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Ep 70: Modern

Final Round Pinball Podcast·podcast_episode·1h 16m·held·Jul 3, 2023
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Analysis

claude-haiku-4-5-20251001 · $0.034

TL;DR

Hexa Pinball's Space Hunt debuts; hosts debate original themes vs licensed IP, resale timing, and modern design trends.

Summary

Final Round Pinball Podcast Episode 70 covers the announcement of Hexa Pinball's Space Hunt, a new original-themed pinball machine with distinctive pink aesthetics. The hosts discuss the broader landscape of original versus licensed themes in modern pinball, the economics of boutique manufacturers, game pricing and secondary market dynamics, collection management and when to sell machines, topper accessories, and playfield information design philosophy.

Key Claims

  • Hexa Pinball is a French company launching their first game, Space Hunt, with production values comparable to Stern's promotional standards

    high confidence · Host directly discussing the promo video and noting 'Hexa Pinball has a new pinball machine' with observation that 'you'd think, that's a Stern promo video'

  • Space Hunt is an original (unlicensed) theme, not based on existing IP

    high confidence · Host explicitly states 'it's not a licensed theme' and discusses it alongside other original IPs like Dialed In, Galactic Tank Force, Celts, Final Resistance, and Heist

  • Jersey Jack will manufacture a Harry Potter pinball machine

    high confidence · Host states 'Jersey Jack doing it' and discusses Joe Kamenkow's announcement: 'Joe Kamenkow went, hey, everybody, Harry Potter's coming out. It's Jersey Jack'

  • Stern has announced Jaws as an upcoming pinball machine

    high confidence · Host states 'I've seen that Jaws is going to be out from Stern at some stage'

  • Licensing deals are often shopped to multiple pinball manufacturers by IP holders, not exclusive to one company

    high confidence · Host explains: 'licences don't just deal with one pinball company... pinball companies have approached a license holder and then that license holder has gone to the other pinball company'

  • Original theme games like Galactic Tank Force have 'come under a bit of criticism' related to theme execution and gameplay

    medium confidence · Host states 'Galactic Tank Force has... come under a bit of criticism and really it has been around the theme' and notes difficulty in determining what makes original themes work

  • Operator purchasing decisions heavily favor recognized licenses over original themes for route placement

    high confidence · Host explains: 'If you're an operator, are you going to put out any game with a license that you recognize versus Space Hunt or Galactic Tank Force, you're probably going to take Tried and True. You're going to take Star Wars'

Notable Quotes

  • “Space Hunt they were so close just one letter and we would have been like endorsing the shit out of this.”

    Host @ Early in episode — Humorous opening comment about the game's name similarity to 'Space Jam'

  • “Yeah, I like seeing other companies kind of get into it. I wish them the best. People, obviously, are going to be cautious. Okay, let me play the game first of all because it's not a licensed theme. Does it shoot well?”

    Host @ ~5-6 min mark — Expresses cautious optimism about Hexa Pinball's entry while highlighting the risk of original themes

  • “everybody, well, not everybody, because you know, it's not like I've spoken to everybody on the internet, but a lot of people say they want original themes. And then it's always, yeah, I want original theme, but not that.”

    Host @ ~7-8 min mark — Captures the contradiction in community preferences for original IPs

  • “If you're an operator, are you going to put out any game with a license that you recognize versus Space Hunt or Galactic Tank Force, you're probably going to take Tried and True. You're going to take Star Wars.”

    Host @ ~12-13 min mark — Explains the economic rationale driving operator purchasing decisions and market segmentation

  • “So if you can get that game right now some people might pay an extra five hundred dollars for it or an extra thousand dollars for a low playing game”

    Guest (Marty) @ ~25-26 min mark — Discusses secondary market premium pricing driven by supply constraints

  • “If you've got a machine at home, your machine just went up in price, probably the same parallel amount”

    Guest (Marty) @ ~28 min mark — Notes how manufacturer price increases simultaneously raise secondary market values

  • “Everything was on the back. There was nothing labeled on the playfield. And you remember the joke, shoot the flashing light?”

    Host @ ~49 min mark — Criticizes Wizard of Oz's design approach lacking playfield guidance

Entities

Hexa PinballcompanySpace HuntgameStern PinballcompanyJersey Jack PinballcompanyJoe KamenkowpersonAmerican PinballcompanySpooky PinballcompanyHaggis Gamescompany

Signals

  • ?

    announcement: Hexa Pinball officially announces Space Hunt as their debut machine with promo video showcase

    high · Hosts discuss watching 'the promo piece' and 'the promo video' for Space Hunt; described as having professional Stern-level production values

  • ?

    product_launch: Hexa Pinball, a French boutique manufacturer, enters market with Space Hunt as first title

    high · Hosts identify 'Hexa Pinball has a new pinball machine' and note 'new company' with 'really good job of revealing themselves and their game'

  • ?

    machine_intel: Harry Potter confirmed as Jersey Jack Pinball title after Joe Kamenkow's public announcement

    high · Host states: 'Joe Kamenkow went, hey, everybody, Harry Potter's coming out. It's Jersey Jack' and notes this was announced roughly 1-2 weeks after previous episode recording

  • ?

    machine_intel: Jaws confirmed as upcoming Stern Pinball release

    high · Host states: 'I've seen that Jaws is going to be out from Stern at some stage'

  • ?

    rumor_hype: Steve Ritchie potentially designing Matrix pinball for unspecified manufacturer

    low · Host states: 'I know that the rumor was Steve Ritchie doing Matrix' but acknowledges source uncertainty ('Is this Pinside? Is this Snap Arcade?')

  • ?

    design_philosophy: Modern pinball design trend favoring LCD back glass information over playfield text, enabling dynamic rule changes but reducing head-down gameplay

Transcript

groq_whisper · $0.230

0:00
The Pinball Network is online. Launching final round pinball podcast. It's player versus player and player versus machine. welcome to the final round where do you go from episode 69 do we have any left in the tank you bet we do it's number 70 baby space hunt space hunt they were so close just one letter and we would have been like endorsing the shit out of this.
1:01
Complete space hunt. So, yeah. I saw the promo video. All right, let's go right there right now. So Hexa Pinball has a new pinball machine. If you like pink.
1:13
The band or the color? The artist or the color? The color. Okay. You were in for a great game. Space hunt. And if you like some rock and roll themes, my goodness. The music was interesting. Hey, listen, I'm not knocking on it. I just, for the first time, like minutes ago, saw the promo piece. And if you close your eyes and you squinted so you didn't see a theme, did you not think, that's a Stern promo video? You know what? This is my initial impressions of this whole game. Obviously, it's pink, and B, that theme song is absolutely ridiculous. I love it. But I looked at it. I looked at the production values of the video and the look of the game as well, And I thought, yeah, that's a good way to launch a new company with a new game. Yeah. I mean, you're used to that kind of promo piece where you get a quick look at the machine, an overhead view, you've got a person plunging, you see the ball in action. It's kind of what Stern's been doing for several years with their promo pieces. So, again, it's not Stern. It's Hexa Pinball. Is this a company from France? I think so, yeah. You've got a lot of French in it. So, if they're not, we apologize. guys probably should do some research into it, but you don't get that on final round. You get what you get.
2:31

Smaller boutique manufacturers like Spooky, American Pinball, and Haggis succeed with limited production runs (200-250 units) rather than mass production

high confidence · Host discusses Haggis selling 250 Mermaid editions of Fathom and notes 'Spooky... would sell out what their allotment was' and 'they've been able to keep coming back'

  • COVID-era pinball prices spiked due to increased demand and reduced supply, creating secondary market premiums

    high confidence · Host explains: 'demand went up because people all of a sudden found they had money... demand going up, supply going down. That's why you've got those two factors pushing prices up'

  • Modern pinball games with LCD screens often lack playfield-based instructional text, requiring players to look at back glass screens instead of focusing on flippers

    high confidence · Host and guest discuss design philosophy: 'LCD screens stopped people from putting instructions on the playfield' and cite Jersey Jack's Wizard of Oz as example where 'Everything was on the back. There was nothing labeled on the playfield'

  • “A game like Pulp Fiction, which you love and I still haven't played it, you don't ever have to lift your head. You can't lift your head.”

    Host @ ~50 min mark — Contrasts modern design with older games that maintain head-down gameplay

  • “If you don't have it prescribed on the playfield, it allows you to evolve and change things over time”

    Guest (appears to be designer/developer) @ ~52 min mark — Explains design rationale for flexible rule systems using LCD screens

  • “I already know what I could get for the fish tails, and it's a good number, but I just can't do it. I can't do it.”

    Guest (Marty) @ ~40-41 min mark — Illustrates emotional attachment to machines vs. market opportunity

    • Galactic Tank Force
    game
    Dialed Ingame
    Harry Pottergame
    Jawsgame
    Godzillagame
    Wizard of Ozgame
    Pulp Fictiongame
    Mandaloriangame
    Martyperson
    Jeff Teolisperson
    Ryan Cperson
    Keith Elwinperson
    Gary Sternperson
    Josh Sharperperson
    Zachperson

    high · Extended discussion citing Jersey Jack's Wizard of Oz as example where 'Everything was on the back. There was nothing labeled on the playfield' and designer defending this approach for flexibility

  • $

    market_signal: Secondary market premiums for new in-box games constrained by supply availability; COVID-era anomalies unlikely to repeat

    high · Hosts discuss supply/demand mechanics: 'demand went up, supply going down' driving COVID-era premiums; note prices 'flatten out a little bit' as distributor stock improves

  • ?

    product_strategy: Successful boutique manufacturers (Spooky, American Pinball, Haggis) operate on limited production allotments (200-250 units) rather than mass production, enabling sustainable profitability

    high · Host notes: 'Haggis... wanted to sell 200 kelts sold out 250 mermaid editions' and 'Spooky... would sell out what their allotment was' then keep returning with new games

  • ?

    industry_signal: IP holders shop licenses to multiple pinball manufacturers rather than exclusive deals; manufacturers compete for rights

    high · Host explains: 'licences don't just deal with one pinball company... pinball companies have approached a license holder and then that license holder has gone to the other pinball company'

  • ~

    sentiment_shift: Community divided on original-themed games; demand stated but execution-dependent; Galactic Tank Force under criticism for theme/gameplay

    high · Host notes: 'a lot of people say they want original themes. And then it's always, yeah, I want original theme, but not that' and 'Galactic Tank Force has... come under a bit of criticism'

  • ?

    venue_signal: Major international pinball tournaments occurring including European Championship, IFPA Olympics, and IFPA World Championships with zero topper usage

    high · Guest reports: 'I just went to a pretty big tournament in Germany. I was at the European Championship. I was at the IFPA Olympics. I was at the IFPA World Championships... I didn't see one game with a topper'

  • ?

    collector_signal: Premium aftermarket toppers ($2,000-$3,000 range) popular among collectors; Stern and third-party manufacturers competing; Mandalorian topper cited as among best ever made

    high · Host discusses Stern's official Godzilla topper, Electric Playground's competing Godzilla topper, and notes Mandalorian 'is spectacular and maybe one of the best two ever'

    • We kind of like, I don't know. We, we, we check ourselves. Like as soon as we've got too much research, we're like, come on, this fucking record. Stop this research bullshit. Like if you, if people saw the notes we have before a show, the note, if you took a small post-it note, you could fill that up for the next four shows because we're not using a lot of space here. So we just go with the flow. So Space Hunt. You know what? I like seeing other companies kind of get into it. I wish them the best. People, obviously, are going to be cautious. Okay, let me play the game first of all because it's not a licensed theme. Does it shoot well? We'll have to see. I'm looking forward to seeing it and shooting it. Yeah, it does look like it shoots well. The only thing I would say is probably just tone down the pink a bit. but you know how and i think that um galactic tank force has i don't know i mean look i know when i did my report on tpf i said i was pretty cool on it i didn't really enjoy the way it shot but i didn't really want to shit on it but it has actually come under a bit of criticism and really it has been around the theme and oh it's just an interesting topic because it comes back to this, everybody, well, not everybody, because, you know, it's not like I've spoken to everybody on the internet, but a lot of people say they want original themes. And then it's always, yeah, I want original theme, but not that. Yeah. What I think is if you look at the original themes that have come out, and you just pick the ones that I've not mentioned, but Dialed In was one of the big new original IPs. You had TNA was new. now you've got Galactic Tanker Force, you've got this. What other new IPs have you got? Well, Celts, obviously, is there? Final Resistance is there. So it's... Heist. Heist, yeah. I'm trying to work out what makes an original license or an original theme work well versus those that don't. And I think it sort of comes down to how far into it you lean. So, for example, Dialed In lent really into the whole mobile phone stuff and the disaster stuff, and I think that was potentially a bit polarizing. Galactic Tank Force really leans into the camp of it, and I think that has put some people off. The reason why I said that, because Space Hunter, I look at Space Hunter and I go, do you know what? It's not offensive. It's just, it's an original theme. It works. It's not offensive because I don't think it's trying to force any particular angle down. It's just a good theme. Fine. Theme matters to people that are fans. You've got a fan base already developed. You don't have to explain the IP. You've got people like me. I don't care what it looks like. Just give it to me when Led Zeppelin came out, right? So you really have to win them over when you have something original. What IPs and licenses matter, definitely. If you're an operator, are you going to put out any game with a license that you recognize versus Space Hunt or Galactic Tank Force, you're probably going to take Tried and True. You're going to take Star Wars. You're going to take Mandalorian. You're going to take Ghostbusters. You're going to take things people already recognize. It's pretty easy to go down that route if you're an operator. I'm not an operator. I care about how the game plays, how the game shoots. Is it fun? Is it deep enough? Is it too deep? Does it explain itself well? Is it intuitive? Those are things that matter. The shots, are they fun? Can code be fixed? Are the callouts fun? Those things matter because I'm not an operator. But I would say the majority of people aren't operators. So they're the loudest, I find, the people who are operators. And they keep pinball alive. They show these machines to the masses that the majority don't own machines. So if it weren't for the operators, how are we going to get pinball out there? So God bless the operators. and it's easier for them to make the purchase on an IP that they recognize versus the list you just gave. Yeah, I agree with all of that. And the additional to that is that I guess the benchmark in sales really is Stern, as we know. We assume they still sell the most compared to everybody else, and they have license theme upon license theme. So that becomes the benchmark. but well take haggis for example only wanted to sell 200 kelts sold out 250 mermaid editions of fathom and likely that the future as well so if you look at that and you go most people go oh that's a original thing you only sold 250 of them it's a fail is it a fail because you don't know how many units a company wants to sell for them to be considered successful so collective tank Force Prime example, a relatively mature company in American pinball, how many of those games did they want to sell? How many do we know? It may be 200, maybe 2,000, maybe 20,000. But those measures of success are for the business themselves, not for the consumer looking at these machines. Well, before Haggis, before American pinball, the one company that was doing this that was selling smaller amounts was Spooky. And they would sell out what their allotment was. It would take however long it took to make the games, but they would sell them out and they've been able to keep coming back with more and even licensed products. That's their business model. You don't have to sell thousands and thousands if your business model is that way. So they're obviously making money and I would assume the same for American, same for Haggis and hopefully for Hexa Pinball too. So you don't know how it works uh it's obviously tough for a startup company that's got a lot of money going out and not a lot coming in but um it probably gets easier as more games come on the line who knows uh wish them the best of luck yeah for sure but again as far as new game new company i think they did a really good job of revealing themselves and their game so well done so that's the latest release. I mean, the last time we had a release, there were seven of them. In true Pinside fashion. Oh, that's great. Space Hunt. What's next? That is tough to figure out what's going to be next. The rumblings I've heard, and don't know this to be true. I wouldn't put this out there if I knew. You'd have to think Stern's probably got another one in their back pocket. I would think Jersey Jack does too. You've been hearing the rumblings of Steve Ritchie hopefully for the fall. Who knows who else? you're getting close to your fathom run being done. When is Haggis going to give us a new one? Give us the date right now, Marty. Here we go.
    9:26
    I cannot say, but you know, it may be by the time this podcast airs, it may be announced, or it may be next year. You know, it's somewhere in between those times. But yeah, So I'm going to quickly change subjects away from me and say, well, obviously, I've seen that Jaws is going to be out from Stern at some stage. I know that the rumor was Steve Ritchie doing Matrix. I never heard that. Yeah. When you say rumors, is this Pinside? Is this Snap Arcade? What is this? It's one of those. It's not from somebody telling me directly because, as you know, and this is for you listeners, if I hear from a manufacturer what they're actually manufacturing, I am never going to mention it. Ditto. I'm only ever going to mention rumors if I've seen that somebody publicly has mentioned the rumor. Yeah. No, of course. There are, because I do. I have inside information because you've got to know that, well, actually, we do know this anyway. This is relative to public knowledge, but licences don't just deal with one pinball company. You know what I mean? We've seen that previously with Godzilla. Obviously, Toho got snapped by Stern. but what I know that there are times when pinball companies have approached a license holder and then that license holder has gone to the other pinball company to see what they can do. So the reason why I'm saying that is, first of all, people, just so you know, these companies and these bands, these TV shows, these movies, whatever, they don't just hedge their bets with one pinball manufacturer. They try to shop themselves around and I'm privy to some of that is all I'm saying. Oh, okay. You know, we haven't even talked since the last episode. We recorded, and then maybe a week or two after we recorded, Joe Kamenkow went, hey, everybody, Harry Potter's coming out. It's Jersey Jack, which we didn't talk about. Now, lots of people have said what they thought about Joe doing that. Is it sour grapes? Maybe. It's something he obviously wanted to get. You know, is he disgruntled that maybe there have been some changes with Gary Stern and that company. Who knows? I don't. But those rumblings are out there. Is he bummed that maybe he didn't get it? All that aside, Jersey Jack doing it, which when I look at all the things that Jersey Jack puts in a pinball machine, I'm not a Harry Potter fan. Sorry, I know it's a shock. I would say if I was, I think I'd want Jersey Jack to do it. For sure. Am I right? Okay. Oh, no. For years and years and years, I have said, if somebody's going to do it, I want Jersey Jack to do it. Can you imagine the pro model of that with Stern? Yeah. It would be no fun. Whereas Jersey Jack's going to throw everything in it. That's exactly right. But I also think not just that, I also think the art style that Jersey Jack tends to go with is a bit more fantasy rather than a lot of the cartoon and line drawn work that Stern goes with. That makes sense. Is there a price that's too high for you to get into the Harry Potter game? Because I know this is a license you've wanted. You want this game. It's everything to you. How many wands do you have to sell to buy this machine, Marty?
    13:10
    Realistically, a dollar puts me out because I just am not in the position to buy a new machine. Oh. So if it came out today, I would have to pass. Whoa. Yeah, just not ready to get back in. It's funny you should say that, because I like my little collection here, and I was asked, I think Anne might have asked me, are you getting any more machines? And I'm like, honestly, there's games I love, but I really like what I, something would have to go for space, and I like every game I've gotten here, so probably not.
    13:48
    That brings me up to the question, when's a good time to sell a game? Because there are lots of factors. I know we're jumping all over the place here. listen it's a slow news day just stick with us all right yeah go with it but these things these things are related we're shooting the shit so right because right now i've got one machine right i've only got wizard of oz left in my collection okay so if i was going to so it's a really good question because if i was going to buy harry potter if it was announced so if it was announced today i would have to sell that game and then get the balance and and go for it but I would only do that at the last minute. But if they said, if we now know, let's say it's 12 months away, the question then is, when? When would you sell it? And there are so many variables that come into it. Because right now, that's an older game.
    14:41
    2013, am I right? 2012? Somewhere around there, yeah. Oh, wow. So old we are. So it depends. let's say you just received a Foo Fighters. Which is a game I'd love to have. I love that game. I just, I went over to James and Jackie's and played their limited edition Foo Fighters and it's still, it's still as good as I remembered it. The downside was that because it was somebody else's, they're like, let's keep playing. I'm like, no, I don't want to keep playing because I don't want to play it so much that I love it that I regret not having it. but it really is a fantastic game. So when would be the best time to sell a Foo Fighters? Or any game. So, I mean, the factors are... But it's so different. You can't lump them all together because a brand new Foo Fighters has a different sales cycle than a game that's 20 years old. All right, good point. So Foo Fighters, right now, if you were to sell it, and we're not including LEs, if you had a Pro, if you had a Premium, you could still buy a Pro on a Premium. So are you taking it at a loss? Are you selling it to somebody who, I have to have it right right now? Maybe you got it for a deal. Maybe it was a Stern Rewards thing and you got it on the cheap. Who knows? Maybe it fell off the back of a truck. I don't know how you got your game. But the flipping of games that aren't LEs, okay, if the game's still for sale, you're probably not going to get that price for it. You're probably going to lose a little money. So it's probably not a wise time to sell a pro or a premium right now. well again it depends on how quickly companies are delivering games because i mean what what is it people are still waiting on well a lot of games that were announced years ago people are still waiting on so if you can get that game right now some people might pay an extra five hundred dollars for it or an extra thousand dollars for a low playing game so i bought a new in box Avengers game, which I like the game, but I wanted Godzilla and it wasn't available yet. So I was told it would be about nine months. So I thought, you know what? I'll just buy Avengers when Godzilla's ready. I'll sell my Avengers. I'll get nine months in kind of thing. I didn't lose money on the thing, but you could still buy an Avengers new in box. The thing that helped me, I think a little bit was remember January 1st, all those prices went up. So I was able to sell for what I wanted to sell it for. And I sold it before January 1st. Had I sold it after January 1st, I probably could have got more money for it. But I sold it to a friend. I said, now's the time to buy it. Trust me, because it goes up January 1, including, you know, whenever those prices increase by any company. If you've got a machine at home, your machine just went up in price, probably the same parallel amount, I would guess. No? Yeah? Yeah, no. So? But the question is, when is the right time? And, yeah, I mean, the answer really is you've got to just be watching the market. You've got to see what people are putting games up for and what they're actually going for and whether those prices are going up or going down. Your Wizard of Oz, now 10 plus years, right? That's a game that's only gone up in value. Now, I remember when you, years ago, bought kind of sight unseen. You had to have the limited edition. Sorry to bring this up. It was Munsters. No, I knew you were going to bring it up. No, no, no, because you were a fan. It's a tragic tale. Nah, it's not tragic. It is. I lost $3,000 on it. It's tragic. Hmm. Had you kept it longer, you would not have lost $3,000, right? For sure. Absolutely. So that's, I guess, what we're saying. Yeah. Whatever your collection is now, you could sell it for X. It only goes up as you wait. And I know I joke about saying the bubble is going to burst soon. Yeah, it probably is going to flatten out a little bit. But I still think you holding on to that Wizard of Oz, you know, it only goes up in price the longer you hold on to it. Oh, without a doubt. It got ridiculous kind of during COVID when there was nothing to buy. Remember, we didn't have... no distributor had anything. Well, distributors everywhere have lots of games. Not tons Maybe not the ones you want But there are options So that brings down the price I think a little bit in the meantime But once those games are out of production you looking good Yeah, classic supply and demand. Over COVID, demand went up because people all of a sudden found they had money and a lot of people came into the hobby at that time because they had nothing to do. So that's an increase in demand, which if supply was the same, would have increased prices. But you've got demand going up, supply going down. That's why you've got those two factors pushing prices up. What I'm saying is, if you are holding onto a machine right now and you were thinking to yourself, I would love to sell this for $2,000 more than what it's going for, then I would recommend investing in a laboratory somewhere, get some dead animals, and somehow come up with a new coronavirus, infect the world, wait a couple of years, put your pinball machine up on Craigslist, boom, there you go. May have caused millions of deaths, but you got $2,000 extra on your machine. I think worth it. What's one more wet market in the world, right? Correct. Exactly right.
    20:22
    You love death. You just are obsessed about it. Yep, for sure. For sure. Fuck, I didn't even, you know what, I'm not foreshadowing. I have no who would you kill. I mean, I don't right now. We're only 22 minutes into the show. I could always add one later if you spark my interest. But right now there's nothing. Okay, so a good time to sell. When's a good time to sell? Well, the older games, you know. Here's the thing. If I were to sell a game right now, I have, let me see. I got Valhalla, Simpsons, Zeppelin, Rush, ACDC, Godzilla, Ali, Joker Poker, and Fishtails. Hmm. If I had to sell one, I mean, you could sell Godzilla and get another one. I don't want to sell Rush because I like it.
    21:08
    Zeppelin Ali, I could always sell it and get a Pro, I guess. Simpsons isn't ever leaving, period. Legends of Valhalla, I'm too vain to sell that. But I may never get to voice another one of these things. So that was fun. ACDC. First new in box I've got. Fuck. Who knows what I paid. But what they go for now, I'd almost be getting double. Yeah. Easy. But I don't want to sell it. It's Lyman Code. I've modded it up with a few things. Joker Poker. My wife likes EMs. Not that it's an EM. It's a solid state. But she likes the chimes and stuff. Okay, fine. It's good. Ali I got from Papa. It's the Pember one. so there's sentimental value on it. Yep, I've played that one. That brings me to Fishtails, which I love. Which would be the one. As soon as you said that, I would go Fishtails. To sell? Yep. God, it's fun because you can play so many different ways. And here's the thing. Everything else that's new and modern, you can replace. Those old ones are hard to come by. I play it all the time. It's fun. Do you? Yeah, yeah. Well, that was going to be the question. Of all those games, take Joker Poker out because obviously that's got a certain amount of value for Ant. But I say this because, hi, Eric, you know Eric, right? Oz Eric. Yeah. And he has a lot of machines. And he's better at it now but found it very, very difficult to let go of games. And I think he's got, you know, 50 games in his collection. And it was always the Marie Kondo, you know, what game doesn't bring you joy anymore? And that's kind of the question I'm having with you is of all those games, they're all, it's a small collection, comparatively, so you've got a small amount of machines so you can have a connection with all of them, is what I'm saying. So that makes it harder, but I'm still going to ask the question, which one do you play the least? Well, I've got one in storage I haven't even had here. Thanks, Zach. Zach Many picked it up for me, and I kind of forgot about it just recently. It's a really cheap ballet game of the 80s, but I love it for the theme, and I love it for, it's actually a good tournament game because it screws you up, but it's really bare bones. It's called Grand Slam. Yep. They did make many of them. It's a two-player game, but I love baseball. It's all that stuff. Anyway, so I've got that too. The one I play the least, you know, I remember when Ed Robertson was on and he talked to me, whether it's here or Pinball Profile, just he's not sentimental to games and that's my problem. The one I play the least is Ali.
    23:41
    First of all, I love the man, Muhammad Ali. I'm obsessed. I've got books and books on him. I saw him live. I collect some Muhammad Ali's. I've been to the Muhammad Ali Museum in Louisville, Kentucky. I'm a big fan of Ali. So that should never leave. But I don't play it that often. I can't do it. That should be the one, but I can't do it. So that brings me to the fishtails. but I'm like, geez, that's my favorite era of pinball machines. It wasn't a licensed theme, but it was just funny. I love the callouts. It's one of my favorite video modes. I like the speed of the game with the boat. If you really want to blow it up, you go multiball, you go captable. It's so much fun. And, oh, damn, but I got to get rid of it, I think, someday somehow, and it'll break my heart because I don't want all new games. I want a mix. But going back to the big question that we're trying to answer is, when do you sell a game? It was like my Star Trek. You know how much I love my Star Trek. I was never, never going to let it go. But when I messaged Ryan and I went, what do you reckon I could get for this? And he told me the dollars. It was sold within a week because, and I guess that's the point. If you were to look at how much your fishtails could go for, and it was way more than you thought it would, you'd have to let it go, wouldn't you? Ali would probably be the same. There's a price for everything, you know? Yeah. I already know what I could get for the fish tails, and it's a good number, but I just can't do it. I can't do it. No, that's right. If I need the money, for sure I would. Yeah, okay. Do you know what? It's a nice thing to actually have machines sitting there because you know if tragedy ever struck, you'd sell your games and you'd get yourself out of trouble. Well, I'd sell my body first, but then the games. No, you've got to make money. Fine. We've seen your body weight.
    25:43
    You'd have to pay people. Well, you know, I should invest in toppers then, because that's where the money's being made. Oh, what an amazing segue that is. Well done. I still can't get over the top. I saw the Godzilla one. Well, there's two of them. What? There's two of them. So Stern released their official Godzilla topper, But the electric playground that did the Twilight Zone topper, they also announced theirs, I think, maybe the day or two days before. Which one's better?
    26:13
    I would say the electric playground. Really? Yep. Hmm. I guess, you know, I've seen people with the LEs and stuff, and if you've got one, yeah, you know, I've got to get another one. It's kind of like Penn Stadiums, you know what I mean, or Invisiglass. Those kind of collectors like to mod them up and the toppers. and it certainly increases your game not for playing but definitely for the value of the game because they only go up and up and up and i've yet to ever buy a topper i can't see me ever doing it ever i guess if i wanted to do it to flip it that would make sense but i just nah no i'm i'm the same as you i don't i've never bought a topper separately i do like a game when it comes with a topper, I think that is fine. That's good. That's how it should be. Even my fishtails. I've unplugged the fish because it knocks so loud. Yeah. My Valhalla came with one, but it's quiet. It doesn't do anything. The Rush topper is gorgeous. The Zeppelin one's kind of funky and cool. I love the Black Knight one, but I don't have a Black Knight game, but that thing was really cool. I told Dwight, I said that Mandalorian topper is spectacular and maybe one of the best two ever. But still, even though they add modes for these things, it just doesn't do it for me. And I just went to a pretty big tournament in Germany. I was at the European Championship. I was at the IFPA Olympics. I was at the IFPA World Championships. We'll get to that in a second. I didn't see one game with a topper, one game with a mode on it. And that's the best of the best. So it's really more for the collectors, I think. Yeah, I mean, that's not really going to be the prime example. As you said, it's a tournament. They turn that stuff off. They don't care about toppers. And when you're transporting a game from any location to that particular, you're going to take your topper off, aren't you? Oh, for sure. Yeah, especially if it's one of these $2,000, $3,000 toppers. But that being said, at big shows, you know, Expo, TPF, I'm sure, Tazpin or Brisbane Masters or some of these big, big shows, you see the toppers on display. And they're cool. I really enjoyed seeing what they had to do. But not for me. Not for me for buying. No, you've always said that you don't care about toppers. And you know, our friend, my friend James, he has got Attack from Mars remake. It came with a topper. And it's great. He hasn't even unboxed the topper. It's still in the box. You know what I mean? You should sell it. Some people just aren't into toppers. That's a good one, though. That one's a real good one. I reckon that probably is. I think that's my favorite topper of all time. Think about playing pinball. Josh Sharper and I were talking about some games, things he likes, things he doesn't like. And even with LCD screens and stuff, you should be looking down at the play field, at the flippers. What's there? Is it telling you what to do? or going up to the LCD screen, it's got a lot of information. We were talking about Rush, and I said, I would find it a very difficult game to play if I didn't own it. And he said, yeah, you need to kind of have some more information on the play field. You have to look up the screen. The screen should be for scores and animations, so to speak, but you really need to look at that LCD screen. Well, that's lifting your head a little bit. A topper, if that's got something that's game mode worth, I can't lift my head. I have lost the ball by then. Yeah, I mean, you've got to ask yourself, what's the purpose of the topper?
    29:57
    And that's where I think Mandalorian probably shoots itself in the foot because you actually get game information up on that holographic sub, but I'm not going to look up there. You're right. I've got to say, I played in a two-player, three-player fun game, and it was fun watching the topper as I'm standing away from the machine to get that information. So that was kind of cool. But that being said, even all the new games, and I use Russian example, but you can really use any game. Most of them. I don't get a lot of information on the play field. Unfortunately, I'm usually getting more watching somebody play the game and looking at the screen, which you can't do when you're playing. Right. A game like Pulp Fiction, which you love and I still haven't played it, you don't ever have to lift your head. You can't lift your head. There's nothing to see up top. So it's got to give you that information on the play field, which it does. And again, they have to. They don't have an LCD screen. Yeah, and I think there was a real shift. And I think probably Jersey Jack was the most guilty. And I'll give you the prime example is... Was? Wizard of Oz. Yeah. Everything was on the back. There was nothing labeled on the playfield. And you remember the joke, shoot the flashing light? Yeah. So I think LCD screens stopped people from putting instructions on the playfield. One thing I know Keith Elwin has always said, he still wants you to look at the playfield and know what to do just by looking at the playfield. So I think he's got it right. But I think a lot of manufacturers decided, well, you don't need that on the playfield because we can do that on the screen. I will defend it in one regard, and that is if you don't have it prescribed on the playfield, it allows you to evolve and change things over time. You know, for me, as you would know, I'm currently working on a remake and I'm doing a new rule set. I would love for there to be no text on a play field. But you've got those nice apron screens, so that helps you out a little bit. Sure. You're looking down the flippers. It's going to catch your eye. You're going to get that information. Sure. But I don't have freedom is what I'm saying because it does restrict me. And that's the position I'm defending is that as a designer or rule code or whatever, if you don't have it on the play field, then it gives you the ability to pivot and change and evolve. Well, I remember the first time I looked at the Avengers Infinity Quest play field and I looked at the grid and it had 750K. And I was like, oh, it's actually got a number on there. I hope that's a good number because maybe it's insignificant, but as you know, with code and score balancing, you're locked in at 750. Is that a big number? Is it too small? Is it too big? That one freaked me out. I was like, ooh, now you're locked in, like you say, whereas if you don't put that information on there, you can adjust.
    32:54
    That is a great example. That was one that right away I was like, whoa, 750, why is that on there? yeah that means that means as you try to start balancing the game if all of a sudden you do this and you've got all these multipliers and a good score ends up being a billion what's 750 000 points nothing fuck all that's right so it does it forms as a bit of an anchor it means you've always got to juxtapose everything that you do against that one little insert yeah i don't know the bomb is on that, but you know how those inserts are, you know, they're printed on the plastic or whatever and backlit and all that kind of stuff? I wonder if having a screen where that can change as code changes, instead of it being, you know, plastics, it's actually a little screen, and it gives you different information. That'd be kind of cool. Well, obviously, it would, but Stern... Well, no, yeah, they have costs and whatnot, but... Stern wouldn't put a screen there if they could put inserts there. Yeah, yeah, interesting. oh well there you go can i just just because you mentioned it i just wanted to bring up that i did i went to hashban and danger race house recently and got to play some games that i haven't played for a while and that was where i got to play mandalorian with the topper that's experience um i got to play led zeppelin and i think this one was either a premium or an LE. Did it have the center thing that comes up, electric magic? Yeah. Okay. Okay. First of all, I don't know what it is, but the premium just plays so much better than the pro, just insanely so. And I was ready to think that that spinner thing was going to be dumb. It's not. It's really fucking good. It's actually a really cool effect. Okay. I still didn't love it rules-wise. I still don't like the layout. I think it's very, oh, I just think it's awkward. It's an awkward layout. It doesn't feel natural. So yeah, it's still a hard pass for me, but better. Two years, two years, one month. That's how long I've had my electric magic disabled. Yeah, okay. It's Friday night. I had people over here and they're like, how do I get that to rise on my Zeppelin? And I'm like, it's not, it's disabled. I've turned it off. It gets in the way. So you rant and rave about the premium. It's got the electric magic. It's got the nice side ramp into the wire form shot as opposed to a dead stand up. I still prefer the pro. And I have the LE. I prefer the pro. Yes, the upper ramp shot is upper flipper shot is definitely more satisfying. It's also a lot harder too. And just the electric magic thing for the way the code works in that game. it detracts from the game. To really go deep on the game it's all about combos and that kills your combo. You're going to go through that spinner and it's going to hit some sort of stand up to end your combo whereas if you can from a long distance away on a shitty layout of a play field, if you can combo those ramps, you've got a big score coming. But that electric magic kills it.
    36:14
    Give me the pro. I know it sounds weird. I like the artwork of the premium and the belly that's fine and i hear what you're saying my counter that is that because i find it such an unsatisfying layout i need to get joy somehow and that spinner lighting up just flashing and i get joy out of it out of what is otherwise a lackluster game so if it was the pro that's why i didn't enjoy the pro i got i got nothing out of it at least with this i got a bit of flashing lights. Yay, flashing lights. It's got a great sound. You can rip the living shit out of it from both flippers. It's got the magnet that goes up and down pretty quick. Originally, it went up and down really slow, so they had to fix that in code and zip it up, zip it down. And it had to be on a ramp for it to come back up because it would airball. Anyway, they've come a long way from it. Maybe one day they'll install it, but eh. Because you were so close to it, I don't know, it would bang up the spinner and the spinner wouldn't settle. It wouldn't be vertical. And so when it's horizontal, the ball would go right through it, and it would always stay up. I was like, get the fuck out of here. Anyway, that was that. Okay, let's go back to Germany for a second here, shall we? Yes, please. I went there for 17 days. That's a long time.
    37:32
    Which you said was possibly a bit too long? Oh, it definitely was. I loved the people there and got to see people I don't get to see quite often, and that experience was wonderful. I don't think I've ever had a trip longer than two weeks. So 17 days, that's a lot of fucking schnitzel. Let's just put it that way. That's a lot of bratwurst. That's a lot of reina.
    37:56
    Anyway, it was good. I was just, hey, man, I'm old. I like my bed. I like my pillow. Ann was with me for the first week. Spent time with Derek Price and Steve Bowden for the 10 days of all the tournaments. So those guys were great, too. So it started off the European Pinball Championship and then the IFP Olympics. That was done at Bulls and Balls in Fulda. Mateus has a wonderful compound of all these cool pinball things Then we moved over to Freddy Pinball Paradise in Etchell and that was where the World Championship was Here's the things I noticed, and probably the three things I noticed the most in my time in Germany. Holy shit, do they love playfield protectors. Oh, really? On almost every new game, they had playfield protectors. The machines were pristine. They were gorgeous. I can't say I've played with playfield protectors. I think there's a place for them. If you're a collector and you're not playing these games a lot and you want them to look nice and you worry about things like divots and this and that, great, fill your boots. I don't know many tournaments that have it, and every tournament in Germany seemed to have them. It's a real common thing there. So anything that was a new machine had a playfield protector. Even some of the solid state games. I remember playing probably Harlem, but definitely Skateball. I'm like, oh, man, there's one on there too. It felt different for us North American players. We were, okay, that ball, it seems weird, but it felt like it was kind of like Bambi on ice, you know, floating around a little bit and just not, we weren't really used to it as much. It took a long time to get used to. Have you ever played tournaments with playfield protectors? Not that I can recall. No, I have played games that have got playfield protectors, but, yeah, no. Okay, I'm not trying to crap on anyone, but this is a pet peeve. If your location is dark and the lighting isn't great, that can be difficult for many players, probably over the age of 35, maybe not so much for the younger people. It looks kind of cool. Pinball machine looks cool, especially with all those LED lights. Wow, it's really bright. It's just hard and painful on the eyes to see, and sometimes balls get lost. So lighting is very, very important. So day one, I realized, oh, this could be a problem in this one section of this location, especially on newer games. Like, Getaway was pitch dark, shadow, pitch dark. You didn't see where the ball was kind of coming out, and I wasn't alone. So I went to a shop. Basically, they were bike headbands with LED lights. Yep. So I got one for me, for Steve Bowden, for Colin McAlpine. And we go to turn it on right away, and someone's like, oh, that's cheating. What? Well, it'll distract other players. Even if you were playing against a machine against a wall and there was nobody behind the machine, yeah, you can't play that. You can't use that. They didn't let you use them. That is fucking bullshit. If you're a TD and you don't allow that, kindly reconsider that. And they had all the lights off? Lights weren't off, but it was very, very dark and just you couldn't see. So I remember talking to Josh. He's like, well, you know what? take your cell phone, put on your light, and just put your cell phone on the glass. Okay. Like, can't distract anyone else. Like, it was that hard to see some of the games. So, come on, TDs. Have some common sense there. Those headlamps? Yeah. There are people that wear them all the time. You know, I see Trent Augenstein wear them, Andy Roses. Andy Rosa, yeah. But those guys, you know what? They don't turn it on until they step off the machine. And they're not turning their heads left and right. It's not distracting. So get used to it, folks. Those things are fine. And if you're going to play in a dark place and that's the way they have it, you should allow those headlamps, period. If it distracts somebody because you're turning it on too early or you're turning your head, that's a different story. But when you're looking straight ahead, looking down the play field, allow those headlamps. So do you, when you're playing your games at home, do you have the lights on or off? Always on. and I have them so that there's no glare. Glare is bad when it's near the flippers. Sometimes glare is on other parts, but yeah, just not near the flippers. I just don't know at what age, when I got really old, that I stopped being able to play pinball with the lights off. I now cannot stand it. And it was why... Here we go. My preference is to have the house lights off, but I can't see the ball anymore. So, what's the solution, Jeff? That's right, everybody. Pinstadium.com for all your lighting needs. It's exactly why I could have the lights off and still see the ball on the playfield. Yeah, that's different. That's different because that light's important. But with the LEDs, they're so bright and blinding. I mean, pin shades definitely help. That's a Jockton's product. Yeah. I know. He gave me a set at TPF. He's the best. So, those definitely help. But, yeah, I'd rather have some sort of lighting. Well, okay. I didn't have pin stadiums. but I had to play Getaway and I was like, oh no, I got to play like two really, it looked like it was going to be on it for back-to-back games. Paul Englert, great player from Germany, top 13, 14, 15 in the world at the time and I got to play him on Getaway. I'm like, I look at the play field, I'm like, I can't see a fucking thing. So I said to J. Dale Bimble, I'm like, hey, can we stream this game? Because they've got lights. Oh, they put lights on it. Oh, fantastic. And they said, oh, it's not up to me, it's up to Asher. I'm like, great, because Escher was in the booth. I'm like, Escher, can we stream the game? He's like, yeah, we can try to, but we're doing these other ones. I'm like, great. I don't honestly care if you do stream them. Just put on the gear, will you? And he's like, yeah, okay. So we all can see. Is that cheating? No, it's not. Okay. It's a little bit of privilege. I do know that. Let me tell you what I, of all the stuff that happened when you were in Germany, Let me tell you what I didn't see. Go ahead. I didn't see you in finals. Yeah, no. And I didn't see Australians in finals. I had a good chat with, in fact, by the time this episode airs, you will have heard Pinball Profile with Jason Lambert and Simon Peel, two great Aussies. I had a good chat with both those fellas. And so Lambert did good in one, I recall. I mean, there were so many different tournaments. I didn't play shitty. I didn't play great either. And I remember putting up a monster score and coming in third on the game. I'm like, I can't do any fucking better. These guys are just lights out better. So it was the best of the best. Don't kid yourself. It's tough. And that being said, think of how hard the games are. I remember coming back to Canada and playing in a tournament right after. I'm like, oh, my God, this is the easiest thing ever.
    44:55
    It's like playing with a glass off. So you get used to that. No, I know. I haven't caught up with him, so I haven't really got the details. What I do know is that Jason Lambeau, we call him, I can't remember the name of the game. I think it was like a solid state. And he had three house balls. Oh, I remember that too. And that was it. He was out. And he was just like, sorry, I cannot do better than that. Dolly Parton, I think, maybe. It might have been, but it was exactly that. He was like, I'm sorry, I'm out. Three house balls. Yeah, you can't do a lot with that. I mean, other people will say, okay, we'll plunge differently or short plunge, get a little flipper. Oh, for sure. Yeah, that's luck. Yeah, there's a little bit of that. But two other things. I said there were three. There's four. Two other things about playing in Europe. At the World Championships, again, won by Johannes Ostemeyer, a former guest on the final round. He beat Markus Witteren, and I hope I didn't butcher your name, the young kid from Finland. Wonderful kid who just really went on a tear. This kid was dead, dead, dead after six rounds and then just went crazy and basically didn't lose again and knocked off so many great. He knocked off Escher. He knocked off Zach McCarthy. He was on fire, just how good he was. Marcus Sticks. One thing from the World Championships. Remember, this is run by the IFPA, so this is Josh Sharp. This is Zach Sharp. It's Adam Becker. It's Brian Woodward. they basically came to the conclusion and i don't know if this will move forward you know how a lot of tournament directors put in earplugs in the tilt bob at the top of the tilt bob to make it settle quicker yep thing of the past my friend done because people were getting with murder tilting no with big moves and not tilting yeah that's what i mean yeah and even if somebody did tilt the player was still hey there's an earplug in there they still waited so what's the point Yeah. Do you know what? I want to see, in a tournament, I want to see a good tilt through. I want somebody to be. No, you don't. I'm not going to name names. Don't make me name names. I'm not naming names. Kelly George. No, I'm in Australia. Just somebody that I used to play against. Hi, I know they listen. Love you. Would, at the end of every ball, just tilt the game. And so if I was after this person, I'd have to wait, which is fine, but not every ball. Richard Rhodes? No, it's not. I'm not naming names, but I can tell you it's not Richard Rhodes. But a lovely, lovely person. Stacey Borg.
    47:37
    What was his name again? Stacey Borg. Stacey looks like a tilter. He looks like a tilter. No, he's not a tilter. No. Some would say, no, he isn't. Okay. The other thing I learned, so no more earplugs. Don't expect to see those. The last thing. So this year, and you're used to it in Australia, we're used to it in North America, we pay a dollar every time we play, and that goes to the IFPA, and part of that money goes to state or provincial finals or country finals or national finals and some even to the world championships. Well, it's new in Europe. I don't know how they get around it because each country's got different laws. They don't play for money at all. It would be the wonderful, wonderful UK Open that Neil McCrae puts on, September 30th. Croydon, UK, just south of London. I'll be going to that, looking forward to that. He puts up big, big money for that, so you can win some prize money. But the Europeans aren't used to it. They are now. They have to. And in talking with some, you'll hear it on Pinball Profile if you already haven't, they're not comfortable with it. At least some of the people aren't. I mean, it's a real mixed bag. It changes the way they play maybe, the pressure. I don't know. I think we're just so used to it. But I remember there was that kind of controversy when it first came out here in North America, probably in Australia too. But it's funny. I heard people say if the dollar went to IFPA for admin fees, I wouldn't blink an eye. The fact that it goes into a pool, I have a problem with, even if they're giving it all back. and it's a real, I respect the opinions and they're not alone and other people think that too, but it's interesting, that mindset. Yeah, we've all been through it. Was it a big deal in Australia? No, not really. Nah, you know, Aussies don't give a fuck about anything really. So, and I guess because we saw it all implode in the US and we were lucky as observers because we saw that after it happened, nobody died, you know. Again, that's the second time you've mentioned death. Yeah, but that's what I'm saying. Like, we just looked at it and went, oh, okay, it happened, it moved on. It shuffled things around. Some people came and went, but pinball still survived. So we were like, okay, good that we got away with it for, I think it was an extra two years until we got it. Now, I think it's just one of those things. I remember reading Tilt Forums when all that came about, and I remember, I hope my memory isn't incorrect, but Wisconsin was very divided on the dollar, and some people were so dead against it. Whereas now, Wisconsin is the mecca for IFPA tournaments and farms and all that kind of stuff with District 82. But there was a time when, ah, no, this dollar is ridiculous. We're going to pull out of the IFPA. Yeah. I know people that have stepped down from the IFPA as state or country directors just saying, yeah, it's not what I want to do. And, again, all respect to you for your stance on that. But it is what it is. I mean, Josh really doesn't ever wiggle on anything. He just doesn't care. He's going to do what he wants to do. And he's got a vision. And no one's forcing you to play in the IFPA. If you want to play your pinball, fill your boots. But if you want to be part of the IFPA, this is what you've got to do. Yep. 100,000 players. Wow. That's how many people have been ranked players. Jeez, that's a lot. oh let's just let's have a look shall we okay do we're doing this live listener let's have a look what's your current profile i mean what's my current profile your current ranking wow i'm now i'm 8754th i am fucking carrying the weight of this podcast I'm 61st. You are bringing me down, you mother. I have only got one tournament.
    51:47
    One tournament that counts. I came fifth, and that was at Ryan's house. Are you going to play again? I don't know. What are you? I don't know. Why are you so against it? I'm not against it. I'm against you. What? You can't. Well, that's true. Sorry, what?
    52:05
    No, I don't have time. I don't like these tournaments start too early and they finish too late. I can't disagree at all with that. Yeah, I'm busy. I'm doing 11, 12 hour days. I, by the time I've finished my day, the tournament's already started. So I've missed the cutoff for the start and they go to 11 o'clock or 12 o'clock. You know, if I happen to be lucky enough to get into the finals, I'm in bed hours before then. So we're just not compatible at the moment. If there were some weekend tournaments, sure, there'd be more of a chance for me to do it. But when it goes to the public vote and people say, would you prefer a tournament during the week or on the weekend? Everyone always says during the week. Really? Really. Always gets voted. So weekend tournaments never happen. And if it's going to happen during the week, you don't want it to go on and on and on because you've probably got to work the next day. Well, yeah. And there's one that's nearby my location where I work, so probably about 15 minutes away, so that would be easy. But the others are an hour each way easy. Yeah, that's if you're chasing the whoppers, I guess, right? Correct. And I'm, as you know, I'm busy and I'm working those hours because I love what I do, and that's my preference at the moment. But one day that'll change and I'll get back to doing tournaments. I'm sure of it. I'm trying to see. You know, in talking to Lambeau, I'm trying to see which countries. Obviously, the United States has more players than anyone else. So ranked players. Let me just have a quick, quick, quick, quick look here. United States, there are 24,000 active players led by the new number one player, Jason Zoller. Congratulations, Jason. Pretty impressive top four in all three majors this year. Escher almost made it three in a row. He was top at Indisc, top at the European Pinball Championships. And again, it was that Marcus Vitteren who knocked out Escher at the World Championships. So the United States, 24,000 ranked players. I think Canada is second. 2,300 players, so a tenth. But I think Australia is actually third. 1,600. 1,630, yeah. Germany, under 1,000. France, 200 players. I didn't realize that. That doesn't surprise me because, I mean, what we're led to believe is as a single country, I think we are the second biggest market outside of North America as a single country. If you count Europe as one, well, they'd probably be bigger. But Australia has got a big populace that is into pinball. We always have, and I think it's been part of our culture. I say that it's because we've had a very sort of beachy, surfy, sort of sun and sand type culture. Pinball machines were in every milk bar, corner shop, surf shop, everywhere. We just had pinball machines on location everywhere, not just in arcades, but everywhere you could buy food, there was always a pinball machine. Huh. Yeah. Okay. It's a huge part of our culture. Yeah. Yeah, and even New Zealand has quite a few. Yeah, for sure, same thing. Who has more players, do you think? Sweden, by the way, is fourth with just over 1,000 players. It looks like Germany is fifth with 973. So who has more players, do you think, out of New Zealand, France, and the United Kingdom?
    55:46
    Ranked players. Ranked? Don't look. Ranked players, right? Sorry, what were they? Oh, Firefox. You're totally fucking looking. You're a dick. Just give me the answer. Well, I don't know. Who was it out of? Click, click, click. Because UK, off the top of my head, I think had 503 players. You're a dick. Is that right? Yeah. Who was it else? It was Sweden? Yeah. No, not Sweden. No, it was France and New Zealand. Okay, asshole, forget it. New Zealand has almost 1,000. I honestly would have said New Zealand because... Oh, sorry, 489. 489, I stand corrected. So they are just behind the UK, but also New Zealand is a small country as far as population goes compared to the rest of the world. So the fact that they've got nearly 500 players is fantastic. They've got an incredibly good pinball culture in New Zealand, and it's led by a few people, obviously. Oh, the Packs. Yeah, David Peck and the multiple locations that he's got. But I know that there's a few people over there that have big events. So they are cultivating that community over there. I met from New Zealand, Tyler Dipper. He's the guy who knocked off Travis Meary in the first round. Sorry, Travis. A young guy doing school in Germany got to represent New Zealand. And that guy made the playoffs. He made the top 32 out of 80 players. 80 of the best players in the world. Pretty impressive.
    57:19
    Made the playoffs, won the first round, so good for Tyler. So yeah, New Zealand's got... The reason I bring up New Zealand and Australia is you know talking to Lambo Jason we were playing right now in Germany Next year the World Championships are going to be in California Jim Belsito place It then goes in two years I believe to Austria That'll be fun with RS Pinball doing all the kinds of good things there. It goes back to North America to be determined where that will be. And then it goes back to, quote unquote, Europe or other parts of the world. Canada is part of the North American. and Lambo wants to know how do we make this happen for Australia? Yeah. Do you think Australia could? Fuck, that'd be great. It would be awesome. It's just costly for a lot of people. Or New Zealand? Same. But. It just costs money. It's double the airfare is effectively what it is. Yeah, but I don't know if that, maybe that is a factor for the IPA, but I think having the facility, having the number of games, Freddy's Pinball Paradise had, I think, 170 games. You have to have old games. You have to have EMs, and you have to have solid states and early solid states. And, you know, I know David Peck's got those. I don't know about the EMs, but boy, that would be great. Yeah, I think between three people in New Zealand, you would have all of those machines that you need. Make it happen, Peck. That would be fun. Yeah, I don't think the facilities and, you know, being able to make a venue happen with all the machines here is the issue. I think it's everybody, like everybody. Because if you think about who actually makes the finals, Australia gets two and New Zealand gets two. So there's four people that don't have to travel far. Everybody else has to travel a long distance to get here. Oh, well. If it's in Europe, 50% of people have to travel. You know what I mean? If Australia can be part of Eurovision, they can be part of the world championships. But we are. We just dare. I mean, that's what people have speculated. What happens if Australia wins Eurovision? Do we host it in Australia? So it's the same thing. It's the tyranny of distance. I know when we talk about locations, there was one that kind of popped up on your horizon, so to speak. The pastimes from Rob Burke in Ohio. I haven't been there yet. I plan on going. Well, what I can tell you, it's going to take you approximately three hours and 57 minutes to get there. From my house? Yep. Yeah, but when I go to Cleveland for Cleepin in September, maybe I can stop by there. That's right. So I can see Cleveland versus this place very, very close. What shits me, the reason why I brought that up, what fucking shits me, right, is so Rob Burke's got apparently 1,100 pinball machines in his collection. So this location's got 300 pinball machines and 150 arcades. Is that okay? Random place. Where is it going to open up? Oh, could go anywhere. oh let's open up four hours from jeff's place and you know 21 hours flight from my place thanks for rob burke he lives in ohio what do you want him to do and he's got a all some of those games as he does every year to chicago i just think it's bullshit but i just can't get to go to these places so easily like you like like it's not even you don't even have to get on a fucking plane you can drive to this place that's what's shit you don't want to make right now i'm just like you know what if i leave i could get there do a round trip in the day yeah that's that's how shitty this is that this fucking fantastic place has opened up and you can just drive there i just i'm very annoyed by that have you thought about some of the places i was kind of making a list of places i want to see that i have yet to you know the pacific pinball museum that looks pretty cool i guess there's one in florida i want to check out The one in New Jersey I want to check out. Rob Burke's place. Wizard's World in Indiana. The Dutch Pinball Museum. I think, is that in Rotterdam? I went to Amsterdam for a day, but I looked at when the museum was open. It wasn't open the day I was there. I would have made the trip. There's a place in Spain I really want to see, too. I remember the video that was done during Expo that they showed when they did the virtual ones. That looked pretty awesome. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, there's so many great places. Are there any places I'm missing that you know of? Ryan C. went to that one in Japan. He said that one was great. Yeah, yeah, yeah. My friends, James and Jackie, they're Silver Bull Planet. They just came back from that as well, said it's amazing. Yep. Fantastic. So that's closer to you than me. It is. It's still thousands of dollars.
    62:02
    Just trying to make you feel good. Nothing you can do. The damage is done. Yeah. All right. Well, let's kill some. No, I'm not going to.
    62:11
    Okay, let's have a little fun thing here to end this fine, fine podcast. And I'm pretty impressed. We filled a non-news day with some fluffy shit here. I'm pretty impressed. I'm going to give you, looking at Pinside, they do the top 100 list and all that kind of stuff. And for a while, Foo Fighters was up there. You knew it wouldn't last. It happens with every new game. It always goes to number one, and then it kind of, the dust settles. It's still at number three right now, currently. So, it's pretty good. I've taken the top ten, and I've put them into two banks based on, you know, alternating and all kinds of good stuff. You get to have these five games. Which bank do you want for your home collection, and why Marty Robbins? I'm going to start off with a tough one. This one's going to make you hurt a little bit.
    63:00
    Godzilla. I've heard you vent about that. Godzilla. Jurassic Park. Iron Maiden. You've got three Elwins games. The others are Attack from Mars and Elvira House of Horrors. That's your one bank. Okay. Or do you take Foo Fighters, Medieval Madness, Deadpool, your beloved Star Trek, and Monster Bash? Tough decision. Can I just ask a quick question? Yes. How were these banks curated? They're all in the top ten. Okay. I went back and forth. Okay. Basically, bank one is number one, four, five, eight, and nine, whereas the other one is two, three, six, seven, ten. I just didn't realize. I honestly didn't realize that Star Trek was top ten. It is. Yeah. I believe it's probably Steve Ritchie's best Stern layout. Yeah, for sure. It ain't Zeppelin. All right. So what have I got? I've got Godzilla. Godzilla, Jurassic Park, Maiden, plus Attack from Mars, Elvira House of Horrors. That's your one bank. Or Medieval Madness, Foo Fighters, Deadpool, Star Trek, Monster Bash. Okay. So what is this bank for? If I'm going to be in a tournament or just what I would have at home, one or the other, someone says, you can take these five machines for home or you can take these other five machines for home. What are you going to pick? First of all, for your home collection, these are your only five games. What's going to give you the most amount of fun?
    64:44
    Okay. Godzilla, Jurassic Park, Iron Maiden, Elvira, and Monster Bash. Not Monster Bash, Attack from Mars. It's those. Really? Yep. Do you want to know why? Yes. Okay. Because Godzilla, as much as I played it last weekend, just one game, I went, yep, it's fun. I still think that if I had more time on that and I could get into its richness, I would enjoy it a lot more. So I still think it's got something to give.
    65:15
    Jurassic Park? You've owned it. I regret selling it. I had to sell it at the time. I needed the money. I want to play it some more. Attack from Mars, I always want to play it. Always. I've never gotten sick of that game. And I'm pretty down on DMD games from that era. Attack from Mars is one of the exceptions. I absolutely love that game. Again, Iron Maiden, I've still got unfinished business with it. I just still, it was the music that really got to me, but I think if I could either turn the music down or change the music, I would still love that. And you know I'm a huge fan of Elvira House of Horrors. I just think it is just a joy to flip. And I know it's easier than most games, and I think that's appeal. I mean, if I've got three Elwins which aren't easy games, give me an easy game in the mix. There you go. There's my five. I don't know which one I would pick. I mean, they're great games. Godzilla is spectacular. Jurassic Park, I don't know what it is about Jurassic Park. It's most people's favorite game as far as like a perfect game for rules and stuff. You've owned it. I loved it. And yes, rules wise it is, I think, one of the best rules in recent times because you don't have to play the game the same way each time. And that's what I found a lot with a lot of these games. Once you play them enough, it becomes Groundhog Day. You're doing the same path each time. Jurassic Park is the epitome of it never being the same game when you hit the start button again. Hmm. I got to be careful in case Greg Bones is listening to this. You know what bothers me in Jurassic Park? What's that? The theme. It's such a fun game. I can't stand the theme. Oh, another thing. One of my favorite movies of all time. I remember it was when I thought, come on, Spielberg, you can do better. You are the greatest, perhaps, director, not named Coppola or Scorsese or Hitchcock or all the legends. But that is the epitome of a popcorn movie where, you know, Sam Neill's fumbling for... Wow. Are you... I've seen it once. I never need to see that movie ever again. Are you... Not joking. Are you dead inside? No. You have a cold, black, unbeating heart. Do I hate CGI? Hmm, maybe that's the factor. It was, for the first time ever, something looked actually real. Yeah, it did. It looked pretty good. Yeah, it was. It didn't sound real. There's no proof that dinosaurs could roar or speak. No, that actually probably is true. though they've probably rebuilt their larynxes from their bones, possibly.
    68:03
    No, fine. It's fine. If you've only watched that movie once and you didn't like it, then there's no point in having a conversation about it. There's nothing that could ever turn you around on that. It is one of the best movies of all time. It's one of the movies that I've seen the most. Really? And, yeah, oh, I love it. Love, love, love it. Love it. I think I've seen all but maybe the third one. And I like even the new ones, which because I want to, I'm like, I'm missing something. What am I missing? And I'm just like, yeah, you're missing a heart. You're missing emotions. You're missing so much in your life. But, you know, again, it's like you try to tell me how amazing Godfather is. I don't care. Don't you? It's even worse. Don't you fucking dare? No, no, no, no, no. I'm not going to do anything. But what I'm saying is if you're like you're there going, don't you dare? Whereas I'm saying, you know what? That's OK. that you don't like Jurassic Park, even though it is one of my absolute favorite movies of all time. So, it's top five. Yeah, I've seen them all. I want to like them. I'm like, eh, it's fine. It's a good time. Yeah, it just does. So, I guess that's why the game, like, I could care less. Yeah, that's fair enough. It makes me laugh. It's funny. The rules of Jurassic Park are so fucking good as a pinball machine. You're right about all those games, right? There's not one way to play it. Avengers can be a little grindy. that's on this list of five I gave you. So that's a good list. You, you got five games. You got Godzilla, you got Jurassic Park, you get a attack from Mars, which is spectacular. Maiden and Elvira house of horrors. You didn't choose Foo Fighters. Jury's still out, but my God, is that a fun game? And just crazy. It really is. It really is great. Medieval madness. No, not one of my favorites. Don't like it. Boring. The only thing I don't like about it is the trolls. Like everything else. I don't mind the trolls. I just, It's one of those games that I played so much that I got sick of it, and now I just find it a bit blah. Deadpool, I love. So hold on a second. Medieval Madness. You love playing Attack from Mars, but not Medieval Madness. Yep. And they're almost the same game. No, they're not. Pretty close. I mean, the difference is Martian, Attack. What's the difference? Well, you could say Elvira House of Horrors is exactly the same game because the shots are all in the same location. Medieval and Attack from Mars are pretty fucking close. No, they don't play the same at all. And do you know what? Well, okay. I never even looked at them side by side and realized that they had a very similar layout until maybe five years ago when someone pointed it out. I never thought there was anything remotely similar about those two games. It's interesting because on Medieval Madness, I'm less afraid to go for the castle, whereas Attack from Mars, I'm scared to go for the saucer. Oh, yeah. Yeah, for sure. And you've got to bring the visor down. That's difficult too. It's because the center shot in Attack from Mars rebounds a lot quicker. Yeah, okay. So, yeah, it's reflexes. Yeah. But also, again, depends on the medieval madness. Some medieval madnesses, a shot to the castle is a set of drain every time. So you said no to Star Trek. You know, we both admit that's probably Steve Ritchie's best layout. You didn't want that. I would take that over. Definitely Elvira is my least favorite on that one. But Monster Bash, that's the easy game to compare for the Elvira one. You know, and a lot more cool stuff in there. Look, I think the thing that was happening when you were asking me about these games was, do I feel like I've got unfinished business with them? I have completed Monster Bash many times. I don't. It's fine. Star Trek, I'm done. Like, I've got no more I can get out of it. You know what I mean? Like, that's what I'm saying. Deadpool, I would love to play it again, but I'm not compelled to. Foo Fighters. Oh, let me tell you about Deadpool. Remember our signing of the IFPA? They are probably removing earplugs. That's a thing of the past. You know what else is a thing of the past, too, on Deadpool? And I'm going to do this, too, on tournaments. So when they're playing Deadpool in IFPA tournaments, they disable the snicked. To stop double scoring? Yeah. just double, triple, you know, you can get 5x on that thing. They stop it. Yeah, but it's not. Yeah, I'm going to be sure. They disabled it. I like it. If they want to take fun away from Al, let's do it. Go for it. Just fine. I like it. Okay, fine. I guess, has it become that in a tournament, that's all the people do is just trap up and go for the sneak shot? Perhaps. Yeah. Yeah, okay. And if that's the case, then yeah, change it. But otherwise, it's not the easiest shot, but maybe for the top tournament players it is an easy shot. I think it's probably an easy shot for many people in that high-caliber tournament, for sure. Yeah, yeah, that's what I'm saying. Cool. Marty, we made something out of nothing. Ah, story of our lives. This bundle of sweet fuck-all, we put it all together, and we made an episode out of this. Well, we did actually have some good things to talk about, Jeff. Don't be like that. Well, we wasted a lot of time on Jurassic Park being a good movie. Other than that, it was a decent show.
    73:27
    If people want to reach us and maybe vent, do we even have emails? I don't think we did. Did we? I can't remember. No. But you can email us at funaroundpinball.gmail.com, please do. No, they don't. Funaround Pinball Podcast is at Instagram and at funaroundpin on Twitter. So there you go. Communicate with us, people. No, you know what? Maybe this is a sign. Maybe we just pack it in. Nobody gives a fucking shit. Yeah. That's right. If we get no emails, if we get no emails, we're not doing another podcast. There you go. Set it. What if we just get one? Oh, by the way, I know we'll get one because there's a couple of people that always do that when we ever put those threats out. But you think we're joking. We're not. Ed from Denmark. Yes, for sure. So you know how we were at TPF and we had those pictures of you and I with the final logo? We signed a few of those. I gave him one and I said to Ed the biggest cunt in Denmark maybe the world he loved it what a treasure and there's going to be one lucky person in the world that's got a very special signed one as well I'm keeping that one because Marty and I are never together we signed a bunch of extras for some we have believe it or not I know it's shocking we have a few fans and so you gave me all the signed ones I sign mine, I'm signing them. I'm like, did you just sign this cunt?
    74:55
    You're like, yeah. It was one of the highlights of TPF, was the fact that I had signed it, Damien had seen that I signed it, we just stood by, watched you signing all the cards, just looking at each other, giggling like little school girls, waiting for you to notice. And when you did, oh my god. Pay off. That's the highlight of TPF. It was the best. Speaking of the C-bomb, Jason Sudeikis, big pinhead, Ted Lasso, did a podcast with Dana Carvey and David Spade, and he talked about pinball and stuff. But he was talking about Ted Lasso, and because we dropped the C-bomb, because it's not as offensive where we are in Canada or Australia, and we do understand that it is to some other people, it's just a fucking word, man. It's just a word. We don't mean anything by it. In fact, when we use it, we do it in a loving way. We don't say it viciously. But he was talking about, on Ted Lasso, the bar owner in the Richmond area that is a big supporter of the football team. She had a line in there where she was like, ah, you stupid cunt. And Apple or whoever said, we have to remove that. We're just not ready. North America's just not ready for the C-line. Not yet. Whereas in England, whereas in Australia, here around Canada, we're like, that's nothing. Yeah. It's a term of endearment. Give us a few years. It genuinely is. It'll be part of the vocabulary in children's school programs.
    76:33
    God willing. It's just a word. It is. A word. Yeah. Anyway. All right. There you go. Later. All right. Thanks, everyone. Bye.