The Pinball Network is online. Launching final round pinball podcast. It's player versus player and player versus machine. Welcome to the final round. Just so people don't think that we are just complete alcoholics in Australia. It's 12. It's 18. It's 18. Don't be like that. How are things, buddy? Yeah, much better now that we are a couple of weeks into the lockdown kind of over. I mean, we've still got restrictions and I'm sick of having to talk about it. But, you know, I think we've now had 14 days of zero cases. So that's pretty good. If you needed another reason to hate all Australians, there you go, North America, because we are seeing record numbers and lockdowns everywhere. All right. Number one, number one, number one. Well done, guys. Oh, fuck. It's so bad right now. Even in Canada, it's been terrible. So it's only going to get worse with Thanksgiving and, you know, all those students coming home from school, which I don't understand why they're in school because I think it's online anyway. But whatever, we had that problem in Canada with our Thanksgiving back in October. So it's not good. Flu season. Jeff, come on, man. We don't want to neglect all our listenership. I just want to point out, so everybody that's listening from Europe and the UK, you are also doing really poorly. So just wanted to include you in this discussion. Just so you don't feel like we're neglecting you. You are also terrible. That makes us good, right? we're all in this together except for australia new zealand all right that's how we do we start the podcast let's shit on everybody else that's that's the theme of this podcast who else can we fuck with i think that covers a lot of people time to smarten up right now because we've got a really good guest here in fact i would believe that sometime in the next i don't know five years this may be the number one pinball player in the world he's on that kind of pace right now I personally believe if we hadn't had COVID, he would be number one now. Whoa, hot take. Yeah, I just think if you looked at the path, the trajectory, trajectory, trajectory? What is it? I'm sure I'll edit that out. Go ahead. I know you'll keep it in because that's what you would like. I just reckon he was on such a good winning streak that he would be, if not first, maybe second. Sorry, Ray Day. Well, who is he? Time to bring him on right now. Young 17-year-old, super incredible pinball player, and a fine young gentleman in that too. Escher Lefkoff joins us right now. Hey, Escher, how are you doing? Doing good. Thanks for inviting me. Our pleasure. How's the 2020 been for you? Really long. Haven't left the house much. I've been waiting for my pinball tournaments. But it's been a long year. Okay, it's been a long year for everyone. But if anybody's going to have a good 2020, I'm going to say it's you because in the last 12, 18 months, let's just talk about some of the things Escher's done, okay? There was last fall at Expo where he kept the title in the Lefkoff name. His dad won it a year before. And then Escher had that incredible final against Alexander Kazmarchuk. That was great. What else happened? Oh, I don't know. There was a pretty successful run at Indisc where you were, I think, fifth in the main at the Open. and then of course pin masters and you almost made it into the north american i know donovan just knocked you out there in the tough state that is colorado but there you were at pin masters and then okay ifk gets shut down there's nothing to do there's a little heads up challenge ah you win a turtle's machine so yeah it's a rough it's a rough 2020 i sure i'm feeling for you buddy yeah but if you're also talking the last 18 months you've also got to include coming to australia and getting some serious amounts of whoppers here. That's true. It was just over a year ago now, I guess. Yeah, August, and then I think you came back in December. And then I came back. Yeah, to win the Queensland State Finals. So, yeah, I mean, we're okay with it, Esha, is what I'm saying, Australians. We're just okay with you coming over and taking our points. Fair enough. No, of course we're joking It's actually, we're really pleased I was very pleased when I first heard that you were coming over to Australia I mean, we love seeing good players And our top players want to be competitive as well So it's actually been really good that you and Colin Urban came over And obviously dominated the field But it gives us something to chase for the next time Yeah, it was a lot of fun going over all the tournaments. It felt it was a really nice community there. Everyone was very friendly and, yeah, a lot of fun playing in the tournaments. Both times I went over. So you're basically saying the next time the Brisbane Masters comes, you'll be there. You'll be on the next plane. Yeah. It's a good event, no question about it, but a little less travel. Yeah, we talked about that incredible domination at Expo. And, you know, you basically broke Black Knight's sort of rage, the premium edition. They had to do some changes to that. Yeah. I actually, I wasn't the main one dominating it. It was actually Alexander was the untouchable on it. He had, every time he touched it, he was over a billion every single game. And because it got extended into Sunday morning, I got some time to think about it. And I was talking with my dad at night, and we figured that I should probably go first in the morning. because we knew he was a higher seed than me. He qualified. I think he was number one qualifier, if I remember correctly. And we knew exactly what he was going to pick and decided to go first on the game. So I knew I could get a billion, but I can't get three billion. And I kind of figured out that if I can step up and put a couple hundred million on my first ball and put the pressure on him, maybe I have a good chance at holding on to it. But the other side effect of that is I played long enough that the flippers actually were getting weak and you could only shoot the center ramp from the right side sometimes rather than every time. And that really worked out in my favor. That's a brilliant strategy. Martin, do you realize how few people can actually use that strategy that can play that long, that can weaken the flippers? My strategy is to play so long that I break the machine. Yeah, I mean, that's often a strategy I go with. It never succeeds, unfortunately. Yeah, the only game, Black Knight Sword of Rage Premium, Not even the Pro. It has to be the Premium. It's the only game that that's even a reasonable idea just because of how it used to work before, I guess. I think there's new code updates that make it a little bit more bearable. But before, you would just shoot the center ramp every single time, and you would play on the upper play field forever. And you would start multiballs and modes, and everything was on that ramp. And there was no danger whatsoever because it was the easiest shot in the game from both flippers. so it was a very long playing game to say the least. Would you say therefore the Pro is a more enjoyable game? Yes, very much so. The Pro has a lot more to it I would say rather than just keeping it in the upper play field and risk reward is actually in the game because you actually have to shoot the flail and you have to shoot the lock stand up target and you have to do all this rather than just shoot center ramp get to the easy catapult multiball, and then when you're in multiball, then do all the dangerous stuff. But on the pro, you don't get that multiball, and you've got to do the dangerous stuff yourself. So it's a much better game to play. Because it was sort of leading to... And it's a question I do ask a lot of the top players, and you're obviously currently ranked 6th in the world, which is pretty amazing in itself. But do you find that really when you are playing a machine, you are really thinking about the competition and the tournament or do you still play for funsies? So that's the strange thing is when I'm playing I don't really remember that much of what I'm thinking about but it's not usually based on the game really. Thinking about other stuff, thinking about the music I'm listening to or the situation that I'm in rather than oh I've got to do this and this and this because I've played all these games so many times now that I have a plan and I know what my plan is and I stick to the plan. And sometimes you get into scenarios where you just have to like, do I stick with the plan or do I swap here? But again, most of the time in your plan, you have that already kind of mapped out. It's actually pretty rare in tournaments that I run into a situation that I was not ready for. And so when I'm playing games now, it's kind of just like, stay concentrated, hit your shots, don't panic, be calm. Escher, you play with headphones. Not a lot of people do. I have sometimes used them. It depends on what's really going on in the background. So you just mentioned that you're listening to music. I wasn't sure if it was just noise cancellation. It really comes down to the tournament, actually. I don't listen to music that much anymore, but Pinburgh's one where I always listen to music on the stage because the noise canceling isn't enough, and I can still hear the commentators. It's the only tournament like that, And it's really not that big of a deal, but it can get pretty distracting sometimes. But most of the times it's just noise cancelling. So I just can't hear people around me in other conversations and get distracted. But most of the time it's just, yeah, just nothing, noise cancelling. So one thing I've known about you, Esha, and, you know, it's kind of strange that we've sort of watched you grow up with pinball. but one thing that you've really become is the source of how to play a game, particularly when it comes to rules. And I've heard commentators say it as well, in that a lot of players will watch you, how you play a game, and then adopt what you're doing. Is that something that you consciously wanted to do, was to be the person that had all the rules knowledge, or it's just something that's natural to you? So it's kind of funny you bring that up because in my free time, I play a lot of video games, right? And whenever I do something in a video game, for example, it's never the meta or the correct thing to do. And it's really frustrating because every time in pinball, it feels like I have this natural ability to figure it out instantly. I wish I could apply to other stuff as well in that I can play a game one or two times and then I'm like, okay, this seems good. I'm going to focus on this, and then from that I focus on this, then I can usually figure out what I want to do on a game pretty quickly. I mean, I guess I would say it is definitely one of my strongest skills at pinball is being able to just pick up a game instantly that I've never played before. But I think a lot of the time, I mean, there's a lot of people that do the same now. Yeah, it comes down to who has the game earliest at this point. But the good thing about that as well, and I spoke to a lot of people about, about, because obviously the Americans coming over and stealing our points was a big topic at the time of the Bismarck Masses, but the feedback that a lot of people gave was you had absolutely no problem sharing your knowledge with anybody. And I guess that's a sign that you're probably really comfortable with your skill, that it's okay for everybody else to know what you know. But is that a, does it come from a place of fairness? do you think or does it come from a place of confidence i think it comes from uh just like a competitive spirit thing where it like these giant tournaments you know i don't need to explain it to the pros like the top 10 in the world because they know it but when i'm going to tournaments where a lot of i guess the knowledge is pretty i'm not sure like what the best word is for it but a lot of i mean a place is only as good as its best player a lot of the times and um even if you know your best player is like top 50 in the world top 25 there's still a lot of knowledge that they might not know and being able to just share it so people can start i guess learning games better and i mean even if um you end up like losing because of it it's like yeah good for them right they applied the knowledge because it's one thing to know what to do but it's another thing to know how to apply it because that was like the one big thing that i always learned from pinball because it was that i have another story about that as an ifpa uh i was playing with uh i think three Europeans were in my group, and we got put on the Beatles, and none of them had ever played it before. And if you know anything about Beatles, you know that the game's already over at that point, especially a hard-playing Beatles, because if they don't know to pick the multiball and ball three, I mean, that's the majority of the points in the game. So I decided to explain it to them instead of just getting the easy win, because that kind of felt unsportsmanlike. And I feel like it was kind of the same there. I could just keep the knowledge to myself, but I think telling everyone this is the way the pros play it or this is the right thing to do, I feel like that gets pinball moving in a better direction just as a competitive game. It's funny you mention that game. I think of other games and, again, more of the newer titles. When a game like Batman 66 comes out or Star Wars, you're the go-to guy because there was always this way to play those games. and then someone says, did you see what Escher did on stream and how he blew it up? So I don't know how you're dissecting it or just trying different things, but, man, you figured it out, and you are the go-to guy for those. Yeah, and it's funny. Batman 66 was actually the only Stern game that I just had no idea anything about, and that's why my dad just decided after he won Expo that we were going to get a Batman 66 because it was actually not a game that you could choose because it's technically a premium game. So we actually had to spend more money from the way to upgrade it to a Batman 66. But we figured it out, and now it's my unbeatable game. People are scared to pick against me. And Star Wars, I mean, I think a lot of the games are at Chicago Expo because there's always one of the newest games just sitting there for like 50 cents to a dollar a play for a side tournament that Trent always runs. And when you're waiting for games, you've got nothing better to do than to just dump a couple bucks into the new game, right? With some friends. And you can figure it out. And I think that's what I do every year with, like, Zach Parks and Nick Wehner. We just play the game on the side with a dollar every single time. And that's, I think, how I figure out a lot of the new games. So what have you got in your collection now? We actually, so unfortunately, Lions Classic Pinball just shut down. Wait a second. I thought I know who bought that. But Ryan Wenger of Comet Pinball actually bought it. Yes. And is starting to renovate it and put it back together. But before that happened, we bought a couple of games from Kevin, who ran Lions Classic Pinball. We bought, what's the game called? It's like Toledo or something, which is an old EM game. El Toro? No. It's kind of from that. It's like a really strange EM. It's like a two-reel game. I think it's called Toledo. I've only ever seen it at Pinburgh. It's like one of those EMs that you get in your Pinburgh bank, and you're like, I've never seen this before. Then you look at the Bob Matthews guide, and it's just put the ball at the top of the play field, and you'll be fine. We got that. We also got a Monaco, which is really nice. Oh, yeah. And then the other two games, we got an Andromeda and a Frontier, but we actually ended up selling them back, so we played a bunch of them. Those games are awesome games, but they're not the best to own because there's not that much you can do with them. We just got an Avengers premium. It got here a couple weeks ago. We have Hot Wheels for a little bit for the Hot Wheels Challenge. And then, so we have, I'm not sure exactly how many games we have. There's a few in the barn. Yeah. Well, the variety of games certainly helps you with different types of tournaments. I've noticed the progression in Pinberg. I think it was 11th two years ago. Last year, 6th, very close. So I know that's kind of the next threshold for you. You've already won Papa. That was exciting, gosh, almost four years ago now. But I know Pinberg and something like the IFPA World Championship, those are kind of the next ones for you. Yeah. I had a really good opportunity this year at InDisc, but I was really running out of stamina. And at the time I was also super sick with whatever was going around. I don't know. You were there, right? Yeah. Did you end up getting the indisc sickness? No, I stayed away from Johnny Modica. Fair enough. Yeah, everyone from Colorado had it. But I was pretty sick in the finals, but I wasn't playing well either. I remember just barely making through high stakes right afterwards. But that's okay. You made up for it at Pin Masters where you didn't just win. You dominated. And did you get three hole-in-ones to finish it off, if I recall? Yeah, not only did I get three hole-in-ones, but the round before I also got three hole-in-ones. So the last six holes of the tournament, I only got hole-in-ones. So, yeah, I played really well that day. What do you think has been the formula or the key to your success? What is it that has made you a top player now from when you were playing? Obviously, playing when you're young, that's going to be a big advantage. But what do you think throughout those years has really been something that you think has been the key to being a good player? A lot of people don't think this, but pinball is nearly 100% a mental game at a point, especially in the top, I would say, like 25. Once you're playing against the best, everyone has the skills. Everyone has the knowledge. It's just who can apply it the best. And the best players, like your Keith Elwins and your Yorians and your, I mean, everyone in the top, that's known as like one of the best at the time. They're the most calm, collected people that can just play. And they apply everything. They don't panic. They don't worry about it. And they just go. And that's the one thing I've been really focusing on is my mental strength in game, like staying calm. Even if I'm playing poorly, be able to recover. and I think that's a lot of people like skip over that and they're like oh I lost because I'm not I should have drop catch there I should have live caught or I should have bounced I need to start applying it better it's like you know how to do all those things and you can do it every single time when you're playing at home and that's the problem right it's being able to just tell your brain don't freak out and to be calm and yeah because there's so many good players now that especially at local tournaments, they dominate. But every time they go to a big circuit event, they crumble under pressure. That's just because they haven't played it enough and they don't focus on their mental game enough. So do you think pinball has made you a calm person or were you naturally a calm person and this kind of format benefits somebody like you? Or do you have to work at it? I think I've been, especially because that was my main thing as a kid, is if you look back at some of the old videos of me when I was playing, like when I took sixth at Pinberg when I was 11 years old or whatever, I was hyper. I was jumping around. I would talk a bit. I feel like beforehand I wasn't calm at all, especially even when I was 13 when I won the world championships. I was still talking. I was super jumping around and all that. But I feel like from then to now, what's made me a better player is the ability to just take it slow and calm down and focus. You know, Marty and I were both there when you won that at the age of 13. We watched you in the fist pumps on Jungle Queen and going toe-to-toe with Bowen, beating Josh Sharpe in the tiebreaker. It was a clinic skateball. I mean, yeah, you'd get it into the pops and go up and down the B a couple of times, a few 5,000s, and you were doing the fist pumps. That was so cool. So the one thing about Jungle Queen is that a lot of people don't know, is I've actually, we owned a Jungle Queen for four years before then. And in the Bowen tutorial, a lot of people play for the scoops, right? But both my dad and I agree that I don't think that's the right way to play it, especially in tournament head-to-head, because the scoops are great, but it's kind of, I don't know, it feels slow. But if you can get the B every single time, you can shat both the A and the C. and so how we ended up playing it is that even if you missed the B, you would shoot the top two drop targets on either side over and over and over again. Even if they were already down, you would still shoot where they used to be, and it would go into the pops every single time. And when you're in the pops in Jungle Queen, they're not dangerous at all. They always either feed to the lanes on the right or the left, or they go up and they give you lanes. So that was actually our entire strategy, is to try and get it up into the lanes to get your double bonus. and then once you have like the B and the C or the A and the B or something like that, you would then get down to the flippers and then just shat the last one you needed to get the double bonus. Okay, I'm a father and I was right there with your dad when he was watching you do this and I think he was on his cell phone talking to your mom about what's going on and just it was one of the greatest proud parent moments I've ever seen. And your dad and you have been playing for many, many years. I think you are very fortunate, very skilled, first of all. I didn't use the word lucky. I said very fortunate to have such a great mentor and teacher in an excellent world-class player like your father. Because some of these things you're just mentioning, doing that, going first on Black Knight at Expo, I mean, these are brilliant moves. You're very, very fortunate to have such a wonderful teacher in your father. Yeah. I would not be where I was without him as my pinball mentor. he got me from when I was very very young just starting to play into where I was I guess going to tournaments he was taking me everywhere he was teaching me everything he knew and he was a very rules-based person himself and uh so I really got a lot from him growing up and it's awesome to be able to share something with him like this so yeah I think he's also exposed you to a lot of the old era games? Because that's what I found a lot with the younger players, particularly the ones that I know in Australia. Really, they've been exposed to Stern machines and more recent, whereas you seem, and obviously you're talking about your collection where you've got old EMs as well. Do you think that's helped you being able to be good on all the different eras? Because that's what happens at these major tournaments. Yeah, so it's definitely a lot with my dad, but I was naturally better at Williams and Stern games, so I would always lean towards them when playing for fun. But I think the main reason why I've had any success on the old and the solid states games is because of Lions Classic Pinball. It's always been like 15 minutes away from my house, and their collection has a bunch of those solid states and EMs, and the tournament was random game selection, the monthly tournament that we would always go to. And so being forced to play these EMs and solid states competitively was a lot of the source of my I guess basic solid state and EM skill was from Lions Classic Pinball Tournaments It good to hear that Ryan Wenger of Comet Pinball has taken that over and I know you been working with him for a little bit I have been Been learning to fix games, been kind of just like a part-time job, driving over to Lions and fixing games and helping them out. Is there an era that you like the most? I think my favorite era of game is probably Stern, or the newest games. So I guess that's Jersey Jack games and Stern games and games like that. Just because I feel like I'm the most, I don't know, my skill set works the best with it because I'm very drop catch oriented. I will drop catch whatever I can, whenever I can. And those games are the easiest to do that on. So I feel like those are my strongest games. And I've been kind of been playing at least the modern Sterns the same amount of time as everyone else. so I feel like I'm kind of ahead of the game on those a little bit. Do you remember the moment you learnt to do a drop catch or a live catch? And the reason why I say that is for those people that are listening to the show that are still trying to improve their skills, I guess the question is did you practice that or was it something that just came naturally to you? So I actually remember this. I think I was like eight years old maybe. That's awesome. I think, yeah, I can't remember. But I remember seeing my dad and Donovan Stepp being able to do flutter catches on some games, which is basically a drop catch where you also get the ball to a cradle. And I was like, I really want to learn how to do this. And so we took the glass off of, I think it was Indiana Jones, the Williams, and we would just draw and drop catch over and over and over and over again. And then about a year later, after practicing on Attack from Mars and games like that, my brain just kind of figured it out and started applying it. And then after I learned all the skills like drop catch bouncing, live catching, then you kind of get your own pinball portfolio in your brain of like scenarios. Like, what do you do with this or what do you do with that? And your brain just kind of instantly reacts with your knowledge. And so mine just kind of defaulted to drop catching. We have seen you apply these incredible moves and techniques recently. There was the heads-up challenge with Stern for the Turtles game. That was impressive. That kind of time-sensitive tournament is a lot different than what we see. Pin Masters is about doing it in the fewest amount of balls. For pin golf, Papa, it's about putting together a good ticket and then obviously getting into that bracket. Pinberg, we see that match play. But back to that time thing, we're going to see you do this again with Pin Slash. And Pin Slash is going on, I think it's December 5th with IE Pinball. There are several people trying to escape Nublar, put up their fastest times. You have come in at, I think, 1.30 last time I saw? I think it was 1.35-ish. 1.35, which is ridiculous. It'll get you a buy into the top eight. But what I want to ask you about, Escher, is this timed challenge. Do you like these? Because you seem to excel, like we saw at Heads Up with the Turtles match. So just looking at the challenges, I excel, I think, at the harder ones. Easier ones, I feel like the most can go wrong for me. So I'm really hoping I can make it far enough into the tournament that I can play some of the tier three or tier four challenges. I feel like I'm going to have a lot better success than early on playing some of the earlier challenges. because more people are comfortable doing those easier challenges perhaps um i just feel like it's a lot easier to um it's a lot easier to make a mistake and lose because those challenges are more about not making a mistake rather than playing your best is what i've kind of what i feel so like it's one of the challenges where it's like yeah capture a dinosaur everyone should be able to do this in a minute right but if you mess up and do it in a minute 25 instead and you lose points it just comes down to did your opponent also mess up but when you're doing a harder challenge like i'm not sure what the harder ones is like 100 million uh tyrannodon hurry up it's uh actually it's very uh tech based and kind of using like a plan that you have beforehand oh god i hope i don't ever have that as the challenge jeez i wouldn't know what to do don't worry you won't get that far come on marty i know i know i know your game i doubt i'm gonna to get that far. The Pteranodon? Yeah. One of them is 50 million. It's the tier 4 challenge for it. Okay. Wow. You just shoot the right ramp and you shoot some spinners. How hard can it be, right? Oh wow, I'm looking at them now. So there are four tiers of challenges. Okay. Are any of them drinking, Marty? Seriously, if it was, you know, have a gin beforehand, I would absolutely scoop the pool here. Escher's 17. He's not allowed. No, that's right. Well, there you go. So there you go. There's my advantage that I would have over Escher. So we've been training in different ways. There was something else that you did recently, and it is pinball related, but it was to a different audience that might not have been exposed to pinball. And thank goodness you of all people were the ones doing this because, you know, what a great ambassador you are. You've been featured before on major networks, and your accolades are huge. But explain what you did recently on the Austin Talent Show. So I guess I'll start the story from the very beginning. Our Avengers just got here, and I was on my lunch break at school playing some with my dad, and went back up to get back to work. And I quickly checked Twitter before I started and saw that the Austin Show, And The Austin Show is known for their Twitch dating shows where they have one famous YouTuber or Twitch streamer, and then they pick a bunch of other content creators. And there's like a Bachelorette or whatever that TV show is where you eliminate one at a time until there's one left. And that's what he's famous for. But he was doing a talent show this time. and I looked at it and it was not a music based one it was any talent and I was like yeah why not so I went back downstairs moved my streaming rig set up on Jurassic Park recorded myself playing and explaining it like five or six times to get a good take got a good take put it on Twitter and then I wrote in the form of hey I'm a professional pinball player I won the world championships when I was 13 and I'm ranked 6th in the world and that was it and I didn't think much of it I didn't think I was going to get into it because it looked like it was going to be a very music-based one just from all the people in the replies. And then four days later, I got a Twitter DM from the organizer and said that I was on and gave me the date and how it worked. And I started kind of prepping what I wanted to do. And I was thinking about it, and I had two ideas. I had a Nublar speedrun because a lot of Twitch streamers have been doing speedruns in different games like Mario 64 or Minecraft. So I felt like if I did one for pinball, it would have been easily applied. And then the other one was a billion hurry up on attack from Mars. And because it was just like an easy-ish thing to explain, but still difficult enough to execute, enough can go wrong that it would be impressive to do live. Then I was thinking about it more. I'm like, oh, I think I could do the billion hurry up one-handed. One-handed. Yeah. And so after the judges were announced, there was a wildlife streamer named Maya that I knew a little bit of, but I didn't think speedrunning would really sit that well with her. And the other one was Alexandria Botez, who is a woman chess master. I forget what the exact title is called, but she's very good at chess, and she streams chess with her sister. and so I was also thinking like I don't know if a speed run would work with that and then the other two were Jay Schlatt who makes YouTube and Twitch content or I guess just YouTube now he's kind of the only content creator that was on there that I've actually watched before and then the other one was Tommy Innet who is a Minecraft like he's I think he's younger than I am he's like 16 and he has a couple million subscribers and he plays Minecraft for thousands and thousands of viewers on Twitch and And so I was thinking about it, and I was really leaning towards the one-handed attack from Mars. And that's what I ended up doing. And I actually successfully did it on stream. I got the billion hurry up. But I did a pretty poor job at explaining what I was doing because I was really, really nervous because there was like 75,000 people watching and some content creators that I respected and looked up to. And I was very nervous, and I was kind of stuttering. I was missing my shots. but I got it together. But I should have, I think, now that I'm thinking about it, it was probably better if I did it with both hands and just went slower and explained what I was doing. But, yeah, it was a great experience. Happy with what I did. I went out in the first round, unfortunately. So what happens there is the judges vote who should go on. Now, that was something Raymond Davidson, myself, Marty was on the chat line. We were talking about what you were doing as it was happening. Raymond, the number one player in the world, was losing his mind saying, oh my God, Escher, he's not human, I think is his exact words, but he said the problem is these judges have no idea how hard it is what Escher's doing. They don't understand. You know what that is? That's Escher, you making it look so easy. Yeah. Yeah. One of them found it cool. Jay Schlatt thought it was pretty cool. I could tell from his facial expression, so he was kind of into it and understood. and he was the only one that voted yes for it. The other three voted no, unfortunately. But again, I feel like if I did two hands and went slower, I feel like I could have explained it better. And then maybe I should have saved the one-handed for later around now that they kind of understand a little bit more about it. But yeah, so I was kind of a bummer. But after I went out, I was still live on my Twitch account. And I think my Twitch went from, I think it was like 400 followers that morning to 4.3 thousand. in probably 30 minutes. That's pretty cool. And I peaked at over 4,000 viewers for a while there. And yeah, no, it was an incredible stream. Marty, you're at 4,000 followers now, aren't you? Yeah, I do. All the time. Yeah, of course. He does it a lot one-handed, but that's because the gin's in the other hand. Yes, that is true. Escher, all the best to you in Pin Slash. There's you, there's Jared August. Of course, Raymond's going to be doing it. Marty's going to try to do it. There are a lot of great streamers, but that's the fun thing about 2020. And there's not much to be positive about, but more people are streaming now, and they've joined what Carl's doing on IE Pinball for Pinclash coming up on December 5th. So all the best of luck to you, and I know you're looking forward to getting back to Australia. Let me just agree with you. Taking points from the Australians is the easiest thing in the world. Of course it is. So have fun when you go back there. And if you want to join those 4,000 followers, you can catch Escher's amazing streams on Steve-O-Pub. It's been great talking to you, buddy. Yeah, it was good talking to you. Thanks for inviting me. No worries. There we go. Everybody, that was the 17-year-old Escher Lefkoff. I've not heard, I don't think, him on a podcast for a couple of years. What did we learn about the new, the latest Escher Lefkoff? Super mature young man. I mean, the skills are there, but I was actually more impressed with the mental attitude and certainly the adjustments he's made, even from Papa 20 at 13 when he won that. He said he's learned a lot since then. We've seen him do it on streams. I mean, he has the complete game. When Keith Elwin was on the show on episode 10, we said, is it more important for you to be the best pinball player in the world or the best designer? He went with designer, and I said, well, who's the next superstar? Who's going to be the next greatest of all time? He said Escher. Yep, I agree. and you know it's it's the dreaded 18 right is the big number because when the young kids that we've seen get to 18 that's when there's a possibility of something else coming in their life that could be more interesting and therefore takes over so that's the only thing getting in the way if he continues doing what he does still having the love of pinball then i think he will dominate and my hot take is he will dominate for a very very long time a lot of good young guns out there colin urban who also did very well at the brisbane masters jared august alexander kasmarchok daniel peck uh there's so many great young players out there but you're right about that 18 thing because in north america there was a wonderful young player named Joshua Henderson he was spectacular went to school and kind of pinball went on the back burner he still plays occasionally but not to the level he once did. And right there in Australia, I was very impressed with when I met your son at Papa 20, Jordan Treadway. I thought he was your son. He wasn't. But that's when you and I met and Jordan was kicking butt at the B's. You know, Escher won the A's. Jordan won the B's. Yeah, that's right. I think he was, I don't know, how old was like 16 maybe or just turned 16 or 17 or something like that. And that's right. I mean, admittedly, And I caught up with Jordan about a week ago, and he hasn't played in tournaments for two reasons. One, he's been studying really hard, so there's the school factor, but also there are no tournaments. So, you know, can't do much about that. Yeah, we'll see what happens with Johannes Ostermeyer because he's got university, and I know he's still going to try to find ways to play, but that's the great thing about Germany. There's so many tournaments, I'm sure he'll be able to squeeze a couple in, so we'll see. speaking of university jeff yes sir you like this segue what do you think go ahead wouldn't it be great for these pinball people that are thinking oh do i study or what if there was a university for pinball a pinball university jeff are they giving out degrees because that'd be pretty cool I'm not sure they've got that particular accreditation to give out official certificates or degrees No doctorates? No doctorates, damn it This week we learned that there is now a Pinball University Courtesy of This Week in Pinball And I've checked it out and I'm really impressed with it, I've got to say Well, I'll give you a little sneak peek, alright? Oh, here we go. Exclusive, exclusive, exclusive. On Saturday, I recorded a Pinball profile episode with Jeff Patterson to talk specifically about Pinball University. So that's coming up, boy, less than a week from now because it has to air before Thanksgiving. So a little sneak peek here on Final Round. But you're right. I mean, there were so many different things on there. A lot of good articles. Fixing flippers. I thought that was kind of cool. yep but also just like really from the the most basic i guess which is if you are new to pinball what are some of the basic terms that that you and i jeff we take for granted because we've just been doing for so long but if there are people that are just getting into it like for example i don't even know whether it's in the new pinball or whether it's pinball for dummies but when i say something like oh you know the plumb bob you go oh yeah the plumb bob but for somebody that's just getting into pinball, they wouldn't really even know about a tilt mechanism, let alone the fact that there's this thing called the plumb bob. So I think that's what's really good about this pinball university, which you can find on thisweekinpinball.com, is that it just covers a lot of things. And these articles, people have spent a lot of time creating these articles, but it just covers a lot of things that I think we take for granted. And if you are just getting into pinball or you want to know how to repair a machine, obviously, I'm not going to read anything about repairing a machine because I'm just so bad at it. But it's just a really good resource to cover a lot of bases for a lot of people. There you go. There are a lot of sources out there, but this week in pinball, I know they're trying to do kind of a one-stop shop thing for this type of thing. And certainly all their other articles, the first takes, the deep dives and other things their Twip TV even with their monthly recaps. But this Pinball University is pretty good because you don't have to go through it all, but you can kind of handpick, oh, that one interests me, that one, the glossary of terms. So, yeah, that's only going to get better and better in a nice little archive thing. So kudos to you, Jeff. Well done. Well done. And it's good because I know you're out and about because, oh, wow, 14 days of everything. COVID-free there in Australia. Damn it. I'd love to be there right now. But not the case here in North America and probably in the UK as well. Eight plus months of sitting at home. I swear I have watched every single show on television, on Netflix, on HBO Max, Disney Plus, Hulu, absolutely everything. Lucky for you, it's our sponsor of the week, a new streaming service, Final Round Flicks. fresh off the success of the final round virtual expo video martin and jeff give you the tv streaming service for all your content needs see original programming like ginger is the new black or the dumbbrella academy plus there's the sci-fi hit of the year the marty lorian follow the tales of a bounty hunter in a galaxy far far away does anyone at this bar know where i can find a jedi a martylorian is it true you never take off that helmet it is the way not even for a free bottle of gin oh yeah but the helmet bottoms up on final round flicks from the minds of the fluffer brothers watch as a group of young kids explore the underworld of evil pinball with Stranger-er things. Hey, you like pinball? Yeah, um... Are you missing on purpose? It's not me. It's the machine. Your nose is bleeding. It's this game. It's making my head explode. Why do they call you Eleven? Because it takes eleven fucking times to hit the demogorgon and it still doesn't go in. Quality programming. 100% original. Subscribe to Final Round Flicks today. Speaking of watching things on streaming channels. What have you been up to, Marty? Well, I think I've been up to potentially the same thing that you have, in that I think we've both got to play some new games in the last fortnight. Is that true? It's so funny, because on episode 20 we were talking about all the wonderful games of 2020 that we haven't played any of. And we just went, you know what? This is stupid. Let's get out, and now you can. I just maxed up and went and did it anyway. We played a lot of new games. Do you know what? We actually have. And the first one I want to bring up, because if you remember on episode 20, we were our usual douchebaggery, which is the name I'm going to give us. It's the gold standard, damn it. The gold standard of assholery. We were, in particular to Ryan C that was on, and even though we were both involved, I was the spokesperson for our douchebaggery when it came to taking the piss out of Ryan's review of Guns N' Roses. That was two days before I got to play Guns N' Roses and probably about the same time that you did. What do we now feel about Ryan's review of Guns N' Roses? Truer words never spoken. It was one of the hardest things about enjoying Guns N' Roses was that realization that Ryan was right and all the stuff that we said to take the piss out of him is kind of null and void because it is as good as he said. It is. It's just his language. I mean, he never speaks that way. So, I mean, he got out the thesaurus. Let's be honest. But when he went on and on about how great the game is and how it really is different than any other pinball machine, yeah, it is. It really is. Yep, it is. so the initial impressions for me I've got to tell you because I streamed it on Melbourne Silver Bowl and I have a Facebook chat messenger group with all the streamers of Melbourne Silver Bowl and I was two games in and I sent them all a message because they were all asking me for what I thought and I just went you know, it's okay, it's good it's not great then two games later I had to send them a note saying urgent update this game is fantastic seriously honestly and I'll tell you why it was because the first couple of games I was just sort of flipping about didn't know what I was doing I don't even know whether I'd gotten into a song or if I did I didn't pick a good one when you start picking songs and the concert starts you know the song starts playing the light show which is just bonkers crazy amazing I couldn't stop smiling and a pinball machine has not put that much of a smile on my face for a very, very long time. I felt the same about the light show. What version were you playing? I was playing the LE. That's the mid-range one, right? Correct. So that's the one that's got 300 RGB LEDs and it's got the colour-changing strip lights along the side. And an upper playfield? Yes, upper playfield and the guitars, the middle guitar, the Gibson guitar. And it's got all those nice Guns N' Roses concert posters along the side. Really nice art. I like all three art packages. What did you play? I played the, I guess it's the SE, just the standard one, the regular one. Okay, and what did you think? It's funny because Ryan was saying, oh, you didn't get the full experience by playing an LE or the CE. Really? Because I didn't know any better. I was still pretty damn impressed with the SE. The standard edition was spectacular. I played it several times and I kind of wanted to play all the different songs. Okay, you've got to find some negatives, and it's hard to find negatives. This is a negative that's actually a positive. As I was playing, I was hoping someone else could play. I was by myself, so I could watch up. I wanted to see what was happening. So this is going to be a great multiplayer game because there's a lot to see. I absolutely agree with you. I didn't pay attention to the screen, and every time I did, I pretty much just happened to see a bloated axle. so I was fine but here's what I think they've done really really well the light show integrated in the song that you're playing and the example I give I kept choosing Live and Let Die because the light show for that particular song is epic not saying that the others aren't great that one just happens to be epic and what it does is it showcases the song itself, it's almost like they've stuck this song into some artificial intelligence programming that analyzes the song and says, here's a completely designed concert light show based on what we're listening to in the song. And each of the songs has a completely different light show, but it just is a visual representation of the audio track. I don't know how they've done it but it's why you know when Keith P. Johnson was on the show he said one thing that they really underestimated was the time it would take to do all the light shows i can understand why because the light shows are that complex worth the time to put it in because yeah it probably prolonged things but you want that finished product to be great and they probably could have released it without that but it wouldn't have had the wow factor that you and i are talking about other podcasters other streamers other publications are all talking about you know when they when they talk about Guns of Roses and that unique light show So it really is more than anything else we seen So you know I did see a guy I was playing at our distributor friends Player One in Mississauga just near the Toronto airport And it was just me and Jerry Power. And then some other guy came in that was kind of a collector. And he reminded me of what you're hearing about on Pinside and maybe some other podcasters when they have concerns about any new game. I'm going to use Guns N' Roses as an example, because You can say this about almost any game. He was looking at, oh, look, look around the post. They've got rubbers or washers because there must be pooling and all that kind of stuff. And I'm like, okay, great. Then they put washers around it. That's great. What's the problem? If that solves the problem, great. You're not going to see anything? Great. And then he was like, oh, look at the drumsticks. They're faded. Well, I have several drumsticks and the paint on the drumsticks is going to fade. I think that would be the one suggestion I might make to Jersey Jack or any owner of that game. maybe turn the drumsticks like maybe 30 degrees if possible still in the same spot but just rotate them a little bit so that the ball doesn't run over the painted frank and i can't remember his last name uh whatever his little logo is there on the drumsticks that might preserve them a little longer but they are going to fade as the ball rolls over and rolls over but this was a guy who is obviously not so much a guy like me who wants to play the game but just wants to look at it has to be pristine i'm not on the same wavelength as people like that no okay i i was having this conversation because there have been some play field issues that have been reported on pinside and on facebook and and there are there's some pooling and there's some cracking and all that kind of stuff and i don't know there's two sides of one one part of me says yeah it's only small the other part of me which i think is what people are feeling is yeah but that's what it is now what's it going to be after a year, two years, three years of playing? Is it going to get worse? And just because you put a washer there, does that actually safeguard this machine for the next five, ten years? I think that's the problem that people are having, is they're saying, I don't have confidence that this machine is going to go the distance. And the litmus test that everyone's got is, they always say, Bally Williams games of the 90s still going now. Yeah, a lot of those have had to have repairs as well, but they kind of lasted 20, some of them 30 years and still in good condition. That's what I think the problem is. People are saying, I don't think this machine is future-proofed because of what you've done right now. Then don't buy one and try to buy one in a couple of years and see what happens. Yeah, but then there's the FOMO, fear of missing out, Jeff. Yes, yes. But also too, it reminds me of the people that buy toys and I don't know about you, I've never bought a toy that I didn't play with when I was a kid where these people buy toys and then they just leave it in the original packaging and never want it damaged. Okay, if you're buying it for a commodity to resell, okay, great. All power to you. There's nothing wrong with that. That's what you want to do? Great. But pinball machines are meant to be played in my books. But Jeff, there's also people that want to play it and then retain its value. You think it's going to lose value by a little bit of It's like we've got a buddy who has great games on location at a place called Cabin Fever in Toronto. And Ryan C has played there too. And he was talking about, wow, you've got a dialed in there. Why don't you put a Cliffy on that scoop? And he's like, because it plays like shit when you put the Cliffy on it. Will it get damaged? He goes, I'll put a Cliffy on it when I sell it. That's my attitude too. That's a perfectly fine attitude. All I'm saying is almost in defense of those people that are really worried about their playfields is they're worried that whatever is a little bit of pooling right now, in 12 months' time, is going to be a big bit of pooling and it's going to get worse. That's understandable. Consider, you know, we talked about this when we were talking about the Stern versus Jersey Jack fanboy wars where people outlaying a lot of money. I mean, as you know, it's $20,000 for a GNR here. That's a lot of money. you kind of want the quality to be absolutely rock solid. So we've used Guns N' Roses as an example. What about the dimpling that we see on a lot of other machines? Stern's been having some concerns about that. Then don't buy a pinball machine, I guess, because it's going to happen. I know. Do you know what I saw during the week? Because I actually got to flip Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles, the premium. This game has probably had, I'm going to say, maybe 50 games on it. The dimpling on this is just, oh my God. I kind of get... Let me ask, is it like every other pinball machine in the last couple of years? I would say no. Does your Jurassic Park have dimpling? My Jurassic Park, no. Yeah, it probably does, but you can't see the dimpling for the swirl marks that my Playfield has got. When I unboxed it, it has got swirl marks. It's like somebody's got one of those rotating buffer things. Really? And it's got stone grits in it. If you look at my play field, you see swirl marks all the way on the play field. Now, does that bother me? It bothered me at the time. If I only look at it at a certain light, I notice it. When I'm playing it and when I'm streaming it, I can't see the swirls at all. but if i go to sell this machine how am i going to feel when someone receives it and they go how come it's got all these swell marks on it you say look you're buying an le you son of a bitch from one of the greatest podcasters of all time so ignore a couple of fucking marks all right yeah if you have a look at the feature sheet under le it says swell marks so you don't get that on the pro buckle so this is the whole thing everybody's experience with these and let's call them defects everybody's experience with defects is different the problem you've got is that if you put it up on facebook you say oh look i've got this problem everybody will pile in and make you feel even worse about the situation you're in as opposed to you know what that's pinball just deal with it you ever sold an old old game and someone says is it home use only like like a 30 year old 90s game or something like that is it home use only like how long i've been in pinball like that's one of the things that drives me nuts right i mean with age it's going to be played a lot whether it's home whether it's on route that's okay but don't have it out of the box like that yeah see so no i just don't think you can compare pinball to buying mint condition baseball cards that are graded or something to that effect, comics that are graded. No, I will give you what I think is probably a better comparison, right? A car? A car. Exactly. Now, it's been used. No, but if you buy a brand new car and you buy the... I'll give you an example. Let's just say my previous BMW was an M235i. I got, I think it was maybe the fifth car into the country. So it is the first batch of a new car. The amount of recalls that that car had was probably about, I think maybe six or seven things they had to fix. Now that's what you expect when you get the first batch of a car. They will fix them over time, but that's what you get. Now, here's the difference. The difference is with my BMW or whether it's a Toyota or whatever it is, whatever car that you've got, all I've got to do is take it back to the car yard, whatever it is. They have it for a couple of hours and it comes back and it's as good as new. It's really easy to get that rectified. Well, if it's a major recall, for sure. But here's one difference about cars versus pinball machines. Cars are going to be used. Pinball machines are going to be used. When you drive a new car off that lot, it loses an incredible amount of value. When you buy a new pinball machine, it retains the majority of the value. And if it's really... Depends on the title. It depends on the title, right? Yes, for sure. I mean, I think games like Pirates of the Caribbean by Jersey Jack definitely retain their value because they're not making them anymore. Games where you see them try to pass them off and sell them because maybe they didn't do so well. That's a different story. but your LEs are pretty much retaining their value. Pros, not bad. Premiums, I've been told that's not the best for retaining value. But again, I still think they're meant to be played. They're going to have a couple of dings here and there. I don't want the artwork faded or big gouges in the play field or broken plastics or things like that, even though those are replaceable. But if it's been played, it's been played. You're missing my point because you didn't let me get to my point. Oh, snap. Ready? You ready? Yeah. What I'm saying is the major difference is how the problems are rectified. The car companies come out and say, hey, this is a problem. We recognize the problem. Here's the fix. We want to fix it. It's going to cost you nothing. There's a bit of an inconvenience because you've got to drive your car back. In fact, my last time, they actually paid for an Uber back to my house and then back to the car yard in the afternoon. but I guess the difference is that they're up front they say, yep, it's a problem probably because there's human safety required this is what's frustrating a lot of people it's not necessarily the defects it's the fact that people aren't admitting that it's a defect they're saying, well, that's just part of pinball these days and you're saying that as well that's pissing a lot of people off that's the point there you go we're done we okay now? I'm afraid to talk i don't care as i've said to you i don't care i've got a jurassic park that has got swirl marks all over it my flippers died and i had to get new coil stops my uh swirl marks all over it give me a break i'm afraid to put a black leg to that i don't want you like jurassic park my favorite movie oh my god best thing ever no but my my raptor pit gate that comes up and down stopped working and I had to repair it. I've had to just fix this. I still don't care. That's my personal opinion. All I'm saying is I think it's okay for people to react differently. That's all I'm saying, Jeff. Of course it is. There is a right reaction and a wrong reaction. No, you're right. Listen, at the end of the day, it is a lot of money putting it in there. You are saying that the pinball companies are not admitting that it is a problem. I think what they're actually doing is admitting they can't solve the problem. So therefore, there isn't a problem. Do you remember a couple of episodes ago I said to you there are two things that make us angry? One, when there's an injustice, and two, when our standards aren't being met. Which one do you think that this falls into? Is it number two, Alex? Yes, it is. Well done. It's when our standards aren't met. We have a standard in our mind that says, this machine, if I'm spending $20,000 on it, needs to be perfect. And if the manufacturer says, hang on, it is perfect, and we say, no, it's not perfect, then we get angry because our expectations are not the same. You know, with the dimpling and stuff, we saw that slow motion video we both loved with Jersey Jack's Willy Wonka and just simple shots where the flipper would hit a stand-up and the air the ball would get. Kind of makes sense why we're seeing some dimple. It does now, doesn't it? There is so much more air in the balls than we expected that I'm used to. Okay, enough Guns N' Roses talk. You did mention you played Turtles. Was it a premium? It was a premium. I only played two games. I was actually over at someone's house to pick up my new PlayStation 5. So this was at Eric. Thank you again, Eric. You're amazing. So he said, well, I'll just have a couple of games on Turtles. So I did. It was a premium. I'm going to stream it in a couple of days. And I really, really enjoyed the two games that I had. Okay. I played the pro version. Same day I played Guns of Rossa. I actually played four machines I'd never played before. So that was one of the ones I played. I enjoyed it as well, too. I mean, if I'm comparing to the other games I played, I have to think, am I ranking it or am I saying did I enjoy it or not? If I'm saying did I enjoy it or not, yes, I enjoyed it. Out of the four I played, it was my least favorite, but they were all games I liked. So it's not really a negative, but I'm just saying I've played games like this before. I was very confused. It's so funny how Dwight can give us these games that are so bloody confusing, and they are, But again, a lot of Dwight games, you just can't walk up and figure them out. Whereas a game like Munsters, the complete opposite, easy to figure out. Turtles, I was very, very confused. And I've seen a few streams. I'm sure I would get it with more and more play. But think of how long it took for you and I to figure out Star Wars, right? And even me. You know what I mean? It takes a long, long time. But I guess if you're an owner of that game, that's good. You want it to be challenging. Yes. That's longevity. Yep. So out of Turtles Premium, which you played, out of the Pro, which I've played, we've seen both streamed. Do you have a favorite or a preference? Because for me, believe it or not, it is actually the Pro. And that doesn't surprise me. I've spoken to a lot of people about Turtles. The general consensus is that the Pro is better. And I will say this as well. I kind of think that that's a bit of a recurring theme, particularly on John Borg's games. And again, this isn't ones and zeros. If the pro's good, the premium and LE are terrible. That's not the case. I think what you're getting on his games, on the premiums and LEs, you're getting bells and whistles, but they're bells and whistles that might alter the gameplay a little bit, but I think it's a real testament to the pro. I just think the pros that he produces are absolutely rock solid, and that's enough game there. That's interesting because they build the LEs and premiums first and then they pull things back. So I would say I agree with you for a game like Guardians of the Galaxy. I have no need for a premium or LE. Those hands are actually in the way. And I know a lot of people that have actually removed the Groot hands. But Monsters, you see a big difference in that John Borg layout with the lower playfield. If you like lower playfields, I'm not a big fan. That is a great lower playfield. I'm not a lower play field guy but I mean give me that over something like ACDC where it's just simple loops and shots I think that's a great lower play field if you had the pro you would still be having an amazing experience I don't think the lower play field adds that much and obviously you know I was an LE owner of Munsters I don't think it added that much of a new experience just because I think the pro had everything that you need. I thought it was pretty cool that you could have the multi-balls up and down too. The only problem is you could cradle. That was the one thing that you could kind of cheat and cradle. That's a simple code fix. I don't even know if maybe they did fix it. Back to the board games. Metallica, I know a lot of people that like that spinner, especially when they get in to crank it up. I could care less about the hammer. It looks kind of cool, but whatever. I think of the Walking Dead, it's a lot more money for really one more toy but it makes that game so much better with you know the walker bombs and stuff and but i i for me it's just about justifying the difference between fifteen hundred dollars for a little thing the the one game and this isn't a board game it's another game i played this past a couple weeks was i played avengers and the difference between that premium le and the pro are night and day but i played the pro and loved it i've got a premium on order it's the pro i played and still thought this is spectacular the reason i ordered a premium is you're getting a few more things but had i bought just the pro i'd be just as happy it's such a great game so i think this time by the time our next podcast is i would have played an le avengers they are arriving in the next couple of days into Australia. So hopefully I'll get to stream it in the next week. So I'm out on any impressions on Adventures. I haven't played it yet. There was one more game I played, and I know there's one more game that you played. So the game that you finally played, it was not Rick and Morty. It was Ryan and Marty playing at the Dirty Dungeon. Tell me about Rick and Morty, because I have yet to play that one. I have. So I streamed Rick and Morty last night. And I think this may, I may be underselling it when I say this, but this is what I want to say. It's total nuclear annihilation with ramps and a full rule set. So meaning, even though the audio is different, it's presented in a similar way. It feels the same sort of audio experience as TNA. It feels like TNA. It looks like TNA, just something else. But it plays completely different. But you can tell that this is the next game from Scott Denisey. I really loved it. Had an absolute blast playing. And, you know, we talk about theme integration. We talked about it before with G&R. Theme integration is off the charts. Theme integration for this, I think, is actually more than Guns N' Roses because I feel like there's a lot more variety and there is so much more assets that they've got from all the different shows and the custom call-outs that they've done in this game are fucking hilarious hilarious that they got justin Justin Roiland to do all these pinball in jokes i am not going to say any of them because i want people to experience them we just laughed and laughed and laughed it was such a fun game to play I've only seen a handful of the shows. I enjoy the shows. I just don't have a streaming service. Maybe we'll have to get it on Final Round Flicks. I've only seen a handful of the shows, and I really enjoy it. I find it very funny. I think Dan Harmon is an incredibly smart guy. I certainly love his community television show. I've watched the streams on IE Pinball with Carl D'Python Anghelo, and I was very impressed. You talked about theme integration. I can't disagree one bit with you, especially with the custom callouts. To me, Guns N' Roses, they also have all the assets. To me, it's 1A, 1B, flip a coin. Which one has the best theme integration? Because they're both spectacular. But that's interesting you say it's kind of the next evolution of TNA because I did notice a lot of the speed that TNA had when I watched that stream. But I like the unique play field. That's the thing I like the most about it. In chat, people keep saying, how do you feel about that pop bumper? on the left-hand side. I really like it. So why? I really like it. In fact, I thought I was either going to be indifferent or it was going to be too random. It's somewhat random, but it makes it so much more fun. Well done. You get full marks, Scott Denisey, for that pop bumper. I think it's really fun. Well, you heard Escher talk about that he bought Andromeda. That's got that kind of bottom-left pop bumper too. that's you know if you're anywhere near there the tip that the pros tell you is as it comes out near there it's a little different than rick and morty but as it's in that area in andromeda hold the left flipper up because the pop bumper is going to shoot it right down the middle and and i i've seen a couple of that on rick and morty but it's it's a great integration of that yeah but you've also got what is it the slam save or whatever it is so if that's lit and the pop bumper does feed it down the middle you get your ball back so there's some safety there as well I will say that the things that people have been saying is that the garage shot is difficult. Which one is that? Is that the left orbit? It's the lower left orbit that you get from the upper right flipper. It is difficult, but you can then go for the right orbit as well that does the same shot. The shots are tight, is what I will say. The horseshoe is easy to get. The left ramp, which is incredibly steep, is still very gettable. the right orbit and the shot just to the right of the right orbit is very difficult to get but i don't know i just kind of felt like that that was making it a fun challenge like i just i wanted to play it more because i wasn't quite dialed into it and for me that's a spooky thing a lot of the spooky games that i've played i've had to rethink where i expect shots to be and relearn the game and that's kind of cool because it gives me a new fresh experience there's one other game that i got my hands on that was new in 2020 and i was so glad to play this out of the four i've mentioned and this being the fourth this was the first one i played knowing that i've still got to play guns of roses still got to play avengers still got to play turtles this was the first one i played and i played it several times even as anxious as i am to get on these other games. I played Hot Wheels from American Pinball and thoroughly, thoroughly enjoyed it. I played several games. This is a fun, great shooting game. It is by far the best game from American Pinball. I've said before I like the other games. I can see why people don't or have some concerns with some of the shots in the games. I think this is an absolute winner and I'm really glad to see American Pinball with this kind of theme that, listen, does it grab everybody? No, but it is a licensed theme and there are a lot of fans of that. You know what it is when you play it. Good theme integration. I just thought it was such a smooth, fun game and I had no idea what I was doing, but really enjoyed it. There you go. We said that on a previous episode that all the people that have played it said they love it. So the only one I got to get to is Heist now, the multi-morphic game, which I think looks spectacular. There's the ranger in the ruins and then I've kind of covered it all off as far as new games in 2020. And yeah, I'm curious to see what you think of Avengers the LE. I really enjoy it. They've changed the code for the subway, I noticed. There were some problems with that, so they fixed it in code, which is great. Yeah, good. That's what you do with code. Marty, do you know, once upon a time, this podcast was about competitive pinball? Yes. That was a long time ago, wasn't it? Well, there's glimpses here and there. We talked about Pin Slash. That's coming up. What was your final time for Jurassic Park, just out of curiosity? Three minutes 38. I think I'm, and I think today might be the last day. I'm currently sitting in 20th position. You'll get in. Although there's going to be a lot of sandbaggers, I'm sure, just kind of throwing it in last second. I saw Raymond put one in today. This is Sunday. We're recording this. He put one in under 130. I think it was 125. 126, 250. I'm just looking at the standings right now. I am sitting in 21st. So, you know, I might not make it. There are alternates, too. We're talking about pin Slash. So with all the different streamers out there, i.e. Pinball, Carl D'Python Anghelo has generously created this wonderful tournament for streaming. And how you qualify for the tournament, because he had so many people apply, was you had to escape Nublar on Jurassic Park. Didn't matter what edition you had, whether it's Pro, Premium, or LE, Escape Noob War is pretty much the same for everyone. And the top 24 times got you into this tournament. Now, the tournament has since grown in sponsorship. Neil McRae donated a Scorbit, Scorbitron, or whatever you want to call that, for your machines. There's a lot of cash prizes. Stearns donated a bunch of transites and even a signed Jurassic Park playfield. Carl D'Python Anghelo himself has put up cash for people to win. So this is going to be fun. This is coming out on December 5th. So, like we do on Final Round, we always want to let you know about the great competitions that have been happening in 2020. And oh are there many of them Well we have still kept the competitive spirit of this with our own mini competitions Although there was another competition too I should point out In Boston, or just outside of Boston, Mitch Curtis, he said he was going to do this. When we were talking on Pinball Profile, he's their state rep. He has been running this poor guy. He had all these great machines at a place called Flat Top Johnny's in Boston and other places. He's an owner-operator. and you know hell or high water he's like you know what we're still going to have a state finals so they did they had it outside it is fresh arcade all the games were outside and i think that's pretty cool that uh all these people were proper social distance they were all wearing masks lots of hand sanitizer i think that's cool that people are still finding ways to do that i watched the stream actually level one arcade in columbus ohio they were having some neat little challenges too So people are still doing competitions. It's not IFPA endorsed, but they're finding ways to do this. So kudos to them for finding safe ways of competing. Yeah, well done. But admittedly, though we do talk about other things, we've still kept the competitive spirit with this podcast, I would say, Jeff, in that we've been running our own mini competitions. and the first one I want to talk about is Star Trek vs. Star Wars from last episode. This was Slam the Top 100, which was absolutely fairly drawn. Absolutely. 100%. We let Ryan pick who to go for, you know, which one do you want. I had two envelopes sealed. They were completely at random and he just happened to choose Star Trek, which gave you Star Wars by default. Flip of the coin there, Marty. There was no way that was set up. None whatsoever. None whatsoever. I didn't realize straight away that it was completely fair. Which is weird because you love Star Trek, too, and you didn't get to pick it. No, I know. It was weird how that managed to happen. And the fact that you know I dislike Star Wars. Oh, do you? It's strange that, yeah, well, you wouldn't know from last episode. My God. Yeah. Yes. So the results are in. Star Trek won with 70% of the vote. Which begs the question, who the fuck were the 30%? Did George Lucas vote himself? What the hell? No, see, again, I think people voted for the better machine, not necessarily the better argument. I think your 30% was the better argument, I'll give you. You had a pretty good argument. And sorry, my stopwatch was broken last week when I gave Ryan 30 seconds to debate. I guess he actually went longer when I looked back. Oops, sorry about that. That is true. Yeah, disqualified. So really what we're saying is Star Wars is the actual winner. Oh, you're not going to be one of those, let's recount the votes, the election was a fraud thing. I've heard enough of that in this side of the world. All right, we're good. We're fucking good. No, I'm just talking about it's a historical urine analysis that we've now determined he was using a banned substance. Oh, well, there are other contests that we are running, and boy, this is a good one too, and we're actually ready for the finals. Yes, the final of the final round underrated pinball battle royale. Let's talk about the last results. So we had Mustang versus Alien Star. Mustang went through with 56% of the vote. So a narrow victory there. What do you think about that, Jeff? I would say if I want to play a game in a contest, I want to play Alien Star. Would I like to own it? Yes, because of how rare it is. Is Mustang more deep than Alien Star? Fuck yes. Of course it is. There's lots to do. There's all kinds of different multi-balls. I think there's a few. Well, we'll get into it in the finals. Anyway, I'm not surprised Mustang won because Alien Star, like you, like to point out, was do the thing. Do the one thing. It's pretty fun when you do it, but if you were to own it, would it be kind of fun? No, you need a little more than that. So, okay, Mustang goes on. Well, again, I genuinely believe that Mustang is a better game. but again i often say it's not ones and zeros alien star even though it's got the one thing and you said it ryan has said it everyone has said it that one thing when you do it you feel fantastic and there's not that many games that can deliver that much joy just with the thing alien star is a fantastic machine so the one thing for those that don't know is you have to You have to start multiball, and you lock a ball, and you lock it in at a value of two times, three times, or five times the play field. And that's random based on where the spinner is. So there is more than just one thing. You have to set it up to do that. Once you get the multiball lit at whatever you're locked in, then you'll have two balls come and play, and you have to go through the right in lane, and then the spinner is lit very briefly for a ridiculous amount. It's like 10,000 a spin, and it's a juice spinner. So that's the game. That's the one thing. Once you're in multiball, sorry, 10,000 times the multiplier, so it could be 50,000 a spin. You go down the right in lane and you rip the spinner. It's just so cool. So it's really hard to do. Right, so right in lane to the spinner on the left. And when you do it and you get that massive rip, oh, yeah, all the money. It's tough to stage it to make this happen. And the inlanes, outlanes are very, very tough too. so the multi-balls do not last long so that's what makes the game so wonderful anyway alien star no shame in making it to the semifinals but mustang advance what about the other semifinal so the other semifinal was demolition man versus the sopranos i gotta say i was surprised the sopranos made it this far i'm not because as i've said it's just really underrated i'm not saying it's a better game than Demolition Man. I think I would be silly to say that it's a better game than Demolition Man. I still think that it's more underrated than Demolition Man, but it didn't get through. Demolition Man got through with 70% of the vote. To me, underrated is, is it at where people think it should be? And I think Sopranos is right. You know, it's not the greatest game. It's not the worst game. It's right where it should be. Whereas I guess you think Mustang is people really think it's crap because I think it's kind of where it should be. But Demoman is just this treasure that you never see this style of game. It's a wide body that doesn't really play like a wide body. It's incredible flow. It's got unique flippers that you can play up top. It's got some great call-outs, some jackpots. Simple code. Anybody can walk up to it and figure it out. Crazy flow. I like it. Sopranos is, well, it's fine. It's good. It's just meh. But this is why you are saying exactly my point. You go, oh, it's okay. And my argument is, no, Jeff. No. You are not giving this game the rating it deserves. And that is why it's underrated. 70% disagree with you there, Marty. That's absolutely right. But I also think that people will go, oh, hang on. Demolition Man is the better game. Yes, it's the better game. Is it more underrated? Maybe not. so it just depends on what people are voting for. As I said, I agree. Demolition Man, I played it last night. It's really starting to warm on me and it is definitely underrated but nobody thinks about Sopranos. Nobody thinks about Mustang. Nobody talks about those games as being... You can tell there's a lot of people that have commented on it saying yes, these games are vastly underrated because I really like these games and people don't think so but if you give it a go you'll see it's better than you think. therefore underrated. Well, we will let you vote on the finals. Mustang versus Demoman. And we will let you vote for four days. It's the finals. It's got to be worth a few days. We don't want you to miss it. And funny enough that we got this far, we each had eight picks in the 16 and we each have one in the finals. Correct. All right. Give your praises on why Mustang, your pick, is the most underrated game. So it's sort of in line with what I said before in that people have just dismissed this game as though it doesn't exist. Obviously it's biggest criticism of people that it's got the flipper gap. Forget about the designer. I know that's a bit of a stigma for a lot of people as well. But once you do play it and you play it a bit more and you do get used to the flipper gap, you actually realize that the rules that are in this game are incredibly well integrated into the layout of the game it has got great callouts i think it's got great art as well the thing i love the most is the the ramp on the left hand side that's got three stages so it can either be an orbit it can be a half goes up halfway to a ramp return or goes all the way up to the return into the funnel. There's a fourth stage when the ball gets stuck under it. There's that as well. But yeah, I don't know. It's just one of these things. It's got cool modes. It's got a cool way to progress to the wizard modes, mini wizard mode and wizard mode. It's underrated because people just played it at the time and went, meh, it's a car theme. I think it's more than just a car theme. It's a fun playing game. If it was a different theme, it would have been a hit. The one thing that you didn't mention about Mustang, which I think is the best quality of it. Is that the risk reward of how many gears do you want to go to get to cash in your jackpots? That is the best thing about Mustang. Unfortunately, there's a lot of multi balls. There's a lot of extra balls. There are the balls being hung up underneath the ramp. There's the copy and paste creature of the black lagoon spiral thing that really, it just kind of kills the flow a little bit, I find. I mean, it doesn't do it for me. It's a good game. It's a good game, no question about it. I think it's right where it should be. Unlike Demoman, which let's also remember when this game was made. Mustang was made not many years ago. They had a lot more technology. Demoman didn't have that. Still put in a lot in there. Different multiballs, incredible callouts, including special ROM callouts, too, if you want the dirty version. We don't want that on Final Round. We're a clean-cut show on this fucking podcast. But anyway, it's just such a crazy flow game. The speed of that game, you play that and boy, you're sharpening your skills on that. I think of what Elwin does on his upper flippers and those tight shots that you have to make, whether it's the side ramp on Jurassic Park, whether it's even on Avengers, he's got one of those. You definitely have it on Iron Maiden with two shots there. Demoman's got one of those, hitting the computer with the tight shot. How about starting the multiball, getting it past the upper left flipper? Some good shots in that game. And this, again, is an early 90s game. Demoman, most underrated for sure. And it's underrated because look at the price of it. That game should be worth a lot more, so you can pick it up. Very underrated. Okay. No, to all of that, I think it's actually overrated. And I'll tell you why. A couple of reasons. first it is a shit theme it is a absolute poo theme yeah it's no mustang that's for sure yeah wow yeah i agree i think mustang's a shit theme as well that's why i said if it was rethemed it'd be great the problem i find with demo man there's a couple of things i think art wise it's boring It's really just a very basic art package. The left-hand side of the machine is just a non-event with the car shot, whatever it is. It makes a wide body into a standard body. You've got to let me finish my argument. You don't have to interject every time. Just saying. Give me my time. Go ahead. Sorry. You have the conch. Go ahead. Thank you. The problem, I think, with Demoman is it is flow. And you know I love flow games. so it's flow, but it's only limited to those shots. There's not a lot of randomness. You either make the shot or you don't. Whereas I like games that have got rebounds and things like that. This is very much all the different shots, either from the upper left flipper or the right ramp. They're kind of cool. The other thing that's just absolutely stupid is the... Is it the claw? It's dumb. and it gets deactivated in tournaments as well. It's just, I don't know, I just have not got it. And the last thing I'm going to say is, against what a lot of people say, the handlebar triggers are dumb. It is not pinball. It doesn't feel like pinball. It's a complete gimmick, and people that play using those are idiots. How do you play this game, Jeff? I've never played it below. I've always played up top, because you get extra points for combos and doing it up top. So that has made the difference. Just for everybody that's listening, I'm just saying that for Jeff's purpose. I don't think you're an idiot because you use the handlebars. It was just a dig at Jeff. Don't send me hate mail. Oh, you'll get hate mail. So, yeah, you think the claw is a dumb gimmick. You know, it's certainly not that wonderful rotating Mustang that you're paying ridiculous amounts for. Boy, that's a good toy. Brilliance there on that. Also, too, you know what sucks about Mustang? And I'll say this about any game that's similar to that, and thankfully there aren't many. You've got a row of drop targets that are right in the middle of a play field that are dangerous shots. Don't believe me? Who hits the drop targets on Stranger Things? You don't. Why? Because they come straight back. Even on AFM. And that's further away. How many people ever go for the bank to drop the visor? You do it when you're in super skill shot. Excuse me, you're interrupting me. Conch, mine. No one goes for it unless it's a super skill shot because it's too dangerous. Screw that. I'll go my Total Nuclear Annihilation shots. Anyway, Demoman is just flow, flow, flow. The combos are ridiculous. They reward you for the combos. Mustang is way more forgiving because, oh, you screwed up? Don't worry. Here's another multiball. Here's an extra ball. You don't get that on Demoman. you've got to be a player. Okay, can I have the conch now? I think we've each had an argument. I think the argument is over. No, I've got one more. Oh, sure. I just want to recount all the stuff that you've just been saying. Sure, sure. Because really what you're saying is, oh, people don't go for the Senators. You are now talking about 90% of players that aren't in the top 100 in IFPA. People that just enjoy games for fun play that way. They do hit the Senators targets. And also, if you're going to start talking about Senators targets being a problem, then discount almost every EM or solid state game that's ever been made. I think they're fun. Okay, I've destroyed the conscious no more argument. Fuck, where'd it go? Where'd it happen to Piggy? Where's Jack? Anyway, so we will put that up. We will put that up in about four days time after the podcast to give everybody enough time to listen to the podcast, get to this part of the podcast right at the end to hear our arguments and then you can vote for Demoman for the better game speaking of competitions as well well that's what we are we're a competition podcast go on that's all we talk about yep so there is actually another it's a poll or a competition and it's on this week in pinball it's their weekly poll of the week and the poll is what is the worst music group that's had a pinball machine. Have you seen this, Jeff? Be very fucking careful. My sides have split. Tread lightly, Marty. Go on. So, currently, I think it's probably got a few days to go, but currently, I'll give you the top five worst rated music groups that have a PMO machine. In fifth position, we have Elton John. Sure. In fourth position, with 9.7% of their votes so far, we've got Rob Zombie. In third position, with 11.3%, we've got Dolly Parton. Primus are in second position with 22% of the vote. But who do you think's got 30.8% of the votes, Jeff? Eurasia. No, it's not Led Zeppelin because they don't have a machine, but they will be top of the list when a machine comes out. That isn't happening. Who is number one? Ted Nugent. Oh, I'm not surprised. Of course. So it's not like we would ever have him on our show. Oh, that would be madness. Or it would show the wide spectrum of what your show is and not, you know, catering just to one audience. No, it's indefensible. I'm sorry. No defense. Really? for those that don't know maybe new to podcasting years ago well i for many years did a classic rock radio show so i have interviewed a lot of rock stars a lot like hundreds of rock stars so he's playing at this show nearby our radio station we're asked to promote it we're the radio station that's sponsoring it i'm like fuck you know what why don't i tie this into the fact that ted nugent once had a pinball machine made after him so i thought okay i'm gonna interview this guy and see if I can get him to talk about pinball. Well, I tried. He didn't really want to have anything to do with it. So I'm like, oh, well, I'll just play it as is. I got to tell you, dude, there are a lot of people that love that guy's music. There are a lot of people that hate that person big time. And based on, oh, I don't know, a recent election that just happened maybe south of my border, there are a lot of divided people and very polarized people. So people love things and hate things and there's not a lot of middle ground and i would say ted nugent is one of those not a lot of middle ground things but yeah that's that that was a weird pinball thing let's be honest it's a good game by the way but just what made them think that would make a good pinball machine well i don't know he might have been at the top of his game at the time before he went all nutty mcnuttisons yeah he's he's he's out there man he's crazy by the way he is radio gold i'll just say that. He used to do a radio show, and because he goes off like a madman, his nickname is the Motor City Madman, he is entertaining in the way that a Rush Limbaugh is, or an Alex Jones, or even Donald Trump. People check his tweets. Maybe they love him. Maybe they just want to see what comes out of his mouth next. That's kind of what that person is. So listen, anybody that comes on any show I do, whether it's this show, Pinball Profile, it's not an endorsement, and that's the mistake people make just because they're on doesn't mean it's a fucking endorsement it just means oh this is one aspect of pinball so there you go yeah good it wasn't we didn't really need to hear the story it was just me having a dig at you i know but i get shit for it i i do i get i get people bug me all the time about that i'm like really and fuck i put on gene simmons there are two fucking pinball machines for kiss i bring on gene simmons i asked him three specific pinball questions all he wanted to do was sell his gene simmons vault thing i'm like oh fuck i tried you know what i've had alice cooper on he was good you know i try you know i actually listened to your ted nugent on people profile and it was fine it was an interesting podcast it was entertaining so anyway i'm just having a shit stir because that's what i do but the last thing i want to talk about i want to talk about podcasts yes sir first of all for those people i'm going to be on the next Plum podcast with Crystal Gemnick. Oh, awesome. So listen for that. It was lots of fun. I think Crystal does a great job. I'm so glad that Plum's back, by the way. Yeah, same. I adore Crystal. She's amazing. Don't fuck up the show, Marty. I'm kidding. Yeah, it's really going to be compromised by having me on. But more importantly, Jeff, you have started a new podcast. It's really just a family project. It is a podcast, sure. It is with my 15-year-old son, Brady. Don't downplay it because I've listened to it. It's really good. Oh, thanks. It is something I've done with Brady. So here's the history of my family, and I mention this briefly. I am a divorced father. I have been married to my wife, Anne. We've been together for over 10 years. But my previous wife I had two children with and a stepson. So those boys are still the most important thing in my life. And, you know, because you're a divorced dad and they live 90 minutes away, I'm a weekend dad. So one thing that Brady and I have always done, and he hasn't lived with me since I was two years old, but he doesn't have the memory of ever living with his dad. And I'm speaking to a lot of divorced people out there, right? Like I'm not the only one. There's about 70%. This is the one bond that we have, and it's Star Wars. We both absolutely love it. We both got into it at the same time. And it's neat for me to see that kind of youthful excitement that I once had in my son. but he is just obsessed with Star Wars so we created My Young Padawan and we're going to do it every couple of weeks and the drive from his place to my place was 90 minutes and I said, you know Brady, this would be fun to do. We listed off 50 different topics in a half an hour of things we could talk about and that was just without even thinking. That was no Google search so it's kind of fun. It's not pinball. There will be a pinball thing too. We're going to do one about Star Wars pinball I'll have to get you on because you obviously love Star Wars pinball. But thanks for listening and, yeah, it's fun. Good fun. Production qualities are through the roof. So you've got a lot of sound bears, a lot of effects. There's a lot of effort that's gone into it. So I wanted to call it out for those people because if you're putting a lot of effort, and for those people that are into Star Wars, I couldn't listen to all of it because I know you were going to start talking about Mandalorian Season 2, which I haven't watched yet, so I didn't want any spoilers. yep but yeah there you go but it's really interesting i would encourage people to listen to my young podawan podawan yeah it's funny we we came up with all these different ideas so part of that car ride we were like what should we call it and he goes what about the escape pod i'm like that's brilliant someone's already got it we came up with all these different funny names like hello there because we love when obi-wan says that in episode three yes someone's got a hello there. I'm like, fuck. So anyway, we came up with My Young Padawan. Anyway, thanks for the plug. Appreciate it. That's right. Bill Simmons has the Ringer Network with the Rewatchables and his Bill Simmons podcast. Of course, he's paid $200 million by Spotify. I do this for free. So feel free to donate at finalroundpinballpodcast at gmail.com. No, it's not. It's just not. Jeff, we're 21 episodes in. that's 42 weeks yes that's enough time for you to remember our email address come on uh yeah yeah final round pinball at gmail.com yes yes it is i'm gonna try to do our twitter that's when i always fuck up i think it is final round pin correct i'm going for the trifecta here instagram final round pinball podcast it's the full one yes well done what's your name again Ryan it's been a pleasure talking to you this is hey thanks for Escher for joining us that was fun it's always good to talk to him Escher's great and boy we'll do this again in a couple weeks we will and next week we are going to give you all the details about how you our esteemed listener can get a reach around what's a reach around it's only the greatest award in pinball and it could be yours for a small fee look forward to it thanks everybody for listening we will speak to you then my name is Jeff Teals my name is Martin Robbins stay safe everyone