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It's a Pinball Christmas Miracle with Triple Drain Pinball Podcast

LoserKid Pinball Podcast·podcast_episode·1h 56m·analyzed·Dec 17, 2025
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Analysis

claude-haiku-4-5-20251001 · $0.042

TL;DR

Triple Drain guests discuss Harry Potter's complexity, JJP production strategy, market saturation, and strong 2025 sales despite perceived downturn.

Summary

The Loser Kid Pinball Podcast hosts Triple Drain Podcast members (Joel, Tom Graff, Travis) in a holiday-themed discussion covering Harry Potter's design philosophy, Jersey Jack Pinball's production strategy, Stern's sales success with Godzilla and Jaws 50th, and observations about pinball market saturation and distributor competition. The episode blends casual banter with substantive analysis of game design accessibility, collector vs. casual player preferences, and broader industry health signals despite claims of a down market.

Key Claims

  • George Gomez stated that Godzilla is very soon going to be the most sold pinball machine of all time, surpassing Addams Family's ~20,000+ units

    high confidence · Direct statement about George Gomez's appearance on Kerry Hardy's show discussing Godzilla sales trajectory

  • Harry Potter game is designed for mid-level and higher skill players, not entry-level/casual players

    high confidence · Multiple speakers consistently describe Harry Potter as requiring flipper skills and rule set knowledge; comparison made to Medieval Madness and Cactus Canyon as entry-level alternatives

  • Jersey Jack Pinball could realistically manufacture Harry Potter for 7-10 years by mixing production runs with other games

    medium confidence · Speaker speculation about JJP's future production strategy, drawing parallel to Guns N' Roses sustainability model

  • Stern is producing significantly more games in 2025, evidenced by Jaws 50th production levels

    medium confidence · Statement about Jaws 50th sales and production capacity suggests high volume manufacturing compared to prior years

  • Tom Graff purchased Harry Potter Wizard's Edition through Kingpin Games affiliation early in 2025

    high confidence · Tom Graff directly states he ordered early through Kingpin Games and has Wizard's Edition (not Collector's Edition)

  • Someone purchased a Venom pinball from Amazon at $56.99, received a $1,900 refund for box damage, effectively getting the machine for under $4,000

    medium confidence · Speaker references Facebook group post about Amazon's heavily discounted Venom pricing and customer refund experience

  • Winchester Mystery House sold out at Pinball Expo 2025

    high confidence · Multiple speakers reference Winchester Mystery House's sellout as a market success indicator

  • Pinball market may not be in a real downturn; apparent saturation is due to expanded distributor network diluting sales across more outlets

    medium confidence · Travis's theory about distribution network expansion fragmenting sales rather than indicating true market decline

Notable Quotes

  • “Theme immersion. I like how they took all the movies and made sure they did the best with what they could with that.”

    Tom Graff @ N/A — Tom Graff's explanation for why Harry Potter is his 2025 game of the year; highlights Jersey Jack's thematic execution

  • “Harry Potter is a very deep, immersive experience that has so many shot patterns, you have to know a little bit what's going on. If you did, you would have something like Medieval Madness.”

    Josh Roop @ N/A — Core analysis distinguishing Harry Potter's mid-level design philosophy from entry-level competitor design

  • “The lessons that Jersey Jack Pinball are going to learn from Guns N' Roses is you can't just ride one horse until it stops.”

    Josh Roop @ N/A — Commentary on JJP's need for game diversification to avoid over-reliance on single title, relevant to long-term sustainability

  • “George Gomez was just on Kerry Hardy's show, and George Gomez essentially alluded to the fact that Godzilla is very soon going to be the most sold pinball machine of all time.”

    Josh Roop @ N/A — Major sales milestone claim about Godzilla potentially surpassing Addams Family; indicates Stern's production/sales strength

  • “I truly believe it's more or less because there's just so many dealers out there now, so many distributors out there now, and so much being produced. It's easy to think that whatever's coming out has been diluted.”

    Travis @ N/A — Alternative explanation for apparent market saturation/downturn—distribution expansion rather than true demand collapse

  • “If you look at every other manufacturer that's out there, this is a great time to be a pinball fan. It really is, because I think nearly everybody's clicking on all the cylinders.”

    Travis @ N/A — Overall optimistic industry sentiment regarding quality and manufacturer execution across the board

  • “Yet we have a machine selling out sight unseen. Yet we have Harry Potter crushing things. Yet we have Godzilla about to set a record for the biggest selling game of all time.”

Entities

Tom GraffpersonJosh RooppersonScott LarsonpersonJoel EngelberthpersonTravispersonGeorge GomezpersonZach Sharpeperson

Signals

  • ~

    sentiment_shift: Strong positive sentiment toward 2025 game releases across manufacturers; perception that 'everyone is clicking on all cylinders'

    high · Travis states 'nearly everybody's clicking on all the cylinders' and 'this is a great time to be a pinball fan'; multiple examples of successful releases cited positively

  • ?

    competitive_signal: Top players and collectors (Tom Graff, hosts) prioritizing game design depth, thematic immersion, and longevity over accessibility in 2025 purchases

    high · Tom Graff's Harry Potter as GOTY despite complexity; Travis's preference for immersive experience over casual pickup-and-play; ranking of complex games (Harry Potter, Venom, Walking Dead Remastered) as top tier

  • ?

    design_philosophy: Jersey Jack Pinball's Harry Potter exemplifies mid-level+ design philosophy prioritizing thematic immersion and rule complexity over entry-level accessibility

    high · Multiple speakers contrast Harry Potter's complexity (requires flipper skills, rule set knowledge, shot pattern mastery) with entry-level games like Medieval Madness; Eric Meunier explicitly designed for 'mid-level player and higher'

  • $

    market_signal: Boutique manufacturers (Spooky, Barrels of Fun, Jersey Jack) performing exceptionally well with limited production runs and selling out quickly

    high · Beetlejuice selling out sight unseen; Winchester Mystery House sold out at Pinball Expo; Harry Potter crushed sales; all cited as evidence of boutique success

  • $

    market_signal: Pinball distributor network has expanded substantially, fragmenting sales across more outlets and creating perception of saturation/downturn

Transcript

groq_whisper · $0.350

0:00
Thanks for tuning in to the Lose a Kid in Ball podcast. I am Josh Bruce. With me, I have multiple co-captains today. Let's start with the main one, Scott Larson. And next, we did not rehearse this, so whoever wants to go next. Tom Graff.
0:20
But that was Joel Engelberth. Oh. Jack Engelberth. Glass Off World Champion. Okay, all right. We have the Triple Drain podcast. If you're watching us on YouTube, I actually am representing the Triple Drain shirt, which is one of the coolest designs. So we have Joel, Tom, and Travis from the Triple Drain Pinball podcast. If you have not listened to them, definitely check them out. You don't have a listen. Yeah, we do have a quick sponsor. Josh, go ahead and take that. Oh, yeah, I forget about this. I guess I don't forget about it. Okay, I can do it because I ordered two machines. Dude, don't say that. People get ticked when you start talking. No, I ordered them. I just ordered them just like I ordered them. I got to turn around so you guys don't have to blur my face during this ad read. My gosh. Don't flip it out. Logo over Travis. Over Travis. Okay, so I did order. So I have two friends. I have a partner who just got into pinball, and he just ordered an Avengers Infinity Quest Pro game. and he decided to go with the Pro. I found a used premium, but he wanted the Pro. He got all the accessories. And so that's awesome. Got him set up with that. And I also ordered a Jaws 50th with my buddy. So Zach and Nicole, many flipping out pinball. They can hook you up. Okay, Josh, go ahead. I agree that we should probably do the five, and the reason being is because Scott breathes into his microphone. Oh, my gosh. You guys need to shut up. He just focuses on his face while John Borg's talking about fixing a Star Wars.
2:02
It shoots like butter, he told us. Okay. How is that for you, Tom? Is it shooting like butter yet? No, I'm still waiting for my fix to come. They haven't sent it yet. Wait, David's fix is coming to your house? No, no. That's Star. Okay. That'd be awesome. I could fix my own game. I'm just going to fix every house that bought a Star Wars. So what Tom is alluding to is his favorite thing. I mean, Tom's loving his Star Wars, except for the Death Star. If I don't get it by Friday, I'm streaming it the way it is. That's all I'm saying. Are you going to do nothing and just hit Death Star shots? Oh, no. We're going to have a rejection counter.

Travis @ N/A — Cites multiple market success indicators (Beetlejuice, Harry Potter, Godzilla) as evidence of healthy market despite 'down market' narrative

Nicole Sharpeperson
John Borgperson
Eric Meunierperson
Jersey Jack Pinballcompany
Stern Pinballcompany
Spooky Pinballcompany
Harry Pottergame
Godzillagame
Jaws 50thgame
Beetlejuicegame
Winchester Mystery Housegame
Evil Deadgame
Avengers Infinity Questgame
Kingpin Gamescompany
Flippin' Out Pinballcompany
Addams Familygame
Venomgame
Guns N' Rosesgame

medium · Travis theorizes ~30 distributors now exist versus fewer historically; argues this dilutes allocation rather than indicating true demand collapse

  • $

    market_signal: Stern Pinball significantly increased production capacity in 2025, evidenced by Jaws 50th and Godzilla sales volumes

    medium · Josh references Jaws 50th as strong seller indicating Stern's high production levels; George Gomez statement about Godzilla's imminent all-time sales record suggests sustained manufacturing throughout 2025

  • ?

    community_signal: Tom Graff affiliated with/secured inventory through Kingpin Games distributor, enabling early Harry Potter access

    high · Tom Graff states 'I'm affiliated with Kingpin Games. I was able to secure that through them' regarding Harry Potter Wizard's Edition early acquisition

  • $

    market_signal: Amazon heavily discounted Venom pinball at $56.99, significantly below normal retail pricing ($7,000+), suggesting possible channel conflict or clearance strategy

    medium · Facebook group post referenced about Amazon Venom pricing at $56.99 with customer receiving $1,900 refund for box damage; suggests gross retail/wholesale pricing misalignment

  • ?

    product_concern: Star Wars Pinball experiencing mechanical reliability issues requiring new part design and customer outreach

    high · Tom Graff awaiting new Death Star bracket component from Stern; hosts acknowledge John Borg's involvement in fixing playfield mechanics; references to 'rejection counter' and need for fixes

  • ~

    sentiment_shift: Broader market narrative of pinball 'downturn' contradicted by concrete evidence of strong sales, sellouts, and record-setting production/consumption

    high · Multiple speakers cite Beetlejuice selling out sight unseen, Harry Potter crushing sales, Godzilla approaching all-time record, Winchester Mystery House sellout—all presented as evidence of healthy market despite 'down market' talk on forums

  • ?

    business_signal: Jersey Jack Pinball planning multi-year Harry Potter production runs mixed with other releases to avoid over-reliance on single title (lessons from Guns N' Roses)

    medium · Josh speculates JJP 'could legitimately be making for seven to ten years and release a new game run' with Harry Potter, comparing to Guns N' Roses sustainability model

  • ?

    technology_signal: Harry Potter Wizard's Edition available as alternative to Collector's Edition, indicating Jersey Jack offering tiered collector variants

    high · Tom Graff owns Wizard's Edition, speaker notes question about 'Collector's Edition or Wizard's Edition' indicating multiple tier options

    • 2:45
    They made a new part, everybody. They made a new part. Reach out to your distro. You'll get your new part. And, Tom, I can't wait. next time we record, you're going to tell me how great. Oh, she's like butter. That's all we're going to give them, Tom. We're hoping. Just promise me if you stream on Friday, you don't have to fix, get Joel over there with the microphone they needed for GTF. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I'll be there.
    3:06
    You're going to go from, what was it? It rejects you like girls in high school, too. That's what he said. These were Tom's words. Yeah. Okay, all right. But the new one, you're just, now it's your current state of Tom? Is that where?
    3:24
    Where everything just slides around. Get out of here. Get out. Back away. I'm a married man. This is great. This is a great episode. For the record. Okay, yes. Can I tell you guys what Tom and I talked about? This is Travis, by the way, since we were doing introductions. But anyways, Tom and I, this weekend, And, Tom, what were we talking about when we were just standing there between rounds? Joel is a complete jerk to us. Yeah, completely. Completely. What? So we had somebody come up to us and be like, hey, why are you guys so mean to Joel? And we were just like, every time. They don't hear the first ten minutes when we get together before Joel presses record. That's what we were talking about. So mean to us. Yeah. I know. So mean. Where's your Christmas spirit? You know? This is supposed to be a holiday of thankfulness and kindness and naughty and nice-less, and this is what you're doing, Travis? Don't meet your heroes. All right.
    4:36
    Playing Jacob Marley, we have Joel. He's saying his chains are as big as your chains. This is not kind, guys. You know? I was looking forward to tonight. You cannot gaslight us. He hates dogs and old people. I was looking forward to tonight. And here we are. What am I doing? Josh, he's doing it right now. Tom and I are having an honest conversation. You guys are at a pinball tournament. You guys are at a pinball tournament, and you decided that moment to talk about me? No. We didn't even bring you guys. We were just minding our own business. Okay. All right.
    5:14
    It's true. All they think of Well I appreciate you guys I enjoy doing things with you guys Oh my god you can No you cannot do that Welcome to podcast therapy It means something to me you know That's all I'm saying I hope your soft car gets a flat tire I swear We're all going to go around and Joel wants to say What he likes about everybody in this group chat Hey Tom were you thirsty During Chicago Pinball Expo Or did somebody bring you mountains That's true. Over and over again, you know? True. Travis, when you were traveling to that one tournament, did you and your wife stay here at the house? I don't know. Okay. I'm just saying. Okay. Yes, you are saying. I liked being kind to others. He did stay at Joel's house. Joel can be okay sometimes. He did let me have access to his home theater and some of his family. It was whatever. It's fine. Wait, I figured this out. This was the festivus episode. Oh, the airing of Grieve and Tears. I'm not sure how we're going to do the feats of strength because we're all in different locations, but we need to make this happen. I mean, I'll go first. I don't have any because I love all you guys.
    6:25
    All the way off with that. No. You don't get to be nice anymore. Sorry. My goodness. They're not even talking about pinball. No. Still with us. So, Pupil 2025. Josh, what do you want to talk about? I was going to say, if clipping this episode doesn't surpass our Harry Potter clip that we did last week, I don't know what will, because this is just pure gold. Pure gold.
    6:55
    It's what friendship is, Josh. I wish we could say it's an act and we plan on it, but we just kind of just thicker. We have. We've been accused before of writing. Who writes? That was early on in our podcast. People were like, who writes your script or whatever? We're writing our bits.
    7:15
    It's AI. I still remember, I think what cemented you guys as just one of the top podcasts, you're only like eight episodes in, but the adult themed video game you guys were talking about and like Travis was looking at it on his iPad. That was on the plane. No, no, no. That was Dennis Creasel that did that. It was Din Din. He told us about it. Oh, yeah. Then I was the one that looked it up. I looked it up. Yeah, that's true. I didn't realize what it was. Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Scarring. And the lady next to him was slightly more horrified but more intrigued than he might have been. Yeah. Total stranger. That's when we knew. Episode 8 of Triple Kill. And now we're at episode 70. Yep. That's just... It's only... It's hard to believe we lasted this long. Has the TSA come to visit you? Just curious. Well, yeah, I might have had a conversation with somebody about three hours ago trying to figure out whether or not I'm allowed to bring alcohol, like, in my luggage to pinball at the beach. Like, I was trying to figure that out. It's in February. Well, you could buy alcohol at the airport. No, no, no. No, no. Like, Tom, I'm talking, like, total DJ and stuff. Like, put it actually in my luggage and check it in and then take it. I would... I think you can. I think you're up to five liters. I think you can. You can? Okay. I'm not an alcoholic. No, I do know this because. I'm trying to figure out how to get. Please write in to loserkid at gmail.com. Let us know. You know, it always has fireball. Ask him. Okay, here's the bet. Okay, legit. Guy who doesn't drink. I actually have a story because I had a friend, Julie, who was trying to get me to bring her some scotch or something. Yeah, Julie. So I was going to Scotland and she wanted to get some special scotch that was only at the airport. So we bought it and then we actually had to do it duty free. But when we got to Chicago, I had to leave the airport and then pack it in my bag and then recheck my bag because they weren't going to let me just keep it going. So, yes, I do know for a fact that you can pack. I don't know. It was like two big jugs. I have no idea. It's like 750. Is that what they are? There you go. So that southern comfort You can pack to the beach I totally know what you're talking about But for the ones that don't Like Joel, explain like your five Like what does duty free mean I totally know what that means You don't pay tax It's like you are Well Because you're flying internationally So you're kind of in this way zone Between whatever country you're going from To whatever country you're going to And so you get like It's like a crazy small amount of tax. I totally knew what that meant. I'm just saying, I think Joel didn't know, so I just had to ask for Joel. I totally knew what that meant. You're so kind. I didn't know pinball was duty-free across the country. You just buy it in a no-man's land.
    10:25
    Stern and all manufacturers should set up a pinball shop in the airport. You can buy pinball duty-free. That's the key. because then you can just carry it in your bag and you have to carry it on no you have Amazon just send it to you instead now that's what you do now right did you guys see okay speaking of Amazon did you guys see what somebody posted on one of the Facebook groups right about getting a Venom Pro from Amazon already at the price below but then the box had some damage did you guys see this No, it had some damage. So they were like, oh, I'm going to let Amazon know about this damage box. $1,900.
    11:11
    Like refunded. Yes. Really? So they got it for five. And the game was just fine. Like it's a full post. Wow. So they got $1,900 given. How much did they spend on it? Like what? It was probably like at the $56.99 that Amazon put up. Like, Amazon was selling Skirms, like, way below what it should be. $700. Oh, yeah. Jeff Bezos was like, I got an idea, fellas. Let's just sell pinball. Tom, would you buy a Venom Pro for $3,700?
    11:45
    Yes. Okay. Tom, would you buy a game from Amazon and go out and take a hatchet to the box and claim there's damage? There's a $1,900. Yeah. Right? Yeah. Tom's honorable. man. Yeah, I can't do that. Tom, you have bought... I know. Not to derail this, you know, because I don't... Is it ever on the rails? No, this is welcome to the show. So, it's 11 o'clock. I know we don't have Tom all night because he's like professional and goes to bed at a reasonable time.
    12:19
    This year, Tom, because Josh and Scott kind of did their 2025 wrap-up last year. You, Tom, have actually bought two games this year. Is that right? No, you had three.
    12:30
    No, just two. You had Kong and you had Harry Potter. Have you bought any other game from 2025 this year?
    12:38
    X-Men. No, that's not this year. Is that this year? No, that was last year. Okay. Wick? No, that was last year.
    12:47
    That's it, though. Out of the top. What were the other games? Jackson's other ones were, well, you've bought Winchester, but you don't have yours yet. Right. Dune. Portal, Harry Potter. Technically Jaws 50th, but you already have Jaws.
    13:06
    So I'm just curious. Evil Dead. I bought Star Wars. There we go. Three. Okay. So between those top. What about Dungeons and Dragons? I bought that, but I don't have it anymore. Well, let's include that in your list then. So you've owned four games from 2025. Do you want to go ahead and rank those? No. after all that thanks for tuning in to the show guys it's been riveting bye Tom's going to bed alright what am I ranking the games I bought you're ranking Harry Potter Kong where were the other two D&D Star Wars D&D I thought you got a Harry Potter wait did you say that That was number one? What's the water tonight? Harry Potter is your game of the year in your collection. And that was my game of the year. See, Josh, you're wrong. Harry Potter, game of the year.
    14:06
    TikTok 50,000, baby. It doesn't lie. Joe Mama says you talk too passionately about the game. You talk more passionately about the game than I do about my kids. Yeah, it was awesome. So, Tom, you had not bought Avatar. but before that you did buy Godfather.
    14:27
    Yeah. So I'm just trying to think in the realm of JJP. Elton John too. Elton John, you got an Elton John to use. No, I bought it new. Oh, you have that now? Mm-hmm. Would you say Harry Potter is JJP's best game or no?
    14:42
    I mean, I like it probably the best. Elton John's pretty close. That's pretty good. Is there a, what stands out? I know on Triple Drain we talked a lot about Harry Potter, and initially it was just thoughts of the code, things we'd like to see. But now that the code's at 1.0. You know that's just a loser kid podcast. I know, but I'm just trying to get the most of Tom Graff while we have you. And you are the only one of the five of us that own Harry Potter.
    15:08
    True. So I'm just trying to pick that mind of yours to see why it's your game of the year. That's all I'm doing. Theme immersion. I like how they took all the movies and made sure they did the best with what they could with that. I like the spinning staircase.
    15:34
    It's all good, Joel. I like the mini playfield. Yeah, the mini playfield's great. The real question is, who did you pay to get a Harry Potter this year? because no one else was getting them until like April of next. I didn't pay anybody off.
    15:52
    Okay, but you ordered it early, right? Yeah, you ordered it early. No, I'm affiliated with Kingpin Games. Nice. I was able to secure that through them. And you have the collector's edition or the wizard's edition?
    16:10
    I have the wizard's edition. Cool. I will tell you, Tom. I mean, I've been mentally going through my headspace because I listen to Josh and Scott. I listen to your episode, your last one, and listen to your top fives. You got great, great reasonings for all your stuff. So I started playing that game in my head. And the reality is I don't know if I've given Harry Potter enough credit because to hear Scott, the way you loved it so much. You haven't. Well, that's what I'm saying. I think I might have, I mean, to be honest, I really had high hopes for it because Harry Potter is like my wife's dream theme. So I was expecting her to love it. I was expecting if she loves it, I'll probably have to buy it. And she just, she didn't. Like, she didn't love it the way I was thinking. She did not like the scoop. So I just kind of dismissed it. But when I replay it, and now I've even watched some streams recently, and it's one of those, honestly, I kind of want to get it back to stream some more because I think I just, maybe I let emotions get in the way. Because I think, honestly, that game's pretty dang good. That game is really good. It's really nice. So Tom has a lot of time on it. I've had a lot of time on it, but I realize Scott and Josh, you guys only had technically a handful of games. So in those new games, like something stood out, right? Yeah, my neighbor actually has one. So he has a players edition. But I haven't played it a lot just because we're quite busy and I have to go over to his house. But just the way that it's engineered, it's not a baby game. You have to actually know some things to really get into pinball, which is probably why it was a little challenging for your wife to immediately jump in. Because you have to know basic flipper skills and basic shot patterns for you to really take advantage of the game. So I think that's the challenge with Harry Potter is that it is not catering to the entry-level player. If you did, you would have something like Medieval Madness. My kids love Medieval Madness. They love Cactus Canyon. They love these games that are super easy to access. Well, Harry Potter is not that. Harry Potter is a very deep, immersive experience that has so many shot patterns, you have to know a little bit what's going on. If you're going to give it a penalty at all, it's that it's not going to be a simple fan layout that is easy to understand. Now, that being said, I love that this has last ability. There's a lot of fan layouts that just aren't going to stand the test of time. I mean, if Harry Potter defaulted to a basic fan layout with eight to nine shots and a couple of ramps, I don't think that I would like it nearly as much. That was essentially the exact feedback my wife had, which she said, when I'm playing the game, I feel like I'm in Harry Potter. Check. Great. But she goes, I have no idea what's going on, though. Like, no idea what's going on.
    18:59
    Her level of play, she really needs a simplistic understanding of, I mean, not to be a broker record, but that's why she loved Dune because Dune's light show is very good at only really portraying what you need to do at that moment. There's not all the lights all at once. And that's the, that was her biggest issue with Harry Potter was she's like, I know I'm, I'm in Harry Potter. It feels like Harry Potter, but she has no idea if she's hitting both shots. She just doesn't, she's really just batting the ball around. And that, that was why it was hard to her for her to connect to it. But for collectors like the five of us, yeah, that game has legs for sure. The longevity and how much they packed to that game, super impressive. Okay, but if you think about the stories, though, like Harry Potter, like the books, if you line them all the way up, that is an enormous volume of information that you have to get through. And so the real Harry Potter fans, they're not the casual readers. They're not the people who want to pick up a book and be done with it in five hours. Like they are going for that immersive experience. And so you're going to have to immerse yourself a little bit into flipper skills, into knowing the rule set to really get into the Harry Potter game, because that is what is required for you to experience the game. If they had, you know, this is actually one area where J.J.P. could consider something like a home pin, like a Costco home pin version of Harry Potter, because it would sell tons, like a dumbed-down version of that. If you're going to consider doing something like that, this theme would warrant it because it would be easy to access it. But with the way that Eric designed this game, it has definitely catered for at least the mid-level player and higher.
    20:47
    Yeah, but hinting at what Josh was saying, does JJP really need to worry about sales right now? Like, they've sold so many games. they just need to get them made, right? I don't know. I would be surprised if JJP's thinking, what's the next thing on the line? Because I'm getting the vibe that their line's going to be busy for a long time. Maybe I'm totally wrong there. Personally, I'm excited because they've made so many of these, and looking at their best-selling game, Guns N' Roses, I can get one of these for five grand here in a couple of years. I don't think that's going to happen, but the lessons that JJP are going to learn from Harry Potter, well, sorry, the lesson they've learned from Guns and Roses is you can't just ride one horse until it stops. And that's a little bit what they did with Guns and Roses. They kept pushing that until that was the only option, and then they had to move on. This is the first time that J.J.P., well, not really the first time, because Wizard of Oz was that way, where they were able to mix in some Wizard of Oz runs. Harry Potter is something that they could legitimately be making for seven to ten years and release a new game run you know run a few weeks of the new game swap back run harry potter and it gives them a catalog of of options that they're going to do so they aren't reliant on just selling one game all right well we know we know jersey jack isn't exactly like the powerhouse that stern is in manufacturing though so now that's that's that's the big issue. They might be making it for seven to ten years, but they're not getting as much product out as they could. The thing to compare that to, right, is Gomez was just on Kerry Hardy's show, and Gomez essentially alluded to the fact that Godzilla is very soon going to be the most sold pinball machine of all time. So I think that's Adam's family. It's 20-something thousand games. So to say that Godzilla has sold 20-something thousand games are going to be there very, very soon. That really does show, one, how great Godzilla is, and two, how many games Stern can put out because it's not like Stern has only been making Godzilla for all these years. They just keep coming back to it. And I know distributors can't keep them in stock. Godzilla premiums just keep selling.
    23:08
    If only somebody here on this podcast knew something about selling pinball machines and would want to contribute to the conversation. They don't want to hear you talk about Harry Potter. They want to know the sales of God's Will. Come on. I'm just listening. I'm having fun with these. It's like I'm listening to the podcast already. I just happen to accidentally be in it. It's like 4D.
    23:29
    How many beers are in on you now? Welcome to my world, Travis. Three and a half. It's fine. But no, I think Harry Potter is a great game. I think we've talked about this a lot. I love the layout of it. I'm still trying to understand the rules in general. but I'm accepting of what the rules are. So for me, whenever I play it, I honestly, I just shut my brain off completely, which I know some people out there, especially Joel, will be like, well, that's not too hard for you to do. I would never have said that. Yeah, I know. I hadn't even thought of it. I'm sure you haven't. Anyhow, so I shut my brain off, and I just don't worry about the lessons, but I focus on everything else, and there's still a lot of meat to that bone, right? And it is immersive. It does feel like you're actually in Harry Potter that way. It's just for me personally, I do wish still that I could enjoy the movies themselves a little bit more. And I'm not even worried about it being in chronological order. Right. Because there's so much content. It just kind of is what it is. But I do wish I would be able to experience certain just the way the lessons are, where I would know, OK, I'm in this area. Now I'm in this area. Instead of it just always feeling like I'm trying to race to a multiball and just stack things up and make everything happen. And I think it's kind of like one of those things that I'm not sure. I thought about this a lot. I wouldn't mind having one for my house. And I think what I would personally do if I had one here is I would actually try to set the multiballs to be as hard as possible in terms of qualifying and starting them, just so that way I could try to focus more on the lessons and not accidentally start anything else, since you're kind of forced to go around the play field anyways. So I don't know. They do have, like, a feature on the screen where there's, like, a QR code where you can pick three different things. Right, yeah. And so, I mean, we get to hard mode. Easy, average, and hard. So really, for Travis, you would just set it on the super hard level. I mean, it's kind of weird. So it's kind of weird. It's like if I have a game at home, I want to enjoy it. I want to get through it. I don't worry about score too much. Unless I'm in a tournament, then I'm trying to figure out the easiest path to points, right? But if I'm playing at home, I want to get to a wizard mode, and I don't really care about the points unless I need to get to a certain threshold. Like, say, Iron Maiden, you have to get to a certain threshold within your modes or, like, Flight of Icarus on there, right? You have to get, I think it's like 20 million points in order to light the soul shard. So there's some games out there to where you do have to focus a little bit and hit those thresholds. But ideally, I just want to go on a journey when I'm at the house. Like, I want to have a beer. I want to stay in front of the game. And I want to just, like, hear the music, hear the call-outs, because it's a controlled environment. I want to enjoy it. And I feel like Harry Potter could definitely hit or tick all those boxes off or check all those boxes. So, I mean, in the future, I wouldn't mind having it. So, Monica, if you listen to this, I mean, I'm just saying, you know, Christmas next year. Hi, Monica. Maybe just saying. But, I mean, overall, I could fully understand why people would put that as their number one. And I think, I mean, maybe if I had more time on it, it could be up there. I mean, it's up there pretty high for me. I mean, it's definitely top three at least. What's above it, Travis? What's that? What's above it?
    26:58
    I don't even know. See how Joel is? I don't even know. You're making me questions. I do, Tom. Yeah, I know. He's trying to put me on the spot. He's trying to. Joel, okay, I'll tell you. The two games above it right now, Venom and Walking Dead Remastered. Number two, number one. And if you like either one of those, Vimble Company's got them in stock. Ready to go.
    27:22
    Travis will personally truck it out to the truck for you. Yeah. We'll send it in a box. Yeah. We'll do it all. But no, I think Harry Potter is a good example of what happens when everything goes right for a company to get this game out, right? So we don't know what happened behind the scenes with it, but what I'm saying is in terms of a passion put into the game, in terms of just nice looking art, a great layout, a great theme, a company that obviously wants to put as much into their game as possible. They're willing to put a lot of money into it. So that right there, I mean, that's great for pinball fans. I don't think anybody out there could argue that it's not. And I mean, even besides that, if you look at every other manufacturer that's out there, this is a great time. to be a pinball fan. It really is, because I think nearly everybody's clicking on all the cylinders, I would think, right? I mean, Spooky, what did they come out with this year? Evil Dead. Evil Dead? And then what's their newest game? Beetlejuice. Oh.
    28:31
    We haven't found it yet. What do you mean? That's a 2026 thing. What do you mean Beetlejuice, but? Like, Joel, what do you mean Beetlejuice? I'm not, it's not, it's not out yet. Right, but is it sold out? Can you find one? Yeah, I get it. So from a sales standpoint.
    28:52
    Well, no. Well, not just that, but I'm saying, like, as pinball fans, the fact that everybody's going nuts and buying a game, like selling it out before it's even revealed. It's good. It's a very good thing. And this is in a down market right If you look at Pinside or Facebook people talk about how the market tanking Yet we have a machine selling out sight unseen Yet we have Harry Potter crushing things. Yet we have Godzilla about to set a record for the biggest selling game of all time. Winchester sold out. Winchester right here. The banner to my right. Exactly.
    29:31
    It's been an amazing year. I know Stern What I've learned is, like an amazing seller for CERN, like Jaws 50th has been crushed. Like that's a game that technically is not – that model is new this year, but it's just like I have no doubt – I don't know exactly what Gomez said, but it's the production is – like they are producing a lot of games this year. So with your down market, Travis, but yet the production and the sales are good. Yeah, so I got a theory on this, and you guys can correct me if I'm wrong. If you think it's different. But so obviously it's like some sales are up, some sales are down. But I truly believe it's more or less because there's just so many dealers out there now, so many distributors out there now, and so much being produced. It's easy to think that whatever's coming out has been diluted, I guess, is the right word to say. Because you can't just have infinite allocation across the board, right? Otherwise, the five of us yo-yos would all have our own pinball companies. and we'd all be multimillionaires because we'd sell like 5,000 a year. But that's just not reality. So, you know, I often wonder if pinball is actually really well off. It just happens to be the distribution network of pinball is just so vast that maybe it outgrew the amount of people that are willing to buy pinball during that time frame. That's kind of what I think happens because obviously if we don't have, say, Like just throwing out a random number. If we don't have, say, 30 dealers out there, right, or distributors, and all that product becomes compressed down to everybody else,
    31:16
    like are we really talking about a down year? You know, it's just so many different themes out there. Are you saying it's been a great year for manufacturers, but it may not necessarily be a great year for distributors? Is that what you're hinting at? I mean, because there's just so many around, right? Like, I don't know how it is downstream. Like, I know for us personally, like, we're happy where we're at. Like, I know there's probably several other distributors that are happy where they're at, but I know there's probably some that may not be just because if there are so many games being produced, you can't just have infinite allocation. It's got to spread around, but you're all fighting for the same piece of the pie, too.
    31:59
    Like, how does that work, you know? I don't know. I'm just trying to math it out in my head. What do you guys think? I have no idea. Because there's so many great games being produced. That's the thing, Mike. There's no shortage of quality product out there. There are a lot of great games. And I know at least the games that we've mentioned, you know, Evil Dead, Star Wars, D&D.
    32:24
    Unless you wanted an Evil Dead or a Winchester and didn't get it. Winchester, yeah. Yeah, Winchester. Like, there's a ton portal. Like, I almost feel like every company has released just a banger this year. And if you just happen to, like, we've talked, Winchester is an incredible game. And unfortunately, Tom's the only person on this podcast that was smart enough to buy one. So if the other four of us wanted, high five? Is that what you're doing, Trevor? No, we're getting one. The pinball company has one, yes. But if we all of a sudden, we wanted one, me, Scott, and Josh, we're out of luck. We pay, well, we pay a premium. You could buy it from me for $25,000. I'd be more than happy to give it to you. I'll have Carl sign it for you. I mean, I can't get an Evil Dead if I want one either. But that's what I'm saying. If you're in that situation where you're like, I can't get that, luckily there's some other really great options. It's not like you shrunk off for the whole year. You're not locked out is what you're saying. Oh, yeah. I have a theory, but I want Josh to give his take.
    33:22
    On what now? On the theory. Let's hear the theory. Welcome to the conversation. Oh, okay. Dude, you do our market trends. This is exactly what we're talking about. We're talking about, is it a down year for pinball? Travis's thought was, no, it's just because the distributor pool seems to be bigger. And so it may feel a little bit, it may feel a little depressed for each individual distributor. But really for us, there are a lot of great options out there. And if you don't hit the one banger game that you like, there's like four or five other banger games out there. But so, Josh, do you feel this is like a down year in pinball at all? I don't think it is, but I have my own theory. I need to give a disclaimer. The numbers I deal with are used numbers. I don't have access to dealer numbers and distributor numbers. This is a question that gets brought up a lot. Like, well, what's selling from the distributors? I haven't a clue. Those are private numbers to those companies. And if they want to share them, awesome. But I'm not going to go around. Yes, Travis? I mean, I'll tell you right now, during Chris's time, everything pretty much. Everything's up? Oh, well, everything sells. Like, people want games. But I think if you're doing used games, I think it is good to kind of see, does it go up? Does it go down? And I think it's going to be very hard nowadays to say any Stern pinball machine goes up because they have to produce so much volume. I think it's the same way. Like you mentioned Guns N' Roses earlier and Harry Potter. There's going to be so much volume with Harry Potter. I think, yes, I fully agree. Within the next few years, we will see those prices come down on used games because there's going to be a lot. Now, Evil Dead, Field Juice, Winchester, games like that. Walking Dead Remastered.
    35:10
    Besides that, Tom Graff. There's only 500 LEs. But those other three games, I think you're going to see the prices stay steady, if not shooting up. They will. I've heard of somebody that paid $7,500 over MSRP for their Beetlejuice. Like, that is realistic. That's what happened. So, I mean, you know. So, back to your question, though, like, the used market itself, the actual numbers of games that are selling used is less and less year over year. we've been in a downtrend for at least two years now but the price most of the prices went down but like travis has alluded to certain games like evil dead champion pub for some odd reason like obviously those the bangers from the 90s your medieval madness your attack for mars your circus whole terrors they're all either staying steady or they're going up so i think it comes back to that whole idea of like people are being more picky with what they want to buy and if it is limited number like Winchester, like Evil Dead, like a true limited, right?
    36:16
    It's going to either retain its value or go up because it's proven to be a really good game up front and so that will push you to keep going forward. Now, Walking Dead LE, I haven't a clue, especially where they haven't even sold all 500. Let me ask this question to the group here. If you were a person who just happened to click on the right – ad and all of a sudden rediscovered pinball. Is this, is 2025 a good year for somebody to get into pinball? I've got this answer. Okay, Josh, go ahead. Go, go. Okay, this is what's insane to me. So last week, I've alluded to this already. Last week, well, as Joel had said, we did our top five of 25, right? And I clipped the episode, like every blah, blah, blah. And Scott's number one was Harry Potter. and it went viral on TikTok. Like we hit 50,000 views in like two days or something like that. It was nuts, two, three days. But the comments is what was blowing my mind because people are like, no, Medieval Madness is the best. No, Champion Pub's the best. No, South Park is the best. All these the best games were from the 90s and there was multiple people saying, like there was one that said like, I don't know how I stumbled into pinball fandom, but I'm loving this. So it's crazy because I feel like Harry Potter, at least for us with what we did, it broke through the pinball enthusiast wall and somehow went into the general audience, like just out there. And yes, I think this has been fantastic. One of the biggest themes that pinballs ever had. It's a monster thing. It's a great design. It's a high quality product. and you have all those things together that are producing Harry Potter because it is really what people wanted. People want the high-level product of Harry Potter. They don't want like a home-pinned version of it. They don't want a Costco version. They want an in-depth version of it. And if you look at the video, it is so great how many different options there are. And if you even look at the tree, like that tree, Even Eric was talking about how complex that tree is to make just so it moves up and down with the car and the branches wave. It's a high-level achievement. So part of it is the visualization of such a great pinball machine that breaks through.
    38:53
    But I'm going to circle around a little bit because what Josh was saying is the used market is a little depressed. Okay, here's the question. why does a used market depress? And I'll give you the hint. In the 90s, which games were the expensive ones to buy? They were the used ones because the new games weren't that good.
    39:18
    And so what was happening is people were like, well, I've gone over this before in the 2000s. I can name like four games that I'd really like to own. And two of them I do. Like, you know, Pirates of the Caribbean is great. Simpsons Pinball Party is great Lord of the Rings is great and I think there was like one okay but that's a whole decade this year we have five games that I would legit buy and so if people are like well I can sell my old game because I want to buy the new one well a lot of people are doing that and so the prices are dropping because people are saying hey I want to sell this game because I want to do hot game Now, it will equilibrate over time, but that is a side effect of how effective the manufacturers have been this year at producing a product that people want to pay sticker price for. Well, yeah, and I know Zach with Flippin' Out, he's had great success this year with trade-ins. I mean, the two games I streamed the last two weeks, I got a Bond LE sitting right here and a Hobbit sitting right here. Those games were both traded in, and it's all people trading in trying to get the new thing. The reason I had asked the question of is this a good year to get into pinball, if I look at the current Pinside top five, number one, this was a change today. I don't know if you guys were aware of it, but the new number one, the new number one is Jaws. The new number one on Pinside right now is Jaws. Jaws, Godzilla, Harry Potter, Medieval, Madness, Evil, Dead. By a wide margin, too. Yes. It's so close, yeah. So the question is, if somebody's new to pinball and they see whatever, they see the hot thing people are talking about is Beetlejuice, you can't buy one. If they see the hot thing is Winchester, you can't buy one. If they see, oh, I want to get a Harry Potter, you call up a dealer, they're going to be like, you're going to be waiting a while. Medieval Madness Merlin, they're like, oh, those went for sale. I'll get that one. Sold out.
    41:14
    Godzilla's are, I mean, they're coming, but yet I know of multiple distributors that are sold out. So, Jaws, get in on the Jaws 50th now. Get in on it now because within the next few weeks, that list is closed. So I'm just curious if – and then the other side of that is the used market. The prices are still high. At least when I entered the hobby, like used games were cheap. That was a way to get into the hobby, buy them broken, fix them up, stuff like that. I don't know. I'm just curious. Like we're not – the five of us aren't in that position. We've been in this hobby for years. I'm just trying to think of the new people to all this that have rediscovered pinball. And do they feel like they're behind in a way as in like, oh, I missed out. I didn't know that I had to build a relationship with a distributor and get on their list. I didn't know we need to think ahead before these games are revealed. Or no, Travis is shaking his head. No. Well, so we're talking about two different things. And I think one thing that, because I know, like, I don't want to toot our own horn. but I know pinball manufacturers are going to listen to this. So the number one thing that I've discovered, and you guys, like Josh, like hit the nail on the head when you guys were talking about your TikTok, right, that went viral, I think it is criminally underestimated at what happens when you reactivate somebody's nostalgia for pinball. Because there is more people out there that know about pinball that have just forgotten it. They're like Peter Pan that has grown up. they've done other things and they've just forgotten it. But the moment something clues them in and they remember it, that's where they kind of get that bug. So it's not necessarily just about finding somebody that doesn't even know pinball exists, right? So there is that type of person. But just like you guys say, you show something like Harry Potter and all of a sudden people are talking about South Park. People are talking about Champion Pub. There's all these other games. and I see it all the time on our used games that we sell. I see what the biggest used sellers are, and there are games and titles that I won't reveal here publicly, but it's games that people would be shocked that sell very well at very high prices used, and it's because it gets people to remember what it was when they were in bars in the 90s, in the 80s. They remember that stuff, and so all of a sudden they just rediscover it 20, 30 years down the line, and it just teased something up in them. So I think that's kind of the important part. And that's great with content when you can reach people in different ways and they rediscover it. There's always new people like that. Just all of a sudden coming back to the hobby that were once a part of it without even knowing they were a part of it. Like they might've played on location, right? Put a couple of quarters in here and there. Maybe like every week they went to the bar when they were in college and then they just kind of forgot about it over the years. They got married, had some kids, got a job, got a beer belly. But then all of a sudden, 25 years later, they might rediscover it. So I think something like that's super important. But, no, the next thing is with the used prices, I personally think people need to not worry so much about used prices. I get it. There's a lot of people that want the prices to stay steady. They want to feel like whatever they're buying is an investment. But I don't know what else to tell you guys other than if you're buying something, if it's an investment, you better darn sure make wealth or make sure that there's not a bunch of supply out there of it. Otherwise, if you're buying something that's infinitely made, why are we having the shock Pikachu face that all of a sudden it goes down in value over time? I don't like this. I don't think it's investment, though. I think what it is is people want to buy a product. They're investing five.
    45:06
    I guess not investing. They're setting aside $3,000, $4,000, $5,000, $10,000, and they're hoping that if they decide to switch that out, that they can find something for the same value or not. And I think it's ridiculous to buy something used and think you could trade it for something brand new out of the box. But at least my thought process was when I first got into the hobby and was buying used, I was like, I just hope that my giant mnemonic, my shadow, whatever it may be, will retain enough value so I can transition that into another pinball machine. Because I think a lot of us sells our collection to bring collection in, right? I think if you are looking at this as an investment, then you might need to pick a different hobby. Okay, I think everything we buy, we want to be able to have some sort of retained value. But let me talk about how many things really are that way. I don't think the four-wheeler that we buy, we expect to be able to sell it for more than what we buy a four-wheeler for and a boat and a TV. You're going to – Joel likes golf carts. The golf cart, that's true. You know what? If you want the golf cart with the pink sparkly cover with the tassels, I mean that is a unique investment, and you may be able to sell it for more for the right buyer. But the bottom line is we know that most of the time, like the TV that I bought when I moved into this house, I paid like $5,000 for it 10 years ago. And I can get a better TV for $1,200.
    46:42
    But it's not like I'm going to go without the TV. So this is what I tell people when they buy games. And they're trying to sell for, you know, whatever, 80% of what they – it's like, okay, so let's just look at it realistically. if you buy a game for $6,000, let's just throw $6,000 out there, okay? So you own it for a year. And let's just say if you were playing that, you could just say $50 to $100 a month of wear and tear enjoyment on that. Okay, so after a year, if you really want to sell it for $4,800, you've still gotten use out of that because you can go and play those games. You can have fun with it. You can invite people over. I had the Women's League over here for their December social last week, and they had a blast playing all these games. And so if you're looking at it that way, it's like, okay, this isn't – how many things do you buy and you put in the safe and you never actually use? These are actually fun things.
    47:41
    And a truck that you buy for $70,000, you're not going to sell it for $70,000. Like this is a used item.
    47:48
    Well, I think, too, what's really not quantified in this, and you kind of touched base on it, Scott, is that what is your time worth? When you have a game at your house, what is your true time worth? Because you're not spending time going to a bar, going to an arcade. You're not spending gas going there. You're not subjected to possibly buying overpriced food somewhere or buying at a premium for drinks. You're not doing that constantly. Now, granted, a lot of us, we have pinball at home. We probably go on location. But the point being, if you have a game at your house and you really quantify how much you're actually saving over the course of the year by having that game there compared to if you just went out, if you decide to resell it. Like, honestly, a lot of people would probably actually break even or even come out a little bit ahead. Because I know for a fact, if I go to the local arcade, I'm probably, if I take my family and my kids there, I'm probably spending $40 instantly. Just on, like, coin drop, whatever. And now I haven't even put in drinks. Now I haven't included food. All of a sudden, it's $125, $150 a night because we all know how expensive entertainment is out there. For one night. For one night, yes. And I have to get dressed, and I have to shower, Tom Graff. And you have to put on pants. please okay legit this happened to me this week this it was like 9 30 and i'm trying to get my kids to bed and they know where my achilles heel is and my daughter comes and she's like hey i know i'm start i'm supposed to get ready but can i go down and play pinball and i'm like okay so she goes down and so then i go down and my son goes down and she's like okay let's so let's play a game so let's choose these three games and she's like okay medieval madness Cactus Canyon, Jurassic Park. So we spent an hour down here at night playing games. It's 31 on the Penn side. That's true. I could do Rush. It's hiding behind Winchester. But, okay, this was like – this was a total free evening entertainment. It was like, this is awesome. I don't have to drive anywhere. It's right here. And easily, if I loaded my – I would not have had that experience with my kids if I did not have games in my house because it was 930 at night. We were trying to get ready for that. Well, not just that, but as parents, we all know when your kids get tired of doing something, especially when you're out in public, guess what? Daddy's done playing pinball then. But if daddy's at the house, daddy's going to keep playing pinball. Like, I don't have to worry about it then. So it's like there's give and take to it. I just wish a lot of people would kind of look at it that way because it's more like what's the fun aspect? What's your time worth? What is those moments worth? You're entertaining the budget. You know, but you could be like Tom Graff. You could be like Tom Graff, and you buy the game, so you have an intimate relationship with the game. You know how to win at tournaments, and then you take all that money you win from the tournaments, and it pays for the pinball machine. Right, Tom? Hell yeah. Oh, yeah. I'm killing these tournaments.
    50:59
    Those earnings, man. I mean, I think all five of us obviously enjoy having pinball in our house. There's no doubt about that. And I don't, I mean, I get it. This is all stuff that's been discussed before. And obviously, if you look at games, you know, there's a big ratio there. To buy a video game, there's a reason GameStop, people, you know, people would spend $70 on a game. They'd play the heck out of it, and they're like, I'm bored of this game. I don't want any more. And they'd trade it in, and they'd be like, what? I'm only getting $15 for it? Like, obviously, we don't want that type of drop with a $10,000 item. I'll take a $40 drop. Yeah, to be 2,000. But the other issue with Pinball, right, is not only is it an investment, but it also takes up space. So you don't want a game sitting there that's taking up space. So that's awesome that the used market is there. It sucks to sell games sometimes. I know there's other distributors that also do trade-ins. That's awesome that that's a thing that you hope your game, I can play the heck out of it for a year if I get bored with it. I can trade it into and get a brand new game and enjoy that. And it's hard to compare that. The only other, like, I started getting more and more into board games, and I realized the board game resale market is actually pretty big. Really? Because some of these games are a few hundred bucks. And so they'll play it, you know, you may put a few hours into it, but if you realize your family or your game group doesn't love this game, you got $300 or $400 wrapped up into this one board game. So they'll sell them on Facebook for $200, you know, take the hit because they want to reinvest. So I think in the gaming space, there are other things, but I don't know any other games that are $10,000. I just don't know that level. I told you guys about this today. It kind of dawned on me. So the town that I live in, I know the city people, and they called me up because they have an old, decrepit hotel. And they're like, Josh, we found a stash of arcade games. We'd like you to at least come and tell us what they're worth and everything like that. And arcade's not necessarily my forte. Pinball more is. but I show up and there's seven games in here right and I call up a buddy that owns an arcade who deals in arcade machines and I said hey this is what I have I don't know if because it's an old decrepit building there's no electricity I don't know if these can plug in and play and I'm like are these worth anything and he's like as they sit for all of them together you're looking like 800 bucks to a thousand dollars and these are like Mortal Kombat Point Blank was one of them Like, there's some good titles in here. And it's like, oh, I'm like, okay, like, what are they if they are working and, like, they're pretty much like you can sell it to a house and they're in decent condition. And he said, all total, probably three grand because you're probably about $500 per game. Yep. $800 on the high end on some of these. And if you restore them. And that takes effort, by the way. And that takes effort. I sold the Turtles because I'm like, I don't want to take the effort to fix it. But what's funny to me is, like, here's seven arcade games sitting in this building, and they don't even equal a lethal weapon. You know what I'm saying? Like, pinball's kind of to the point where the entry point's almost three grand nowadays, even with used pinball, if you don't want to deal with the headache of EM and if you don't want to deal with the questionability of early solid state. You know what I'm saying?
    54:15
    Yeah. Yeah, it's an expensive hobby. There's no doubt about that. But I do know, I mean, we have plenty of people that, whether they watch our streams or watch our, you know, listen to these different podcasts, there's plenty of people that engage in this hobby that don't own a machine. And that's cool. That's awesome that there's locations and other tournaments, other ways to engage with pinball.
    54:35
    So it's, yeah, it's really nice. It is important. I mean, I do know some of these games, especially these modern ones with the crazy light shows they have and some of the crazy sound design that they have. It's really hard to appreciate that on location when you can get it in your home environment. It's an amazing, like there's some amazing moments now built into games. And I don't know, maybe I'm taking this in a whole new direction here, but like Hobbit, I remember my memory of Hobbit was this game is so immersive. It has an amazing light show. The modes are incredible. Like I had such amazing, I owned Hobbit for over a year. I had such good memories of this game. forgetting the fact that this game came out and I think it was 2014. Like this game's kind of old at this point. And now revisiting it, realizing like that really stood out back then. But now that type of light show, that type of immersive audio is almost becoming the norm. It's becoming the standard. And it just like all of a sudden the things that made that game in my mind stand out doesn't stand out nearly as much anymore. And so now it's a lot easier to be like, well, this game doesn't shoot amazing. Like, I'm not going to overlook. Like, I can get a more immersive or a better light show or a more immersive game in something that came out in 2025. And that's where we got to really realize, like, how great pinball is going. So, I don't know, maybe that's a decent prompt for the group. If anybody wants to say something that they think anything, it could be literally anything, something that went like really good in 2025 or maybe something that didn't necessarily go great in 2025 or like something that they may have been disappointed in. Like pinball or just life? I mean, if you want to make it, you go down whatever.
    56:22
    We're going here. I was going to do a pinball podcast. And if you want, I can start with a name. Go ahead. Oh, Joe. I wanted to say something negative about a game. All right. I remember at the end of 2024. The Grim Reaper. At the end of 2024, people were like, what are you most excited for? What are you most excited for for 2025? And my answer was Spike 3. So my negative is I'm not saying Spike 3 in general, but I will tell you I do not like the speaker expression lights for Spike 3. That, in my mind, I do think the speaker light. Thank you. The speakers themselves, sound quality, way better. The speaker lights themselves, it's a very white panel. So that's, in my opinion, that is. You're saying it's trash. I do not enjoy, I do not visually like the new speaker lights in the Spike 3 system. Here we go. We're going to get the emails from GoMiles. Hey, Tom. I do not visually like. Got it. That's the quote right there. I don't love them. Joel, what did I tell you a few months ago about it? I was like. It will be a, what did you say? Because you heard a lot about Spike 3 and you're like, some people will like it and some people will not. It will be a very divisive change. And we, I mean, there's a lot to Spike 3. I told you to temper your expectations.
    57:55
    The bigger monitor. Because everybody's acting like it's going to be this new spaceship. It's just going to propel pinball into the next millennium. The bigger monitor is awesome. The blacks are so much richer on the screen. It's a bigger screen. The monitor, awesome. The sound quality, awesome. I don like the visual speaker lights and I haven seen the new expression light rails in person I mean the bullets are going the right way now Yeah they fixed that That good You're welcome. You like the sound of your sound. You don't like the look of your sound. I do not like the expression speaker lights, the new design. I don't like it. I know Penwoofer has designed new panels for them already that doubled the amount of LEDs, so those do make it look better. It's just that they're just white rectangles. I mean, do you think there could be an adjustment coming maybe in future? Like maybe because obviously you don't think so. You think they're just locked in? I think the best thing that somebody could do, and I'm amazed nobody's done it yet, is create a black metal, you know, anodized or whatever, like, or powder-coated plate that basically covers most of it and just allows or reveals the speaker and a ring around it. So it looks more like a normal speaker light with a smaller one above it. All right. Well, you just came up with it. Nobody's done that yet. That'll be the next certain accessory in 2026. Start copywriting it. A black panel? Oh, that's my negative. Yeah, I'll be the Debbie Downer. Why not? So does somebody have another disappointing moment? So you're Debbie Downer as speaker light. Well, thanks for killing pinball, Joel. I was pumped. I was pumped for it. Yeah, I was pumped. First you kill GTF. You kill Halloween. and now you kill speaker lights. Now you're pointing fingers. I'm not saying that at all. At least he didn't kill Cuphead. That's true. He did not kill Cuphead. Do you want me to do a positive? Or do I try to let somebody else? Positive. Carl D'Angelo has entered pinball design. That is a positive. 2025 has brought Carl D'Angelo to the table as a pinball designer working for a manufacturer. As somebody, I think I'm like the only person on the planet that has had a Winchester in their home for like two weeks. That game is incredible. I think Carl had one in his home. Man, what glory. What a humble brag. I'm not trying to brag. I'm just saying to have that complete package, that complete package, everything about that game, and the fact that Carl has taken ownership not only of the design but also of the creative direction of the game, he's working with Jeff on sound he's working on um uh Brian not Brian who's the guy that did art Brad got it he worked with Brad on art and he's working on like he designed all the rules and so as somebody who's played the heck out of that game that is a fully thought through game it and it's and it's like maybe 40 of the way done like I just that is something that that should be a highlight for 2025 that Carl D'Angelo has been fully brought into pinball creativity and development. There would be my, there's a positive note on 2025. Okay, Josh, your turn. Uh, my Debbie Downer probably is Cuphead. Like I really wish I could have to play Cuphead and, and see it actually produced. I think like, I feel bad for Ryan McQuaid. This was his first and to kind of be short-changed.
    61:39
    Are we even allowed to talk? Well, I guess, yeah, it's cut that. Anyhow. I mean. Allegedly. It's an open speculation at this point. I have no idea. Who do I have to meet? Art isn't trying to sue me, so I don't care. No.
    61:54
    But anywho. No, I just feel bad. It's just this whole crumbling effect right there at the end, right? It was just.
    62:03
    Anyhow. It was close. Yeah. That was probably my Debbie Downer moment. But no, I agree with you, Joe. I really, I mean. Or do you have more Downers? No, I really think, like, seriously, like, Winchester was just such a game that blew me away. Like, I was not expecting Carl to be in it, in the game this early. I think that we knew that he was starting to start building something. But the fact that, like, Barrels of Fun scooped him up and, man. And he even had some help. I don't know if people know this, but he had a little bit of help in previous games already, too. So it's like it's already bleeding through the product, right? And it's proving that this is kind of where pinball is heading. And I'm excited. I'm excited to see. Like, if 2025 is the beginning of all this, I can't wait to see what 2026 and beyond brings. Because, man, it's so good. Same with Harry Potter. Like, Harry Potter, like, that game is fantastic. and the fact that it bounced back from the AI art fiasco with the derpy dragon.
    63:11
    It's not my game. You have the derpy dragon? Tom has the double D dragon. I don't care. He needs the triple D dragon. I didn't notice it at all until somebody pointed it out. Even still, it's like, okay.
    63:30
    It's honestly 2025. Scott and I talked about this last episode or two where it's like, like seriously, the quality of pinball of 2025 has been elevated so much more where the previous years it was like, why I really don't have to figure out what I want to buy. I know what I'm getting this year. It's like, how the heck do I buy these games? Cause there's just too many. And, and my wallet hurts now.
    63:54
    I think I, I think I might know Tom's negative just cause he's mentioned it. I think on every podcast. I want you to say it for me, Joel. The Death Star shot. The Death Star shot on Star Wars is his most negative moment of 2025. Killed the game for me. But they could redeem themselves. They could. They could redeem themselves with that new bracket. But I think you've mentioned this, though, Tom, in multiple things, and I think it's, and I'm not trying to put words in your mouth, But you feel like – you have mentioned before, though, that – Tom speaks so little, Joel. Tom speaks so little. He speaks – not in the background, though. In the chats, he's got it. He's talking. He's driving seven hours and doing talk-to-text all the time. I'm the best type of reader. He's letting it all out.
    64:46
    I think you have mentioned feeling like some of the later Stern games, the more recent ones, have come out half-baked or not fully complete. Or as a buyer, you get it. As a buyer? Yeah. Every game that comes out of Stern, that would probably be my biggest thing, is every game that's released is just bare-bones code.
    65:12
    Yeah. Go ahead. I just don't know. How do you fix it? That's what I don't. I don't think they can. I think Stern just they want to crank out the games which I understand if I'm manufacturing pinball machines I want to get the things out to my customers but in some sense it's like a it's a long process to get to the finish line.
    65:56
    Tom, my question to you then, do you feel like King Kong was at an extractable level when it came out code-wise, and that's where they should be at least meeting the standard of? Yeah. I mean, I would say that. I'd say compared to something like X-Men, where it was definitely rushed out, they admitted it was rushed out.
    66:16
    The game is clearly getting better than what it was when it was released. but you know I think that's some negative that would be my biggest negative the tough part is like honestly of all the games I've streamed because normally I stream them you know very very early on so of all the games I've streamed one of the worst streaming experiences I've actually had was James Bond when that game showed up that code was so I don't even say it was half-baked. There was so little there. And we just, it's like, there was nothing. There was like a handful of villain modes, a handful of henchman modes with nothing tying it all together. There was nothing there. But fast forward to now, we streamed it last week. That game is incredible. It is so good. So props to Stern. They do, they will finish. I do confidently feel that Stern will carry the game to the end, they will finish. But it's hard. It's hard because they're sucking up your money and your space. Right. No, and I agree with that. I mean, Stern, look, even with the Death Star thing, they're coming out with the part to fix it, right? Yeah. You know, they're not leaving everybody go, well, this is how it is, you know. And relatively, they're getting it out very quickly, which is great. and they're proving with John Wick and X-Men they're getting the code out but it's just taking a while and I understand there's been some changes too some people have left like Tim Sexton he was the main guy on Wick he's now at a different company but you know but that's my biggest thing let's try to get some of these games further along. Well let's bring it back up Tom what was the 2025 what is something in pinball that was great? I'm going to have to think about this no honestly all the games coming out like Evil Dead you know Evil Dead was great coming out of Spooky King Kong was great your guys top 5 that you released all those games that have come out this year have just been fantastic.
    69:08
    You know, Harry Potter, Winchester. I mean, there really hasn't been a lot of dogs released, right? Except for the one Joel mentioned. No, just kidding. No, I don't. They're all good. No, I think they're genuinely all, like, when I stop and think, I think of, like, you know, P3. I think Portal's the best game they've ever made. I think it's the most fun, easily the most fun game I've had on that. You look at Barrels of Fun, as much as I love Labyrinth, Dune is a better game, and Winchester is a better game. Spooky, I would say Evil Dead is probably my favorite spooky. Like, they are, all of these manufacturers are crushing it. I would say Harry Potter is probably my favorite Jersey Jack game. What about Predator?
    69:57
    Predator, I only played a game on. I don't really have enough. Let's not go too far. Predator was on par with Alien. We found the line.
    70:06
    Okay. You guys are actually getting exactly what my best of. And really, I'll talk about the best of in that my top five and honorable mention. I put Evil Dead as an honorable mention just because it's not a game that I will personally have in my house. Sure. Okay? Yeah. So think about that. I had Evil Dead. I had Kong. I had Portal. I had Winchester. I have Dune. and I have Harry Potter. Of the six best games of the year, how many were made by CERN?
    70:39
    One. And so if you're looking for a highlight of the entire year, it's that every single manufacturer stepped up and took a crack at the ball and hit a home run on so many levels, especially for their personal goals. Okay? Well, and I would even argue, like, Dungeons & Dragons kind of got shortchanged a little bit. I really do think, like, Eddie and Dwight did a fantastic job with that. And George Fisher, you guys know George from Don't Panic Flip. He'd point out, like, I think, like, they get a bad rap sometimes, but Dwight is trying something so different in pinball that no one else is trying with the RPG, the leveling system and stuff like that. And I agree with George. Like, I hadn't thought about that until Pinball Expo when he had brought that up. But seriously, Dungeons & Dragons is a very solid game, and I think that it should be given a second look here for 2025 as well. One of the reasons I actually sold Dungeons & Dragons was because I got to the end of it. You know, so it was like I had seen everything. Yeah. You know. But that's kind of getting to my downside of the year, is that I think Stern has this system where, just like you guys said, Stern will eventually produce a finished product of their games. It will get to a point that is satisfactory, okay? It may not be everything you wanted, but they will end up having a solid game. The problem is, historically, they have been the only game in town that has been producing at a high level. And so we've given them a pass for years to say, okay, they can release a game, and you're right, Bond was so bare bones, the first time I walked up to it, and it was like a month old, I GC'd it. Which I'm like, okay, obviously if I can GC a game, then this is very basic code, because I am not that high-level player. and it seems like with stern they have continued down that path where they they've released games that are you know they're they're very early beta and the other people have stepped up and elwynn has solidly released the game at at least a a high level beta low level alpha mode where it's like, okay, this is a complete enough game that even if this is what you got, it still feels like a complete game. So Elwynn does that. And the other manufacturers said, we're going to shoot for that. And so Stern's other approach of games, it feels like it pales by comparison, just because it shows that other people are willing to release the high level, at least complete enough code. And so if there's a downside, I would just say it's Stern being a little casual in taking their approach for granted to say, okay, we're still going to do what we always do. But it just, the light shines on it, makes it look like, okay, you guys, you're to a point where you can no longer get away with that and still be the top three games of the year. I'll give Stern a pass, though. I mean, I'll play the stern apologist role. They are putting, like, way more into their games than they have in the past. Whether it be animation, you know, just overall code and depth in the games is way deeper than it used to be. So, you know, you compare it to say like you compare something like Jaws to Munsters and there's just a miles difference in the depth of the code and just fun factor for me anyways. But, I mean, to me, I'll wait for something like that, you know, compared to go buying something else from the past that maybe isn't depth-wise there kind of thing.
    75:05
    It's, well, we had a game like that, though, as in Medieval Madness was sold again this year. It sold out, and it sold well. I'm so sick of medieval madness. I know. And I will tell you. Maybe because I played it this weekend for like an hour. I mean, I think we've had this conversation on Triple Drain, though. Could you do a modern-day game in a fan layout that is accessible and is fun? But I do know, like I had a ton of fun streaming Monsters the other day. But that depth there, Elwin said it on our last episode. Elwin's like, if we're selling games for $10,000, people need to feel like they get $10,000 worth of game. Yeah. You'd have to sell it at Costco is what you'd have to do if you do something like that. Well, that's where I do feel Medieval Madness fell short. When I looked at Medieval Madness Merlin, and I'm like, the amount of money that's in this game compared to all the other modern machines that are coming out, the code depth is so drastically different. And for some people, that's a big deal. For others, they don't care. Like, that's the depth of code they want. Okay, but I'm going to push back because it's like looking at the Beatles, okay? Go and look at those albums. If you look at how simple those albums are, they're actually quite, like, compared to the stuff that is being produced now, they're very straightforward, very simple. But the Beatles is still kind of that gateway comfort band stuff that people will continue to go to. And even for me, when I pull up – I'm not a big gamer anymore. But when I pull up a game, I pull up like the old NES Contra because I know it. I'm familiar with it. I have fun with it. So, yes, you can do a fan layout, and there's even creative ways of doing it. George Gomez threw a ton of diverters in Lord of the Rings, and it's a fan layout. And so as long as you have unique ball paths, you can continue to make it a unique experience. And so there are things that you can do with the standard fan layout. But if you re-release like the Beatles' White Album and just do it again, it's not going to have the same impact because Medieval Madness really did capture one of the best fan layouts ever. You could argue – now, okay, this is what we're going to get into though. And Travis, I'm going to come back to you because I am diverting it a little bit. So Cactus Canyon, Cactus Canyon is a fan layout. So I spent the weekend installing my Cactus Canyon complete kit. OK, was that fun, Scott? OK, now, OK, I will point out I have a degree in mechanical engineering and I am a doctor. OK, it took me six hours because I broke a wire and had to go buy it by my solder gun because I couldn't find it. But I found it four hours into the process while I was looking for something else. So now I have two solder guns so I can solder twice as fast. I will point that out. And that's how that works. Yeah. And then when I was mounting it, it says, OK, you put the screws in the front and then you put the setbacks behind it. Okay, one of the setbacks is literally right under the switch.
    78:25
    And so I'm screwing in the setback, and I strip off the solder on the switch. And so me being a brilliant guy thinking, oh, maybe I can unscrew the switch and move it, and I can solder it. And then some of the parts fell into the play field, and I spent like an hour looking for it. Okay? So I ended up just taking the whole thing out, finding all the parts, putting the switch together, soldering that switch back, and then putting it in. And I have old surgical – legit surgical instruments that are inside people or have been inside people. And I used those suckers to secure the setback, and so now I'm five hours into it. Was it a hemostat? Well, it was an angled. It was an angled hemostat. Yeah, I had an angle driver, and I also had like a malleable, if you know what those things are. I have pliers. Yeah. Okay. And I have these used in the web directly, and if you get a hold of these – No, Monica does all these things for us. There were no rectal instruments involved here, okay, guys? Come on. This is a family-friendly podcast. Okay. So I get to the point where it's like, okay, I'm sorry. Is the rectum scientifically just not family-friendly or something?
    79:38
    I have a wow stick. Depending on how you use it. Wow, yeah. Wow. Yeah. Remember this? Yeah, there's an old school call back there. Wow. Okay, go ahead, Scott. Okay, so then it's like, okay, so I got those mounted, and it's like, okay, now put on the cover to the saloon.
    79:59
    And I'm looking at it, and I'm just like, why did I put the setbacks in? The setbacks literally connect to nothing. and so it basically took me down a three-hour rabbit hole and i even sent a picture to josh sharp and i said hey why did i even and there's a picture of it because the setback is right underneath the switch and i said why did i put these setbacks in he's like it doesn't the saloon mount to it i'm like no the saloon mounts to two different screws i thought there's there's two holes in the back that the setbacks are used to screw no no the holes are actually behind it Maybe you should have paid Joel to come hang out with you. No, no.
    80:42
    He's a fully capable man. He did it just right. We all know of the five people in this group, Monica is the most handy. I need Monica over here to install my mod here. You guys are like melting my brain right now. What's the setback? Oh, my gosh. Okay.
    80:59
    Do you know what, like the hex screw thing? No, you don't actually explain it to them, Scott. Then you have to explain the explanation. I'm listening. I'm trying to learn. It takes three hours. There is a – I have drill bits, screw thingies right here. Okay, Travis. Okay, I'm with you. Just think of it as there's a post that you put into the play field that elevates it, and the screw screws into that.
    81:29
    Okay, like a sleeve. Yeah. Okay. Yeah. Okay. But it's called a setback if you look at the rules. Okay, a setback. Like a setback. Yeah. And so it actually has like a hex bolt thing on it, and you screw it in. And then there is a place for a screw to go into the setback, but you literally, in the instructions, you never install anything in that.
    81:53
    So why were you putting the setback in that? Because it was part of the rules. I'm ultimately a rule follower, my friend. What do you mean? Okay, wait, wait, wait. You mean the instructions. I'll just do those screw into something. No, they don't. They legit don't. So the instructions said... You're saying skip them entirely. Well, I'm just saying you don't have to rip the solder off the switch to do it. Tom, can you indulge? Grab your old search code. Okay, so you get it installed.
    82:23
    Was it worth it? Yeah. Does it? Okay. Yes, because it is a fan layout, but it takes it in a different pathway for the game. It actually gives you a little bit of a danger shot because you have the saloon doors and so you're hitting it. And it actually puts you a little bit of a, oh, well, I need to make sure that I can recover from the ball if I slam it into the saloon door. It also has a lot of fun modes that, you know, my kids were like, oh, this is a new mode. And I'm like, okay, now. Drunken multi-ball. Yeah. Now you can shoot the beer thing and there's something that it's actually worth it. So there's a lot of fun things that you can do to modernize the game. And, Joel, I actually agree with you. With the saloon installation, it does take it to a level that is more from the medieval madness. I can say if I buy a Cactus Canyon, I'm making sure that baby's installed before I get it. I'm looking at the install instruction right now, Scott. It does install. It does hold the back of the mech down. There are two clear posts that it is screwed into. is holding the back of the Mac down. I sent it to Josh Sharp, and I said, they go into this hole. I will take a screenshot, and I will show you. Okay. Well, Josh, we all know, is the definitive answer to anything. Oh, my gosh. If Josh could install it, like, I should be able to install it. He did not install it. Josh had something come to his house both times to install his Mac. So he lied. I think the problem is that you're saying that. Okay. Wait, wait, wait, wait, wait. See what I mean, Josh? Hater. Hater right there. What am I hating? Hey, if Josh is the definitive – Josh, every time when I worked with Josh on this, if I asked him anything mechanical, he's like, I'm not a programmer. I'm not mechanical. And he would just forward it to the next. And that's fine. I love people that know their abilities. Okay. And he's just like, I'm a thing. Children, I am sending this to you because this shows you exactly what I'm talking about. So, okay, zoom in on that thing that I have. All right. Hang on. I got a message from Bouncy Booty Yodi Cheeks. Let me look at that real quick. I think this is a great conversation. I just don't know if it's great podcast material. Did you just say beauty Yoda?
    84:30
    No, it's okay. It's fine. For the people listening, it's fine. They know what we're talking about. We're talking about a – It looks like a really crappy solder job. Oh, my gosh. You guys suck. Okay. But then I will send this because if you look at it, that is – Okay. Those holes right there, the second picture, that's where the screws go in. It is not to the post, the setback that is underneath the switch. So make sure for the podcast edit here, we're throwing up this picture. Yeah, that's why I put it in right now. So everybody can see this. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Okay, but legit, the anchor screws do not go into the setbacks. They don't. If you're watching this, if you've gotten an hour and a half into this episode and you see this picture, please tell us what you think of Scott Sauter's job. Oh, my gosh. You guys thought so much. I was five hours into it, and I was, yeah, no. Okay. I commend you with trying. That's commendable I would have just walked away and said Monica Go for it, I'm done I tried but Monica said no I didn't really text Monica I live in St. Louis, I'm not coming out there She did make fun of my solder job once And she does not let me solder anything That was your last solder job You know Travis Other men would be concerned If their wife was getting texts from other men I didn't text her, I'm kidding Short hair, don't care I have so many pictures of Monica painting, shoveling snow. No, the way those pictures happen is it's like, hey, Travis, what are you doing? He's like, oh, we're redoing my office. He would say that. We are redoing my office. We are. He'd say, oh, so Monica. I'm in the same room. We are redoing my office.
    86:12
    But we say, oh, so Monica's painting your office. This is Monica's rules. This is my own wife's rules.
    86:19
    No, no, no, no, no, no, no, no. She told me 10 years ago. All I have to do is be in the same room, and that's like us doing something together because she knows strategic incompetence. She doesn't let me touch. The best part about this. Sorry for that, but still, yeah. The best part about this, she puts you in timeout. She legit puts you in timeout. No, no, no. I've literally seen a picture of Monica with a wheelbarrow full of bricks. I'm not kidding. To my credit, I was standing when I took that picture, okay? Okay, you weren't sitting taking a picture of her. No, I sat back down after I took the picture, though. And that's how Travis gave birth to his five kids.
    87:04
    Sitting down. Hey, we're not, no, we can't pick on Travis. Okay, okay, Travis. Whatever, Joel, whatever. We build each other up. No, no, you don't get to do that. Hey, Travis, I think it's your time to tell us what you don't like about 2025. And what you do like. You're high and low. Yes.
    87:21
    What I don't like about it? I mean, I love it. Or the high and low in pinball. Whatever you want. I know. Oh, gosh. Okay low in pinball I start there Not enough whiskey Yeah that a good one
    87:40
    You know, it's tough. It's like I got to figure out. So I know what my true low is, but I can't say it publicly because it's like insider. You want to say I'll just bleep it out?
    87:50
    We should do that. I really do. I don't know. I kind of agree with some of the things you guys have said, like in terms of like, I don't know, like I wish code would be a little bit further along at times and make it easier to tell people, hey, this game is really good instead of saying to people, hey, this game will be really good in the future. Yeah, that's kind of like it's kind of a weird thing to say to somebody that's trying to convince them to part with seven to thirteen thousand dollars. But that's neither here nor there. You're just saying it's hard because like Walking Dead, you can't do anything with yet because it still says license for vending approval. Oh, yeah, yeah. That's a tough one. Okay.
    88:31
    Stern Pinball's listening. I'm going to say no comment. Let's see the next one. So Cuphead, yeah, Cuphead not coming out. I am bummed about that. I'm not a huge Cuphead fan, but I am bummed for Ryan. I don't really know him personally. I've talked to him a couple times at tournaments. But, you know, from a creative aspect, that's got to incredibly suck to put in that much work on something and not really get to see it go out publicly, not come to fruition that way. So I hope at some point it does come out or at the very least he gets a shot to do something somewhere to get that creative outlet to come out. So, I mean, that for me would probably be the biggest down. I would say the biggest up is just, I don't know, like pinball in general. Like I'll freely admit just like when I first got into pinball about, it's been nearly a decade now. I mean, when I started going down the rabbit hole, I would see, you know, the message boards and see, you know, the criticisms and all that. And yes, like some of it's warranted, a lot of it's not. And I've fallen into that trap also of like critiquing things. I mean, just as of this episode, I like making fun of stuff. But, you know, more than anything, I definitely have. Yeah, especially Joel. Yeah. But no, I actually love Joel. He's fine. But you can bleep that part out of the podcast. I'll take it. You call me what? No. Yeah, exactly. But, you know, I do have like a large amount of respect for people in the pinball industry, whether it's creatives, designers, artists, software people. I mean, animation, LCD, even though you guys know how I feel about the LCD. like just anybody in general that's working in the pinball industry. It's not the easiest industry to be in, but it's highly rewarding. And it's just, I don't know, like this feels like, to me, it feels like a golden era of pinball just because we have so many options out there. There's so many different locations. There's so much content out there. And you can choose to listen to what you want to listen to, whether it's, you know, very critical content, whether it's just idiots like Joel, Tom and I talking, whether it's actual informational stuff, like probably the loser kids give you guys, but you know, you guys can listen to whatever you want. So I just, I don't know. I think that this is a great time to be a pinball fan in general. So I'm excited to see just what happens moving on. Cause in my head, in my head cannon, at least, and I don't know how you guys feel about this. I think that designers and software people and the creatives behind these projects are getting better and better each time. They learn a little bit more, like just 1% each time. They learn what works, what doesn't work, and they take that to their next project. I think seeing Harry Potter, for instance, I think that's a prime example of that. I mean, I don't think anybody was looking at Godfather and thinking that Eric has just, you know, created his masterpiece. But I think once you see Harry Potter, that turned a lot of eyes, right? I mean, it's a great looking game. So I think just the fact that we have all kinds of awesome designs and awesome creatives coming from multiple manufacturers, I think that's excellent. I'm trying to think of other positives. Like, I'm just really happy for everybody. I'm happy for barrels of fun, like a time. Like, if you haven't met David Van Est before, that is a legit sweetheart of a human being. He is so passionate about his company, about his employees, about pinball in general, about pushing it out further and doing the cinematic version of pinball that he wants to do. So I'm extremely ecstatic to see that they had a win. I'm happy for Jerry. P3, right, came out portal. That's a fun game. And, I mean, Tom and I remember what happened when we were a little bit critical of P3 a couple of years ago, we angered one or two or a couple hundred of multi-morphic fans. But Portal, that was a fun game. I enjoyed that. I played that tons of times at TPF, played it again at Expo. And, I mean, even Spooky, right? Spooky's come a long ways since Halloween. I remember on our podcast, Tom and I, and Tom finally just yelled at Joel, we're not going to talk about Halloween anymore.
    92:52
    And now all of a sudden, they're selling out everything. So, I mean, in general, I think pinball is at a great spot. And so I'm just – I'm excited for 2026 to see what happens. And, I mean, I'm excited too, like the big rumor I told you guys about before we went live. I'm excited to see the possibility of Keith Elwin going to Home Pin also. He's got to be pretty sweet.
    93:14
    That's the big rumor, huh? He's going to do so much with Blues Brothers, let me tell you. That's a big rumor.
    93:20
    Go to Crescent. Oh, he did tell me something for – You, Josh and Scott, per Loser Kid. Yep. He wanted to know, and I quote, or maybe it wasn't a question, maybe it was a comment.
    93:33
    Tell them they suck at sending shoes. It's true. It's 100% true. We have been in three shoes. He sucks at receiving them. Josh, send them to Stern Pinball. Send them to George Gomez and have George hand deliver those things to him. Already tried. Already tried, man. Oh, there's a story behind that. Oh, my goodness. Just take these shoes. I'll wear them. I'll wear whatever. Look at you. I'm an idiot. I'll wear whatever. Carl Elwin is one of the best designers. I may have a backdoor option. Okay, Josh. We'll talk about it. This is a family friendly podcast. Oh, my gosh. This is not Elvira. Okay? I may have a backdoor option. Oh, my gosh. Okay. You guys. No, no. I do have an option to send it there. Okay? All right. That's your option. Go. Stop. Do we know what it is?
    94:30
    I have a contact. He messages me, and then I have to message Neil. No, it's not that. No, no. We'll get him his shoes. I guarantee we will be able to get him there. Okay? Yes. I will tell him right now. I'm going to text him right now. Yep. Okay. It says tell. Okay. Reply. Scott has a backdoor option.
    94:56
    I was just going to have them sent to me, and then next time we're up in Chicago, I was just going to drop them off. Yeah. That's really all I was going to do. Okay. That sounds more like a front door option, though. You're a sidekick option. Okay. All right.
    95:10
    Okay. That's what I'm happy with with pinball. Okay. So I think we got through that. That was a good segment there. We got to talk about CCR a little bit. Yeah. Talked about shoes. I think Joel talked at some point. I started it. I started with the, you know. I thought Joel was just taking over the podcast. I don't know. You know, I was sitting in the back of the bus with Travis, and he's over there picking up notes, and I just don't know what to do. And so I just stood up and, I don't know. Joel, are you that way on family vacations? Like when you go, do you like to take complete control? over it. That's what we're doing. I usually play a role unless we're at my wife's family. And then I'm like, you guys, it's your monkeys, your circus. Out of the five of us, does anybody here plan the vacations or the family time, like when you're out, like you kind of like, we have to be here at this time, we have to do this at this point. No, my wife's actually really good at planning for Europe trips. My wife is actually really good at that. and she gets actually quite nervous when we have other people with us like my siblings, but when it's just us, I'm like, fine, whatever you want to do, I'm totally fine, I'm on board, because that's not my skill set, but she's really good at that.
    96:33
    That's why cruises are a man's trip. You know what I'm saying? She likes to cruise too. I will point out, this is something thing I've always remembered. A wise man once told his wife nothing because he's a wise man.
    96:57
    I was a wise man learns from other people's mistakes. Oh, wow. These are all good. I just talk to Tom. Whatever he says, Tom will let you know. I don't talk. It works for me. Can we reveal the funny thing? Tom was quiet for like two weeks in our chat yeah let me tell you what okay legit what happened is i saw a message tom has left the chat and i was in and i was like what and travis like uh he'll be or joel or i can't remember he'll be back and then like i literally didn't hear anything for i don't know like two weeks or a month and i'm just like okay like we're not super chat i know sometimes i can't respond because I'm working. Tom's like has his hands in people's mouths just like me. Like I can't respond all the time. And I just thought he was like, okay, this topic's getting too hot. It was like a month. Yeah.
    97:59
    Tom texted me one day and he's just like, we're just talking. He's like, you know, why don't we ever chat anymore in our group chat? And I'm like, what are you talking about? We talk all the time. I'm like, Joel even added you. And he's like, What are you talking about? I don't even see it. I'm like, what? It was like an hour after he left the chat. He messaged me and said, I think I accidentally left the chat. Can you add me again? And I did. I don't know. But, hey, he came back. You made no contact with that. I thought he was like, I'm taking a break. I don't want to be able to reach out. Well, here's what happened. Tom sent me a screenshot of his actual chats, and sure as shiitake mushrooms, we were nowhere at the top of that. Like, we were just nowhere. And Tom's like, I don't know what's going on. It was like being trapped in the inside.
    98:45
    Upside down. Like stranger things. Will, we'll come get you. I just realized there is another top moment for me for 2025. Are you ready for this? Yeah. What is it? When someone told me that they needed to get an ass flames tattoo after going to our expo panel. You're on the show, Josh. you know I still can't believe you guys revealed it Tom did I ever tell you that they revealed Joel's name like at the I think Joel felt which was the second most viewed video for Expo behind George Gomez talking about like burny technology it was insane yeah that was a fun time I was just sitting there in the audience so I had never told my wife like what the names are in this chat at all. Yeah. And she just, as soon as Joel says that, I can feel her looking at me. And I'm like, oh, God, we effed up. I'm like, Joel, why did you say anything? I didn't. It was 100% me. Oh, okay. There we go. So I just hear her say, ass flames, huh? Yep.
    100:02
    Yeah, I guess so. I mean, I didn't come up with a name. Oh, my goodness. I'm just not going to fight it. Josh, I do feel like I might have – I did some prompting here. So is there anything – was there anything particular that you wanted us to cover or say before? Because we are – we're like an hour past Tom's bedtime at this point. Let's rapid – so you guys heard our top five of 25. Rapid fire, like one minute or less. Let's start with Tom. Well, I already did this at the beginning of the podcast. I know, but it became so jumbled and whatnot. Oh my god. Let's do just one minute.
    100:40
    He wants the TikTok clip for the I'm saying Winchester's off the table because it's not even really out.
    100:51
    So I'm not going to include that. So I'm going to go Harry Potter number one. Evil Dead number two. King Kong number three. some other games. Dune. Portal. Dune number four. Predator.
    101:13
    Star Wars. D&D. Anything else? Chicago. CCR Remake. Remakes don't count. Sorry. Unless it's like really I don't know. Maybe some more Metallica where it's like Alice in Wonderland? No. That was last year. There's four. Is it? I would say Portal would be the fifth for me. Portal definitely cracks. Evil Dead. Did you say that? That was number two, Joel. Okay.
    101:50
    I'm over here trying to think of my own. I can't believe you want Joel to be able to say something in under a minute. I want to see if this can happen. Go. One minute. You know, just so many hits, so many attacks, little jabs, Travis. You got 55 seconds left. My number one is Dune. Dune would be the game that I would own tomorrow. Number two would be King Kong. King Kong would be my, yep, number two. That's especially if Winchester is not even an option. Number three would be Evil Dead. Evil Dead for sure.
    102:26
    And then after that, honestly, I want to play Portal. would probably be the next game I'd want to play and then I would say Star Wars then D&D would be my top six did I forget a game? did you include Winchester? we're saying Winchester doesn't count right? I was my number one you literally played it at your house Tom said we're throwing Winchester out I was doing it personally because I've played it two times. I can't go to a location and play it. If we're not throwing it out, then I would do Dune number one, Winchester number two, Kong number three. Harry Potter? Harry Potter number four. Okay. Evil Dead number five. Portal six? Portal six. Portal six, yeah. I would do that because, yeah, honestly, of all those games, I would own Dune, I would own Winchester, and I would own King Kong.
    103:31
    That's fair. Okay, Travis, you're up, man. Man, this one's going to be tough. Okay, I might mess this up. This is off the cuff. I'll start by going backwards. So we'll say number five, I'd probably say Portal.
    103:50
    Number three will blow your mind. Yeah, right. Number four, I would probably say... This is a tough one.
    104:05
    I guess I'll say King Kong at number four. Wow. Number four is blowing my mind. Can you believe this? Yes, I can. That's why I rated it. Number three... What? Shoot.
    104:22
    I don't know. This one's tough. I'm messaging Keith. I just... Keith doesn't make good tournament games. Number three, I'd probably say Dune.
    104:33
    And number three, number two... Which ones do I have left? Harry Potter, Winchester. Yeah. Oh, yeah. That's the one I missed. Harry Potter, Winchester. That's the one I missed. Oops. Okay, yeah. I already messed up my thing. Oh, well. Okay, so I'll say Harry Potter number two. I wanted to fit in Winchester, but I miscounted, so my apologies. That would have been number three, number four for me, just because I want to see the code fleshed out more. And then number one is Jaws 50th. And if you would like a Jaws 50th. Jaws 50th is the premium anniversary edition. That's not a remake. It's a good option. It's a great option. Wasn't Jaws released in 2024? Not Jaws 50? The 50th anniversary came out in 2025. Hey, Jaws, about the game.
    105:28
    Oh, sorry. Write it down, Jaws. Oh, writing it down right now. It has Brass Wire 4. Well, that's not fair. That would be my top five. It's crazy. Well, yeah, how is that not fair? It says I can do it. You can do it. It's fine. Just add a six and seven now. Well, the problem is like I said, Yeah, I would have put Winchester in my top five too, but I miscounted. All right.
    105:57
    You guys changed my list. Rush is number one. Did you put an ad in it? There's still probably just one. He just wants to keep buying it. It is in the vault. I heard today. Oh, God. With the wonderful Jack Danger video that just released today? That is correct. Okay. I would do Dune then Winchester, then Jaws then King Kong I would put Jaws in my third See, I'd put Jaws ahead of King Kong That's what I just said, that's why Jaws is my third Oh, I thought you were going the other way, never mind Harry Potter would be my fifth, Evil Dead would be my sixth Okay How many Winchesters are out in the world right now, like five I don't think there's any official at all still like the prototype games Okay, so Winchester is an honorable mention then I put Winchester as three If I remember correctly, my top was Harry Potter Second was Doom, third was Winchester, fourth was Kong and fifth was Portal, or I could have had Portal above Kong I've changed my mind, number one, Pokemon hey how about Lord of the Rings it's allegedly coming out Tom it's either Pokemon or Transformers we never know you never know my number two is Transformers could be a misdirect guys you're doing your 2026 list already there's all this hype about Fallout right next year and they're all like oh Ellen's going to kill it on it's not going to Ellen if it's Fallout it's an RPG based game it's going to Eddie and Dwight. I don't know what to tell you.
    107:46
    Ta-da! Number three is Fallout. Okay. You're just listing games. What's the number of games? What's your over-under? What about Gremlins? Okay, that's number one. Gremlins is number one. If we're just doing themes? Yeah, we're just naming off themes that we want. Gremlins was number one.
    108:14
    J.J.P.'s Ghostbusters. Okay, you're killing my joke. Did they get Phoebe Kitt? Hang on, Scott has a joke. They're remaking all of Steve Ritchie's games, and so they already did Star Wars, and now I'm waiting for a Led Zeppelin that I like. Oh, God.
    108:29
    Hold on. Wow. I wouldn't put it past. It may happen. Oh, my. You never know. That'd be spicy, wouldn't it? I will say, too, Evil Dead's also a fun game. I'm not a huge fan of the license, but the immersion and what Spooky Dead is is a fun game.
    108:55
    And actually, the original Led Zeppelin, it's okay. I still like the music. I got it over here. So it's almost 1 a.m. my time. Where else do you have to go, Joel? It's only 1130 here. today? Yeah, this is the Loser Kid podcast. 10 to 39. They wrap up on one hour so consistently. This is a double episode.
    109:20
    I actually do. I do half and triple brain and half. Yeah, just split it into three episodes. I have to pick up my buddy at 6am. So, yeah, we definitely need to get to bed too.
    109:32
    Oh my gosh, you guys are all old pansies. I have people's lives in my hands, so maybe you should have some respect for those people. Okay, you three are old pansies except for Scott. So obviously we need to plug it up, but then what I love is we end our episode where Tom gets the last words, and you end your episode where Josh gets the last words. I think Joel should get the last words. I want to see you guys dookie out.
    109:58
    Wow. No, he'll just end with Joel saying, I don't know. He'll just drown out. Just kind of fade out. I don't know 15 minute monologue later I don't know this is supposed to be a safe place don't worry we're going to hear about it how about this you don't know what we go through Joel you got to pick on Joel way too much oh my god he's a sensitive little flower I will put out a bounty right now you ready for this? Okay, go ahead. Okay. If someone actually gets a Joel tattoo, I will give you a pair of Loser Kid sneakers. Oh, wow. A Joel tattoo? No. Okay, what is this tattoo going to look like? I'm curious now. It's entirely up to you. I'm going to Vegas in less than 48 hours. I mean, it's got to be the younger Joel. It's got to be the vampire Joel. The vampire Joel. What would you guys do if I came back with a vampire Joel tatted somewhere on my arm? I am getting your own sneakers, man. I mean, I would laugh. I will even sign them personally, man.
    111:11
    Okay. This is fun. Joel and Jared. Yeah, you got to get Jared on the other arm. He has my favorite angle birth, so I should do that. I'm not a geek.
    111:26
    Let's do it. Let's plug this baby up. All righty. I forget you're on Eastern Time, so I was like. I can imagine your guys' emails. This is the worst episode. I know. I can't believe you want those jackpots on. If Elwin's the voice of honesty, you know, apparently people listen to the first hour, and then we ramble, and they tune out. That's fine. I'm not going to lie. This whole year has been very, I don't want to say calculated, but I have done a lot of work in figuring out Loser Kid and building Loser Kid. it's nice to do an episode like this where it's just shooting the crap you've seen the amount of work we put in no that's not what I'm saying we usually have a schedule that we go through we have like five topics and we kind of systematically transition between them alright turn on the mic let's go at one point we had notes and they were bullet points and we've just given up on that we just go but okay no it's it's nice no like i really i really enjoy doing this because it's something different than what we typically do and it's seriously it's like someone reached out to me i can't remember who it was but like i'm so tired of like the the buddy buddy podcast i just want to hear about pinball that's what i love about loser kid you guys just talk it's we're not buddies interviews we're not friends we're not we're not well you just screwed that up i know Well, this is my Christmas present to myself. I like how you're like, we're not going to talk pinball. We're going to get the ultimate non-pinball pinball podcast on here. Will you guys just shut up?
    113:11
    No. We don't. We don't at all. I'm sorry. We're like this. We're going to run out of the way then. Travis, put your plugs. Let's hear it. I don't want to. I'm tired. Stick, please. Pinball Company and Triple Drain Pinball Podcast. There you go, Travis. Good luck in Vegas. Triple Drain Pinball Podcast Company with Joel and Tom. What about Marv Loco, though? Do you ever throw back to that? Nope. No, no, no. If you want to see baby Travis, you want to do corporate.
    113:41
    I haven't even put out a video on YouTube in over a month. I've been so busy. How you just did? Well, I might have my accent short. How to start Hot Multi-Ball? Okay, I take that back. I put out one short after 30. Yeah, I've been busy. Okay. I do refer your video. We do have people ask, what's the best resource for competition? Travis, you do fantastic jobs on those videos. Thank you. I really feel like they should be. Yeah. And Joel does the best tutorials with the glass off. Yep. And I'm glad I traveled seven hours one way for you guys not to mention my tournament stuff. I'm ready.
    114:23
    It's time to plug. We moved off Travis. We're moving off Travis. Tom, do you want to plug? No, no, no. Plug about a seven-hour trip. Fox City Pinball. If you love 12 hours of tournament play, turn in the Fox City Pinball. We will go all night long. And then talk. there you go you do fantastic tournament streams thank you and some of the memeable pinball memes out there yeah you've been killing it on the clips yeah and yeah I'm Joel I do the Flippin' Out Pinball Podcast or the Flippin' Out YouTube show every Wednesday night with my brother check us out 10 to midnight Eastern Standard Time you can check out tutorials on the YouTube channel as well we enjoy doing that in terms of Triple Drain, check out Silver Ball Swag. I know Loser Kid is on there as well. Fox City Pinball is on there as well. Check that out. Huge shout out to our Patreon members. We don't know why you support us, but you do and it's awesome. So thank you so much for the kind I don't know, your generosity there. And if anybody is still listening at this point, thank you for still listening because this was a long one. Josh and Scott, obviously thank you for having us on. Always. Always. And you want to get a hold of us we are loser kid pinball podcast at gmail.com like joel alluded to we also have a patreon and we we very much appreciate your support if you want to get a hold of us all the socials at loser kid pinball i've made it very very simple or you can even hit our link tree if you forget all that it's just link tr.ee slash loser kid pinball something like that it will take you to everything silver ball swag to buy more merch and and our patreon and and all of our socials.
    116:10
    Joel, would you like to give us the last words for tonight? I love you guys. I love you too.
    116:37
    you