you're listening to the head-to-head people podcast find us on facebook email us at head Welcome, everybody, to the Head to Head Pinball Podcast. This is episode 119, and my name's Martin, and back with me... He who missed you? Did you miss me? I did. Well, we're going to hear all about your OBX experience, I'm sure. Absolutely. So jelly. You and Josh did a good job. Josh is great, isn't he? Yeah, they're awesome. The biggest thing is I'm just so happy that when I can't be on, we have the best people. So it's like I don't have to worry about it at all. It's great. And then I actually get a week that I can listen to the podcast like back in the day. So it's perfect. I know. So, yeah, I'm looking forward to those moments soon coming up. We'll talk about that later. Big market tease. It is. So let's talk about some news. And the first news item we're going to talk about, it literally came in a couple of hours before we started recording, and that is that Gene Cunningham has passed away. Do you know who Gene Cunningham is? I only knew the name when I saw the context of it in here. I had associated Gene with Big Bang Bar. I knew those were connected because that was like in the very infantile status of when I joined pinball. So it was just this thing that was happening that I heard about. I was like, oh, what's the big deal about this? So he's obviously very well known in the pinball community. Some would say he's been polarizing. He's a very big collector. I first knew of him when I saw the special when lit movie slash documentary, whatever you want to doc your movie. I don't know. I guess you could probably call it that. And so he's been known. He always goes to Pinball Expo and all those shows. And everybody knows who he is. Just a very big name. A couple of things historically to note about him. One, he was one of the people that tried to buy the pinball assets from Bally Williams when they shut up shop at the end of 99, I think it was. He wasn't the Australian one because wasn't there something to do with that in Australia? Yeah, I think he got rights to some of the stuff. But yeah, so there was still the assets, but then there was also the business itself. So, you know, when we had Roger Sharpe on, he mentioned that he tried to buy the pinball division and so did Gene Cunningham. But at the time, Bailey Williams just went, nah, we're just shutting it down, but you can buy the assets. But at the time, I can't remember who it was, it might have been Steve Kordek who was working there at the time. Before, like I think he knew that they were going to shut down the division. So he stockpiled all this paperwork and schematics and design stuff, put it aside. and then I believe Gene Cunningham got a hold of those assets somehow and then I think he then sold them off to somebody else. But the other thing, speaking of buying assets, that he did was, and this is probably what I knew he was most famous for coming into the hobby as well, was he got his hands on the assets to Capcom Pinball when they shut that down as well and then managed to make, I can't remember how many it was, but let's just say it was 100 Big Bang Bars under the name the Illinois Pinball Company. So he was responsible for the Big Bang Bar remakes. I think at the time there might have only been six or seven of them that were actually made by Capcom as prototypes, but he then took all the parts and made, I'm guessing, around about 100 units. I've played it. It is a very, very good game, and that's what he's known for. I know it is polarizing. I know people sort of like it. Some people don't. the thing that really stands out for me about big bang bar is first of all how it looks it is a beautiful looking game one thing i remember as well is that the the flippers are so freaking strong the layout and the rules are probably where it gets a bit questionable but it's still a fun game to play i got to play it at the obx for spend a decent too much time on it and the upper Frey Flipper was broken, but it was very much... I mean, the fact that you get into multiball and you can just backhand that left ramp, it just was so boring to play. It feels good, but it breaks the game. The rest of the game doesn't matter. I have to say that with the sound up, that is by far, in my experience, the dirtiest game that's ever been made. It's an adult thing. Yeah, like the tube stripper or the tube dancer like alien stripper you know yeah full name she just moans at you and yeah to do things i was like wow this wow i was like this this would not fly today yeah it um yeah you probably wouldn't get away with it so yeah look that's what people say some people sort of play and go oh it's a bit boring some people say they really like it i think it's one of these games where if you play the game you can't see my my air quotes and i was having this conversation Well, you were part of that, Shackrip, as well, when we're talking about Avatar, in that if you break the game and you do the one thing, then it's terrible. But if you look at the rules and what you're meant to do and you play the game or you play the playfield, then it's actually a better game. And Big Bang Bar, so in the context we were talking about Avatar, in the context of Big Bang Bar, it's the same thing. in that if you actually play all the modes, do all the multiballs, and shoot around the playfield, it's quite a fun game. If you don't, and then you just backhand that ramp, which looks great and feels great, then you're kind of breaking the game, and it's a bit boring. Yeah, I mean, and some of the modes were interesting, and, you know, it shoots fine. There's not too much you're really actually shooting. I guess I just, in a context of when, like, this is the game that, like, everyone, oh, wow, Capcom, the price tag it holds and how coveted it is, and everyone says that it's the best Capcom game. I'm like, have you played Pinball Magic? Pinball Magic is a far superior game to Big Bang Bar. If you had the two of them side by side, I'd play Big Bang Bar over Pinball Magic. There's just something a little bit clunky about Pinball Magic. Admittedly, Big Bang Bar can be a little bit clunky, mainly because the flippers are so strong and it's not a flow game. There's a big bank of targets right in front of you, and some of the shots are really tight as well. So you can sort of miss your shots. You've really got to nail them. Just the rules thing. I find that Pinball Magic is a much more engaging game where you play the entire play field. And I do like the magic theme. Is that a specific thing to Big Bin Bar? Did they juice the flippers just for that game? because other Capcom games, I don't think that Pinball Magic has overly juiced up flippers. They're quite snappy. I think the one that really is, is it called Airborne? Yeah, that's what it needs it. Yeah, because of those really, really long, steep ramps. Those flippers are very, very punchy. Now that's a bad game. I like that game. Really? Yeah. I think you're seeing it, again, And I think you're saying it through the lens of rules and tournament and all that kind of stuff. But just for a game to just flip and have fun, I actually quite like Airborne. I mean, talk about ramps. It's got ramps. It's got wire forms all over the freaking place. I never see the thing. So it must be just either they didn't make a lot of them or it's just a maintenance nightmare. But, yeah, I guess once you know how to play games, it's hard to turn off that when you're, like, judging games or, you know, form of your opinion about games of turning that off and forgetting that oh well it's when it's a one-shot game and you just hit the ramp as much as you can so it's like and also the fact i just don't get to see them as much and comparatively like i've played a ton of pinball magic because there's a couple locations locally that have one versus you know big bang bar this was the first the longest i've ever spent on a big bang bar and i think i played i've played airborne twice ever maybe yeah i know someone that's got an airborne and uh you know back in the day i knew somebody that had one as well um friend of the show lucas um he has a big bang bar so i've played it quite a bit at his place and i quite like them i think people magic's my least favorite really what is the thing you don't like about it i'm just out of curiosity it's layout i don't like the feel of the layout. But again, it's just a personal thing. Lots of people love Pitmore Magic and it came out at the same time as Theatre of Magic. Like the same year, almost I think the same month even. It was like kind of like July. Oh, really? Whatever year it was, like July 95 or something like that. They both came out at exactly the same time. Exact. That's crazy. What do you mean? It's really crazy. Well, I believe the story is that they were aware, each company, that they were making a magic-based pinball. They just went, oh, fuck it. We're just going to do it anyway. So what happened at that point in time that multiple companies just went, we need a magic pinball machine? Do you know what was going on that year or whatever when it was released? No. No, I don't really know the full story of that, but surely some people can write in that we were in the industry at the time. They were acutely aware that it came out. So I think at the time when they came out, really what happened was everyone went, Oh, Theater of Magic is amazing, and Pinball Magic is its poorer cousin. That makes sense. Yeah, I suppose if you compare the two. Although I think that definitely there's much better tricks and gimmicks or toys or whatever in Pinball Magic than there is Theater of Magic. For sure. Theater's got the trunk, and that's pretty much it for the most part. Oh, it's got the little trapdoor. Yeah, trapdoor. but it doesn't have all these different magnet tricks like floating ball and the ball over the magic wand has that been done again? has there been? well that's what we were saying we think that homebrew of Dragon's Lair is going to have a ramp that has a magnet that goes underneath it that does the same sort of thing but yet to see that maybe well magnets that work would be good um you know that's pretty much most of the the game so yeah look it really the point is so gene cunningham was such a major person in the industry our thoughts go out to his family and those that knew him i have never met him personally but i really wanted to call it big bang bar not just because whether it's a good or a bad game but it existed because of this man i believe it um it nearly sent him broke as well i don't think he made money on it at all one of those things i know famously where people go yeah we'll sell it for x amount of dollars and then turns out it's going to take it did take longer than expected i think it was the wizard of oz of its time where everyone there was just delays and delays and delays and then it obviously cost him a lot more money than he budgeted so he i think he lost money on it but he made it good on him for doing it and good on him for being a big ambassador for the industry and i know a lot of people i've seen a lot of commiserations coming through on Facebook and on Pinside. So we just wanted to recognize Gene as his contribution to the industry. Yeah, certainly good on history. So did he get all of Capcom or did he just get Big Bang Bar? I don't know whether he got the rights to everything. What I know he got was, I think he got all the parts that were there to be able to make the games. Because Capcom shut down its division right as Big Bang Bar was about to go into production. So they'd already bought all the parts to make 200 of them. He just got all of that and made them. I think there was a few additional parts he needed to have custom made for it to complete them. But for the most part, he had enough to build those machines. I wonder what happened to, I guess, the Capcom rates after that. They did get handed to somebody else. I do know the name, but I can't remember who it is. But it's like Pinball Inc. or something. The people that are obviously doing Kingpin. so they've got that's a capcom yep it is indeed was that supposed to was that like the game right before Big Bang no it was the game to be released after so it was really only prototypes and I think there might have only been maybe three or four of them I can't remember the name the numbers there but Kingpin was meant to be after and Kingpin is a great game I've played that at TPF it's good fun yeah I've heard that it's good I wonder because I mean isn't Big Bang Bar on the list of rumored stuff for CGC? Well, it's just a rumor. Just a hope, I guess. I personally think it's pure rumor and speculation. I don't know if there's any evidence to say. Because that would be the first game to leave the Williams Valley brand, right? That they have done or would be rumored to do. Well, except for their original theme. Oh, yeah. Minus that one. but your story still stands if you take that bit out yeah which will do obviously yeah i i still think that there's there's good dollars still in the bally williams remakes but cgc it's it's their business model they've probably looked at it and gone it we're just it's so much easier for us to just do an original theme or maybe because capcom isn't bally williams which is now owned by that other company, whoever owns the asset. So maybe it's easier to do. I don't know. It's an interesting thing. It is. So yeah, but Big Bang Bar, you know, it still goes for a lot of money. Like, you know, upwards of 20 grand. It is a very expensive game, but it was for its rarity. That's really what it is. Yeah, because I've heard that Capcoms, they're very, very risky to own because if specific things go, that's it. There's no replacement, so you You have to do the board work yourself to try and fix it. And keep it in good condition, because if you break a ramp, you'll have to get a specific mold. Which I wonder if that's why, if maybe there's less out there of the other titles, if they've been, I mean, I don't know this, if they've been cannibalized to keep these other rare titles alive. Like if you have a big main bar and the MPU goes or something like that, and then you're like, oh, well, I could use one from Airborne. or something. I have no idea. Because I know they do that on other machines. They'll be like, oh, well, we use our Popeye's boards for keeping good games alive. I've certainly heard multiple people say that. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Same. Speaking of rare expensive items... Well, it can't be this, right? I mean, I'm pretty sure... Isn't that guy still asking for this? So, it can't be here. I'm talking about the Star Wars topper. exactly yeah so it has been announced this week that the star wars topper is now available i mean the main story here is what is that dude gonna do like what is gonna be the first comment now where's the sort of where's the topper right okay i get it i get it well he probably probably his first comment is gonna be the same comment that everybody said which was are you kidding me with that price yeah i mean it's expensive but it's also licensed and that's what you get this is why it took so long okay so this is why you i know you've read the show notes because i try to get a bit of perspective here because the the response i i i messaged somebody the other day i think in my time when i've certainly been reporting on pinball which is you know over two years and since i've come back into the hobby i think this star wars topper would be probably the most negative response I've personally seen to a pinball announcement. Did you read everything with the Star Wars Home Edition? Yeah. I think this is worse. People lost their crap with that too. I mean, I can't say specifically that I've read everything. All the responses that people have had where they go, oh, what was the other one? Supreme, you know, all that kind of stuff. With those, they had those people that were sort of supporting it. This one, I've only seen negativity. Now, I'm very independent because A, I don't have a Star Wars, so I'm not in the market, and B, I'm not a topper guy. What this says to me at $750 plus shipping is it's an expensive topper. $750 is a lot of money, and a lot of people have been saying, oh, you can buy a pinball machine for that. Yeah, sure, you can, but you can also buy a car for the price of a Rolex. You know what I mean? So it's what's important to you. They are limiting this to 500 units. So all up, they're making $375,000 in total revenue from this. So if you think about how much margin's in that, let's say there's $200. Whoever's doing this is not making a shitload of money from this. No. And there's licensing. So that was kind of my point, is to say I know it's expensive, and people are very angry about it, and I totally get it. I totally understand it because it's been delayed so long for it to finally be released, and then you've got that price tag on it. People are just like, fuck off. Yeah. I mean, is that what everyone's complaining about, purely the price? The price. And people are saying, well, you know, you've got this little R2D2 unit. Sure, it probably turns and beep, boop, beep, bop, whatever it does. That was my impersonation. Solid. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean, I think you nailed it. that yeah thank you so i think people are looking at that saying 750 for something i could make for 50 that honestly almost like the direct quote people are saying if you look at the parts it's probably 100 bucks at most well the thing i'll say to that is you've also got to make a topper that works constantly and you've probably got to pay a shitload in licensing on that because it's considered a toy it probably comes under a slightly different licensing model because it's a toy so it probably goes to the toy division of lucasarts or disney whoever owns them now so i just i don't think that people are making money out of this i think the price is up there for a reason i totally understand why people are pitchforks and and tortures at this because it really is so pricey for something that we've been waiting for so long that has that plastic mold and the top of r2d2's head so i can i'm in the middle on it when i say i totally get why people are angry but nobody's really making a lot of money off this they're not trying to rip people off this is probably just what it costs yeah i mean um i mean i haven't watched and read all the all the stuff from it i've heard about it and like you said you mentioned it i mean i don't know what people were expecting because, you know, this is the same thing that people were saying when the game came out. They looked at the game and said, where's the money? Why does this game cost this, but where are the toys? But yet it costs the same. It's because the game itself costs way more because of the license. So, you know, you take whatever the topper price is and you add another 30% on top of it or whatever it is, and that's just what it costs to make these things. And that might be part of the thing of how long it's taken us to get out there, because I'm sure Stern has been trying to be like, well, what can we what can we, you know, what would our margin be so we can actually sell enough of these? Like, how much, how little can we take to actually make this even worth it for us? And I'm sure they probably negotiate with them of being like, you know, we can't, you know, it's not possible for us to you know, pay this much per unit and still sell them, you know, and I'm sure Lucas is just like, well, too bad, that's what it is or whatever. I also think the price is probably going up because Stern are probably looking at it, or the company that's making this saying, somebody has just spent two years constantly negotiating with LucasArts on the license with this. We've got to recover their cost as well. So therefore the price is going up. I don't know. But the other point I wanted to make is, if you think about the Medieval Madness remake with the announcement that it's got a topper coming out and also, you know, you can get the extra large display. The topper for Medieval Madness is $600, $599. So that's a lot of dollars as well. If you wanted the extra large display on your Medieval Madness, it's $650. So if you've got those two together, you know, you're already way over the cost of the topper. It comes back to what is important to you, what is valuable. If you think $650, $750 is too expensive, don't get it. If you think, oh, I can stretch myself, get it. Or if you look at it and go, $750, I cough $750 US, then go get it. And again, it's limited. It's for collectors. It's people who, that's what they want. They want their plaque on their topper and blah, blah, blah. And I mean, I haven't seen, I don't know, has there been video? Has there been anything talking about exactly what this is going to do? Because all I've seen is just pictures and saying, here's the topper. No, I've seen video footage of it as well. It's, you know, it's like the Dalek on, you know, on Doctor Who. It just sort of turns around and it beeps and there's some light. So does it interact with what's going on or is it just randomly? I haven't seen that. So it's not like the Black Knight topper, which we believe follows the ball. It's not as impressive as that. And speaking of that, what does that cost? Do we know pricing on that? I can't remember. No. The pricing probably is out. I just haven't seen it, though I can pretty much go on to Stern right now. Yeah because I would assume that that got to be close to that price And if it not it probably I have to guess it close to that And then it just a matter of that is not a license and this is a license So add on 20% or whatever. And that's how you get this. Granted, that's a lot more mechanically impressive. So that costs a lot more to make, but they are working underneath their own margins. So, you know, if the thing costs 500 to make, they can control that stuff a lot more and not send 30% off the top already just gone or whatever however that works. I'm still looking. I can see the Monsters topper is $425. Is that molded or is that like plastics? That's another topper I haven't actually seen. Listening to last week's episode the toppers came up and people keep forgetting and I always remember, people keep forgetting about the Game of Thrones topper. Yeah, that's right because we forgot about it. Because that's the big, like, that was, in my book, the first big topper. Like, that was a mechanical moving topper that the wings had flapped its wings and then plus the sigils, you know, went in the playfield. Well, as I said, I had that topper on my Gamma Thrones when I had it. I think I forget it for a reason because the movement on it is really a bit lame. I imagine it's the same as what's on the game itself for the... Yeah, it's not, It's not too dissimilar, just bigger. I don't know. If you want it, buy it. If you don't, move it on. Yeah. It doesn't affect us at all. Plus, it's limited to 500, but how many do we think Star Wars have been sold? That's a really interesting point, isn't it? Thousands, right, you'd think? Well, they had... Oh, how many limited editions did they have? Was it limited to 500? That makes sense. I, I, I, they are still, you know, I don't think they're selling Star Wars limited editions, but they probably did sell out of it and some premiums and some pros. Yeah. Now even more with the new art. Are they going to sell 500? Is that what we're sort of saying? I think they're going to. Yeah, they probably will. Because you figure that's, there must be, I don't know, 3,000 of them maybe out there and all of the different editions plus the new editions, maybe even more. I mean, that's the weird thing. that we really have zero clue how many certain machines are out there. So it's like this is just a complete guess. So I guess you could just go – I mean, really, you could just go on stuff like this where you just go, it's a topper. It's limited to 500. So you got to figure that's got maybe 10% of what exists maybe. They think that that is the market that would be able to afford something like that. But the fact that they picked 500 units to me says they know they're definitely going to sell 500 units. yeah i wonder why it is limited whether that is just to create demand or whether they've just like we've only got a license for 500 of these that maybe it's or maybe they're just gone we just want to get rid of these we just want to be done from the nightmare that is getting this out to market yeah and i'm sure that probably this like how we got to here with the pricing and what it looks like and all this i'm sure they've regret every second of it yeah they've just been stuck in it and it's not something they can just go yeah, it didn't work out and we didn't think that you guys would be able to afford it and it didn't meet our expectations so we just stopped. That wouldn't be an acceptable thing to all these people who are screaming for this topper. They had to do it no matter what. It's just kind of that's how you get here and they go well, this is what we do and we're going to cut our losses and I imagine, like you said, the margin on this has got to be just pretty small to make sure they get out there They can wash their hands of it and move on. Yeah. I think you're absolutely right. I think they're looking at it going, let's just move this on because this has been painful and we'll probably get some flack for it, but it's best to just move it on. Yeah. And probably I wouldn't be surprised that Stranger Things or whatever gets announced pretty soon to just make this all like it never happened. you know kind of like other things you know people dump bad news on fridays because no one's paying attention or then something comes up and then they just it gets washed out of the news cycle so i imagine something's going to pop up that this is just going to be a non-issue and people are going to forget about it yeah i hope so well again i i do worry about star wars topper guy and what that was my first concern in his life i mean that's why i was mentioning you you didn't you weren't even following and i'm like that was the first i'm like what is he gonna do like Like, he can't even do Ghostbusters now. So, like, what's left? I don't know. Is he going to be the one screaming on the mountain saying, Munster's cold? I need Munster's cold. Wheel of Fortune code? Wheel of Fortune? There you go. Yeah, we're going to have to bring that one out. Get some, you know, Striker Extreme vault or something. So, just as a side note, because I know we talked about Avatar before. You have mentioned a couple of times now that you think that they should do an Avatar vault. I was just going to bring that up. I think they should. Like you said, the layout, there's nothing wrong with the layout. It's a good layout. You fix some of the code. You add to the code. And I think that it's totally up to them. They could literally release kind of the same game. Again, they're so in bed with Disney. They work so well with Disney. So I think, you know, Disney owning Avatar, that they'd work with them. Like, imagine that game. You take that game as it is. You update the mechs. You know, you get more reliable magnets and all that stuff that they do with all the vaults. You put in it. You flush through the code a little. Add a little on the back end. And then you put the LCD on with, you know, the same stuff from the game, but LCD, you know, graphics and everything. And so you could just do that. and I think it would sell well. Or you could just add on the other movies. And then just do an add, you know, because, I mean, there's four other movies coming, so you could just, you know, add a movie onto it and then put the first two together in a package and then do it later. I just, it's just, that game gets a lot of crap. I've never understood why that game is just, people look at that game as absolute crap while Iron Man is, you know, right next to it and everyone thinks that that's, like, the greatest thing since sliced bread. I mean, it's a better game, but it's not so much better. Because I see the price of avatars is ridiculous. I don't understand why that's such a lowly thought of game. It has great sound. It has some of the best custom sound in it since, I don't know, Lord of the Rings. I mean, like the quit shaking my game guy does a great job. And I'm soon jackpot! Yeah, and Spider-Man, just like in Spider-Man. That was back in the heyday of getting really good voice acting and custom speech. when you could afford it, when they were going for the cash. So the other thing about Avatar as well is that it only came out as a pro and a limited edition. There was 250 limited editions. And what it's got, really, that I can remember for the LE is the amp suit itself moves better. Like, it's more of an animatronic type thing. It falls down. It falls down. And it's got a better, I think it's got a better link thing. It opens and closes. It opens and closes, yes. That's right. And it's got a Navi bowl. Yes, which is the worst. I look at Avatar as literally the worst LE that's ever been made. Or at least that feature is the worst. Literally, we're going to put a ball in the trough, and when that ball comes out randomly, 2X everything. Whee! Who thought that was a good idea? In today's terms, it's just so crazy. And I've never even seen an LE. Have you seen an Ellie? I've seen the pros that had that randomly they put one in there. Yeah, yeah, yeah. No, I actually streamed the Ellie, oh, God, probably over a year ago. Because everyone knows it's one of my favorite games. And I think I've got an affinity towards it because I love the film. So I love just being in an environment. Also, it was the game that got me back into pinball. And you have good taste. Well, perhaps that's the first time anyone's ever said that. But yeah, just with the Na'vi ball, yeah, it's crazy. But if you think about how to make a game stand out from the pro, hey, stick a Na'vi ball in it and make it two times. That still makes it a bit special. A lot of people don't even know the LE that has the Na'vi ball. And for those people that don't know, the Na'vi ball is like, in fact, it's exactly the same as the Powerball in Twilight Zone. It's a ceramic ball, so it doesn't mess around with the magnets, and it's a lot faster. It's fun, but rules-wise, it's a bit crazy. And in fact, in tournaments, you've got to take it out because it's just so randomized. But, you know, they could, as you said, like every time they've done a vault, they've done an update on code. So they could, the reason why I brought up the Pro and LE, because they never did a premium, and vaults are never the limited edition. No, and I think that's, like you said, that's perfect to release a premium for it. And I think that's exactly the same thing they should do for Tron. They should make a premium for Tron. It's like you get the stuff from the LE, and it's not an LE. It's not numbered. You know, it's not Chrome and all the various things that the LE has. But features-wise, it's the same. You know, and you could easily, you could still get the light ramps and the drop targets and everything else. and I think that they should do that for games that back in the day that didn't have premiums that they feel can still be viable in the market and could use an update. I think that they should do stuff like that because it's an easy way to just add to a game and still get it out there but not still piss off the people with these LEs that at the time they had no idea that they'd ever make these things again. Or maybe they just do a whole different release. Like, you could just put it, like, same thing with Tron, just like Avatar or Tron, put an LCD on either of those, and those games would be crazy. A new sound system on Tron, oh, so good. And even on Avatar, the sound on Avatar is great. The music on Avatar is great. Yeah. Avatar's got good, it's got relatively good art as well. I mean, it's that sort of photorealistic at the time. Tron could definitely do with new art. Do you know what I just realized? Because I was just looking up some information about Avatar, and it effectively on IPDB said that the game was shipped on August 27, 2010. And I just thought to myself, oh my God, is that movie 10 years old? And it still holds up if you watch it because it was so technologically advanced for its time that it still holds up. I'm just kind of like, I can't believe it just happened right now at this moment. I've just kind of gone, wow, has that been really 10 years since that movie came out? That's a really long time ago. I do know that obviously the next three movies are being released. I think 2021 is Avatar 2, and then there'll be, I think, 2023 is Avatar 3, because I think they're filming two and three at the same time, and then they'll do four, which comes out in 2025. I'm pretty sure there's four of them coming. Four new ones. There probably is. But let's just, I really worry that they'll matrix this, you know what I mean, where the sequels will ruin the experience of the first. Maybe, but I don't know. there's just something I really trust James Cameron because like even, even when he comes back and revisit his franchise, I don't know if you've, if you're a big fan of the Terminator franchise. Yeah. I liked the first two. Yep. So then you, did you see the other ones and just not like them? Cause I mean, there are three is okay. The rest, I watched them. I, you know, I watched them and I came out of the movie thinking, yeah, that was fun to watch, but I have no need to ever see it again. Yeah. like salvation was terrible genesis was fine but the new one that just came out that cameron came back on was exceptional like it is by far the the second best movie in the franchise it's pretty close to judgment day i think like it's really really good and unfortunately you know where that's just they've crapped the the franchises put out such crap since then the people have given up on the franchise and assumed it's bad like they did the last few movies so like nobody went and art, which is a crime because it was really, really good. And he doesn't put out many movies, so all of his energy is into these things. So I'm hopeful that they're going to be good because I think that the universe is interesting. It's cool. The message that is embedded in those movies, in that movie, is important. And I hope it's good. Yeah, I do. We'll find out soon enough. All right, so a couple of things to round out the news. Finally, after years of waiting, the super awesome Pinball Show is now out. So this is the podcast or show. I think they're trying to move away from the framework of a podcast. So this is Christopher Franchi, Ed Van Der Veen, and Chris Redline, Dr. Pin. So I've listened to probably about halfway through their first episode. I'm going to link it in the show notes. Please, guys, go and listen to it. It's a lot of fun. What really stands out is the production quality. So if you remember, we started the podcast head-to-head because Pinheads, the other Australian podcast, they stopped recording. But Pinheads at the time was known for the best production quality of a podcast, not just the audio quality from their microphones, but a lot of the stingers and music and intros and outros and all that kind of stuff because they used to record in a radio station. They had access to the studios. They had access to all the equipment. So it was production quality to the max. This is just like that. So listen to it, guys. I love to check that out. Yes, please do. The other thing, we had, I think it might have even been on episode four or five, One of the very early episodes of Head to Head, we had Mick and Dion from the Pinball Party Bus. And we talked about the genesis of it and what they were doing. And they've traveled around the world talking about the Pinball Party Bus. And this week they announced that they're shutting down. They've closed operations. What is the Pinball Party Bus? Okay. So it was a bus. I know. I get that. Stop me if I'm going too fast here. Now, I'm going to – was there a party on this bus? And did it involve pinball? All of those things. So it was a bus. It was like – I think it was like an 80s kind of Volvo bus. And they put – I want to say four machines on the bus, and they sort of bolted them down and I think even also bolted them to the ceiling as well. I can't remember the details. And if I remember, I think there might have been Jurassic Park. I want to say Adam's family and maybe the Simpsons, maybe Simpsons Pinball Party as well. I can't remember. And what they would do with this bus is it wasn't like you would get on the bus and then the bus would drive around as you're playing pinball. That's not the point of it. The point of it was this bus would drive to your place and plug a power cord into it and you would play pinball machines at your party. Seems like a cool concept. It was very cool and it was very successful, But they've decided to shut down now, I think, just under three years. So I just wanted to give a big shout out to Mick and Dion, in particular Dion, who's having his 21st birthday today, which is Saturday. So well done, guys, and appreciate all you've done. They became ambassadors for pinball throughout Australia. They used to go to a lot of trade shows, so like home shows and things like that. You would have the Pinball Party bus there. So it was really cool. Yeah, that sounds like a cool concept. The next thing I want to talk about, I've actually labeled this in the show notes, this week in trademarks. Because what actually was announced this week was that apparently the trademark for Rick and Morty as a pinball machine has been granted. So notice of allowance has been issued, which is very exciting because the fourth season has just started. and it's every bit as awesome as the previous three seasons. So good to see they're true to form. And a lot of people have been asking for Rick and Morty Pinball. What do you think? I know people love it. I've seen it in memes all over the place. I have not personally seen it, but based on what everyone says and the people who love it, I assume it is awesome. Just watch it. I think it's on Netflix. So just watch it. It's a bit of a polarizing show. A lot of people watch the first episode and go, I just don't get it. It's crass. It's juvenile. All the things we love. Hello. It's kind of like SpongeBob. I mean, SpongeBob is a very sneaky adult show. Yeah, it is. It's a dirtier version of that. Like, it's a bit more gratuitous. So I hope that they release it as a people machine. This would make a great adult title. And also, it's not a band. it's not a hbo tv series or a movie or a superhero it's just something that's a little bit less of center it is that's it's a little fresh it is so but whilst i was in the the mood of trademarks and i was trying to just put the show notes together i did a bit of searching on my own one of the things i did was i looked at the trademarks that american pimple has which we know the four names they put up are Sherlock Holmes, Valkyries, Robin Hood and Poker Run. But what you can do is when you look at these trademarks, you can have a look at the status. And I noticed something really interesting today. And that is three out of the four trademarks have been labeled as abandoned, failure to respond or late response, Meaning, nothing's been done since they applied, and therefore, considerate, they don't need to renew. But, to be fair, same thing with Oktoberfest, which clearly got made. Because they've already made Oktoberfest, right? So that's it, it's done. Okay, so it got updated on that date? Well, probably, but it's just, Oktoberfest has been done, so there's nothing more to do. We did it, moving on. Of these four that were all registered at the same date, Sherlock Holmes, Valkyries and Robin Hood have a status of abandoned, whereas Poker Run says notice of allowance issued. I'm surprised that that's even a trademark when I've been told what it is. How is that trademarkable? I don't know. And this notice happened on, I think, maybe the 9th of July, depending on – it's either 9th of July or 7th of September, depending on which part of the world you're in. I think what it means is that some movement has happened at that time. I'm not saying it means that they're doing Poker Run. I don't know much about Poker Run. Webster explained it to me. Because, I mean, the name and what it is don't seem to make much sense together. But, like, what he said, it's actually a car game, or it's a car thing where you're, like, racing to different locations to collect things. Correct. So you're in cars or vehicles, and you've got checkpoints that you need to get to. And I believe there's, like, clues that you get. or I think with this, with Poker Run, you get a card at each location and then at the end you've got to have the best poker hand at the end. Yeah, which I don't know how it's a pinball machine, but sure. Yeah. So, okay. Anyway, I'm just saying that that's what I noticed today. That was this week in trademarks. I mean, we're going to find out very soon, right? I mean, that game's, what, that's third game? Third game is pretty eminent at this point. Correct. Right? so it should be and they haven't started working on the fourth yet or at least not art wise well we talked about that last week so i know the end of it anyway well we have to talk about things okay so under sort of i guess social media watch and stuff is um one thing that's really interesting and obviously it's saturday here which means it's friday in the rest of the world i'm not gonna do i'm not gonna do it because no no no i know what you're asking for i'm not gonna do it it's not nice it's not cool but josh is gonna be first all i wanted to talk about was uh just the fact that it's saturday here so therefore it's friday there and it's going to be monday by the time you get this but the crazy amount of black friday deals just what you got the reason i'm bringing this was black friday has never really been a huge thing in australia in fact we think about black friday as a day where we had massive bushfires and people lost their homes that's what we refer it was black friday and now you've got black friday sales so in australia we're kind of like this is all in a bit bad taste well i guess you guys have been having black friday for for many many years well to be fair you guys are a lot more sane than us well that is probably also true it's not a healthy thing we do over here like the black friday people die on black friday so it's well so maybe it has an appropriate name um but yeah just lots of sales and and i saw here i think even AMD were, which is amusement machine distributors, they are the distributor for Stern. I think they were even having Black Knight on sale as well. Yeah, most distributors do stuff like Amusement Star. Joe over there, he always has Black Friday sales on pinball machines too. Everyone does it. And I think I saw also that Mr. Pinball, who's the distributor of everything else, is also giving away New Inbox Houdini for $10,000, a saving of $3,000 with Shaker, Knocker, Magic Glass, and Art Blades. So, jeez. That game cost $1,300. How much was that? $13,000. Australian dollars, which is $20 over there. I was going to say, I was confused. I'm like, what? Yeah. That's a great game. I really like that game That game doesn get enough I know The Callouts is obviously what you talking about I still haven heard that because there no Houdinis here There literally one Houdini that I know of in New Robert Englunds and it's at Dave and Steve's house here, and they just never open their home on a weekend when I can go there. Come on, guys. It kills me. I want to play that game so bad. I love that game. Yeah. I actually quite enjoy it as well. So there you go. Joe, speaking of Rumors Oh I heard a rumor See, at least you get that one See, production What we were talking about, see Exactly right, so you know what, Christopher Franchi I can do that stuff as well So the rumor that we had Was that apparently Stern Are going to be moving next year What? Had you heard this? Apparently, their factory's going to move No way. Why would they move? Let's speculate whilst we're in rumor mode. Why would they need to move? Are you messing with me? Is that really a thing? It's a rumor. That's what I've heard. They just moved into that place. I would say that probably happened, I want to say, three or four years ago, probably. Really? It's been that long? Holy crap. I think it's been that long. And, you know, people have got to move for reasons, either downsizing or upsizing. What do you think the case would be here? I'm pretty sure they're upsizing. I would say they're probably upsizing as well. Yeah. That's awesome. It's just a rumor at this stage. I hope it's true. Did you not hear this? Okay, this is now my new favorite segment. You know what? Normally I would just throw them into conversation, but now I've got a stinger for it. I'm doing it. Anyway. Okay, well, let's see if your head's in the game when it comes to tipping the top 100. Here we go. Hey, Google, pick a number between 1 and 100. Crap, where is it? There we go. Refresh. Here's a random number, 14. Star Trek. Star Trek. Oh, the top is a mess. Lord of the Rings is down to ETH. What the? Okay. Jurassic Park is now at four. Okay. Twilight Zone is down to five. Why is Iron Maiden all of a sudden in sixth? I'm so confused. Yeah, Pirates is down to seven. That's just the nature of the top ten on Pinside. I mean, we've been doing this segment, like going to the top 100 for a long time. It always just moves up and down. Yeah. Fake news. All right. Star Trek. So whilst you're doing your research, let me just talk just very briefly about Star Trek. We should just do it the same way that we did when Keith did it, where you can just talk and then I can tell you why you're wrong. Because I think you should have this pretty good. No, I am not. Because remember, you're more of a tournament player than me. So really what I'm wanting to know from you is not all the rules of the game, because I can go through all the rules of the game. the the question to you is as a tournament player if you come up to a star trek what is your strategy to play star trek and to win in a tournament so everyone knows that star trek is my favorite game i it was my first new inbox i have blinged it to the max i have played it more than any other game in the world easily and and i love it i think that layout is one of the if not the best layout that Steve Ritchie has done some people have said it's not necessarily innovative and i would concur it's probably not innovative but as far as a flow game as far as you know having that that side warp ramp which is just so satisfying when you can repeat it which i think eight or nine is my top concurrent loops that I've been able to do from the warp ramp. The way it feeds you lights and sound and just information is great. The rules, the modes themselves, level one modes are very yawny. The alternate missions are good, but that's its biggest criticism is that people sort of say, well, it's just, it's go for the lit shot mode as opposed to it being go for a certain part of the machine. that's its biggest criticism i guess it's very transformers see in that yeah it is so joe if you are going on star trek in a tournament what is your strategy for winning the game so there's a lot into this because i've outside of maybe lord of the rings i haven't seen a game that gets messed with so much as star trek and not even to even sometimes even more than lord of the rings because I've actually played a Star Trek where Klingon multiball was disabled. Yes. I didn't know that was a thing. So actually, you can check this because you have the game. This is a little homework assignment for you. Can you look to see if that's a setting to disable it, or did they literally go and unhook those three targets? I don't know, but I did play in a tournament where Klingon multiball was disabled. Hmm. There must be a way to do it. Yeah, that's weird. Yeah, so you've seen that. Let's just say it's standard. It hasn't been messed up too much. The rules aren't necessarily set on hard. It's just vanilla Star Trek. So vanilla Star Trek, what I like to do is, so I guess mattering what kind of points you need when you're thinking of this general strategy is, do you need big points or do you need low to medium points? and with this I mean if you're going you need big points then you're probably going to try and do two captain chairs and if you need medium to low points you're just going to probably go for one and most likely that's going to be super ramps because it's probably the one that's worth the most and it's the most versatile you have three different targets you can hit versus if you're going spinner then obviously you're only hitting the spinner and also the spinner's hard to double, or harder than just ramping, and then pop bumpers you can't double at all. So that's probably the least one. So if you're deciding that you need to blow the game up and you need some big points, what I personally do is I go for the spinner and ramp captain modes. So what that means is you have to play the yellow mode, which is Space Jump. You have to play Save the Enterprise, which is the green mode. You have to play Kleon Battle, which is the red mode. And then you have to play Destroy the Drill, which is the teal mode. And then after you've played all four of those, you then can play Prime Directive. And once you're done with Prime Directive, because you've completed two at a time, it will start both captain chairs at the same time which obviously gives you double the point potential of uh if you only did one and obviously this can be done with any combination of them it can be ramps plus bumpers or bumpers plus spinner that's just my specific my particular uh combo that i go with but running two captain chairs at the same time doesn't increase the value of them individually it just means that you've got two objectives happening at the same time correct and And it's just whatever, because the captain chairs are tied to how well you do in the specific three modes that get them. So instead of just playing one captain's chair for one set of modes, you're actually going to get two captain chairs, which are still tied to the values within those three you played, but you're getting one extra cash out, which you wouldn't get normally. So that would be my particular combo that I would go with. I would go ramps plus spinner, because they actually both worked well together, because you can ramp and then hit the spinner, which then it all keeps it doubled, which is important on this game, is to hit things in combos, so you double up your shots. And if the game has a ball save, what you can do is I like to soft plunge and then go for the lock targets on the left, which if you go too early, hooray, you get a skill shot because you hit the warp ramp. And if it's hard to go late if you're aiming towards the top lock targets. But that's what you should do if you have a ball save. Really, even if you don't have a ball save, that multiball is so important to doing well in the game. It's worth taking the shots at it. And then I go save the Enterprise because save the Enterprise with the are they way team modes? Is that what they're referred to as? Yes. So their way team mode on Save the Enterprise is hitting the warp ramp, which, granted, in competition, mattering how it's set, can be dangerous if the feed back from the warp ramp goes to the right outline without being able to save it. So if there's no rubber on that side, maybe you don't necessarily want to do that. But I always go for it because it's worth so many points. I've had 30 million save the enterprises before if you can hit the warp ramp. Because once you hit it via the left and then you start hitting the ramp, the warp ramp is always doubled. So that can add up very quickly. And then as far as then after that, I tend to play space jump. And that pretty much, I think you have to hit four shots before starting the away team, which then lights up the center for a cash out. You can actually do the away team straight away after one shot. You can, but I think that if you hit four shots and then do it, you'll get a gold medal. That's correct. That's correct. Versus if you just do it right away, I think it gives you a bronze. Yep. So just to explain to people, so the six modes that we talked about, Prime, Directive, Space, Jump, Save the Enterprise, Zero, Destroy the Drill, and Klingon Battle, if you hit one of the shots, it then lights the away team, which is under the upper right flipper, which gives you these, they call them away missions, and that's when these modes become specific to the play field. And as we say with Save the Enterprise, it means that the warp ramp is now lit. And with Space Jump, it's the vengeance target effectively, which will shut off that mode. So what you're saying is with this one is you want to build up the value with regular yellow shots, then do the away team, and then shut it off with that one final shot. Correct. Why don't you mention what the other super modes are for the other ones? Oh, okay. Because I only really, if I'm going for Kaiboshi Maru, I will just shut down Space Jump straight away, just because I want to move through the modes quickly. But I'll explain. So Prime Directive, the away team missions for that are the top three lanes, which are Beam Me Up. I usually start with Prime Directive, because I'm usually in tournament, I'm going for quick points rather than the long game. And also because those lanes are accessible via the orbits and they shut up the gate so they always go down the beam me up lanes. Which is important to note because you do not want to play a prime directive during Vengeance Multiball because they will not go in the top lanes. That's correct. So the reason why I go prime directive first is because you can usually finish that at about a 15 mil mark just by hitting orbits. And in this game, the orbits are pretty safe. And, you know, then they're going into the pops and it prolongs your game as well. So I usually do go prime directive. Space Jump, as we talked about, that's the vengeance shot up the middle. Save the Enterprise, you talked about the warp ramp. Nero is the small stand-ups. I think there's six of them, which once you complete those, that lights a black hole for your away team, you get dark matter. So it lights those little stand-ups. The more you complete them all, it then resets and the value goes up. Destroy the Drill is Spinner, and Klingon Battle is the Alpha Quadrant and Beta Quadrant ramps, the left and right ramp. They both light at first, but then once you get one, it then alternates the ramps. So that one's particularly good for a multiball as well because you are ultimately shooting those ramps for jackpots. Absolutely. Good job. With that all said, so then, yeah, so I go, I tend to go save, although your prime directive, if you're going for smaller points, it is completely reasonable to start with that and then drill down and do your yellow, then your save your enterprise. If you're just going for one mode or, you know, you could do the bottom left corner, the bottom right corner and do both of them at the same time, too. So that doesn't actually prevent you from going that strategy. But yeah, the only note is that is obviously do not play that during Vengeance because during Vengeance it always plunges around so you won't actually be able to get those upper lanes because it also even keeps that gate open when you're hitting combos, so then you just never can get it up there. I learned that the hard way in a tournament once. And actually, I think Cleon also plunges around. So I'm not sure that that's a good mode to have during multiball at all. Do you know if that's true? no i'm i'm usually going for probably the same as you by the time i'm going for multiball i'm usually into my third mode uh and i'll usually do save the enterprise for that just because it's got a lot of shots as well um i try not to bring in destroy the drill or cling on battle effectively late but well yeah because cleon battle works well with vengeance if you're advancing to the towards the end of vengeance via the ramps which you can do but then eventually they turn off so that's a pretty good one for that and like you mentioned the ones that have everything lit are really good for cleon multiball which would be good like for um prime directive or like you mentioned save the enterprise as long as you don't get the super mode that wouldn't be as useful so yeah so that's Additionally, what you're going to be doing, one completion of the three green lock targets will light both of your locks. So you can then collect each of them for a lock, and that'll get you to two, which then will require you to complete the bank again, which will light your lock via the left scoop. And if you say maybe you're having issues shooting that scoop, If you complete the bank again for a third time, it'll light the lock and then turn off that bank and light the lock in both positions if you're really having issues hitting whichever one it lights. I'm pretty sure it always lights the left first for the final one. I think you're correct. Yep. So that's that multiball, and within that multiball, it's hit every shot twice. It's a very simple multiball. and then once you hit every shot twice, it'll start a strobing double and then it'll put a super on the warp ramp, which I think I've only gotten to the super once or twice. That's a very hard multiball to get through because the warp ramp is always the last one you need. And vengeance multiball? In vengeance multiball, I believe you have to hit the vengeance five times. That will open it up and then you can throw it in there for vengeance multiball. Another useful thing that you can do, I've seen some people do it, is during multiball, I mean, during ball save, they'll actually pound those right stand-ups on the right. And if you complete that set, it'll give you three punch-its, which will give you three hits on the vengeance. So that is potentially a safer way to do it, especially if you can get it done in ball save. And if you happen to see there's maybe one stand-up left, and it's the top one, might be worth taking a pot shot at it so that you don't have to... Because obviously that is a dangerous shot, but it's not as dangerous as the drop target straight up the middle. Correct. So also on that, once you've destroyed the vengeance, it then effectively opens up victory laps. So all the main shots are lit white, I believe. Correct. And you get them all. And it's usually always the warp ramp for me that's always the last one to get. Once you've completed all those shots, it then relights all the major shots again. So you've just got to cycle through them. Yep. and then that multiball pretty much, you can hit the ramps to advance hits on the Vengeance until almost halfway through, then you're going to have to actually hit the Vengeance itself or use smart missiles to do so. And the most important thing to know about this mode is that you'll know that you have the last shot lit if there's obviously a little sliver on the health of it, But also, if you have punch-ups and they've now disappeared, that means they can't be used anymore, which means that the kill shot is ready. And it's very important to hit a ramp and then hit the kill shot. It tends to be you hit the left ramp and then hit the right. Correct. So then instead of 5 million, you get 10 million, which is obviously a big deal. So you want to make sure you do that if you can. and I guess while we're on vengeance we can start going through the other vengeance modes so then if you hit vengeance and I think another five times you'll open it up to do vengeance scoring which is a hurry up I think it starts at 1.5 million and quickly counts down you hit it it'll lock it in and reset so you can hit that you think you have to hit five times and it'll light you an extra ball that is really the only reason to play that yeah yeah you you kind of would avoid it, mainly because that shot has a magnet or whatever it is at the back, a kicker at the back, that is kicking that ball right back at you. So if you go to Star Trek and you know that it kicks it back safely, then do it. Otherwise, if the ball is wild, avoid it because it's sure, it's points, but there's probably other things you should be doing. Yeah, I honestly think that there's a little missed opportunity with that mode, that they could have made it better with just every time you hit a hurry up, it doubles it and then starts another hurry up from that doubled thing to actually make it so people actually go after it. So it's worth points because really, if it's in tournament mode, you don't want to play it and you never progress past it because the extra ball is not worth that much. I think it's two point five, I think, in this. Is that right? I can't remember the values of the points, but yeah, sure. Why not? Yeah. So it's not it's not a huge thing. It's not worth the risk, certainly. That's correct. Whatever it is. So then you have that. And then you have the third one, which is the third one is actually a very lucrative mode. So what that is, it starts off kind of like vengeance scoring where you have to hit it five times. And when you hit it, it screams back at you via the kicker. And then once you get, I think you hit it five times or the fourth time, and then it goes into sudden death for a timed period. I think it's five seconds or something like that where the drop target will come back up and if you hit that drop target you will get 10% of your score which can be massive no matter what your score is and also if you combo that you will get 20% of your score which is obviously far more massive and if you happen to get your double scoring via getting to warp 9 and it's even more massive yeah so yeah um that's actually a it's a mode that most people don't think uh to go for or to even bother with um and it's a pretty most people get to it to be honest do you think a lot of people go go past the second one and play it because a lot of people won't even i just don't think people get to it because it is the third one and there's so much that you're doing in this game besides doing the vengeance modes that I think it's game over before you even get a chance to start the third one. True, but I kind of look at it almost like Little Deadpool in Deadpool that if you go for it, you can easily progress through them because you're going to be getting punched throughout the game. It's just going to happen, and then you tend to be able to open up. And one thing to note is that if you want to progress to the third, all you have to do is start vengeance scoring and then trap up. and then it goes away and you can forget it ever happened. Well, actually, sorry. And that's our point because you reminded me by saying Little Deadpool because I think Little Deadpool, the first mode, it borrowed its rules from this. And what we're saying is that with the first one, which is Vengeance multiball, you will lock a ball up there, the magnet will hold it, and then it will pop out another ball. You've then got to hit that second ball that comes out into the Vengeance within a certain, I don't know how many seconds it is, maybe 10 seconds, to make it a three-ball multiball. If you don't, the ball will just come out, and it's a two-ball multiball. And you don't get a ball save. Yes, correct. Extra dicky. I've never used it. Yeah. So. Yeah, because if you lock it out, when it gives a new ball, it resets and gives you a brand-new ball save. But if it just drops it, the ball save's gone. Yes, there you go. And here's another quirky thing about Vengeance as well. And I'll just go back a second, right? because one of the things that I've seen, the new players in particular, people that are just not really that familiar with this, one of the biggest traps they fall into is when they've completed a mode, because level one modes are timed, and I think you get, I don't know, maybe 45 seconds, but then via the black hole that will add time in modes. Once people have finished with a mode, they'll then just be shooting around the play field where nothing's lit, getting no points not realizing you've actually got to start your next mode and for those people that are doing this just if you're if you see the mission start on the left which is a blue arrow and the away team on the right which is a blue arrow lit that's telling you that you need to start a new mode also on that when you in level one modes uh once the timer run out it will show you all the major shots are lit for that color that you playing in except one shot is strobing a different color as well, and it's worth more points as your final shot. It's double. So there you go. And the thing to note about that is, when you finish all the level one modes, the six of them, you then get to the first mini wizard mode, which is Kaiboshi Maru, and the value of the jackpots that you get, which represent each of those six modes, the value of that will depend on how well you've done in each of those modes. So by getting that last shot, which is doubled, that will, in some part, increase the value of the jackpots in Kaiboshi Maru. It absolutely will. It absolutely does. I can't get over the way you say Kobayashi. You say Kaiboshi. Yep, correct. So good. And I would say I'm correct because I'm in Australia. Yeah. Kaiboshi. Kaiboshi. Also, the other thing to note is if you've got any of the vengeance modes ready to go, so all you've got to do is shoot the ball in, it's lit and it's ready to go, and you drain your ball or you finish a mode, when you start the next ball, you won't automatically go into another mode. It will actually make you do the mission start or the away team. It's called Vengeance Jail. You're locked out. It is Vengeance Jail. So really what you've got to do is just try and start a mode and then start the Vengeance mode as well. Yep. And if you are in the middle of a level one mode or even a level two mode, I believe, and you drain the ball, you will then reincarnate on your next ball within that same mode unless you start an away team mode. and then if you lose the ball during an away team mode, you will then start a fresh mode. Correct. Which works the same kind of way as in like Aerosmithing, those other ones where you get into crank it ups and you die. That's it. Exactly right. Crank it down. So I did mention this before, the black hole. So the vengeance, obviously, people sort of say that that's the Enterprise. It's not. The Enterprise is on, well, I'm looking at the pro here. It's not even on there. On the premium in LA, it's on the right-hand side. but the big, dark, enterprise-looking machine or ship is actually the Vengeance, and we're talking about the shot underneath it, which is where we lock balls and where Vengeance mode starts. Just to the right of it, there is a stand-up target, which is the black hole target. Now, to like that, which is effectively your mystery award, we talked about them before. They're little tiny stand-ups. There's six of them. Think of them like the picks on Metallica. You've got to hit one, two, three. Well, actually, there's five of them, because actually the sixth one is the black hole. But the sixth one is required to be hit. You have to hit the black hole first. Correct. So you've got to light all six of them to then activate black hole. If you're not in a mode, if you're not in multiball, it'll just give you little points and scrappy shit like that. If you're in a mode, generally, it will add time. And if you're a multiball, that is where your add-a-ball is. It's a big thing. Absolutely. So then there's nothing worse than being in a multiball and going, why, oh why, is the last one always the one between the left ramp and the warp ramp that you can't hit on purpose? Correct. Correct. Protected by two big posts. Correct. And so the other thing that Joe talked about before, I'll just elaborate on a little bit, and this is warp ramps. So in a normal game, usually a roundabout hitting warp seven from the warp ramp will give you an extra ball in the vengeance area. If you're as good as mine. Yeah, mine usually starts at about 9.2, right? That's high. So if you set it variable, the quicker you get it, the longer it will take. It'll make it warp 7, 8, 9, 10, whatever it is. When you get to warp 9.1, that is when you get the play field doubled. For 60 seconds. Yeah. When you then continue and get to warp 9.9, a crazy thing happens. Not only do you get the playfield multiplied another time, it also spits out an addable. Very weird. It's really weird, Joe, because it's not a multiball. It's just, hey, I just happen to have two balls. And you would say, oh, well, that's cool because that gives me safety. Well, it gives you a ball save. Sure, that's fine. but you've then got two balls that you're trying to manage whilst you're playing the game so it can be a bit of a hindrance the main point to note is that 9.1 and 9.9 with the playful multiplier is really important for you to know when it's about to happen to know when to bring it in so if it's just before a multiball or what i try to do and i have done this once whereas i've started it just before Kobayashi. There you go. Kobayashi Miru. Where you get double the value of the medals. We should probably explain how the medals work. So then when you complete it, I also got double the final completion of Kaibyoshi. Yep. Which is another weird thing that just kind of goes and continues. It's like the Adaball where it's just It's like you finish Kobayashi, and then you're just out of Kobayashi. That's right. Depending on how many balls you've got left, it's like, okay, well, I've got three balls here, and I'm not in anything. Yep. So it's normal play. Yep. Correct. I feel they should have kept going with that. Once you complete it, it just keeps going. It's almost like those victory laps where it opens everything up again, but maybe in the new code. I kind of like it so that it kind of ends because it's different. But it's weird. that's two two two occasions where you're in multiball well you've got multi-balls but you're not in multiball it's kind of it kind of feels really weird true but i mean it gives you a nice opportunity to be able to progress the rest of the game with like you mentioned some safety and one final point if you don't mind me on star trek is level three modes so when we talked about each of those modes when you start them you start them at level one you can then go back and start that same mode again but this time at level two and the the shots are very different and they're worth more points once you've completed that you can then start that same mode a third time for a level three which again it's worth more points and it's harder but when you complete a level three mode you then get a perk for the rest of the game. So, for example, Prime Directive, if you complete level three, you'll then get two times on the left scoop for the game. I think Space Jump is two times right orbit. Save the Enterprise, two times right ramp. Warp. Nero is two times on the left orbit. Destroy the Drill is two times on the warp ramp. Really? Is warp ramp. Yeah. Interesting. I thought that they were tied to where their super modes sent you. No, and Klingon Battle is two times on the left ramp. So the reason why I bring up level three modes is because people, as a strategy, rather than playing all the modes, they will actually go up to a level three, lock in. And I think one of them that people do is they lock in the left orbit. Yeah. Go spinner. And then go spinner. Yeah, correct. Yeah, that's probably the only thing I haven't tried to do in this game, is go three deep on stuff. Well, because I've streamed it a lot, I've done that a number of times just for shits and giggles, just to activate the perks. It's fun. The thing about these modes are the further you go in, like level two and level three, the modes become more interesting, but also harder to do, but more interesting. yeah i wonder how that how um how that works for like well i guess it's if you if you did like three deep on two of them and then you started burrowing deep three deep on a corner it just gives you the like three captain modes in a row for going the for the first one you finish and then the second one you get the next one and there you go well they go star trek it's a great game and I think it's a very good tournament game. I don't think it is. Well, we'll put it out to our special tournament group and see what they think. Yeah, I mean, the main thing, which the reason why I don't think it's a good tournament game is because, one, A, it's not used in tournaments very often, and B, because they have to bastardize it because it just plays too long. Because the great thing about the game and is also the worst thing about the game is the fact that it is a super easy playing game. The ramps are wide open. You play this game, you feel like a god when you get dialed in. But the problem is that you are a really good player. If you don't miss, you'll play it forever. And this game plays extremely long. So that's the one downside of it. True. So you have to set them up tough. yeah and you know when people try and set this thing up tough it just it's like diminishing returns kind of like how lord of the rings uh doesn't tend to get used that often because to make it play a reasonable amount they have to bastardize the game to the point where the game's not fun anymore and i'm kind of seeing that like star trek is starting to get into that place so people have just said okay there's no fun way to put this in a tournament you know i still do see it quite often in tournaments and i don't say tournaments in australia i mean when i'm watching streams of big tournaments over in the u.s you could always distinctively hear like the sound of this star trek the the like the sound effects just cut through you could always tell when there's a star trek in tournament and it's i would say it's probably more often than you think yeah i haven't seen one in like in like big like i haven't seen InDisc or Pinberg or... I mean, I think the last one I saw, one that was big, was Papa when it first came out, and then Yurian just obliterated the thing and got... I watched that game. Yeah, that was... I was there in person to see that. He got to Enterprise Amok, which is the... Well, that's probably one thing, just to note as well. Once you've completed all level one modes, you then get Kaibyoshi? Kobiyoshi? Kobiyoshi Maru. Whatever you feel like. Yep, sure. Kaibyoshi. Then when you complete level two modes, you get Enterprise Amok. Which you should just stop playing as soon as possible. That's what they do in Australia. Yeah, that's what I did. And then once you've completed all level three modes, you then get to the final wizard mode, which is called Five Year Mission. And I have not even seen Kobayashi. I've never seen it. I don't want to see it. I've only seen Amok once. As you know, I got it and drained almost immediately because I was just so freaked out. Well, you've gotten further in the game than I have. oh thank you what's been happening in your week of pinball let's talk about obx because you weren't here last week and i hope it was worth it uh it was it was fun it was an awesome road trip 10 hour drive went down with my friend nick not each way though stephano yes each way it's north carolina that's far okay well that so that'd be like for me driving from melbourne to sydney which i did for the um southern hemisphere pinball championship so yeah it can be done yeah Absolutely. So I went down with him. He was sick the week before and assured me that he was all better. This was not true. So that tournament was qualifying. Friday was 3 to 10, I want to say, and then Saturday was 10 to 9, and that was all the qualifying. and then during Saturday, Classics ran in the middle of qualifying, and then finals were on Sunday. I pretty much, I did decent in qualifying, which I ran into the same thing I've had now, which has become kind of a pattern with me, is that I can get some good games up, and then it just comes down to I just need, you know, this one score. I need one score. I need to improve one of my crap scores. I'd love to hear from other big tournament players if this is a thing or what to do about trying to improve on this, but I spent hours trying to improve these just complete middling scores on my lowest games. I had Beatles and Ghostbusters, and I just couldn't improve my score on those. And the lines were like 20 minutes each, so you didn't get too much time on them. So yeah, I couldn't improve those scores, and then I played in Classics, and I was a little worried that in New York I would be too focused on Classics and not actually be able to qualify in the main. But there was enough time in between with messing with the virtual queues that I was able to jump in and then also play Classics. And Classics, I came in fifth, so I was happy with that. I got some, we had a cool framed poster and some other stuff, so that was cool. And then the rest was just trying to improve these scores and trying to, and just, I throw my head against the wall. I just couldn't improve them. And then literally my last game before the end of qualifying, I was able to put up a big game on Ghostbusters finally. and was able to qualify. I think I qualified 17th, I think, out of 24, something like that. And so that was the stress of the day. And then, of course, I got sick that night. And I only got like three hours of sleep and then went to finals. So where did you end up in this tournament? so finals uh it was best of five i went out in the first round to uh brian o'neill who just moved here recently um and uh i well at least you lost to a nice person i like brian he's great and um yeah and i played well i just didn't play enough there wasn't it's just i wasn't playing well um just that it he played better than me so and i wasn't feeling well so um and then my friend Nick played another round and he got knocked out in game five as well. I promised I'd give him crap because he was on, he was complaining the entire weekend that, you know, this Ghostbusters was, I don't know what was it, it was an LE, and for whatever reason the left ramp was really hard to hit, and he complained the entire weekend about how he couldn't hit the left ramp. So he was player two, the other person had 28 million, he was trapped on the right, and Librarian was running. All he had to do was backhand the right ramp, I mean, backhand the right orbit, he advances. So what does he do? He shoots for the left ramp, goes out of the super jackpot, dies, gets eliminated. I was like, oh, I was watching, he's like, you should have, why didn't you just yell at me? Why didn't you just tell me? I'm like, I can't yell at you. Because I was coaching. Yes, exactly. You got restricted from the building, right? You can't do that. That's actually illegal. Exactly. So, yeah, it was a great tournament. So, look, for me, really, Jurassic Park, so the .95 code came out and I streamed it. And what it's really done, it's added mini wizard modes and it's done a bit of polish. I think that the point really to make about this is that I've now had a week, three streams really, of this game and I am now absolutely loving it. It is just, now that I'm understanding the rules and trying to get inside the head of Keith and what he was doing with the rules framework. It's just an absolute genius game. Isn't it? It is. It's a masterpiece. It's so good. It is so good. And I've still got so much more to explore. Like, you get these artifacts or something. I don't know what they are. Fossils. Fossils. Yeah, that's them. I would imagine that they're like the tomb awards in Iron Maiden that you get for certain things. Anyway, I have worked it out. And I don't want to know yet because I just want to keep exploring this game. It is so fun. Yeah, you have tons of options too. You can, like, there's completely different strategies with the map, which direction you go, what your play style is and what your plan is. So this is what I said on the last stream. And I would encourage people to check out the last stream, mainly because I've got five cameras set up on this machine, including a camera just for the T-Rex, which looks cool. but it's more so that I was saying that with Iron Maiden when it first came out and we interviewed Keith and he was like well there's so many different things that you can do after a while with Iron Maiden I felt that I kept just doing the same thing that I liked with Jurassic Park I think he really has now absolutely nailed the situational gameplay there are so many different things that you can focus on you can either progress them all a little bit at once, or you can focus on one of them, like going through all the different paddocks to get all the different dinosaurs and obviously, you know, use the car to navigate which way you want to go through. You can do T-Rex modes. You can do control room modes. Oh, my God. The paddocks, each of them have benefits that benefit different parts of the game. Yes, perks, yep. And different play styles. Yes. Oh, wow. It's brilliant. It's not even done yet, Maren. I know. It's not even done. I know. It's crazy. It is so good. I was talking about last week saying I reckon it's game of the year. It is easily game of the year. Oh, 100%. It is that good. No chance. It is that good. And also, just a quick shout-out to Skip Natty from Buffalo Pinball. I'm not streaming at a different time, Skip. You changed your time zone. I think you either went into Daylight Savings or went out of Daylight Savings. We've just gone into Daylight Savings. So there's a big time difference now is all I'm saying. So there's that. So for those people, do check out the stream. In Australia, it's 6 p.m. on a Sunday night and 6.30 on a Wednesday night because of work. And speaking of work. So you mean it's going to be a lot earlier coming soon? Well, I reckon I will because I mentioned it last week and it's now being completely announced to everybody at work so I can really talk about it. So I am effectively having a sabbatical at the end of the year. So December 20th is my last day of work, and I'm taking three to six months off. I hope for six months, but three at a minimum. And I'm going to be taking, I would call it a full mental break. An FMB, if you will. I just thought I'd make it. Somebody put that on a shirt. Yes. So that might mean a bit of a break from the podcast as well, Joe. for a period of time. I'm not sure. I need it, guys. I need it. And I know that there's been talk. I think it was Dennis Creasel from the Collected Gamers podcast. He sort of talked about the whole burnout phase. I'm not burnt out by pinball at all. In fact, I love pinball. I'm burnt out from work. Eight years of doing a very stressful job. I am running on empty at the moment. So I just want some time to just completely and utterly recharge and not have to worry about things. And I think, I think, Joe, I think I've earned it. I certainly need it. I can tell you. You call this preventative maintenance. This is preempting any kind of burnout that might possibly come if you don't. Well, I was kind of saying to someone the other day, what it's actually doing is stopping me from going postal, from just going absolutely off my mind with rage because I'm just at that point where it could happen. So I'm taking some time off. Yeah, well, it will be. I will still be streaming through it, but I won't be working and I won't be doing a podcast, I reckon, for probably about a month, guys, after Christmas. So just giving everybody the heads up and also giving your heads up that next week we are going to be starting a competition. Joe? Ooh. I know. And I will come back to you, to everybody with what we're going to have as prizes, but there will be head-to-head swag. There will also be some, we've got some codes to give away for the Williams Pinball Arcade, whatever that one is by Zen. Some Loser Kid ads? Is that part of the prize pool? I don't know. Maybe we can talk to them. Yeah, we probably can. I'm waiting for people to get back to me but we are going to do a very easy competition for everybody where you just write in with any old random shit and then we do a random draw at the end as per last time because we have little confidence in our audience well we just want to make it I just want to engage in people I just want people to send me emails so they can say hi because I replied to everybody's emails you do I see that I know you do as per the last competition Patreon subscribers if you are $3 and above, you will get double entries. So it's so worthwhile going on Patreon and also because that is going to be my only source of income. So go crazy with it, guys. Yeah, we don't want him living on the street, guys. Come on. That's right. Eating out of garbage bins. Sleeping underneath his Star Trek LE. Correct. Using the photons on the side to warm him. Correct. Yeah, the heat from the Pinsteadian fusions that I've got on them. There you go. There you have it. I am so looking forward to just having that time to just get excited about stuff. So thank you very much, Joe. Great to have you back. Great to be back. Awesome. And guys, thank you very much for listening. We will do this all again next week. Thank you for listening. Yes. Bye, guys.