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Episode 39 - Let's Work Together (for a change)

Special When Lit·podcast_episode·1h 6m·analyzed·Feb 20, 2019
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Analysis

claude-haiku-4-5-20251001 · $0.033

TL;DR

Ken and Bill recap interviews, debate upcoming JJP releases, speculate on Stern vaults, and preview TPF.

Summary

Ken Cromwell and Bill Webb discuss recent podcast interviews, pinball acquisitions, and speculation about upcoming releases from Stern and Jersey Jack Pinball. They analyze potential vault releases for Stern, debate the appeal of Jersey Jack's upcoming lineup (Willy Wonka, Toy Story, Guns N' Roses), and express concerns about Pirates of the Caribbean being pulled from production early. They also preview the upcoming Texas Pinball Festival.

Key Claims

  • Tanya Kleiss's code updates have significantly improved Deadpool, making it play substantially better than original release code

    high confidence · Ken Cromwell discussing his newly acquired Deadpool Premium and comparing old code to current updates

  • Great Lakes Pinball has revealed two characters from their upcoming game at a pin expo, with a 2025 target but no firm deadline

    high confidence · Ken and Bill discussing Brett Bruner's interview about Great Lakes Pinball's new game in development

  • Stern plans to release more games in 2025 than any prior year

    medium confidence · Ken citing comments from industry contacts about 2025 being a 'blockbuster year' for Stern with more game reveals

  • Jersey Jack Pinball has confirmed a release schedule of Willy Wonka, followed by Toy Story, then Guns N' Roses

    high confidence · Ken citing Kaneda's Pinball Podcast report confirming the JJP release order

  • Pirates of the Caribbean production will end in March to make room for Wizard of Oz Yellow Brick Road Edition (limited to 250 units)

    high confidence · Ken discussing JJP's production line management and Yellow Brick Road Edition specification

  • Eric Minyer may be involved with the Guns N' Roses release

    medium confidence · Ken stating 'the rumor is that Eric Minyer might be on that Guns N' Roses release'

  • Stern released AC/DC Lucy package as a vault release, described as the rarest of all AC/DC variants

    high confidence · Bill and Ken discussing AC/DC re-releases and the Lucy package being vaulted

  • Deadpool Premium units can be acquired at approximately the same price point as previous LE models

    medium confidence · Ken explaining his decision to trade LE for Premium due to pricing considerations

Notable Quotes

  • “And the more the time goes on, this is like one of those not sleeper hits, but it's really come along with code and the shots are good and everything.”

    Bill Webb @ ~8:30 — Assessment of Deadpool's improvement trajectory with code updates, indicating the game has exceeded initial expectations

  • “They're not saying a pin's going to be done in two weeks, so that's pretty cool. It could be tomorrow. It could be December 31st. It sounds like they're taking it in stride.”

    Ken Cromwell @ ~23:45 — Praise for Great Lakes Pinball's realistic production timeline approach, contrasting with industry tendency to overpromise

  • “I prefer it that way i like to experience reveal with everybody else versus having it tainted and when i say tainted i mean kind of ruined like there's not a surprise it's leaked”

    Ken Cromwell @ ~35:15 — Expresses preference for official reveals over leaks, noting how leaked information diminishes reveal surprise

  • “if I'm Stern and again, I'm not a pinball businessman, but if I know that I'm sitting on potential gold mines like sure fire releases with Tron or with the Lord of the Rings, I think I'm saving those for a rainy day”

    Bill Webb @ ~41:00 — Strategic speculation about Stern's vault title decisions and business logic behind holding premium IPs

  • “one side of me thinks that that game was never really given a chance to kind of hit full steam”

    Ken Cromwell @ ~77:30 — Critical observation about Pirates of the Caribbean's production timeline and market impact, paralleling Dialed-In's experience

  • “I think six to eight weeks is about as long as you can go before somebody's looking for the next best thing or before another manufacturer releases a pin or before you just lose interest lose steam on it”

    Bill Webb @ ~83:00 — Industry insight on optimal production-to-reveal cycle timing for maintaining buyer interest

  • “in true Ken fashion, if it's worth owning once, it's worth owning twice. At least.”

    Bill Webb — Humorous character note about Ken's collecting philosophy and pattern of re-acquiring machines

Entities

Ken CromwellpersonBill WebbpersonZachary MinneypersonTanya KleisspersonBrett BrunerpersonGreg FrerespersonStephen MartinpersonChris FranchipersonJack Danger

Signals

  • ?

    code_update: Tanya Kleiss's code updates for Deadpool have significantly improved game progression, shot registration, and overall playability since original release

    high · Ken describes the improvement as 'unbelievable' and notes most shots now register properly when hit as intended, particularly the right ramp to katana save sequence

  • ?

    product_strategy: Jersey Jack Pinball managing production lines strategically, pulling Pirates of the Caribbean in March to introduce Wizard of Oz Yellow Brick Road Edition (250 units) before Willy Wonka reveal

    high · Ken discusses the production timeline, noting JJP's ability to swap titles on the line when it makes sense for sales and market positioning

  • ?

    rumor_hype: Speculation about Stern vault releases with James Bond, Jaws, World Poker Tour, Tron, and Lord of the Rings mentioned but unconfirmed

    low · Bill mentions hearing rumors about James Bond and Jaws, Ken declines to discuss further vault speculation, noting Stern has kept details under wraps better than usual

  • ?

    announcement: Jersey Jack Pinball release schedule officially confirmed as Willy Wonka, Toy Story, then Guns N' Roses

    high · Ken cites Kaneda's Pinball Podcast confirmation of the complete JJP release order

  • $

    market_signal: Data East Guns N' Roses secondary market prices rising into $6,000-$9,000 range with modded examples commanding premium prices

    high · Bill notes seeing Data East versions listed in the $6,000 range with prototype playfields reaching $8,000-$9,000

Transcript

groq_whisper · $0.200

0:00
coming at you out of st charles illinois the special when lit pinball podcast starts now hey pinball and welcome to episode 39 of the special windlet pinball podcast my name is ken cromwell and i'm bill webb hey bill welcome back to reality we are we've had interviews the last few weeks so we're going to do a little bit of housekeeping early to get caught up with uh what we've been doing and then we're going to roll into some pinball action does that sound good absolutely i'm so it's so weird not having somebody like here by near within it's like we have not had an opportunity to talk about ourselves man and as podcasters we should be self-centered and want to talk about ourselves well maybe not but you know whatever more about that later yeah whatever makes for good entertainment i guess yeah it's good times um what's been happening with you anything any new acquisitions anything going on pinball wise Well, we'll catch up with the cabin at the Whirlwind Update later in the show. No, just living life, dealing with crazy snow in here, Chicago. Yeah, yeah. You know, there was some bad news in Aurora, Illinois on Friday. So our thoughts and prayers go out to the families. Yeah, other than that, I mean, just kind of living. Yeah, how about you? That's good. What am I staring at right now? Yeah, so the Deadpool LE I had had left, and then I was in the hunt for a Deadpool Premium just because I felt more comfortable having money tied up into a Deadpool premium versus the LE. So I was able to acquire a Deadpool premium. New in box, compliments of Mr. Zachary Minney. Him and his wife, Nicole, are the new owners of Flippin' Out Pinball. So Zach actually was in the area, so he dropped off my pin, which was the Deadpool, and then our buddy Steve picked up a Star Wars Pro. So Zach dropped both of those off up here. So it was good to see him, and it was nice to have pinball. I appreciated it. And it looks good. Yeah, man, I missed it because I haven't had it in, I don't know, six, seven weeks probably. And I had played old code on it, like almost original code. So to see what Tanya O'Clyce has done with the code and the progression of the game, it's unbelievable, man. It's even better than what I originally had thought. And I've got this one dialed in so perfectly that most all my shots are registering. And if you hit the shot how it's supposed to be shot, especially that right ramp shot that feeds the left and then goes into the katana save, it's rocking out, man. I'm pumped. You know what surprises me is that when this was first released, we thought it was cool, thought it would do well. And the more the time goes on, this is like one of those not sleeper hits, but it's really come along with code and the shots are good and everything. I mean, it's a surprise. You know, when you said you were going to get another one, I was like, wow, okay. Well, the only reason I let the LE out of the house was because, again, I just don't need an LE. I mean, that's just me. You know, I figure if I can go ahead and get a premium in here, I've got a little bit of money left over to put towards something else. So that was kind of my approach. Couldn't be happier. I was literally down here two nights ago and just sat down and played Deadpool for like three hours. and so many different ways to approach scoring. And we're not going to get into all that. But anyways, I'm happy to have it back. My kids are happy to have it back. And in true Ken fashion, if it's worth owning once, it's worth owning twice. At least. We went through this the other day. There's at least six or seven pins that I've owned twice already. And I don't know, a little over 10 years of collecting, but still.
@ ~6:45
person
Pat Lawlorperson
Steve Richieperson
Eric Minyerperson
Stern Pinballcompany
Jersey Jack Pinballcompany
Great Lakes Pinballcompany
Flippin' Out Pinballcompany
Deadpoolgame
Willy Wonkagame
Toy Storygame
Guns N' Rosesgame
Pirates of the Caribbeangame
Wizard of Oz Yellow Brick Road Editiongame
Elvira 3game
Texas Pinball Festivalevent
  • ?

    design_philosophy: Jersey Jack's approach differs from Stern: smaller production runs, strategic line changes, but not matching Stern's production frequency

    high · Ken and Bill discuss JJP's ability to swap lines and manage production differently from Stern, noting machines can return to production if parts and demand exist

  • ~

    sentiment_shift: Deadpool initially received as 'cool' has evolved into a highly regarded title through code improvements and player appreciation

    high · Bill describes Deadpool as improving over time to become 'one of those not sleeper hits' that has 'really come along'

  • ?

    industry_signal: Industry insight that 6-8 week window between production and official reveal is optimal before buyer interest or competitor releases diminish excitement

    medium · Bill articulates the market timing challenge: players lose interest if reveals are too far from availability

  • ?

    product_concern: Pirates of the Caribbean experiencing abbreviated production run despite reportedly strong reception, denying game full market potential

    high · Ken expresses disappointment that Pirates is being 'pulled in March' and won't achieve 'full steam,' paralleling Dialed-In's experience

  • ?

    personnel_signal: Eric Minyer rumored to be involved with Jersey Jack Pinball's Guns N' Roses design

    medium · Ken states 'the rumor is that Eric Minyer might be on that Guns N' Roses release' but provides no source

  • ?

    community_signal: Pinball accessibility for disabled players generating positive community response with multiple listeners sharing custom designs for family members

    high · Ken notes several community members contacted after Brett Bruner interview with accessibility concerns, sharing their own custom accessibility projects

  • ?

    event_signal: Texas Pinball Festival approximately 30 days away with Ken and Bill attending, anticipating Twippies awards ceremony Saturday night

    high · Ken states 'we're like around 30 days out from TPF' and references presenting an award at the Twippies Saturday night event

    • 3:35
    Let's focus back here. I wanted to touch on the last couple of interviews that we had done because what happens is when we do an interview, we kind of wrap it up and that's it. Yep. We don't have time to really comment on it. We try to keep these episodes to around an hour. And especially when they run back to back to back. It's hard to interject and reflect on stuff when you have multiple interviews like that. It is hard. So when we think back, like our last couple interviews, we had Brett Bruner on from Great Lakes Pinball. And then just recently we had Greg Freres and Stephen Martin of Stern from the art department. Anything that Brent said that stuck out to you or anything that you wanted to comment on in regards to his involvement in the new company, Great Lakes Pinball? I look forward to seeing what they come to market with. I think that the challenges of him playing pinball with his vision is just incredible that they have found a way to make it work. Yeah, and for those of you that might not have heard the interview, Brent is one of the co-founders at Great Lakes Pinball, but he's also legally blind. Yes. But, you know, he's a wedding DJ. He plays pinball. He's got ways around that so it doesn't hold him back. Just incredible. It is incredible. And, you know, I think that was a great interview and really enjoyed speaking with him. And I really liked our conversations about how to make pinball more accessible to people that have – Yeah, like any type of disability or physical disability where they're not able to play pinball. Maybe they've lost a limb or they don't have use of a hand or an arm. And, in fact, I'm glad that you brought that up because since that show, we've had several people that have contacted us and had expressed how happy they were that we even brought it up. But showing us concepts of things that they've designed for family members and what's worked out well. So it's fun to see that these projects, the people, we're not the only people that had this initiative. So we'll see where it goes as far as bringing something to market. But it's out there. There are people that are thinking, and they're already ahead of us. So that's pretty awesome. Yeah, absolutely incredible. Thank you guys for taking it upon yourself and making it more accessible. You know, and all that being said, back to business with them, Great Lakes Pinball, I'm interested to see what happens. I know that they have now two characters revealed from their pin expose. and curious to see obviously what happens. They didn't set themselves an unrealistic deadline as far as getting anything completed because right now it's just 2019 is what they're looking at. Who knows if it'll be sooner or later, but hey, you know what? They're not saying a pin's going to be done in two weeks, so that's pretty cool. It could be tomorrow. It could be December 31st. It sounds like they're taking it in stride, and they're not going to overextend themselves and rush anything, so I think that's super important. When we look at the other interview last week, Greg Ferreris and Stephen Martin, these guys coming in, kind of the background guys at Stern in that art department. And we hear about Zombie Yeti and we hear about Christopher Franchi and their art packages. But it was kind of cool to talk to the guys that kind of give art direction there. And they're able to bring these guys' ideas to fruition and make them make better sense on a pinball machine, whether it be a play field or a cabinet. Or plastics. Plastics. Exactly. Super fun stories. Greg's been around for a long time. He's my personal favorite as far as like a pinball artist goes. And he's been around forever. So if you guys haven't had an opportunity to listen to that again, it's an hour, but pretty cool stories. I liked how he was able to comment a little bit on Avira 3 because that's kind of a game that seems to have been confirmed but lost in the shuffle. And I didn't feel comfortable asking him when we're going to see it. And obviously, I don't think he would have told us when. I'm really hoping 2019. I'm hoping it's coming out this year. And it sounds like with the amount of work that's been involved with this pin and bringing it to the masses, Yeah, I would not say that it's out of line to expect this game to be revealed this year at some time. I'd hope so. I mean, that's definitely an anticipated title. I'd love to see it around Expo time, maybe not at Expo, but I think that's an excellent Halloween-themed kind of pinball machine. They released that thing in August. Yeah, that would be really, really cool. Get them in people's hands by September. Yeah, I would love to have that. I'm still waiting for Munsters Pro to get here. I'm on the second run of Pros, So I don't know that it makes sense to do back-to-back kind of horror releases. Like, would you go Munsters and then Elvira? Or wouldn't it make sense to kind of split that up with putting something else in between that, Munsters and Elvira? I definitely would. And you know what? I mean, there's rumors of other stuff that's coming out, too. What rumors are you hearing? Like, we've heard, what, James Bond? We've heard Jaws. Yeah. I haven't heard that as far as, like, anything being confirmed. So I don't know. I mean, I know, like, James Bond and Jaws, you've always heard talked about. Yeah. I mean, there's other ones, too, but, you know, I don't even want to get into that. So we'll see what happens. Come on, Bill. What else have you been hearing? I've heard nothing. The My Little Pony? Nothing. No. You've heard nothing? I've heard My Little Pony. My sources have told me nothing.
    8:43
    No. But, I mean, there is stuff in the works. I mean, everyone that we've talked to has said 2019 is going to be the blockbuster year for Stern. More games revealed from Stern than any other year. so there's definitely stuff in the pipeline you know just waiting to see what's next no well you sit down you try to figure out the cornerstone games and that so we had uh monsters was released we're looking for steve richie for a game to come out from him i think someone rumored that it was getaway 3 or something i've heard getaway 3 i've heard black knight 3000 i've heard some other original theme um who knows i will say this stern has done an excellent job as far as keeping this kind of stuff under wraps at this point because i think normally we would already anticipate what the next title is going to be yep and there's nothing out there that's for certain so i and i prefer it that way i like to experience reveal with everybody else versus having it tainted and when i say tainted i mean kind of ruined like there's not a surprise it's leaked and it's like oh man okay um i know this and now i have to wait for the official reveal and then you kind of get antsy so it's exciting that we don't know but we are expecting elvira 3 right hopefully this year you would assume there's going to be a vault release coming this year. I think every year people speculate Tron and Lord of the Rings. But let me ask you this. I heard it was World Poker Tour. Did you really? No. Oh, gosh. But everyone in the car just stopped and hit the brakes saying WTF. Yeah, I don't know that World Poker Tour is on the vault title list. But go ahead. I'm sorry to interrupt you. No, no, you're good, man. At the expense of humor. I was just thinking if I'm stern and again, I'm not a pinball businessman, but if I know that I'm sitting on potential to gold mines like sure fire releases with with a Tron or with the Lord of the Rings, I think I'm saving those for a rainy day. If it makes sense to align the license, the renewal of the license, because if you're going to be completely busy this year with what you anticipate to be, you know, record sales numbers, do you really need to throw in a vault that's going to blow the doors off as well? Not really, because then you're just competing with yourself. Well, and you're always competing with yourself and you're competing against yourself from the prior year and things like that. I guess it looks appealing for anybody that might want to acquire Stern. If the company is up for sale, you want to inflate those numbers.
    11:07
    But if they had a pin that just didn't go over very well or maybe wasn't generally accepted. Well-received. Right. That's when it's like, hey, all right, well, let's get the Lord of the Rings license and let's re-vault. Let's vault that. Let's get Tron. I mean, it just seems like it's a safe way to know that you're going to sell a couple thousand pins. So if there was a vault, what do you think it would be? I don't know. that's a great question i i mean this year we kind of saw acdc kind of released again and it was kind of odd because we're like the lucy package was considered to be the most rare package of all the acdc releases to see that vaulted kind of made sense but it seemed like it was too new for me to consider it like a vault when i think of a vault i think of something that i haven't seen produced in uh you know i don't know five six ten years something like that yeah um so i I don't know what I would consider what would be a next vault. I'm almost afraid to guess. But I don't think you can really go back that far because of the fact that then the cost of the parts goes up because you're not ordering thousands of SAM systems. True.
    12:10
    And funny that we bring this up because it was last year around this time that you were talking about buying an ACDC Premium, re-stickering it with the Lucy stickers. Yep. And then what gets announced like two weeks later? Yeah, the Lucy. The Lucy. You're like, well, I don't want to do that now. Yeah, so I took a pass on that one. So it wouldn't surprise me if timeline-wise we kind of line up for the next game to be a vault release, now that I think about it. I don't know. I just don't know what would be vaulted. Like, let me ask you, do you think like a Ripley's, believe it or not, would make a vault edition that would people – I've heard a lot of good things about Ripley's and having it allowed to shoot at. It's a Pat Lawler game.
    12:49
    I'm just trying to think off the top of my head like other licensed. I mean, you're probably not going to see like a Family Guy reboot or anything like that, right? I wouldn't think so, but you never know. I mean, they probably have lower playfield parts, though, right now. That's true. Right. So you could knock out some extra Stewie pinball playfields. No, that's true. You know what? Dude, it could be anything from, well, they've done, I was going to say Spider-Man, but they've already done that one. Yeah, Spider-Man Paul. It's already there.
    13:17
    Transformers. I don't see that one happening. I just don't. Yeah. I mean, Transformers, I don't know that there's demand for them to vault Transformers right now. I don't think there would be. You know, ACDC kind of called on a few different fronts. The music front, great layout, Steve Ritchie design. Didn't they kind of re-pop Star Trek a little bit too? Wasn't there kind of like a little mini re-release of Star Trek? Or was it like a last call before the license went down? I'm trying to remember. I thought it was a last call before the license. Okay. So, I don't know. We'll see. We can only guess. And, you know, my guess is that it's not going to be Tron or Lord of the Rings. I'd be happy to be wrong because I wouldn't mind a Lord of the Rings. I'm not so much into Tron, but I'd like to have a new Lord of the Rings. And I would hope that there would be some type of additions to a Lord of the Rings. I would love to see a different art package on a Lord of the Rings. I think Chris Franchi would kill Lord of the Rings if he kind of redid it. That being said, I don't know that he's motivated to do that. I don't know if that's a theme that calls to him, that kind of genre. but could you imagine like a Lord of the Rings or even like if you had like a Ghostbusters or something that was a classic DMD with LCD technology and movie clips and stuff would be pretty cool so if I had a vote of what would be my favorite it would be Ghostbusters with the DMD flipper gap fixed now that would be very interesting because I don't know that adjusting that flipper gap would throw off the whole geometry of the game or not but that would be appealing to me fixing the flipper gap on a Ghostbusters? I think so. I mean, I think the artwork was great on it to begin with. I mean, you definitely have to tweak some things. Yeah, Zombie Yeti killed the artwork on Ghostbusters, no doubt. Yeah, I love that. I mean, I literally don't have the machine, but I got a play field thanks to my friend Ken. Hey, there you go. You know, I think that one would actually be a really, really, really cool game. Well, it's fun to speculate to see what happens. And one company we don't have to speculate as much about is Jersey Jack Pinball. Yes. There's been a lot of chatter about some games that are in the pipeline. And Jack himself has kind of confirmed that, hey, we're going to show two games this year. Supposedly we've got, and this is not one of them, but the Wizard of Oz Yellow Brick Road Edition.
    15:22
    Super curious to see that game. Which is, I think, going to be limited to 250 units. And I think Canada's Pinball Podcast reported that he's got confirmation on the release schedule, which is going to be Willy Wonka up next, followed by Toy Story, and then closing out with Guns N' Roses. Now, let me ask you this, Bill. Between the three titles, Willy Wonka, Toy Story, and Guns N' Roses, if you had to rate those one through three on games that you would like to see in your game room, what would they be with one being the most desirable? Willy Wonka, Toy Story, then Guns N' Roses. Okay, well, coincidentally, that's the release date. Exactly.
    16:02
    Toy Story, I was just old enough where I wouldn't go watch it, and my daughter's not old enough to watch it, so I've never really watched it. Not that it's a bad movie or whatever. I just haven't been exposed to it. There's still some creepy. Like, I remember as a kid watching Willy Wonka probably like 800 times. Well, I was talking about Toy Story. Oh, you're talking about Toy Story? Yeah. I was talking about Willy Wonka. Oh, no, no. Yeah, I kind of went backwards there. So with Toy Story, that one didn't really, you know, I could see that one being the number one choice of most people. But it doesn call me because I never really watched it which is why Willy Wonka would kind of win the vote there Okay so and it interesting because I would absolutely have Toy Story number one Willy Wonka number two followed by Guns N Roses number three And so your daughter's three. Correct. My kids are like 13 and nine and four. So when Toy Story kind of got rolling, my 13-year-old was watching that. So I kind of evolved with Toy Story with all my kids. And they're still favorite movies. Like if it happens to come on, like if we're watching Disney Junior or something like that and the Toy Story movie comes on as like a replay, like it doesn't matter where you're at. You can kind of sit down and you can kind of watch the Toy Story movies. So that I think would be like a killer, killer theme. And even though my kids are growing older, we could all share in the memories of knowing that we watched that together. And it's fun. It's it's it's timeless. Even as an adult, I can appreciate it. Yeah. Willy Wonka, not as much, just because it just isn't exciting to me as far as, like, I don't have awesome memories sitting down watching Willy Wonka. That's one of those movies where if it was on, and it was on quite a bit, I don't know that I've really watched it from start to finish too many times. It either got too far into it where I had to stop watching it as a kid or I picked it up in the middle. When you combine all that stuff, I've watched it probably 50 times.
    17:50
    But I think it lends itself well to cool themes and modes with the golden ticket. Oh, yeah, it's in the factory. Yeah, it's just kind of creepy cool, kind of like Wizard of Oz. It was kind of creepy as a kid, like with the flying monkeys freaked me out a little bit.
    18:03
    Oh, especially as a kid. Those flying monkeys scared the snot out of you. So that's why I kind of like that a little more than Toy Story. Not saying that it wouldn't be a bad theme. It's not one that calls me. It's just that theme doesn't call me. But that theme calls me more than a lot of other themes. Sure. All right. Now, Guns N' Roses would be bringing up the rear on that for both of us. And it's not that I don't think Guns N' Roses is a cool theme for a pinball machine, but it's just like it's been done. I don't know that I need to have another Guns N' Roses pinball machine coming my way before I can think of some other music pins that I'd like to see in the pipeline first. Sir Mix-A-Lot. Sir, is that for you? Yeah, yeah. Okay. I like big pins, and I cannot lie. Oh, hey-o! No, that's it. You know what? Here, I could see the Toy Story for me more than Guns N' Roses only because of the fact that it is more family friendly. So that's why I kind of like it. And Guns N' Roses, I like their music. I like Guns N' Roses' music too. Yeah, but that would be more of a me pin than a family pin. And I'm getting at the point now where my daughter comes down and she doesn't know what she's doing, but she's starting to hit the plunger and the start button. Absolutely. And I know these pins aren't geared towards our kids necessarily. um well even toy story is kind of appeals to adults that are our age yeah and older and younger but uh yeah i don't know i i think the difference being jersey jack would absolutely i mean without a doubt i i think that they would be able to um put forth a better design or something that's a little more modern than the original guns and roses not that the original is bad but you know it'll feel antiquated, I think, in comparison to a new release, Jersey Jack, Guns and Roses. Well, it was time period correct when it was released. Yeah, right. You know, it'd be like taking T2 and having somebody do a movie off of T2 now. Right. You know, or Ghostbusters. If they made a Ghostbusters pin in 1989, how would it look? You know, if it looked like Batman, the pin, the original one with Michael Keaton, it's not that it's bad, it's just... It's just a different era now. I mean... Different era. Right. You know, but you got... But Guns N' Roses, it's not like they've been retouring, right? I mean, Axl Rose and Slash and everybody's kind of back together. Yeah. But it's like, are they really killing it on the charts with new releases or anything like that? I mean, you're still, in my opinion, you have to focus on that classic Guns N' Roses era of pinball and music. You're not going to be throwing in new releases for Guns N' Roses. But ACDC hasn't come out with a whole lot either, though. Right, but there was not another ACDC machine prior to the last ACDC. You know what I mean? So that's kind of where I'm going. And it's like, are you going to rehash?
    20:40
    And it's, I guess it's already decided. So I'm not talking negatively against it. No, no, no. But it's like, all right, we already have a Guns N' Roses that's decent. Like, I mean, can we do something else? I don't know. You know, here, one other sidebar to be grateful for is that with that said, anyone that can't, you know, that doesn't want to spend five grand on the Data East version. Oh, there are more. Did you see, like, there's, they're listed higher now, the Data East. There are some that are listed like in the $6,000 range. There's one that was on Pinside that I saw today, and it had like a prototype play field, and it had some mods. And I want to say, was it like $8,000 or $9,000? I'll have to look at the thread. So ask yourself, would you rather have a $8,000 or $9,000 prototype? No. Or would you rather have an $8,000 or $9,000 standard edition Jersey Jack Guns N' Roses? Well, and then you ask yourself, do you want an $8,000 or $9,000 limited edition Guns N' Roses, or do you want two Stern Pros for about the same price? I mean, you can always kind of make something else sound like the grass is greener. I just personally, for me, I would prefer to see something different than Guns N' Roses, but I think what they can do with it would be impressive. Absolutely. No question or no argument there. And then if that makes sense. I guess the rumor is that Eric Minyer might be on that Guns N' Roses release, which is cool because with Pirates now confirmed coming off the line in March, I've got really mixed feelings on that because one side of me thinks that game was never really given a chance to kind of hit full steam. and it kind of reminded me a little bit about the dialed-in release. When dialed-in rolled out, people didn't really start appreciating it until it was sales had increased. Yeah, and people realized what a great shooting pin that it was. And then the problem was with dialed-in, before it was able to kind of even gain more traction, you had Pirates of the Caribbean that was announced. So people were always – they didn't want to buy a pin and then risk losing what could be something cooler that was coming out. And then when Pirates came out, there were some things that had delayed the full manufacturing release schedule. And now it seems like the owners of Pirates of the Caribbean are so happy with it. And this is another pin that it seems like it's not going to be given its full justice as far as a release schedule and allowing it to get into full production. And now it's going to be pulled in March. And I assume you're going to see the Yellow Brick Road Edition by Wizard of Oz jump on that line. And while they're pumping out those $250, I assume you're setting up the line for Willy Wonka, which should be revealed at some point this summer, I would assume. Because now you've got to release another pin. And I think Expo has been a pretty popular place for Jersey Jack the last couple years to reveal pins between Dialed In and Pirates of the Caribbean. So now do they show Willy Wonka at Expo? Well, if you think about it, I mean, if they ran Willy Wonka from April to September, showed Toy Story in October at Expo and said, hey, listen. Right. They're in boxes. They're ready to ship for Christmas. Yep. You know, if there was a pin that might blow out for Christmas, I think that one might be it. You're agreeing with me on my second point is where I'm disappointed that you're not going to see pirates kind of gain full steam. I can understand the decision to do so because now you're kind of being responsible. You're running a safe title that you know is going to sell with a limited 250 units. While you're getting those, you're keeping the line going. You're being responsible by setting up that line for Willy Wonka. Yep. So now you don't have Pirates on the line and Wizard of Oz and then reveal Willy Wonka and have these two games on the line and then try to figure it out. now you've got a line that you're setting up so that hopefully you're starting production so by the time it's released you can get a game you know with within i i dude i really think you gotta be within yeah i think six to eight weeks is about as long as you can go before somebody's looking for the next best thing or before another manufacturer releases a pin or before you just lose interest lose steam on it right and it happens and that said you know that doesn't I hope that they don't kill the run of the game. I really don't. I'm sorry, let me rephrase this. Seize production on it in general. I would love to see it still online at some point and be one of their current titles. You're right, and it can come back on the line. It's just, are you going to reset up a line again to run Pirates? If you have parts and there's demand, absolutely it makes sense to put it back on because you see several editions of Hobbit and Wizard of Oz. So these can pop in and off the line. And it sounds like I've not been to Jersey Jack pinball, but it sounds like they've got the ability to set up a line and get it going and they can change that line. Are they putting up pins with the frequency that Stern pinball is? No, but they can change the line when it makes sense for them. Well, here, let's even backtrack this. Let's go, you know, everyone, we were talking about vaults with Stern a minute ago. What's a great 90s title from Stern that you could vault? Or Data East, I'm sorry. Jurassic Park would be one that comes to mind I don't know if people are going to spend that kind of money but those are creeping up in value yeah but Jurassic Park you can get in the threes Guns N' Roses I don't think they'd get the license if it's true that Guns N' Roses is but I mean there are other games you never know yeah I mean you don't know and you know Pinball's thrown curveballs to us before so again it's a podcast it's discussion we're open for speculation and we'll see what happens So, yeah, that's our speculation for Stern's vaulted edition is Jurassic Park. Well, that is Bill Webb. That's specialwindlippingballpodcast.gmail.com. Attention, Bill Webb, Jurassic Park vault in the header. I'll make sure that those all get forwarded to you, buddy. That's good.
    26:52
    I wanted to talk about TPF. So it's the countdown to TPF. As we record this, I think we're like around 30 days out from TPF, and I'm pretty pumped up. It's starting to become a reality that we're going to be out of here in about four, four and a half weeks. And hopefully the weather is over like 40 degrees. Yeah, especially if we're going to Texas, it better be over 60. Yeah, we'll see. I'm just excited to get down there. I'm excited to hang out with some people that I haven't seen in a long time. I'm excited to hang out with some people I've never met. Absolutely. But we've interacted with, certainly. So it's going to be good all around. Looking forward to the Twippies, which will be that Saturday night. Heard great things about the show. So, yeah, the Twippies, definitely. We really look forward to that. We're still presenting an award, I guess, for the Twippies. We don't know what it is, but I'm looking forward to see what we're presenting. And I'm just looking forward to see everybody kind of get up on that podium, make an acceptance speech, and walk away with some hardware. That is going to be fun. Yeah, and you know what? The show itself, everyone that we've talked to said that it's a great show.
    27:55
    Yeah, nobody says TPF sucks. I've never heard it. I haven't heard that. And everyone that we've talked to recently that's been to TPF says, you know, great things. It's bigger. There's more stuff. There's, you know. I guess the only thing that I'm kind of almost dreading now is that we're not driving down there just in case we want to bring stuff back. Right. But. Yeah, I see that can be dangerous. I'm almost happy that we're not driving down there and that we can bring stuff back. I'm traveling light, man. We had this conversation. I'm going down there with as little as possible and hopefully coming back with less. I'm bringing stuff that's disposable, man. Even potentially clothes. Wow. Wow, you're serious on that, huh? I'm serious, man. I'm just traveling light, man. I get it. Now, I will not be wearing the same clothes on consecutive days. Yes. But, you know, rumor on the street is that I might be coming back with less clothes than I went down with. And this isn't a rumor. I'll probably be packing heavy. Absolutely. That's how the bill web rolls. I love it. Yeah. So we're getting excited for Texas. Are you ready to play some Drain It or Save It? Absolutely. All right, let's do it.
    29:02
    It's time for this week's edition of Drain It or Save It. Drain It or Save It is brought to you by Lermods.com. Lermods specializes in custom quality pinball playfield lighting and mods for your machine. L-E-R-M-O-D-S. Visit Lermods.com today. For those of you that haven't listened to Drain It or Save It, essentially we're going to bring up three topics. I'm going to give Bill and myself each 60 seconds to say that we would drain it, meaning we don't agree with the topic, or save it, meaning that we do agree with the topic or that we generally support the topic. So the first item on the docket here today for drain it or save it, Bill, high-end cabinet side art like Radcals or like Buttercabs, which are clear-coated cabinets, etc. Is it worth the money, drain it or save it? If you can afford it, I like it, so I'd save it. is needed? Well, you don't need a pinball machine. So, I mean, there's your argue there. Yeah, I'm going to save this also. I think that the thing that's important with that, I appreciate kind of fine little attention to detail. And even though you might not fully appreciate a Radcal or like a butter cabinet because it's in between your row, just knowing that it's there, just knowing that when you reach to the left and the right and you caress that flipper button and that your fingertips are rubbing on something that's high end, I dig it. And, you know, is the cost worth what you're ultimately getting? That's open for discussion. But if, you know, something that makes you, gives you some enjoyment costs a little bit more than something that maybe doesn't give you as much enjoyment, then I'm down with it. So I am absolutely going to save high-end cabinet side art, such as radcales and buttercats. Second one, factory-installed Mylar on Pinball Playfieldsville. Dun-dun-dun. I have to save it. I know there's probably going to be some people that don't agree with it. If it's on a System 11, if you go to peel it, yeah, you're opening up a can of worms. But I don't see it as a big deal unless you're trying to restore a playfield. And at that point, I think there's enough playfields out now that you could just buy a new playfield for it.
    31:10
    Between Pinbots and High Speeds and Whirlwind playfields now and Earthshaker, Elvira, you can buy all those playfields. They might have it on there. And I really, you know, I would love to have a brand new old stock play field from Williams for any one of those games. Chances are that aren't likely anymore. But, you know, if it saves the game, you know, leave it on.
    31:33
    So you save it? I would save it. Okay. I'm going to save this one also. I think that Mylar is an affordable way to protect the play field.
    31:41
    And, you know, I think where a lot of people have problems with Mylar are on the older games. or because they think it's a shortcut and a cost-cutting measure. I think removing mylar can be tricky, especially on old games, and you don't want to ruin the original artwork. So usually if it looks decent, you kind of keep it intact. Nothing can be worse than pulling up some mylar and taking some paint off of a pinball play field. That's horrible. And especially on the inserts, because that's where when you start pulling that stuff, it comes off. Sure. And it brings up the question, it's like, all right, well, if you know those are wear areas, what can you do? And that's where I think, like, Cliffy Protectors are, you know, should be in just about every game. Like, scoops and outholds, anything where you know it's going to be wear, put a Cliffy there. But going back to the Mylar, I'm going to save it. I mean, you'd rather have some Mylar down than have Playfield worn to the wood. So it's a necessary evil. And you know what? And it's not bad to throw into the shooter lane just as a protective measure if you don't have a Cliffy there. So, absolutely. Finally, the last item we have to discuss, drain it or save it. and I've heard this go back a way, so I'm curious to see where you're coming from, and it's nudging somebody else's pinball machine. Drain it. You're draining it? You don't want to nudge a machine? You jam right. You don't go nudging my machines. Really? I don't. Okay. Because we have friends that nudge, and we have friends that don't nudge. And, you know, Steve, sweet, love you dearly, but you will, like, dance a machine across a floor. Yes. You know you have never seen nudging until you watch Steve Like I said love the man Awesome dude But he respects This is your segment He not dragging it around He's not beating the snot out of it. He just has a tendency to be able to get that machine to move. And I have a different appreciation for cabinets and splitting and stuff like that. So it's pinball. Not a liver or kidney as we've said before.
    33:39
    If you're grand champ in my machine, absolutely nudge away. If you're not, who gives a whatever? So you're draining it. I'm draining nudging. Okay. And I know that's not the popular vote. And I'll accept that. But go ahead. I agree with you, man.
    33:55
    I'm going to drain it too. And this is the thing. I don't mind beating on my machines a little bit. But even on mine, I'm pretty ultra careful. So if a tilt is set super, super tight, it really doesn't bother me that much. The older machines are harder to nudge and like a newer stern. if somebody comes over to my house and I know that they're an experienced pinball player I don't mind the nudging and the bumping and the slapping I just don't mind the one thing I don't like is if somebody has a ring on and they're slapping the side of my cabinet and you hear that oh my gosh I'm like are you got to be kidding you I don't want to ever ever hear that so in that case uh it's horrible I don't mind if somebody does it but for me personally I don't go to anybody else's house and nudge their machines i just don't do it i feel like i it's some sort of like backhanded abuse and i just can't get comfortable doing it so for myself nudging somebody else's pinball machines i'm draining it i just assume uh be chilled out and relaxed and uh man nothing would be more embarrassing than me uh tilting somebody else's machine yeah i don't even nudge my own games not just because i right i it's pinball i don't i'm not competitive with it so it's fine right right so that that was that was our so as we go down all three we do we do uh myself and bill we both uh we saved the high-end cabinet uh artwork in radcals and butter calves uh we saved the factory installed mylar and then we both drained nudging someone else's pinball machine so hey bill thanks for playing drain it or save it absolutely getting the news from around the industry in this week's industry buzz And joining us on Industry Buzz is renowned artist Brian Holderman. Now, Brian, we reached out to when we were getting ready to figure out a way to come up with a pinball t-shirt design. And there's a lot of artists that we appreciate. But I've always come back to Brian's work, and it's a pleasure to have him on the show. Brian, what's going on, man? Not too much. How are you guys doing tonight? We're doing good, brother. Yeah, we're staying in there. So we launched the Special When Lit pinball t-shirt today with our Tiki Girl by the Pinball Machine. And for those of you that don't know what we're talking about, if you check our Facebook page, that was launched this afternoon. Brian is the artist. And Brian, first of all, dude, you killed it. You hit it out of the park. And we're getting a ton of positive feedback around this whole design and this concept. But before we get into how you envision how to rip that thing, can you tell the listeners a little bit about your background and your kind of stylistic approach to artwork and then how it's been involved in pinball over the last 10 or so years? Sure. Man, it was almost 10 years ago when I started doing some poster work for PAPA.
    36:44
    They're the host of the World Pinball Championships here in Pittsburgh. That was a while ago. and I was asked to do some posters to promote that event and from there, one of the guys that was managing the thing at the time asked me to do a custom pinball machine along with another Pittsburgh artist and the two of us made custom machines, Vendetta and then the other game was Doozy by Mike Budai and from that point, Mike and I both sort of hung around with Papa doing artwork for t-shirts and posters like for the next few years and since then um you know things kind of expanded a little bit more like papa's no longer just the world pinball tournament like now they do the replay effects event here in pittsburgh and they're including arcades and uh that transformed into pinberg and i don't know everything just kind of spidered out from there and you know my adventures took me in all those different different places um you know following pinball so now I do a lot of different work for a lot of different pinball groups like in uh let's see Switzerland and Canada and now Chicago with you guys and Stern in Chicago too so well Stern was kind of the referral for me because when I remember years ago I reached out my buddy Stephen Martin who uh works in the art department with Greg Freres at Stern and I said hey man I mean I'm looking for something artistic but I'm looking for something that's pinball related and he's like you got to check out Brian Holderman. Uh, he's done some t-shirt designs for us and he's done some posters and pinball and stuff before. Check it out. And when I checked it out, uh, your artwork, like it immediately called to me. How would, how would you explain your design or your artistic approach? Like what is, what is that called? Oh, let's see. What was it called? I don't know. I get, I call it graphic. I call all the work that I do very, very graphic. Um, like it all starts with pencil and that goes to ink and then I scan it and color it digitally. But everything's real flat. There's not a whole lot of texture to it. I love cartoons and they, you know, kind of lend themselves to that that style. So that's what I noticed like that called out to me is like it kind of like your cartoon is kind of like a retro, but it's like really stylistic and it's in your face. It's not overdone with detail, but it's like it leaves a definite impression on the person that views it right away. Yeah, for sure. Like I think my entire career, I've been trying to, you know, simplify things as much as I can just to show you just enough that you get the idea without layering it up with too much texture, too much stuff that doesn't need to be there. Right. Well, it's definitely unique, you know, and just that how it looks and how it's presented. You know, I haven't seen anything really like it. I'm trying to figure out like a genre, Like I'm trying to categorize it, but I don't know that you can. And that's why I was asking Brian straight up, like, where do you see it? Well, I mean, there are artists that that, you know, I guess I kind of I do pull from the mid-century or like the mid-century era. Like if you look at some of the illustrators that were making some stuff back then, like there's real blocky, simple shaped characters that, you know, kind of influence how I approach color and outline. Right. So, yeah, the mid-century stuff is definitely a big influence. So I don't know if I would call my work that because it's not, but definitely heavily influenced by it. For sure. I know when I first went through your site at that time, I don't know if you had just wrapped it up or if it was something that was documented. And for those of you that want to check this out, we're going to tell you how you can get a hold of Brian and how you can kind of see his art designs. But the silver bullet pinball machine that was the wreath theme was like left a huge lasting impact on me. You want to talk a little bit about that? Oh, man, I'd love to. That game was holy smokes. We pretty much replaced every part on that 78 Mata Hari. And it was a commissioned piece. It was a private collector that commissioned me to do it. And he really wanted to spare no expense. I mean, we replaced and built just about everything we could on there. And, yeah, so I guess the genesis of the game was like, well, I want to make a werewolf game. I'm like, you're shooting this little silver ball around. Wouldn't it be cool if there was a werewolf game? Like, why hasn't there been a werewolf game yet? Right. So it's just, you know, everything just added up to making this thing called Silver Bullet. So, yeah, that's, I guess that's the. I love it, man. I think it's perfect, dude. I mean, it's so unique. I've not ever seen anything like that before. And I think. Yeah, the game itself is that the play field was hand painted. Like we stripped down the play field and then, you know, I hand painted the artwork on there. It's the play field work. And then it was clear coated and then rebuilt. It's like fully restored and redone, like the machine. And then everything was hand done, right? Like for the art. Yeah, yeah, yeah. The cabinet was a two-color stencil with spray paint. And the back glass itself was like a nine-color screen print that we made like a small edition of. I've been selling them here and there. at trade shows and stuff, you know, the past few years to kind of recoup some of the costs that it costs us to make that thing. Oh, so you sold back glasses? Like prints of the back glass? Yeah, I did. I think I had like two or three left, so. Yeah, well, I'll be talking to you a little bit later.
    42:11
    If it was three, it'll be two. If it's two, it'll be one. Right, right, exactly, exactly. Actually, I have an Easter egg surprise for you guys that I didn't even tell you about, Ken, about the special one lit t-shirt. Well, let's, all right. I love this because we love Easter eggs, and we also requested an Easter egg in which you illustrated within the design. But let's talk about our design if you've got a couple more minutes. Yeah, sure, man. The S, the reason I just brought it up is you brought up Silver Bullet. The S in the special one lit is the S from Silver Bullet. Oh, see? Now, that's really cool, man, because I'm such a big fan of that Silver Bullet pin. And I remember talking to Brian. I'm like, hey, man, do you mind? Can we talk about this down the road? Can we do something similar? And I'm sure it's costly and there's a lot of time that goes into it, but it'd be fun to work with you on a project that's pinball related. Oh, yeah, absolutely, man. So we'll have to talk about that. Now, when I contacted you originally, I was like, hey, Brian, we want to kind of get our T-shirts out there to help recoup some of our costs because we put some money into the podcast and we've got a pinball streaming channel that we're launching. And then we've got kind of monthly costs to kind of maintain and keep the podcast going. And it's not anything that's life or death, but it's just kind of nice to recoup some of those costs. So by going with the design, I wanted to make sure that, and I think this is the correspondence that we had, we didn't want to go in a direction where it just kind of looked like a billboard, like advertising a podcast. We wanted the shirt to look appropriate and fun without even realizing that there is a pinball podcast necessarily.
    43:42
    You'd have to look to see it. Right. And some people will be like, well, hey, man, that's not how you get your brand out there. And for us, it wasn't as important to get our brand out there as it was for people that supported the show to have something that we thought was like a kick-ass piece of artwork. Can you kind of go through what went through your head? Because I don't remember, man. I was like, hey, man, I got this idea of like this girl on a beach, and she's playing a pinball machine, and there's a sun in the background. And I thought you were going to think I was crazy, but you kind of came back with me, and it was like crazy. When you told me that idea, I had to laugh to myself because my New Year's card was actually my first stab at doing a hula girl. And she was on a beach with the sun behind her and a palm tree. And when I was reading the words that you were asking me to do, I was like, holy smokes, I need a tinfoil hat. Yeah, tinfoil hat. I just threw that thing. So I was really excited about trying to do a tiki girl playing a pinball machine. And so, yeah, I was thrilled about that. And as soon as my pencil hit the paper, I was like, oh, wait, yeah, pinball machine is going to be, you know, big, like, wooden cut head. It would be great with fire sticking out of it. The tiki head is something that we've gotten so many compliments on because it's just something that I've never seen. You won't ever see. Yeah, you don't typically see anything like that. And it was great because when you came back with the initial sketch, I was thinking, all right, I hope this guy doesn't think that I'm picky because I'm going to request changes. because I'm sure I didn't tell him exactly what he needs to know. And what you brought back to me was ten times better than I had ever envisioned. And, man, we couldn't be more thankful because we're so happy with it. And for those of you that right now jump on our Facebook page, because you can see it at Special Inlet Pinball Podcast, you can see the T-shirt and the design, and we've got links to Brian. Brian, how can people get a hold of you if they wanted to reach out to you for a personal request or if they wanted to check out your projects that are happening? Um, you can go to my website, bholderman.com and, uh, you can find an email link to me there, or you could find me on Instagram at Brian Holderman. Um, there's links to all my stuff. If you just even Google my name, you'll, you'll find my website. He's not, not hard to find Mr. Yeah, for sure. So dude, you killed it, man. Thank you so much. And I know for a fact, just again, from early feedback, uh, people are excited about it and We're happy that people are supporting our show and that we are involved with something that you created. It's awesome, man. Thank you, thank you, thank you. Now we've got to build a pinball machine that looks like that. That's the real problem. Yes. That would be great. We'll figure it out, Brian. Hey, man, thanks for coming on the show. And we'll keep in touch. We're going to bring you back on if you don't mind. Oh, that would be great. I look forward to it.
    46:30
    All right, man. So, Brian Holderman, excellent choice for this t-shirt. For those of you guys that are just wondering, and we're not going to make a commercial out of this, but I'll say this. If you've ever considered supporting the show or if you're a fan of unique pinball artwork, I'd encourage you to go to our Facebook page and just check out the t-shirt that's there. Full disclosure, it's $29, and that includes your shipping. so that's all inclusive and that's within the uh the continental united states if you're outside of the u.s and you want a shirt we're happy to get you one just just message us privately so we can figure out what the shipping quote is yeah and we're not gonna we don't make money on shipping i mean that's fine but and when i say making money we're simply recouping costs from our podcast gear we'd have to sell a lot of shirts a plethora of shirts to just make money just how yeah no and And if at one point we made money on these shirts, it'd go back into making the show better, whether it be equipment or that sort of thing. Or voice lessons. Voice lessons. Yeah. I'm a little hoarse tonight. I don't know. Hopefully I'm not coming down with something. And we've got sizes small, medium, large, extra large, double extra large, triple extra large, and quadruple extra large. And they're all the same price. They're $29.
    47:45
    Shipping's included. And you know what, man? This is something that you can wear. and it says special when lit, but it's so like – Well, you can wear this to a bar. It's a passive bar. Yeah, man. I mean, it's a cool – it's not – it doesn't say Stern Pinball. It's just a good-looking shirt. Not that that's a bad thing. No, no, no. Brian killed it. It's not like a very pronounced labeled – No. It's – and I like to put it this way. Like if you were to wear the shirt, people would be attracted to the artwork without even realizing that there's any type of branding from a podcast on there, And that's the honest to God truth. So check it out. You know what? Grab one for yourself. Grab one for a friend. It's kind of a cool gift, I think.
    48:29
    It's great. And you know what? And I'd like to do something when we go down to TPF. If we see anybody wearing the shirt down there at TPF, I'd like to be able to give somebody something like as a thank you. So we'll figure that out. So if you're going to go to TPF, consider grabbing a shirt and wearing it down there. It'd be cool to kind of walk around and see somebody supporting not only our podcast, but the pinball in general. Pinball, yeah, and Brian Holderman's artwork. So that's going to be something. I look forward to seeing it, man. I love it. I'm looking forward to the feedback from everybody, too. Yeah, for sure. For sure. You know, if me and they're tight or whatever, but you listen to the show, just let us know what you think of the T-shirt, if you think it's cool or it's not your choice. Go check out Brian's site, man. It's b, as in boy, bholderman.com. And you can see all of his designs there. check out that silver bullet pinball machine it's killer man that mati haro that mati hari that was rethemed it's just awesome so i'm gonna work with him on something at some point and uh i don't know what it is but i'm gonna follow this guy's lead and see where it where it goes so um if you have any questions though and you want to reach out to us you know where to get a hold of us it's no big deal and reach out to brian yep a lot of people have been wondering what's going on with the whirlwind it's been a few weeks since we've had an update and we actually we recorded an update uh three weeks ago and it got lost episode yeah it just went so long the episode that it was hard to kind of we couldn make a two hour an hour and 45 episode just because we had 30 minutes of banter about Whirlwind And that literally what it was three weeks ago Right. It was fun, though, so maybe we'll release that at some point as, like, the lost episodes. But what's going on with Whirlwind? Let's bring everybody up to date on what's going on with them. So the board set is in. The board mounting plate is in. The light door has been rewired and is put in. The new fan blade is on. The topper, the brand-new topper is ordered and on its way in. Brand-new topper. The cabinet's all wired up. I just have a couple of loose odds and ends. I need some number four screws for the flipper switches and capacitors. Number four, number five, whatever it takes.
    50:41
    And then, yeah, I mean, the cabinet's real close to done, and I've actually just started getting the playfield parts kind of ready so I can start populating that. Actually, I did a test fit last night. I saw that. I saw that today when I came by. You saw that today when we were picking stuff up. It's so cool to see the play field kind of resting in the machine in the cabinet and just knowing that it's close. It's getting close to getting some populated action on there. Well, that's the hard part is literally we'll do some pictures here soon, but everybody that sees the pictures is going to be like, wow, that thing's not far off. Realize it's a play field just sitting there with nothing underneath it. Pretty intense work going into a play field. In your opinion, in your experience, I've never kind of done a play field teardown completely and repopulated a new play field. How many hours are you anticipating for this to take? Everything's taking longer because of situations. And when I say situations, I mean like ordering parts for starters, getting parts, finding certain parts. Terry's been great with coils, paw bumpers, all of those parts. And that's Terry at Pinball Life. Terry at Pinball Life, yeah. PinballLife.com. Go see him, Mike Fox and Scott. Mike Fox. Scott Dinesi. Scottish. And then... Scottish?
    52:04
    Scottish? One of my buddies, his name is Scott. Scottish? All right. So, yeah, the play field is in. Working on getting all the powder-coated parts back assembled, like the flipper, mechs, pop mumpers, all those things before I actually start populating it. Yep. So that's moving along. And it was just a little bit more time-consuming because of the clear-coated cabinet, and I've had help from my daughter. She'll take the hex washer head screws and mix those in. Yeah, that's shaving some hours off your time. Three-eighths screws with half-inch screws. Oh, yeah. So, you know, that's a good time because, you know, you mix one of those up on your half-inch play field. Hey. you could have a real uh little blowout issue a little a little little little aggravation yeah so i got you um you know but you know what hey i'd rather her be down there and you know see the stuff than not so she has a good time you know 20 minutes to sort through fasteners is what it is but yeah so we're getting there good so when is it going to be flipping when are we going to see this thing fire up in two weeks in two weeks i know that's not going to happen no no there's no way in all honesty i was hoping for easter because we're gonna have family over yep i'm hoping that that's not too far out of reach but i mean i'm figuring there's probably eight hour 80 hours left okay um to do the play field with all the different stuff eight hours a week and five more weeks or 10 more weeks i could be wrong but you know we'll see um and i probably got about another four or five on the the cabinet but yeah so we'll see you know it's there how many hours you have in right now uh about 80 85 so you're at about the halfway point you're at you're at halftime yeah okay hopefully if there's no other setbacks there's always going to be setbacks but as long as you don't lose the drive and determination i know you're going to get a finish so yeah we'll have to do some uh pictures of all the powder coating and the uh uh the spinning disc assembly yeah so right yeah so that's where it's at it's exciting man nicely done um before we sign this off. Can I talk about something for a second really quick? Absolutely. And that's just, okay, when we started this podcast, right? Like we, we were obviously enthusiastic and we still are. And it's just fun to sit down and talk pinball every single week. I don't think I realized that there are a lot of pinball personalities that are very strong personalities. And I'm not saying that that's a good thing and I'm not saying that that's a bad thing, but it just seems like lately there's been, I don't know if animosities the right word or agendas, that sort of thing, but I'm asking everybody to consider this. We all have something in common and that's pinball and we all love playing pinball. And some of us like to sit down and watch a machine run in a track mode. And some of us like to sit down and grab a beer and play the heck out of our games. and some of us like to go to a pinball tournament and compete and some of us like to go to shows. Some of us don't own machines, but we just like to read about machines. And some of us might own machines or don't own machines, but guess what? You want to listen to pinball podcasts. You kind of get familiar with the hosts, with the people that are the ambassadors of pinball, and they become, like, familiar to you. Yeah. It's almost like you're listening to a friend every week, like podcasts. You know, you listen to whoever you listen to. They do feel like a friend. So everyone has their podcast of choice that they listen to. And once you listen to that particular podcast, you can almost relate because you know what they're thinking and what's going on in their mind. Yeah. So you get very comfortable with them. You know, I have those podcasts. I'm sure you do as well. Oh, sure. I mean, before we started ours and while we're doing ours, I absolutely have hosts that I just feel comfortable with. And some of them I know on a personal level and some of them I've never even met. Yep. But that's kind of where I'm going. I think that, again, as a collective here, I think we all need to kind of sit back and realize what the true goal is here. And that is to talk about something that we all love. For us, it's more about increasing the exposure of pinball and whether that's through the interview process and bringing people's stories and backgrounds to the forefront, whether that's between us sitting down and talk about a cabinet restoration. That's just our approach. I don't think that there should be a lot of animosity in between people that are working towards the same goal or are – and that might be unrealistic for me to kind of wish that. I just lately – Nothing wrong with wishing for world peace though. No, and that's the thing, man. I mean you can wish upon a star or whatever. You can sit around and wish or you can be proactive about it. And I'm going to be proactive about it right now by saying I think that we all need to work towards not maybe being our best friends, but at least respect one another for what we're trying to accomplish. And there's definitely a way to respectfully disagree with somebody without slandering them or making them feel like an idiot.
    57:22
    We can't have hidden agendas. We can't have people going out of their way to take down somebody's hard work. On the flip side of that, we can't have somebody that pretends to be nice and stabs you in the back. And that's life. I understand that. But, guys, it's pinball. It's something that should be fun. It's something that should be enjoyed. We all have it in common. So at the very least, I would recommend that you take a look at yourself in the mirror and ask yourself, are you in it for yourself or are you in it because of the politics? The politics? Are you in it because it makes you have fun? Because when pinball stops being fun and you go rogue and you've got your own ideas and you're just trying to self-satisfy, I think you've kind of lost sight of what this should be about. And again, this is my opinion. And you and I came to the agreement a long time ago that if you and I ever got to a point where we didn't enjoy pinball or we didn't enjoy doing this, that's it. We're going to pull the plug. Agreed. no you're absolutely right ma'am but I mean just to be full filtered like there were there were some decisions that I think were made and some things that were said uh over the last week or two that I didn't necessarily agree with that being said it doesn't make it right it doesn't make it wrong I just I felt disappointed and the reason I felt disappointed was because when I got into this maybe I was naive I didn't realize that there was a lot kind of going on underground so to speak and what I'm asking is that everybody consider again what we're all trying to do and that is to talk and express our our deep interest um and appreciation for pinball and bring pinball content to the masses that wouldn't normally have access to it yeah I mean I mean if we disappeared into the night pinball moves on if another podcast disappears in the night pinball moves on But if none of us get along, we just kind of hinder the ability for pinball to move on, in my opinion. And I just think before things get out of hand, I think people need to kind of, again, check yourself at the door. And it's good to be strong-willed. It's good to have a strong personality. I can appreciate that. But just think about fallout. Think about aftermath. And think about what we're all trying to do. That's all I'm trying to say. And for some of you, you might not understand what I'm talking about. And I'm being intentionally vague here. Because it's not for me to call anybody out individually. I've expressed concerns with those people that I disagreed with directly.
    60:03
    But this is a public – not a public cry, but a public request for let's just – let's get a beer. Let's sit down. Let's chill out, and let's go forward as collectively. We don't have to be best friends. Nope, and we can agree to disagree. We can agree to disagree, and that's what makes it great.
    60:20
    And I still have respect for all these guys. I just want to make sure that I'm speaking my mind as others have been able to speak their mind. And it is hard because people do get pretty animated in this stuff. But, you know, at the end of the day, is your family okay? It's not a liver or kidney. I mean, this is not life-altering stuff. I mean, when I say life-altering, I mean, like, is your family healthy? Do you have a roof over your head? All these other things that are real-world problems. And if we're listening to this, hopefully we're not in those situations where those are issues.
    60:54
    Everything else is true. When I listened to Pinball Podcast, I just assumed, oh, man, all these guys are pinball guys, and they all probably talk on Facebook and this, that, and the other. It's not like that for the most part. There are cliques, and there are, it seems like, alliances and that sort of thing. And it's like I feel like I don't want to get voted off the island, but I'm going to tell you something right now. I'm not getting stuck in a situation where I've got to be fending for myself either. So it's just not worth it to me to do that.
    61:23
    So that's why if we did our own thing, that's fine. And again, there's not anybody that's really reached out to us in a negative way. I just kind of see how people that have the common goals in this pinball podcasting or just being a pinball personality, where they have common goals, there's just – More of an alliance. They align. which is natural. You've got your group of buddies, but it's just like you don't want to take that alliance and start going on your way to take down somebody else. I mean, it's just – and I don't even know if that is the case. It's just that's kind of like – I would hate to see that. So I don't know. Unless you have anything to add, we can leave it at that. So this is Ken from Special and Lit just asking you to kind of chill out. This is Bill, and this is where I say, you know, can't we all just get along episode? Yeah, get along better. Get along better. Yeah, you know what, I think you make a very valid point there when you say, can we get along better? Because it's not that anyone really truly disagrees or people are going, you know, east side, west side stabbing. It's just, you know, we could all have a little bit more respect and tact, I guess. Well, and in closing here, I'll say this. I'm not naive enough to realize that if somebody really went out of their way to hurt you, whether it be, you know, physically or emotionally, I absolutely understand that you do not want to associate yourself with that person and you naturally have a defensive wall up. I totally, totally get it. So that's not in those extreme situations. I'm not asking you to kind of just drop your wall and forgive and forget and everything's fine. That's not where I'm going with this. I was told by somebody that I respected recently as last week, like I was I was categorized as an older white guy from the Midwest because of the beliefs that I had. And that was something that was really disappointing that it was said to me. And because, dude, I'm 43 years old, man, like am I really like an older white guy? And because I'm from the Midwest, does that categorize me as something that is negative?
    63:26
    And I think it was because of my forgiving idealism here. Well, we're from Chicago, home of the St. Valentine's Day massacre.
    63:37
    Chicago's not forgiving. No, no, it's not. And again, in those extreme circumstances, that's not where I'm going. But what I am talking about is let some of the smaller bygones be bygones. Get on the same page. And time can heal some wounds, not all wounds. If an apology is in order for somebody, I would encourage somebody to do that. And it's up to you to accept that apology or not. But I think realizing that an apology is being offered is at least something. And this is nothing specific. I'm just in general.
    64:08
    Let's get on the same page, guys, if we can. And if we can't, you know, we didn't start getting into pinball podcasting to change the dynamic of pinball media and pinball personalities. But if by saying something and really truly meaning it and speaking our minds changes, you know, somebody's mind on something else, then it was worth it. And if it's not, you know what? I still feel better that I got it off my chest and I said it. And then so be it. And I think you've needed to. Right. You've been kind of holding that in with pinball. Yeah, man. for the last for the especially last week it just a lot of stuff was weighing heavily on on on my mind so i i appreciate that we have this platform that we can kind of speak freely about it and uh and again uh we have no ill will or hard feelings towards anybody and uh you know i just hope that people will consider what i expressed and what you expressed and you know take it as it is so i think that's going to be it man that's going to be episode number 39 of the special one lit pinball podcast bill it felt awesome sitting down next to you in the studio and talking pinball uh for a change um without having to kind of prep for an interview and and and that that's not a bad thing but it was just fun to talk pinball man absolutely nice to have a free-flowing agenda kind of it's yeah it's good to kind of see you and uh i think i was chatty tonight because i have not had a lot of time to talk over the last few weeks no we haven't i mean we've been pretty idle i mean the most talking we've done about it was you know during the day but there's always been other things that have been monopolizing time. Yeah, I agree. Definitely good to get back in the studio. So listen, guys, consider if you want to support the show, take a look at the t-shirts, grab a shirt or two. They're fun shirts. You can drain it or save it. Let us know if you drain it or save our pinball shirts. But snag one, check out our Facebook page, Special When Lit Pinball Podcast, and you can see how you can grab one. The shirts will be shipped and delivered. Actually, shirts are going out next week. so that's pretty cool. If you want to email us directly, specialwhenlitpinballpodcast at gmail.com. That's all one word. It's specialwhenlitpinballpodcast at gmail.com. You can find us on all the popular podcasting sites, and if there's a place that we're not listed and we're not downloadable or we're not streamable, please let us know because it would shock the hell out of me, and I'll make sure that we're on there for you. For Bill Webb, I am Ken Cromwell. Everybody have a good morning, good afternoon, good evening, and don't forget to take some time out of your day and play some pinball. So long, everybody.