Episode 175: Pin Up Arcade Bar

Pinball Profile·podcast_episode·28m 59s·analyzed·Jan 27, 2019

Analysis

claude-haiku-4-5-20251001 · $0.030

TL;DR

Pin Up Arcade Bar operator discusses free-play model, league growth, and arcade business challenges.

Summary

Jeff Teolis interviews Che Kernu, owner-operator of Pin Up Arcade Bar in Waterloo, Ontario, and Ian Harrower, a top competitive pinball player. The episode covers Pin Up's free-play admission model (inspired by Tilt in Toronto), its league structure designed to attract new players, the challenges of operating arcade venues, and the contrast between casual and competitive pinball communities. Ian shares insights on game difficulty, player development, and the importance of venue atmosphere.

Key Claims

Pin Up Arcade Bar gets approximately 2,000 plays per week across its machines
high confidence · Che Kernu stating high-score resets occur weekly due to play volume
Pin Up has 15-16 pinball machines at the Waterloo location
high confidence · Che Kernu directly stating machine count during interview
Waterloo city bylaws require specific zoning to operate more than two pinball/video game machines
high confidence · Che Kernu describing zoning restrictions based on proximity to schools and residential areas from 1980s legislation
Pin Up's league uses a six-game best-four-count format with flexible start times
high confidence · Ian Harrower explaining league format designed to accommodate new players and varying schedules
Sunshine Laundromat in New York has tight tilts and hard rules, catering to elite players
medium confidence · Ian Harrower's comparative description of Sunshine versus Pin Up atmosphere
Jeff Teolis won the previous tournament held at Pin Up in February (Super Bowl weekend)
medium confidence · Jeff joking that he hasn't run another tournament there because 'my name's mud around here'
Ian Harrower placed second at Ontario provincial championships to Adam Becker
high confidence · Ian directly stating he lost to 'the second best player in Ontario' after earlier mentioning Adam Becker won his fifth Ontario championship
Pablo's in Guelph has been running pinball/video games for seven years
high confidence · Che Kernu stating duration of operation at Guelph location

Notable Quotes

“It is the owners and the operators that are the lifeline of the future of pinball.”
Jeff Teolis @ early in episode — Statement of philosophy about the pinball industry's dependence on venue operators
“In a coin drop setting, I found people are really timid, especially to play pinball because they hadn't experienced it before. But in this environment where the games are free, pinball is the first thing they play.”
Che Kernu @ mid-interview — Key insight about the free-play model's effectiveness in introducing new players to pinball
“Even if you have new pinball machines, there's a lot of consumable parts, and they require a lot of upkeep. In a concept like this where the games are getting heavy play, you're going to be doing regular maintenance.”
Che Kernu @ toward end of interview — Practical advice for operators about maintenance requirements at high-volume venues
“Sunshine's games are set really hard. Tight tilts, I hear. Tight tilts, hard rules. They're not very approachable games... It's a beautiful place to play pinball for pinball players, but some of the best in the world play there, and the games need to be hard.”
Ian Harrower @ mid-interview — Describes the contrast between elite-focused venues and community-friendly arcades
“I will never stop talking about rules. You know, you find me... and I will stand and I will explain like every little bit of strategy.”
Ian Harrower @ near end of interview — Ian's philosophy on player education and rule explanation as key to community development
“I'm glad you did it on a quiet Tuesday night versus a busy Friday night by some drunk who did it.”
Dan Beeson (relayed by Ian Harrower) @ during glass-breaking anecdote — Operator's pragmatic response to discovering non-tempered glass safety issue
“Look at what your city's bylaws are. Because it's different for every city.”
Che Kernu @ near end of interview — Practical advice for prospective arcade operators about regulatory requirements

Entities

Pin Up Arcade BarorganizationChe KernupersonIan HarrowerpersonJeff TeolispersonPablo'sorganizationTiltorganizationDan BeesonpersonSunshine Laundromatorganization

Signals

?
business_signal: Free-play admission model ($5 entry) appears financially viable with 2,000 plays/week; high-volume play drives maintenance demands but supports game retention
medium · Che describes 2,000 plays/week leading to weekly high-score resets; discussion of consumable parts and regular maintenance requirements
?
community_signal: Pin Up's league design successfully draws and retains new players; players transitioning from league play to tournament participation (e.g., new player discussing attending Pinburgh/ReplayFX)
high · Che and Jeff describe new players improving rapidly and considering tournament play; Ian notes earlier concerns about dominance being replaced by competitive diversity
~
sentiment_shift: Pinball community values both competitive and casual play; shift toward inclusivity in venue design and league structure to bridge elite and beginner players
high · Ian's explanation of game difficulty balance and rule education philosophy; discussion of EM games appealing to new players despite tournament focus
?
operational_signal: Technical expertise (machine maintenance, repair) is critical bottleneck for arcade operators; difficult to hire full-time techs; operators rely on peer community knowledge
high · Che emphasizes need to 'be a good tech' and willingness to 'get hands dirty'; cites learning from Dan Beeson and peer network; notes difficulty hiring full-time technicians
?
regulatory_signal: Municipal zoning bylaws from 1980s-era create barriers to arcade expansion in some Canadian cities; proximity-to-school and residential-area restrictions apply

Topics

Free-play arcade business modelprimaryLeague structure and player developmentprimaryArcade operator challenges and maintenanceprimaryCompetitive vs. casual pinball communitiesprimaryRegulatory and zoning requirements for arcadessecondaryGame curation for different player demographicssecondaryRules education and player mentorshipsecondaryVintage video games and pinball collectionmentioned

Sentiment

positive(0.82)— Episode is celebratory of Pin Up's success and the free-play model. Discussion is constructive and focused on community growth. Minor humor about glass-breaking incident and tournament rivalries adds warmth. No significant criticism of business model or venues, though contrasts between elite and casual venues are noted factually.

Transcript

groq_whisper · $0.087

0:00

It's time for another Pinball Profile. I'm your host, Jeff Teolis. You can find our group on Facebook. We're also on Twitter at Pinball Profile. Email us pinballprofile at gmail.com. And please subscribe on either iTunes, Stitcher, or Google Play. I certainly get around playing a lot of tournaments. And how this all started for me, well, you have to go way back to when I was a teenager or even before that, playing in arcades. And, of course, pinball machines were fantastic. They had video games, too, at the time of Space Invaders and Pac-Man. But pinball games, you could put a quarter in, and if you were lucky, maybe you were good enough to win a free game or get a match. And that quarter would last a lot longer. Well, as we know, arcades kind of went goodbye. And once video games became more popular and pinball machines were maybe harder to fix, and even companies like Williams said, you know what, we can make more money doing slot machines, we lost the arcades. Thank God here in 2019 and over the last few years, we're seeing more and more arcades pop up because that will get more people interested in pinball. Things like the IFPA certainly grow the tournament players and the competition, but it is the owners and the operators that are the lifeline of the future of pinball. So I'm going to, in 2019, make sure that I talk to more owners and operators. In fact, if you know some, please email me, again, pinballprofile at gmail.com because, again, we want to promote these places of pinball that are very, very important for people to be exposed to it for the first time. I'm here at one such place right now. You can probably hear some stuff in the background. The place is called Pinup Arcade Bar, and we're in Waterloo, Ontario, so just about an hour west of Toronto. And I've known this owner-operator for a few years. He owns a few different places. We'll talk about that in a second. Che Kernu. Che, you've been open for a year here now, roughly, and what this format is is a lot of great pinball machines. You'll see the pictures on our Facebook page, but a lot of great classic video games. You've got Donkey Kong, you've got Tron, you've got Burger Time, and you've got the Dance Dance Revolutions. What made you decide to open this pin-up? I've been collecting games for about, oh, I guess longer than that now, it was seven, eight years, mainly pinball, but I always enjoyed video games. I went to Hunger in Arcades as a kid, and yeah, I just really enjoyed it and I have another location in Guelph, like you mentioned and I've been running pinball machines and video games there for seven years and people really liked it and it went well and yeah, I live in Waterloo so I wanted to do a place in Waterloo. So Pablo's is the place we're talking about in Guelph and it's a big university town so it's right downtown and there's a lot of action there and certainly the bar scene is big and then you probably sprinkled a few pinball machines in there and wow, people are like, what are these? Yeah, so Guelph's a little different because it's mainly like a live music bar, and I had another side that was kind of holding tank for that, and it was sort of ripe to do something with, so we started adding games to it, and people really liked it. Now that's a traditional arcade in the sense, now it's actually a bar, as you mentioned, with bands, but it's a traditional arcade that we normally see where you pump your quarters, your dollars in. Where we're at right now with pin-up is a little bit different, and we've talked to our good friend Dan Beeson about what he's done in Toronto with Tilt. This is kind of similar to Tilt in a way that you pay your admission to come in, which right now is $5, and everything, everything except the bar is on free play. Yeah, the games are all on free play. It's a concept that Dan and I actually talked about for quite a bit before either of us really did it and thought it would be a great idea. So they got their kind of first shot at Tilt in Toronto, and it went really well there. and we do the same thing here. It gets a lot of people who are new to arcades. There's lots of young people who didn't experience arcades like us old guys. Speak for yourself. It gets them out and trying it, and it gets them trying all the games. In a coin drop setting, I found people are really timid, especially to play pinball because they hadn't experienced it before. But in this environment where the games are free, pinball is the first thing they play. Isn't that interesting? Because you and I, being older, and yes, we are older, we are not afraid to try the pinball machines. I never thought of that mindset for some of the younger players that grew up on home video game systems, you know, playing at home on their PlayStations or whatever, Xbox, pinball. They don't have these at home, so this is a neat novelty, and it's not exactly as easy as, okay, keep the ball alive, like the older EMs and maybe some of the solid states. There's a lot of rule sets and things, so it's a little confusing for people to maybe put their dollars in. Yeah, even before you actually get to that point, they don't know how to start the game really they often like in or the other location we have where it's coin drop they don't understand that you have to put money in the game to start it hitting a start button hitting the flippers to make the flippers activate like all of that is new to them well you've got a great lineup here and just some of the games i'm thinking of as you mentioned that point would be star wars and game of thrones so even if you do figure out how to start those games then it tells you pick a house or pick a character what what what yeah those games are often really confusing for new players. They kind of sit there dumbfounded and smashing the flippers and waiting for something to happen, and they don't look at the screen. They don't understand that there's a sequence to it. Speaking of smashing the flippers, now, I know you and I were talking before about games at home, and you asked me, how often do I change my coils? And I said, well, if I buy a new, quote, used game, and the flippers are weak, there's where I would do a flipper rebuild. And when I say me, I usually get Ian or somebody else to help me out. That's not the case here at Pinup. I mean, you have a ton of brand new games. Deadpool, Iron Maiden, I see ACDC, Star Wars, Guardians. These are just some of the games here. You have to do flipper rebuilds and other things too, don't you? Because of the volume of play. Yeah, a lot. I think when we first started tracking, we were seeing somewhere in the neighborhood of around 2,000 plays a week on games. And I only know that because the high scores would reset and they would reset weekly so if you had your like second or third place score the grand champion would stay but the other scores would get all the way every week it had to be because i got a high score on star wars and that has never ever in my life happened uh maybe daddy used to shoot the desktop but not this one so as an owner operator you've got a wide mix of games in here i would assume some of the newer titles especially the licensed themes are the ones that attract newer players is that safe to say uh you know what they really it's really a mix they love the old em machines they're not as intimidating they look really simple even though we know that they're actually tough games and they're pretty hard to play or to play well at least they find those games really approachable so sometimes those are the first games people go to and it's really more about theme for those kinds of players than it is about how good the game is or how good the rules are. So a game like that, you know, pinball collectors like you guys will make fun of me for having Super Mario Brothers For pinball players they might not appreciate a game like that as much as kids born in the 90s who grew up playing Mario and loved that kind of game Yeah, you were telling me you were thinking about buying monsters. You only have so much room here and you have, I don't know, how many pinball machines are in there? I think we're up around 15 or 16 now. 15, 16, you said one's got to go and the first thing I said was Super Mario Bros. You said, no, no, no, no, because I don't understand. And you're right. I'm a pinball tournament player. And, yeah, that doesn't attract me, but that's not what this place, Pin Up, is all about. I mean, we try to appeal to both audiences. We do run a league here. We run tournaments here. We get a lot of pinball players out, but we also get a lot of people that are just kind of out curiously playing games. You mentioned you run tournaments, Che. In fact, I think I ran a tournament here last February, the Super Bowl weekend. Being such a jerk, I might have won it too, which is why I've never run another one here, because my name's mud around here. But a guy who does run not only tournaments and leagues here at this location and your Pablo's location in Guelph is my good friend Ian Harrower. Ian, you know very well from obviously being one of the top players in the world, and you see him on streams. He was just recently on InDisc, and you've seen him at other Papa circuit events. Ian, how are you doing, buddy? I'm still recovering from the provincial championships. It was a great disappointment to lose to the second best player in Ontario. I wasn't going to say anything. And you brought it up. The door is wide open. Congratulations to Adam Becker, who won the Ontario championship. I think it was his fifth time, and no one was going to beat him that day. I was just happy to be second. And I had a tough, tough path to get there. John Flinton, who was a winner at Buffalo Pinball Summer Open in the Classics event. The second time he's won that in three years. He is a guy I never, ever, ever beat. Then I got to play you, Ian, which was kind of fun. We were glad to make it to that round. And flip a coin. One day I'll win, one day you'll win. I just got lucky that day. And then another player, Zeus, who was the number one player in Ontario. I can't remember the last time I beat him and got lucky. So thank you for the accolades, Ian. Dexter, it'll be the other way around, I'm sure. Anyway, let's get back to the leagues here at Pinup. Now, do you want to explain how your leagues work for maybe somebody wanting to set up a league at an arcade like a Pinup? Yeah, so there were a few things we considered when we started this league. And most of all, what was important was I really wanted to draw new players in. There's a lot of leagues going on in the area. I take part in four different leagues. You know, I'm traveling for tournaments. But I wanted to expand the player base. That was what was really important. And there's a couple things we wanted. One, flexible start time. So we didn't want to lock people in to playing against other people in a match play type format. Because take tonight for example. Some people started playing around 6.15, others started playing around 8.30. And I wanted to be able to work with people's schedules, their families and things like that. So that was one of the key factors was to have flexible start time. So we play a best game format. We find it is very approachable. It allows for flexible schedule. So we'll play six games each night. We make sure one of them is an EM because we want to give people a broad spectrum of experience on games. Pinball, to me, is about all of the generations. I love classics and I want new players to experience all aspects of that. And so we'll play six nights, six games each night, and we'll count the best four out of those six and then play towards the final. And you use the great papa.org software that Joe Schober put together, which is available for anybody if you want to do a league. Yeah, so the software is really helpful. We have players who love tracking stats, the amount of information that's available on the site. It's really easy to use. Joe is super helpful getting it set up. He did it really quickly. when the person who was doing scores at the time ran into some problems, didn't understand the interface. Joe responded really quickly and helped us through all of our problems, and it's just been great. I set up a league that you and I are in, the TCPL, on Papa.org. If I can do it, anybody can do it. Trust me, right, Ian? Safe to say? Yeah, Jeff knows absolutely nothing about technology. I don't even know how this podcast gets out.

12:44

And, you know, that was one of the concerns. It's one of the reasons we have a B division for our finals, is to make sure that people are playing pretty deep and have something to play for. Because everyone was like, oh, Ian's just going to win anyway. But now I'm not winning all the time. You know, there's a lot of strong players who are putting up good scores, and it's becoming tougher and tougher, which is great. And that's what we want to see. Well, a good problem to have here at Pinup Arcade Bar in Waterloo is this place has a lot of people a lot of times. I mean, it's a snowy, snowy night right now, so it's a little quiet, but there were a lot of people here earlier. Yeah, it's been kind of, we got busy right off the hop. I mean, it's a different concept for the area. As you know, there aren't a lot of arcades around, and there's not a lot of location gaming around. So this was a very kind of different experience for people, and they seem to really like it. We get a mix from young families coming out on our weekends during the days or early in the evening to when we transition to being a bar after 9 p.m. We get good crowds and a good demographic, really wide. Are there any tips you can give some people? I know a lot of people in the pinball community that it's their dream to open up an arcade in different locations. You've had experience now twice putting machines in. I would suggest one of those tips is make sure you or someone you know is a great tech. Yeah, that's one definite thing is that you can quickly get in over your head if you don't know how to fix the stuff. The stuff is going to break. Even if you have new pinball machines, there's a lot of consumable parts, and they require a lot of upkeep. In a concept like this where the games are getting heavy play, you're going to be doing regular maintenance. It next to impossible these days to find a full tech if that what you looking for to hire one So unless you know how to do it yourself and are willing to kind of get your hands dirty with it it can be a pretty tough slog Yeah if you an operator and you on a coin drop and the game down well, that's revenue lost. I mean, you want the machines to be used for sure. You probably can't remember when you first started learning. It's like the back of your hand right now, but there are people out there like, okay, that's great that I need to be a good tech. How do I become a good tech? Yeah, so fortunately there's a good community around, and I have good friends like Dan Beeson who has been operating for a long time. I've learned a ton from him. I still lean on him lots when I get in over my head myself and we kind of talk all the time and discuss different problems we run into. People like Ian who's also a collector and has had his own machines. There's just lots of people around who've run into lots of different things, being able to talk to them and bounce ideas off them of kind of different problems you're having. But yeah, you definitely have to be willing to get your hands dirty. I go back five years ago when I first started getting into this competitive pinball scene. It was 2014. I hadn't played a pinball machine in over 15 years. And someone said that there's a league on Facebook. And I said, okay, let me check this out. And I was in awe that some of these games I remember from my past were at this person's home, and I was hooked. but five years ago, I don't recall there being many arcades or barcades or things like Pin Up or like Tilt in Toronto, like your Pablo's in Guelph. I know that Pint just opened up in Toronto. They're popping up. The Rec Room is a big thing too. A little bit different, certainly not a pinball place, more about the redemption games, and that's certainly popular with the younger people, but we're seeing more and more of these. what made you decide to go this format versus maybe a redemption game or a coin drop when it came to pinup yeah i mean really this is the kind of games that i enjoy i collect them all machines myself i always liked arcades i always liked the video games um the redemption places are great for young families and they have young kids who want to run around and play but that's not the kind of place that really interested me to operate and this is also as you know it's pinup arcade bar and this concept lends itself to a good bar scene. So after night at 9 o'clock, the lights go down, the music goes up a little bit, and we have DJs. DJ Mike Burns. DJ Mike Burns, as well as some others. So yeah, it's a really kind of different scene than you'd expect to see at a Palladium or a Rec Room. Ian, you've traveled around a lot to play pinball, and I know you've been at other league nights and things similar to this. I think of Sunshine, which I haven't been, in New York, and that's at that famous laundromat with great games, just like Che has here at Pin Up. What's the atmosphere like there compared to Pin Up for those who may have been to Sunshine? Sunshine is a very unique experience, you know, set at the back of the laundromat. It's kind of this magical experience walking through that door. But the atmosphere here is much more friendly. It's much more approachable. Sunshine's games are set really hard. Tight tilts, I hear. Tight tilts, hard rules. They're not very approachable games, and they're wrong coin drop. It's a beautiful collection of rare LEs. Supreme! Yeah, there's a Supreme there. I think they just got a Beatles Platinum in. It's a great place to play pinball for pinball players, but some of the best in the world play there, and the games need to be hard and they need them to not play all night long. When you're in a place like this where the games are on free play, and the games are set in a much more approachable way until I get my hands on them. I get complaints around here. But I need to balance things for League. But it's nice Che lets me set the games for League. Yeah, don't cut yourself short here. All you're doing is taking off extra balls, maybe tournament modes. Oh, he tightens the tilts. Oh, does he? I didn't find that too bad. I tilted on Walking Dead. I tilted on Guardians too, so I gave them a good shove. I didn't think they were too tight. Yeah, the games are playable, but we've balanced it over time, like between trying to make it accessible and playable for league play. We've removed some post rubbers. We've left some post rubbers in. I think we've found a good balance here where I can run a league and get through the night without making too much frustration for people walking in off the street. Leeds, I think, for tournament players are where it starts, I think. I know it was for me. And that's not safe to say. It's the same for everyone else. But it was just being able to see a variety of different games, interacting with people, a little bit of competition, certainly a friendly atmosphere, and also the ability to ask, hey, what do you do on this game? In tournaments, it's a little bit different. As you know, Ian, most people know what they're doing. So maybe some locals that are there, oh, what's this? I'll play, or it was part of my entry. But for the most part, it's a different atmosphere. But I think the genesis came from leagues. I think that's where it all started. Yeah, I think that we're teaching a lot of people how to play. Like, I am, anyone who knows me knows, I will never stop talking about rules. You know, you find me... Hey, that's one of my reasons I like you so much, is because you help me out with that, and others. And, like, the players here, I will sit and I will explain I will stand and I will explain like every little bit of strategy from hey I want to step up to this machine and I have no idea what I'm doing and I can be like try to do bash sparky try to get that multi ball going but then as players get better we start talking about technique and moving towards well how do you crank it up how do you progress towards this what is my risk reward how should I think about these things this is one of the reasons the players are getting better is they're learning and they're pushing this stuff. Che, what makes you decide in your two places, and again, we're talking pin-up in Waterloo, which everything's on free play, Pablo's in Guelph, which is a coin drop. What makes you decide which games are best for each arcade? Oh, that's a tough question. So, like I said before, it's a lot about theme, right? So, as far as pinball machines go, a game that doesn't get a lot of love from pinball players like Mario Brothers or like Street Fighter 2, the general public loves those games. So when we're looking at pinball machines, I try to balance that out and have some games that are just kind of going to be popular with non-pinball players to then having games that are good with deep rule sets and challenging for pinball players. And then as far as video games go, honestly, I just pick the stuff that I loved as a kid. Yeah, a great collection here. And we've taken some pictures again. They'll be up on Facebook. The reason I ask that question is I've been to both locations and the newer games you seem to have here in your free play location, which I thought, well, does that pay for the games? I wonder why you've done that versus the other location. And I don't know the answer. It really just a question It not sarcasm in any way I don know the answer why you would pick one over the other when it comes to paying for the games Yeah I mean it two different cities And the things that will be popular in Guelph aren't necessarily what would be popular here. And two different places. Like in Guelph, you have Doogie's and Pablo's. And Doogie's is a live music bar. And it's been a live music bar for 20 years. And people know it as that. And Pablo's is sort of like a holding tank for that. And people don't necessarily go there for an arcade experience. they go there just to kind of have fun so for the most part they're just the games that are popular there basketball so a basketball shooting game yeah so pop a shot basketball it's the most popular thing in the place two minute drill a football game you're throwing the ball through the holes super popular game ice cold beer i've noticed is a really popular game too ice cold beer is very popular challenging different and like people like those sort of like The game, not the drinks. Well, both are popular, but the game is popular. People like those quirky games are different than other things that they've experienced. This could be trouble, and I've never admitted this on air, but here we go. I'm teeing it up, Ian. We'll see where you go with this. Ian, at either location, are people pretty kind to the machines? No one gets violent or anything like that.