highway pinball the aftermath spooky pinball announces second scott denisi game stern pinball lures Doug Skor from chicago gaming hi my name is jonathan houston and i'm martin ayub and welcome to the pinball magazine and Pinball News audio podcast. And what an exciting time it's been over the past month, Jonathan. It has certainly been. You've been to Golden State Pinball Show? Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. The very first ever Golden State Pinball Festival, which took place in the town or city, I'm never quite sure in American terms. things seem to be a city when they're quite small but the uh let's call it's separate it's it's in the uh in the place called Lodi which is in northern California south of Sacramento north of San Francisco and in the wine region and um it's kind of I have to be very careful how I phrase this it's a kind of continuation of um the pinnagogo shows from the last few years which have been run by the Northern Californian Pinball Association. They wanted to expand that show, have more games, have more vendors, and bring in some educational value to it as well. So they moved it up to Lodi, to the great festival showgrounds there. And it was an amazing place. They invited me to come over, and I was privileged to be there as part of the first show. And although I spent most of my time in the Pinball University Hall doing the audio and video for them and recording and putting on Pinball News and making sure they got everybody mic'd up and they got their presentations working properly, working with Ron Chan on that. The whole thing was a very nice, laid-back, relaxed, generally enjoyable three days of pinball without a huge amount of pressure. Like some of these shows that you go to, they have really intense tournaments where you've got to spend like three days queuing up in line just to do your qualifying. It's not at all like that at that show. You can just play in the pin golf, the only tournament they have there really. And although it's very competitive, it's much more friendly and inviting and inclusive. and the whole thing was just you can turn up at any time, do whatever you want play some games buy some parts, go to a barbecue, go to the nearby wine festival they had a Zinfest event taking place and they even had buses running from just outside the gates to the Zinfest festival if you wanted to go to that, it was all laid on for you and you can come back, play some more pinball and it was just nice, chilling and the Carl Weathers was wonderful as well so it was overall a really great event and some nice side events there with the Steve Charland award going to Cliffy a well deserved award which sort of brings the very spirit of the pinnagogo and the Californian vibe of a pinball show, which is very different to other parts of the country and other parts of the world, to that event. And so congratulations to Clippy on getting that award, very well deserved. And the whole thing was really exciting, really great to see how they've moved on from taking an existing show, which is very successful and everybody loved, and making it just a little bit extra special. So that was my enjoyment at the beginning of May in Lodi in Northern California. Okay. And as always, you put up a great report on pinballnews.com with all the seminars and stuff like that. So it's highly recommended for people to take a look over there to see what they missed out on if they weren't there or to check the seminars if you missed them anyway. Thanks very much. And I should also add that although I've got the audio recordings on there, very shortly I think Ron is working to bring you all the actual videos of all the seminars as well. So you'll be able to get those. I recorded the audio in high quality and I passed all that over to Ron so he can sync the video and the audio together and get a full production together and put it on the Golden State People Festival YouTube channel. Okay, excellent. So aside from you visiting the Golden State, let's pick up where we basically left the last time we did this, which was the announced liquidation of Highway Pinball and you were about to interview Andrew Highway. That's correct, yeah. I couldn't say too much about it in the last podcast because although I got the answers back from Andrew from some of the questions I'd asked him I still had further follow-up questions and I hadn't quite fully formed the way the article was going to be published It was an interesting event, I think let's put it that way I went on to Pinside which is one of the first times I'd gone on to Pinside and I asked people for what, people who who owed money or had some investment interest in Alien Games, what they would like to ask Andrew were they in the position of being able to do that and as is Pinside you get a reasonable amount of noise back but also some interesting questions there as well some points I wanted to incorporate into my questions I asked Andrew and that's exactly what I did I added those to the ones I had and I think at the end of it people were pretty much unanimous that it was a very worthwhile interview you can choose to believe or not believe whatever you like but it came back as a robust, shall I say, interview, not in any way or form a sort of softball one, which a lot of people were expecting it to be. I know, I know. I've been to Andrew's place. I've stayed at his house a few times. You know, we get on very well. I've run tournaments at his place. We have a good working relationship over the years. We've shared hotel rooms at Expo. Oh my goodness, you were almost married. let's not go that far but yeah i understand exactly what you're saying yeah um and and it was it was difficult for me to ask him questions in the way that i felt they needed to be asked but i put it to him right from the very start it looks it's got to be a very robust and without being an aggressive into it it's got to be it can't can't skirt any of the points which I have to ask. And he was absolutely on board about that. He understood that there would be no credibility to it whatsoever if I didn't ask those questions and get responses which merit consideration. So I didn't like the format of having to write the answers down to him. I wanted to do it as a live interview, but given the situation, I think that was the best way of doing it. But it didn't stop me being able to come back to him at various points and say, but what about what you just said there? And so what you're saying is, and to clarify various points, to make sure that it was absolutely clear what he was saying. Right. Well, I definitely agree. The interview is definitely a worthwhile read. there were a couple of answers that Andrew gave where I felt he was still ducking especially when it came to ex-employees who reported on stuff on This Week in Pinball or on Pinside and then basically he would say well they're ex-employees for a reason, well the reason was they thought he was an idiot and they couldn't handle working for him anymore so they left well yes I didn't want to get into a sort of slanging match between the two of them and say, well, X says this and Y says that, but you say Z, and it would just never end, basically. People are allowed to have a difference of opinion. If somebody says, well, you shouldn't have done this, and somebody says, well, you should have done this, and he says, well, what I actually did was this, there's no squaring of the circle in that case. There are differences of opinions. At the end of the day, he was in charge of the company. He was in charge of the finances and at some point or other, he had to make a decision as to exactly what's going to happen and be it right or wrong, that was what he did and that's what I was asking questions about. Mad Fientist Right. Okay. So then days later after you published the interview, you also got the financial report on the liquidation of Highway Pinball which is very interesting. Yeah, absolutely. There was a letter sent out to all the creditors with a rather large notice at the top saying do not publish. But I thought it was sufficiently in the public interest that it should have been published. and it actually probably would be largely published anyway in terms of the filings that needed to be made for legal reasons to Companies House in the UK, which is the organisation which deals with the financial statements and standings of various companies. So they publish their annual report, that should go to Companies House and be made publicly available. If they go into liquidation, if they go into administration, they're going to cease trading all that stuff has to be reported through the same company's house website so i thought well most of this is going to be available publicly anyway and the only thing i did was i made sure that everybody who was individually listed on there as a creditor people who were paid money and not receive their own games and were listed in the documents with their name and their address. I took that out or I obfuscated it and I blurred it so people couldn't see who that was. I thought those people deserved that anonymity, but not the companies. People like Cointaker and Nitro, they are businesses, so that's slightly different, I felt. I didn't get any kickback on that. Nobody said you shouldn't have shown that. but apart from that the rest of it was exactly as it was sent out to everybody who was registered as a creditor and I thought that was a major part of the story as well and needed to be made public right and of course the result was that there were no assets and there were severe liabilities and that the Pinball Brothers company were in receipt of a number of the assets of the company before they went into liquidation right and I can't really comment on that because I well we'll see how that pans out in the future I mean there is I hear rumors that they're still in contact with people and trying to um to get them their money so let's just hope for the best and um i'm not sure whether we can round up highway pinball for now the good news is that um for those that have an avian game and although it's not that many um uh helmut uh langenbroek one of the programmers actually finished the final code for the game and anybody interested in updating their game to the latest game code should contact him so that they have at least a finished coded game. Yes, I think that's version 1.2 of the game. And I think what's actually interesting there is that prior to this happening, Pinball Brothers, when they started up, had registered a website, pinballbrothers.com. but there was nothing on it when you went there there was no index page, there was basically nothing when Helmut announced version 1.2 of the code he announced it was available on pinballbrothers.com so and he was required although he said it was very clear he wasn't working for pinballbrothers he said it was very clear that it had to be on the pinball brothers website as they he didn't say this but i'm guessing that they are the owners of the alien pinball license and therefore the only ones who can release all the assets you know all the samples and the video clips that are related to the alien movies right they're the only ones who are legally allowed to distribute that nobody can differ that out of themselves so it went the kind of legal route even though he's not working for them directly so if you want to get this I guess you go to the Bimble Brothers website bimblebrothers.com website anything else on highway or can we close the coffin on the casket I'm sure we'll hear more on that to come but at the moment There's no impending news. There's no court cases going on. There's no legal action as far as I'm aware. But on the other hand, there's still Pimple Brothers as a company who have alien machines and are looking to sell them and have a website with the code on. So maybe there'll be more going on there. I don't know. But for now, I think, yes, you're right. We should draw a line under that for the moment. Right. Okay, then let's move on with some more positive news. Let's address Stern Pinball. Yes, Stern has been very busy over the past few weeks. Right. The number of game codes upgrades for Star Wars, Batman, Guardians of the Galaxy and... Iron Maiden. Indeed Iron Maiden which is getting very very close to a release version the way Stern seem to number their code versions is that version 1.0.0 is a release version it's got everything in there although it may not be as polished and as finished as they would like but it is they would be happy, well, happy, they would be content to walk away from the game at version 1.0.0 and say it's done. Right. And anything after that is, you know, polished, nice to have, but not absolutely essential. So Star Wars, which was the first one we mentioned, reached version 1.0.0 a while ago. Batman is still not at version 1.0.0 yet. 0.92. getting closer all the time. Right. Guardians of the Galaxy, I forget exactly how close that is, but it's not. Oh, it says 1.00, yes. Is it? Oh, it is. Okay, it has made it. And Iron Maiden being the latest release, not quite there. 0.98 so far. Okay, so it's just a little bit away from being fully featured. Okay, so that's probably quite a good situation for Stern to be in at this stage. Right. They hired a lot of extra software people, so it was about time that we started seeing games getting close to this initial or this full 1.0.0 software versions, I'd say. And there's still quite a few games waiting to get to that level of code, but let's not get in there. What they're doing right now is already quite remarkable, so kudos to Stern for that. Stern also announced Star Trek going back into production as a vault edition in both a pro and premium model. I guess they can't do it in a limited edition version because it would be limited in that case. But, yeah, it's interesting. There's not a new Star Wars movie coming out, is there? Well, we're talking Star Trek, but that's okay. Oh, sorry. I've got the same problem even Steve Ritchie has that problem with Star Trek being a game from 2013 I thought it was quite early to do Vault Edition games yeah that's got to be the most recent Vault Edition I mean I think they did a Vault Edition game for Iron Man a while ago I have no idea how long that was since they did that game. But if you take a look at, for example, at a game like Metallica, I think they ran that for like six years in a row without doing ever a vault edition. Yeah, I think it was always on the line, wasn't it? That's the thing with that game. So I was kind of surprised to see that. I mean, if they would be rerunning Star Trek, that's fine, but why would it be a vault edition? It's only been like five years. I wonder whether they have a kind of undeclared rule that if it's not the current game by the designer, it must therefore be a vault edition. It could also be that the license expired and that they had to renew it. So it was off the production line for a while because they had no license in place and they renewed it and now they can make the game again. It's an interesting one, though. I wouldn't have thought there'd been a huge demand for Star Trek games at the moment with the lack of a new movie coming out. But if Stern think the demand is there, then obviously they're right to produce them as a vault edition. And that will be obviously going back to the DMD versions rather than the... They've already said that they won't try and LCD the vault edition games. they will keep them as LCDs or LEDs. Frankly, the games are going to be identical to the ones that you can buy now on a second-hand market. So if you're after a game and you don't want to pay the full price for a new one, then you might be able to find one for less, I guess. Probably for that game, but also remember that when Iron Man came out as a bought edition, it had the metallicized side art. So that was a bonus for those people who bought the vault. Won't be the case in this case. The press release clearly states that there will be no changes made to the game. Okay, that's fair enough, because you can imagine that when Iron Man first came out, it was incandescent bulbs as well, during the illumination. Whereas when Star Trek came out, it was LED'd in the first place. Right. Moving on with Stern, the Iron Maiden premium photos were presented last month we already had seen the pro and limited edition photos and they are already shipping those games but the premium we hadn't seen yet those got out and they're on Stern's Facebook for anybody to want to take a look I think they went further with the Egyptian theme eddies and so on Yes. Oh, in no doubt, that title is absolutely, I don't want to use the word lush, but it's fabulous in terms of the artwork. It's so rich and detailed and it's just a fantastic job all the way around. So kudos to Stern and to Christopher Franchi for that. he did a real really, as you said it in the past he knocked out the ballpark and I think he's done it again with the premium edition. Right, so I got a chance to play both the LE and the pro version last weekend at Pinball Universe I'm impressed with the game but I also see that it is so deep and there's so much stuff in there I mean Kirsten who is working for Pimble Universe was explaining to me how to play the game and what you have to how to play the game let's go with that and he was already getting into so much detail and I was like how is an average player ever going to discover this unless they read a complete manual which actually Stern put out for the game but like how to play the game I mean, there's so much in there and so many different levels of things that, while it's impressive, it's also quite intimidating, which I'm not sure whether that's a good thing. I actually agree. It an interesting discussion because I always thought that I loved games that had really deep rulesets My I guess desert island game for a long time was the Simpsons Pinball Party with software by Keith P. Johnson Simply because it was so deep and it had so many levels. But, and this was something I didn't really appreciate at the time, it was actually quite understandable. you know the you could you could just say this is these are the various routes you need to go through to get to the wizard mode right and they were not that complicated themselves but since then games have got far more complicated um including keystone you know with the wizard of and hobbit and i've realized i've actually got to the point where it's overwhelming me now and I don't like games which are so deep and complex that I can never understand the rules and I and like you I actually walked up to um an iron maiden game for the first time the other day it was actually free gold watch in San Francisco and it was a pro model and I kind of took the total beginner approach to it and saying okay what am I meant to shoot for and the answer was I have absolutely no idea and that kind of bummed me out a bit because I heard such good news about the game and I was really looking forward to playing it and like you I played the Archer game over at Pinball Museum Arcade Expo that's the one with Keith and Randy there and we both thoroughly enjoyed that layout and I played it as Iron Maiden with some adjustments and got the feeling that they probably packed in a couple more shots and narrowed all the existing ones and it didn't flow as well as I'd been anticipating. I was seeing a lot of posts. I have to agree with you on that. The Archer Whitewood, and maybe because it was a Whitewood, but that game had great flow and also theme-wise, even though I have never ever seen an Archer episode in my life. I could understand the humor of the game, and it was funny, I liked the music in it, so I was very impressed with that Archer layout, especially the layout with the four flippers and the loop within the loop. And for some reason I got the feeling that that Archer layout came better to its right than on the current Stern Iron Maiden game, if that makes any sense. Yeah, it does. Yeah, I agree with you on that. As I say, I think maybe they've tried to fit in a couple of extra shots there which weren't in the original, and it's narrowed all the existing shots. Or they sort of overproduced it, let's put it like that, like with music productions often is the case. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, maybe some of the posts have been fattened out a bit, and made it a little more robust. It could well be that Archer, as it stood and as we played it, was actually impractical to make. You know, things would have broken off and the posters weren't thick enough. So in actually making it manufacturable, some changes need to be made, and that's an inevitable consequence. But, yeah, it was slightly disappointing from that point of view. But looking at the production, the overall production of the game, it was undoubtedly very impressive. Yeah. And probably not the smartest thing to say, but I'm not a fan of Iron Maiden as a band. I have to note that I couldn't watch the live streams with the music because it was too much energy and high notes and everything. But when you're actually playing the game, you're not really paying that much attention to the music at all. It's just a blur in the background. Yeah, obviously on location, but this was at a show as well. The music's a lot more in the background than it would be if it's the one and only game that anybody's playing. When you're sitting there in a lineup of 20 machines or whatever, yeah, it's going to get drowned out. That's true. And same with the voice calls. You know, you struggle to hear what's being told to you, which is why you need to have the inserts flashing and get other cues on the display telling you what it is you need to shoot for. I have to say the display animations, they really knocked them out of the park. I think those are the best animations we've seen on a Stern game so far. Well, the interesting thing there is that they are, I guess, custom animations for the game. They're not putting video clips from a movie as they were with, say, Star Wars, for example. It's more going back to the kind of Aerosmith style of having to make everything from scratch. Well, that was their second LCD game, and this is now their fourth, I think. Yeah. and I was I like the whole style that they used on the back glass and also how they are trying to give the player hints although it has to explain to you first to understand that those are hints and what they stand for but I think they're I was impressed with the LCD package yeah I have no argument there I thought But there was obviously a lot of work put into that, and it wasn't culling assets from other places. They actually really had to work at it, and they did a good job on it. So they did all the other artwork in the game and the whole production package. So that was good news. But also we saw a preview, shall we say, of what might be an upcoming game. Right. on Facebook a person who calls himself Pinball Paparazzi leaked in between quotation marks if you want to an image of the Deadpool Whitewood I have to say I've seen that photo for the first time circulating at Texas Pinball Festival in March already so I'm surprised it took over two months before it got leaked on the internet so I knew that that photo was going around and apparently people were speculating whether it's the John Trudeau version of the game which got scrapped or the Gomez version of the game I'm leaning towards this is the Gomez version of the game as it has the first sketch of zombie yeti artwork that is supposed to be on the game laid out on the playfield i don't see why you would put that on a playfield that you're not going to manufacture agreed and i have to first of all say that i haven't seen this uh this picture but i'm aware Deadpool has been a long time mooted license for Stern, and I'm guessing now it's going to be Deadpool 2, as that movie's out and about now. So maybe it'll incorporate both. Don't count on that, because also with Guardians of the Galaxy, they only incorporated one movie while the second was already out. So that's not a guarantee. True, yeah. So do you want to give us any information about what exactly is in this photo for those who haven't seen it? I need to get it on my screen. I don't have it up in front of me right now. Give me a second. But you're saying it includes some sketch, some outline artwork on it as well as a playful layout. Right. Hold on. I got it over here. I'm so quick on my computer. You're good. you're a king of the internet so I'm just waiting for it to pop up on my screen here you go so basically what we have there's a big in the artwork there's a big Deadpool character and there's a number of other characters I haven't seen any of the movies so I have really no idea who they are but they are in front of the bigger character who's sort of like overpowering everybody else in the background and this play field has all red plastics like we used to see on Whitewood games so we got it's based on the comic book version of the game not on the movie so you have your answer there is a Deadpool character standing on a what appears to be a three bank drop target which is sort of in the center of the playfield above the right flipper, slightly off-center, but that narrows it down. And it has two ramps, which one is sort of, it ends in the right in-lane, and it is shaped like a sword, which we've seen before. But the interesting shot here is that you can shoot that ramp with the left flipper going to the right and then behind the drop target bank that I just described, it's guided there with a metal wire gate or whatever you want to call it. And then it goes up the ramp all the way at the left of the back of the playfield and then it comes back sort of like on Mustang all the way back to the right of the playfield and then into the right in lane. That's an interesting shot. Quite a long shot if you have to make it as well, I think, because basically you're zigzagging all over the playfield with the ball to get up to the ramp. And then there's, well, I can see three pop bumpers, some rollover lanes. There's a couple of figurines and a 3D model of what appears to be a van in the back, probably with a flasher on top. as I haven't seen any of the movies or read the cartoon. I have no idea what that's about, so we'll see. There's also a smaller ramp on the left that ends in the left in lane. And there's an interesting lock mechanism, which reminds me a little bit of the getaway, I would say. if you remember when you lock the balls on the getaway and on high speed maybe that's even more accurate you shoot the balls from they enter at the top of the playfield and they roll down on above the shooter lane let's call it like that and it appears that there is a similar shot like that over there as well ok There's certainly more getaway than high speed, because high speed locks them in the left and right wire book. Right. Okay. Bless you. Thank you. So, okay, so getaway. And so that's interesting. And once released, the balls are dropped on the right sword ramp, and then they drop into the right in lane, a bit similar to other games like, I don't know, Lord of the Rings or, you know, typical Go-Mans. But is it just a two-flipper game? Yes, as far as I can see, it is a two-flipper game, yes. And the shot to the upper side ramp is from the left flipper going through a lane that feeds it. Yeah. So that's what I can say about that. and then we'll have to see. I actually expect Deadpool. That's probably a game for... Well, July would probably be too soon, I think, but August probably. Yeah, okay. We know that they want to do two games in October and you're going to have to squeeze Deadpool in between. Yeah, I guess maybe they need something to launch within January. I don't know. That could also be the case. but I thought we had Elvira scheduled for January. Well, Elvira seems to be something of a movable project at the moment. They have got a software programmer working on it, which they didn't have before, but who else is working on it? Whether they've got their mechanical engineers and whether they've got video engineers as well, or sorry, video designers and artists working on it, And whether they've got everybody else who needs to work, a sound designer, for instance, to work on it, we don't know. So that could come sooner or later. We just won't know for the moment. Right. But it would be, well, with the second Deadpool movie being in theaters right now, August would be, well, the movie would be out of theaters by August, but then it would probably become available on streaming services or whatever. so Deadpool might still be top of mind with a lot of people yeah Stern have shown that they're not that worried about the timing of their movie themed games they're happy to bring them out weeks, months even years after the actual movie which they're related to comes out right ok and there's still more news regarding Stern Pinball let's combine that with Chicago Gaming because Stern hired DocScore former vice president by now of Chicago Gaming Company yeah former vice president of game development or product development at Chicago but latterly I think that was what November or something it was moved up to vice president of the company but yeah so he's moved over to Stern Pinball to look after their export customers, although not exclusively. He seems to be employed to work with Gary Stern, looking after their export customers, not just having exclusive access or responsibility to those guys. So very important to mention is that Pinball Magazine had the scoop of this news. We reported this five days before Stern sent out their press release. A little birdie told me this is what is very likely going to happen, and you heard it first, or you read it first, on Pinball Magazine. I posted it even on Pinsight and started a topic about it. Indeed you did, yeah, noted, and kudos for getting that. I won't ask you to reveal your sources in this particular instance. Thank you. But go on then, tell us who it was. No, no, no. But the interesting thing is, first let me say, I have interviewed DocScore for Pinball Magazine number five. And this, of course, puts that interview in a whole different situation. because I will be publishing an interview with a vice president of Chicago Gaming who is no longer vice president by the time people are reading that. So are you going to interview again and bring it up to date? Or is it going to be something which... But you'll still have the interview with him when he was at Chicago Gaming? Yes, because the information that he shared and he had some very good suggestions as well is too good not to publish. So that's a definitely worthwhile read, I think. And I'll probably update it. There's still time to talk to Doug. Well, he just finished his first week at Stern, so let's give the man a little break to get accustomed and to get into his new position. But I can't help but think that Stern hiring Doug Skor, who has been a tremendous asset for Chicago Gaming in terms of how he handled their customer service and attending shows, talking to people, basically being the face of the company. I tend to look at this as sort of a strategic hire on top of, aside from Doug's qualities, what he might be doing for Stern. I can see what you're saying. I mean, Doug was, as I said in the Pinball News article about it, I think he spearheaded the whole remake program, really. And he was the public face of that. He was at the pinball shows. He was at the trade shows. He was the face of the remakes, starting with Medieval Madness and then Attack from Mars and then moving on to Game 3, which hasn't been officially announced yet. Right. So it makes you wonder exactly what that means for Chicago Gaming and that third and subsequent titles if Doug's no longer there. Because Doug was very much a guy who thrived on innovation and in creating new markets and new products from an existing company. having worked at World at Serial and various other companies in the past. He was somebody who liked to breathe new life into companies which may have looked a little tired or were looking for a new direction in which to move. And with him no longer at Chicago Gaming, I don't know what that means for remake number four and subsequent ones after that. I don't know either. all I know is that obviously Chicago Gaming hired someone to take over Doug's position although I doubt they would be made vice president immediately but at least to take over the work that he used to be doing but it was very clear that they might need to hire two or three people to fill Doug's core shoes and they might need some time to find the right people to do that I mean Doc was a very hands on guy he put a lot of heart and soul into the company so we'll see how they manage I'm not sure whether this will affect the announcement of remake number 3 I think the delay is being caused by different things going on or not going on in the sense that they're not progressing as fast as they maybe wanted to and like I said to me it felt like a strategic hire from Stern who is known not to be that keen on any competition who are doing too well in their eyes that being said obviously they made Doug an offer and then he went to talk to Doug Duba, the vice president or the president of Chicago Gaming he could have made a counter offer and Doug could have stayed but he chose not to or maybe they didn't make a counter offer, I don't know but yeah, that's great but you can see that Doug's score is very much somebody who likes to pioneer new ventures and new ways of developing the product or the business. And maybe by the time he got to Game 3 of the remake, he was looking for new avenues in which to apply his talents, and maybe Stern came up with an idea of exactly how he could do that. Maybe Stern are looking at pushing their marketing into another area, and Doug would be ideal for that. although he does seem to have been hired into doing export business which doesn't sound that exciting in itself but maybe there's a good potential there the way I understood it Gary Stern is now over 70 and he's getting a bit fed up with going to all the international shows so in time Stern is looking to send Doug instead of Gary and Gary might want to do some fishing on his boat or whatever. Although, personally, I don't see Gary taking it easier. Absolutely not. I'd say Gary lives and breathes going to these pinball shows. He loves meeting all the customers and traveling around the world and being wined and dined and being the face of Stern Pinball across the planet. so that did make me wonder exactly how how Doug and he are going to divide up those responsibilities but we'll see I'm sure they're capable of working it out between themselves yeah and they got time to do that I mean Gary's still there and in good health as far as I know so for a while they will be going to shows together and at some point then Gary might say like you did this one on your own or something like that maybe an increased presence at overseas shows with them sharing the duties right that could also be the case so now speaking of well I was trying to make a bridge to another show oh you're so good at segway well I was going to say speaking of shows Because there was the licensing show in Chicago and from there it's an easy bridge to Spooky Pimble who attended the licensing show and they sort of... That was in Las Vegas, wasn't it? Oh, sorry, Las Vegas, yes. Yes. So confused But apparently they secured a license for a new upcoming game Yeah Spooky seem to have lots of ideas and lots of projects in the pipeline because obviously they've got a, I would say a backlog, but they've got a large order book with existing games from Alice Cooper and Total Nuclear Annihilation. Which I'm happy to say my game arrived. You got yours now? I got Total Nuclear Annihilation, yes. You were looking at buying more than one though, weren't you? Yes, and I still might. The plan is to operate my game. And so far I have not even taken it out of the box because I'm busy with other things. But it's here, it's in good condition. and I was able to play a Total Neutralization at Pimble Universe this weekend so I got my kick there sorry you actually went totally dead on me for a while there you were able to play and then I didn't hear anymore I was able to play the game at Pimble Universe this weekend so I got my kick there and but speaking of scott benisi's total nuclear annihilation see i can do this yeah you're good yeah scott uh did announce a game code update for uh total nuclear annihilation which included another feature uh speed runs if i'm not mistaken which basically means that you have to finish each reactor as fast as possible as you can even including cancelling the animations on the display when you start up a reactor and you put both flippers and continue playing because the timer is running and the quicker you do it so that's interesting well let me then segue into or back to the Golden State Pinball Festival where the Spooky Pinball team were holding a Pinball University or Pinu talk, talking mostly about Alice Cooper's Nightmare Castle. But Charlie, who was there, along with Katie and Bug and Squirrel, Charlie did say announced that he was working with Scott Danesi on a second title no details exactly of what that is or any theme but the fact the two of them are now working together doing a sequel a follow up second game to Total Nuclear Annihilation was very well received at the show and it produced a lot of excitement. I can imagine. Well, Scott did deliver a great game, and I'm very curious to see what he will come up with next. Although apparently it's always difficult if you did your first game to come up with a second game, because usually you put your best ideas in that first game, and then what are you going to do next? well that's always the case with any new designers and it's something which um keith will have to uh just deal with as the follow-up to iron maiden right but we'll see what happens there but um well he's got plenty of titles in the pipeline for stern so he's got this time uh that will work out and like you said there's a huge backlog of games to manufacture at spooky so scott can take it's time to, I guess. Yeah, absolutely. It would be interesting to see whether they keep going down the the multimorphic operating system. Yes. Yeah, rather than going to their own dedicated system. Yeah. I saw on Scott's Facebook that he's already programming sounds for the new game. And since Scott is very keen on working with Multimorphics P3. Oh, P-Rock. That tends to tell me that this is likely to be a P-Rock system game as well. Yes, it would certainly make a lot of sense. It's very... They don't want to end up with a whole plethora of different types of operating system hardware under the bonnet for their games. They've done the PINX system. They're now on the P-ROC system. They want to stick with that route. It's certainly manageable with the sort of numbers they're talking about, the 500, the sub-thousand numbers to go with the P-ROC or P3-ROC. Once it goes far beyond that, then, yes, it would make sense to go to something more bespoke and which would have total ownership. but yeah it's and Scott is also of course very very well versed in programming P-Rock games so it makes sense for him to carry on doing that right so well good luck to Scott and Charlie absolutely yeah they seem to be doing things in a very manageable and controlled and scalable way right so then there is speaking of P3 or P-Rock driven games let's go to Dutch Pinball because Zabowski is also a P-Rock driven game there was some news from Dutch Pinball regarding their current status in the sense that as people may know, Dutch Pinball had a Dutch contract manufacturer and they got a falling out over a disagreement on what price their games should be manufactured. Contract manufacturer told them that they needed more money and that wasn't agreed upon. They tried to find a way to collaborate and then while they agreed on a new deal, apparently their contract manufacturer didn't apply any of the changes into the production of speeding up the process and getting games done for a certain date and as a result basically Dutch Pinball walked away leaving their contract manufacturer with a bunch of parts and about 40 finished games and they've now been sued by their former contract manufacturer so this is ARA just to be clear And there's a lot of speculation going on online on Pinsight, which we won't get into. But I guess the sad news is because that this court case was coming. I can't see that as a surprise. Everybody knew at some point they would. It was just a matter of when. We didn't know when. but the interesting thing is that as a result the scheduled production at Zytec which was about to begin this month has been put on hold as well right and that's been put on hold by Dutch or Zytec I'd say both parties are probably agreed to put it on hold yes obviously Zytec may well, if they would be investing in ordering parts for games and worst case scenario ARA wins the court case in God knows how many times from now, but that could take quite a while. It could mean, although I doubt it, that ARA would have to cease production and they might end up being stuck with a bunch of parts that they can't use. So I can see Zytec not being very eager on that scenario. And, well, Dutch Pinball may have their own reasons why they say like, okay, let's focus on the court case and not worry about production at the moment. But at the same time, you also have your early achievers to make happy at some point. So I just hope that there will be a solution in which Dutch Pinball can start manufacturing games because as long as they don't manufacture games, I don't see the ending in a good way. No, I agree. I think, although I hate the whole idea of setting up all these different companies to deal with different parts of the business, in some ways you could see it would make sense for Dutch Pinball to have a manufacturing company and a marketing company or a, yeah, a marketing company which takes the deposits and the manufacturing company which actually produces the games and sells them back. Almost like, dare I say it, Pinball Brothers or Highway Pinball Sales and Highway Pinball, you know, it gives that degree of separation that if the company is sued, a company is sued by a previous manufacturer, then they can move that contract over to the other company, or the other company can own it from the outset, and they can carry on making the game elsewhere without the threat of being sued, which is exactly the situation they seem to have got themselves into. Dutch Pinball can be sued by ARA, and that puts a hold on everything, Whereas if there was Dutch Pinball had contracted RM, there was also a lot like Dutch Pinball Manufacturing who were working with Zytec to produce the games, that would be totally separate. And they could carry on with that in the background and get the games out to all those buyers and the early achievers and the distributors who ordered them, regardless of what had gone on in the early stages of their business. but I don't know Dutch law and I'm sure it's very complex and not quite anywhere near as simple as I'm making out but sometimes having that degree of separation between different parts of the business is a good idea and this might be one of those cases let's hope it's not too late to get in such a scenario and yes if they could separate the the manufacturing with Scitex from the manufacturing with ARA, then hopefully that will result in games going into production. Well, there is a reason it shouldn't do. Yeah. Actually, the only way I see Dutch Pinball being able to continue is actually by manufacturing games and starting to deliver them. and they might not deliver, once they get production going, they might start delivering games to a coin taker first. But I'm pretty sure that if they discuss that with their early achievers, that's probably something that everybody can live with as long as that increases their chances of getting a game instead of getting no game. I agree, but that degree of separation between the businesses is also vital in this case if there's a court case going on and that court case is going to suck up a lot of time, effort and more importantly money in paying for lawyers to defend the case. and you can understand why Zytec would look at that and go, there's a whole storm going on over there with ARA and Dutch. That's an unknown quantity. We don't know exactly how long that's going to go on, how much money it's going to take. We don't really want it to go ahead with our part of the business dealing with the same company while they're distracted doing that. So let's just step back, wait for all that to blow over, and if it takes too long, maybe we'll just call it quits and move on. Oh, then we've got a different problem. Because then we're back at zero. We are, potentially, yeah, which is another reason for, as I say, for keeping these things compartmentalized, I think is the phrase, or siloed, where if you're going to sue a company, you only sue their company that you were dealing with. You can't sue other companies, which might be associated with the main company, but who are doing other things. So if Dutch Pinball 2 was dealing with Zytec and Dutch Pinball was dealing with ARA, those two can sue each other and the other half can carry on and produce the Bowski game. If Dutch Pinball is listening, here's your free advice for Martin from Pinball News. Well, I have a lot more suggestions than that, but I'm sure they... If you want to see, please call Pimble Magazine. I'll be happy to act as a manager for Martin and Ian. Yes, I'm sure they've investigated every option, and I'm not telling them anything they don't really know and have looked into. Just a small guys. So some people think this is a dead horse by now. Personally, I think there are still options, and it could still become a success, but I think the time to act is now. Yes, I agree. It's a fun game. It's a great license. There's a lot there. There's a lot there that can be salvaged and it would be so tragic if it never actually came to fruition and fulfill the potential that the whole thing has because a lot of people put a lot of effort into that game and it shouldn't fail on the basis of just being manufactured and so much as it's basically there, ready to be made, they just need somebody to make it and sell it. And people are willing to sell it. People are very happy to sell it. But you need to have the games there and that's the seeking point. Yeah, okay. Well, moving along, since we have a Chinese connection, let's discuss briefly Homepin, who is Australia-based but have their own factory in China and not as close as you'd like them to be with Scitech because that's a two-and-a-half-hour flight, so that's quite the other end of the country, or, well, quite far away. But as we mentioned last month, they started the production process of Thunderwoods Ago. Yeah, exactly. And I think I had the scoop as well to announce that earlier last month, Homepin got a second factory in which they are now doing all their woodwork. They were doing that first in one building, but with all the sawdust and everything, you don't want that really around everything else you do in the production or manufacturing of games. So they waited as long as they could because apparently rental prices are ridiculous in China. But they basically needed the space, so they got a second space, which is only a few blocks away. I think maybe like a mile and a half from the other factory. And they're doing all their playfield cutting and cabinet cutting and all that. They're doing that over there. Okay, so they have a woodworking operation not too far away from their actual assembly operation. Yes. Okay. Well, it's probably time for me to actually admit as to where I am at this particular time because it's going to become relevant in this story. Are you in Australia? Well, I'm not, but it feels like I might as well be, given the time difference between where you are and where I am. Right. Between us, we have a nine-hour time difference from you in the Netherlands and me over here in Seattle. I should say that I just arrived in Seattle literally, oh god I don't know I was going to say what time it is now we're looking at the clock on my PC and it's back in UK time so even that doesn't work so let's say about five hours ago now yes I arrived here in Seattle for the Northwest Pinball and Arcade show which is a great show it is indeed well hopefully it's going to be great this year as well and so basically I just drove straight to the hotel went out for a shot of lunch, came back, set up my laptop and here we are doing this podcast right now. So I've got a great place for you to go to eat. Oh, please tell me. We've been there before. I think it's called The Ranch. Oh, wow. Okay, that sounds great. Tell me all about it. Hope you like music when you're dining. Well, music, but obviously not line dancing. I mean, you could draw the line somewhere, haven't you? fortunately that's in Tacoma so but yes the point being about me being in Seattle is that we are expecting to have a Thunderbirds A Go machine here on the Nitro pinball stand at the show which will be my first time seeing a Finnish game and playing it and a little later in the year shall I say, in August in the UK I know where you're going with this I'm going to the wonderful town of Daventry in the Midlands, which is where Mike from The Home Pin will be visiting and showing Thunderbirds a go and giving a talk about it as well at the UK Pinfest show at the Mercure Daventry Court Hotel in Daventry. How many times has that hotel changed names? Maybe it's one of those things about siloing different parts of the business that you don't want to get sued every time. But anyway. Is it the third name for the same hotel? Probably. As long as I know it. I agree. I agree. It's the same hotel, though, at the end of the day. And there's a whole new show, the whole new national UK pinball show called UK Pin Fest, which is run by Phil, who's run NERG, which is the Northeast Retro Gaming Show, over the past few years and basically taken over the UK show, which will also be home while I'm mentioning it for the UK Pinball Open. which I am working to organise with Peter Blakemore from Special When Lit. So we're still working on details on that. But anyway, Mike will be there. He will be bringing a Thunderbirds Are Go, and he will be talking about it in a seminar. But Thunderbirds Are Go will also be here in Seattle this weekend, and I will get a chance to play it here, hopefully. is Mike also going to be there? I don't think Mike is I don't think Mike is planning to be here I think Tommy is going to be doing the representation for Homepin I think actually Mike is caught up in Hong Kong right now because there is a IAPA show going on with I know Jack from Jersey Jack Pimble went there some people from Pimble Universe are present over there and probably some others as well so So that's a sort of conflicting event that might prevent Mike from attending that show. But okay, at least you get the chance to play the game, and I'm sure that you'll write your regular show report on it so people can visit pinballnews.com if they want to find out what you think of the game. Yes, I should be doing the same kind of thing I did for the Golden State show and do a sort of daily review from the setup and each day of the event. but it's worth also pointing out and to be fair to the other shows that are also taking place this weekend that there's the Rocky Mountain Pinball Showdown taking place in Denver and the Southern Fried Game Room Expo down in Georgia also taking place so it's a very busy weekend this weekend in the US for pinball shows not really the greatest thing although I don't know how many people would want to attend more than one of those. But the good news is that next year, the Northwest Pinball Show is moving back to its original date, which is the week before, which means that there won't be that same Slash. I don't know whether the Rocky Mountain and the Southern Pride will be the same weekend. They probably will. But at least the Northwest Pinball Show will be the weekend before 2019. Right. So that could be a two-weekend trip next year then. That's my plan, without getting into too many details, but we'll see how it goes. Right, okay. So as far as manufacturers go, I just mentioned Jack from Jersey Jack Pinball. There's not that much news actually on Jersey Jack Pinball at the moment, other than that they are still working on Pirates. and Dialed In is doing actually pretty well on the production line in the sense that they are selling a lot of those games which is a good thing because it a very good game And I glad that people finally discovered it Yes, I was due to do a sort of fireside chat with Jack two weeks ago at the Golden State show. Unfortunately, he had family commitments which prevented that happening. But Butcher Peel and I had a little chat on stage as well about the goings-on at Jersey Jack. And what can you tell us? Well, there's a lot to say. I don't know how much I can go into it. Obviously, it was a slightly different dynamic. I was really looking to ask Jack about the financial background to his company and how having investors in the company changes all that. And with the background to what happened at Highway Pinball in a couple of weeks earlier. So that was slightly different. I couldn't get into that with Butch. But we did get into the way that the company works, being split across multiple different areas and time zones with having the manufacturing facilities in Lakewood, the Illinois campus, having David Thiel doing sound in Seattle, and having JP doing the artwork and graphics in the Netherlands. So that was an interesting talk. Anyway, go to Pinball News. Speaking of which, David Thiel was a special guest at Pinball Universe last weekend. Martin Wiesdorf, the German Pimble Association brought him over and I think David mentioned in his hours and hours of talking because he was the only guest so somebody had to fill all seven hours David's up to it but he I think David mentioned that he's almost done with the music for Pirates and after that he's off to Deep Root where he's been hired and he will be there for three years so Pirates of the Caribbean will be David Thiel's last Jersey Jack pinball game for at least the next coming three years right so you're working for Deep Root exclusively apparently yes that obviously leaves a bit of a bit of a gap at JGP to find someone to write the music and create the effects for their titles. Right. So if you are a music producer and if you feel like you can do music... Hang on, that's you. You always wanted to do that. Here is an opening at Jersey Jack Pinball. It's becoming a bit of a crowded market or crowded business out there. I'm not sure there are enough people in the business to do that, are there? It's time to bring back Chris Drenner. I'm sure he's always willing to work on a Pat Lawler title anyway. Right. So who knows? Yeah. Apparently Pat's got a couple of games coming up, so let's see how that works out. Right. And speaking of, what I understood is that Pat is now also heading the Chicago department of Jersey Jack. That could be interesting, let's put it like that. Pat being sort of like managing Keith and Eric Meunier. So let's see how that works out as well. Yeah, that would be an interesting situation up there. Let's hope it all goes smoothly. I hope so. So talking of things going smoothly, tell us about the progress on Pinball Magazine number 5 the Wayne Neyens edition because obviously you have a deadline approaching really don't you with a certain birthday coming up yes I know I know I know and it's like the devil is playing with it I am working on the magazine I'd say I have finished about I'd say a third to 50% of the layout of the articles. However, whenever you're not needing this, basically I got a remix opportunity for a track that I've been looking to remix for like 15 years. And I was inspired. I got the okay. They sent me the parts and I was like, I got to do this. And I asked like, so when is this due? And they said, second week of June. I said, great, like I don't have enough on my plate already. So the good news is that remix is done. And that remix is being approved and they love it. And then they were like, can you do a dub version? so I still got to finish the dub version but that's basically taking out some parts of the remix that I did so that's good because this will be an official release my first release on an American label which is actually something I'm very happy about shoot me out hopefully by the end of June something like that so that got me at least subtracted for I'd say a week or so and then well you're not going to believe this but basically the building where I'm living in is being sold under very shady circumstances and there is all sort of people who are living here protesting and we're uniting and trying to stop the building being sold because the way this all is going down and the way we have been informed is completely against any regulations and all that kind of stuff so that's taking up a lot of time as well and it's not something that i look uh that i'm happy about of course um of course but it's not something i can ignore right now because if this still went goes on i might be facing a 30 percent rent increase and that's something i'm definitely not looking for yes but apart from you being homeless and also missing out on the opportunity to be a world famous pop star, where's Pinball Magazine number five? It's still a work in progress and I'm working on it right now. As soon as we get this podcast done, I'm back on Pinball Magazine number five, working on the podcast. Santiago Chufo edited a lot of images for me last week, so all that is set in place. It's just doing the layout and then it's off to the printer. And then, interestingly enough, I got this suggestion from Pimble Universe, who said like, well, it's great that you do these massive magazines with like 300 pages, a very deep cover story. How about doing a side magazine, which is more like a mini-zine that people can buy under 10 euros? because that would be easier to sell to them than a magazine that costs like 25. Huh. Right. And do they sell Pimble magazine at the moment? They do sell Pimble magazine, but apparently they run into a lot of people saying, what, 25 or whatever they ask for it, euro for a magazine. I can see why people think that's a lot for a magazine, although it's more like a book. I've heard that, yeah. but the idea was can I take a part of the cover story and do like an 80 page magazine so people can get that for a pinball magazine light something like that I'm not sure I'd have to talk to some more people about that but it could be something that I might be considering down the road but it's interesting so that's also something that's in the back of my mind but for this cover story it would be a pity to split it up over three issues or something like that because oh yeah the idea of Pimple Magazine was to be the one stop if you want to know something about a certain topic in this case Wayne Nye oh yeah it's the definitive story isn't it Yes. Okay, but are you going to get it out in time for his birthday? I'm really trying, and I hope so. It's July 29th. We're now at the beginning of June. I hope so. I almost feel guilty about continuing this podcast for much longer on the basis that it might lead to you not getting it out in time. Yeah. I was talking to Wayne, interestingly enough, earlier this week. I got a very nice I'm not sure whether it's a scoop but one of the great things that I would like to mention is Wayne had a sketchbook all the time that he was working at Gottlieb or at least when he was designing and that sketchbook is no longer in his possession but it's currently owned by Rob Berg I have asked Rob Berg would you be willing to scan some pages of that and see if there is I can use that to illustrate the cover story and Rob said well there's a note in the sketchbook that says that there should not be any publications I called Wayne I explained the situation and Wayne was like sure what do I care go ahead and see if there's anything you can use so I sent Rob a list of games I was hoping that would be in there because I have no idea what's in there and interestingly enough he came back to me with sketches for three games, one which includes the Ricochet Whitewood now that's a game that Gobblee never made well they made one or two but here's all the details and the sketches and that's I find that very very interesting because Wayne doesn't even remember making the game and finding the sketches in his sketchbook basically proved that he actually did design that game, although he thought he didn't. Well, I guess when you've designed as many games as he has, it's very difficult to keep track of all of them. Yeah, but it's funny to discover such facts like 64 years after today. Oh, yeah. Yeah. And I also discussed with him, because Wayne was like, you better hurry up. I'm almost 100 now. That's true, but it's not like you're going anywhere once you're 100. So I'd love to have it out there by the time of his birthday. And I'm doing my utter best, but if the building where you're living in is being sold to a shady partner, I've got to pay attention to that. And on the plus side, if it comes out after his 100th birthday, you'll be able to include some details of the celebrations that took place for his 100th birthday. And I know that the Pacific Pinball Museum in particular are planning to do things to celebrate that and going down to his place in Mountain, is it Mountain Home? Yes, Mountain Home, Arkansas. yeah and so that would be a nice inclusion if it ends up taking place you know publications afterwards yes it would be very nice to include that although I rather have the magazine I might see I might see if I can depending on how far I get I might see if I can maybe print up a single copy exclusively for Wayne while I'm still working on some side articles or whatever and ship that over so at least he knows what's coming. Something like that. Yeah, it'd be a nice presentation for him for his birthday. Okay, so that's the progress on magazine number five. What else have we got? Oh, there's a little bit about American Pinball having a French distributor. Do you know anything about that? Well, actually, I think they got two new distributors. Oh, yes, you're right. Mr. Pinball Australia is now also a distributor for American Pinball. So that's Wayne. yes and speaker bongs pinball something people paradise yeah which is owned by Michael very nice guy so congratulations to both Wayne and Michael for landing that distributorship and hopefully they'll sell a lot of games which is also of course in the interest of American pinball there's not much news on their supposed to be second title Oktoberfest I think there's could be that there was an update for Houdini I'm not even keeping track at that moment so so you think given the timing that it would be great for them to announce their Oktoberfest title in Pebble Expo which takes place in October Oh, one at a time. But you have to realize that Oktoberfest usually is held in September. Yes, well, it goes into October just. But yes. Yes, but I'm sure that may be the case for the original, but when it comes to American markets, Oktoberfest is at the time the Oktoberfest beers come out is in October, not in September. so that would kind of work but maybe I would be surprised if they had them in production at that time yeah well agreed but that's one of the risks with having a title like that isn't it yeah well maybe they can receive it to Christmas Fest yeah yeah make it seasonal Or maybe it could be sort of like, you know, Stern and Pim Wadig with Lethal Weapon 3, where they brought out a whole range of other titles, which, or, you know, one-off games, or bespoke or custom titles, which were all based around the same playfield layout, but just rethemed artwork. Not like NFL with 50 different translates. Well, that was Striker Extreme, of course, which was rethemed to the NFL ones, but yes. But yeah, I was thinking of things like Michael Jordan and air and spelling and things like that, which were custom games. I think Oktoberfest is probably going to be a beer and bratwurst game. That could probably work all year long. What's not to like about beer and bratwurst, I mean? Well, yes, Oktoberfest beers are available not just in October. They tend to expand out a bit, you know, like summer and winter ales and things like that. Here's another idea to name the game. If Oktoberfest is too seasonal and it's all about beer and bratwurst, how about you call it Sausage Fest? I think you're changing the theme radically in that case. It's just a thought. It's certainly a thought, yes. let's leave listeners to work what that would look like themselves ok so on that rather dubious note I think we've covered most of the events by the main manufacturers there is one topic we didn't address sorry for interrupting on a rather serious note you mentioned that former Pimple designer John Trudeau has been charged with new chargers. Yes. I mean, to be honest, I don't take any pleasure in reporting any of this. Okay, there we go. Yeah. All right. Let's not bring this down too much and just say if you want to find out the details, it's on the Pimple News front page. and I've been updating the report on his initial arrest seven times now. It's been updated, but there's now some new charges relating to a different set of events and, yeah, let's not get too bogged down in that. You know where to find the details if you want to. Right, okay. So, well, that was a great way to kill the mood. Yeah, on the bus side, a similar theme. On the Pinball News site, there's some good news about a bunch of machines are up for sale and potentially very good prices. If you're in the California area, the Pacific Pinball Museum are selling off some of their surplus duplicate titles. They've got over 1,300 machines, or around about 1,300 machines, I should say, of which they have around about 900 odd unique titles, which means they have a bunch of duplicates. So they are looking to raise funds to expand their operation and move the new... Well, I can't use your operation, but... Well, to move into larger premises with their fixed museum, because at the moment they only have around about 90 machines on permanent display in the Alameda location. They were looking at getting the Carnegie Library also in Alameda. Yeah, that's like a player without a hand. But that actually isn't even big enough in itself to display what they want to display, so they've abandoned that and are now looking at getting somewhere more realistic, more affordable, but larger, where they can show a much larger proportion of their machines. And to do that, they're looking to raise more funds by selling off around about 130 of their duplicate surplus machines, which will be taking place, I think it's this month, later this month. Yeah, I think around the 23rd, something like that. Right, yeah, that rings a bell. And I know pinball prices have gone a bit crazy of late, but looking at some of the prices of these machines, they seem quite reasonable for me. Okay, you're breaking up a bit. I'm sorry, as... Say that again. Oh, okay. I'm not sure exactly what the condition of any of the machines in the auction, not an auction, there's for sale. They all have fixed prices. If you go there and you're first to buy it, you buy the machines. but they're all graded according to their condition. Some, one or two, very few, I think one or two literally, are just either a body or a head, but the rest vary from poor to fair to reasonable to good to very good. And the prices to me at least seem pretty attractive if you're in the market for that kind of game. And they do go from large EM games, but there are also some solid state games there as well some alphanumerics as well so F14 Tomcat listed for $1400 that seems to be quite affordable yeah the cocktail games as well things like Night Moves or games like that which were literally for around $500 and in good condition so some good deals there to be had, I hope they actually go to people who actually want them and will include them in a collection and not as people who are going to resell them, try and make a quick buck on them. And all proceeds to the museum to support their operation and try and expand and get them into a bigger home. So it's all good. Okay. I guess this concludes this episode of the Pinball Magazine and Pinball News audio podcast for recapping the most important pinball industry events of May 2018. We'll be back early next month with a recap of June. Anything else you'd like to add? No, there's a lot going on. Obviously, I'm here in Seattle for a show. There are other shows going on around the country. There'll be a lot of events going on, a lot of announcements, a lot of excitement and some some excitement and some exciting events taking place and so June's going to be a really action-packed month to look back on in a few weeks' time and recap exactly what's been going on and I'm looking forward to it. So, well, I wish you a very pleasant Northwest Pinball and Arcade show. Thank you very much. I wish I could be there, but I got a magazine to finish. Yeah, well, you're doing good work over there, and between us, I'm sure we'll cover everything. Right. So, well, I'm glad you're there. Hopefully, they will be streaming their seminars again like they did in previous years. I'm certainly counting on it, because I'm not planning on recording them. So, hopefully, they will be. But I will be there to take pictures, report on them all, and I'm planning to be updating stuff live over the weekend. Okay, so that's a roundup for the recap of May, and we'll be back next month. Okay, I look forward to talking to you then. Okay, excellent. Thank you very much. Bye-bye.