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Ep 76 - Goodbye Ramps, Hello Single Level?

Special When Lit·podcast_episode·39m 20s·analyzed·Oct 29, 2019
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TL;DR

Industry updates on new tech, redemption games, and classic remakes dominate post-Expo discussion.

Summary

Special When Lit Episode 76 features Bill Wett and Tim Cromwell (Ken Cromwell) discussing recent pinball industry news from Pinball Expo, including American Pinball's surprising pivot to redemption games, Spooky's new interactive Alice Cooper Nightmare Castle topper, Jersey Jack's Bluetooth and Wi-Fi connectivity announcements, and rumors about Stern remaking Quicksilver as a Led Zeppelin-themed machine. The hosts debate design philosophy around drop targets, shooter rods, and whether classic remakes should maintain period-correct mechanics or adopt modern technology.

Key Claims

  • American Pinball's Game 3 is a redemption machine, not a pinball machine, marking a new direction for the company

    high confidence · Kaz (American Pinball correspondent) in Industry Buzz segment; confirmed by Bill Wett who visited the factory and saw it in prototype status

  • Spooky released a new interactive topper for Alice Cooper Nightmare Castle priced at $299, featuring a 3D moving brain in a jar

    high confidence · Dr. John (Spooky Pinball correspondent) in Industry Buzz segment

  • Jersey Jack is beta testing Bluetooth headphone connectivity for upcoming machines via a dongle similar to Dialed In's

    high confidence · Ken Rudberg (Jersey Jack correspondent) in Industry Buzz segment

  • Jersey Jack announced Wi-Fi connectivity for automatic updates on upcoming machines, eliminating the need for USB stick updates

    high confidence · Ken Rudberg (Jersey Jack correspondent) in Industry Buzz segment

  • Stern is rumored to be modernizing Quicksilver (1980 classic) as a Led Zeppelin-themed machine, similar to how Sea Witch was adapted into The Beatles

    medium confidence · Craig (Stern News Correspondent) in Industry Buzz segment; explicitly noted as rumor with Stern unable to confirm/deny

  • A three-bank drop target assembly costs approximately $200 retail, making integration of multiple drop target sets expensive

    high confidence · Tim Cromwell cited pricing from PinballLife.com showing $199.99 for three-bank assembly

  • Approximately 15,000 pinball machines are sold annually in the US across all manufacturers combined

    medium confidence · Bill Wett in discussion about potential redemption machine market size

  • Steve Beatty purchased a Banzai Run from Ed Van Der Veen (TPF organizer) at recent Expo

    high confidence · Bill Wett discussing personal purchases from Expo

Notable Quotes

  • “It's called American Pinball, not American Redemption. Hey, hey, now. Yeah, I was a little surprised to hear that, too. I like that, though. They're diversifying.”

    Bill Wett / Tim Cromwell @ ~13:30 — Captures the initial surprise and eventual acceptance of American Pinball's strategic pivot away from pinball-only manufacturing

  • “It's freaking massive. I mean, it's not something you're putting in your car to bring into your basement. The thing is massive.”

    Bill Wett @ ~17:00 — Description of American Pinball's redemption prototype machine size and implications for retail placement

  • “Now, if the sales of redemption games can help to further push the pinball. That's exactly it. If it drives more funding in the pinball without having to take money out of Ametron, which is the parent company, I get it.”

    Tim Cromwell / Bill Wett @ ~18:30 — Reframes redemption game development as potential investment vehicle for pinball development via parent company diversification

  • “I think the least desirable for me, as far as the toppers go, is that plexi kind of looking topper that's on the Willy Wonka Collector Edition. And I hope at some point they up their game on the toppers.”

    Tim Cromwell @ ~28:00 — Critical assessment of Jersey Jack's Willy Wonka topper despite premium pricing; signals customer expectations for luxury editions

  • “What I would have liked to have seen for a Ghostbusters topper would have been the actual ghost trap that was on top of the machine. And when you were capturing ghosts, it would open up.”

    Bill Wett @ ~30:30 — Detailed design feedback on topper mechanics showing what interactive features collectors value

  • “I'm kind of indifferent at this point. I really like what they did with Beatles, so I'm not trying to crap on anything else. You know, I want to see how this turns out.”

    Tim Cromwell @ ~45:00 — Measured response to Led Zeppelin rumor; reflects willingness to judge remakes on execution rather than premise

  • “Would you like to see a game that's got ramps, or do you want to see single level games that were time period correct with these classic rock themes?”

Entities

Bill WettpersonTim CromwellpersonKen CromwellpersonSteve BeattypersonEd Van Der VeenpersonGeorge GomezpersonJamie WebbpersonKazpersonBrian Cosnerperson

Signals

  • ?

    product_strategy: American Pinball pivots to redemption game manufacturing alongside pinball production, potentially to access larger arcade market (estimated 'a lot more' than 15k units/year) and generate additional revenue for parent company Ametron without cannibalizing pinball budget

    high · Kaz confirmed Game 3 is redemption machine; Bill Wett noted size and prototype status; hosts discussed market sizing rationale

  • ?

    design_innovation: Multiple manufacturers (Spooky, Stern, Jersey Jack, Chicago Gaming) racing to differentiate through interactive topper technology; Spooky's Alice Cooper topper combines homebrew aesthetic with moving gauges and spinning brain for $299; raising bar for collector-tier machines

    high · Industry Buzz from Dr. John; extensive topper rating discussion; hosts comparing across 4+ recent releases

  • ?

    technology_signal: Jersey Jack beta testing Bluetooth headphone connectivity and Wi-Fi automatic updates via dongle architecture; addressing location player pain points (sensory overload, audio immersion) and operator pain points (manual USB updates, error code monitoring)

    high · Ken Rudberg Jersey Jack correspondent segment detailing beta test on Willy Wonka machines and dongle design

  • ?

    rumor_hype: Stern rumored to be remaking Quicksilver (1980) as Led Zeppelin-themed machine following Beatles/Sea Witch precedent; George Gomez mentioned considering Stern Classics line of remakes, but cost concerns around drop targets and mechanical complexity may limit volume

    medium · Craig's Stern correspondent segment explicitly framed as unconfirmed rumor; detailed Quicksilver history provided as context; hosts discussed design implications

  • ?

Transcript

groq_whisper · $0.118

0:00
Coming at you out of St. Charles, Illinois, the special When Lit Pinball podcast starts now. Hey, what's going on, everybody? Welcome to episode number 76. This is the special When Lit Pinball podcast. Hello, Pinball Land, and hello, Bill Wett. Hello, Tim Cromwell. Whoa, you sound like you're in the same studio as I am for once. Dude, this has been a chirpy couple weeks, man. Yeah, welcome to Studio C. Yeah, dude. Well, number one at Studio C. Back face to face, man. I know, man. It's good stuff, man. It's crazy. How you been, buddy? Missed you. We're okay, dude. It's just crazy and lack of sleep and, you know, the Walking Dead pinball machine. Yeah, I feel like that's how I'm living right now. The Walking Dead. So if we don't make a whole lot of sense, please bear with us, but we're trying, people. Hey, hey. You know what? We have to get our mojo going here because we're not used to working in tandem. It's been a couple weeks. It's Steve Beatty filled in last week and then the week before that. It was a solo effort that I didn't care to do again. So glad that you're back, man. Hey, you did good last week, and I thought the solo episode was real good. Oh, geez. I appreciate it. I didn't feel comfortable. It's transitional, man. We're making our way back. It's fine. Those guys that are doing solo episodes, right off the top of my head, I think of Chris Kluwer. He does it multiple times a week. And Orbital Albert over there, Pinball Nerds. And I know I'm missing other people. it's it's an amazing it's amazing to be able to do that and to be fluent. So kudos to both of you guys. It's not it's not easy. But not be not be added heavy either. I mean, you can make yourself sound good if you had it. Yeah, I know. I just on that solo episode, I'm like because I had like forty five minutes. I just hit record, did it and uploaded it. So it is what it is. But listen, we're going to talk about pinball here in a second. I did want to wish you on the air face to face. congratulations to both you and uh jamie and your daughter madeline for the addition of billy webb the fifth over there uh at the web household and i know it's tough with the new baby and i know that you've got obligations so i appreciate that one that your wife was uh willing to allow you to break away for an hour she wasn't willing no this cost me uh a trip to target or wherever she feels like going for two hours oh good good yeah you know well perfect well make sure that you open that envelope because there's a little something in there for Jamie that she can utilize for her trip tomorrow. All right. Well, thank you. So that's good. Thank you, Ken Cromwell and his family. Spoiler alert. Yeah, no worries, man. We had a lot of people that had contacted the show and wished you and Jamie and Madeline the best of luck and best wishes. So welcome back. Welcome back, Phil. Thank you. You're back here. And all the people that reached out, you know, thank you very much. Like I said, it's just been such a crazy time. Try and definitely reach out back to everybody. And if anybody got lost in the shuffle or if I didn't get back to you, you know, it's not because I didn't mean to. It's just been two hours of sleep in a whack, it seems like. I felt like I had a newborn after getting back from Expo for the whole next week. I was pretty out of it. Dude, Expo, it's like the Expo flu when you go there. In more ways than one, Bill. Yes. Either you could have some chicken or some beverages. Or beverages. Or, you know. Yeah, I mean, that's a crazy time at Expo. I wish you would have experienced this Expo with us because it was super fun. You were missed, and I hope at some point we're able to try to get down to TPF or MGC or that Louisville show that's pretty close.

Bill Wett @ ~46:30 — Core design philosophy question about whether classic remakes should prioritize historical accuracy or modern feature expectations

  • “if I could just literally hook that thing to the Wi-Fi and it'll update itself, dude, rock out... you could see what switches and stuff like that are commonly going bad. And it's better for research purposes on how to build a better game.”

    Tim Cromwell @ ~37:00 — Highlights operator pain points with manual updates and potential data benefits of automatic Wi-Fi updates for manufacturer R&D

    • Dr. John
    person
    Ken Rudbergperson
    Craigperson
    Pat Lawlerperson
    Stern Pinballcompany
    American Pinballcompany
    Spooky Pinballcompany
    Jersey Jack Pinballcompany
    Chicago Gaming Companycompany
    Special When Lit Pinball Podcastorganization
    Pinball Expoevent
    Alice Cooper Nightmare Castlegame
    The Beatlesgame
    Quicksilvergame
    Oktoberfestgame
    Black Knight Sword of Ragegame

    design_philosophy: Debate over whether classic remakes should maintain period-correct single-level playfields or adopt modern ramps and multi-level layouts; drop target assembly costs (~$200 for 3-bank) cited as potential $600+ addition per game, raising MSRP concerns for already expensive machines

    high · Extended discussion of drop target pricing from PinballLife.com; mechanical assembly cost breakdown; hosts questioning whether $600 parts cost justifies $2000+ MSRP increase

  • ?

    product_concern: Tim Cromwell mentioned personal experience with failed USB update (accidentally loaded Pro code on LE Black Knight, losing upper flipper control, requiring full SD card reinstall); highlighting pain point that Jersey Jack Wi-Fi connectivity aims to solve

    high · Tim's detailed error narrative; expressed relief about Wi-Fi eliminating USB process risks

  • ~

    sentiment_shift: Hosts expressed disappointment with Jersey Jack's Willy Wonka Collector Edition topper aesthetic (plexi-only vs. interactive) despite premium $$ price point; comparisons to earlier JJP toppers (Pirates, Wizard of Oz 75th) suggest declining satisfaction with non-interactive toppers on LE machines

    high · Tim Cromwell: 'I hope at some point they up their game on the toppers'; compared unfavorably to Medieval Madness, Attack from Mars, Fishtails toppers

  • ?

    operational_signal: Jersey Jack Bluetooth headphone feature framed as game-changer for location play by addressing sensory overload and audio immersion gaps vs. home play; Bill Wett saw this as enabling fuller game experience without venue noise interference

    medium · Extended discussion of location vs. home audio experience; Bill noted carrying Bose noise-canceling headphones to location would be practical

  • ?

    business_signal: American Pinball's redemption game development framed as potential revenue driver for parent company Ametron without cannibalizing dedicated pinball development budget; suggests strategic decision to capture arcade market while maintaining pinball pipeline

    medium · Tim Cromwell: 'If it drives more funding in the pinball without having to take money out of Ametron, which is the parent company, I get it'

  • ?

    event_signal: 35th Pinball Expo generated major announcements (Jersey Jack tech stack, Spooky topper), rumors (Led Zeppelin), factory visits (American Pinball), and personal acquisitions (Banzai Run, Wonka Standard); hosts discussing potential to attend 3-4 shows per year going forward

    high · Multiple Industry Buzz segments covering Expo announcements; Bill and Tim discussed attending TPF, MGC, Louisville show, Replay FX, Pintastic

  • $

    market_signal: Tim Cromwell listing Munsters Pro for sale due to limited space and funds; replacing with Wonka Standard; suggests active collector turnover and opportunity cost of limited housing for pinball collections

    high · Tim: 'I'm listing my Munsters Pro for sale... The problem is it's limited space and limited funds'

  • ?

    personnel_signal: Steve Beatty filled in as guest host while Tim Cromwell managed newborn; indicates podcast infrastructure supporting absences via rotating contributors; Beatty purchased Banzai Run at Expo

    high · Bill acknowledged Steve's solo hosting; Tim explained newborn obligations; both praised solo hosting as difficult skill

    • 3:30
    And I want to get out to Replay FX maybe next year or Pintastic. I'm getting the show bug. I want to try to get it to where we're doing three to four shows a year, like one every quarter would be pretty awesome. Oh, yeah. You know what? And TPF might not be out of the question. I mean, do we still got five months? Yeah. He's just got to sleep through the night. But, dude, you know, the crazy thing about going to these shows, man, how much pinball did you actually play at the show? I probably about 20 games of pinball, which is like 19 games more than I played at TPF. Which is a record. Yeah. For any expo that you've gone to. We put a lot of time on Banzai Run, and then Steve Bede actually just ended up buying a Banzai Run from Ed Van Der Veen, who ironically runs TPF. So that's in the process of getting shipped here. I know that you just put some money down, or you just bought another pin, right? Yeah. What did you grab? So in a moment of haste, yeah, I decided to buy a Wonka Standard. Okay, good. So you're in Wonka Club. Yeah, and I'm listing my Munsters Pro for sale, so if anyone's interested. Munsters Pro, jump on it now. I don't like the game, but you know what? The problem is it's limited space and limited funds. Yeah, no, I get it. Believe me, I get it. Well, how about we do this? You want to get caught up in the pinball news? I do, man. Let's get back to something normal here. Getting the news from around the industry in this week's Industry Buzz.
    4:55
    Hey, this is Kaz, your special and lit American Pinball correspondent. I had a great time last week at Pinball Expo and also spent some time with the team from American Pinball at the show and visited the factory. It was great to meet the team and see games being built, tested, and packed for shipping around the world. I was able to see the new game in development, and it's definitely taking the company in a new direction. It's a very interesting concept that was not what I was expecting. It is a redemption game. There will be an official announcement made very soon.
    5:31
    Oktoberfest also continues to have new code updates to further improve the game. Let's hope everyone has a great week and has fun playing pinball. For American Pinball, this is Brian Cosner. Hello there and welcome to this week's special when list spooky pinball update from Dr. John. Happy Halloween week for everybody and as part of the week's celebration, Spooky has released footage of their new Alice Cooper Nightmare Castle pinball topper. It must be the month of toppers in pinball, what with Black Knight and Monster Bash revealing theirs. This spooky topper can be seen on a YouTube clip, just search spooky pinball topper. and it will come up. It is brilliant. 3D, colour changing, interacts with the game, large brain in a jar that moves around with the ball. I'm looking forward to getting mine and the best part is it's priced at only $299. Not a bad price compared to some of the other toppers that are out there. If you want one for your machine or just want one, you can contact Spooky Pinball via squirrel at spookypinball.com. catch you all next week and have a good trick or treat this is Ken Rudberg with your Jersey Jack update for Special When Lit now that the 35th annual Pinball Expo is behind us it's time to start unpacking some of the Jersey Jack content at the show there was a presentation by Pat Lawler talking about the history of pinball and his work in it he talked about working with licensors on Willy Wonka and the difference between players on location versus players at home and what they're looking for in a game. If you want to watch it, it's available on YouTube, courtesy of Pinball News. There was also an announcement at the show about some technological advances that Jersey Jack is going to be bringing in upcoming titles. This includes a Bluetooth headphone connectivity, so you can walk up to a game on location, connect to your headphones over Bluetooth, and be able to enjoy the call-outs of the game in a crowded environment. They also announced the long-awaited Wi-Fi connectivity for their upcoming machines, which will allow you to perform automatic updates over Wi-Fi. Both the Wi-Fi connection and the Bluetooth connections will be occurring through a dongle similar to the one that currently exists in Dialed In. This means that you won't need a USB stick to update games going forward. For Special When Lit, this is your Jersey Jack update with Ken Rudberg. Led Zeppelin Quicksilver Rumors and Elvira Code Updates Hey guys, Craig here again, your special and lit Stern News Correspondent. While hot on the heels of the Chicago Pinball Expo, rumors continue to linger on what Stern's next title may be. Much like Sea Witch was the design basis for Stern's The Beatles, rumor has it that Stern has been toying with modernizing another one of their classics, Quicksilver, to the theme of rock music icons, Led Zeppelin. And although Stern cannot confirm or deny these rumors, I thought it may be worth a minute to share a few quick facts about the classic Quicksilver to better understand this rare and popular title. Debuting back in June of 1980 and manufactured by then Stern Electronics, Quicksilver is a solid-state game and currently sits in the Pinside Top 100 at 83, with an average rating of 7.803. Bright, if not slightly bizarre, female alien-themed artwork, and using a very unusual green, orange, and yellow color palette, the title boasts retro laser sound effects, is well known for using creative drop target angles, a fantastic top left spinner gate, and of course, very fast ball speeds for a pin of this era, making it more than a challenge to master. Hence its appropriate name, Quicksilver. With only 1,200 units produced, it is a unique, highly playable, yet elusive pin to find. It also remains one of the most popular classic Stern titles of that era. Now, in other news, Stern has posted a new Elvira code update, V.85, for all models. This code contains significant bug fixes, additional polish, and game enhancements and can be downloaded via old-school Ethernet through the Stern website. That's all for this week, everyone. For Special and Lit, I'm Craig Bobby. Catch you on the flip side. So good hearing from all the correspondents. Want to take a second Let talk about American Pinball So Kaz teased the Game 3 that he seen He did And it not a pinball machine It a redemption machine Now for those of you that don know what a redemption machine is it something that you would commonly see in an arcade maybe like a that would dispense tickets based on a skill or luck game. And those tickets could then be redeemed. Hence the redemption aspect for prizes, whether it be a stuffed animal for nine million tickets or a bouncing ball that would cost you the equivalent of thirty two thousand dollars. I am kind of shocked to hear that, in all honesty. Okay. Why is that? It's called American Pinball, not American Redemption. Hey. Hey, now. Yeah, I was a little surprised to hear that, too.
    10:25
    I like that, though. They're diversifying. I like that, yeah. Okay. And to your point, I was a little shocked that Game 3 was going to be a redemption game. But I can kind of understand that if they think that the market's there for redemption, I mean, who's doing pinball and redemption and manufacturing at the same time? Nobody that I'm aware of. No, Stern used to do it. I mean, they had that Titanic redemption game that the board set was the same as, you know, what was going on in the pinball machines at the same time. That was a Sam. Was that Sam? I think it was Sam. Oh, White Star. That's right. Yeah, I know. But, I mean, as of right now, nobody's doing pinball and nobody's doing redemption as far as coinciding. You are right. And honestly, you will see this topic come up later on down the episode. So I'm going to leave that right there. Oh, come on down the road. I'm wondering if the redemption is there because they find it to be lucrative or if it's there because they're looking to maybe expand, expand. Well, here, think about it. How many how many pinball machines are are being sold in the US right now? Fifteen thousand a year. I mean, that's shooting companies combined. Yeah, I maybe. Yeah. How many redemption games do you think you could probably sell? Probably a lot. Probably a lot more than a lot more than 15. Yeah. So I was in American Pinball because so tonight, by the time you hear this, we have already streamed Oktoberfest because there's an update that went into Oktoberfest and it's got new animations. We're streaming with Josh and Dan from American Pinball. And I went in there to pick up the Oktoberfest and they showed me the redemption game. and it's in prototype status that's going to go out on test soon. And I'm not under NDA, but I don't want to talk about anything that maybe shouldn't be spoken about, but I'll say this. It's freaking massive. I mean, it's not something you're putting in your car to bring into your basement. The thing is massive. Bill, it's massive. It's huge. Can we put it in this studio?
    12:25
    There would be not room for a lot of other things if we added it to the studio. So, yeah, we'll see what happens with it, obviously. But, listen, if the sales of redemption games can help to further push the pinball. That's exactly it. If it drives more funding in the pinball without having to take money out of Ametron, which is the parent company, I get it. So, again, it's a wait-and-see approach, but I was also a little bit surprised to hear about a redemption game. Then we go over to Spooky Pinball, and we had posted the video on our Facebook page. If you don't know how to find us on Facebook, it's real easy. You go to Facebook.com slash Special When Lit Pinball. Or you can go ahead and just type in Special When Lit Pinball Podcast into the search engine at Facebook. And guess who pops up? Special When Lit. Oh, I thought it was going to be Pottery Barn. No, Pottery Barn is not popping up anymore. I fixed that. So they had shown a topper that you can buy as an add-on for Alice Cooper Nightmare Castle. Did you see the topper? I didn't. What? I did not, man. All right. So the topper is pretty awesome. I mean, you could probably jump on Facebook right now on your phone and just look at the picture. You don't have to watch the video. I like the topper because it has a lot going on. Now, part of it looks very homebrew. It looks like parts that you could find lying around your garage. But the way that it's pieced together is like a work of art, and it's comical. It's interactive, which I like. There's a big brain in a bottle, as it was explained. What I really liked about that topper was the use of dials that would go left and right. There's like three or four gauges that are on the bottom, and those arrows kind of fluctuate back and forth. And it just reminded me of some retro kind of robotic crazy thing. Creepy, yeah, like creepy 50s movie. Right, like something like a mad scientist would put together. And I thought that it fit the theme so well. So if you haven't seen it, jump on our Facebook page and check it out. Did you glance at it? I did. I'm actually looking at it now, dude. It kind of looks like something Doc Brown would invent with the dials in the studio where Martin McFly was playing that day. Now, are you watching it move right now? I'm watching it move right now. I see the head spinning. Let's rate the toppers that have been released over the past month or so. We have this spooky pinball topper that just was released. Yes. We have Chicago Gaming Company showed their Medieval Madness topper, which is a three-dimensional topper, heavy on the art, but it's a static topper. I mean, it'll have lighting effects. You also look into Stern Pinball's Black Knight Sword of Rage topper with the interactive knight head on the top. And moving left and right and talking and going up and down, I think, is killer. And then you have the topper that's on the Willy Wonka Collector Edition from Jersey Jack Pinball, which more or less is kind of a detailed piece of art that's on a piece of PETG or Plexi that has lighting effects. So do you have a favorite out of any of those toppers? I know this might not be popular, but that Medieval Madness one is just insane. Yeah, it is. It is pretty impressive. I mean, especially. All right, let's do this. How about this? If you could just use one of those toppers as decoration, not on a pinball machine. So you would just have the topper, and you would just put it on the counter, and it would just be doing its thing. Like, what would you like to have? Probably the Medieval Madness one. Medieval Madness? I know it doesn't move, and that's not crazy. No, it's cool. It doesn't have a spinning head in it. But, yeah, that's just a killer, killer topper. Yeah, it's real tough. I think the least desirable for me, as far as the toppers go, is that plexi kind of looking topper that's on the Willy Wonka Collector Edition. And I hope at some point they up their game on the toppers, because especially if you're going to pay as much money as you are for the Collector Edition, I know they added under-cabinet lighting, which I think is great, and you've got that whole kind of armor package that comes with. And that's awesome. You get the invisible glass. Yeah, the glitter play field with the different artwork and stuff. And that's awesome. But we saw Pirates had a really killer topper. Yeah. And, you know, in between that, like even the ruby red Wizard of Oz 75th anniversary edition. That's my favorite of all the Wizard of Oz. And that's one of my favorite toppers from Jersey Jack. But again, it's not an interactive topper in in the sense that it's a it's a static kind of plexi display. Yeah. I mean, it's I mean, when I think of great toppers to like Attack from Mars remake that Ellie toppers. Unbelievable. How about fishtails? Fishtails. Awesome. Whitewater. Incredible topper. I mean, you think of these toppers, and I'm just, again, if it's one thing, and maybe it's just something that you want to put in.
    16:59
    I don't like that Ghostbusters topper. Really? Not even that? Well, not at $500. I mean, that thing looks like. No, no, no, no. I'm taking price out of this. I'm not focusing on any price on any of these. Even so, like, no, I wasn't thrilled with the Ghostbusters topper. What I would have liked to have seen for a Ghostbusters topper would have been the actual ghost trap that was on top of the machine. And when you were capturing ghosts, it would open up, and then you could have light that would shine to the ceiling. And then when you captured a certain amount of ghosts, it would close. I thought that would really have been cool. But you have the Ecto-1 kind of topper there, and it is what it is. I just wasn't a big fan. I think it's cool. I don't know about $500 cool. No. I don't even know. Like on that one, on Ghostbusters, I'd be at like $200 or less probably. I do because I like because I have the game now I could see the 500. Yeah. I don't know if I'd be happy spending it. Yeah. But also I would like to have like actual spinning like lights instead of like LED simulate. I don't know. I'm not bagging on the Ghostbusters topper. It just doesn't call for me. But I really like this spooky topper because again it's not something that I expected to come out of spooky pinball. And again it looks homebrew ish in the sense that it looks like just pieces of stuff that they threw together. But collectively it looks it looks like a great topper. so i'm really liking what's going on in spooky pinball right now like i said man they keep stepping it up dude so i'm curious to see what happens down the road absolutely let's go over to jersey jack pinball they're talking about bluetooth now stern had talked about bluetooth coming out next year jersey jack seems to have leaped or leapt in front of uh actual revealing this with i think now they're beta testing uh this bluetooth bluetooth technology with certain people that have a Waka. So if, if you're on that beta test or that beta team, that's cool. Because now I guess I'm assuming you're going to be able to, to see how it's going to upload a code all by itself, but then you've got the Bluetooth technology. And this is something that was always kind of strange to me because I don't know how many people are going to bring like a pair of headphones maybe that are going to plug into a, into a headphone jack. Yeah. I didn't see that, but I mean, dude, somebody diehard would. Right. But then I'm thinking how many people are going to be carrying around a pair of Bluetooth headphones. That being said, though, I could see me folding up my Bose Bluetooth noise-canceling headphones, running up to a location play. Now, this is where it's a game-changer because a lot of times you go up to a game on location and you just don't get the full experience that you would at your house. You sit down at your house, right? You get the visuals. You get the audio. You get the feedback. There's a shaker motor. You get the physical play. You go on location, it's sensory overload everywhere else, so it's really hard to kind focus in on what the machine is offering you with audio being such an important thing to be able to connect with Bluetooth now I think makes a lot of sense And in one way something that so simple could also be pretty genius because now you can go to a location and you can get that full audio effect without having to ask for somebody to turn something up or ask somebody to turn something down. It's just there. I like it. Well, how many people do you see walking around with the Bluetooth?
    19:57
    Yeah. I mean, at least in my industry, dude, it seems like everybody's got their earbuds in. Yeah, no, that's true. That's true. I was really more excited by the updates, that you could get the updates without actually having to do it, because I suck at updating games. You know, it's interesting, because that's a point of frustration for a lot of people. And I've seen people just refuse to update their games, or they'll wait until three or four updates go by before they do it, because it's just something that is taxing for them. Or it's like there's too many steps in the process, right? There is, dude, and I'm not good at that. That's definitely a weakness of mine. So, dude, if I could just literally hook that thing to the Wi-Fi and it'll update itself, dude, rock out. And I think that's kind of also ingenious because, dude, you could see what switches and stuff like that are commonly going bad. And it's better for research purposes on how to build a better game, in all honesty, in my thought. Yeah. Because I'm sure that, dude, they're not just updating the code. They're pulling information out of your game, too. Oh, yeah. I'm sure there's going to be some type of information pool or information dump that's going to take place. Yeah. And I think that's great, too, for location games. if somebody that's an operator can tap into their machines via an app to see if there are any error codes or what ball times are they can make adjustments on the fly i mean i think that's huge from an operator standpoint but from a home standpoint just being able to know that your machine is updating at two o'clock in the morning when you're sleeping and it's just going to be ready for you the next day i think it's a pretty cool thing without having to you know load information onto a usb and then take off your back glass i mean these are all risky potentially risky moves i hate doing anytime you take the back glass off because you never know what's going to happen with the back glass i just never never know or the update or anything else well and what killed me was when we had the jurassic park premium and then remember i tried to update it right before and i for whatever reason i wasn't even thinking i downloaded the update for the pro there was black black knight or black knight and i loaded pro code on the black knight le and then the machine didn't even realize that it was an le anymore so it didn't have any control of an upper flipper and at that point i had to re-download a whole new sd card image and redo the whole it was just it was it was a mistake it was user error but that cuts it out it happens it does happen speaking of cern and black knight uh quicksilver being a rumor for release in the sense that it would be then become led zeppelin and similar to what we heard with beatles at one point it was sea witch yeah george gomez made physical changes to the play field they had a kapow uh license for beatles they made it beatles they released it have you heard anything or what are your thoughts on seeing quicksilver being remade into a led zeppelin pin i think everything has its place i'm not a huge led zeppelin fan so to me that's you know neither here nor there i'd be curious to play it and you know i kind of reflect back on beatles where you know i was kind of just very mellow on the whole idea of a beatles pinball machine rethemed on a sea witch yeah but you and i have played it dude and we kind of like the game a lot yeah beatles is fun yeah i still would like to get one in the studio at some point are you a big beatles fan or no no yeah but you had fun on beatles i dude i had a great time on beatles it's nostalgic very yeah well i mean there are very few music themes that get any bigger i don't think than led zeppelin i I mean, that's got to appeal to the masses, especially in the demographic, I would assume, in which these pins are being offered. So I can see Led Zeppelin as being something that makes sense. What I'm trying to figure out is, is it going to be every time we see a classic rock pin now, it's not going to get its own game? With updated modern technology, it's going to be. And what I mean by that, are we going to see a Stern Classic rethemed to a rock theme pin with some tweaks and some added modern day technology? Like, would you like to see a game that's got ramps, or do you want to see single level games that were time period correct with these classic rock themes? I'm kind of indifferent at this point. I really like what they did with Beatles, so I'm not trying to crap on anything else. You know, I want to see how this turns out. You know, we had Gomez on and even talked about, you know, refreshing some of the design flaws. didn't see which to make sure that it shot better yeah so well he also said that they were considering a stern classics line of of remakes and just they're not necessarily cost uh friendly no it's because those drop targets man what's the deal with the drop targets are they like forty thousand dollars like i don't understand they're not cheap okay but still is it going to cost you two thousand dollars to put uh you know seven drop targets into a game like i don't understand i get it that it's more expensive, but is the addition of drop targets going to really just totally devastate the bomb where you're going to have to charge $8,500 for an entry-level pinball machine? Very well could. I know that sounds silly to say, but here, let me ask you this question. Yeah. When's the last time you've seen a newer pinball machine without a shooter rod and it just had a shooter button? Yeah, well, you see it, I mean, from time to time. Not often, though. Yeah, I'm trying to think when was the last time that we did see one of those. Exactly. All right. Go ahead and think about it.
    25:07
    Well, the last one is probably Monster Bash Remake. That doesn't count because it's based off of... Tech from Mars Remake.
    25:15
    Remakes don't count good, sir. I'm just saying. And here. Well, why? They remade them. There's drop targets. I don't know. So you're wondering why they haven't done it, though, right? Not until you just brought it up. I just never really thought about it. I mean, you do have kind of an auto-launch that's on the middle of the lockdown bar now with the action button. Okay. Yes. Okay. But the shooter rod is $15. Right. That whole assembly for the auto launch and stuff like that is very expensive. That doesn't make sense, dude. Actually, you killed my argument with the whole. No, no, no. But I'm thinking, like, all these games, even they have shooter rods, they have auto launch. They do. So it's just an addition of a button, right? Yeah. Okay, go ahead. All right. So, yes, you're right. They do have auto launch. But instead of on the shooter side, correct? but you don't have the rebound on the left side of the game like you did back in the day, like your Terminator giveaway. Like the auto kick out? The auto kick out, right? Okay. Because that's another $25 mech versus a $15 shooter rod. Right, but it's like $20. They're just utilizing one mech instead of having two and a button. How much is a drop target assembly? $50. Okay. So is it $50? Around there. I've never had a price one up. Dude, you have your three targets. I'm going on Pinball Life right now.
    26:29
    Yeah, three bank drop target. Yeah, so a three bank drop target, dude, you have so many different parts to that with the springs, the targets themselves. Dude, even a set of replacement targets for that is like $12. You know, cost on that has to be at least $6, $2 a piece. Then you got the coil. It's not cheap. All right, so here we go. I am on pinballlife.com. So retail, when I say retail, meaning what the average consumer would get this for, right? Yeah. A Sega slash Stern drop target coil and bracket assembly, $29.95. For a three bank. And then the three bank drop target assembly is $200.
    27:12
    Is that really what it is? Yeah, $199.99. Wow, okay. All right. For a three bank assembly. so i now i'm understanding that it's not 30 or 40 bucks but even so i mean i don't know yeah but you throw three of those in there nine you're 600 bucks right but then does that mean the the game needs to increase by two thousand dollars well you know what i mean so that's kind of where i'm if you're adding to it make up for the difference but do you have to make like a certain amount of profit on every part that's going into the machine like i i don't know how that works so So I can see both sides. And I'm not really sure that I'm mad about it or anything either. It's just what I was trying to say is so TNA comes out and it kind of revitalizes the single-level play field with modern technology. Yeah. Right? With how many drop targets, though? Twelve? I don't know. How many drop targets are in TNA? I don't think they're drops. No, they're not drops. They're just standard stand-ups. And that's what they've pretty much gone to is stand-ups because they're cheaper. No, I get it. And a stand-up target is going to give you more action than a drop target because a drop target is going to give a little bit and it's going to slow the ball down. That's why some people prefer pros versus premium and LEs because they prefer the stand-ups other than the drop target. So I get that aspect too. So TNA comes out, revitalizes that kind of single-level play field design. Then Beatles comes out, and then that's kind of like Stern's kind of retro, modernized, single-level play field design, which I thought was cool. But, I mean, is enough enough with the single-level play field designs? we have uh kelts kelts that just came out that's another company that's got a single playfield design so okay that's got a modern touch to it too but it's like are we really just sitting around waiting for modernized old single level playfields i want to see ramps i don't need upper or lower playfields but i want to see ramps i mean and that's just for me personally i like ramps i They're like, dude, beautiful wire forms. Yes.
    29:10
    Cool innovations. Yes. You know. Yes. Wicked shots. I just, like, for instance, if, I'm not the hugest Led Zeppelin fan either, but, like, I can appreciate the music. Yeah. Just like Beatles.
    29:22
    Okay so Led Zeppelin comes out to another single It like oh man It like now this would be the thing I would love to see floyd and just because i think it lends itself musically and light show wise but again i i don want to see another single level design necessarily i like to see like i want to see a modernized pinball machine that pays homage to the retro classic uh touch or classic rock but with ramps you know what i mean i don't want it to be single level not every classic rock pin it's going to be single level no like 38 special dude i could see doing like an older style game on that it just kind of i mean you can kind of go both ways on that right at some point if they keep doing it though it's not gonna it's gonna lose its uh luster now you know here's an interesting thought and again this is all rumor right so this is all rumor but let me throw you this one so let's just say we take that beautiful beautiful uh beatles pinball machine and they re-theme that back into sea witch how many would that sell see i would almost like to see the eastern classics come back out as Stern Classics instead of Stern Classics getting rethemed to classic rock pins going forward. Like, I'd like to see a meteor come out as meteor again. I'd like to see stars come out as stars. But would you want to see it with the, like an LED, alpha numeric display? No. Maybe modernize it a little bit. Right. Just for reliability.
    30:41
    And if George Gomez goes in there and works his magic and he makes a shot a little bit more attainable or a little bit more satisfying great you know that's fine with me i don't think people were as as as so much of sticklers in as far as like how things shot back then or in far as far as how things were shooting back then but but here what do you think the market would be if they came out with sea witch through some generic sea witch animations in there because there's it's not a you know uh ip that has uh those assets and come out with a brand new sea witch without the overhead of a Beatles pin. Yeah, well, I guess... I'd be curious to see how that would do. I think it's already been done, and it's Beatles. Beatles shoots better, and I don't think you can double dip there. No. I mean, you're talking about originally how that would have come out? No, I'm saying, dude, okay, you have the Beatles. Beatles is kind of, you know, probably on its last legs. You already did all the work. Take the spinning record out and remake Sea Witch on that platform. Yeah, so like limited to 100 pins, Limited Sea Witch for $10,000. Yeah, $9,999. $995. 100 of them. And it's just a re-screening some artwork. Yeah, I mean, again, you're looking at somebody that wants that Stern classic without the Beatle re-theme. And without the problems. Speaking of new pins, so I was listening to This Week in Pinball today, and it was with Zach Mennie and Dennis Creasel, and Jeff Patterson from This Week in Pinball is reporting that I think it's Pinball Paparazzi. they were teasing like Stranger Things as a potential release. And I've said this for so long, that's for like two years, a dream theme for me would be Stranger Things. Now I'm also hearing that other people, like I think something with TPF, they've got something kind of with a Stranger Things graphic. If there's something going on with Stranger Things, I need to know about it. And because I need to get on a Stranger Things like immediately, because it's my dream theme, and I hope whoever has it doesn't mess it up because I will not forgive the manufacturer that potentially has Stranger Things if they mess up my dream theme. So will you sign NDA and do this right? Oh, I will happily sign NDA. Just making sure, just making sure, man. No, I know. But, I mean, I'm getting excited now because it's been in the rumors section or whatever, but now people are coming out with teasers, and I'm just saying, it comes out. I'm chomping at the bit I hope it does and I hope it's everything you want it to be Me too I'm already dreaming up Who would I like to be on that pin? Who would I like to do the artwork on that pin? What company would I like to manufacture that pin? It is what it is I would love to see the soundtrack to that If they got some of the great songs from that I've seen episode 1, 2, 3 So we'll see If it's out there, I hope it is And I hope that it's coming to a Ken Cromwell's house soon I hope for you, man.
    33:39
    Let's wrap up this episode. Let's play some Drain It or Save It. Yes. It's time for this week's edition of Drain It or Save It. Drain It or Save It is brought to you by Lermods.com, offering you custom quality playfield mods and lighting for your pinball machine. L-E-R-M-O-D-S. Visit Lermods.com today. And today, because we're commemorating the return of a Bill Webb, Bill is rocking the Drain It or Save It. So what you got for us there, Bill? Dude, I was struggling to come up with these today because it's been so long, man. I had to focus on pinballs for a change. Yeah. All right. So as I was saying earlier, as you had brought up a redemption game from American Pinball. Yes. And this was literally on my list. I could show you when I typed it. No, no. I get it. I had this. Okay.
    34:24
    Obscure pinball machines. Save it or drain it. For example, like your Safe Crackers, your Banzai Runs, your Mushroom Mario Worlds, you know, ice cold beers. Sure. Would you like to see a return of some of that stuff? Yeah, I would save it. I think there's, if done tastefully, there's always going to be somebody that's looking for something that's a little more kitsch or a little something that's out of place, something that appeals to not conforming to what we're used to seeing. So in Safe Cracker, Banzai Run, I mean, those are excellent examples of that. I think there's room for something like that. Will it sell in the numbers that something more mainstream might appeal as far as sales? Probably not, but I think that it's worth the effort. And a company that maybe isn't as large as like a Stern Pinball, I think, could benefit from putting something out there. Again, it would have to be tastefully done and probably have to have a, you know. I agree with you. I think it would have to be something. I'm going to save this as well. I think it would have to be something that's a good intellectual property to make sure that it does okay. Makes sense. Otherwise, I could see it tanking. But I think there's a little more room now for a lot of these kind of obscure kind of fun games that we don't see anymore. I would agree. Cool. All right. So, number two. And this was, I believe, rumored on This Week in Pinball at some point when I was sitting at home. Okay. Motley Crue as a pinball machine. Oh, yeah. I would absolutely save this. And I would hope that it has lots of ramps. Because Motley Crue, I mean, that Netflix special, what the heck was it called? Dirt. The Dirt. Oh, my gosh. I remember sitting down, and I was playing it. I pressed play because it was in my Netflix queue. My wife's reading a book or something next to me, and I'm watching it in bed. In the first 45 seconds, I'm looking over at her, and I'm like, I hope she's not watching me watch this because it was crazy, but it really made me kind of appreciate the band from a party side even more so than originals. I think it would be a great pin. The music's rocking. Again, I'm not this huge Motley Crue fan, groupie guy or anything, But I think that would be an awesome pinball machine, Motley Crue. What about you? Oh, I'd love to see that. Some Dr. Feelgood multi-ball. Oh, man. That would be rocking. It would just have to be like nothing but flashers in the back box for when you accomplish something great. When you say flashers. I mean the light bulbs. The light bulbs. Okay. I'm not talking about the movie. Well, you might get flashers. Things that went on in the movie. You might get more flashers than you bargained for on a Motley Crue pin. And actually, dude, if you did a R-rated mode on that, that could be entertaining. And also very offensive. So you have to be careful with that. All right, so we both saved that.
    37:02
    So this next question really pertains to you and the adventure that you've gone through in the last two and a half, three months. Okay. Converting your garage to a game room. Oh, gosh, still doing it. Save it or drain it? I'm going to save it, but it's been a lot of work and a lot of effort, and I'm still like 75% of the way there. But I think once it's completed, I will have that sense of accomplishment. Right now, it's kind of hard for me to enjoy it because I'm always in here working. And it's kind of like, I remember my mom talking, she used to bake cookies all the time for the holidays and she'd make these cookies. She'd wake up in the middle of the morning and she'd make cookies all day long. And at the end of the day, she didn't want to even look at the cookies because she was just making them all day. It's kind of how I feel like this game room, which sucks because I really wanted to create an environment in which I was going to want to hang out. But right now, I'm just sick of being in here. So I'm glad that I have you in here. But I'm going to save it because when it's all said and done, I think it's going to be well worth it. Studio C. I am going to save it as well. And this is one of those rare weeks where we both agree on everything. But, dude, it looks great. And I can't wait until the weather gets nice again, dude, to open this up and play some pinball. Yeah, no, I agree. Your neighbors are going to think you're out of your mind. But, dude, I look forward to it. Well, I'm actually hosting a Halloween party here on the 31st. So after all the kids go trick-or-treating, I'm going to have the adults over here and break in Studio C. Nice. Good to have you here. Yeah. So we're going to recap this. And number one, obscure pinball machines. You and I both saved it. Saved it, yeah. Number two, Motley Crue is a pinball machine. Both saved it. With flashers. With lots of flashers. Save it. Some LED 555s or whatever they are. Whatever it takes. And converting your garage into an arcade. Or a game room. Yeah, save it. All right. Hey, nicely done, Bill. So we're going to wrap up this episode. We're going to get ready to stream on Flippin' Out Pinball Streaming Network. If you want to catch the action there, you can go to twitch.tv. dot TV slash flip in out to pinball to catch us there. But if you want to catch us on Facebook, we talked about that earlier, a special one, lit pinball podcast, uh, email special when lit pinball podcast at gmail.com. And what's the Instagram bill special one, lit pinball. Perfect. Well, listen, man, it's good to have you back. Missed you. Glad you're back in studio C for the first time. Uh, kind of breaking it in with me. So good to see you, man. Awesome. All right. Well, for bill Webb, I'm Ken Cromwell. Everybody have a good morning. Good afternoon. Good evening. And don't forget to take some time out of your day and play some pinball. Until next week, so long, everybody.