Hello everybody. We're very proud to uh have Raymond Davidson of Stern Pinball come here and be all by himself, unlike some other shows where there's a big team surrounding him. We're just talking to him today to find out uh more of the exciting and dynamic world of coding for pinball machines. And it it is pretty exciting I think in some ways. What what would you say in your recent work that like last week you just did a delivery of code for uh Metallica Remastered. What what do you think is a a good feature that you added that you're proud of?
Yeah, that was that was a really really cool release. I've been working on that for a while. Um just kind of cranking away, you know, any ideas that come to my head and then making sure they they fit with the the existing game. Um, I tried to add more incentives for combos in that game. So, you're not just always bashing things, but you're also trying to trying to keep the flow. And so, there's, uh, two new modes that are accessed via combos, the uh, the Lux Eterna and the Frantic modes. Um, and we also got that new song Lux Eterna. Um, which is a really fun song to rock out to, and it actually makes a perfect song to just try to hit combos. So, for that mode, I just gave you as much ball saver as you want, but you're on a timer and you want to just keep keep hitting the combos to refresh them. Um, and you know, Lyman Sheets, he he had a lot of modes like that where you hit a shot and it kind of adds, you know, resets the timer back to 15 and it's kind of this thrill of how long can you keep it going. Um, [clears throat] so whenever I needed inspiration, I kind of looked to his other work. Um, and I think the new new code kind of fit in there really well. Um, and it uh, yeah, we kind of jumped from 0.96 all the way to 1.0 cuz we just I just I just kept cranking and adding stuff and then we're like, I think I think that's it. I think that's all the features, you know, it's it's 1.0 now. So, um, doesn't mean we're not going to stop adding things or tweaking things or whatnot, but um, yeah, that was I was really proud of that release. And so you're uh flipping it to like bug reports and being driven by that or driven by reports from the field.
Yeah. Yeah. I mean, if there's any um big issues, I want them fixed, you know, know about them. I love watching streams. I watched Carlos uh Laserlo stream Metallic Remastered for like 6 hours and uh it held up. I was very happy. Uh he found a couple of weird things like when you beat the game and it loops back around again. Uh but you know most most people aren't going to find those. But um but anything I see you know I want to fix. So um yeah if if there's any issues you know of course we'll uh we'll update it or if there's uh something imbalance you know people are finding like this is worth way too many points or not enough points you know that sort of thing.
And would that come in as a report or would that come in from you watching people good players play and see that they're exploiting in a way? Uh, I mean, I usually maybe a little bit of both, but usually just from something I see that I don't like, I'll uh kind of give me the um incentive to fix it. But if um if people are sending in the bug reports and there's something weird happening that I didn't know about, that's, you know, I can't fix it if I don't know about it. So, don't assume I know about everything. You know, if you see something, say something sort of deal. Yeah, that that's an email address that's in the the text file that comes with the update.
Yeah. Yeah, the the readme I always try to make sure everything is in the uh the readme file. Um all the changes and and whatnot. And yeah, there's an email. I think it's bug.report sternpinball.com. Um and yeah, we see all those emails. So, anything you send, you know, we'll uh we'll look into. And so can you talk a little more broadly about what 1.0 means uh for the software guys at Stern?
Yeah, I mean 1.0 kind of means all the um the features in the grand plan you have are now in the game. So for Metallica, I always wanted a ultra wizard mode um beyond the end of the line. And I wanted something that's like, you know, if you do well in all the multiballs, you you do well in the modes, you you kind of do a little bit of everything. And there's this thing that's even higher than the end of the line. And um so once I got that in um and the other little side modes, that's kind of why I called it 1.0 because that was kind of in the plan. And now that it's in the game, you know, it's it's reached its full amount that but um you know, that's usually what 1.0 no means is anything that the designer had envisioned when starting it. You know, it's all there. All the inserts do something. Um, you know, everything feels like there's a purpose and you're not uh missing any any modes or features
and and did you happen to notice the the version number of the original Metallica that you inherited to begin your work?
Um, I don't remember. It was probably like 1.3 or something. So, um I think back then they they raised the version numbers a lot quicker. I think now we just always anytime, you know, we release we usually just go up 0.1 just to give us room um to add things. Uh unless what happened with Metallica Remastered where it went from 0.96 to 1.0 because there was such a long time and so many things got added. H well I noticed that you've done Rush and Led Zeppelin and Foo Fighters so a lot of music pins. Are you when you have a chance you saying give me that music theme or
I it's purely been coincidental [laughter] but it is funny cuz uh you know known as the music pin guy and uh people are like well I wonder what Raymond's working on next. Ah Metallica that makes sense right it's a music game. [laughter] Well, do you care to tell us who your favorite band is or?
Um, I don't know. I mean, I like um I liked all of them. Working on all of them. Um, you know, I learned a lot more as I was working on them. Um, Metallica before the first pin, I didn't really have much of their music or anything, but then when the first pin came out, I started liking the songs on the game and had the those songs on my phone and whatnot. Um, you know, Led Zeppelin, obviously, I knew them. They were they were popular. Um, but uh, Rush, I didn't really know much other than the couple radio hits, but after playing that game a lot, I really started respecting all their songs. Um, I think Far Cry is my favorite one on that game, which is one of the newer songs. Um, so it was really cool to just kind of learn all these uh these bands.
Yeah. Being somewhat older, I certainly knew Led Zeppelin uh from back when they existed. And um so I was I was discovering Rush, I think, in the same way you were. I only knew a couple of their songs. Uh but you're not specifically looking to do that. It's just
No, it's just always worked out that way. Yeah, they um you know they assign they have the their teams and the resources and it's just like a puzzle try to figure out who's best where at what time and that's just how it lined up every time. Yeah. Uh so this seems like a contrast from uh the Williams Valley way of doing things of uh the software developer pretty much got aligned with a particular uh layout guy and maybe even a mechanical engineer like the they
Well, there's there's some of that at Stern too. You know, Keith Elwin and Rick Nagel, they're always together. Yeah.
Um
and it seems like Brian and Dwight are paired together. Um, but I was, you know, when I got hired, I was kind of the wingman. So, I was kind of by design able to fit anywhere. So, um, once you're a lead, then you kind of, you know, start the project from the beginning with a designer, um, and, you know, that's kind of how those partnerships form, um, and whatnot. So, it just depends on on your role, I guess.
Mhm. Um, so are you now like a lead for good or is it you're still flexible and whatever? Uh, yeah. I mean, I um they I I kind of do whatever wherever I fit best, but I want to be a lead on something soon. I think that's probably probably likely, I would say. H [clears throat] well uh we're looking forward to uh more of your work and of course we we can't ask him what the next game is but I'm sure if he delivered the 1.0 last week that he's got something new already uh
when you go back to the office
you know what you're working on but we don't
Yep. Um, and how about uh working with Borg in particular, you know, since we've we've
Oh, working with Borg. Yeah, I love working with Borg. He um he's such an easygoing guy, man. He's so fun to be around and uh he'll I this might sound mean, but it's not. It's endearing. He he kind of throws rule ideas at a dart board and then like some of them will land and you're like, "Yeah, I like that. Okay, yeah, we can do that." And then other ones you just kind of like, "Okay, Borg. All right, we'll see." You know? [laughter] So, he's just so enthusiastic, full of ideas and and passion and uh and yeah, easy going, great to work with. Um he was he was playing uh Rush and um when we were designing it and he was like Raymond I just hit this like fiveway combo like you know and he's like hey you should put a a rule on this ramp where you can loop it and and so um I love that stuff where you kind of give me like a little idea and then I can see how I can grow it and and make something out of it and and uh yeah so we worked really well together for sure.
Yeah. And he couldn't be here this weekend. uh you know, we had him all lined up, but uh whatever it is,
duty duty calls,
whatever he's working on, he's he's in the crunch mode. And so he wasn't able to come and he kept stringing us along till even earlier this week. We thought there's maybe a 2% chance he'd come, but uh so we'll have to talk about him behind his back. [laughter] That's uh but uh yeah, I certainly enjoyed talking with him uh which last year we got him up front in this table and uh got him to talk freely which uh you know doesn't happen at too many pinball shows. So I think we're uh we're getting a few people out there that uh people should understand better. Uh later on if we have time for questions, we'll probably have to use that microphone right there uh because we want to record everything on YouTube uh for YouTube I should say that will uh be audible. So you know you probably look at some of our old YouTube videos and there are a few where the question is just you can hear some mumbling from somewhere. Um in in development uh you mentioned this looping five times rule. So Borg has this idea we should do something about that. Mhm.
Uh, how long does that take to actually code that? It sounds like it should be too hard.
Yeah, I mean, it kind of depends on what stage we are in in the development. Um, it's uh if if we already have, you know, the whitewood and and I've already gotten the base code and the devices and stuff working and I'm I'm jamming on rules, then yeah, it'll, you know, just add add some logic and see how it works. um and be and then you know build a version of it and show it to Borg and have him try it out. Um it's pretty pretty fast to iterate. Uh I'd say once you're up and running the the beginning is a little slower because you got to kind of build out the basics of the game and stuff.
Yeah, I'm I'm guessing that uh in the early stages you may not have as many switches or optos as you need to know all the ball paths and things like Yeah, there's definitely a couple revisions of of the white wood. So, you know, there's like whitewood zero, one, and two, and the designer kind of iterates as them. So, as I'm developing, you know, you'll have, like you said, you'll have switches or you won't have switches, and then once you get a new whitewood now, you'll have more switches and more lights. And so, you're always kind of updating it as the designers uh moving along as well. Um and then once you're they call it uh development uh validation that's kind of all right pencil's down on the drawing and that's when I you know okay I know this is what we have and then it's just go time just jam on code and until it gets put in a box. Okay, that pencils down is is not just like all the bent metal and uh posts and stuff. That also includes switch positions and and what you have to work with as inputs to
Yeah, I mean the design designer has freedom to to do whatever they want um up until, you know, the the cut off when we need to start ordering things. So, yeah, sometimes you'll you'll get extra switches, sometimes you'll get extra lights, just uh all depends on the game and the designer, but um it's it's fun. And and also um the earlier you join a project, the more you know you can influence that. You can work with the designer and be like, "Hey, I was thinking of this rule, but I don't have this light. You think you can add one?" Um so like on Metallica, um Borg, he had a couple of inserts like he had an extra rectangle insert over on the fuel lane and the insert between the flippers and of course all those new hardwired inserts. And I was like, "Hey, Borg, can we have this insert on the left say 2x scoring?" Because the original Metallica, you wouldn't really know if you were in 2x scoring. Um, I think he originally intended that light to be like a fuel jackpot. And I'm like, "Well, we have RGB arrows now. We'll just use the RGB for the fuel mode. It'll be orange or whatnot. I think it's more important to have the 2x." And he's like, "Oh, okay. Yeah, that's a good idea." So, he updates his drawing. He puts 2x. Um, and so
what an easygoing guy. Yeah,
great guy to work with.
Yeah, exactly. So, so even um yeah, software developers get input on on that as well. Um and um trying to just come out with whatever works best with your rule framework and and uh yeah, kind of works hand in hand.
Is there anything on Metallica Remastered that was a particular challenge that it took you days or weeks to get it right? Um, I think the um just the presentation of the uh display effects cuz it was a little different than um other games. Uh you know it was a SAM game so all that display effect system was kind of using an older version than our newer games. And so I kind of had a hybrid uh kind of cuz the you want the um the display effects to show up when you hit the shots, but you also want some priority system so that you know you're seeing the most important thing. Um but you also don't want to just sit there and wait for like 50 animations to play. Um so I kind of had to juggle all that and and tried to stay true to what the original one did. Um, and that was that was a a big challenge, but I think it it got there. So, it should mostly play like the original game where if you're hitting a combo, it'll show combo. If you hit sparky, it'll show sparky. It's kind of like whatever the last thing you did kind of wins. Um but that was uh yeah that was one of the bigger challenges is just getting all those new uh animations and also all the text you know they there was so much text um displayed like mode instructions uh jackpot values you know positioning all that making it readable um just all that display stuff always takes [snorts] the longest. Uh well, since it's a a music pin, how about uh working with a band? Have any uh experiences there that
they wanted you to do something or you wanted to do something that they didn't want or any
I didn't really work with the band directly. Um
I mean, they just they gave us a ton of songs, which is sweet. You know, we got all the original ones. Um, and then they wanted, I think, the, you know, some of the the newer stuff, so the 72 seasons. Um, so that was kind of a challenge to figure out how to how to add that to the game. Um, I think Borg did it did it really well with the just adding a fourth, you know, insert to the tree of inserts for the hardwired. Um, and then I he he also came up with a lot of the 72 seasons of, you know, the album cover that has all the little trinkets on it. Um, and so then I had to turn that into a mode. Um, but uh, yeah, the band was really good with um, call outs as well. They they let they you we just gave them a big list of things to say and they just rattled them off. Um, there was one funny incident where we got back an audio that was uh someone recorded a countdown from 10 to one.
It's like no, no, you're supposed to do like 10 9 8 7 like [laughter] it's like best call out ever.
How about the other bands? Any any stories of the working with the other bands?
Uh, yeah. I don't really have
not necessarily Led Zeppelin maybe, but [laughter]
um yeah, I wasn't really involved cuz I was a you know a wingman. So that was more the lead developer um and and game designer that would have had to interact with that. I was mostly just already hit the ground running just implementing rules and and whatnot and using using what we had from the the game the audio package already.
Okay. Uh well, we we might return to the present in a moment, but uh it it'd be good to know a little bit about um how well prepared you were to take on this job. Uh what did you have earlier in your software career that was directly applicable and what did you have to learn new coming to Stern? Yeah. So I um I got my computer science degree at the University of Washington and those courses were very heavy in C++. So a lot of um assignments was all C++ and at Stern we use C++ but my job after college I didn't use that much C++. Um, but I was working at a um a startup in the Seattle area and I we I was kind of what they called a full stack dev where cuz it's a startup you kind of do all the layers a little bit like sometimes you work on the website, you work on the database, you work on the the actual like phone app client, you work on the other different different layers. Um, so that really helped because I was able to learn things quickly and and kind of adapt. Um, different languages weren't a problem. And so when they hired me for Stern, they're like, you know, how much C++ experience do you have? And I'm like, well, I did a lot of it in school. I haven't used it recently, so I was a little rusty at first, but then it kind of came back to me and I just remembered, you know, in school. Um, uh, and it was it was pretty easy to to get back back in the groove of things. Mhm.
Uh any any accomplishments from those other jobs that were like would we know you from any of your prior work? You see anything out in the world that
uh the I mean the only real connection I I can think of is um one of the the startups. It was an app that would help small businesses post um ads like to their social networks. So they would make quick little ads and like bars and arcades. I've seen use use the app. Um, so that was kind of cool seeing like pinball places. It's like, hey, I did the code for that one little menu option as you're scrolling down. Like we, you know, I added that little feature earlier. [laughter]
Yeah. Well, since you mentioned the layered architecture, maybe uh maybe we could give some more credit to Lyman Sheets because uh I remember uh interviewing him when he had been at Stern Pinball about nine months or so and he had done nothing that the general public could see or people in RGP it was that long ago would say what's Lyman doing and
and you know the point of the interview with the Piname Journal. We were going to say, "Well, here's what he's doing. He's working on the bottom layer."
Mhm.
Um, and you must be making use of that.
Oh, every day. Yeah. It's um very useful. Um, yeah, he basically wrote all of the system code that handles all the basic stuff that all the games use, so I don't have to think about it. Like, at the end of the ball, you go to the next ball. Oh, have three balls happened. all the adjustment systems, the just everything that all the games use um is just all in these little system calls. So you just you just access it and use it. And if um they're very customizable, too. So they he had a system where if you don't do anything, the system will do its version of it. But if you want to intervene or do something a little bit different, um there's kind of these like hooks that that you can kind of latch on to and and alter things. So when you when you come up with a game rule and you're like, "Well, this is different than what we normally do." Um most of the time you can still do it even though it's different than what normally happens. And um you know, worst case scenario, you just ask the system team to add add a new something or rather to help you get what you want. But um yeah, it's it's been great um working on all that working with that excellent uh foundation that Lyman wrote um all those years ago. Yeah, that's that's one thing that I remember particularly from that interview was uh Stern's problem and the reason they justified hiring him is their system was too inflexible and you know there there was a allocation for sound and there was an allocation for dots and
uh you you couldn't shift your resources around. Uh
yeah, the um I'm guessing that's going from Whit Star to SAM because yeah, Whitestar I think there's even like display ROMs and and game ROMs and it's all written in assembly and
yeah, I mean it's I'm glad I didn't have to work in that era cuz now it's it's we're so spoiled for sure. And it helps us iterate a lot faster. Yeah, I I imagine that your uh day-to-day is is more at a level of game specific um point values and uh
Mhm.
what what display to trigger at what time or that display overlaying that you mentioned.
Yeah, just all the all the game specific logic. Um you just use the system as a as a tool basically. Um, and uh, it helps you just get things going. You want a light to turn on, you tell it to turn on. You know, you don't have to worry about how it turns it on, you just tell it which light turns it on. Um, and so it's it's very handy.
Mhm. And, uh, and sound is is flexible enough.
Yeah. Sound, you know, you got all these different sound calls. Um, you can loop things. You can uh have it pick from a random call out. Um, you can you can even have it pick from a random call out and have it tell you which one it picked so that you know in the future if you don't want that one or you each of the sounds have like a history that they keep track of so that you can tell it all right pick something from this list but don't ever pick something until you've at least explored five options. Like there's so much and it's so nice cuz then you just focus on okay here are the sound callouts I want. I want them in these places. And even that is a big task because you got like a thousand lines you got to spread out throughout the game. You don't want to be thinking about all that logic. And so just having the system code already there is super helpful.
Yeah, I kind of wish we could put some code up on the screen, but
that's for an advanced seminar in the future. Um any anything different about uh the non-m music pin you did Avengers Infinity Quest? Anything? Uh
uh yeah, that was kind of when I started that was my first um project was I was winging with Rick Nagel on Avengers. Um, basically I would try to just implement the rules as Keith wrote in this big document and um, I'd work with Keith and I'd be like, "Hey Keith, is this what you wanted?" He's like, "Uh, that's not quite what I wanted." Or, "Yeah, thumbs up." And then like sometimes I'd put stuff in exactly as he said and he'd be playing it and he'd be like, "Uh, this isn't that fun. What if we did this?" And I'd be like, "Yeah, seems like a good idea." Um, so even then when I first started I was kind of bouncing ideas off off each other. Um, and then I also got to do kind of my own uh little things. Um, you know, I did like all the the gem modes and the um that computer grid on the left. A lot of that although you know a lot of that Keith designed but I had to implement. So there was a lot of kind of just implementing what what was designed um while also doing some of my own interpretations or additions. Um so that was a that was a fun project um to get started with. Um and Rick was super helpful anytime I had a question. Um so I think that's the same path Elizabeth Gizki took. She started with I think Jaws with uh with Rick as well. So, um, yeah, that was that was a good way to get kind of get my feet wet for sure.
Yeah, it sounds like you felt like you were part of the team right away and
got got to be creative.
That's Do you have any other thoughts about what is a creative software developer? cuz I think you're explaining it pretty well already. But
yeah, I Yeah, basically just always um open for feedback and um
and you are trying to do capital F, capital U, capital N. So that that probably helps a lot.
Yeah, you want it to be fun. A lot of times you'll come up with an idea that you think is fun, you'll put it in, and then it's just not fun and you're like, what what happened? It it sounded so good.
Can you give an example? Um, I mean, a lot of times what ends up happening is I'll come up with an idea of like, you know, you hit these are your build shots, this is your collect shots, these other shots, build how much this thing is building, and then you play it and you're just like, I can't really tell that it's happening very well. or you see people play it and they don't really know what's happening or or what often happens is oh this is way too many shots. So like on Foo Fighters actually this is kind of a good example. Um I originally so right now on Foo Fighters the first mode you play um it sort of is less shots to beat then the next mode is more and then more and more. And so where the sixth mode is, that was originally how hard all the modes were going to be, which was like 14 shots, let's say. And my idea was, let's have the modes hard to incentivize you to build up the van to power you up so that you have spots shoted. You know, you're getting more progress from the the thing and you want to add time. Um, but the problem is having someone just start their first mode and and have to hit 14 shots was a lot and it wasn't as fun as it sounded when you didn't get the uh the boost.
Yeah, [laughter] it sounds like kind of a project there. Do all this stuff.
And so it was really hard to come up with a solution because I didn't just want to cut the shots in half and and be like because I really wanted that vanod section to mean something. And so, um, you know, I got the feedback from from Jack and Tanya of like, we got to do something. This is way too many shots. And I'm like, okay, what about if your first time you get six shots spotted for you, and then the next time you get five shots and four, so we kind of ease people into the mode so they, you know, get a little bit harder. And, uh, it worked really well. Um, and so that's what we did. Um, so that was a a really good solution. um taken after feedback after something you thought was good and then ended up not being good but then we made it good.
Mhm. That's all pre 1.0 pre-shipping.
Yeah. I think that was um that was in I think before the public played it cuz it was right around TPF that year. The crazy TPF. We were scrambling, you know, like what do we do? What do we do? Okay, we'll do this. And so we got that in right before the um the TPF uh show. So, everyone got to experience it.
Been in a few crunches yourself, huh?
Yeah. Yeah. It kind of it sometimes makes you uh you get the the best idea uh quicker or like it inspires you somehow. You know, you motivated.
Yeah. Or your urge to converge on a solution is heightened.
Yep. But other things, it's it's nice to have more time to like if you have an idea that you think has promise, but you know it's going to take some time to kind of get there, then you you know, you don't want to rush those ones. You want to make sure you're iterating and uh kind of tweaking get the right values of things so they're fun.
Do you have an example of that? Uh yeah, like the Lux Eterna mode where you start with like 60 seconds and then you hit some combos and now you get more time and you hit some combos. So there was like three parameters I had to tweak where it's like all right, how much time should you start with? How much time should you get when you advance the level? How much how many points should they be worth? And what should you have to do to advance levels? And so, so I I started off with one thing and then I had some people test it and it just seemed like, okay, that that looked a little too hard or like, oh, that didn't seem like it was worth many points. Okay, let me try raising it. Uh, okay, that that went on forever. Or, oh, that ended way too quick. Like, you just kind of get a feel for it, you know, just just by playing it. Hm. Okay. So, in that in that regard, it's actually tying back to what we had Jim Patla talk about a few years ago in when he started in the 60s. That was part of his job is just play it over and over and measure how much playing time you get, but not just the game as a whole, but individual steps and things you can do. How often do you hit them? and
just
uh is partly statistical but you don't want to just try to put counters on everything and look at the numbers. You want to get a feel.
Yeah, there is kind of an art and a science I would say for sure.
Um well, we have uh you have Steve Ritchie coming up. Any any Led Zeppelin development stories of of note?
Uh I didn't really work with Steve directly. Um, I was the the wingman, but um, he would also kind of have his own ideas of I want this lane changeable on the target bank. We're like, uh, okay, Steve. [laughter] Uh, sure. Um, and, uh, you know, he just he designed a game with a lot of, you know, fast moving shots. So, we, you know, we had the Icorus multiplier where you're having combos build your multiplier. Um, and you know, as long as as as long as Steve kind of got the little things that he asked for, we kind of had free reign to kind of do whatever with the rules. So I I went to town with all the multiball rules, came up with cool, you know, jackpot progressions and things. Um, so that was that was a fun that was a pretty fun project. I got to um you know really add my own rules and things that I had concocted and and see how they play and um just get them all in the game and and uh Steve was pretty pretty easy going and you know as long as his game was rocking out and shooting things and you know he's like yeah but
[clears throat]
um
well this seems like a good time to uh bring up a a question which I've anticipated uh some Some of you may have and that is uh you are one of the top players uh in the world and what are you doing to have like good ethical handling of of all your deep knowledge of the games you did the code for? [laughter]
Yeah, it does feel weird sometimes. You know, I always I don't know, maybe I subconsciously won't pick my own games in tournaments if I can avoid it, which I, you know, I shouldn't. I I should be able to pick whatever games. Um, but maybe subconsciously sometimes I won't, you know, if there's an option between a game I worked on and another game I like, you know, I might pick that game. Um, but my uh my stance has always been I will tell you anything if you just ask me. Um, so just like if you want to know exactly how something works, I will tell you exactly how something works. Um, so I want that information out there. And I also all my games I always make a a rule sheet. There's a PDF online. Um, and also Tilt Forums is a good resource. I will answer questions or update things. Um, and uh, yeah, I just I just want everyone to be on the same, you know, playing field. Um, so I don't so I don't feel bad, you know. [laughter]
Right. Yeah. Yeah. And and you don't get a lot of resentment in the online.
But honestly, I mean, even if you know the rules, I mean, anyone can who has played in tournaments can attest just knowing the rules of a game. You know, you have your favorite game at home, you know it inside and out. You go to a tournament, it's going to play totally different. you're and [clears throat] so it's it might help a little bit, but um at the end of the day, you got to play on the table that's in front of the machine that's in front of you.
Do you you have all your own games at home?
Uh yeah, I have um I I just have uh right now I think I have a James Bond and a Jaws Premium. Um but I've owned a you know Godzilla and and other things. um just stern games that are um and uh I actually I have a doodle bug. It's a fun game. I got to get it working again though. I'm I'm bad at uh fixing things. [laughter]
Well, on on your modern sterns that you have at home, uh do you have extra hard rules or what do you do this tournament?
It's funny. A lot of a lot of tournament players will set their games up super hard and brutal to practice, but I I got into pinball because I liked the journey and the rules and navigating things and, you know, where's my next extra ball? You know, what's my next step? And so I leave my games completely factory. Um uh and just play it play it as the game, you know, kind of as was intended. Um, and then when I go to tournaments, I uh I have to adjust a little bit. Um, you know, some of the strategies, you you kind of condense a little bit because it's not going to be relevant. You're not going to play that long to get to that mode. Um, so you just got to focus on what is closest uh to the flipper. Um, but that mentality also kind of helps me uh design code rules too, so that you know I'm playing a tournament on a game where I'm only seeing the first this amount. Well, a lot of people who play pinball, they're only also seeing the first this amount. So, that that kind of actually helps that uh perspective a little bit.
Yeah. What was your first game at home as a kid?
Uh, it was a Gotle 1976 uh Pioneer. It's the uh two-player version of Spirit of 76. It was at my uh grandparents house. Um and uh I don't know, I was like four or five years old, just barely reaching the flipper buttons, and my dad would teach me, you know, this is pinball. You hit these down, you get double bonus. You hit these, you get the extra ball. And I just I don't know. I fell in love with it right away.
When When did you feel like you were a good player? Um, I don't know. I I I uh I always when I learned you could get replays, I really started seeking out rules online and kind of motivated me for finding pinball machines in in restaurants. You know, can we go to this restaurant? They have a pinball machine. Uh, I want to see how long I can play play it on on my dollar or whatever. Um, and so my first tournament was in 2008 at the Northwest Pinball and Arcade Show. And it was it's called the Northwest Pinball Championships, which still runs to this day. Um, and they asked, "Do you want to be in the novice division or the open division?" I'm like, "Well, what's the difference?" And they're like, "Well, the open division you can earn world ranking points." And I was like, "Oo, I want to be worldly ranked.
[laughter]
So I uh I signed up and it was a format where you you know as many tries as you want try to get the high score and um I did well enough that I qualified and that kind of like immediately hooked me. And so then the next year I came back and it was a much bigger tournament. People had heard about it. People were flying in. Uh and I kind of I did not do very well. I I didn't qualify. Um it was kind of a brutal format, too. You had to play all seven games. You couldn't like nowadays you get to pick like I want to pick these five out of 20. It was seven games. You had to play all seven and they all had to be good. And uh there was like one or two games. I think it was Future Spa that did me in cuz I had no idea what a tap pass was. I I didn't realize like how big bonus was. I didn't you know and and so because I couldn't get a score on that game, I didn't qualify. But it it kind of motivated me to kind of start going to even more tournaments. Um so then the year after that uh I got top four and I got second uh to Keith Elwin in a finals. Um many of first finals getting second to Keith Elwin. [laughter] Um but uh that was really exciting when I had that really good finish. Um, and I kind of used that money to fund my trip to Papa, which I had always dreamed of going to. And, uh, I got my butt kicked at Papa my first time. And I, you know, I spent a lot of money, too. So, it wasn't a lack of trying. I just, I wasn't ready yet. Um, but even that, that just motivated me to keep keep playing. And so, I joined local scene things, you know, Seattle Pinball League. Uh, started traveling to the closer shows in like San Jose. There was California Extreme that was easy to get to. I was living in Seattle. Um and so then after that I started going to every Papa qualif started qualifying for those. Started going to all the world events qualified. My first world event was in Seattle and that was a heartbreaker because I missed qualifying by like it was a 12-way tie at like 94 points which is unheard of because normally you need like 98 points and they were like we can't believe this but you're still alive technically. And of course I got second in the tiebreaker and I almost qualified my first worlds. It was so close. Um but uh I just kept at it and then I eventually won the Worlds in I think 2015 in Denmark and uh that was that was really exciting because that was the first time I'd ever flown outside of the US and so that's part of what I really like about tournaments is it gives you an excuse to travel places. Um you know and uh if you even if you break even or or win anything back it's like well I I got this trip out of it too. So,
yeah. Well, I hope you're enjoying New Robert Englunds. I know you've been here a few times.
Yeah.
Um, is anybody just dying to ask a question here? Because I' i've got a few more, but uh All right, just yell it out. I'll repeat it. a new rule out. How do you know if it's gonna work?
So, the the question sounds like uh is a simulation in some way going to help? Um, it seems to me you've got to have realistic timing of the ball just going across open space and stuff like that and maybe spin on the ball. But is is there any hope that simulation would give you any good measurements of play?
Yeah, for like testing. Um, I guess the question was kind of like, you know, you add a new rule and now your state machine has changed and you want to make sure you catch all the different possibilities because you might go this one path and now things are set up one way or you go this other path and set up this other way. So, a lot of bugs will happen when something you didn't expect, you know, oh, this person did this, this, this, then this, and then this. And I never found that in my testing. the the ball hopped over the divider and it's on this side and it hit this switch.
Yeah, that can happen too, you know. Um, so you got to be prepared for for everything. And uh, honestly, it's just a lot of with the glass off. You just have to go and try everything yourself. Um, and try to write your code in a way that um, things are kind of independent of, you know, the order. Like there's like you know a lot of times for rules and things it'll be written in a way that's like can I advance this rule? Well if you have any multiball running or any whatever running no you can't. And the way you catch those bugs of like oh I accidentally stacked this thing with this other thing that I didn't think you could stack because they did it in this order. Um, I know some people like Tanyo when he's developing a game, he'll have a spreadsheet of like the stacking spreadsheet and basically as you're plugging in the rules in the code that says, "Okay, you know, little Deadpool can only be started if you're not in a battle, not in a whatever." and you'll add that to the spreadsheet and and and just kind of keep track and that way you can at least see in kind of a visual representation of well what if someone has this but not this should this be possible and you can kind of get ahead of answering that question. Um but as far as using I think you mentioned like AI or simulations I mean the best simulation is just having Nick Wayne bang on your game for like 2 hours. He's he's really good.
Mhm. Well, he's second generation big pinball family. Um, other questions from Yep. Okay.
Okay. So, I I think the general question is uh insider connected. We know you're trying to develop specialized achievements and stuff, but what about the data that comes in from insider connected? Is there anything that is influencing your design thinking? Yeah. So, I mean, obviously all those achievements, we can see how many how often people are getting achievements. So, you'll see the insider quests when they're arranged from easy to hard. The percentages are usually like, you know, oh, 50% of people play a game get this achievement, so that's an easy achievement. Oh, only 2% of people are getting this one, so this is a harder achievement. Um, oh, 0% of people got this one. Maybe we should make it a little easier. Um, so there's kind of that level. Um, and also I can get kind of like scores of like, oh, this, um, mode total is being completed with this average score. You know, maybe I want to increase the score or lower the score. Um, like on Metallica, I found out people were getting way too many points from the spinners. they were getting just hundreds of millions. Um, and so I was able to kind of fix that for 1.0. Um, but it's, you know, I don't know how much I can talk about and also I don't really know cuz it's kind of the insider team. Um, but, uh, as a general rule of thumb, you know, any anywhere you see like achievements, you know, that kind of helps us inform how often people are are getting those achievements.
Hi, Dennis. Do you see AI coming into existence with machines?
Well, I I think we need to make a little stipulation on the AI question that Larry Demar said that he used AI in the implementation of thing flips and the Adams family, but I think what it it ultimately compiled to was just deterministic code, not really uh
Right. Yeah. I mean, yeah, I don't I don't know. Uh,
so
yeah, I I don't personally use any I mean,
yeah, I don't I don't really need the AI right now, I guess, but uh I'm not Things are always moving. So,
yeah, there might be an application. What Larry was saying is that AI was a front-end thing that made it easier for him to write in some way, but it didn't really become the machine having AI embedded in it. Yeah, that's that's probably
something. What? Say what?
John Wick some kind of
John Wick. Does that
Well, the the John Wick AI was just, you know, it's it's it's uh getting it it it will block certain shots based on, you know, what mode shots are lit. It's it's just kind of uh it's like you said, deterministic, but
yeah,
kind of learn like it just it's contextsensitive, I guess. You know, I don't know. So that sounds a lot like the spreadsheet thing, Tanio's spreadsheet,
right? But but it but it feels like it's it's maybe more even more adaptive just because there there can be yeah more states and things and and different um you know all the enemies want to go to this shot because it's lit for this mode or uh oh he's doing this let's add more enemies you know that sort of thing. I'm not sure exactly, but I only worked on that game a little bit.
Um, this is not really a question, more of a would this be helpful to you if um if we could uh submit uh bugs that we find through connected.
So, is it an alternative to email? How about submitting bugs by insider connected? That's a good idea. I'll I'll suggest that just like like if you're in your app like a uh submit a bug or something or
it's a great idea.
Well, like we have here at Pintastic New Robert Englunds where you scan that uh QR code on the game card and submit a repair ticket is right there.
Yeah.
Yeah, it's a great idea. over here. Steve, it concerns the balance between game comprehension. By that I mean the amount of things you put in a game versus the amount you can properly convey to the player.
Yeah. So
so that they understand what's going on. I'm interested in to know any kind of debates that develop teams had that.
Okay.
So that normal people can play the game. So Steve Bowen, a top player and a game rules developer in his own right, asks from the audience, uh, what internal debates do you have or what can you say about the age-old question of the player comprehending what they need to do with the game and maybe even a kind of top- down way. Well, the big picture is you do this and then you have to break it down from there. Yeah, it's kind of an age-old um I think Bowen uh referred to it as comprehensive versus complexity of something can be comprehensive but not necessarily complex which is kind of what you're aiming for where it's not overwhelming but there's a lot there. You know, there's substance cuz if you go too far in the other direction people get bored because they realize yes it's easy to understand but that's all it is. That's all there is to do. So you um you really have to uh start kind of kind of small and then branch out in a way that um people can discover on their own if they want but um it might not ne be necessary. Um I can't think of any um
well let's let's take one particular aspect of that. What what's your personal opinion about uh the screen being used to say here's a player tip that is context to specific to where you are now. You could go here
that you get more points here and here
or even down to the level of the compass and uh JJP's pirates that says
there go.
Yeah. I mean, I I like the screen as a way of putting things so that they exist so that someone who wants to dissect a game can see clearly like, oh, this shot's worth more than this other shot. Um, that's cool. Like, let me go for this one. Or maybe when you start a mode, it'll have some instructions while the ball's held and and and you can feel free to skip it and ignore it, or you can actually read it. But I think the playfield has to be the main source of if I see a flashing shot and I hit it, I expect good things to happen. And that that can be kind of hard. I've I've struggled with that where if I want to have a rule where there's a build and collect, but also there's a way to beat the mode, I find a lot of times people just want to know how to beat the mode and they get confused very quickly if they're hitting things and they don't feel like anything's happening. Well, and and we saw that yesterday with Dick Dick Hamill's seminar about what he did to Black Knight where, you know, no screen, not even dots to give you any instructions. There are points in the game with his rules where do I battle this thing now or do I save it for the bigger payoff later, which is kind of how good a player am I? Will I be able to last long enough to get the big payoff by not doing the battle now, which is a pretty good payoff? So, I think there's uh more that can be done to communicate, but I'm not sure how you're going to do it. The if you think you're good enough, then you should not do this right now. Even though it says right now, this will get you the most points right now.
Yeah. I mean, that's um that's one way that is is is helpful is where you kind of give um something that's accessible and you can beat it or you can start it, but for the people that care, you know, maybe you dangle the carrot of like uh you give that ore option of like or continue like a lot like in Godzilla, there's all those tier 2 monster battles where you can collect or continue. And I think that's the key to really making complexity or comp comprehensive rules that aren't necessarily complex is you have to be just super obvious about what is happening where you know you hit a shot, the ball's held, you can either continue or you can beat the mode. Like if you want to just move on to the next thing, you hit done and I'm done. um rather than if the other way they could have done it, right, is they could have had, oh, you have to hit five total shots of red and that completes the mode, but you can hit as many blue shots as you want.
And that would be confusing because you're hitting blue shots, but you're not beating the mode, you know. So that's the kind of differentiation that really helps is um just presentation choreography and then lights that mean shoot me cuz that's what people uh you know and sound effects too. You really there's a lot of times um you hear a call out and it says like shoot the left ramp and maybe the left ramp's like blinking a little bit but like maybe there's like a lot of other stuff blinking too. If you hear shoot the left ramp, you know there's something going on and that'll kind of just wake you up and be like, "Oh, what's Oh, I have this hurry up running." Um, you know, like on Metallica when things are going crazy, you might not notice the captive ball hurry up has started and but there's like a call out that's like smash that ball, you know, that sort of thing.
So, still an area for improvement, I guess. Yeah, that's it's one of the hardest things for sure.
Yeah. You think there's going to be another generation of even deeper rules or have we kind of maxed out?
I think um
I mean you're selling 75% to the home now. So
yeah, I mean you just got to do it the right way, right? I don't think there's a limit. I mean I if there is a limit, I'd say it's like like an asintote, right? where you can always make it a little bit more, but maybe there is some limit, but you don't really know what it is. Um, that's kind of how I think of it.
And speaking of limits, uh, we take a last call for questions. And seeing none, I want to thank you very much for coming up here and doing this.
Yeah, thanks. Thanks for having me.
Hope you haven't slipped too far down in the uh, Silver Ball Rumble rankings while you're doing this. Oh, hi Beth. Steve says I'm fine. All right.
Okay. Well, I'll head back out there. [applause] Thanks for coming.