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The Pinball Show Ep 17: It's Not About The Topper, It's About The Changing Landscape Of Pinball, But Are We Devolving?

The Pinball Show·podcast_episode·1h 34m·analyzed·Jun 8, 2020
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Analysis

claude-haiku-4-5-20251001 · $0.036

TL;DR

Stern's $600 Jurassic Park topper sparks DLC concerns; pricing analysis reveals unusual premium.

Summary

The Pinball Show hosts Zach Minney and Dennis Creasel discuss the controversial $599.99 Jurassic Park topper announcement from Stern Pinball, which enables a new game mode called Goatmania—marking the first time Stern has locked content behind a paid topper accessory. Dennis performs a detailed pricing analysis comparing 12 Stern toppers, finding the JP topper is $131 above average and $187 above median, with no animatronics to justify the premium. The hosts debate whether this represents a test of DLC monetization and margin optimization.

Key Claims

  • The Jurassic Park topper is the first Stern topper to enable a game mode that requires purchase of the topper

    high confidence · Dennis and Zach explicitly state this is unprecedented for Stern; Craig Bobby's news segment confirms the mode unlock feature

  • The Jurassic Park topper costs $599.99, which is $131 above the average price of 12 Stern toppers ($469) and $187 above the median ($413)

    high confidence · Dennis presents detailed pricing data: Aerosmith $400, Beatles $400, Black Knight $450, Deadpool $400, Game of Thrones $500, Ghostbusters $500, Guardians $400, Iron Maiden $400, Monsters $425, Star Wars LE $750; average excludes Star Wars LE

  • The Jurassic Park topper is the most expensive non-animatronic topper Stern has released

    high confidence · Dennis states: 'it is the most expensive topper that did not incorporate any sort of animatronics.' Comparison shows animatronic toppers (Black Knight $450, Deadpool $400 with rotating hand, Monsters $425 with cuckoo clock) cost less

  • The Goatmania mode is a progression-based, non-essential fun addition that does not dramatically impact competitive scoring

    high confidence · Zach explains: 'it would not bother me personally' if similar modes continued; Dennis notes 'This mode, as I saw it, I would not feel like I needed to own it'; the mode requires spelling Jurassic Park across multiple games with rollover progression

  • The community's anger centers on fear that this is a test run for ongoing paid DLC model, not primarily the topper's aesthetic quality

    high confidence · Dennis: 'I think that's where the anger mostly resides is this concern that this is a trial run by Stern to see if they can get away with charging people to have more game modes added into their game at a later date'; Zach agrees this is the core concern

  • Stern may be testing price elasticity or margin optimization by charging premium for toppers, similar to 'whale' monetization in mobile games

    medium confidence · Zach speculates: 'Maybe they're upping the price of the topper because of desirability' and later discusses 'whale' mechanics from mobile gaming where developers raise prices to test demand and capture high-spending customers

Notable Quotes

  • “I wouldn't be surprised if it's a test to a degree. I don't know if they went in with that clear of a vision in mind like that.”

    Zach Minney @ ~54:00 — Key acknowledgment that Stern may be experimenting with paid DLC/mode-lock monetization via toppers

  • “This is a $400 topper all day based on the topper's features and the prior pricing we've seen from Stern. There's no way what it does would ever have gone above $500.”

    Dennis Creasel @ ~48:00 — Direct evidence-based critique of JP topper pricing anomaly; establishes fair market price based on historical Stern data

  • “I think that's where the anger mostly resides is this concern that this is a trial run by Stern to see if they can get away with charging people to have more game modes added into their game at a later date.”

    Dennis Creasel @ ~35:00 — Identifies core community concern: DLC monetization precedent, not topper quality or price alone

  • “If people have a problem with it on the price, they have grounds for it. This is unusually high priced. It is.”

    Dennis Creasel / Zach Minney @ ~50:00 — Both hosts validate the pricing criticism as legitimate based on historical comparison data

  • “The topper, with its added gameplay modes and unlocks, continues to signal Stern's interest to explore and test DLC or pay-for-play options that will no doubt continue to be seen once their rumored internet connectivity features for games are finally realized.”

    Craig Bobby @ ~20:00 — News correspondent frames JP topper as potential gateway to broader DLC strategy tied to future internet connectivity

  • “So that's the problem with the topper from like a personal stance. I don't care. If people like it, buy it. I don't have a problem with it. Good analysis. If people have a problem with it on the price, they have grounds for it.”

    Dennis Creasel / Zach Minney @ ~50:30 — Balanced take: hosts acknowledge legitimate pricing complaint while remaining non-judgmental about buyers

Entities

Stern PinballcompanyJurassic Park (Stern)gameZach MinneypersonDennis CreaselpersonSpooky PinballcompanyRick and Morty (Spooky)gameBowen KerinspersonDeep Root Pinballcompany

Signals

  • ?

    business_signal: Deep Root Pinball ramping production with multi-department hiring (creative, engineering, supply chain); indicates imminent reveal and production acceleration

    high · Chris Chandler: 'positions opened up within just the past few days... eager to get their production line set in anticipation of their upcoming reveal'

  • ?

    community_signal: Chicago Gaming Company conducting community voting poll on remake selection; Indiana Jones leading, Funhaus second, Radical minimal support

    high · Matt Morrison: 'don't forget to vote on the CGC remake poll... Indiana Jones, the Pinball Adventures, leading the pack. Second place is Funhaus... Radical, with one vote'

  • ~

    sentiment_shift: Widespread community anger at JP topper announcement; frustration articulated on Pinside, Facebook, YouTube; Zach Minney specifically targeted for promotion due to retail distribution role

    high · Zach: 'I was grilled pretty heavily on social media, on Pinside, on Facebook, on YouTube. I took my lashings'; Dennis: 'tone, the feel of the community has been a lot of anger... just anger'

  • $

    market_signal: Stern testing DLC monetization model through paid game mode locks, potentially precursor to broader internet-connected DLC strategy

    high · Dennis: 'trial run by Stern'; Craig Bobby: 'signal Stern's interest to explore... DLC or pay-for-play options... internet connectivity features'; community anger centers on precedent

  • ?

    licensing_signal: Potential licensing explanation for higher topper price dismissed; Beatles (more expensive license) was $400; Star Wars LE was $750 but limited run with animatronics

Transcript

groq_whisper · $0.283

0:00
The Pinball Network is online. Launching The Pinball Show. Pinball is a game of skill. For some, it's a passion and a lifestyle.
0:20
It's time for The Pinball Show. It's pinball with personality. toppers and goats and shade oh my welcome back to the pinball show episode 17 we are your hosts zach minnie and dennis creasel and we're ready to talk some pinball with you this week how's it going dennis it's going pretty good i've seen you've had a lot of a lot of attention lately a lot of a lot of topper talk yeah shucks what can i say dennis people love me people don't People don't love me. I'm too contrarian. That reminds me of a little bird, a little canary.
1:00
Yeah, I don't think the word was used was contrarian, but that was what was meant. So I thought about trying to do this episode where I just agreed with you on everything, but that would be dishonest. Man, that would feel too good. Yeah, it would soothe you. I'd be like a bomb, a bag bomb. I actually would throw me off and be like, no, toppers are shit. Why would we spend so much money on toppers? How dare you, Dennis? Chill.
1:26
Yeah, it would be interesting if we just took the opposite positions on everything just to see. I don't know. I think I would still win.
1:35
Sadly, with the public opinion of me, yes, I think you would as well. But my words are to be used for good. That's the point. That's my purpose. What have you been up to this last week? Oh, I streamed. I did that. I did see that. It streamed the prior weekend, but I finally streamed again on Wednesday, which is when I used to try and do it. So we did a little bit of the Super Orbit. A lot of people came in and kept asking, where are the Orbits? So I had to stop the stream. Why is that? What the hell? Super Orbit. Where does he get that name? Well, it's a remake of Orbit, and they upped the score value. So now it's Super Orbit. There you go. That's the story. Every time I hear super orbit, I picture Orbital Albert just standing on his farmland with his fists on his waist with a cape that says, Super Orby!

  • Rick and Morty received a major code update with Meseeks Mania multiball, Get Schwifty adventure, Shagermotor support, four new dimensions, two new mortis, and new Justin Roiland callouts

    high confidence · Dr. John's Spooky news segment confirms update streamed by Bowen Kerins on BKeran's Twitch account

  • Deep Root Pinball is actively hiring across creative, engineering, and supply chain roles in preparation for production ramp-up

    high confidence · Chris Chandler reports: 'Several postings have shown up on the Deep Root tech page for various positions... All of these positions were opened up within just the past few days and hint that Deep Root is eager to get their production line set in anticipation of their upcoming reveal'

  • American Pinball's Hot Wheels is nearing shipment with a livestream scheduled, and Jack Danger visited the facility for hands-on testing

    high confidence · Kaz's American Pinball update: 'Jack Danger visited American Pinball and had some hands-on game time. There looks to be a stream upcoming very soon, possibly early this week'

    • American Pinball
    company
    Hot Wheels (American Pinball)game
    Jack Dangerperson
    Chicago Gaming Companycompany
    Christopher Franchiperson
    Craig Bobbyperson
    Dr. Johnperson
    Chris Chandlerperson
    Kazperson
    Matt Morrisonperson
    Justin Roilandperson

    medium · Zach raises licensing as possible explanation; Dennis counters with Beatles precedent; both conclude license cost unlikely

  • $

    market_signal: Potential margin optimization or whale monetization testing; Stern may be experimenting with elasticity to increase topper profitability given production constraints

    medium · Zach speculates: 'margins of these toppers is just not as high as it needs to be... increase margin'; comparison to mobile game 'whale' strategies where small % of users spend disproportionately

  • ?

    personnel_signal: Christopher Franchi continuing work at Chicago Gaming Company on two new games and remake refinement; artist involvement in multiple projects

    high · Matt Morrison: 'Christopher Franchi was on Poor Man's Pinball Podcast... working on two new games... touching up a few things on the next remake'

  • $

    market_signal: Jurassic Park topper at $599.99 is $131 above 12-topper average and $187 above median; highest non-animatronic topper price; $200 premium attributed to game mode unlock

    high · Dennis's detailed analysis showing average $469, median $413; JP $599.99; only Star Wars LE $750 costs more

  • ?

    product_strategy: American Pinball Hot Wheels production resuming with shipment imminent and livestream scheduled; prior delays resolved

    high · Kaz: 'production resumes... finally see the game in action... stream upcoming very soon, possibly early this week'

  • ?

    product_strategy: Goatmania mode as progression-tracking, non-essential game addition; designed to avoid pay-to-win perception (not high-scoring mode)

    high · Zach: 'it's not a special enough mode to worry about'; 'it's not going to make a big difference to my gameplay'; mode rolls over across games; tracks on topper display

  • ?

    product_concern: Rick and Morty code update demonstrates Spooky's ongoing production capability with substantial multiball, adventure, and callout additions

    high · Dr. John: Meseeks Mania multiball, Get Schwifty adventure, Shagermotor support, four new dimensions, two new mortis, new Justin Roiland callouts, bug fixes

    • 2:23
    It's always a picture. And in the background, you've got a cute little goat with his hairy chin. I want to tickle that goat's chin. Goats don't have anything to do with super orbit. And if any week was goat week, this is the week, my friends. Oh, the sad irony of that. When I found that out, I was like, oh my. We did get a little feedback on our Pinside thread about me and my excitement for different things on these episodes. So we're going to try to adjust that to a certain degree. Really? You know, I think I once upon a time told you people reached out that the screaming goat was too loud. Okay. All right. That's purposeful. But I was being told that I was purposefully yelling into these wonderful and sweet, sensual ears of our listeners in efforts to anger them. And I'm not doing that. You just want to cause a car wreck? No, I don't want to cause a car wreck. I want to cause a nice, decent drive to work or to the Home Depot or to the Red Lobster. That's what we're here for. We're here for Red Lobster. Yeah, with those cheesy biscuits. Come on, Den Den, you love those cheesy biscuits. Yeah, I love how you named a seafood restaurant and then the one thing you name is bread. Well, let's be real. Is it a seafood restaurant? Come on. Yeah. The little lobsters are in the tank, helpless and suffering. I know. I always freak my kids out because they're like, oh, look at those, Daddy. I'm like, that's what we're going to eat, children. We're going to rip open their guts and eat their insides. Actually, I lift my kids upside down and I dunk them in there. Going to get your nose. I don't like lobster. I feel it doesn't taste like anything. Really? Yeah, I can't taste it. If I dip it in butter, it tastes like butter. Crab is one of my favorites, but not lobster. You know what? I will take a snow crab leg over a lobster. I'm not going to lie. Oh, I love snow crab. So sweet. I do, too. Don't give me those king crabs, though. I want to be able to open them up with my hands. I don't want to use a Swiss Army knife to open up my fucking food. I don't like the king crabs. A little too much. A little much there. I maybe had king crab once. Snows are the favorite one, especially having legs. Yeah, you do the pop, pop, shift, pull out. All of you listeners that like crab legs know that method. And then the dip, the suck, and the scrape. Boom. That's how you eat crab legs from an audio perspective. So let's get into some news. I'm tired of the drama. I just want to talk about the fun game of pinball. We're going to kick it over to our correspondents. Let's see if they can drum us up any discussion points. Okay. It's time for TPN Industry News.
    5:18
    Hello, and welcome to this week's Spooky Hackers Industry Talk Update with Dr. John on the Pinball Show. Big news out of Spooky, a new code for Rick and Morty. This was streamed by Bowen with the help from his son Aaron last week on his BKeran's Twitch account. Tune in to have a look at that. But the update is massive with added Meseeks Mania multiball, a Get Schwifty adventure, which everyone will look forward to, I'm sure, support for the Shagermotor, four new dimensions, two new mortis and an adventure select interface for a card when you reach number 10. There's tons of new callouts by Justin Roiland, some bug fixes, but also a heap of extra things to do in the game. Really looking forward to receiving my game. In the meantime, I'll be watching a few streams, Spooky is back in action as we said last week and tuning out the games as quick as they can. That's it for this week, catch you all next week Matt Morrison here with your Chicago Gaming Company News update for the week Christopher Franchi was on Poor Man's Pinball Podcast episode 56 And gave us a glimpse into the future At CGC He's currently working on two new games And touching up a few things on the next remake One can only speculate Maybe some more Franchi Topper love On the rumored Cactus Canyon remake Will we see some Franchi art On the Ben Heck game or maybe a Franchi-Norman combo. Only time will tell, but CGC's definitely gearing up for the next few releases. And don't forget to vote on the CGC remake poll. That's on pinside.com, forum, the Pinball Network thread. It's on the first page. And right now, Indiana Jones, the Pinball Adventures, leading the pack. Second place is Funhaus. Currently, Circus Voltaire and Whitewater have no votes. And Zach Minney's favorite, Radical, with one vote. I wonder who that was. All right, that'll do it for CGC this week. I'm Matt Morrison.
    7:46
    Root is back in action and ramping up to start production. Several postings have shown up on the Deep Root tech page for various positions. These range from more artistic jobs like creative producer through to engineering and even purchasing related roles like senior buyer and supply chain specialist. All of these positions were opened up within just the past few days and hint that Deep Root is eager to get their production line set in anticipation of their upcoming reveal. With your Deep Root update, this is Chris Chandler. Hey, this is Kaz with an American Pinball update. As production resumes on Hot Wheels, everyone is excited to finally see the game in action and see a live stream. Jack Danger visited American Pinball and had some hands-on game time. There looks to be a stream upcoming very soon, possibly early this week. So check out American Pinball's Facebook page for more info on the Twitch stream. For American Pinball, this is Brian Kosner.
    8:44
    Who wants a topper? Toppers? What toppers? Hey everyone, Craig here again, the pinball show's Stern News correspondent. Well, hot on the heels of the exciting TMNT release last week, Stern continued to surprise their fan base and collectors this week by officially announcing their new and highly rumored Jurassic Park topper. Yes, first seen back in mid-April during a Stern fan photoshoot, it was speculated the topper might have some articulation. but sadly, that is now in fact wishful thinking. The topper borrows similar dinosaur artwork seen on the cabinet and playfield with the familiar Jurassic Park T-Rex logo in the center and lit by LED lights. The topper clawed its way onto Stern's website with a Megalodon price tag of $599.99 US, creating quite the uproar from Stern's always vocal fanbase.
    9:38
    Despite the added game mode the topper unlocks once installed, many critics argue better value and artistry on recent toppers for titles like The Black Knight, Sword of Rage, or even the hard-to-find but beautiful Beatles toppers that also recently came back into stock. Others argue the topper, with its added gameplay modes and unlocks, continues to signal Stern's interest to explore and test DLC or pay-for-play options that will no doubt continue to be seen once their rumored internet connectivity features for games are finally realized. Don't care about the $600 price tag or DLC? Well, you're not alone as the topper's first run instantly sold out within hours of being announced. $600 too rich for your blood? Well, what about a new Stranger Things shooter knob in the shape of a 20-sided D&D die complete with LED lights for what seems like a very reasonable $139.99? The market is prepared to pay if Stern continues to make them. In the words of the Kevin Cosner baseball classic, Feel the Dreams, build it and they will come. For the Pinball Show, I'm Craig Bobby. Catch you on the flip side.
    11:08
    you a hermit crab man okay i'm trying to think what i would be i like the beauty of a of a mantis shrimp have you seen those a chameleon mantis shrimp i think so yeah beautiful they're knuckle busters though they can they can bust through an aquarium glass because they have yeah yeah i was thinking those are the ones that punch right yes fast and they kill they will kill nearly anything in their path kids small birds dogs yeah maybe that's me i'm a mantis shrimp i look beautiful i sound great but i have the ability to yeah that's what a great analogy maybe you are you're a mantis shrimp in a home aquarium where you've got your hey look at me style and then and the aquarium is pinball but then on occasion you're just like fuck it all up that's right well Let's get into some news. We know that Craig Bobby is reporting on Stern. He's talking about some new accessories that have been announced by Stern Pinball. And that really, for better or worse, is what everyone is talking about in pinball right now in the hobby. Well, that was the latest news of the week, yeah. Stern Pinball announces their Jurassic Park topper accessory for their award-winning game Jurassic Park. We did see a picture released, what was that, Wednesday, I believe? an official picture released by Stern. And then I was able to pull together some video for individuals interested in the product for Friday on the Flippin' Out YouTube channel. So you can check that out. But we did an unboxing. I don't think anybody's ever done an unboxing of a pinball accessory. So you are actually incorrect about that. Oh, what did they do? But they're not overly common that I've seen, at least not recently. In the course of preparing for this segment, I had to do research on Stern manufacturer toppers, and I did find another instance where someone actually showed an unboxing and installation of a topper. Oh, very cool. Very cool. You'll have to send me that privately. I'll have to find which one it was. I'm trying to remember. It might have been the Ghostbusters topper. Oh, that was a good one. What's the skinny on this? Why are people talking about this particular accessory so much? It's not lack of content because we've got Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles that has launched. We have an upcoming JJP reveal, hopefully anytime from now till Christmas. We have Hot Wheels getting ready to ship out. Why is everybody talking about this topper? I mean, even though you could argue that there's not a lack of content, there is that general principle, though, in pinball where it seems like once there's a new thing, you might get a week's worth of really intensive conversation, and then there are a number of other people that want to talk about something different at that stage. So there's a little bit of that, but I do think that most of this is driven by what you'd probably anticipate. Part of it is the price of the topper, but I think most of it is the fact that, to my knowledge, this is the first time where a game mode is enabled only by having this topper. Oh, so there's the controversy. Price and what is included. Now, many are referring to this move by Stern Pinball as the first glimpse into truly DLC or disc – is that disc-locked content? Is that what the acronym – It's downloadable content, although sometimes it actually had come out on discs and was locked. But the term DLC – the letters DLC do actually stand for downloadable content. People are using the term in a very catch-all way. I mean, generally, DLC is a very broad category. But in this instance, what they mean is paid DLC. Yes. And we know one thing. If it bleeds, it leads. So that's why it's topping off our show here today. Oh, topping off our show. We've got a lot of puns here in this segment, I think. So, yeah, they announced it. It was very akin, aesthetics-wise, very akin to some of the more basic toppers where it doesn't have a motor function. You don't have the Black Knight's head rotating. You don't have a crow coming out of a cuckoo clock like you do on the Munsters. It's very akin to the Beatles topper, Deadpool topper, all of which people really like. Yeah, it's what I call the flat plastic topper, where they take flat plastics and sort of layer them. Layered plastics topper. We know that people like those, but they were really vocal about this one. We also know, I think another part of this storm is that for the award-winning Jurassic Park, people wanted the follow-up to Black Knight Sword of Ragtopper to be this interactive dinosaurs roaring at you in three dimensions. Or they wanted a battle with the dinosaur. They wanted movement. Yeah, I admit I wanted a moving raptor head that when you drained would say, Alan.
    16:11
    That's really smart. I would have bought that. Because they had rights to the stuff from the first three movies. I don't think anyone would be too upset for using the – and they could get someone else to dub the Alan when the raptor in the dream sequence speaks. Yeah, they could figure that out. So people want to hear our takes, Dennis. They've been waiting. Yeah, right now they're in their car. They've got their fingernails like drilled into their steering wheel. They're sitting at home tearing up their Lazy Boy recliner armchairs. They're actually picking the skin as they're sitting by the computer listening. just picking and waiting for us to respond. And I think part of it is they want us to respond because I was grilled pretty heavily on social media, on Pinside, on Facebook, on YouTube. I took my lashings for presenting this topper, for advertising the topper. Well, you do sell them, so that's probably why, I mean, most other podcasters probably didn't get hit. I had people ask me some questions or I saw the general discussions about people who either felt this was inappropriate or were supporters of the concept. But since you actually move the product, that's probably why you hear so much of it. It's not that you're doing TPS. It's that you're doing flipping out pinball. And people know I like toppers. That's true as well. Pre-distribution and current distribution, I've always loved toppers. But in general, the tone, the feel of the community has been a lot of anger.
    17:36
    Not frustration, anger, just anger. Do you agree with that anger? I understand where it comes from. But in regards to the – there's a lot of, I feel, fear that while we had differences, and we're talking Stern specifically here. Well, we've had differences in the past regarding – well, in the present regarding like pro and pro features versus premium and LE. The enabling of a new game mode that requires you to invest hundreds of – I mean for a pro purchaser, this is over 10% of the price of the game. That's a good point. And I think that is what – it's not that Jurassic Park's topper is a bad-looking topper. They're angry at that too. It's a flat plastic topper because those are very, very common from Stern. And in some ways, I don't even think it's the price. I think it's that it's topper pricing applied to being able to unlock some sort of special mode. There are two aspects here. There's one that's the price aspect, and then there's one about the DLC, the paid DLC. And I think that's where the anger mostly resides is this concern that this is a trial run by Stern to see if they can get away with charging people to have more game modes added into their game at a later date. Okay. What do you believe? Do you think that they were trying to do that? They're trying to, using your words, quote, get away with something? I wouldn't be surprised if it's a test to a degree. I don't know if they went in with that clear of a vision in mind like that. And looking at the mode, I'm not overly – other than like a completionist who feels like they need to have everything for their game. This mode, as I saw it, I would not feel like I needed to own it. It's not a special enough mode to worry about if the money is a problem for you. I think that's fair. I think they would have got even more backlash if it was a fully featured mode that you're missing out on. Whereas this is more a fun nod to the hobbyist, a fun nod to those who are really into Jurassic Park in a frenzy-like, switch-hit, funny goat sort of way. Right. But if it hadn't been – like if it wasn't a progression mode, which is designed to happen across multiple games, but instead with something – and again, I don't even really fully understand the scoring on it where it's like, okay, well, do I need to have this? Am I playing?
    20:06
    Is it going to make a big difference to my gameplay? Like is this mode where you get all the points? No, it is not. How does it integrate with – but that's where some people might start to wonder in the future. like will there be dlc where it's like well yeah you don't have to buy it you don't have to have this new mode but if we're all competing on universal jurassic park leaderboards you need the mode in order to set the highest scores because it's such a lopsided scoring mode you see where where one's mind could go with it absolutely it's a good and i think they were smart enough to know that so they put it as a fun additional little add-on i do like that the that it is a fun, quirky little mode that you don't have to have, but it's a fun little tribute to the theme of Jurassic Park. Now, I also like the fact that they have a champion. You can be the Goatmania, spoiler alert, that's what the mode is called, Goatmania. You can be the champion of that, and that can rest into the display on the game. So Goatmania is the mode that is enabled by spelling out the letters of Jurassic Park. It has a rollover feature, so if one game you don't reach it by collecting dinosaurs for each letter, then it rolls over, and at some point, someone will get it. So overall, at least if they were to continue to add game modes like this into toppers, it would not bother me personally. And again, for those that don't know, I am not a topper person. I have never gone and bought a topper because I think that they're not worth the money. Now, I do want to talk a little bit about the money though because that actually fears about DLC and that's going to be whatever it is. Adding DLC to a physical topper isn't my big concern. I would be concerned if we start seeing paid DLC just in general because I don't like that path. To me, it doesn't make a lot of sense because it causes some issues with operators. But the price of the topper itself I do think is worth pointing out. And that's where I decided yesterday I was going to do a little bit of research because I knew we were going to talk about this. Uh-oh. No, you love it. No numbers don't lie. You love the numbers. Can I lead you into this analysis? Sure, do what you want. Ladies and gentlemen, let's open up a new segment. We're going to call the Pinball Show Presents Pinball Topper Tricks. Take it away, Dennis.
    22:38
    Well, I didn't trend them because I didn't look at... I did not analyze what things go for once they're out of stock. We've got to be consistent. It's just a name. Go. No. I don't like them. Okay. I'm going to run through a few toppers. These are all Stern manufacturer toppers, so they're not third party. Okay. They're all Spike System. I might have missed a few. I didn't mean to leave anything out, but I went to the Stern site to see which ones they still list for sale. And then I checked with you. I checked with CoinTaker, and then I tried to fill out the list as best I could. You checked with CoinTaker? What the hell did I answer that CoinTaker could? Well, you on your flipping out pinball site only have the R2-D2 topper. Beep, boop, beep, beep. Yes, beep, boop, boop, boop. Indeed. You're talking all this. This is like pinball porn to me, so I'm going to try not to get aroused. Think baseball. Just so folks know I rounded the nearest dollar and I didn include shipping Okay So Jurassic Park I think most people at this point because it new and out are aware It a topper It the flat plastic style It got integrated lights It enables a new game mode, which it's the only topper I'm aware of that does that. And it tracks progression for that mode in the lighting scheme on the topper. Sound like an accurate description? That's accurate, yes. Okay. And the rest of these are going to be in an alphabetic order. So Aerosmith. It's a $400 topper. topper it was flat plastic and it incorporated color changing lights beautiful topper batman 66 not the sle topper but the one that worked for all three models 400 it was flat plastic and it lights up i don't think it was multi-layered that or aerosmith i do not believe we're multi-layered or stacked plastics just for the record it's the same style of their their cut i don't want to call them 2d because they do have a thickness to them but it's all of these they're not molded listener Nobody knows what you're talking about. And I love this so far. Keep going. Okay. All right. So, Batman 66, $400. It's also a flat plastic design. Lights up. The Beatles, $400 topper. It's also flat plastic. Lights that, you know, flash and sequence. Such an unassuming yet beautiful and highly desirable topper. Love that one. And let me say that when I saw your, I did watch your video on the Jurassic Park topper. I thought it looked good. I thought it was very attractive when it was lit up. It's a really nice topper, yeah. Black Knight Sword of Rage. That's a 450 topper. It's got an animatronic head.
    25:02
    That's the noteworthy thing. It lights up, of course, as well. And a feather. I forgot about the feather.
    25:10
    You have to understand, this was very annoying. I spent like an hour on this, Zach, because I had to make myself watch a video of all these toppers so I knew what they did. And I really don't care. I don't care about toppers. I care about you. okay Deadpool $400 topper flat plastic design it does have an animatronic thumb or hand that actually rotates and you know it's got lights that flash too it's a really nice topper as well yeah Game of Thrones that was a $500 topper animatronic dragon and it also did mode tracking on the topper it tracked the houses you end up it did so it gives you information as did Beatles Beazles gives you progression information on there. I did not note that, so thank you for that. A lot of these sterns do. They're hooked into the system so that they can both interact and share information. I just wish Khaleesi was on top of that castle, if you know what I mean, Den Den.
    26:08
    Okay, yes, I do. Mother of Dragons. She is. She's your mama. Oh, I wish she was. Ghostbusters. That was a $500 topper. Ken Cromwell loves that one. It's a molded light bar that was the siren stuff for Ecto-1.
    26:26
    Guardians of the Galaxy, $400 topper, flat plastics, light flashing, but it also had color-changing lights and effects as well, which is not all that common in these toppers. And it had some multi-layering there. Yeah, yeah, it did the multi-layering. Iron Maiden, $400 topper. It had the flat plastics, but it did also have the sculpted cockpit and wings. There were two models, yes. And this is the one I looked at. And it's Lights Flash, the one with – I looked at the molded one, the sculpted one. Monsters, $425 topper. That was the flat plastics on the sides, but it had a sculpted and animatronic cuckoo clock with which the clock spun and the cuckoo bird also popped out. So we're seeing an increase in price there, I guess. And then finally, the last one I looked at, Star Wars topper was $750. It was limited. It's an LE. It was limited to 500 as a run, and it's the animatronic sculpted R2-D2. Okay? So that's 12 toppers all by Stern with an average price of $469 and a median price of $413. So Jurassic Park is $131 more than the average. It's $187 above the median. Only the LE topper for the Star Wars pin is a higher price. And by far, it is the most expensive topper that did not incorporate any sort of animatronics. So that's the problem with the pricing. Why is it so much higher? This is a 400 topper all day based on the topper's features and the prior pricing we've seen from Stern. There's no way what it does would ever have gone above 500 looking at these – based off the past amounts. So the argument that the topper tells me, Zach, is that it's got a $200 mode, but I don't think the mode is $200 worth of value. So that's my problem with the topper from like a personal stance. I don't care. If people like it, buy it. I don't have a problem with it. Good analysis. If people have a problem with it on the price, they have grounds for it. This is unusually high priced. It is. I think it's a very valid argument. I appreciate you taking the time for the listeners, Dennis, to read. Well, that's what I do for the listeners on the pinball shows. Wow. I was waiting for that polynomial analysis on that thing. No need for polynomial analysis. We weren't doing time trends. I stuck with the spike system, and none of these toppers are third-party. They're all Stern-built. That is true. Now, if we go back a step even further, we do have The Walking Dead, which was a three-dimensional box with sculpted heads in it. I believe that was only $400, to be fair. That was on the SAM system, though. Right. I did think about looking that one up because I had no idea how much it was. Obviously, it commands a lot more now because they don't make it anymore. But I decided, no, let's just stick with the quote-unquote modern era for convenience. Your numbers are correct. I can even throw in one of the most beloved toppers in there, Kiss Topper, which is integrated with a bunch of lights, just a bunch of lights that mimic a concert. A blinded by the light is bad. this topper will literally blind you. I mean, it's bright. And that was $400. So, yeah, I agree with the analysis that the price has increased. This is an increase greater than inflation. It's not like, I mean, some of these toppers were from last year. So why the $200 spike? Why do you think that might be? I mean, if we're thinking about it, do you think, I think some arguments could be made. I don't know if I believe any of these. I'm just pitching them here, Dennis. Maybe licensing. Jurassic Park is a huge license. You're going to say, well, so is Beatles and Star Wars. Yeah, yeah. Beatles, they bragged about it. Kamikau did. Most expensive license ever done in pinball. So that ain't it. Maybe. Maybe that's not it. We don't know. Well, I'm assuming he was honest. Maybe they're upping the price of the topper because of desirability. If it is an award-winning game, Stern might say, hey, we need to up the price because these are going to be purchased more so than a Beatles topper. Iron Maiden was an award-winning game, and it was a $400 topper. Eh, but it's still Iron Maiden. It's seen as one of the greatest Sterns of all time. Maybe another option here could be maybe the production and margins. It sounds crazy, but the margins of these toppers is just not as high as it needs to be for Stern to focus on it as much. thus what they are doing going forward are saying, look, we don't make as much. People are taking the time to build these things that are in factory. Those same workers could be building machines that are back ordered that people need to get a hold of. So it's going to have to make a little more sense here. I wouldn't be surprised if the desire was just to increase margin. Now, whether they needed to, or they just wanted to see, like, is this an experiment to see just how much people, like in the in the mobile phone industry on phone games these are and the free games where you buy content like you buy resources and stuff there are people that spend a very small percentage of people but the games get a few of these people that spend a lot of money they're called whales yeah that's what they were that's what the developers refer to those type of people and if you can land whales you can have a very successful game so there are people that go and they play these mobile games and they will spend thousands of real dollars buying these virtual currencies to advance themselves in the game because the game was addictive to them. Thus, you've landed whales and whales make you a lot of money for very little work. So I don't know if Jurassic Park is experimenting, like if Stern is experimenting with Jurassic Park and saying, okay, the toppers have been, we haven't been able to keep up with demand at the $400 and $500 price point. Let's try $600 and see if that slows it down or are we still selling out everything that we make? That's a good point. As a company, why not try to make as much as you can? I get that. But you don't want to piss off your customer base either.
    32:30
    With the mode being included, another argument, the last one I can think of is, well, it's $600 because there's an extra mode in it. So there's your DLC $200. That is an argument that one could make. And that's where I think they have rationalized the, I'm going to call it a $200 price increase because feature-wise, This is on par with their $400 toppers. I think I'm being fair with that. The only instance I had in this list of a non-animatronic topper that was over $400 was the Ghostbusters one, which was molded versus being the flat plastic style. So given that – And it could be a hybrid of them. Maybe they wanted to make more margin. They were like, let's increase it 100. But we do have an extra mode. That's an additional 100. So we don't know for sure. Now, we can say definitively that coding that mode, that doesn't happen in an hour, right? Oh, no, no. But no one else is going to know anything about it. The consumer is not going to know anything about the margins.
    33:34
    We're speculating ourselves. That's what we're here for. That's their guess. I think their guess is here's a $400 topper, and we think, because they've never done it before. They don't know. And we think that people will pay $200 more for a game mode. And that's the experiment. How much time do you think it takes to code something like that? The mode didn't look overly advanced animation-wise, so I think most of the time was spent actually programming the scoring.
    34:01
    The sounds, the scoring, the high scores, the coding into actually starting whenever the Jurassic Park letters on a physical device are gone through, rolling over from game to game. That's just a series of Boolean statements. I mean, I'm going to guess somewhere, if it's just one program or somewhere between a week and a month. But I don't know how long. Let's say a week. Let's say you put, and Dwight Selby is going to kill me. I think it's somewhere between 40 and 160 hours. We're not even close. But let's say 40 hours. How much are these people making? The point I'm making is it costs money. It costs time. Maybe, just maybe, if they think they're going to sell 100 toppers, 1,000 toppers, Maybe a week or a month, as you said, worth of work divided by all of that. Maybe it comes up to being a little extra money for a topper. I don't know. But why do it? Why not just make the topper not add the mode, sell it for $400? If you're selling out all the toppers anyway.
    35:04
    Maybe they want to continue to innovate. Projection mapping on a game. You know, including not only a topper that people love, but a topper that gives you something else. Not only are we giving you the cherry on top of your Sunday pinball machine here, but we're also giving you something that works within the layers of the ice cream underneath.
    35:29
    Why are people mad? This is all fun stuff. It's expensive, and they feel like they're having to buy a game mode. I think it's really obvious. I get it. All right. So, as you said before, Dennis, it is a good-looking topper. When the picture first came out, I thought, okay, basic topper. I thought the same damn thing for Beatles, and then I saw it in person at Jason Fowler's house, and I thought, holy shit, like, that thing is beautiful. I've got to get me one of those. Same thing here. I don't care if this thing was $600. You guys are going to hate me. I don't care if this thing was $800. If this thing was $1,000, I've got a Jurassic Park Ellie. I am a hobbyist and I love pinball toppers. I would have purchased it. That's because you're a whale.
    36:18
    It's a confused whale. I wasn't sure what you were doing there. I don't know if it's my whale status. But I just, I like toppers. So I'm the wrong person to ask. Am I a shill? I don't know. I'm selling the products that I'm authorized to sell. This is a particular product that I think is awesome. So yes, I'm excited about selling it. At the end of the day, it's $600. Does it look great? Out of the box, it looks like a regular old topper. You plug this thing in and, listener, make sure whenever you receive your Jurassic Park topper that your code is updated to at least version 1.01. Not that I was the person who had version 1.0 and hadn't updated my game, hooked it up, worked my way all the way through the Jurassic Park letters only to find out that, oh my God, this thing isn't coded, you son of a bitch. Nope, but I updated the code. Version 1.01 is what makes all of these lighting effects happen. It looks good on. I think that video that I was able to produce did a 180 on people's beliefs about, this is just a shitty looking topper. People were like, this is too expensive, but it does feel good. I turned into Adam Sandler again. Sorry. Yeah, I know. That was a pretty good impression. So sorry for your topper. The topper looks fine. I don't really dislike any of the Stern Nate toppers visually. And, listener, you guys know how much I value and love toppers. I'm here to tell you that visually, with the lighting effects, this actually, I'm going give this a little bit of a nod over even beetles that i thought was great so there's no arguing that the damn thing looks good all right we're done with that so is it expensive sure it's so relative how do people argue whether something's expensive or not right well but relative to other toppers it is so i mean what more do you want don't forget there are third-party toppers competing with this and they are much cheaper. On what basis, though? On what basis? Because, look, I go and I eat a steak in a nice restaurant, right? I can compare that steak to an Applebee's steak. Oh, there's still a steak? Okay. Do I need to spend that much money on a steak? No. Does it taste good? Fuck yeah, it does. Do I shit it out in a couple days and have nothing to show for it? Absolutely. At least this topper will last my children's lifetime. my grandchildren my great grandchildren Dennis you may be demeaning the third party toppers with your statement there but it's not like the quality got better versus the other stern manufactured toppers it's still a price increase is significant and it's real and people see it because they're grass or if you feed them corn it's still a cow but it's just what type of cut do you want If you want the nicest and the best, Stern's offering it to you. If you want a second-party thing with a light strip that you can change with a remote control that swatches through colors, there's an option for that, too.
    39:30
    That's where I don't – relativity here. You drive a car, right, Dennis? Yes. You know a bicycle's a lot cheaper. Yes. You know that, right? I have a bike as well. Yeah. Do you eat cereal, Dennis? No. You don't. Listener, do you eat cereal? You better tell me that you don't eat Captain Crunch or Apple Jacks. Not that those aren't the greatest because they are. But you could spend $2 a box less on the generic shit. Tastes pretty similar. Still cereal. My point, Dennis, being it's all relative. Why be angry about this as you then put on your designer clothes and you walk through your house with your Sony 4K TV? there are cheaper options everywhere and we take advantage of the more expensive all the time only we don't cry bitch and moan about it i don't i i see your argument zach and i don't disagree with it except i think the issue here is that compared relative to its own category of stern branded products the price went up and they stuck a game mode in to try and make people buy it. I think that's what's upsetting people, not that the quality changed or all of a sudden toppers got expensive. Toppers have always been expensive. But I mean, other than Star Wars, this is the most expensive topper I'm aware of that Stern's put out. By a lot, I mean by a lot, this is $100 more than all their other toppers ever, except for false scarcity limited Star Wars topper actually i will argue to you that this is one of the cheapest stern offerings on the market and that is a fact that any analysis will uncover you're supposed to say how's that zach you tell me more about no i don't want to know about because it's going to be you're going to be arguing something stupid no look if you want to go buy a stern pinball topper right now jurassic park pinball topper is one of your cheapest options oh you're talking about people want to pick up a topper after they're not making it anymore. Ghostbusters topper, $1,200. Kiss topper, $800. Walking Dead topper, $800. If you really wanted a Black Knight Sword of Rage topper right now, I can guarantee you if a distributor, I'm not this type of distributor, but if I had one and I listed it for $700, it would get sold. My point being, $600 is expensive. Is it too expensive? I don't know. I'm not the one that gets to determine that because I'm one of the guys that bought it. So for me, no. For somebody else, yes. There's no argument there. I have no issue whatsoever with that. But you can't argue that it's the most expensive because it's not. I can for a new in-box sale, absolutely. What you can argue is that based on the numbers of previous toppers that were released, the ones you listed, my friend, this is actually a safer and a more sound investment in pinball than anything else you can buy.
    42:36
    Numbers don't lie. Hashtag, we only report the facts here. So I get the argument. I even get the anger. Hell, I don't want to spend $600 on a topper. I don't care. People are angry. Well. People are angry. Don't buy it. And I'm fine with them being angry. Here's my summary here. because I'm the topper guy. This is my jam.
    42:59
    Let me have this, listener. There's nothing wrong with a fully loaded Ford Taurus. Don't be mad at Mercedes. Look, Ford Taurus is a good car. You get the air conditioning just like the Mercedes. You get the power windows. You get the hell. You can get the heated seats in the newer Ford Taurus. The issue I'm having is this. Listener, answer these questions out loud. Are you angry that the stern topper costs $600?
    43:23
    Okay, I heard you. That was a weird response. I heard most of you. Okay. That's fine. No issue there. Are you angry that there is a bonus mode in this game that is now similar to a DLC concept? Okay. Whoa. That was really loud. Okay. Definitely heard that. I'm not mad at that. That's fine to have that take. Whenever I see these people on the forums, you know, 600, fuck that. That's too much money. Preach on, brother. That's your right. You can preach on. The only issue I have with this whole debacle is this. The minute that you take your own opinion and you take your anger and you aim it towards somebody else because they do enjoy something, that's the issue that I have here. And I think that's a bigger issue that we are having in pinball. I think the microcosm of pinball, this is a prime example, Dennis, albeit a topper. is a prime example of the community that we are choosing to form over the last couple years here. We are getting louder, more vocal. We are getting angrier at one another for a fucking toy accessory.
    44:36
    Why are people shaming others, attacking others? Dennis, people were threatened public humiliation if they were to purchase and to show this topper that they have this topper.
    44:50
    What are we doing? Be mad all you want. Voice frustration. If you don't want to buy it, don't buy it. That's fine.
    44:59
    But the minute that, you know, I heard this on Kaneda's podcast. I heard it on Kerry Hardy's reaction video. I heard it on Pinside. This threatening of, if you buy this topper, you are the problem. How are we growing a hobby and a community by those words?
    45:19
    I read a message on Pennside, and I've got to read this, just part of it, because it was shocking to me, and this comes from JJP distributor Dr. Frightener, who a lot of you know, on Pennside. Dennis, he says this, quote, If, all caps, anyone buys this topper, and I mean anyone, You're speaking for everyone that's okay to rape the community. End quote. He goes on with a tirade that I didn't care to listen to.
    45:54
    This is disgusting. If you don't like the topper, great. You got a lot of people with you. If you're saying that you're someone that is raping the community because you want a little extra something on your Jurassic Park, that's fucking disgusting. it's gross. That's kind of my message here.
    46:16
    People are confusing anger towards a need rather than anger toward a want. Psychologically, we're just getting it mixed up there. Do I have any points here, Dennis? Am I out of line saying, just leave people alone. If somebody likes something, why are you shitting on them? Let them like it. Don't make them feel like a bad person. Yeah, the idea of trying to embarrass people I think is quite silly when it comes to purchasing products and add-ons and such. It isn't – that's to say it's not – there are better causes one could invest their time in.
    46:55
    That being said I do understand the idea of the frustration where people feel like all this hobby has done the bigger and more popular it has become is just getting more and more expensive And they want to see an actual effort to have a line held a line drawn in the sand And the only way you can do that is to actually get people to en masse vote for their wallets. So some of that's just going to be this motivation to try and convince others to their way of thinking that, no, $600 is too much for a topper. We should draw a line in the sand and argue for that. But if I don't buy the topper, that's not enough. I need a lot of people not to buy the topper. I need the toppers to not sell out. That's what you would need.
    47:42
    And they're not going to get that, but that's what the desire – I mean, and I – I don't really – as you know, Zach, I don't really care about toppers. But I do sympathize with the fact that I got my first pinball machine in 2012. so I've been on the owner side of this hobby for quite a while now I've seen all these manufacturers sprout up and everything I learned in economics was that the more competition there is the more competitive it should be and prices should be forced down and it didn't happen in pinball it got worse and it's ridiculous because in a way I think that the consumer the consumers are liable in that regard because it's this weird blend. You do have people that are getting priced out of being able to do things and they want to participate as owners in this hobby. And then you got the used market and stuff and that's where some of that pressure tries to get relieved. And then there are other people that I think the ability to spend ridiculous sums is a point of pride. They're buying the Captain Crunch, not the cereal on the bottom. And they're touting it. They may not be obnoxious about it verbally, but they celebrate it by, oh, yeah, no, okay, $400 you could barely do as a topper. Well, I can do $600. I'm going to flaunt it. I'm going to show you how much better my life is than you. And they won't say it this way, but it's like, I'm more than happy for these prices to keep going up. Let's add $200 to a pinball machine every single year because I can afford it and that I get more exclusive and I'm more in the rarefied air the longer this goes on and the more these prices go up because I never wanted you poor people in this hobby anyway. That's what it feels like. That is an interpretation versus actual evidence of attacking. But I think some people are like that. There's a whole blend here. There are going to be some people that are going to attack this because it's Stern, and they don't like Stern, and their Highway fanboys are their JJP fanboys, and so anything Stern does is bad. We see that. What if I were to say, if you don't buy this topper, you are a loser and you're the problem? This is why we don't have – how would I have gotten some feedback there? Probably, but it would have been a very difficult argument. At least the people that are saying don't buy the topper have the argument of we're trying to prevent something. What would your argument be for people who didn't buy the topper being stupid? I mean, acknowledging that it's a bad argument anyway, but like what would be – It's a horrible argument. I would never take it, but you can equally say – Would your end goal be to get people to buy the – like what gets accomplished? The world is a prettier place with more toppers. One could argue that if you guys stop buying pinball machines and toppers, then they're going to stop making them. They're going to start making slot machines again. Like it's an asinine, stupid argument that I don't believe in. But if I were doing that, I think I'd get some backlash. But for some reason, nobody is getting backlash on this hate towards other people that are just simply enjoying products. Well, I would rather people not hate on others for the commercial purchases. These are fun toys. I think that it is expensive, and I think the $6 is a lot of money. I think that when compared, a lot of people are using the, you can buy an Xbox for this money. Absolutely. Which one is going to be a hell of a lot more fun? That Xbox. And it's not even close. Not even close. This thing doesn't even change game. It doesn't even change the game, really. Not at all. yeah but i mean that's too much that's too much of an apples and oranges anything mass i mean i've heard the same argument about well you could buy a 72 inch oled tv instead of buying a pinball machine it's like yeah you can but it's a mass-produced consumer electronic product versus a hand you know hand-built highly specialized much less popular thing and they're not going to be at the same price here that's a good point at the end of all this i think if you think this too much, voice your opinion. I'll support you voicing your opinion. If you think that you don't like the downloadable content, I'll support your opinion there too. I don't want to have to pay any more than I want this topper to be $200. I want it to be $100. I'm with you. Just don't attack people. Come on. We're better than that as a group. Hopefully, we can change that going forward. Yeah. I mean, we'll see. I guess my main takeaway from this topper is, well, it and the mode itself that it comes with, I don't think it's a game changer for really influencing a lot. I don't think there will be a lot of people that would buy the topper just because of the game mode. And in my opinion, I'm glad for that. I'm actually going to agree with you there. I will agree with you that. I do not think that that mode in and of itself justifies that extra big price. For me, and I thought it would. I thought, well, I'm paying. Let's see what this mode's got. No. But it's just, for me, it is damn good that this is a really good topper with excellent lighting, and I'm still a buyer. And based on the sales that we've received, a lot of people are buying this thing. I fully expect it to sell out. In fact, you're mentioning when you were talking about how much all these things are unused, all that really tells me is that Stern doesn't make enough of their toppers. because they're clearly not meeting demand if everything's doubling in price on the second-hand market. Or maybe they are, and they can afford to increase pricing like they are here because they know that resale value is high. Yeah, that could be part of it. I mean, they look at the used Mars. It's like the CGC strategy, right? I mean, they picked their remakes as the most popular games price-wise. Absolutely. That's why you're going to see something like an attack from Mars Ellie that comes with that topper, and that's the only way you can get that topper, will retain its value a hell of a lot better than a medieval madness that you can buy that topper as an accessory. Mark my word. I do say that I do feel a little... I'm not a big fan of that, even though I'm not wholly impressed by the game mode. To me, it is a little weird that that's not something that the LE buyers have by default.
    53:57
    That's an argument that I've heard a lot of. As a software thing. I totally get them not getting the topper because that wasn't advertised in the sale. But that was the same thing for me with the UV light kit when they knew they were going to release it because the ink is there. And it's like, not even the LE people? I mean, it's like, shouldn't the LE have all the bells and whistles? I mean, that's just a thing. I'm not an LE buyer. Well. But that would be part of my reason why I wouldn't be one is I'm like, I don't feel like I'm getting everything. I want it to have everything, too, the limited edition. But it's still apples and oranges, Dennis. If you're buying the top-of-the-line nicest Mercedes, there are still going to be options that are accessories, that they don't come even the nicest version. No, that's fair. It's just – yeah, for me, my biggest area of concern long-term – and it existed before this – is the DLC thing. I don't want to get to a world where pros and premiums don't play the same across their own category. their own SKU, their actual substantive modes. I am concerned about that. But isn't that kind of the way that it is right now? A lot of times the premium LE version has substantially different code. Right, right. Even on the Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles. Right, but we don't have a case where, I mean, imagine the sale ads where you're like, well, does your premium have the new double crossbow mode installed? Did you buy that? I mean, it's going to get really complicated. We start splitting the scale. I'm okay with a pro. I wasn't a fan of it initially, but I'm okay with a pro being different in what it does. Like, Turtles Pro has six-ball multiball. Turtles Premium has eight-ball multiball. I'm okay with that. But do we want to get to a point where if you buy the extra DLC, Turtles Premium gets ten-ball multiball?
    55:49
    That hasn't happened, but I worry it will because I think that it just divides the machines in a way that's confusing. And non-standard. You can't standardize. Well, yeah, yeah, because especially if we're going to move digital and we're going to have online leaderboards and stuff, if different people have the ability to buy their way into different modes that have different scoring. How does video game deal with that? I mean, is that still a pretty big hot topic in video gaming? It is, and it always will be. I mean, in the case of video games, a lot of times the DLC might be its own standalone. You know, a lot of those things are stories. So you might have your own separate story. They're not playing the game on a leaderboard. Or a lot of the DLC sales stuff is cosmetic. So it's like, oh, I just want my character to look different. So I can buy that as an option. Do you see it slowing down in video gaming? No, video game market is completely relying on DLC income. The reason why there is, which is different than pinball, is video games got to the point where the publishers felt that they couldn't raise the price of the base game anymore. That's why games have remained $60 for like 15 years now. They're making up the difference on the DLC. Pinball is raising its price every year.
    57:02
    They don't have the same justification. How is the video game industry doing right now compared to the last 20 years? It is the behemoth.
    57:13
    There is no industry bigger than the video game industry. Almost in entertainment, right? To my knowledge, yeah. As far as entertainment, it is multifold larger than Hollywood, and I mean before AMC couldn't show any movies. It is the biggest form of entertainment because it's easy to get into. It's low cost. But you see, when a game gets four years old and I call my game distributor, they don't try and charge me the new – Star Trek Pro didn't all of a sudden become a $5,500 game because four years passed.
    57:47
    The $60 game became a $10 game. It's a completely different operating industry in terms of how the money works. Your buyer base is a lot different, the population of those buying video games, compared to those buying pinball machines for their homes. No, there are tremendous amount of – as much as pinball machines are starting to feel like video games, there are tremendous differences between the industries. Tremendous. And it'll never be the same. Never. So I would say that I am with you 100%. I worry that manufacturers will lean in toward that DLC because the numbers that support it in the video game industry are very high. So I don't want that. The add-ons and different things, I'm okay with blowing a couple dollars here and there for a cool new skin or something. Okay. But I'm with you. When it changes the actual experience and the objectives, quote, unquote, slash score, that's going to be tricky. But I worry that it's going to go that direction because it works, because it makes money. And I think that's where when people saw this with the mode and they saw the new price on this topper, I think that's where their heads went. Yeah, they're trying to nip it in the bud. Yeah. I get that. Dennis, we just had maybe the most satisfying conversation on the air that you and I have ever had to me personally. And I want to thank you for that because that felt awesome. I thought it was really boring, but I'm glad you enjoyed it. Who else is talking about Topper analysis to that degree in all of pinball?
    59:30
    I made a spreadsheet. Only the pinball show. All right, Dennis, let's whip through the rest of this news. Do you know Dwight Sullivan was on the Final Round Pinball Podcast and the Loser Kid Pinball Podcast to talk about his upcoming game, Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles? I do. I heard both interviews. On the Loser Kid Podcast, he spoke about much of the game being based on the first five episodes of that TMNT animated series. Dennis, if you had to pick money aside, pro, premium, LE, what do you think the best package, gameplay, art, everything, all in one, one choice, and one choice is yours, Dennis. Premium. him. Ooh, good call. Now, Dwight Sullivan on the final round Pinball Podcast, exclusively here at the Pinball Network. Ding!
    60:14
    I'm going to give them a lot of credit because that was one damn great episode. They had Josh Sharp in as well. But when it came to Dwight Sullivan, we know the lead code design, software design on Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles, I can get a bit confused sometimes. Dwight has a complex mind and his code set can be presented very basic, but it can also veer in different directions of complexity for those advanced players. On the final round pinball podcast, Dennis, he did the best job. The host did the best job in making that TMNT rule set digestible, not only as an audio form, but just in general. It was explained better than the stream. I understood it a lot better. So kudos to the guys over at Final Round and to Dwight Sullivan. Do you think the rule set looks understandable? I'll never fully understand it until I play it, but conceptually it makes sense to me. I really liked where Dwight was getting clearly very excited explaining how the skill shots all stacked in the co-op mode and you could get this 8x hurry-up thing going on. Yep. And that made sense to me. And I finally understand that now. That's what was confusing me. but he's calling it the greatest rule in pinball. Yep. Maybe it is. It sounded fun. It made me want to play the co-op mode. It sounded confusing the first three times I heard it, but on this final round, you guys have to listen to this. It just all clicked for me. Rick and Morty received an update from Spooky Pinball. It now includes the Meeseeks Mania multiball. Oh, man. Okay. All right.
    61:57
    Oh, yeah. You gotta get Swifty. Adventure, four new dimensions, two new Mortys, new call-outs, and much, much more. You excited about getting your hands on a Rick and Morty at some point? I wonder if mine will arrive any day now. Where's my f***ing Rick and Morty at? Yours is coming.
    62:20
    Maybe. You picked your stuff. You've told us that on a prior episode. You've got to pick your bling. Like three weeks ago. Yeah, well, they're social distancing still. They're building, but being responsible about it.
    62:34
    If you were a character in the Rick and Morty's universe, which character would you be? Would it be Mr. Poopy Butthole? I like what you got. Good job.
    62:51
    Or would it be... I'm not answering that because I don't know what any of that means. You won't watch the series? I haven't seen it, no. Oh, my God.
    63:09
    I got things to do, Zach. I don't have time to watch some kids' show. Don't. No, just don't. It is an important show to watch. I have no time to watch some snorting sequel. If you value entertainment and comedy.
    63:22
    I'll squanch you up after that one. The season four ended this past week, I believe. Final episode. Or actually, last week. You don't even know. You don't even know what you're talking about. I think you just pretend to have seen Rick and Morty to make me look bad. Show me what you got. I can do call-outs all day. Oh, my God. Listener, the episode about the vat of acid, fucking so smart and great. that episode conceptually was better than likely 80 to 90 percent of feature films that you're going to see this year prove me wrong well that's going to be easy because there are no feature films this year thanks to coronavirus oh god when you're having some fun the party's just begun but then here comes danny downer Woo-hoo.
    64:19
    It's now time for the darling little pinball podcast segment that everyone in pinball... I can't say loves, but they certainly have a feeling about. It's the Pinball Show Presents... I can't even yell this. I'm so excited about it. My blood is pumping. It's boiling. Fuck it. Pinball Market Trends! And if you didn't see that coming, you should have turned down your radio because it comes every week like that, people.
    64:50
    This is why people can't tell you things. In the shadows, in the darkness, in the dead of night, I warn people when they say, well, it's so loud. I'm like, you can't tell him. I run for president, thank you. How will he improve if I don't tell him? No, because when Zack comes up with an idea, he doesn't listen to anyone else. So he's not going to change it. He's going to make it worse, if anything. So it's better just to bear it. And then they tell you. The Screaming Goat almost made cash into a guardrail. And the next episode, you stuck eight of them in.
    65:27
    We haven't heard of Screaming Goat yet. Turning up this week is the class action lawsuit that Zack Many receives from the pinball community for breaking the speakers of their homes and vehicles. Ew. Better have an attorney on retainer there, Mr. Manny. See, that was clever, right?
    65:48
    It's not funny because it's true. Also turning up this week, love it or hate it, is Stern Pinball's Jurassic Park pinball topper. What a shock. You heard it at the headliner of this show. Everybody's talking about it. How can we not say factually and objectively this thing is trending up? Sales are through the roof. Everybody's wanting to... You guys, you know it's coming up. You know it's there. You insert it. Scream it out. We're going to do this together, listener. I'm going to count down from three, two, one, and at the end of one, I want us, everybody, to scream our favorite pinball podcast call-out ever in pinball. You ready? Listener, three, two, one. Bye, bye, bye! That's right. Everybody loves it. the stern jurassic park topper is selling very well it's being talked about and if it bleeds it leads so the more we talk about it the more everybody's exposed to it the more people are seeing videos of it the more people are falling in love with this topper what's it going to be like in a year are they still going to make it fomo bye bye bye we're gonna sit back wait they might clearance this thing out only time will tell but we'll have to wait and see also training up this week is goats last week it was bugs this week it's goats and you know what i'll throw some llamas in there too there you go so for the listener goats are training up greatest of all time keith elwyn has goats in his jurassic park pinball machine there's now goat enabled modes because of pinball toppers what world do i live in and everyone loves goats that are featured primarily on the pinball show people are talking about the goats now dennis there's no going back that we could in your opinion is that good or is it more mad goat puns now that's so so stupid i really don't care for this segment i can't say i hate it though because then people think I'm just picking on you.
    67:59
    No, because then if it bleeds, it leaves again. Why do you keep sending us your scathing edict on news media? I'm like the guy, the Daily Bugle.
    68:15
    Parker! You're more like Inside Edition. Get the scoop on that Stern Jurassic Park top ship! I am really pleased that I guess the one highlight because as I noted earlier I'm not really into toppers but I did like that Stern did not have the goat scream in that mode I just so was waiting for it I was like you guys have a chance to just really make this man indebted to you I think they'd have known they wouldn't have sold toppers if they hadn't screamed I can guarantee you this. They would sell 200 more toppers if they had that screaming goat in it, damn it. Yeah. Stern team, let's make it happen.
    69:00
    Maybe that'll be their thank you to me for doing that video. They'll send me my own code of a screaming goat. I did not vet this, but I saw someone on Pinside post a screenshot showing that you could buy a baby, a kid, a fainting goat for only $300. so you could get two actual goats for the price of that topper you shouldn't have told me that they won't stand they're feigning if someone throws something and they're going to fall off your jurassic park so you can't stand no i want i want a screaming goat i want to go like the one in adam sandler's this is a throwback people his comedy series i had the cd growing up i think uh they're all gonna laugh at you or is what the hell happened to me if anybody knows that i'm a comedy snob that the goat that whoa whoa whoa whoa whoa you cannot don't you cannot sing the praises of adam sandler and then the same breath say you are a comedy snob absolutely i am because early adam sandler and some of his work on those early albums were genius and the goat was one of them first time he used fists you know usually he hits me with the stick and just fucking whacks away this time he dropped the stick and you know he fought me like fucking 30 style boxing you know putting the dukes up he's like put your dukes up i'm like i got fucking no dukes on man i want you guys to email the pinball network at gmail.com if you have love for those early adam sandler and look these are going to fly over your head if you're not familiar with it but a dollar 25 for you sweetheart it's a dollar 25 right you got a little that dennis you don't know about any of these They all gonna laugh at you Hey Mom I saw this great skirt at the mall today but it was which isn that high of a price but I was nervous to buy it What do you think No Really I really like it They all going to laugh at you Oh, Mom, who is? They're all going to laugh at you! Mom, you're so paranoid. No! Hey, Mom, I've got to get up pretty early tomorrow for Little League Triad. No! Yeah, I have to be at the field at 9 o'clock. They're all going to laugh at you! Do you think you could drop me off there? They're all going to laugh at you! How am I going to get there? They're all going to laugh at you! I'll walk, I guess. No! I've heard some, but I was like, my name's Adam Sandler. I acted like a little kid. Now give me money. That's his bit. It's his one thing. It's kind of like Chris Farley. All he did was yell, I need to get in a van down by the river. He didn't have much range. That's all I'm saying. Another genius. Hot af, Veronica, come on. So hot. Want to touch the hiney.
    71:33
    Turning down this week, unfortunately, is a number of things. Holy moly, where are we? Everything's trending down, Dennis. Hold on tight. Because trending down this week is a contradiction of hating on making people feel bad about buying a topper for their pinball machine. Look, that is funny alone. Bear with me. We already talked about toppers. Unfortunately, trending down is a $1,200 pair of Gucci jeans that some podcasters buy and complain about $600 toppers. Sell, sell, sell. Also trending down, unfortunately, is a $2,000 bottle of Remy Martin Cognac. Oh, man. Pinkies in the air, noses in the air, drinking that nasty shit. Sell, sell, sell. And what happens at the end of it? Comes out of your pee-pee hole and goes right down the drain. Remember, Dennis, my topper will last generations. Also trending down this week is spending $80,000 and still being stuck in a Dodge. Sell, sell, sell. When you could have just saved some money and looked a hell of a lot better driving an Audi, a Mercedes, or even a Porsche. Strong take. And last but certainly not least, training down this week is having an expensive Manhattan apartment that doesn't even have wall paint or any goddamn curtains or blinds. Sell, sell, sell! Oh, Kaneda, if you do one more Facebook Live video and I see you in an insane asylum of your bedroom with no blinds, dude, just put some damn curtains up, for the love of God. I'll send you some. Oh, I've got it now. Pinball curtains that have all of the stern toppers on them. Brilliant! That's a lot of licensing.
    73:14
    Oh, man, I love this segment. And so do other people. But a lot of them tune in to hear about the Pinball Show Presents Pinball Market Trends Deal of the Week. Bye, bye, bye!
    73:26
    Is that what you tune in for, Dennis? No. That should never have been added. I don't know why you keep it in this segment. I wish everyone understood that before we even went into Market Trends. You already conveyed to me that it was going to be a 30-minute segment.
    73:42
    I was like, oh my god. It's true, too. I'm just trying to nurture our listener and feed them what they are hungry for their tum tum wants market trends I really don't like deal of the week because it's like by the time the episode comes out it might be gone anyway so it's sort of pointless it's in the spirit Dennis the spirit this ain't Christmas what are you talking about don't be such a Scrooge I'm not even at the end Scrooge understands the true meaning of pinball market trends. All he did was buy a goose. You give him all this credit. Deal of the week this week is for an Avatar limited edition right outside of Springfield, Missouri. I wonder if you know this guy. Tiger Pin.
    74:30
    Pinside. He's selling... Oh, that was a roar. I thought that was a snore. No, it was a roar. Is that better?
    74:39
    Yeah, it was more clear there. I guess tigers don't. Do tigers sound like that? Sorry. Well, I raised a whole bunch, so let me tell you. I don't know. I want to see you as Joe Exotic. I've not seen that either. I don't know what you're talking about. Din Din, let's go for Halloween. You can be Joe Exotic, and I can be your John with my shirt off and missing teeth. Sell, sell, sell. That would be awesome. Maybe I can be that bitch Carol Baskin. Have you not seen that show still? No, I have not.
    75:16
    Avatar L.E. up on the marketplace on Pinside for $5,800. Now, typically, these are going to run about $55,000 to $6,000. But this one is loaded. Third owner, great condition game. It's got a color DMD, an LED OCD port. It has mirror plate speaker lights, the Navi Ball. I thought that was standard. A topper. A lighted apron that turns blue when the Navi Ball is in play. That's extra. And back glass light improvements. Hell, it's even got a larger Banshee in the back. If you want it on Avatar, this has got it. And there's a switch on the back of the topper that if you flip it on, you get an extra mode. Buy, buy, buy. I'm joking. That's not what happens. $5,800 Oboe. I think you can talk this individual down a little bit. Listed it on June 4th. I think he's going to take $5,400 cash for it. And that, my friends, is a deal of the week. And one I'd actually be interested in. And remember, listeners, if you want to play along with us at the Pinball Show on the Pinball Market Trends, submit your own viewer trend each and every week. We had fun last week. I'm going to give it a breather this week. I'm going to give it a breather. I'm going to let you guys re-energize, submit me some good stuff, and we will air it next week on the Pinball Show, Pinball Market Trends. Or not. But until then, Dennis, the listeners are just going to have to wait until next week for another new episode of the Pinball Show. Represents Pinball Market Trends. Danny Downer. Pinball Market Trends. Danny Downer. Danny Downey you like the snap Danny Downey alright Dennis before we close down this circus on wheels let's dive into a new segment wanna? yeah I love new segments I didn't think we'd have a new segment absolutely now we've still got a Dr. John quiz 2.0 mindfuck edition coming up but we're going to let that one marinate a little bit but this week we're going to do a new segment that Dennis and I are calling TPS MVP.
    77:52
    The pinball show's most valuable player. Dennis, can you fill them in on what the segment is about? TPN MVP, a randomly selected pinball machine, will be chosen, and then we will discuss who we think was the most valuable person on the team that worked on that game, be it the programmer, be it the designer, be it the artist. And that is my summary. Or the topper designer. I don't know. The topper, I guess, came out with the game. That will work, but otherwise it probably does not. So let's do that. I think this is going to be fun, and I've not heard anybody else do it. So let's try it. We're going to go to a randomizer right now, and using the Pinside Top 100, We're going to randomly get a number selected here. Siri baby, pick a random number between 0 to 100. It's 11. All right. Looking at the Pennside Top 100, number 11 for our MVP segment this week is Elvira's House of Whores, Dennis. Developed by Stern in 2019, what we know about Elvira's House of Whores is that some of the individuals were not employed, employed full-time by Stern Pinball. This is the third rendition of the Elvira series, this time by Stern Pinball, but the old gang is back again. The game was designed primarily by Dennis Nordman. The mechanics by Tom Copra. Lime and sheets on code and software. Artwork by Greg Freres. Animation by Chuck Ernst and team. Sound by Jerry Thompson. And the call-outs by the mistress of the dark herself, Cassandra Peterson. and also by Tim Kutzrow.
    79:34
    Now, a lot of these individuals worked on Scared Stiff back in the 90s by Bally, as well as Party Monsters from Bally back in 89? I think it was 89-ish, 90? We've got a lot of MVPs in general here, but when we're thinking about Elvira's House of Horrors, this is a highly sought-after game, as it is number 11, so they're all MVPs. but let's take a second to really talk about who your mvp is of this particular title dennis and i'll speak about my mvp i'm actually going to go ahead and go with dennis nordman wow okay i think you have you have three things that really stand out the fact that you have elvira doing the call outs all the custom speech which is which is really cool and has received recognition in terms of a Twippy Award. That's true. Good point.
    80:29
    And then obviously Lyman Sheets, very, very popular programmer. He's been doing a lot of these more boutique games lately, and I've often had in my head, even if it's not on purpose, that stern strategy of, hey, let's put him on the stuff where there's not even a pro model because Lyman sells games.
    80:48
    So we could sell some of our more premium models with The Power of the Lyman Code. And I really do enjoy the modes as they've evolved in this game. Granted, I have not been able to play it in quite a while due to the lockdown, but we did have it on location, and I really ended up liking this game a lot more than I thought I would. But the reason why I'm going to go ahead and go with Dennis Nordman is, in my opinion, it is his best layout he ever did.
    81:14
    Whoa! Whoa, that's what you're getting on the TPS MVP segment. You're going to get bold takes from Dennis Creasel. Wow. I like the house shots, both the ramp to go ahead and start your modes, to the ball lock. I think everything is reasonably tightly packed, but not overly so. But you are punished when you don't make those shots. I think the mausoleum shot and the right ramp shot are – it's a fan layout, but the way it's all incorporated feels very different to me versus like a medieval madness or an attack from Mars. And so it's got a lot of, and I associate Nordman with flow, but to me it's like this is the perfection of his design philosophy. It's the best I've ever seen of him do it. I think this makes Whitewater look like a joke. I think that as a layout, it is incredible. It is easily his best layout. And so for that reason, I'm going to designate him MVP on the project.
    82:15
    I'm going to give you a lot of credit, Dennis, because when you first said Dennis Nordman, I thought, wow, okay, he's not going for the low-hanging fruit there. But you're convincing me very much so, especially as you're talking about the placement of the mechanics, the placement of the toys and mechanisms, the back door mechanism, the lifting ramp, the guardrails that fly up, even that side lock shot under the trunk that it can fall into, the trunk lifting up and going. You're right. This really is a well-done, designed game. And we know that even Dennis Nordman helped with some of the structure of those rules. Because they have too much in common and similar with respect to the others in the series to say that Dennis Nordman had nothing to do with that. So we know that oftentimes designers work hand-in-hand with the coders and the software developers on what they would like to see structure and flow-wise of these rule sets. So I think that was a really good pick. Wow. You've impressed me. But that's not your pick. So my MVP for this particular title, Elvira's House of Horrors, I am going to give it to Lyman Sheets. Very close in second would be Jerry Thompson on the sound, call-outs, music, choreography of this that he did win a Twit before, I believe. But I'm going to give it to Lyman Sheets. And that's because for me to give it to Lyman Sheets, Lyman Sheets isn't necessarily my favorite coder. His work on Batman 66 has been deemed a masterpiece. His work on The Walking Dead is, at this point, probably my favorite code and rule set in a pinball machine. But some of his work, Iron Man, it's not really my style. metallica i can see the greatness but it doesn't resonate with me so for me giving lyman sheet this mvp it says a whole hell of a lot because i actually think that this is one of lyman's he did monster bash i actually think this is which i'm not crazy about this is a top three coded lyman sheets game and we're not even at 1.0 yet it is deep the breadth is there as well it has a lot of character and color already to the code set the palette is really deep on this game you can go deep and you can you can take the buffet approach right you can eat as much food as you can for as cheap as you can as quickly as you can but he's starting to put the polish on this palette and And it's resonating with a lot of people. Dennis, when this game came out, a lot of people were mixed on it. They said it shoots well. We'll have to see where the code goes. You can't keep this game on the proverbial shelves now. And I think primarily that is because of the Lyman Sheets work in it. So Lyman Sheets is awarded my TPS MVP for Stern Pinball's Elvira's House of Horse. That's a good pick. It is a really fun code set. Yeah. That's a tough game to do an MVP on right out of the gate because everybody kind of knocked it out there. Yeah, there's not really anything that I would point to that I don't like about Elvira. Of course. I think it's a very satisfying game. In fact, if people were to put time on both, I think you would see it poach more votes now from Jurassic Park than it did in the Twippies initially. That's an interesting take, and I think you're right. Yeah, I think the biggest difference is that the layouts from Elwynn feel so fresh because we've only seen two designs from him out of Stern so far, whereas this did go with a fan, but fans are done for a reason. Absolutely. That's why it surprised me that you went Nordman there, because I know you talk about fan layouts, and it's not that you don't like them, but you know what you're getting with a fan layout. And sometimes you like quirky layouts, so I'm surprised, and I think it was well-deserved. It's just in terms of overall, I think he's a good designer, but I've never primarily really loved any of his designs. And I just thought the way it worked with this was really good. And while the shots are a hand layout, as you pointed out, the mechanisms that he incorporated throughout the design. Because, I mean, they're throughout the design. It just feels fun. It works really, really well. So that was the pinball show's MVP. I like that segment. Yeah, it was nice. You probably liked it because it was short and sweet. Yeah, I like things that are short. I like things that are short and sweet, like my little four-inch grizzle cologne. You thought he was gone, but he's back from college. You saw someone ask about that is why you brought that up. He's back from college. He's got a nose piercing, which I think is odd. But hey, I still love him for who he is.
    87:16
    Shut up, Dad. All right, y'all, that was episode 17 of the Pinball Show. I hope you enjoyed it. Dennis, did you enjoy yourself this week? We talked a little bit too much about toppers, but it was the news. I'd say it wasn't quite enough, so I think that was a good balance. Can you let everybody know if they want to reach out to you and confess their love for you and some nudie magazine day pics? Who do they go to? Where do they go? They can most easily reach me over at the Eclectic Gamers Podcast. That would be eclecticgamerspodcast.gmail.com, facebook.com slash eclecticgamerspodcast, or the website's eclecticgamers.com. It gets a little lonely in the TPN office. I'm not going to lie. Your desk just sits there vacant with dust on it because you're over there partying it up with Tony. Well, why don't you just call Craig Bobby and have him take my desk? So right now Craig's in the mailroom, but, you know, plays his cards right. I thought he did pretty good on his episode. He did take the helm of the midweek episode six you guys should check out featuring Craig Bobby and his antics. And I think he's going to have some of the correspondence on as co-hosts here and there. So we'll see if Craig's going to continue running with that midweek show. It deserves some love, and Craig Bobby's the one that can give it all the love it needs. Shrek and bike. also check out the final round pinball podcast episode nine we were talking about it before might be their most solid episode that if i was doing a portfolio of what jeff and marty were all about over there at the final round that's a good example top three with orby is back and he talked about some weird ass ways of nudging a pinball machine so tune into that as well as joel with just another pinball podcast in episode three dennis he talked about what to look for when purchasing a pre-owned pinball machine. Yeah. And last week we were able to announce the arrival of Mystery Pinball Theater 3K. Now, MPT3K,
    89:27
    I almost think it's easier to just say Mystery Pinball Theater 3000. He does a lot of location-based pinball play, so we'll see much more of that in the coming year, fingers crossed with all of the pandemic stuff, as well as virtual pinball.
    89:45
    Yay, everyone else that likes that stuff. But I'm getting ahead of myself. You can email us directly at thepinballnetwork at gmail.com or tune in to some of these podcasts if you want to on your favorite podcatcher or thepinballnetwork.net. Review us, if you're so kind, on one of your favorite review catchers. And pretty soon... Uh-oh, can't do a drumroll here. you may be able to sport and wear some swag from the pinball show. Stay tuned. Coming up this week on TPN is the announcement of streaming affiliates. I'm so sorry.
    90:29
    It's delayed. I'm sorry. That's all on me. I'm still trying to review and present to Dennis and others, as well as possibly another midweek show. Follow us on Facebook. Follow us on YouTube. We've got more and more stuff jumping up on those mediums. Check myself and Greg Bone out on Straight Down the Middle, a pinball show. And if you're ready to buy a brand new pinball machine, that Turtles. Or, hey, Jurassic Park Topper. Oh, psst. Hey, guys. I haven't advertised it yet, But I'm about to do an unboxing of the Stranger Things illuminated shooter knob and the L-Virus shooter knob. I've got them in stock. Go ahead and email me at Zach, C-A-C-H, at FlipTheLetterInOutPinball.com or call me at 812-457-9711 and get yours before everybody else. That should have been the deal of the week. And subscribe and follow us at Flip and Out Pinball on the YouTube channel because we're going to do more and more unboxings with toppers and different accessories. So that's going to be a lot of fun. For Dennis Creasel, I'm Zach Minney. Side flip the on you catch.
    91:42
    Big Latin? What the hell is that? What are you talking about? And always practice safe pinball and hashtag team topper up. Goodbye from Adam Sandler. Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. Oh, I made a lot of money. I did my, I did my, I was Jack and I was Jill. I'm so good.
    92:07
    It's not a liver or kidney. We just have to wait and see. You're going to live in a Manhattan apartment down by the river. that's ridiculous when you're having some fun the party's just begun but then here comes dinny downer i hate you yes i will go back to school and achieve victory doesn't mean i'm working here jesus i'm working here people i'm fucking we'll do it live god okay um i got that reference oh you know you knew that's why i did my inside edition joke at your expense earlier I can stop you if you try. Don't I have a nice rack?
    93:14
    Veronica, I thank you for beating the shit out of me. I see things so clearly now. I choose my destiny. Oh, Billy, I knew you had it in you.
    93:29
    We're here to help you, Billy. Get back in school to stay You gotta work real hard and stick it out Till graduation day Hey, kids, it's me I bet you thought that I was dead But when I fell over I just broke my leg And got a hemorrhage in my head There are obstacles in the way But together we shall overcome Cause you can't break a spirit and you can't kill a dream Do you have any more gum, more gum, more gum, more gum? Do you have any more gum?