Journalist Tool

Kineticist

  • HDashboard
  • IItems
  • ↓Ingest
  • SSources
  • KBeats
  • BBriefs
  • RIntel
  • QSearch
  • NName Review
  • +Health

v0.1.0

← Back to items

Ep 78: Making Greatness with Ed Robertson

LoserKid Pinball Podcast·podcast_episode·54m 26s·analyzed·Feb 2, 2022
View original
Export .md

Analysis

claude-haiku-4-5-20251001 · $0.029

TL;DR

Ed Robertson details creative process behind Rush pinball machine and honors late designer Lyman Sheets.

Summary

Ed Robertson of Barenaked Ladies discusses his creative partnership with Stern Pinball on the Rush pinball machine, detailing his involvement from initial concept through final design. The episode opens with a tribute to Lyman Sheets, the late pinball designer, and explores how Ed bridged the music and pinball worlds to create a game that transcends hardcore fan appeal. Ed explains his design philosophy, the process of working with Rush members Geddy Lee and Alex Lifeson on voice work and song selection, and his collaboration with designer John Borg and programmers Tim Sexton and Raymond Davidson.

Key Claims

  • Rush pinball machine features two hours of music including full first side of 2112, Cygnus X-1 Book 1 and Book 2

    high confidence · Ed Robertson, describing game content in direct interview

  • Geddy Lee specifically requested La Villa Strangiato over YYZ after band members each selected 20 songs and found 15 in common

    high confidence · Ed Robertson explaining song selection process via email discussions with band members

  • Ed Robertson voices the Federation Pilot character on the Rush machine, using Terry Brown's original Neil Peart vocal settings

    high confidence · Ed Robertson describing voice recording session with producer Terry Brown and in-game role

  • John Borg had unusual luxury of time to design Rush due to COVID shutdowns, allowing extensive layout tweaking

    high confidence · Ed Robertson comparing Rush development timeline to typical Stern compressed schedules

  • Ed Robertson has not yet physically played the Rush machine as of the podcast recording, though he has been involved in every creative decision

    high confidence · Ed Robertson stating 'I'm flying to Chicago Friday and meeting John at the factory' and 'I have not touched the game'

  • Rush and Geddy Lee required Ed Robertson's involvement as creative director as a condition of licensing the machine to Stern

    high confidence · Jody Dankberg statement relayed by Ed: 'Rush wants to do this pin but they're insisting that you kind of be the quarterback and creative direct the thing'

  • Lyman Sheets was an enormous Rush fan who repeatedly encouraged Ed to 'make it awesome'

    high confidence · Ed Robertson: 'Even after he left Stern, he just kept texting me, you got to make it awesome, man'

Notable Quotes

  • “Lyman and I spoke pretty regularly, and we actually spoke at length about his mental health. And I tried to be a resource to Lyman.”

    Ed Robertson @ early in episode — Personal tribute to Lyman Sheets revealing depth of their relationship and mental health discussions

  • “I never really feel like I'm in a deep hole but it's really wide... feels like a crater that's only it's only up to my knees but it kind of goes to the horizon sometimes.”

    Ed Robertson @ Lyman tribute section — Powerful metaphor for depression, demonstrates vulnerability and lived experience with mental health

  • “The intensity that he's given so many pinball fans, the variety of emotions from humor to stress to euphoria, he has been the architect of so much joy for so many people.”

    Ed Robertson @ Lyman tribute — Articulates Lyman's creative legacy and emotional impact on pinball community

  • “I wouldn't put a Metallica record on ever, but it's one of my favorite pinball machines. It's one of my top three games of all time.”

    Ed Robertson @ discussing game design philosophy — Core design principle: great pinball machines transcend band/license appeal

  • “I wanted the game to beat you up and frustrate you... you'll often have a repeatable ramp shot or an easy combo you can make but I want the game to beat you up and frustrate you.”

    Ed Robertson @ describing design goals with John Borg — Explicit difficulty and player challenge philosophy

  • “They're not pinball guys... Getty said, no, La Villa Strangiato is a way better song.”

    Ed Robertson @ song selection discussion — Shows band's engagement with creative decisions despite lack of pinball expertise

  • “It might be Borg's best layout, calling that one early.”

    Ed Robertson @ code and gameplay assessment — High praise for John Borg's design from someone familiar with his full catalog

  • “If you try to reinvent the wheel too much you just end up with a brick fest... it's about combining ideas that work.”

Entities

Ed RobertsonpersonJosh RooppersonScott LarsonpersonLyman SheetspersonGeddy LeepersonAlex LifesonpersonJohn BorgpersonTim Sexton

Signals

  • ?

    design_innovation: Rush pinball features unprecedented amount of music (two hours) including full album sides, requiring extensive audio/video data management and editing decisions

    high · Ed Robertson: 'two hours of music because we got the full first side of 2112, Cygnus X-1, Book 1 and Book 2. It's insane how much music is in this game. Unprecedented, I think.'

  • ?

    design_philosophy: Rush machine intentionally designed to appeal beyond hardcore Rush fans by prioritizing pinball mechanics and playability over theme dependency

    high · Ed Robertson: 'I wanted to do what Stern did well with Metallica and AC/DC and Iron Maiden... I want to make a great pinball machine that even if you're not a Rush nerd like me, you're going to want to play this game'

  • ?

    code_update: Rush pinball launched with early code containing substantial design roadmap, with additional modes and features planned for future updates

    high · Ed Robertson: 'the game launched with so much to do. And it just shows you a roadmap of where they're going. It's very exciting.'

  • ?

    manufacturing_signal: Limited Edition Rush machines in production and signing process, with expected line production imminent during podcast timeframe

    high · Ed Robertson: 'I'm flying to Chicago Friday and meeting John at the factory. And fingers crossed, LEs will be hitting the line.'

  • ?

    licensing_signal: Rush band required Ed Robertson's involvement as creative director as a condition of licensing agreement with Stern

    high · Jody Dankberg quote: 'Rush wants to do this pin but they're insisting that you kind of be the quarterback and creative direct the thing... their main stipulation on doing the licensing'

Transcript

groq_whisper · $0.163

0:00
thanks for tuning into the loser kid pinball podcast we are on episode 78 you are with josh roop along with my co-captain as always scott larson and scott i i heard you got a new pinball i did i just got a mandalorian premium that i got delivered yesterday i it's sitting in my frozen garage out there with my iron maiden and beetles which is too cold to go outside and play but uh and i'm super excited because i saw the pictures of the rush le uh they're signing those cards and so my brush le should be on the way so i am super excited about that nice so if you need to order one uh check out zach and nicole mini flipping out pinball they are always good to hook you up and if you have that game that you're looking for whether or not it's in the future or something that they could possibly obtain through a trade, reach out to them, let them know, and they'll be able to hook you up. Definitely. So speaking of Rush, I know, Scott, you like Rush, and you dared me to find someone that likes Rush better than you. And so I scoured the internet. I may have called in a couple favors, but I think I found someone a bigger fan than you. You ready for this? I am ready. Bring it on. So Mr. Canadian Rock and Roll Hall of Famer, Ed Robertson, is joining us today. How are you doing, Ed? Good to be here, guys. Thanks for having me. So, Ed, before we get into any of this, this is our first episode since we heard about Lyman's passing. And we've talked about it on the show before. We've talked about the devastating effects of mental health. And a lot of people don't they don't want to talk about it because people feel either embarrassed about it or they feel social stigma. And we first off, we want everybody to know that you're welcome at our table and we we are inclusive to all.
2:02
And, you know, your brain is just like any other part of your body. So if you need help with with your liver, your heart, you're going to go get help. And talking about things that are affecting your mental health are just as important, if not more so, because usually people suffer in silence. And so we do want to respect Lyman, respect his memory. We're going to talk about more his influence on pinball. But we want to reach out to Ed and say any Lyman memories or any Lyman thoughts that he had. Well, I'm still struggling with Lyman's passing. Lyman and I spoke pretty regularly, and we actually spoke at length about his mental health. And I tried to be a resource to Lyman. So I spent an awful long time after Lyman committed suicide worried that I hadn't done enough to let him know how appreciated he was and how loved he was, and I'm sure a lot of his friends are having those fears right now.

Ed Robertson @ addressing layout similarity criticism — Design philosophy on iterating existing mechanics vs. pure innovation

person
Raymond Davidsonperson
Jody Dankbergperson
Terry Brownperson
Penny Sheetsperson
Keith Elwinperson
Zach Sharpeperson
Nicoleperson
Gary Sternperson
Stern Pinballcompany
Rushorganization
Rush pinball machinegame
Barenaked Ladiesorganization
  • ?

    gameplay_signal: Rush layout emphasizes challenging, precision shots with deceptive positioning on flippers, following John Borg's design philosophy of combining fast repeatable shots with brutal difficult shots

    high · Ed Robertson: 'John has been doing very successfully... refining ideas that he likes... I want the game to beat you up and frustrate you... some fast shots some fast returns to flippers but also super brutal dangerous shots that are necessary to do well'

  • ?

    personnel_signal: John Borg, Tim Sexton, and Raymond Davidson collaborated extensively on Rush machine with unusual development timeline allowing creative depth

    high · Ed Robertson: 'because of the COVID shutdowns and lockdowns, Borg had time to really play with this layout... Tim and Raymond really have poured over the lyrics and watched videos and watched documentaries'

  • ?

    design_innovation: Rush machine features extensive voice work from band members and Ed Robertson as Federation Pilot, using historical production techniques to match original album aesthetics

    high · Ed Robertson describing Federation Pilot role: 'we were able to get in touch with terry brown who produced all those early rush albums and get the actual settings he used on neil's voice'

  • ?

    community_signal: Community discussion of layout similarities to other Borg designs, with industry perspective that mechanical iteration and refinement is standard practice rather than derivative design

    medium · Ed Robertson: 'I saw a lot of chatter about similarities... it kind of frustrates me because... what john has been doing... is refining ideas that he likes and reimagining shots'

  • ~

    sentiment_shift: Lyman Sheets' suicide prompts community reflection on designer legacy, creative output as emotional impact, and unmet potential despite external recognition

    high · Ed Robertson: 'how could this guy who gave so much to so many people... how could he not feel the intensity of that love... He was such a gentleman. He was always open to listen'

    • 3:21
    It's been really hard to reconcile, and it's, you know, I've battled depression myself for many, many years. I've never been at that intense end of the struggle but I've spoken to a therapist regularly for almost two decades definitely the last decade on a weekly basis almost as my schedule permits and I've explained to a lot of friends I never really feel like I'm in a deep hole but it's really wide um you know it feels like a a crater that's only it's only up to my knees but it kind of goes to the horizon sometimes you know and uh it's just like a background uh depression um and i i really wish we were at a place where there wasn't a stigma attached to talking about mental illness but there clearly is. And people are ashamed when they're struggling. And, you know, Lyman was so loved and so respected and so revered in this community, but he was so hard on himself.
    4:49
    And it didn't matter what game I brought up to Lyman. The first thing he always talked about was what disappointed him about it, you know, and what he wished he could have done better. And I'm saying, Lyman, this is a perfect game. Like, you know, talking to him about Walking Dead and saying, like, I think it's perfect. Like, I love it so much. I think Horde might be the greatest moment in all of pinball. I just love it. Um, and I explained to Lyman in so many ways that the, the intensity that he's given so many pinball fans, the, the variety of emotions from humor to stress to, uh, euphoria, you know, um, he has been the architect of so much joy for so many people. And I think that's why so many of us are struggling right now. Whether you knew Lyman personally or not, you're thinking, my gosh, how could this guy who gave so much to so many people and did so many things that pinball fans revere and rejoice over, how could he not feel the intensity of that? that love. Um, so it, it's been a real struggle and I would just reiterate what you were getting at. Um, if, if anyone out there is struggling, reach out, you're, you have people who care about you and, um, just don't give up on yourself. Um, it's, it's really scary when you see someone like Lyman succumb because we all hold him in such high esteem. So if you're struggling, reach out, reach out to a friend. If you don't have a friend to reach out to, reach out to a doctor, reach out to a coworker, reach out to somebody because the world is a better place with you in it. Definitely. I think we're all, all of us, like you said, even if we know him personally, or if it, I feel like one of the reasons, well, the main reason I got into this hobby was because of Lyman's Code. I mean, you find medieval madness and it's just something that draws you in. And you look at someone, like you said, so revered. I've never heard a bad thing about Lyman. He was such a gentleman. He was always open to listen to you and whatnot. And it just, it stinks because you do question, you know, hindsight's 2020. Could I have done something more? Is there something I could have done? And it's just, you know, give someone the opportunity to help if you are feeling at that state.
    7:38
    Yeah, it makes me think about Gattaca. If you haven't seen Gattaca, it's a great film, but he's talking. I don't want to give away the premise of it, but he's talking to his girlfriend at the time, and he says, this is the quote, they've got you looking so hard for any flaw that after a while, that's all you see.
    8:00
    Yeah. And people who are in deep depression, that's all they see about themselves yeah and uh my heart goes out to penny who is just one of the loveliest people on the planet and uh lyman's family and um yeah i think anybody who knew him will be struggling with this for a long time and the pinball world has lost an absolute titan an absolute legend who walked among us yeah everything he touched turned to gold yep yeah i agree so we will we will do a lyman retrospective in the future too this is this was more of a snapshot but uh we are going to awkwardly transition to what ed has been working on and it's near and dear to my heart is the rush pinball machine well it's not an awkward transition at all because Lyman was the biggest Rush fan. He loved the band. And even after he left Stern, he just kept texting me, you got to make it awesome, man. You got to make it awesome. You got to do justice to this band. They're the greatest band. And yeah, he was on me, riding me the whole time. So it was cool. That's no pressure at all, right? Yeah, no pressure at all. I said, you know, I know one way I could have been sure it was going to be amazing, Ryan.
    9:35
    So this game is fantastic. I got my hands on a pro last week. I got to play it. I enjoyed the depth of it. I enjoyed the call outs. It's a really fun game. I've got to know, though, I was listening to your Stern Insider interview, and Getty and Alex reached out to Jody and said, Hey, we want to do this as long as Ed's on board. So are you just known as the pinball guy in the music industry? Or is it like, is that your calling card? Like how, how does like, is that just your thing?
    10:05
    Yeah, I'm kind of known as the pinball nerd. Um, and yeah, it was, it was initially Getty reached out to me and said, hey, you know, we're being approached about doing a pinball machine. Can you help us make the decisions? And I said, yeah, I'd be happy to, you know, any questions you have. I said, if you guys want to come over and I'll show you what I've got and show you what to look out for, that sort of thing. And Geddy said, OK, well, let me get back to you. And then the next call I got was from Jody Dankberg who said so Rush wants to do this pin but they're insisting that you kind of be the quarterback and creative direct the thing um it's like their main stipulation on doing the licensing um and so I was flattered of course because I'm such a huge fan of those guys uh and it was a it was just a really cool opportunity for me to dive in I'm such a pinball fan. It was really cool to be involved from the initial, like, just from the discussion level all the way through layout, through concept, through artwork, every single aspect of it. It was a really cool insider's look. I mean, I understood the process fairly well because I've been pretty close with a lot of the guys at Stern for a long time. But it was really cool to be involved at every step.
    11:44
    So when someone says, I want you to make it awesome, that's a steep hill to climb. And that's like saying, hey, no pressure, but your next album, we want you to sell five million. been there yeah i've had that said to me yeah but okay so so that's the question like what is it that you know you have been very involved in pinball but what when someone says i want it to be awesome what do you do to make it awesome how does that work well part of my goal with this machine was to transcend the band uh because i you knew that rush fans were going to be interested in a rush pinball machine but i wanted to do what stern did so well with metallica and acdc and iron maiden the machines were were bigger than the bands like i wouldn't put a Metallica record on ever, but it's one of my favorite pinball machines, you know, and same with Iron Maiden. Like, you know, it's not a band I would ever listen to, but it's one of my top three games of all time. Like, and so that's, that was really important to me at the outset. I want to make a great pinball machine that even if you're not a rush nerd like me, you're going to want to play this game.
    13:21
    So it's got to be fast. It's got to be exciting. It's got to be interesting to look at. It you know we just we wanted to transcend the hardcore rush fan And you know I such a huge fan of borg layouts because they always offer some fast shots some fast returns to flippers but also super brutal dangerous uh shots that are necessary to do well in the game you know so require some precision shooting as much as uh you'll often have a repeatable ramp shot or uh an easy combo you can make i want the game to beat you up and frustrate you you know so those were the kind of early conversations that that john and i had and uh john for the first time in many many many years had the luxury of time to design this game and really tweak it and work on it and And he was in heaven because normally their schedules are blindingly fast and he's got to come up with something quickly. He's got to get it up and flipping.
    14:35
    And because of the COVID shutdowns and lockdowns, Borg had time to really play with this layout. And the other thing is Borg's a huge Rush fan, too. So it was a great – there was great synergy right from the beginning because John and I were already really good friends. When the band brought me on, John said, well, this is going to be amazing because you can talk pinball to the Rush guys, you can talk music to the Stern guys, and we can get everything we want here. so i felt like john and i were real co-conspirators on the project and pushing it forward pushing for what we wanted was important to have as much music as possible i didn't think we were going to be able to sneak all the music we did into the game uh but you're looking at two hours of music because we got the full first side of 2112, Cygnus X-1, Book 1 and Book 2. It's insane how much music is in this game. Unprecedented, I think. Yeah, it's really impressive. And I know that you had spoke about you guys, you said you wanted to do some bangers. Was it pick 20 songs, if I'm correct? And then 15 out of those were the same for you, Geddy, and Alex. Number 16 was different. If you'll tell us about 16 and then why you went with 20 songs.
    16:08
    Yeah. We initially picked 20 songs each. And of that list, we shared 15 songs. Then next down the list, there were two songs that had two of three votes. Okay. And those were YYZ and La Villa Strangiata. and you guys did an arm wrestle for that well we went back and forth via email and it's funny because i've seen so much chatter uh online yyz should have been in there like why is that song not in the game well it's not in there because getty argued against it oh Getty Lee.
    16:56
    Getty Lee said, no, La Villa Strangiato is a way better song. And, you know, people have a fondness for YYZ because the drum solo on Exit Stage Left happened in YYZ. But La Villa Strangiato, the melodies in that song and the different sections, I think, Getty was right. Like, ultimately, I caved to to Getty's argument that Livia Strangiato is the better song. And I because I'm from Toronto and because Exit Stage Left was like the beginning of my love affair with the band, I wanted YYZ. But I had to admit he was right.
    17:41
    Well, Livia Strangiato is also on YYZ on Exit Stage Left. So, yeah. And Getty's right. Just just so you know, it's a better song. Yeah, he is. And I still love YYZ. Oh, it's a great song. Yeah. I will play it ad infinitum always. And I always play it when I plug an electric guitar in. That interval is so weird. C, F sharp, C, F sharp, C, C, C, F sharp, C, C. That's like that's a weird interval. it's dang catchy though it's one that makes you sit up and listen yeah no absolutely but they're actually um rush is a little bit of an outlier because they actually have they will pepper in instrumental songs and um there's a lot of bands that just won't touch instrumental songs unless you're you know like the cliffs of dover or the iconic ones that everybody knows um so here's the question like and i have i have said my the rush song that speaks to me the most is the analog kid which is actually a number two on subdivision uh on uh singles uh signals signals yes um but uh is there a song that you connect with a rush song that speaks to you and did it get in the game?
    19:02
    My favorite song has always been either Limelight or Free Will. I tend to say Free Will when asked. I just think that those guitar riffs are so interesting.
    19:15
    But Free Will wasn't one of the 27 or 28 songs that I played in my high school band. We played 28 Rush songs and then about 10 songs by other bands.
    19:29
    But, yeah, I used to love Xanadu as well. I did that one in my high school band. We did Cinderella Man. Like, there's a lot of Rush stuff that I love.
    19:45
    But for me, with the pin, the one song I wanted to make sure was in there was Free Will. I haven't played it yet. But on the streams that I've watched, it doesn't sound it sounds like they skip the intro on Levi's Strangiato. Is that correct? They just jump right into it, right? Yeah. Yeah. There's a couple of cases where there's a bit of a slow burn of an intro and we just wanted to get into the hook of the song. I think you'd have to. That's the right call because it is an amazing guitar intro. But jumping right into it is certainly the right move. Yeah. Yeah. We had to make some judicious editing choices. Plus, like Tim Sexton was worried that we were not going to have enough room for that much audio and video to sync with it. It's an enormous amount of data. And like I said, it's it's unprecedented. It's pretty awesome. I was really enjoying it. I mean, the pro, if you don't feel shortchanged with the pro, it felt really good.
    20:57
    You also played at a bar, though, that intentionally turns all the music down. You can't even hear the pins. It wasn't happy hour yet, so it was pretty quiet.
    21:10
    So was there a moment when you're recording with Geddy and Alex and it just was like an aha moment or, you know, there was just a moment that stood out to you during this whole process? well recording with getty and al was hilarious because those guys are really funny and uh but also super professional and they they really wanted to understand the various things they were saying because some things if you're not a pinball nerd they like we take stuff for granted that uh that we need to hear to understand what's going on in the game and when they hear shoot rush they're like what do you mean shoot rush is there a violent aspect to this game we didn't understand um so sometimes it was just about explaining pinball terminology to them what is the scoop what it what's an orbit what is You know, and they're, you know, they're they are keen learners like their tech, their tech minded guys, their gear heads. So they were fascinated by that aspect of it. But overall, the recording session was just a joy. They burn through so much dialogue, and people haven't even heard a quarter of the call-outs yet. There's so much more audio to go in the game. So I think there's going to be a lot more elements to come. For me, the moment that was really cool was getting to voice the Federation pilot role, which, of course, on 2112, that's Neil's voice.
    23:02
    Um, and, uh, Getty and Al suggested that I do it cause I have a deep voice like Neil did. And I was, I was kind of taken aback at first. I was like, Oh no, I can't, I shouldn't like someone's going to get mad. and uh but when we decided to do it and then we were able to get in touch with terry brown who produced all those early rush albums and get the actual settings he used on neil's voice and so when you hear that federation pilot in the game it sounds pretty close to neil on 2112 so that was really exciting for me and being able to hear that in the game is going to be super cool oh yeah so is that the end is that making it to the all the way all 20 minutes and 40 seconds all the way to the end of 2112 you you pop in there well you're going to be hearing instructions from the federation pilot all the way through so that'll be sort of like the game voice actually so giddy and alex are kind of peppering in jackpots and and uh advice and just humor, but I'll be the kind of mechanical voice of the game.
    24:17
    Locks are lit, that kind of stuff. I'm already starting to see a really great game out of this. And we're at early, early code. Like you said, there's still plenty to go into it and whatnot. What makes a great game to you and what did you bring to the table to make sure that this game was going to be great? Well, I requested Tim Sexton and Raymond Davidson early on in this project because I wanted a real modern sensibility to the code on the game. And Tim has got a great sense of adventure when it comes to how he approaches a rule set. Both he and Raymond, I think, knew very little about Rush. So Tim said right away, I'm going to need you to explain the band and the music to me. but I said to Tim look this is your chance to do everything you've been wanting to do like I'm I'm down for it let's do fun stuff with this rule set and I'll figure out a way to sandwich it in with lyrics with theming with the band but tell me what you've been wanting to do from a rule standpoint and let's try to do it so I I wanted it to be the reverse not for those guys to feel like hampered in by a theme, rather for me to figure out how to marry their crazy ideas for a modern, highly nuanced rule set. But man, those guys dove in, and Tim was immediately sending me things that I hadn't even thought of. Tie-ins with lyrics. they poured over the lyrics and watched videos and watched documentaries about the band and before i knew it those guys they were like total aficionados on the band after a couple of months they'd just been living and breathing it and uh all the ideas just started coming together and I feel like Tim and Raymond really have, they've all, like the game launched with so much to do. And it just shows you a roadmap of where they're going.
    26:41
    It's very exciting. It's everything I was hoping for. It might be Borg's best layout, and I'm a huge John Borg fan. So I think it might be Borg's best layout, calling that one early. And I think what Tim and Raymond are bringing to the project in terms of a real modern nuance to the code is exactly what I wanted I wanted the game to be intriguing for people who aren just hardcore Rush nerds and I feel like that what I seeing from all the feedback from people who are playing it Do you have a favorite mode or shot in the game right now? Well, you're looking at a guy who has never touched this game.
    27:30
    You still haven't touched it? I'm flying to Chicago Friday and meeting John at the factory. And fingers crossed, LEs will be hitting the line. And I am really super stoked. But, yeah, I have not touched the game. I have been involved in every decision, every aspect, but I have yet to flip it. I've watched I've watched John flipping it for hours and I've watched him flipping it for days so okay so what mode are you most anticipating or looking forward to then or what uh or what shot well I love the double scoop um the 90 degree scoop kick out I think is super cool uh I love that it was an early request for me to have an under the flipper shot um so that looks great um love the little uh post-up uh ball lock on the far left um and the ramps just look so fast and fun to shoot so i i can't speak firsthand because i've You know, I've watched all the streams so far. And like I said, I've, you know, I've got hours of video of the Whitewood and talking through all the plans for the game.
    29:06
    But I'm I'm really excited for this Friday. It's going to be my first time flipping the game. The one thing I like about Borg, too, is you look at his layout and you think, oh, I can shoot that shot. That is not a big deal. and then for some odd reason it's somehow he's put that ramp somewhere different on the flipper than you would expect and that's one thing i was like first couple games was just trying to figure out where on the flipper am i shooting the shot between you know going through the pops because that's a very dangerous shot and then same with the right ramp it just i'm like that doesn't feel like it should be that far down the flipper but it's it's still it's that's the thing i do like about borg is uh it's it's out of the normal of what you usually feel a shot should be yeah i mean you know i i saw a lot of chatter about similarities uh on this game to other of john's layouts and it it kind of frustrates me because uh you know there's the play field is a finite amount of real estate and what john has been doing very successfully for a long time is refining ideas that he likes you know and reimagining shots that feel good to him and finding a new way to approach things and really coming up with a new take on an interesting mech or a new mech that'll affect some aspect of a layout that he likes but i think the criticism is kind of lame ultimately um because you know if you get a great flowing design and you get a challenging layout then if if it has aspect of aspects of other games we've seen in the past is it not nearly impossible to avoid that you know uh even you know i i'm so in love with elwyn's designs right now um but keith will tell you where he's ripped off every one of those ideas from you know it's the bottom the the upper right corner is congo and and the lower left he he got from the original Jurassic Park and whatever it is you know it's it's about combining ideas that work um if if you try to reinvent the wheel too much you just end up with a brick fest yeah um and ultimately it's about subtly tweaking shots that work and maybe altering the returns and the kickouts and things so it's a new game experience but ultimately if you want the machine to feel good and shoot well, it's going to have aspects of games you've seen before.
    32:04
    Right. And we're all victim to it. I mean, I sold X-Men, and so this has a lot of similarities to X-Men. So that was the one thing I was concerned about because I owned an X-Men and I moved on. However, I'll be the first to admit that layouts and code create a different beast. and having that code and that layout, even though I was looking at it, and there are things that are different enough about this that are going to feel significantly different than the X-Men I had. And so that was my only reservation is that I felt like I had already played X-Men and enjoyed it. But there are a lot of aspects to this that I'm really looking forward to, and it feels like he's taken all the good things and made them better. and if you saw Tim and Raymond and well everyone who was on that reveal stream they were all hitting things and it looked so good and I know they're so much better than me yeah yeah yeah they are so much better than me but it still gives me hope that an experienced good player will be able to make a good flowing game yeah I was just watching Bowen's latest tutorial on Jurassic Park that he put up on Papa. And I was like, yeah, I think I already knew everything you're saying, but I've never put it together that well in a single game.
    33:37
    Yeah, that right ramp is still like a luck shot for me on Jurassic Park. Yeah. It's just so hard to dial in. And the right orbit, the O shot in Chaos. Oh, yeah. That's a pretty tight shot. Yeah. I get pretty good at C-H-A and then – What's going to be easier to shoot, the O or try to go for the smart missile in between the – I have really good luck with the smart missile. Okay. And there's enough of a grace period that if I don't always get it, I'll often get it on the second shot. On the rebound shot? Well, no, get it back to the flipper quick and still make the shot. Okay. which there's just enough time that you can get a second crack at it. I would say I get the smart missile at least 60% of the time, if not more. Okay, that's much better than me. Yeah.
    34:33
    That's an amazing game. Yes. So have the Rush guys seen the machine, and what, after you worked on it, they did all that and you showed them? Did they have any sort of, like, impression? They're not pinball guys. They said that. Yeah. They haven't seen one in person yet, but I sent them all the streaming links and all the kind of chatter around the release and a bunch of the media that went out around the release and just basically congratulated them on a very solid release. But the plan is in the near future for me to actually school them on their games when they get them. there's a plan in the works to have dinner and a little pinball tutorial well that was gonna be my next question is is it's gonna be when it's pinball night at the robertson house do you think you've gotten addicted enough to the server ball yet that they're gonna start joining you on pinball night i would love it i would love it if they did they're they're just a stone's throw from where i live here so you need to ensure that getty brings one of his monocles because you know he has like one of the most impressive monocle collection, which if you thought that collecting pinballs was niche, collecting monocles, it has to be like five levels above, which is the only way Getty does anything really. Yeah. And he, he collects a lot of different things. He's, he's, he's got a pretty impressive watch collection. He's yeah. Yeah. Getty doesn't mess around.
    36:08
    So are you going to like, I, I'm assuming they're going to make a special game for you or some sort of customized, or is it like an LE, or is it a band member? What do you do for founding members like this? How do you get them a game that has their likeness on it?
    36:32
    You know, I don't know if Stern's got anything extra special planned. As far as I know, the guys are just getting numbered LEs. but maybe I'll do something lewd to their games before I deliver them to them and then not tell them until well after the fact then I'll send them the photo of what exactly was on their flipper buttons just before they started handling them I was thinking you were going to pull the glass and like lift up the play field and sign Ed was here or something like that yeah no I should just like blow the game up and enter my initials and then that'll be the GC on their game forever.
    37:17
    So I assume you had some fun putting this all together. If Stern called back up and said, hey, we want you to help do another, would you say yes?
    37:26
    It'd have to be a band that I love or a license that I really love because it's an enormous amount of work uh and i was super happy to do it for the rush guys and uh to be the the bridge between pinball and rock and roll for those guys it was it was a really unique position and really cool and you know as i said i'm such a pinball fan i would love to be involved in any uh project become really good friends with so many of the people at the company so i'd i'd love to do another one but it'd have to be a license that i was excited about because it's very time consuming okay i i'm gonna pitch a license to you okay okay okay what about bare naked ladies uh never heard of them um yeah i mean i i don't think we're in that stratosphere of you know the 50 million let's pretend we do a bare naked ladies pin and you're like okay what would you do for a bare naked ladies pin yep well don't think I haven't possibly skipped something out and created a kind of rules hierarchy that I think would be fun I've certainly thought about it but But it would have to be a boutique project at Stern because we just don't have the record sales to support a foundation release there.
    39:05
    I'd buy one. I think you're downplaying yourself. Well, you know, the other approach would be to do almost an original theme, but with the license of the band. Because I think I could make a very cool pinball experience that was maybe more similar to like Scooby and the Mystery Machine, you know, kind of band chasing down mythological creatures.
    39:41
    Kind of that may have been an idea I've thrown around. Nice. the tour is just a front for this centuries long battle against the folklore monsters of the world it's like a Scott Pilgrim versus the world or something like that kind of thing would be great I agree, I'm sold, you've sold me
    40:13
    okay so So you guys are getting back on the road. You're starting to – you were pretty much in lockdown for the first part of COVID. You've done some online concerts.
    40:27
    And now you're starting to ease your toe back in there. You have famously talked about taking pins on the road. So when you take a pin, do you take one – do you take two? Do you take one that you can play that's all set up? and then one that a project pin or do you just focus on one I actually i actually had a custom road case built that that holds one modern stern pin and the pin is in the road case already at the right angle so my crew guys just have to take the top off and lock the wheels in and it's ready to play fold up the head. So I will bring a modern stern with me out in the summer, but I generally also end up filling the bus bays and parts of the truck with project pins that I pick up along the way.
    41:28
    So I usually leave for the tour with a new stern in a road case, and I get home from the tour with six or seven pins in the truck. So, yeah. That is awesome.
    41:45
    Hey, you might as well take advantage of it, right? Like, if you're out there, you might as well. Why not? Why not? Yeah, and I mean, it's about reaching out to, you know, people I know in different areas. If I'm going down through Texas, I'll reach out to Darren at Pinballs and Ed Van Der Veen at TPF and say, hey, I've been looking for, you know, a joker poker. Can you keep your eye out for me? And, you know, I'll give them a couple months' notice before I get to their part of the world. And I just put the feelers out far and wide, and I've got enough friends in the hobby that word gets passed around, and, you know, I'll hook someone up with tickets and backstage passes if they can get a game out to a gig. I was imagining you like scouring Craigslist and then meeting someone behind a 7-Eleven and like trying to negotiate.
    42:45
    Been there, but I try to keep it a little more professional than that. So is there anyone that you've that you've introduced to the game of pinball and you've been kind of shocked they've just taken off with it? And now now they're bugging you all the time about pinball.
    43:01
    Well, it's more the opposite. I'm surprised when I introduce someone to pinball and they don't fall in love with it. Like, I just, I can't understand it.
    43:12
    So there's a lot of people in my life that have been exposed to it from me and are now starting to collect. You know, my neighbor just, I've got two neighbors on the street now that I got a fun house for my neighbor Volker. and my neighbors Paul and Leah are now looking at their sixth and seventh game. Paul just ordered a Rush LE, and he's already got five up at his cottage.
    43:41
    Yeah, so it is spreading for sure. But I'm never surprised by it because it's the greatest game. And I'm shocked when people don't fall in love immediately with it. I think, you know, I've said this many times. It's that light bulb moment when you explain to someone that it's not just – when you explain that pinball is chess, not checkers. Yes. And it's not just about keeping the ball in play. It's about making specific shots at specific times. People go like, oh, my God. Really? It's like, well, yeah. That's why when you flail around on the game, you're going to get 320,000 points, and I'll have for the same rough length of play, I'm going to have 45 million points in that span of time because I'm looking at what the game wants me to shoot. And when people make that realization, it takes the game to a whole other level for them. You guys know that. Oh, yeah. I've never heard that analogy but that's perfect actually so we are rounding out our time but we want to know where are you going to be this summer if people want to come out and watch you guys play where are you going to be well we're going to be all over America this summer starting down in St. Augustine Florida in early June Friday June 3rd There you go.
    45:21
    And we'll be all over the country. I think we've only got one date in Canada and the rest are in the U.S. Got about 35 shows with Gin Blossoms and Toad the Wet Sprocket opening up. We got a U.K. tour scheduled to start in March. So I'm really hoping that happens. The restrictions seem to be lifting there. We've got a sold-out Royal Albert Hall that we're very excited to get back to. um we haven't played there in about 14 years something like that so um yeah i'm really excited that things are starting to open up and i'm able to get back on the road so that reminds me jeff tiolis was given martin robbins crap because you guys had never been to australia is that true i thought you guys have been to australia we have been to australia Yeah, we only went there once and it was in probably 2000, 99 or 2000. It's just really far. It's really expensive to take a whole bunch of gear there. And realistically, we'd be playing large clubs, you know, so it's a lot easier for us to stay in North America and do our kind of annual or biannual trip over to the UK where we do really well there and have lots of fans. but America's a big country there's lots of places to play very handy to us here in Toronto where's the Utah stop you guys got a call just jump right over it's so close how about you guys come to us we might have to yeah we'll have to do that you know I knew You, Bare Naked Ladies, had made it when I was listening to Weird Al's Running With Scissors, and he covered your song one week and turned it into Jerry Springer. I feel like if you make it, Weird Al covers you, right? Yeah. And honestly, like, that, I've often said, like, that was cooler than any kind of award we won or nominations or whatever. you know the fact that weird al actually did one of our songs is pretty cool and i you know i love it when they mention us on family guy or on uh what we do in the shadows or i just saw it on tosh.o uh on the flight down to mexico we just did a show in mexico with hootie and the blowfish and And I was watching Tosh.0 and a horrible sketch in the 12th season of Daniel Tosh in the fourth episode. There's a one week reference in it. And it just made me laugh. It's awesome that you've had such a cultural impact, too. I was a music man first, then found pinball. And so it's really cool to have you on the show as well, because I played in a band for a little bit. I was nowhere near what you guys were. But we did have some fun. It was fun just touring and getting on the road and playing shows. It's the greatest thing. Oh, yeah. It's the greatest thing. I'm so lucky to get to do what I love to do. I would pay to get to play at the venues that I get to get paid to play at. So, I mean, anyone who's been in any kind of weekend warrior band or – you know it's the greatest thing. So the fact that I've been able to make a career out of it and just beyond grateful and overjoyed, I'm literally the luckiest person in the world.
    49:07
    I could tell that. I was listening to Detour to Force, and I love Good Life. I feel like that song just is an amazing snippet of life. Yeah, I love that song. And I love having written that song 30 years into my career. and I write a song, I go, wow, I really like this song.
    49:29
    So I feel like I'm learning all the time. I'm improving. I've still got something to say that's interesting. I still manage to find a turn of phrase or a couplet that's funny or interesting to me.
    49:45
    It's like it just refills the gas tank, you know, keeps me going for another tour and another writing session. I've got to ask you, I'm trying to figure out what play field that is the concept art behind you. Oh, this is all Keith Elwes' designs. I'm going to steal that. I'm going to steal it from Josh. When we went to Pinball Expo, Zombie Yeti gave it to me. That's cool. It's his four designs, and then they all signed it there at the bottom, the chairs and away from the signatures. Nice. My wife was nice enough to get that framed and give it to me for Christmas. So that's very cool. Yeah. I know Scott. Scott was kind of jealous. I had people almost like, so you want to trade for that? I've got a banner. This is much better. Yeah. Yeah. Do you have a game? I'll I'll consider a game. Yeah. Yeah. No, that's super cool. Well, the first song on the on the album is Flip. Was that inspired at all by pinball?
    50:48
    It wasn't. You could have said, yeah, yeah, yeah. It totally is. This is great. I enjoyed talking to you guys. No, we really appreciate having you on. We know that you're a very busy man, and so we appreciate you taking time out of your busy schedule to join us on our little podcast here and spread the good word of pinball. Yeah, no problem at all. Thanks for doing it, guys. I love listening to podcasts, so making good content is important. and us pinball people are starving for good content. So appreciate all the effort you guys put into it.
    51:28
    You're going to have to start up your own pinball podcast when you're flying to Mexico and stuff like that. You'll just have to interview the person next to you and talk about pinball. Yeah, the last thing I need is another gig. Another project, yeah.
    51:43
    Do you want to do the outro, Josh? Yeah, definitely. I assume you don't want to be bothered, Ed, right? If someone wants to get a hold of you, do you want them to get a hold of you? Buy a ticket. That's how you want them to get a hold of you, right? Come to the show. Yeah. If anybody wants to get a hold of me, my email address is support at google.com. Perfect. Or 411 if you have the number, right? Yeah. I'm going to laugh when we get an email next week saying, I sent an email to support at Google, and they haven't a clue what I'm talking about. Yeah. No, it's support at littlecaesars.com. Oh, their stuff is so good.
    52:26
    If you want to get hold of us, we are Loser Kid Pinball Podcast at gmail.com. We're also on Facebook, Twitter, Instagram, all at Loser Kid Pinball. Also on Twitch if you want to stream, which I haven't done since October, so I should probably not mention that anyway. But, no, it's been a great show. We're excited. Texas Pinball Festival is coming up. I got a couple new hat designs ordered. You going to be joining down there, Ed, hanging out with Ed Van Der Veen and whatnot? I sure hope so. Are you going to be in England? Oh, it is, isn't it? Yeah, it overlaps this year with my UK tour. But Ed and Kim put on one of the greatest shows.
    53:04
    It's my favorite. So many games. Great spot. Yeah, I wish I could go, but you're right. I'll be in the UK. just block out that weekend you can fly back come hang out with us and then you can fly back to UK and do some more toys alright we'll see you at the Greek Theatre Los Angeles Friday June 10th I'll be there awesome well see you in two weeks Scott hey thanks Josh
    53:37
    we'll see you in two weeks Shut up and sit down. Bye.