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The Drew and Ian Show! Episode 1 We party with Dori Ann, Dave Brennan and Darrell Van Landuyt

Poor Man's Pinball Podcast·podcast_episode·analyzed·Dec 21, 2023
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claude-haiku-4-5-20251001 · $0.030

TL;DR

Basement podcast discusses competitive growth, manufacturer comparisons, and market dynamics with industry insiders.

Summary

Drew and Ian host a casual, informal basement podcast with guests Dave Brennan (former American Pinball, pinball restorer), Dory Hill (competitive player with ~147 tournaments in one year), Darrell Van Landuyt (Racine Flippers co-organizer), and others. Discussion covers Dory's rapid competitive rise, Dave's perspectives on manufacturer build quality and business models, virtual pinball adoption, Spooky's recent game releases (Looney Tunes, Scooby-Doo), Jersey Jack's long gameplay times vs. Stern's tournament-friendly design, licensing importance, and criticism of non-licensed themes in the modern location market.

Key Claims

  • Dory played in approximately 146-147 tournaments in the past year, averaging one tournament every 2.83 days

    high confidence · Dory Hill confirmed this during the podcast, stating it was 'very close to 147' as of last week with 3 more played that week

  • Dory started playing pinball less than two years ago and is now ranked around 1,600

    high confidence · Dory stated 'a year and a half' of pinball experience and mentioned current ranking in the 1600s

  • Stern has superior build quality and reliability compared to other manufacturers, especially Pro models

    high confidence · Dave Brennan ranked Stern as #1 for reliability, citing fewer components to break on Pro versions

  • Jersey Jack games have longer play times that make them problematic for tournament use

    high confidence · Darrell Van Landuyt stated Jersey Jack games 'can't have them in a tournament' and mentioned removing Lord of the Rings for this reason

  • Spooky's pre-order deposit model provides upfront cash flow to fund production and keep workers employed

    high confidence · Dave Brennan explained Spooky's business model: 'you put down the deposit they get an influx of money right off the bat to start building these things'

  • Non-licensed games are essentially dead in the current market compared to licensed IP themes

    medium confidence · Drew stated 'non-licensed themes, 100% are probably dead for the most part on arrival' due to competition for consumer attention and money

  • Star Wars and Godzilla are the top-performing location games with strong player draw

    medium confidence · Drew emphasized Star Wars' consistent location performance and mentioned it as a superior theme choice to original designs

  • Godfather prices dropped from $12,000 to $7,500 in a couple months

    medium confidence · Drew stated 'The Godfather had like, seriously, like six or eight diverters... you can buy a Godfather for $7,500 when it was brand new, $12,000 just a couple months ago'

Notable Quotes

  • “I did the calculations. I pulled out the calculator. It's like every 2.83 days I had a tournament.”

    Dory Hill @ early segment — Demonstrates the intensity of Dory's tournament participation and rapid competitive integration

  • “The build quality is fantastic. It's really, really nice. Go, Wisconsin! It's super nice. They've really done some cool stuff to vertically integrate, making some of their own parts and controlling the quality there.”

    Dave Brennan @ mid-segment — Endorsement of Spooky's manufacturing quality and vertical integration strategy

  • “Jersey Jacks are notorious for having really wrong call times... they're catering to the home market, you know, investing in, they keep talking about how many LEDs they put in the thing.”

    Darrell Van Landuyt @ mid-segment — Identifies key design philosophy difference between manufacturers targeting home vs. location markets

  • “If you're going to put a quarter in a Paragon now, or a Star Wars, that Star Wars is taking the quarter.”

    Drew @ later segment — Illustrates market reality: licensed IP dominates player choice over original themes

  • “When you're selling a theme or a game for the entire year, and if you're not pre-selling them, then you're taking a risk because pinball buyers can be finicky.”

    Dave Brennan @ mid-segment — Explains critical cash flow difference between Spooky's pre-order model and traditional sales

Entities

Dory HillpersonDave BrennanpersonDarrell Van LanduytpersonDrewpersonIanpersonJeremy SchmitzpersonStern PinballcompanySpooky Pinballcompany

Signals

  • ?

    competitive_signal: Dory Hill achieved ~1,600 WPPR ranking in less than 2 years with ~147 tournament participations in one year

    high · Dory confirmed '1.5 years' experience and ~147 tournaments, averaging 2.83 days per tournament

  • ?

    product_strategy: Spooky's pre-order deposit model provides upfront cash flow vs. traditional year-long sales model

    high · Dave Brennan explained: 'you put down the deposit they get an influx of money right off the bat to start building these things, keeping their people working'

  • ?

    design_philosophy: Clear design divide: Jersey Jack optimizes for home collectors (long play times, many features); Stern optimizes for tournament/location play (simpler, faster)

    high · Darrell stated Jersey Jack games 'can't have them in a tournament' due to play time; Dave noted Stern Pro has 'not as much stuff to break'

  • $

    market_signal: Godfather secondary market price collapse from $12,000 to $7,500 in couple months

    medium · Drew: 'you can buy a Godfather for $7,500 when it was brand new, $12,000 just a couple months ago'

  • ~

    sentiment_shift: Normally Stern-focused players (Buffalo Pinball crew) reconsidering Spooky Looney Tunes layout

    medium · Drew noted Buffalo Pinball reviewers 'normally buy Stern' but Looney Tunes 'is getting them to think a little bit differently'

  • ?

Transcript

groq_whisper · $0.157

0:00
Christmas, Christmas, Christmas Merry Christmas time, pretty baby And the snow is falling on its mouth Christmas, Christmas Merry Christmas time, pretty baby And the snow is falling down Christmas Well, you'll be a real good-looking girl And it's all like it's all Christmas My name's Ian. My name's Drew. And we are here in Drew's basement. You can hear all the noise back there. It's exciting. We got all sorts of games going. We got some familiar faces that you guys all know. Who do we have here, Drew? We have Dave Brennan, previously from American Pinball. Pinball Restorer extraordinaire, Dave Brennan. 3D printer of penises. He does print a lot of penises. Sorry.
1:10
We've been drinking. So we decided that we... Who else is here? Oh, we'll get to... Tribe member. We're all over. Yep, we got Tribe member Daryl here. All right. Mike Williams left. He had to get back to Madison. Tribe member Sean Fraden Was also here earlier Had to get back to Madison Jeremy Schmitz could not make it tonight He was He's on a date Do you hear this? Jeremy Schmitz is on a date tonight I'll talk to you about that later Oh that poor man I meant his date Oh did you? Is it a girl? Yes Oh that poor girl Sorry Jeremy I love you brother We got Dory come over here Dory We're recording a podcast Say hi to everybody. Hi, everybody. Oh, this is Dory. So, Dory, just this week, we found out. You need to confirm this, Dory. There's some big news. Dory played in 146 tournaments this year. Is that right? How many was it? Am I right in the numbers? Yeah, it's very close to 147, but that was as of last week. Holy fuck. That doesn't include the three I just played this week.
2:21
All right. How many days are in a year? Only 100. If we divide that by pinball. I did the calculations. I pulled out the calculator. It's like every 2.83 days I had a tournament.
2:36
Jersey Jack Pinball
company
American Pinballcompany
Bounce Milwaukeevenue
District 82organization
Blackbird Barvenue
Racine Flippersorganization
Pinball Expoevent
Godzillagame
Star Warsgame
Looney Tunesgame
Scooby-Doogame
Hobbitgame
Godfathergame
Aliengame
Galactic Tank Forcegame
Ryan Clancyperson
Glenn Wechterperson

licensing_signal: Non-licensed themes effectively dead in modern market; licensed IP (Star Wars, Godzilla, Alien) dominates player choice and location revenue

high · Drew: 'non-licensed themes, 100% are probably dead for the most part' and 'Star Wars is taking the quarter' over unlicensed alternatives

  • ?

    manufacturing_signal: Spooky implementing vertical integration of parts manufacturing to improve build quality and control

    high · Dave Brennan: 'They've really done some cool stuff to vertically integrate, making some of their own parts and controlling the quality there'

  • ?

    product_concern: Galactic Tank Force criticized for confused theming (tanks, cows, ice cream) lacking editorial oversight

    medium · Drew criticized excessive feature creep: 'That theme could have been a cool theme if you kept it with tanks... when you start throwing cows and ice cream... that's just old guys getting cute'

  • ?

    venue_signal: Location pricing at $2 per game creates sustainability challenge; further increases to $3 would break ROI model

    medium · Drew: 'if it gets any more than that, if we start talking like $3, they're just going to lose all that location stuff... no way someone's going to buy a game and try to charge someone $3'

  • ?

    business_signal: Smaller manufacturers face cash flow crunch if game sales don't meet projections; dependency on theme success

    high · Dave explained: 'if they're not producing the numbers of games that they're anticipating, it's hard to keep those people working and keep the lights on'

  • ?

    technology_signal: Virtual pinball community growing substantially post-COVID with online leagues, Twitch presence, and accessibility as entry point

    medium · Dave noted: 'virtual has really gone in a positive direction, especially in the last three years since COVID. So many people have jumped in'

  • ?

    personnel_signal: Dave Brennan transitioned from American Pinball employee to independent restorer/expert

    high · Introduced as 'previously from American Pinball' and 'Pinball Restorer extraordinaire'

    • Good for you. So for you guys who don't know Dory, Dory is an amazing woman who only started in pinball, what, a couple years ago? A year and a half ago. Okay. So we are two years in. She's been playing in all of our local tournaments. Dory is an amazing woman. her husband Erasmus is here. But when I heard that, I was like, because every week she's at District 82. She went to Madison recently, right? I owe Pinball Bar with Mike Williams who just left. Playing in all these tournaments, and she's getting better. She's moving up the rankings. Where are you ranked right now?
    3:12
    I don't want to put you on the spot, but this is amazing. So I have to be ranking, I'm like in the 1600s right now. And how long have you been playing pinball? Less than two years. A year and a half. And she is so much better than I already am. So much better. And I'm better than Drew. So if you think about it, Drew sucks at pinball. That's for you, Tim Lee. All right, so tell me more about how did you get into pinball? I happened to stop at Bounce Milwaukee for just a random pinball night with some friends. I hadn't played pinball in forever. They're like, hey, they got like 10, 15 pinball machines. Let's go play. And then the owner was there, Ryan Clancy, and he's like, hey, we got a tournament that Friday. Why don't you come play? I was like, all right, sounds good. And I did fairly well, and it just started the addiction. He's like, well, starting to know people in the pinball community. Other people are like, hey, well, we have a tournament this week at Blackbird Bar. You should come to that too. Go to that. Oh, we love Blackbird. Blackbird's an amazing place. We love Blackbird. Tim Lee calls it the pirate bar. He does. You don't know why.
    4:16
    He did not pay attention that night. No, no, he's never been there. All right. So that sounds awesome. You did so well, you closed Bounce. Good job.
    4:26
    So he's the reason Bounce is no longer in business. So do you have a favorite game or a go-to game that you love? Right now, my favorite is Godzilla. And I have to thank you. Shout out. Thank you for inviting me over tonight. I hit my very first one billion game on Godzilla tonight.
    4:44
    Did you GC it? No. Because GC is like three bills. Not Drew's. Was NHL here? Drew does not suck at football. Regardless of what other people may say.
    4:59
    I might take the glass off occasionally. How many times have you hit a billion on these machines? Many times. Really? Oh, sure. We got a million on Godzilla. Or a billion on Godzilla. I see a six billion on Star Wars. I'm five on Godzilla. I'm six billion on Star Wars. What? I'm over a billion on Deadpool. And what's impressive is Drew cannot count to a billion, not even close.
    5:28
    He's not even very sure of what that number actually represents. And when Drew's here by himself, he can't keep the glass on or his pants on. It's just how it works. That's how he plays his ball.
    5:40
    His ball. Nope, ball. It's a ball. One is gray and doesn't work as well. So I've seen it. Wendy, come over here. We're recording a podcast, actually. Oh, we have more people here. Let's go. Everyone stop playing, and now they want to be part of this. The Jeronians show. What do we got? Scott and Wendy's are friends of mine. I work with Scott. Scott, Wendy, tell them how great this place is. These are people who don't normally play pinball. Tell me how cool I am. Yeah.
    6:06
    Tell them your experience here at Drew's Basement. Drew's Basement is amazing. You can have every pinball machine you can think of, and if you're a beginner, it's fun, and if you're a pro, it's fun. That was a good synopsis. So what about you, Scott? Absolutely. And if Joe Massimino sees this or hears this, Drew is naked right now. Just so you know, Joe. Well, I told you guys, I don't play with my pants on. Just because you guys are over doesn't mean I'm going to change anything. All I can do is hang on my shoes.
    6:37
    So we're having a good time in Drew's basement here. Ian and I record. I don't know where Ian went. Where did Ian go? It's hard to record a podcast without him. But here we are. So having a great time We're here with Tribe Member Darryl say hi to the folks Hello everyone I am the chosen one You are the chosen one You're Tribe Member number 46 Sure I was chosen The only person that was chosen I can't remember the only numbers I know There's a couple Glenn Wechter because he's 7 So we always joke 007 But yeah I really can't keep him track But yeah Darryl's a recent inductee To Tribe Members he's here Dave Brennan, Tribe Member number 9, right? Is that correct? Okay, number 9, Dave Brennan. Say hi to the folks at home. What's up, everybody?
    7:24
    What do you think of Drew's basement? It's great. A lot of space. Pat Moore in here. Yeah, well, we're negotiating with the wife right now. I'm currently in negotiations, as marriage often is, and we're going to figure it out for the people. And Ian's back from touching his dick or something. Very good. The dick hole was wet, so I had to dry it off. What are we talking about? What's next, Drew? I was just asking people what they think of the basement, what we're doing down here. I haven't seen a single Center Post, everybody. He's really growing up. Center Post Cafe? Yeah. It's still here. He's got rubber bands on the outline. We do. I know the joke is. Flippers are extra long. There's little paint sticks tied to the ends of them. Yeah, they came over. They said, Drew, why do you got all these glass pieces stashed in the corner? All the games don't have glass on them. I'm like, that's how we do it here. at the Center Post Cafe. Yep, yep. But yeah, Dave said we have room for more. Yep, P3 is coming, Dave. All right. So P3 is on its way. Dave, what's been your jam lately? What game have you been playing a lot of? Well, it changes.
    8:30
    Recently got Tommy, Doctor Who, new virtual pinball, and Scooby-Doo. Wait, you got a new virtual pinball? Suck it, American Pinball. Suck it. I got to sell that one yet. Okay. So what's different with this other one? It's got more bells and whistles. It's got, like, force, the haptic feedback. Haptic feedback, yeah. And it's got solenoids on the side walls of the cabinet. So as a true pinball guy, as you are, Dave's more steeped in his hobby than probably anyone in the history of the world. His 3D printer is used for pinball parts. Yeah, he doesn't just make dicks with his 3D printer. And not like us. Coming soon, four-man pinball fix. We're going to send them 3D printed.
    9:19
    Shipping is going to be $2.75. It's a very small package. It's fine. We will send small packages out to everybody. There is not a lot of bubble wrap there, guys. We'll be okay. What is the reason between buying virtual pinball? Give us a little take on that. Well, I look at it as an opportunity to try out some of the games that, you know, you could really put some time on them. Like, it's not realistic to have every single game out there to be able to practice it. Just try it.
    9:53
    You know, you can kind of figure out some of the rules and things, especially if you're going to be going to a tournament. And you're like, hey, I want to try this obscure title that I've never played before. at least you can get a feel for, all right, at least I know this is how I want to approach the game. But on top of that, there's, so that's one use.
    10:16
    It's also great for people that don't have a heck of a lot of space and want to have multiple games. I'll tell you that the technology and the programming on virtual has really gone in a positive direction, and especially in the last three years since COVID. So many people have jumped in to the virtual pinball community. There's tons of people on Twitch.
    10:43
    I'll sing the praises of Game Club Central. He's on there all the time. Him and MPT3K do a great job with representing the virtual pinball community. There's online leagues. There's all kinds of people getting involved in that way. and no longer, I think, is it just the physical.
    11:08
    He's living in the Matrix, everybody. Yeah, we crossed the boundary. Red pill, please. Right, because you talked about the P3, which is a hybrid, right? Fair enough.
    11:19
    Which is amazing, by the way. Right, and I think you've got to have tiers within pinball because virtual is a great way where you can experience that just on your personal computer. You don't have to have a cabinet, but it's a great way that you can catch the bug for a much cheaper price. How many times have you heard somebody say, oh, I played Pinball Arcade, the app, and I got hooked, and then I went out on a location. Shout out Glenn Wechter. Exactly. Touche. I was in that camp too. Sorry, is this visual pinball? Is that what it is? Yeah, there's pinball X, pinball future pinball. But this is a visual, right? Is it called visual pinball? Yeah, there's a few different platforms. And it's fairly realistic, right, for the most part? Yeah, it's pretty good. If you have the right setup, you can really minimize lag. Well, like you said, with the lag, because even some of those arcade one-ups and stuff, that was always the big downfall, right? Oh, when I was at Expo. What were those? I don't know. Cat Legends, I think, or something. Those things can cat suck my penis. They're terrible. 3D print and suck my penis. I hit that button, and it still hasn't registered.
    12:43
    I'm still waiting for that flipper. Good, good, man. So what's the newest game you bought? Well. Scooby? Scooby's the newest. Scooby-Dooby-Doo. I've been loving Scooby. Shout out to Spooky. Scooby's good, man. And I'm getting no Looney Tunes. Getting a loony. Yep. You a cartoon fan like I am I know you are Dave No see that why Dave and I are kindred spirits cause Yeah Looney Tunes looks amazing right Yeah What do you think of the Taz sculpt Oh, for fuck's sake. You know, it'd be cool if it was like... in the tornado. Oh! See, you didn't even hear me say that. We learned a couple things. We learned that Dave doesn't listen to us anymore. Yeah. And we learned that Drew is right. Bug, are you fucking listening? Yeah. It's not just me. I went on a whole rant. Ian's like, why are we doing this? There's now two people, bud. Two. That was my thing. It's okay. I'll 3D print a tornado. Thank you. I said they should either do that and or make it spin really fast. Oh, yeah. Right? Because right now it just kind of spins like a slow little turntable. Yeah. And it's like, that's not Taz. Amp it up. Yeah. You can pick the regulator off that thing. Let her fucking rip, man. let that thing spin smoke who cares let's do it but no I'm really glad to hear you say that yeah let's work on a 3D print because you're right it would be really cool to have that tornado right but to have it spin really fast would be even better obviously yeah but that's just I mean you don't really fit in or anything no I get it you just I might like I said I haven't been you know I had Alice Cooper I like that you have an Alice Cooper you like it I got rid of mine, but I did enjoy it. I think Looney Tunes is a really good effort on their part. This is their most stern-looking layout that they've made. Yeah, that's true. That's a fit. And I think this one is so funny. I was listening to Buffalo Pinball. They do a video. Edit, edit, edit.
    14:50
    We're going to edit that out. I'm just going to put it in poor man's pinball pocket. Go ahead. Keep going. Anyway, it's Kevin and Nick. Nick always shits on anything that Spooky does. And when this came out and they were reviewing, because, you know. Hang on, actually, have they ever owned any Spooky games? Not yet.
    15:13
    They've never purchased a Spooky game. No, typically Stern fanboys. Okay. But it was interesting to hear, like, the people that normally buy Stern, when they saw this layout, it's getting them to think a little bit differently and, you know, second-guess spooky. And I think, you know, I think they're learning that, you know, they don't have to do upper play fields all the time. But being a guy who can restore games and fix games and do all the stuff like you do, Dave, and he's a master at it, by the way. I've seen it. I've witnessed it. What is your take on their quality and their builds and all that stuff? Yeah, the latest one that I got is Scooby, and I'm happy to say that the build quality is fantastic. It's really, really nice. Go, Wisconsin!
    16:10
    It's super nice. They've really done some cool stuff to vertically integrate, making some of their own parts and controlling the quality there.
    16:24
    It's, I mean, for what you're paying to get the collector's edition, it's, I mean, the bang for your buck is there with all the stuff in it. Always. Do you feel, though, like their first runs, they have more issues than most in their airing them out? I would always recommend, like, I purposely waited like an hour or two before I put them on. Okay, sure. It just, I don't need to be on the front of the line. No, I understand. And the nice thing about this, the nice thing that Spooky does compared to other manufacturers is, like, I'll get a spot. I know that I'm going to get the thing. We are not sponsored by Spooky. Yeah, I know. So, the, it's nice to know that, like, all right, I can anticipate when this thing is going to come. so I don't need to, unlike Stern where it's like they have,
    17:21
    as soon as they announce it, you're going to usually get your game. If you're getting a pro. Within a couple weeks. Right. Sure, sure, sure. This one you can kind of anticipate and scrape together the money and be ready for the first game. Okay, so you're in like number 300, 400, whatever it is. Yeah, middle of the pack, I'm sure. Dave, I got a question for you. I got a question because I like the drama of pinball. Could you give me a breakdown, top to worst, of manufacturers as far as build quality? Because you've owned them all.
    17:52
    I haven't owned a Jersey Jack yet. Okay. No, I haven't owned that. So I can't say, like, I've been under the hood for those. but as far as like reliability goes I think still Stern is probably one of the better ones especially if you're in pros Stern number one okay because there's not as much stuff to break on pros absolutely true and then breaking news here breaking news but unfortunately everybody else kind of shuffles in line behind that with I would still kind of put in those tiers because Jersey Jack and Spooky and American and Pinball Brothers and CGC, I've heard nothing but great things about. My Master Bash was bulletproof as it was, no, it was bulletproof too. It was a phenomenal game that always worked for me. and never had to lift the glass. That's great. Yeah, I was very fortunate. I hope you cleaned it a couple times.
    19:06
    Dude, it was such a beautiful game. I cleaned it like every other week. He 3D printed a dick for Dracula. It was amazing. Oh!
    19:14
    It was so nice. All right, so anyway. Okay, so build quality. Once you get past Stern, it's kind of all jumbled together. Yeah, I mean, as far as, like, reliability and kind of working out the bugs, why do you think that is? we already talked about it, breaking news Stern doesn't have as much in it the more things that you put in there the more that you have to fiddle with the mechs to make them work right so you hope that they go through and do the quality control wait, other companies put more in their games than Stern?
    19:54
    yeah you're the biggest Stern fanboy I love Stern I love my stones. But to Dave's point, because they fucking work. Well, that's always been their business model since Sega, you know, Data East. Sure. Let's make them work. Yeah. It's just they have a different business mindset. You mean to make money? Right. Because they're looking at everything cost-wise. is to, like, how can we deliver the most amount of fun with the least amount of money? Sure. Right. And then big themes. Will you count up the number of coils in Godzilla and compare that to just about any other game? Well, if you want to go on coil count. Right.
    20:44
    But coils are attached to mats, right? I know. Right. That's a joke. Yeah. True. Coil, not coitus. Yeah. Foil. Stern has four. Two flippers, two slingshots. Done.
    20:59
    Put in a lot of ramps. And they got a lot of switches. That's right. Switches, a lot of ramps. Yeah. But no, I'm saying to you that you're right, because you pull up in a Jersey Jack game, right, and there's just coils and wires for days. Yeah. Investing more in the bling. I would say that's Jersey Jack's thing. I'd rather talk about Queenstown. Yeah. What's your take on all the diverters in Jersey Jack games? Diverters? Divertergate. I do like that to change the ball path. You guys are nerds. To change that up is pretty cool. I do like that.
    21:33
    Because the Godfather had like, seriously, like six or eight diverters. Yeah, I thought it shot good. I liked it. It was. I thought Elton John shot really well as well. But the biggest problem is now you can buy a Godfather for $7,500 when it was brand new, $12,000 just a couple months ago. Daryl, tell me about Godfather. How did you like it? I played one ball, got about three or four multi-balls, and stopped playing it. Wow. I was done. I just walked away. That's super impressive, your one ball. That's amazing, man. That's a lot of stuff. What is your thoughts on... Daryl does reviews for a living. Daryl, what are your thoughts? Yes, what are your thoughts on the order of pinball manufacturers manufacturers, games that you like to play as they go down? Because you are very knowledgeable when it comes to all these games. Darrell, how long is what, about 20 games, give or take? Yeah. All right, Darrell.
    22:28
    Manufacture-wise, what gets you excited? I mean, I like the Jersey Jack games. I love Hobbits. The only issues that I have with the Jersey Jack games, especially the older ones, is that you can play forever. You can't have them in a tournament.
    22:50
    I've had them where nobody will play with me at the house. What Jersey Jack games have you owned? Hobbit. Hobbit, Dial Dead.
    23:02
    I think those are the only two that I've owned. How are those as far as, like, maintaining? Everything built quality-wise good? I've never had to repair anything on them. Quality-wise is great. Good job. Was your dragon working on Hobbit? Yeah. Okay. Yeah, dragon worked great. But, yeah, game time is something. Daryl and I run Racine Flippers, so monthly tournament. And that's something we certainly take into consideration. I got rid of Lord of the Rings for that reason because you just can't have them in the tournament. They just take way too long to play. You've got to keep up the flow. Jersey Jacks are notorious for having really wrong call times.
    23:48
    I mean, it's obvious that they're catering to the home market, you know, investing in, they keep talking about how many LEDs they put in the thing. Like, each game has more LEDs than the last, you know, tons of multi-balls.
    24:04
    It's definitely geared towards that home collector that wants that theme. not necessarily thinking about the tournament. I'd say Godfather, they failed on that theme 1,000%. Let's shift gears a little bit here because Dave has worked for American Pinball on the path. So Dave obviously has an insight into some of the manufacturing, some of the different business models, different things that are going on, as he alluded to. What companies do you think are not going to make it the next couple of years? Wow, you just like really leaned into that fucker. Jesus, a little tact, you know? Hard-hitting journalism here. Drew just threw this. Hey, I know you work for American Pinball. Hey, any company going to fail that rhymes with American Pinball?
    24:58
    It's American Pinball. Jesus. Gosh. I honestly wasn't implying that, but I'm serious because we talked about CGC. Obviously, Stern's going to be cash-plush for a while. Jersey Jack's obviously doing okay. What do you see, though, being an industry insider? Well, I mean, I can't. This is what the people want to know.
    25:24
    I can't speculate on it. Where's Colin in all this? Where's Kaneda? Where's Colin? Colin and Kaneda. I can't speculate on everybody's financial situation, but you have to think of like... It's like Gary Stern's never been on our podcast. Yeah, this is why. You've got to think about their source of income, right? And when you look at the smaller companies, you've got to think when they release a title, they're selling that title for the entire year and the it makes it that much more important for that that launch to be successful and to get those sales at the beginning Which is why I brought up how Spooky has that model where you put down the deposit They get an influx of money right off the bat to start building these things, keeping their people working. Now, if you're selling that same title... And two themes at a time, it seems, almost lately. Well, so when you're selling a theme or a game for the entire year, and if you're not pre-selling them, then you're taking a risk because pinball buyers can be finicky. The next Moose Turn is going to come out in another two months or three months. So they're going to see the next new shiny thing, and they're going to want to go after that. They're going to lose interest in what you have. so if you don't have money coming in the door how are you keeping these people paid how are you keeping your workers on the line this is a skilled trade that how do you keep all those microwaves going exactly yeah so if that's that's what i'm saying is it's if if they're not producing games it's really hard if they're not producing the numbers of games that they're they're anticipating, it's hard to keep those people working and keep the lights on. What did you think of Galactic Tank Force?
    27:35
    Galactic Tank Crap? That game is terrible. Tell me how you feel. I didn't know by the name. They changed it to Galactic Tank Crap. Oh!
    27:50
    Harsh! The art's nice. As a game, it's flashy. It gets people's attention. But I don't know. It's a game about ice cream and I don't know. All right, so I would agree. That theme could have been a cool theme if you kept it with tanks. Yes. But when you start throwing cows and ice cream and all sorts of weird shit, that's just old guys getting cute with a product that they just were able to have no edit, right? No edit. No editors. They took a lot of drugs that night. Yeah, it was like Peter Jackson made a pinball theme. He needs an editor. Big time. Because all his movies are like four hours long. So with Galactic Tank Force, 100%, they needed an editor to say, maybe ice cream isn't the most motivating way to play pinball. Thoughts? I agree. Yeah. You should. You fucking should. All right. Ice cream is great, but it's a terrible pinball theme. Did I hit it? Did I get it? You know, when I think tanks, I think ice cream. Tanks and ice cream, baby. It was a weird, weird thing. The 60s did something to these guys, and I want to know what it was. Oh, shit. Yeah, this is an acid flashback pinball machine. I listened to that Dennis Nordman deal at Expo. Yeah, we were there. And I respect the hell out of Dennis Nordman. He's made some great games. He's done a lot of great things for his community. but that whole thing about it was all about the toys and this and that it went too far into the weeds Acid Flashback game man they should have renamed it my point is though as we were talking before there's a reason that Star Wars still does the best on location for a lot of people because it's fucking Star Wars and that die hard pinheads like us say oh this game sucks or whatever well guess what People love fucking Star Wars, right? So, you know, if you're running a company and you're trying to make money, get fucking Star Wars. I guess is my, you know. Or Turtles. Your version of Star Wars. Yeah, whatever it is. So I've been saying that for years, and once again, I'm not a Canada marketing expert, but I do know. Oh, you are, true. I do know that Star Wars sells better than a tank game about ice cream. Right. It just does. Don't forget the cows. Cows are important. Yeah, cows. And general whatever his face is. We were talking about it earlier, a similar story as Black Knight Sword of Rage.
    30:33
    Outside of the pinball community, who that knows what that is, right? If you don't follow. Right. So you're going to, like you said, you go to your distributor or even you see games in a row on location. Yeah, you're not going to go to that. Yeah, that's not one that's necessarily going to. So then here's my question. Okay, we're talking about all of these no-name games, the non-licensed games. Now, what non-licensed game is out there then that people are like, oh my God, this is so great? Because we're all talking about Star Wars and Godzilla.
    31:11
    I'll just say that non-licensed games, or non-licensed themes, 100% are probably dead for the most part on arrival. This isn't the 80s and 90s where we didn't give a shit. We could go, Paragon, sweet, a fucking flying lion. That's awesome. I'm going to play this game. There's nothing else to do with my time. Now we're competing with so much more of your money, your time, everything. So if you're going to put a quarter in a Paragon now, if it was released, or a Star Wars, that Star Wars is taking the quarter. That costs like two bucks now on location. The last one I went to, and I sat there and witnessed people stick in two bucks. They were playing Toy Store or whatever. Lost all three balls. They were done in like a minute. So two balls, one minute. Well, that was a waste of $2. That's the first thing that comes out of their mouth. They're not going to put in all that $2. No, no. They'll try it once, but... I think that's... But it did get them to stick their money in because they had a recognizable thing. They were willing to put in the $2. Sure.
    32:37
    That's how they got the initial $2. And it goes to show the reason that it's $2 is because of the price tag on those games. Well, you've got to put $2 on it if you're going to buy a $12,000 game. Well, that's the thing now. I mean, the cost, because as we know, you know, the raw thrill games get a lot more money than pinball, right? Like when you got King Kong or you got Jurassic Park and it's like immersive thing, kids are more likely to stick money in there than they are into a pinball machine, even with the same theme, right? Right. So the short answer is just dollar for dollar. It's just easier to do that. and it is sad because if it gets any more than that, if we start talking like $3, they're just going to lose all that location stuff, right? Because there's no way someone's going to buy a game and try to charge someone $3. Or the return on investment is not going to make sense. So once again, we're back to Stern who sells, you know, we can argue the pro is still a reasonable value.
    33:42
    Bullshit, bullshit. Well, but comparatively, you know, so now you stick a dollar in a stern, you know, it's a little easier to get to $4,000 or $5,000, and then you can resell that machine and still make money on the whole idea. Actually, when we were at Expo, the best deal at Expo was actually Alien. Which one? Alien. $79.99. Yeah. Brand new. Yeah. The new Ripley edition. I have the standard, and they added the freaking light-up side blades. And I go, like, hey, can I get those lit-up side blades? No, it's a special cabinet. It's like, you sons of a bitch. Yeah. And I'll say, like, for you guys who haven't played Alien, I'm sure most of you guys have, but, you know, I'm not an Alien fan, per se, but holy cow, is that game immersive. It's got everything you need in a pinball game. Hold on, I'm going to Daryl. Daryl, what are your thoughts on Alien? I like Alien. It's a great game. I mean, you got, you know, when you start it off, you get to choose one of two movies that you get to play.
    34:46
    I don't know. Overall, I think it's a greatly built game. It's got a lot going on and a lot to do in there. I mean, I'd buy one. Hold on, hold on. I'm not done with Daryl yet. So, Daryl, out of all these new releases, we've had a few in the last couple of years here. So, which ones got you most excited, theme-wise, playing-wise? Tell me your tale, brother. Which one are we three-printing a dick for? No, no, no, no. How about Labyrinth? We can't see Exciting Man. I want to know more. Labyrinth was cool. I'd like to see where they're going to be going with that, seeing their entry-level company.
    35:23
    I mean, there's a lot of power behind everyone that's in that company. I'm assuming barrels of fun. They're going to have a ton of fun. Barrels of it. But, yeah, I mean, latest, I like my Godzilla Premium. That's, like, number one on my list.
    35:44
    That's, like, top Foo Fighters. Foo Fighters has great flow. Shout out Jack Danger. You have both of those games. What's a game you don't own that you'd want to own today from the last two years? Daryl, Mr. Moneybags. He would have bought it. I know. This guy, people make jokes about me. This guy is so unassuming. You go to his beautiful house. Him and Amanda are great. And every time I go there, he's like, hey, Drew, I bought two more games. And I'm like, what? Where did you get these? I don't know. They fell off a truck. And I'm like, okay, cool. The difference between you two is he didn't start a podcast calling himself the poor man. Okay? So you can just shut it. Touche. This is why we're the Drew and Ian show. You bought too many fucking games. We can't do the truth. Go ahead, Darrell. What do you got? And also, you know, Amanda pays for half of most of them, so that kind of helps, too.
    36:40
    I don't know, but if I had to choose a game right now that I don't have that's come out in the last two years, I'd probably choose Elton John. Wow. I mean, I love the flow of the game. Not a huge Elton John fan, but the way the game plays, the way the flippers feel, the way the modes are, everything that's in it, it just feels like it's going to be a great game. This is a money's no object choice. Yeah, but now let's go to that. Now, value, you're actually going to buy this game. Now what are you choosing? Because you're probably not going to choose Elton John because you're going to have to shell out $12K for that, right? Correct. Which doesn't make a lot of sense financially. Right. I mean, are we counting like Elvira? Yep. Anything that you can buy today at New Inbox. Whoa, now we're just opening up a can of worms. So you can buy it at New Inbox, and you're actually going to purchase it, not like it's too expensive, like Elton John, or whatever. What are you getting? Well, I can tell you the next new game that's on my list is going to be a Jurassic Park.
    37:47
    Premium or pro? If they're building the premiums, I'm planning on getting the premium. it's a great game good shots you mean Dino Adventureland? yes as Ian so aptly coined it a couple years ago yup ok Dave you're next any game that's in production right now but you need to be able to I don't want to say because I know you can afford any game but you have to say I can see the value in this and I'm going to purchase it what would it be? well I already said I'm getting one of these but besides that yeah funny with no object probably get a labrador okay and labrador is a good choice and by the way dollar for dollar might have more in it than most games you're a little over 10k right but the game is loaded and it's got everything it's like a premium plus yeah exactly And even if you buy the top or you're at like 11K or whatever, it's a pretty amazing package. Shout out to Brian Savage and his crew there. Like, once again, can't say enough about what they did. And to Daryl's point, like, holy cow, for a new company to come out of the gate. You know I love Spooky but you know America Most Haunted vs Labyrinth for your first game Like that a huge huge win This is so much Other than the live stream which was terrible but everything else went really smooth. Sure, sure. And they've sold out now, right? And the fact that they came to a major show with games and they had games ready to sell, that was a huge plus because they were followed the launch up with a place where people could play it and then it gets um it gets on social media it gets in front of cameras i mean they knew what they were doing i mean basically selling i don't know if they sold everything out but it was close to well because they're only at i think 1100 units they're definitely close yeah if they have it they they will um i i'm just really excited because apparently there's rumors that they have fifth element which you know i'm not like like i like the movie it's fine but once again i could see them doing a really good job with that making another showstopper so kudos to them and what they're doing well and it's all about so we're talking about the licensing and you know fun and all that stuff and i was going of bringing up with pinball brothers you know queen is a good license is anybody buying queen no why and well the layout sucks i was gonna say no thank you for saying that because yeah you're right queen queen is a huge license right it's appealing to me but i played that game a few times and i'm just like it's not for me it's just not what i wanted it to be for it's not Apollo, it's not at the same tier as where Alien is. And I think the license does help because someone's going to get interested in it. But that's like the first point of truth. But then when you step up and play it, if it's not fun, it doesn't matter if it's your dream theme. I remember Bruce Nightingale saying, like, oh, I'd love to have a Toy Story, but he hated the layout. And, you know, it just wasn't fun to play. When I heard Toy Story was announced, I was all in. When I saw Toy Story, I was all out. Because I just said, this is just a very generic game. It's a great theme, but it's not the best. The game seems generic, right? It's just kind of like, it's a pinball game. It's okay to shoot, but it's just got kind of Toy Story slapped on top of it, and it's just whatever. It's like almost there, but then like, oh. Yes. No, you're 100%. If it had Slicky the dog and it had Woody and it was like everything we loved about Toy Story. It didn't pitch to the nostalgia. Yeah, the nostalgia, all that stuff. So that's a good point. It's generational too late.
    42:25
    And I think along, too, with the releases of these new games, it's when they release them, like what show they release them at. Sure. Because you release an Expo compared to, say, Midwest Gaming Classic. I mean, you have your diehard pinball fans going to Expo every year. You know, MGC, great show, not bashing at all because I love going. But, you know, you got your pinball people, you got your arcade people, you got your tabletop, you got, you know, all of your different types of people that are not dedicated just to pinball. That's a good point because it seems like some companies cater to solely pinball people, right? And that's a mistake because you want to grow the audience, you want to grow your base. and like you said, kind of going back to the Whitewater 2 and the American Pinball stuff, you're really pandering just to the hardcore pinball people. We'll look at it and we'll say, yeah, that's pretty cool and we might even buy one, but your average person is not going to look at that and think anything about it. It's going to, for an original theme to sell well, it really needs to win in the game play or be limited like TNA. because TNA did it right they had this amazing game they said hey we're going to make 550 of them it's a small run they made them and then a couple years later they go hey we're going to make 250 more I think they pretty much sold out of them or close to whatever maybe you can get them same thing that's fine if you're only going to make less than a thousand but if you're going to make more than a thousand you've got to do something that appeals to the masses. Which even Texas Chainsaw Massacre, by the way, after talking to Ian last week, who's a horror fan, he's like, this is not a huge horror theme. It's more niche. And they're making 900 of them. That's going to be a tough sell, especially since it's a... I feel horror is polarizing in general, I think.
    44:34
    The games are ugly. They just are. Well, yeah, it's like, you know, gore and everything. Walking Dead is a great example. Yeah. Great game. It's an ugly freaking game. But I think the, you look at, like, you know, general acceptance of it and to put something in your house or, like, so you might be a fan of it. Chewy. But if you have, like, kids or if you're trying to put that on location, that might not fly with. Well, you're not going to put it in a bowling alley. Yeah. Put it in a bar, maybe. Right.
    45:11
    But that's why I think it was really smart to have the dual pack in your theme because I, at least in my opinion, I think Louis Ewing is going to sell out way bigger than Texas Chainsaw. But, you know, Texas Chainsaw might be the, it just might take a little bit longer to sell all those 8-8. And I don't want to get too far in the weeds, and we're going to wrap this up soon, but with Spooky particularly, do we think they should get rid of the pigeonhole? I know they're big horror fans, and that's what they built their company on. But should they maybe move away from that? Because you think about how successful Scooby-Doo was, how successful Rick and Morty was. No, just wait until they make Beetlejuice, and then they can get rid of it. Okay, that's fair. Well, no, no, and Beetlejuice is an amazing license, and I'm with you, and I would be in on a Beetlejuice. But you know what I'm saying, because it's like, you know, I'm not a horror fan at all, and maybe I'm being selfish, and I understand Spooky, but, you know, Spooky's not a boutique company anymore. They can say all they want that they are, but the reality is, they're making a couple thousand games a year. They're in the big boys league. so like to have these you know because like halloween you can argue that that's definitely a bigger appeal you know there's a lot of halloween fans but like once again talking to ian who's a diehard horror fan he's like no texas chainsaw mexico is a very small niche so like should they get away from that even though their name is spooky pinball that's what they've out there yeah there might be some bigger horror titles that i don't know but the 13th and jay and freddy and that kind of stuff yeah those those would probably sell really well but you know what i'm saying though right because it's like like you said either you know there's even horror fans who say i won't put this game in my house because it scares my kids or whatever you know that kind of stuff so i just think there's a little soul searching there because now they could You know, if they stuck to, you know, Scooby-Doo is horror-esque, right? It's like a campy cartoon. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Rick and Morty. That's right up my alley. That's why I got it. Oh, no. See, and that's the stuff. I'm not a horror fan, but I love that stuff. Yeah, I love, because I have Scared Stiff, Colossal 1812. Sure, sure. Stuff like that. I love the campy monsters.
    47:43
    Okay. Well, we're going to wrap it up. Yep. Hi. Love you. Seriously. Okay. Love you, love. Final thoughts about anything. What do you got? About anything.
    47:59
    No final thoughts. How many dicks are you 3D printing? He just looks at me and he's like, I've got to say something ridiculous for you. Daryl, any final thoughts? Yeah, I'm not buying any new games until next year. Any final thoughts? Dory rocks. Guys, thank you so much for listening to this awesome episode live in Drew's basement. We have some amazing people here playing pinball. It's a fun time. I want to say a couple things. Yeah, go ahead. Can I say a couple things? Yeah, you've been gone. Where have you been going? Thanks for P.N. ignoring you guys. P.N., Ian. This whole thing. I had like five pieces of pizza.
    48:39
    No, no, I wanted to say a couple thank you. Thank you to Christopher Franchi for designing our logo on short notice. He did that out of the kindness of his heart. We're going to get him on the show. He promised me, let's go and talk something other than pinball. That's what he said. So we're going to do it. We're going to learn more about Christopher Franchi. I also want to thank you for all of the responses we got since we started this new endeavor. Dave Ebeling. Yeah, Dave Ebeling. Your amazing review on Facebook. Roasting Colin.
    49:12
    Famous Twippy Colin. Yes. That was amazing. There was a lot of fun Colin talk, by the way, on our page. Go to Four Minutes Pinball Podcast, Facebook, like us, because it's been so much fun. Roasting colon. All jokes aside, Dave, thank you for the awesome review. Go check it out on the Facebook page. I just got a text from Doc. What did Doc say? He wants my address. He's going to be sending a sponsorship payment for the, quote, unquote, totally new and completely different. Nothing like the old one. Drew and Ian podcast. Thanks and Merry Christmas, Doc. We love you. Thank you, Doc. Thank you. PinballPrices.com. We love you. Sponsor of all of our shows. Whatever shows we do. We love you, Christopher Franchi, for setting us up. Totally. Next week, we'll talk about that logo, by the way, because there's a funny story behind that. And I want to mention, I haven't secured it with him yet, But I'm sure Zach Minney, flipping out pinball, is the sponsor of the Drew and Ian show. We think. Just because he loves us so much. We're just going to throw his ass out there. And as always, the unofficial sponsor is Justin Wise of Multimorphic. He is a dealer. He is the guy I'm buying my P3. It's coming in about a month or so. We'll talk about that. Justin Wise, Wise Trailers. Go check them out. if you're looking for a P3 for Multimorphic or a camper or an RV we will sell you all of it he does not mix with Zach because Zach does not sell P3s Justin Rice does so we got all these great sponsors thank you so much for all the patronage over the years and all of our sponsors by the way all of our sponsors I just want to let you know the bill is in the mail later guys See ya. Yeah.
    51:37
    Hang up your pretty stockings Put on your light Santa Claus is coming Down to your chimney tonight Oh, Christmas time, baby And the snow is falling on the ground Well, you'll be a real good love, baby And it's always like a Christmas