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Zen's Mel Kirk Holiday 2020 Q&A

BlahCade Pinball Podcast·podcast_episode·46m 3s·analyzed·Oct 31, 2020
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TL;DR

Mel Kirk reveals Zen's Arcade1Up cabinet specs and explains multi-year table development roadmap priorities.

Summary

Mel Kirk from Zen Studios discusses Pinball FX development challenges, the Arcade1Up pinball cabinet's technical specifications and features, licensing logistics for digital pinball, and Zen's 10-year product roadmap. Key topics include the significant delay of Volume 6 tables (Funhouse, Space Station, Dr. Dude) due to underestimating alphanumeric emulation complexity, upcoming Mandalorian Star Wars table in spring 2021, three original tables in production, Williams physics adoption across the platform, and the Arcade1Up cabinet's hardware (720p Android-based, four solenoids for haptic feedback, upgradable components).

Key Claims

  • Funhouse/Space Station/Dr. Dude delays were 10% COVID-related and 90% underestimating alphanumeric emulation complexity

    high confidence · Mel Kirk directly stated project scope estimation failures were the primary cause, not pandemic disruptions

  • Original three-pack Zen tables will not release in 2020 but are still in production

    high confidence · Mel Kirk committed to releasing original tables going forward, with at least one three-pack annually

  • Zen has unlocked 25-30 additional classic games for potential digital recreation based on System 9/11 architecture learning

    high confidence · Mel Kirk stated the foundation from Volume 6 tables enables faster development for similar-architecture games

  • Mandalorian Star Wars table launching spring 2021 with undisclosed features

    high confidence · Mel Kirk confirmed production status and approximate timeframe but declined to discuss specific mechanics or Switch app integration

  • Arcade1Up cabinet runs on high-end Android chipset at 720p/60fps with four solenoids for haptic feedback

    high confidence · Mel Kirk provided technical specifications and demonstrated hardware in prototype

  • Arcade1Up acrylic top is user-replaceable with standard glass in approximately two minutes

    high confidence · Mel Kirk confirmed non-glued design allows easy swaps; cabinet designed with upgradability in mind

  • Zen licensed original tables are more profitable than many major IP titles due to lack of licensing fees

    high confidence · Mel Kirk stated original tables sell comparably to biggest IP franchises without licensing overhead

  • Arcade1Up's price premium ($500-600) vs. competitors is justified by official licensing overhead

    medium confidence · Mel Kirk argued legitimate licensing costs distinguish Arcade1Up from lesser-licensed competitors

Notable Quotes

  • “It's like trying to read hieroglyphics or it's like Neo and the Matrix, trying to make sense of things. We found just, you know, difficulties around every turn, whether it was music, scoreboard, just, you know, then once you get it running, integrating it into PFX, into our platform, I mean, this, it was just, it was so crazy. I mean, this is like one of the most hardcore coding efforts we've ever done for anything pinball.”

    Mel Kirk @ ~15:00 — Explains the severe underestimation of alphanumeric emulation complexity for classic tables

  • “We wanted to – it's better for us to not try to hit big entertainment launches anymore because especially film and television, they change things at the last moment with colors or a design of an item or an object or something that's in our game that we've already fully 3D modeled and is functional.”

    Mel Kirk @ ~27:00 — Reveals Zen's strategic shift away from IP launch windows due to late-stage changes from licensors

  • “We're kind of a victim of our own success. we've got a portfolio now of over 100 pinball games and so anytime you want to do something to the whole collection it's just this massive undertaking”

    Mel Kirk @ ~33:00 — Addresses scaling challenges of maintaining backward compatibility across extensive digital library

  • “I have a 10 year plan I just presented last week in Budapest, 2020 through 30 of what I see. Of course, after a year or two, it's murky because changing technology and new platforms and who knows what else. But we got a long term roadmap and original tables are very, very important to that roadmap.”

    Mel Kirk @ ~30:00 — Confirms decade-long strategic planning with original content as cornerstone priority

  • “It's not a rumble. It's a click. I mean, it is, like, it's... Actual impact. Yeah, yeah. It's not the rumble kind of feel like in a controller. It's an impact. So when a ball hits a bumper, like, you impact.”

    Mel Kirk (describing haptic feedback) @ ~48:00 — Clarifies solenoid-based haptic distinction from controller vibration rumble in Arcade1Up hardware

  • “what does that mean? I mean, the experience that you go online and if there's a store, like, what are you looking at? How are you connecting? That is just a massive undertaking and infrastructure and a live service and another platform. I have to go get approvals like, hey, licensors, then it's now going to have our own store.”

Entities

Mel KirkpersonChris FrebuspersonJared MorganpersonZen StudioscompanyArcade1UpcompanyArcade FactorycompanyFunhousegameSpace StationgameDr. Dudegame

Signals

  • ?

    business_signal: Zen's 100+ game portfolio creates scaling challenges for platform-wide updates; monetization model constrains backward compatibility improvements

    high · Mel Kirk: 'we're kind of a victim of our own success...anytime you want to do something to the whole collection it's just this massive undertaking'

  • ?

    business_signal: Zen committing to annual three-pack of original pinball tables as core portfolio strategy; originals are highly profitable

    high · Mel Kirk: 'I always want to have at least a new three pack of Zen originals every year' and noted original tables 'sell maybe as well as a lot of our biggest ips' without licensing costs

  • ?

    design_philosophy: Zen designing Arcade1Up cabinet with emphasis on user upgradability and backward compatibility; prioritized over feature-complete launch

    high · Mel Kirk: 'we want the people who embrace us the very first time through give you every option and opportunity...hopefully at a very low cost to just keep upgrading your machine'

  • ?

    licensing_signal: Zen shifting strategy away from coordinated entertainment IP launch windows due to late-stage licensor changes requiring costly rework

    high · Mel Kirk: 'it's better for us to not try to hit big entertainment launches anymore...they change things at the last moment'

  • $

    market_signal: Arcade1Up pinball cabinet priced at $500-600 USD as entry-level alternative to $2,000+ full virtual cabs; positions as proof-of-concept for home market

    high · Mel Kirk discussed price positioning relative to competitors and confirmed official licensing premium justifies higher cost vs. unlicensed alternatives

Transcript

groq_whisper · $0.138

0:00
blockade pinball podcast this is the blockade pinball podcast i'm your host chris freebus aka shut your trap joining me as always halfway across the world jared morgan hello everyone how you going i don't know how they're going but uh hey happy halloween everybody oh yeah that happened yesterday for us it was weird though because we had this really big storm roll in like lightning and everything has been doing it all day yesterday so there weren't many trick or treaters outside because they didn't want to get fried by lightning it does not feel like halloween at all um i wasn't even wearing the proper halloween shirt this is my panavision hollywood halloween shirt and my wife had to remind me what today was um so yeah but hey kids We're not going to have so many tricks up our sleeve tonight, but we do have a treat. That is Mel Kirk is joining us. Hey, Mel. Hey, guys. Good to be with you again. Hey. When was the last time we were together? I don't know.
1:12
I want to say it was in, what do you think, April, I think? Yeah. Things just shut down. Yeah, that's right. That was about it. you guys hadn't yet announced that you were giving tables away for free for the pandemic thing but I know that you had hinted to me and Jared that at least that was a possibility so I think that was the last adventure time flies it's amazing too because we've been obviously spinning our wheels for months now trying to figure out topics and then also in these last three weeks there's been just like a news dump of all sorts of stuff happening in the pinball world. So we're really happy to have you here to disseminate some of that for us, Mal. When it rains, it pours, and when it's dry, it's a drought.
2:05
Exactly right. Let's get right into things with you. And I know that we've got to step carefully because of where things go. So, but obviously cabinets have been announced and there was a whole thing about Zen's EULA contract. I'm just wondering if there's anything that you can, I don't know if you heard our, we went over it last week.

Wireless connectivity and online leaderboard infrastructure for Arcade1Up will not launch with first machines; estimated 12+ months for full service build-out

high confidence · Mel Kirk explained infrastructure, licensing approvals, anti-piracy systems, and platform development requirements exceed initial launch scope

  • Williams tables shipping on Arcade1Up will include improved flipper physics and uncensored content

    high confidence · Mel Kirk confirmed Volume 4+ physics upgrades applied retroactively to pre-existing tables for cabinet release

    • Mel Kirk @ ~62:00 — Explains why wireless/online features deferred despite technical simplicity of hardware component

  • “We're not starting from scratch. I mean, we're starting from a much higher just start, you know, a base, so to speak. So hopefully they will be faster next summer. I know they will.”

    Mel Kirk @ ~20:00 — Indicates confidence in accelerated timeline for subsequent classic table conversions

  • “Zen is officially licensed product and that carries an overhead in itself, which is more higher than another company per se who's got lesser known or less popular, at least lesser expensive licenses. Or they think they can get access to the licensed content without having to pay for it.”

    Mel Kirk @ ~70:00 — Addresses competitive pricing landscape and licensing cost transparency

    • The Mandalorian (Star Wars)
    game
    Pinball FXproduct
    Williams physicsproduct_feature
    Farsight Studioscompany
    System 9/System 11product_feature
    Scarlettperson
  • ?

    announcement: Mandalorian Star Wars table confirmed in production for spring 2021 release with undisclosed features and secrets

    high · Mel Kirk: 'Mandalorian table...it's in production. Here's a quick glimpse in 2021' with multiple features being withheld from discussion

  • ?

    product_strategy: Funhouse/Space Station/Dr. Dude Volume 6 delayed from planned Q4 2019 release to October 2020 due to severe underestimation of alphanumeric emulation complexity

    high · Mel Kirk stated 'we just underestimated every aspect of it' and described effort as 'one of the most hardcore coding efforts we've ever done for anything pinball'

  • ?

    product_strategy: Mel Kirk presented 10-year strategic plan (2020-2030) to Zen leadership with original tables as cornerstone; acknowledges 2+ year visibility limitation

    medium · Mel Kirk: 'I have a 10 year plan I just presented last week in Budapest...original tables are very, very important to that roadmap'

  • ?

    technology_signal: Zen deferring wireless/online leaderboard infrastructure for Arcade1Up despite technical feasibility; estimates 12+ months for full service launch

    high · Mel Kirk detailed infrastructure, licensing approvals, anti-piracy, and platform development requirements; 'probably next year before we got anything out'

  • ?

    technology_signal: Zen adopting Williams physics as standard for all new original tables and retroactively applying to Arcade1Up cabinet titles

    high · Mel Kirk: 'That's the cornerstone sort of physics that we are going with' and confirmed Volume 4+ improvements applied to cabinet games

    • 2:33
    We're not lawyers. I don't know how much you can kind of clarify Zen's stance within the EULA, how it affects users, whatever you can part wisdom wise. We'd appreciate it. Sure. There's too many things that, you know, in regards to EULA and in this specific case, one, the EULA is meant to protect end users. So first and foremost, you know, we want to give you guidelines as to where you can use the software in its final state when you purchase it because we have so much licensed content. Then ourselves, we are liable for misuse of IP in different misuses of it. we don't want that burden, should there ever be one, to fall on to end users. So Zen steps in and we are the entity that will take the heat. Number two, you know, you can't use it in a commercial environment. So, you know, that's it. Without written express permission from us, an agreement of some sort, somewhere that I've gone to our licensors and said, hey, we want to distribute this game on this platform. Here's the financials. Here's why it makes sense for you guys. I need permission. Let's amend our agreement. and then we get permission, and then we can do a coordinated launch. And if that doesn't happen, you don't have our permission to use our software in your commercial products. So there you go.
    3:55
    Just out of curiosity, who does still have licensing with Xen? I know, obviously, Arcade 1UP. VP Cabs did. Are they still an official licensor? Is there any other official licensors? Yeah, the Arcade Factory is an official licensor, and they're the ones who are building our larger form location-based products. for investors or barricades, those sort of places. There's a handful of other independent distributors across the U.S., across Europe who have a license and can, you know, we do have a program. You can contact us, and if you want to use it professionally, we sign an NDA and we tell you our terms, and then you get signed off and we can do business together. Okay. So there you go, folks. That's after last week's where we just kind of like stuck our foot into the muck and tried to make sense of it. there at least some a little bit of clarification all right let's move forward uh obviously we've uh had the release of volume six funhouse uh uh i don't know right there we go funhouse space station and dr dude thank you for that background my god there's total total blank there um those were those were something that we had thought and you had thought initially and obviously that was pre-covid thinking um that they were going to be out around may uh possibly june and obviously came all the way around to october uh how much of that was covid based that was causing a delay of the game how much was it uh just not realizing what emulating alphanumerics was going to involve?
    5:37
    I'd say it's 10% COVID, maybe less, and mostly underestimating what the heck we were getting ourselves into.
    5:45
    Actually, the original release date for these, I'm looking back at our original calendar, was Q4 last year.
    5:53
    We, on our schedule, had... We like to publish at the end of the year. We usually do it in December. right you know uh yeah i mean so we had just come off of universal monsters right and then adult and so and then yeah anyway we're trying to get them out last year like q4 like late in the year um and we finally got to it uh just recently so i i was talking to the guys about because you know um okay because you have you do a pnl you have an estimated resource you have the sheet right that says okay let's go forward let's do this and when things are so far off like this like light years apart, you're like, oh my God, what just happened?
    6:32
    The way they said to me is like, no, it's like trying to read hieroglyphics or it's like Neo and the Matrix, trying to make sense of things. We found just, you know, difficulties around every turn, whether it was music, scoreboard, just, you know, then once you get it running, integrating it into PFX, into our platform, I mean, this, it was just, it was so crazy. I mean, this is like one of the most hardcore coding efforts we've ever done for anything pinball so wow yeah that's that's kind of surprising because everybody just kind of assumes the name community actually is giving us a lot of props right now because they're just like whoa and so that's good feedback for us because those guys are pretty good too so because i mean a lot of people just think oh well those are older they should be simpler and then jared your your theory had to do with uh clock speeds rate yeah definitely clock speeds because like trying to dial back the the processes like the modern processes we have today are like so powerful and these ones were running on like 15 or 20 megahertz processes so trying to slow everything down enough that the game doesn't just run at like 100 miles an hour would have been probably one of the largest problems and i believe that was probably one of the biggest ones that farsight had at the time just trying to govern everything back again to a reasonable speed.
    7:50
    Yeah, the decoding effort, I mean, I don't know. We just, I'll just say we just underestimated every aspect of it. These are complicated things. And I, you don't have to jump too far ahead, but when you start touching like old mechanical, physical stuff, and then trying to make it, you know, modern software, we just underestimated it. And going forward, we now know we have a basis to work from, but, you know, each of these games is going to present other challenges, not to say like oh we figured it out now i mean like i said each one of these tables like whether it's the music um there's just uh i don't know all the different sounds is dot matrix uh scores all the stuff we have to put into our logic is is complicated stuff so i'm hoping it'll be faster but because we've unlocked like 25 to 30 games you know that we can potentially bring in now yeah oh they're running the same kind of board basically yeah all system 11 system 9 sort of architecture comes in now, which is awesome. So, yeah, I think the community actually is really looking forward to seeing more new stuff like Space Station coming in rather than stuff we might have seen on other platforms before.
    8:59
    That's what we're focused on, too. Excellent. So we're not too far off base then in saying that a lot of extra time was basically made to not just make these three machines work, but potentially other machines that come into the place that you'll have a good foundation with which to problem solve from there.
    9:19
    Yeah, absolutely. It's kind of like this is a trial by fire. And the team that works on these tables specifically has a lot of very valuable knowledge now. So we're not starting from scratch. I mean, we're starting from a much higher just start, you know, a base, so to speak. So hopefully they will be faster next summer. I know they will. Now, something that just popped up, I think, this past week was you guys have a Mandalorian table for Star Wars that you're working on.
    9:51
    And tentative date sometime in spring. curious was the original plan to try and make it coincide with the second season that's now just started streaming or was that never even part of it it's just more of a i know sometimes you guys like to air after or you put up tables after the product has actually been aired that's me yeah no i mean two things like mandalorian is obviously very popular yeah and I think there's going to be a long roadmap for Mandalorian just in general.
    10:32
    We wanted to – it's better for us to not try to hit big entertainment launches anymore because especially film and television, they change things at the last moment with colors or a design of an item or an object or something that's in our game that we've already fully 3D modeled and is functional. So we've kind of separated and distanced ourselves from hitting like on a launch, but if we can be a part of something that's trending, a lot of forward movement, then we'll jump on that. There's some other secrets and surprises to talk about with the Mandalorian table specifically. But for now, we just wanted to give you guys like, hey, it's in production. Here's a quick glimpse in 2021.
    11:10
    I know one question that people have been kind of asking regarding this, especially it's those that are on the Switch. They want to know, is the Mandalorian table planned to then integrate with the Star Wars app that's on the Switch? Or is it just going to be a standalone table or is it going to be integrated into FX3 How that going to work Yeah that actually something I can talk about yet We working on something like the Mandalorian I'm not even gonna pretend or go outside of the bounds of what we've agreed upon for communication. Okay.
    11:45
    It's a fantastic table. Everything that you would expect from, you know, that you'd expect out of the Mandalorian table is gonna be there. And it's really cool. So I wish I could say more of it. That was 15 minutes. That's about it. We won't make you, you know, dance on anything that has licenses pulled. So, yeah. Yeah. Now, obviously, though, the fact that you guys are working on The Mandalorian, that brings up the idea that, hey, Zen's back at work on original tables. Well over a year ago, you had mentioned that there were originally two original tables that were in the works, and then suddenly there was three original tables that were in the works, and those were supposed to be released quite a while ago too. Just kind of checking up, what's the status on those other originals? And are we seeing more originals? Those originals, yeah, it's a pack of three. They are still in production. They will release.
    12:42
    They're not going to come out in 2020, but they will launch. And I really love the themes that we have associated with those. so uh creating original tables is a priority for us both uh on brand you know licensed and unlicensed i look back over the history of everything we've launched um and surprisingly our original tables or maybe you guys might not be surprised our original tables uh well they're very profitable for us because we don't have to pay licensing on them yeah and they sell um maybe as well as a lot of our biggest ips so i know there's a demand for them and i and i always want to have at least a new three pack of Zen originals every year. Like going forward, I committed to that, maybe more.
    13:23
    But that's what we're, we've done an incredible revamp of all of our resources for pinball, the planning, the strategic. I have a 10 year plan I just presented last week in Budapest, 2020 through 30 of what I see. Of course, after a year or two, it's murky because changing technology and new platforms and who knows what else. But we got a long term roadmap and original tables are very, very important to that roadmap. Now I know that also people are kind of wondering With these new originals And I think Deep had mentioned this to us at one point But they're being designed With the Williams physics in mind Yeah You know it seems like the pro physics The Williams physics whatever you want to call them Are the preferred Play we've got a lot of data now Especially from like our core group of players Our guys who care about the game They don't care so much about the theme You know they want physics So, yeah, that's the cornerstone sort of physics that we are going with. So I'm going to turn this on so the light is great.
    14:20
    And, yeah, you know, and I'm hoping all of our older tables soon will have all those physics available as well.
    14:28
    I know that's a lot. We get asked that a lot. It's like, guys, we don't know anything other than what you've heard in the podcast.
    14:37
    We're sort of, I mean, I hate to say it, but, like, we're kind of a victim of our own success. we've got a portfolio now of over 100 pinball games and so anytime you want to do something to the whole collection it's just this massive undertaking and then it's like well can we monetize this again because we've still got to sell new stuff the money's still going to come from somewhere right you can't just pull it from there we've always tried to give away as much as we can and then when there's something worth value for someone to purchase make it a good value for them but working on new features and constantly evolving the whole entire collection is a lot of work.
    15:15
    And then, of course, the item that's been being talked about the most these past couple of weeks, it has to do with the pinball cabs, and specifically with the Arcade 1-Up pinball cab, we've been finally getting a dump of information on that, and you've got one in your house, or at least a prototype in your house. Yep.
    15:35
    I do. I was sent a machine back in July and showed up in a box from directing the factory. No instructions, no anything about how to put it together.
    15:47
    I was a bit of a guinea pig because, yeah, yeah, there's a picture. I was a bit of a guinea pig because, you know, RK1Up, they know their stuff. They know how to put it together quickly and, you know, do that. But, like, hey, can someone just, like, on arrival, what's the experience like putting this together? Do the pieces all fit? is becoming functional. So I got kind of like, you know, day one version and I've been tinkering with it for a lot. I've been making a lot of suggestions based on the machine. But I love it. And, you know, we could, I don't know what questions you have, but I could, a lot. At this point, I can just give you whatever you want.
    16:26
    I'll throw, I'm sure Jared has plenty of questions on this. I'm going to throw this one out first because I know it's kind of one of the differences between this cabinet and the other manufacturer's cabinet. This has the acrylic top. Curious, how easily or difficult would it be for somebody to swap out the acrylic for their own piece of glass if that was something that they wanted to do? Take you two minutes. Okay. So it's just a slide-out piece, basically. Yep. Okay. There you go, folks. You know, because, look, we built these. So knowing it, you know, these are going out in a certain format. They're not wirelessly connected, and we sacrificed some visual fidelity for performance. So we want them to be upgradable if you'd like to. We're also keeping in mind our price point, so we could be at retail. So, I mean, we didn't just like, hey, what did you do? I mean, we thought about this, like a lot of this. So you can unscrew, you pull out the little metal pieces, you can take the glass off and put it in your own glass if you want. It takes you two minutes. Because that right there, I believe, is the tray that holds the acrylic, if I'm not mistaken, right? That acrylic is just sitting on top of there. It's not glued to it. It's not like silicone to it. So you can just take that off. Okay.
    17:40
    Easy peasy. Jared, your turn. Okay. So I think when I was looking through all the news sources and John Dee was talking about the product, we were going between, there was a word of transducers and solenoids. And initially I got quite excited by the concept of transducers to sort of convey the feeling of the ball rolling and stuff like that. But then I noticed in the final build, it's confirmed that we got solenoids doing the haptic feedback in the cabinet. So it's just solenoids, isn't it now? It's solenoids, correct. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. That's fair enough. So the whole notion of pole roll. Just real quick, is that what the little black box there on the right-hand side, just beyond the plunger, is that the solenoid itself?
    18:34
    Yeah, so we have four solenoids in there, and that looks – There's two that you can't see further back in the box, like down in the base, and then you have the two on the sides for the flippers. Okay. Because I know that that was initially our kid went up and said that there had been only three, and then your video said four, so people are like, ooh, four, that's better.
    18:57
    Look, I mean, we held them to the fire. So we said, don't feel right, and they said, okay. But that's the beauty of it is, like, we actually have a capable hardware partner, and we've got a capable software company. So, you know, we can actually make something that feels good. Right. So on the subject of haptics, you've stand in front of this thing and played it now. What does it feel like to actually stand in front of this thing and flip it? Like, what is the feedback like? Yeah, it's strong. I mean, it's not, and that's the thing. Like, it feels like, you know, you can feel it. I don't know how to say it into words. And that was in the video. I did that segment so many times. I was like, I don't know how to say it, but, like, you can feel it.
    19:40
    How does it feel? Could you describe, I guess, if we're comparing things, when you hold, like, an Xbox controller and you get the vibration in the Xbox controller, how does it differ from that feeling when you're actually playing the cabinet? It's not a rumble. It's a click. I mean, it is, like, it's... Actual impact. Yeah, yeah. It's not the rumble kind of feel like in a controller. It's an impact. So when a ball hits a bumper, like, you impact. Yeah. Cool. basically exactly like a solenoid because it's that that hammer punch and not just a rolling wave that would be in your controller yeah exactly how does it um how does that feel though because i know that again with your full-size cabs that you've got out there i believe you have uh solenoids in those too correct yep there's solenoids in those so how does it compare to a full-size machine like that yeah that's a good that's a good question it actually feels the same It feels the same as a larger format machine.
    20:37
    That's pretty cool. That is really cool. And just so you know, and I didn't go over this in the video, but in the settings, we give you the option to turn off the solenoid. So if you want like a night mode, it'll be quiet.
    20:49
    Oh, that's neat. Night mode? Night mode. So the other thing. Babies, whatever. Yeah, or you live in apartments. that would be, I'd imagine, big solenoids hammering away constantly might be a problem. That's a fair call. That actually brings me on to some other questions I had about, I guess, from not so much the hardware side but the software side. A lot of folks, I'm sort of hanging around in a couple of the Facebook forums for Arcade1Up, and a lot of people are asking, can we turn off the Zen animations? Can we turn off the score pop-ups? All this sort of stuff that we often do on Steam. How does that translate into the table package? Can you do that sort of thing in there too? You can turn off the ball trails or ball effects, whatever you call them. Everyone has different terms. But you can turn off the in-game animations.
    21:43
    On the Williams games, those are shipping in their authentic recreation. So you're not going to have all the second version.
    21:55
    That's also pro physics there. but you can turn on and off ball effects so that's kind of across the board for all three games you can turn off so when you say the ball effects you mean also the scores that pop up that's a good question I don't know if it's turning off the pop up scores I think it's just the ball effects I can go check it out after this yeah alright you don't look at it because you're looking for something very specific I actually haven't I haven't even turned off the ball effects myself so well that's interesting that's a good one to sort of get out there because i think a lot of people want to know like if they can just make it more look like just traditional pinball like without some of the zen overlay stuff over the top of it and then you said that uh the williams tables are going to be playing with the pro or the williams physics as we like to refer to them as um is that going to be though like right now the tables that are pre-volume 4 lack the flipper physics that the ones volume 4 and after do have Is that going to be still the case with these selected tables or has that been put back the improved physics put into those early tables for this cabinet release? Yeah, those tables have the improved physics. So we've been working on getting all of our tables implemented with those Williams physics, and those are done, and those are shipping in the game with those updates. Very good. Another thing people have been asking us about for sure.
    23:33
    And it's also the uncensored versions of those tables as well. So we have our rating limitations in various platforms, but here getting the full unaltered versions. Of course, the funny thing about that is that so many of the alterations are on the side art of the cabinet, the back box of the cabinet, which we're not going to be seeing anyway. so yeah you know there's things in the content i mean you know there's just little things but uh it's all there are there any swappable graphics uh like if you in the case of attack from mars if you didn't want the back box to be attacked from mars but you want to be one of the other tables there are there is there the ability to swap in a different graphic there you could take that thing apart and put whatever you want in there yeah okay it's it's not necessarily something that was in, like, it's not shipping with extra items that we know of, I should say. It's not shipping with anything. Look, this first, we had a goal in mind to get units out for this holiday season, and we absolutely had to do that. Along the way, we discovered a lot of things that would be cool to do in the future, and we will do those things in the future, but we also kept in mind as we realized all that, hey, we need to make sure that these first machines can also be brought up to speed if people want them and they don't want to buy another machine. So that was very important because this is a long, you know, this is just step one. And like I think about when phones launched at the very first phone in the next year, there's a better phone and there's a better phone. Right. It's just a hardware and software go. But keeping in mind that we want the people who embrace us the very first time through give you every option and opportunity to just, you know, hopefully a very low cost to just keep upgrading your machine. That is excellent news. I think people will be quite happy to hear that they can just put a new board in. And, I mean, you've done it. It doesn't seem that difficult to do.
    25:24
    So, yeah, that's excellent news. It was enjoyable. It was like a big kid Lego project. And my daughter, Scarlett, who's my gamer, she loved it. She was working with me on it. It was a lot of fun.
    25:35
    I have a question about the, you know, because I'm a nerd, the frame rate and resolution of the cabinet end screen. So we know it's 60 frames per second. That's good. What about the screen resolution? Is it 720 or 1080? It's 720. 720, right. And we sacrificed some visual fidelity for performance with pinball. If you have frame rate issues the game... You drop the resolution, it's an easy fix. Yeah. That being said, on a 24-inch monitor, it's much more forgiving at 720. Yeah. Between 720 and 1080, I suppose, if you start going larger than your own CCing pixels.
    26:24
    It looks like, I don't know if this is the case, but is it sort of like a hybrid Android build? Like the Williams Pinball sort of style build? Or is it completely different? Like we would never have seen this software before in any flavor. No, it's a good question. I've been wanting to talk about this for a while. You know, I did hear that machines are shipping. So, yeah, I mean, this is running basically a high-end Android version of the game. So when you think about keeping the cost down, you know, we're not running a high-end PC in there. It is hardware. The chipset, you know, and chipsets are changing very quickly with Android. So very soon, actually, we could have an even more powerful chip in there. And that's, like I said, the update sort of kit that we can get out to people. They just want to go there and give them a board and they swap it in and there you go.
    27:14
    So it would be feasible if you add features, you know, things like, you know, leaderboard connectivity stuff down the track. It's just a board. You put it in and you're away. You can just use the shell to keep on upgrading the thing until it gets to the point where perhaps you might want to drop in a new monitor, like a high resolution monitor or something like that with some of the newer builds. I imagine. That's really good. And, you know, just you kind of touched on wireless, like functionality for leaderboards and things like that. Look, it is easy. People are asking, why don't you have wireless? Well, yeah, we could put a wireless receiver, a dongle, anything in there and make it wireless. But what does that mean? I mean, the experience that you go online and if there's a store, like, what are you looking at? How are you connecting? That is just a massive undertaking and infrastructure and a live service and another platform. I have to go get approvals like, hey, licensors, then it's now going to have our own store. We're going to have our own platform, like distribution of content. Are we texting for piracy? Do we have user accounts? I mean, like, you don't just launch a – yeah, it is wireless. I mean, like, we would be still probably next year before we got anything out, like this time next year, we'd have a store to be ready and a true online service. So why didn't we do wireless? I mean, there's a lot of really good, you know, reasons, but I think in our roadmap you can see where this will go. It's funny because I saw John D. in an interview where he was saying, yeah, the actual part to make it wireless, that's dirt cheap. He goes, but then you've got to create the network and you've got to staff the network and you've got to have all these people programming the network and making sure it's functioning. And he's like, there's where your cost is.
    28:48
    Yeah. And look, what we're launching is, I mean, we're going to see, right? We need a little bit of a proof of concept knowing that there is a demand. People do want to buy something like, you know, people want to invest in this. So we're putting forward what I think is a fantastic product at a price point that's unbelievable. And people say, well why is this price point so much higher than the others? Well, keep in mind, guys, Arcade 1UP is officially licensed product and that carries an overhead in itself, which is more higher than another company per se who's got lesser known or less popular, at least lesser expensive licenses. Or they think they can get access to the licensed content without having to pay for it. So, you know, like this is a legitimate business enterprise to, so there's a lot involved. The price that we hit is actually incredible. So the wireless stuff come later. That's where it's, I'm amazed that, obviously it seemed like there was a game of chicken between the four companies. Who was going to announce their price first? Who was going to announce launch first? Who was going to show their render first? And the fact that everybody was kind of aiming right at, I mean, I think they're all within $100 of each other, basically.
    29:58
    So it's incredible that, obviously, to go from this price point at $500 to $600, and then if you want to go to your next step of virtual cab, suddenly you're at $2,000. So, yeah, it's amazing the price jump. It's a very good entry level to at least entice people. Try it out. Yeah. Work out whether a pinball machine in your home is actually something you want. like before it was a $2,000 experiment. Now it's, you know, $500 or $600 US experiment, which, you know, I think I could probably swallow that a little bit easier.
    30:33
    What we're going to find is, you know, these are going to be, look, if you're a hardcore pinball player and you've come up, that was part of your childhood and it was part of you growing up in arcades, you're going to look at this machine and you might think a certain thing about it. But I'll tell you what, someone from my kids' generation who's never been around a pinball machine and they see this thing, it's magnetic, and they get their first pinball experience. And I think more pinball is better. The future of this is all ships rise. So this is built for a very specific purpose for, you know, fit in the home, be affordable, be fun.
    31:10
    I think we've accomplished that. Who – is it you or is it one-up? Is it a combination of both? How do you guys pick which tables were going to be Put into each of these cabs It's a good question We kind of want you know we got a lot of tables For Star Wars Marvel and Williams We wanted just a good selection of themes And content whether it was character based Or location based or film based In the case of Star Wars For Marvel just like You know if you'll notice there's no cinematic Tables in this game It's all comic based So Marvel they had a lot to say about that. The MCU stuff, they wanted maybe in its own unit, maybe. I don't know. We'll see. For William, yeah, it was just about like, you know, we love all these games. How do you pick your favorite? You know, that was it. That's the process. Roll the dice and there you go. I assume that Marvel also is the one... They came up with the cabinet art regardless of what the actual tables that you have include. And I only say that because I see Black Panther and there is no Black Panther table.
    32:20
    That's a very, very, very small, very quick cameo in Civil War table. Oh, okay. Because I realized I was like, you know, in order to have Captain Marvel on there, they've got to put in A-Force. And I was correct about that one.
    32:36
    And you know what? The licensing effort for this is unbelievable what has gone on. You know, we deal with the games groups. this is a physical product now so it goes through a different licensing group um at disney for marvel and lucasfilm but then you have crossover between the games team and the physical products team you've got music you've got the game itself you've got likeness i mean what goes into this is unbelievable and that's why you know i i've been so vocal and so like you know this is the way you do it right you can't just come over here and take our stuff and promote it and say, buy our machine. It doesn't work like that.
    33:16
    You had made mention of this, again, last time we talked to you, and a lot obviously can change within that time period. But you had mentioned that since quite a few of the, either the Marvel or the Star Wars tables are wide body, and that's not the shape of the monitor, that some of them are going to maybe have to have their, the shape of the table change somehow, or you'd mentioned that it was going to need to be able to fit the monitor. Are they going to look in cabinet mode wildly different than what they look on, say, your phone, which obviously is a cabinet mode view? Yeah, they're going to look different. We moved the camera itself, the positioning of the camera, so the table is formatted correctly. Again, another optimization, another bunch of work that we did for every 30 of these tables, right?
    34:03
    And so, yeah, they're going to look different than what they were before. My TV went to sleep. Yeah, it did go to sleep.
    34:10
    Because I think that's also something to point out for anybody that is thinking of, well, hey, I already have a virtual cab. Why would I want to get one of these? It is going to be a different view than if you just had Steam running on your virtual cab.
    34:26
    Yeah it a different view I mean like the cab features that we optimized for Steam there so many different hardware we never be able to like give everybody their own specific optimization so we try to provide you know I think the roadmap is like we give people tools to optimize whatever screen they're using but these ones are specifically optimized for this size screen in this environment with the hardware that's inside the machine I've got a question that sort of relates to when you're in game and you're playing the table i notice a lot of the time on certainly the belly williams machines with the uh the zen fit uh zen graphics um the players the the the character animations and they tend to be more oriented at people playing on a screen like for example a ps4 or an xbox that sort of orientation the figures look at you like that but when you actually got the the tables in maybe a portrait mode on your computer, they tend to still look forward and not up at you. Have you sort of done any refinements to how the characters address you as a player in the game for those ones that actually have characters that sort of do that in the tables? No, I don't think we've made any changes there. I'd have to check on that to be honest though, but just from my experience playing, I don't notice any difference in positioning of the characters and the way that they're responding to you. Sorry, my dog is barking. I don't know if you can hear him or not. I'm sure I've got kids yelling in the background.
    35:58
    It's fine. My phone went off earlier. We're a tightly run ship here. Yeah. I didn't notice any changes to the character replacements in 3D Interactive Characters and whatnot, but I could ask the guys if they did make any tweaks like that. Yeah, okay.
    36:17
    Obviously, these are all tables that with the Marvel and Star Wars, those are licensed that I think those are why those are going into the retail stores because anybody can see that and immediately go, oh yeah, I want that. Which I find it strangely enough that the Attack from Mars cabinet, which I know a lot of us more hardcore pinball players are like, that's the one we'd want, but that one's going to be online only. But I kind of almost get it in terms of what grabs the attention on a store shelf. But where that makes me wonder is, what could be the future of Zen originals and like the non-licensed Zen originals appearing in the cabinet at some time?
    36:56
    Yeah, I think so. There's a lot of, you know, there's a lot of options on the table for what we can do. And what we want with the retail business is they need things at a certain price point and they want things with a certain IP on it. And they, you know, the buyers respond a certain way to that. If you get a little too expensive and they don't, they don't want to run it. They just can't sell it here. If you don't have the right IP, it's not going to find its audience with these stores. So I know RK1UP is building their online presence so that they can ship direct to consumer. It will actually also save costs because then you get rid of a lot of middlemen, so to speak, in the retail model.
    37:33
    A lot of people have asked for specific Zen IPs branded on the cabinet. It would be cool. Personally, I'd love to have a Doom machine.
    37:42
    This is my rock and roll pinball. That's what I think about. I want the aliens one. Alien. I'm just aliens. Come on.
    37:51
    Yeah. Aliens. Machines with cool artwork that people want or make it swappable. Like just, you can have your machine be alien this month because it's April 26th. Alien day is coming. And then like, now we're getting ready for May 4th. So we've got my, my Star Wars thing. Can we make it customizable? And then the online connectivity, uh, enables other content to be, you know, downloaded to the machine. Or do we ship a game where that has a limited number of tables? because we can't build a 20-table universe with every brand, and then we just supplement it with Zen Originals. So there's a lot of different options on the table. Again, look, the good news is we had an allocation of Marvel units go to GameStop the other day, and they sold out, like, instantly. So we said, okay, good first step, you know. I can't tell you what the number is, but it's impressive.
    38:38
    And so we're seeing the response, and it's like, you go to the next step. I mean, that's the way it's going to go.
    38:48
    Good. Yeah, we're very curious to see, I mean, from all indications, all these pre-orders of all these cabinets are just going to fly.
    38:59
    So, I mean, we keep on saying that this is nothing but a good thing for digital pinball because the more eyeballs that get on this sort of thing means the more people that are going to seek it out, on their consoles or on Steam and go, oh my gosh, look at all these other games. And then you throw on the form factor of an actual cab in your home. I think it's just primed to explode, which is why it's so exciting to hear you guys tout that you have this 10-year plan. I honestly believe, I mean, here on the RK1 upside, I think a lot of people do want a pinball machine in their home and they have different ideas of what that might look like based on price and footprint. and I think if you reduce the size and you make it affordable I think those are the two things that have been blocking mass market pinball machine adoption in the home and that's why you see such a race to get here like all these companies all of a sudden trying to get their piece and their share and that's fine I think that that's fantastic there should be options like more options is better for the market competitive mix companies you know have to do better and provide a better proposition but the long-term health of pinball I think that this is a major thing that can really invigorate a whole new audience, just grow a new fan base. My kids, they enjoy pinball for a little bit on the Xbox, but I put this thing in Scarlett's room and they play it every day. I don't even ask them to. They're like, Dad, can we play a game real quick? We haven't played Fantastic Four yet. We want to play. Then we have a piece of their home that's very special. We want to give them something that's really worth it, that they feel good about investing in. And this is what I've been saying with having an arcade one-up street fighter cab sitting there in my living room. It's not something that I ever wanted to play on PC because playing on a controller to me wasn't the experience. Having it in cab form with proper buttons and a joystick and the ability to just turn it on and 30 seconds later be playing, I've played that so much more than I ever would have if I was like, oh, I got to go sit at the computer, turn on the computer, boot up Steam, get the game loaded. By that time, you're almost like, do I really want it? Nah, and then you walk away from it.
    41:09
    Well, look, I mean, this game has been around, I always say this, pinball is way older than I am, like three times as old as I am, right? And it keeps going, and it transcends, and it's demographic-less. One of the main reasons for that is that it's fun. And we always get kind of caught up, and there's all this stuff flying around. But I mean, like, especially right now, it's just cool to like be sending something to somebody or to a family's home where it's going to help them have fun, especially in today's environment and stuff. And that's what I am so excited about. And that sounds a little, you know, it is what it is, but it's like it's very fun. And I'm proud of that. So give us a little preview.
    41:47
    2020 was supposed to be, what was the term, just wild? or I can't remember what the term was you guys said, and obviously nobody predicted what was going to happen. So what's 2021 looking like for Zen Studios and pinball?
    42:03
    Okay. Well, we have something that we're going to hopefully reveal this year that will set the stage for next year. We want to go out with a bang. We know.
    42:17
    I'm probably the biggest one at fault, so I'll raise my hand and say, you know we're very excited about everything we got going on and there's a lot of it and it's just it's taking on a shape that is uh like bigger and more exciting than what i thought it would be and therefore we've seen delays with it we do need to be better about communicating um you know what's happening and when and all that and we're creating a format which i think we're going to be able to do that and keep everybody engaged and up to speed and be very conversational so So hopefully this year we're going to already start to improve that and give you guys something and a real glimpse into what's happening for next year because next year in 2022, you will actually see the results of all the work we've been doing that we've been talking about since last year. You will absolutely see it and it will, I hope, make everybody smile and be like, okay, now I get it.
    43:13
    Hopefully everyone will just forget about the 2020 and go, all right, Yeah, whatever. That was just one of those years. I'm pretty sure that everybody just wants to forget 2020 in general. I think they really do.
    43:26
    And I'll reiterate, Zen's commitment to pinball is not diminished by any means. It is bigger. It is more grand. We have maybe some really out there and going to outer space type of ideas, but they're happening.
    43:43
    That is awesome. Well, Mel, I think that's all the questions we have for you at this time. I feel like we... Jared, is there anything we didn't touch upon that we needed to touch upon? I just thought of one more then, actually.
    43:56
    Your comments about getting, like, working out into a machine, turning it on, and then playing. What's that experience like on the 1UP cab? Like, how long from power on to play?
    44:08
    From power on to play, I'd say it's 30 seconds, 45 seconds at the very most. I guess it's a good time yet. Yeah. It'd be a good video to do actually to show people how long they can expect to just like turn it on. Not even enough time to make a coffee basically.
    44:25
    Yeah. The other day when we were doing our video, I wanted, there was other things that we were trying to get with the lighting. Just, we were, we had no power here in California. We were generator with extension cords and we had some lighting, but I'm going to just, you know, not have better lighting. Maybe I'll just take some more clips and post them. Awesome. That was, that was the last one, Chris. Okay. Well, with that, we want to say thanks again, Mel. You're always a pleasure to have on to the show and sharing with us what you can, because obviously there's plenty that you can't share.
    44:56
    And, yeah, I can't wait to actually get my hands on one of these cabs. I don't know when that will be, but I… Me too. Yeah.
    45:08
    Again, I have no idea. Because it's like the last time I touched a virtual cab was maybe, okay, two and a half years ago, and that was the Arcuda Beta cab, which didn't have haptic feedback. And so there was a lot missing from what I wanted to feel with a virtual cab experience. So we're definitely looking forward to seeing these and seeing people's reactions to them.
    45:30
    And I'd just say, yeah, thank you guys for having me. I always appreciate the way you guys are covering news in the industry. I think you guys did it the right way so happy to share alright everybody that there is Mel Kirk COO of Zen Studios that guy over there we go, gotta look properly that's Jared on the other side of the world and in the future and I'm me hey, thanks everybody, we will see you again buh-bye see y'all