting or needing a Multimorphic, and that's unfortunate for us. But I was telling Jerry, we're not at shows. We can't show these things off. Like, I'm not so sure it's a flipping out thing, but his perception maybe is that it was. I don't know. It sucks. I'm sorry, customers, that I can't do the multi-morphics. We can still find a way I'll get them through a dealer or something for you, but that kind of hurts, but you'll have that. But the good news, Dennis, is that when one leaves, another comes. Deeper? No, we just, a little teaser here, We just signed on to sell two more manufacturer's products that are heavily, heavily sold and played. So more details on that upcoming.
    67:18
    Maybe it is Deep Root. That'd be interesting. I still really curious Not about Raza but I curious about the other games Well each and every week you show this love and curiosity for Pimba Market Trends Hit it.
    67:40
    No, that's the mystery. No, not the sad truck. This is the problem with sound boards. I need to get the, no. This is the part where I need to explain how you were so sad when we were going to start recording because your whole sound thing wasn't working. And this is really, in a way, my fault. And I blame myself. Next week, I should have them programmed. Training up this week is one of my favorite games ever made. It's by Jersey Jack Pinball. You guessed it. It's The Hobbit. Can I just train this up every week? I should be allowed to. Do what you want with your made-up signal. Yeah, The Hobbit is training up this week because if you've looked at the secondary market on The Hobbit, you're seeing a lot of mods coming up now to make this packed game even more packed. You're also seeing this. None on the secondary market right now on Pennside are listed in the sixes.
    68:35
    That is objectively a monetary trend. How about it? Chalk it up. We got $7,000 to $7,500 for a Hobbit on the secondary market. And these games are getting older. Also, there's more plays being put on them, so that's not a factor here. These games are becoming more and more popular, more and more appreciated, and it's about damn time. I'm just waiting for the Elvin Bow edition to come out. Is that the edition you'd go for?
    69:07
    Well, I have to see how much glitter is embedded into the play field. If I could get a Hobbit with him, oh, I'd get rid of the one I got to get that.
    69:16
    Mirko, you hear that? trending down this week unfortunately is one that i don't like reporting on but numbers don't lie here at the pinball show and i only report the facts and that is this teenage mutant ninja turtles le edition taking a bit of a dip i heard someone or read some you know i guess i read it that pinball or excuse me tmnts are popping up for sale relatively quick and just in general. And I didn't see a lot of feedback other than some people are finding the game too hard. You know what? That's what I've been telling people. It's kind of mean. But that's what keeps me coming back. I've been playing a lot more Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles as of late. But yeah, it's tough to find my shots on that layout for some reason. It's like a more difficult shooting Tron.
    70:08
    Really. Yeah, it kind of is. But yeah, I've seen on the secondary market, pros are fine. They're holding price. You see premiums holding price is fine. They're just now shipping out and stuff. But the LEs have taken a bit of a dip. Also, if you look on the Pennside Top 100 list, the title altogether has taken a dip down to number 13. Started off hot, dropped. That's true for everything, though. It does, but this is relatively quick for something that has been misheralded to drop to number 13. Just another little small factor. It always seems like the owners come in and immediately rating pump whatever they spent thousands of dollars on, and then the people that don't like the game or like them. That don't like the people that buy the game. Or the company come in and then they deflate it, and then eventually it stabilizes at some value. Big steamer right on top of it. So TMNT, LE are now in the secondary market lower than what they are new. And we know that games like Keith Elwin's games, they don't do that. Keith Elwin's Iron Maiden is turning up this week. Iron Maiden LE, you're hearing it here, sells more on the secondary market, listener, than it was brand new in the box. That is a trend. That is a phenomenon that I think is best explained by Keith Elwin and his team over there. I mean, look at Jurassic Park LE. You're not going to find one on the secondary market under 9,000. You're not going to do it. They're going up. So if this is a Keith Elwin game, And the CERN's about to announce their third cornerstone of 2020. Watch out, folks. Maybe that's why my interested list is full for the Untitled Avengers LE. But for now, it is training down for TMNT LE. It's not a big hit. But I've seen them for $8,800 for that LE. That just came out. And, Dennis, I'm going to give you a choice. You want to go, you're feeling little deals of the week next, little deals of the what, the whole? What do you want next? We could just end the deal part Skip that part Okay, so I'm hearing that you're wanting a little Pinball show presents Topper Talk Sub-segment of Pinball Market Trans Topper Talk this week We've got a pinsider by the name of Garrett's Winning I think Garrett's really winning I don't care Love toppers Garrett Bear on Pennside found in an old TMNT code, the old code, he looked and found a topper setting. And you know what that topper setting said? Goat mode.
    72:47
    No. See, I need that button too. Boom. Goat. It said that there was a setting for a topper eye. What does that mean, listener? Dennis? If you can control an eye, Topper Eye, sounds like a motorized feature. What is featured eye-wise on Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles theme?
    73:13
    Technodrome! Maybe we're going to get a Technodrome Topper for TMNT. I've been hearing rumblings that TMNT Topper is where it's at, y'all.
    73:28
    So maybe, just maybe, that's what we're talking about here on Tauba Tauba. That doesn't excite you at all? No. Techno drill? Not at all. Could be a mechanical topper with a rotating eye? It could be. It could also just have a light shim. And if you want to save a little money, let's transition over to the deals of the week. Buy, buy, buy! Deal of the week this week is found in Old Saybrook, Connecticut by Frank Mack. Frank Mack a lot of times has really nice pins and he has good prices on his pins. This is no exception. He's selling a Stranger Things LE. We've seen some dips in the LE prices, but this one took one hell of a dip. It is now in the sevens. $79.99. Oh, oh. Don't give this guy $8,000, you guys. Don't do it. Look, it came out August 23rd, right? It's now the 31st or is it the 1st? I don't know how many days are in August. It's been sitting for a week. Don't pay his price. It says Oboe. So for $79.99, it also comes with the UV light kit installed. It's like a $300 mod, and it's only got 50 plays. It's brand new. Buy, buy, buy! I'd come in at, you know what? I'd lowball him. Sorry, Frankie. I'd lowball him at $7,500 cash. Take it. That's a hell of a deal of the week. Buy, buy, buy! Bye-bye-bye. Indeed.
    75:00
    And rounding out the Pitmop Market Trends is deals of the... What the creasel? You used you as a verb there.
    75:10
    Are you okay with me using you as a verb? The creasel? Yeah, do what you want. This is a Jason Fowler thing. A verb. You get mad at him, not me. Love you, Fowler. What did I used to call Fowler? Jay Fizzle you drove him out of the hobby thanks to your cribs no no he got positive feedback on the cribs we couldn't get rid of Haper yet though Haper dug in still the what the fuck this week is out of Portsmouth, Virginia and I've got to say I've got to watch this guy's Portsmouth because it's Wood Chee Wood CH 23707 all the way circle around woodchopper woodchipper woodchopper 23707 is selling a knockout one of my top three favorite EM's knockout Bally 1975 I looked at the price and it said $5,000 and I thought there is no EM that hasn't been dipped in chrome that's worth $5,000 would you agree Dennis that's not true really there are certain titles, especially certain rare ones that probably do come in. Cinegrade 37? I don't think that gets that high unless it's restored. But it wouldn't need to be chromed. Okay. I don't know. Are there any high-end EM collectors out there that are like, I will be chroming out my EM or my wood rail? Oh, high-end and by that you mean to tart it up. Oh, is that what you... Tarty? Well, I mean, you're basically taking the original concept and then making it look better, yeah. By bedazzling it. Since when is Chrome bedazzling? It's a stretch. The game didn't come with Chrome originally. I'm not putting fucking rhinestones on it. It's like getting the Reese Reels Special Edition.
    77:06
    Embedded rubies. No. I'll give you the bedazzles. JJP's sparkly on the play field. Kind of bedazzly. So what pin was this? This is a knockout. One of my favorite EMs ever. Bally's knockout, 1975. They usually go for about $800 to $1,000. Nice. Five grand. And that's not even the what the fuck moment here. That made me look. But in the item description, there are no pictures, and it simply says, I'm not dealing with you assholes anymore.
    77:39
    What do you like about this game? Knockout? Yeah, I'm looking at it now. I don't think I've ever played it. Oh, man, you're missing out. Knockout is fantastic. Fantastic. I love the spinners. It's like an underappreciated Grand Prix. And I like the funnel in the middle with that saucer. The kick-out saucer, okay. Love that. It is just a really fun game. I like it. Smooth, feels good. It's that bally feel with the EM, so feels great. Spinners are juicy. Love it.
    78:12
    That's an underappreciated. If you guys want a good, no, hate knockout because I still need one. hate knockout it's overrated stupid forget i said anything close that one out fast that's what i was gonna say when you were talking about the guns and roses stuff and this being jersey jack's uh like a departure from the family friendly i thought well yeah we talked about it a couple weeks ago it's the soft reboot right this is a different company is it is it if toy story's next after guns and roses yeah where did me dennis when the road's rough ahead and you're miles and miles from your nice warm bed you can remember what your old pal zach said you got a friend in me anytime any day i'm a pager beep beep away my friend Do you have a pager before?
    79:15
    I had a pager very briefly. Brief? For three years. I love how three years is brief. Did people send you messages? Like, were you ever sexting on your beeper? No, I didn't have one of those messages, pagers.
    79:31
    Like, hot chicks text you? Like, once you're sexy ass now? Do you remember, pagers? Yeah. We're probably like all of two years old. No, you could flip over the thing and the alphanumeric and spell things. That was a calculator. I could just see it. Well, you could do that on beepers, too. I could see a hot girl being like, want din-din-dong.
    79:55
    You're like, sorry, chess team. I've got to go. I just imagine you with the Genco jeans, the big baggy jeans. That would be correct. Your wife beater shirt. That would be correct. You're on it. Yes, correct. And you got like four or five pagers while you were dealing iPhones. Well, I was dealing iPhones more as an adult. This was middle school. No, man. Quarter world chinkos. You're dealing your basketball cards. I had my spouse beater. I'll hook you up. I had the Figueroa chain.
    80:30
    I hooked you up, bro. Yeah. Spiked hair. You had your keys on the chain. Never had that. Wallet to the chain. Never had that. No, because then that would, I was going more urban, and that was representing more alternative grungy. And the last thing, ladies and gentlemen, that I will ever be is grungy or gritty. Ironed your hair every morning. I did have that wet look gel in there, though. Hey, look, I got the chicks, man. I got the chicks. That's where I first started swooning my current wife. My current wife, like I've been married before. Let's close out this son of a bitch.
    81:13
    Dennis, if people want to get a hold of us, they can go to the pinballnetworkatgmail.com and send us a nice email. Refrain from sending sack pics. I don't want any of that stuff, right? I saw you had an email from someone. They started very negative, and you actually kept talking to them, and they seemed to get a lot calmer.
    81:33
    What does that say about me, Din Din? I don't know. I think they wanted you to try to do better or try harder. I think that was the moral. I think they actually said that pretty bluntly, too. Yeah, it was pretty blunt. I talked them off of the cancellation cliff, if you will. I think they're a fan now. Yeah, that's a big leap. We got a friend in them.
    81:56
    They used to hate us, too. Where can people find you, Dennis, besides the Femal Network? You can always email eclecticgamerspodcast at gmail.com or over at facebook.com slash eclecticgamerspodcast and send a message. Oh, nice. That's the other podcast I do. Yeah, and if you love Dennis and think he is one of the most prolific pinball media in the last decade, which is actually correct, then submit a review for us because usually our reviews consist of Dennis is awesome. I worship him. Less Zach. Joe, like I'm going to forget that. I'm never going to forget that. Look. Less many. If you're going to rip on me, give me more than two stars. There was a person on Pinside who, after you had Craig Bobby on, was like, please never have Dennis back and have Craig do it. Dennis is negative. That's Craig Bobby's wife. Like, what do you want? But now Craig doesn't even – look at him. He can't even consistently do a correspondent segment. He's trying to find himself in the woods. He's like, what? I haven't heard his podcast yet. What host do I need to be? He did have a podcast out this last week. the midweek with Craig Bobby. He's determining what first new inbox he's going to purchase. So listen to that. Probably Avengers because it's an L one. There, I solved the mystery. Well, that might be on part three of this series that he's running with. How long is it going? I don't know. We'll see. If it turns bad, it's going to cancel. My rumors are I'm hearing that Silver Ball Chronicles can't even cover less than a decade of just Bally art in one episode. They're going to do at least two. I don't know about that. Come on. I'm like, maybe I need to look at their show. You know, I don't meddle in the creative process of others. Of course. Maybe I should look at the show notes and do some editing because, I mean, come on, just the art. In fact, I would only cover five years of Bally. Wow, them some strong words. You got any shit talking to the final round, guys?
    83:49
    Get some more sponsors. We used to have, like, the best sponsors, and now they're all just like, here, we're just going to have kids on the show. Oh, man. They did have a show this last week. I haven't heard it yet. Oh, you'll like it. They had youngins on, so that's what my reference was. Yep, you'll like it. That round's pretty good. I do enjoy listening to it. Don't tell Jeff and Martin that, though. People are loving the TPM podcasts. Well, most of them. I mean, we lead the pack, right? Hopefully, we still lead the pack.
    84:17
    In popularity, I don't know. Our reviews are fairly mixed. Well. What does Aunt May say? with great responsibility comes great power something like that yeah that's yeah that's exactly what aunt may said or uncle sam or whatever the hell his name is i'm just picturing dwight right now web slinging an led in my eye i thought dwight was coming on to do some game i don't know where he's at it's like he's coding a game or something he was in your chat when you were revealing all the dark secrets of avengers i know i saw that he's keeping an eye on you If you want to keep an eye on me, you can email me at sdtmpinball at gmail.com in addition to the Pinball Network. You can support us there by watching and subscribing and following the video series. As well as, you know what, I'm going to give my own plug to Flippin' Out Pinball. We do a stream that I'm putting some more work into, and we're doing some video stuff, too, that I'm pulling for the Flippin' Out YouTube. So follow and subscribe there. And if you're ready to buy a brand new unannounced, unofficial video adapter or a Vengeance Pinball machine, I've got to watch out what I say now. You can contact us at Flippin' Out Pinball. Escaleras have been shit. I should have trended up Escaleras. Those damn things. It's like people are just now finding out about them. They're great as long as you don't throw them down the stairs and then not tell anyone that you did it. Yeah. Don't think it's the Jetsons Rosie. I'll get it for you, sir. And just pull it up and down the stairs. You've still got to hold on to the damn thing. But if you're interested in any of that stuff, you can contact us by emailing Zach, Z-A-C-H, at fliptheletterinoutpinball.com. That's Zach at flippinoutpinball.com. Or go to our website, flippinoutpinball.com. You can make purchases there. Or text me, message me, call me. Texting is fastest. 8-1-2-4-5-7-9-7-11. Could they engineer an Escalera to go up the stairs by itself and vacuum while it does it? We call it the Escatara. they engineered grandma creasel to go up the same way i picture that like the the chair have you seen those things the chairs that go up up the stairs yeah i've seen i mean like in movies i've seen them do they call it that stair chair i don't do people still get that installed or they just like i should just live on a one level house living in a mansion when they can't walk stairs anymore have you ever rode one please tell me yes damn it no would you i've i've only no well i mean if i if i couldn't get up the stairs well i know that don't make it weird i'm not i'm not prideful about it it's just but it's it's it's so much slower than walking the stairs and time is yeah but what's more fun burning calves or i want a round staircase too to do that it's like whoa I hate round staircases. Spirals. I do when you're trying to take pinball machines down. Especially the really tight spirals. Yeah, we listed what was on TPN last week. Coming up this week, where in the hell are the Puppet Pals? That might have just been trolling at this point. I haven't confirmed this. I heard they did a segment or something for a super awesome pinball show. Are you shitting me? No, I saw them post something on the Facebook about it. They signed a contract, damn it. In blood.
    87:35
    In fluff. Moppy, your little thready ass is mine. Dennis, get the wood chipper. I'm going to give a big plug. You guys have got to go listen and watch. Marv Loco on YouTube also does a pinball podcast. It's very meta. It's a pinball podcast, but it's visual, and it's on YouTube. It's called A Pinball Podcast. It's pretty simple, right? Jeff Rivera right now is like, you son of a bitches. But you have to go watch this because yesterday he dropped an interview with moi. and not only any interview. This is one of the best just pinball conversations that I've had since one of you and I's back and forths. But we cover everything, Dennis. We cover manufacturing. We cover distribution. We cover competition, pinball. And you may be surprised by some of the arguments that are made in that show. It's going to stir a lot of discussion, that one episode, you've got to go listen to it right after this show. After you review our show on the DV website or the iTunes, or your chance to win a brand new what, Dennis? A brand new TMNT banner. Boom. Man. You sure you don't want to flip it out and sponsor you?
    88:55
    No. I know you don't. It wouldn't help you much anyway. Let's be frank. I don't care at this point. I just like being affiliated. And also check out my stream. I'm going to try to do maybe a stream every week. And as soon as I hear some information that is authorized from Stern, you're going to see probably another stream from me. So flipping out pinball on Twitch for that. For Dennis Creasel, I'm Zach Minney. Just remember to not use your escalera without a human being behind it.
    89:24
    And always practice safe pinball, listeners. And if you really think a spider is not an insect, don't be one of those people. Up! So long, everybody. You're going to see it's our destiny.
    89:38
    You've got a friend in me.