Episode 670: "Why Dragon’s Lair Pinball is Dumb"

Kaneda's Pinball Podcast (Patreon feed)·podcast_episode·32m 8s·analyzed·Apr 20, 2022

Analysis

claude-haiku-4-5-20251001 · $0.029

TL;DR

Kaneda excoriates Dragon's Lair Kickstarter as fraudulent, dismisses boutique manufacturers.

Summary

Kaneda criticizes the Dragon's Lair Kickstarter as fundamentally flawed due to licensing fraud and poor thematic fit for pinball, arguing the IP was already a terrible arcade game unsuited to static artwork. He contends that only Stern, Jersey Jack, and Chicago Gaming Company are necessary manufacturers, dismisses boutique companies as failures, discusses Haggis Pinball's opacity and refund delays, attacks Deep Root's design philosophy and leadership, and reports quality issues with Spooky Pinball's Halloween and Chicago Gaming's Cactus Canyon.

Key Claims

Dragon's Lair Kickstarter creator does not have a license from Digital Leisure/Dragons Layer LLC
high confidence · Direct email quote from Paul Gold at Digital Leisure confirming the person 'has yet to secure any license' and 'nothing firm has been agreed to'
99.99% of pinball Kickstarters have failed
medium confidence · Kaneda's assertion; stated as general industry fact but not sourced
Only Stern, Jersey Jack, and Chicago Gaming Company are necessary manufacturers when all three are firing on all cylinders
medium confidence · Kaneda's opinion; 'Those three companies when they have all of their manufacturing going and they can get out like hundreds of games a week or a month, we don't need more'
Spooky Pinball is the only boutique company that has made money
medium confidence · Kaneda's assertion; 'The only company that's made money in the boutique space is Spooky Pinball'
Haggis Pinball refund wire transfer process is taking longer than expected (weeks instead of 48 hours)
high confidence · Kaneda discussing friend's correspondence with Damien at Haggis; 'every week I check in with this Damian and it's all about waiting for the wire transfer to come through'
Deep Root Pinball wasted $61 million and completed no games
medium confidence · Kaneda's characterization; 'they were using that to pretend that they were an American Pinball company... they had no idea how to manufacture anything'
Halloween Collector's Edition has a clear coat defect on gold armor that causes discoloration from hand oils
high confidence · Kaneda's direct observation; 'There is not enough clear coat on it... the gold turns to black. You actually end up discoloring the armor with the oil from your hands'
Cactus Canyon drop targets are experiencing issues due to re-engineered opening size
medium confidence · Kaneda reports CGC 're-engineered the drop targets' and smaller opening may be causing problems

Notable Quotes

“The stupidest idea you could possibly do is to fund American Pinball Kickstarter”
Kaneda @ early in episode — Thesis statement for American Pinball criticism
“Thanks for reaching out. The person you mention has reached out to Digital Leisure and Dragons Layer LLC, the licensing arm for all things Dragon Layer, but has yet to secure any license.”
Paul Gold, Digital Leisure @ mid-episode — Direct confirmation that Dragon's Lair Kickstarter creator lacks licensing rights
“Pinball is artwork. Artwork is not pinball.”
Kaneda @ mid-episode — Kaneda's critique of Deep Root's design philosophy; framed as 'the Kaneda phrase of 2022'
“Every single thing he brought to pinball that he thought was an innovation was actually dumb... He created a million more problems than he solved.”
Kaneda @ mid-episode — Harsh critique of Robert Mueller and Deep Root Pinball's design innovations
“If I was in the pinball world as a creative I would want to be at Stern Pinball. That is the one place I wanna be.”
Kaneda @ late-mid-episode — Statement on career preferences for pinball designers and artists
“If these innovations were what people wanted in pinball, we would see them from stern pinball, from jersey Jack from other companies out there that are successful.”
Kaneda @ mid-episode — Logic used to dismiss Deep Root's design innovations
“Stop remaking games in ugly cabinets. Nobody wants that backbox... The artwork on Oktoberfest is arguably one of the worst art packages of all time.”
Kaneda @ late-episode — Critique of American Pinball's strategy to reissue Houdini and Oktoberfest
“The gold turns to black. You actually end up discoloring the armor with the oil from your hands. And it is bad. Like it looks really, really bad.”
Kaneda — Description of Spooky Halloween quality issue

Entities

KanedapersonPaul GoldpersonJack DangerpersonDragon's Lair PinballgameAmerican PinballcompanyStern PinballcompanyJersey Jack Pinballcompany Chicago Gaming CompanycompanySpooky Pinball

Signals

?
machine_intel: Dragon's Lair Kickstarter revealed as unlicensed; creator claims IP rights without formal agreement
high · Direct email from Paul Gold at Digital Leisure confirming no license has been secured
?
product_concern: Spooky Pinball Halloween Collector's Edition has clear coat defect on gold armor causing hand-oil discoloration
high · Kaneda's direct observation and multiple owners reporting the issue; 'the gold turns to black'
?
product_concern: Chicago Gaming Company Cactus Canyon experiencing drop target failures after re-engineering
medium · Kaneda reports drop targets having issues with redesigned opening; cause not yet confirmed
?
industry_signal: Kaneda argues only three manufacturers (Stern, JJP, CGC) are necessary when all are operating at full capacity
medium · Stated opinion: 'I don't think we really need many other companies other than Stern, CGC and Jersey Jack... Those three companies are all we need'
?
business_signal: Haggis Pinball experiencing refund processing delays (weeks instead of expected 48 hours)
high · Kaneda checking weekly on friend's refund status; still pending despite being initiated months ago
?
operational_signal: Haggis Pinball maintaining secrecy around Fathom production despite May 2026 deadline approaching in five weeks

Transcript

groq_whisper · $0.096

0:00

Dragon's Lair, fantasy adventure where you become a valiant knight on a quest to rescue the fair princess from the clutches of an evil dragon. Welcome to Kaneda's Pinball Podcast, the only pinball podcast where Jack Danger is not allowed to join the show. Everybody, I want to give a shout out to our latest club members. We are at 480. It keeps growing. 就是음의기능 리 Алекс científic은 플리박읍 bé죠 건뿡 아주 아란탠탠 이건 gambleingenици 순종 an자안강한 acehrя 김 heelian Game roof inici친간우 백 kör problemas gehört자 어느 weaker 환젠우겠음을 작사게된 지여 vineent limit 해고 매일 아�겠다 군 messaging을 비판 The stupidest idea you could possibly do is to fund a pinball Kickstarter and then just a couple things going on in the pinball world with the different manufacturers that are out there. How does that sound for an episode of Kaneda's Pinball Podcast on a Wednesday? Are you getting your money's worth people? You bet you're getting your money's worth. Alright, so let's start with Dragon's Lair Pinball and I think there are two main reasons why I think a Kickstarter around this theme is absolutely stupid. I'll tell you why. The reason number one is I think Dragon's Lair is a horrible theme for a pinball machine. I'm going to explain why. And the other reason is is 99.99% of pinball Kickstarters have failed. So you just know you're going to lose your money. And we all know by now going from a prototype game to being able to manufacture a pinball machine is next to impossible. But this one's even easier to call dead on arrival simply because the person who's making this game and it's somewhere I think overseas is making this game. The person making this game has already lied to the community. They said they had the license to make the game. And that bit of information is crucial because we all saw what happened with Kevin Kulik and with Predator. And when you don't have the license, it's real simple. You don't have permission to make the game. And I want to give a shout out to Pinside member treybow69 because he reached out to the license holder of and I want to read the response from the license holder. They said, Thanks for reaching out. The person you mention has reached out to Digital Leisure and Dragons Layer LLC, the licensing arm for all things Dragon Layer, but has yet to secure any license. They have simply presented their ideas for the project, but nothing firm has been agreed to. I have forwarded your email to the DLLC as they have They will be direct point of contact for such a project and will follow up with the individual posting to the Facebook group. Thanks for the details. Best regards, Paul Gold over at Digital Leisure. So there you go. The guy is looking to raise money to make a game that he does not have permission to make. And look, everyone is cool with boutique people making a one of one licensed version of a game, right? We all love seeing the Nightmare Before Christmas or the airplane game, Sonic the Hedgehog Pinball, right? There's many more people out there that are making these games because they love the property. Now going from that to a manufacturer capable of getting people games they paid for, it's never worked out. We've seen this fail time and time again. Now the other reason I think this is absolutely inane and asinine is this. I think Dragon's Lair is an absolute horrible theme for a pinball machine and here's why. It was absolutely a horrible arcade machine. And look, I grew up in the and the best thing about dragons layer was the intro to the game like you would walk by it and you would hear that introduction you would see like this cartoon that seemingly felt like you could play the cartoon and then you jump on the machine itself and it is probably one of the worst game plays in the history of arcades like you realize real quick the whole thing is just about memorizing which way to move the joystick and that's it and then you get to see more and the cartoon play out and that's it it's a laser disc game and it's bad like it's really bad now look it was still one of the coolest machines back in the day in the arcade for some reason like that intro that I just played you always heard it over all the other games like it just pulled you in audio and visually pulled you into the experience and then it was horrible now let me ask you a question how would this make sense as a pinball machine the entire Dragon's The Game is a game about watching the cartoon take place. Now a static pinball machine artwork package would not do this game justice. This game itself was all about moving the joystick in the right direction to see more video. But pinball is not good at showing you more video. But then I was like, look this is bad for a static artwork pinball machine. But then I was like, you know what? There is only one platform. There is only one pinball platform where Dragon's Lair actually makes maybe perfect pinball. Canada, VA Forcementsoy P3 Pele emergence

6:28

I was talking to a friend off line and I will just tell you right now what I said. I don't think we really need many more companies other than Stern, CGC and Jersey Jack. I mean it when I say it. Those three companies when they have all of their manufacturing going and they can get out like hundreds of games a week or a month, we don't need more. Right? Think about it. Those three companies arguably make the best pinball machines and they make the greatest and they keep making new games every year stern makes like three to four new games every year Jersey Jack every 18 months CTC like every three years but when they're all firing those three companies are all we need now it would be nice to have a dark horse like an american pinball actually figure it out for once and add something to the mix it would also be nice if spooky pinball could mature and actually make a game worthy of what they're charging like they've been around a The Decade now and there's just no more excuses for spooky games not being at least at the level of a stern pro ding ding ding They need to hire more people to get there but you know what I'm saying like those top three like if you had Stern making three games a year and Jerseyjack with one game a year and CGC with one new game a year you would have five Amazing pinball machines to choose from five now. That's enough in my book How many of you want to buy more than five machines a year now? Now I know we love having all these options but the truth is this even though there like eight or nine pinball companies right now that are claiming to be pinball manufacturers how many of them are really executing how many of them have been efficient how many of them have made pinball games that are great right what the point there are so many great pinball machines that have already been made and those games keep going up in value and I going to say it a great game A game is a great game wait for it forever. It doesn't stop being great. It's like a great movie. It becomes a classic, and I've said this, and I'll say it again. I think the biggest letdown of all these modern boutique companies is that none of them have made a game that any of us would consider an amazing classic game that people will enjoy years and years and years from now, right? All these companies that have thrown their hat into the ring. How many of us look at their games fondly? How many games in the top like 20 are from these boutiques? Now two sneak their way in. We've got Big Lebowski and we've got Alien, but we both know the story on these companies. Like right, it's like these games are both like six, seven years old and they're still making these same games. Imagine if Stern made one game seven years ago, failed to get those games to people who paid for them, Knapp, which is both of these companies and then never made another game. All of you would be out of pinball, right? Think about it. How boring would this hobby be if Stern operated like these companies? And I've said it before and I'll say it again. These companies are just failures. They're failures. This is not successful business. No way that pinball brothers or Dutch pinball is making any money. The only company that's made money in the boutique space is Spooky Pinball and they've done it right within their world. I would argue that The game could be better, they need to be better, but look, they've done it the right way for a small startup and I will always give them credit for that. Do I think the games are great? You know Rick and Morty is their best game but arguably as a shooter I'm not the biggest fan. So just to put a bow on this, we don't need dragons, Lair, Kickstarter, Pinball. Alright, let's stick with boutiques for a minute. So Haggis Pinball, still no pictures, still no update. Here's the part I don't understand. I was listening to the and one of their correspondents said that they traveled over to Haggis Pinball and they saw production happening with Fathom Pinball and I was like well that's great but then I'm like why can't Damien and Marty show other people the progress that this person apparently saw and I don't know why this continues to be a secret you gave them your money a year ago some of you have paid in full and when you pay It does business in the spring digamos como artístico還有 vieja em neutralranceとして It drags dalla Kuponex Market I was taking ASTO's Free p charges En 一切ド Hivery I did not practice also ASTO I did not talk abt Eastfast and educator Jeremychevostokai seeked assistance for freepedo, asınaужд Celine confuse Ahmad CaitOrginal hierạtcessowi, foliage, coconut участaide Hosta hospice oxide, The game is a game that you need to finish the game and without it you can't make the game. Do they have every single part they need in house? Because as we know a game cannot go to a customer unless it's 100% everything is there in the build. You know I learned a lesson this weekend with my demon when I went to go start it up. The battery died and just that one item, that one two A $200 item absolutely bricked and made useless my 840 horsepower muscle car. And pinball building is a lot like that without one item. And it could be something as simple as a gate or as a rail, as coil stops, whatever it is, it could be anything. It could be lockdown bars. Whatever it is, it could just be one item and without it we can't make the game. Something interesting is happening in the won't sell analog in 90 Sex, Zeldaultura,,- asOOOOzo, contaminoxy,스킅 nadie, Thai electoralこれは côngُثdest ils v் infants Spike, �้լ recruitment Kings conjugason我跟你講 sorcerages rasa朝 format entscheiden并 gaga robe meríchอ้Recunku jóқét tiế drip k prisonerів Stanley breakfasttu má professional I have a friend of the show who is also trying to get rid of his spot and months ago he emailed Damien. I have the entire email correspondence and he asked for a refund and Damien said to him I think there's someone on the waiting list and if they confirm they want it I will transfer your spot to them and I will give you your $2,000 back. Now that was a few months ago and every week I check in with this Damián R muita Forbes Jean, Bucu Pateñi T fools Adv meaningless podía indicating tang Initi'aaa � Dolly's laat crunchy Barkpa, and it's all about waiting for the wire transfer to come through. Look, wire transfers when you do bank transfers, it only takes usually 48 hours. So hopefully I'm going to keep on this. I'm going to ask my friend if he got his refund yet. This isn't something that should take longer than a week. So we will stay on top of it. And I also talked to the person who had the four preorder spots. I'm like, why do you have four? And believe me, he bought them solely to flip them. And what he bought wasn't for from Haggis. He bought Trans grocery,

14:45

Xianايʺŋžøčk, Priceаявice, Fathomוא� erkennen I think you will see people be able to sell their spots without trouble. I think people will make $1,500, $2,000 on a preorder spot if this company can pull it off. You know, that's all people want to see, right? It's like Deep Root could have pulled it off if they actually made games and people would have been fighting for a Raza spot if there were only like 127 made. But when you see no games being made, there is no way someone's going to take your preorder spot off your hands. So look, it's going to be a very interesting five weeks for Haggis Pinball. The next five weeks for Haggis Pinball will either be a great period for them in which they will show the world they got it done and they're getting game The game is a brutal period for them in which people will be coming after them with pitchforks because they missed another deadline and they promise people games would start shipping in May and this would be really upsetting to people who paid in full that they once again not getting their game Alright, what else is going on in the pinball world? Well, you know, like not a ton of stuff is going on. Let me talk about Deep Root real quick. So it was great talking to Steven and hearing once again from someone who actually worked at Deep Root. Lots of good information. I think you guys loved that interview. And I want to say something and I'm going to trademark this phrase. Pinball is artwork. Artwork is not pinball. And that is the Kaneda phrase of 2022 other than never buy a nonrefundable game again. But I want to restate that pinball is art, but art is not pinball. You know, one thing Steven said when he was talking about Merlin's arcade and showing up at TPS with a booth filled with Merlin's arcade artwork but no game and I'm just over this whole approach like this was Jay pops approach just win them over with art and who cares if you know how to make the game and that is what was happening over at deeproot pinball is all the creatives and all the designers were just tinkering for three years with $61 million of stolen money and they were using that to pretend that They were a pinball company. They were a pinball design studio. They had no idea how to manufacture anything. And that video of Robert trying to shove the playfield back in, the rotisserie playfield that pulls out with the latches, just goes to show you what a fool he was. Nobody, nobody in their right mind who's trying to build a successful pinball company would say that that is a problem we need to solve. and it just goes to show what a jackass Robert Mueller was. He absolutely innovated in all the wrong areas. That thing was stupid. The pinbar was stupid. The pinpod was stupid. The floating backbox is stupid. Every single thing he brought to pinball that he thought was an innovation was actually dumb. And if these innovations were what people wanted in pinball, we would see them from stern pinball, from jersey Jack from other companies out there that are successful. What he did was he created a million more problems than he solved with each of these dumb ideas. The man's a fool. Like he's a fool. He's a bully. He's a coward. I have empathy for a lot of people on this planet, but I don't have empathy for that crook. And so yes, a lot of people joined up with Robert Mueller or Bobby Mueller as I like to say, because they wanted a paycheck. That's all it was all All of these guys needed the money. And even when I hear them now, you know, they try to talk about what they worked on with some pride in this and that. And I'm sure, you know, Steven put all he could into his projects and so did John Norris and so did Barry O. But let's face it, people, none of these games were ever getting made. None of these games were even complete. There wasn't one complete game they ever made. Raza was never even completed. Go watch a stream The game is such a weird experience like you watch it and it feels like there's no real code like there's no magic in the game There's no like all these incredible modes and animations happening. None of it is there It's such a pathetic gameplay experience and then after Raza, there's nothing Nothing else is done. It's so funny that they didn't even have a food truck game C blood thoiince of nieuwe PSYH anche ран atención ngõ Office Diep dat I heard food truck animations crochets binajimas Coloruraiblocks, Klembira, and why is he on that thread seemingly hours a day nonstop hunting for information about Deep Root it's really weird to me too how much he's putting into this whole thing it's kind of scary because it's pointless blueberry Johnson we all know the way this movie ends and I don't care what led to the disaster of Deep Root Pinball anymore like we know what led to the disaster it was a ship where the captain was the biggest Nicky 000, ana

21:38

I don't care that some of these were made by designers that you guys worship. Those games all look like garbage. None of them, none of them look that fun, none of them look that incredible, none of them look anywhere nearly as good as like anything Keith Elwin could do or Eric Minier could do or John Boer can do. Trust me when I say this. If someone was great at pinball design, they would have been at Stern, CGC or JGC. and JP. Those companies absorbed everybody that people really wanted. And what you got at Deep Root was all the leftovers. Now Dennis Norman is like always that exception. Obviously he's very talented. Obviously I think Dennis Norman is an incredible designer but clearly Dennis also needs a paycheck and for some reason, I don't know what it is, but for some reason I don't know why Dennis just couldn't land permanently at one of the more stable companies. I would love for Dennis to tell us why that is the case because he's clearly talented and why does he keep floating around everywhere? Just get somewhere Dennis and be like a stable designer at one of the stable companies. Like that seems to be the goal of any creative in the pinball world, not just the designers, also the artist. You think Franchi is happy? He's just floating around pinball space now looking for an outlet for his creativity? Knapp nyt r identity You need to keep your employer happy right If you get on Gary Sterns badside and he doesn work with you anymore that it If you get on Leonard Abbas badside and you get kicked out of JJP that it right So look if I was in the pinball world as a creative Iwouldwannabey at Stern Pinball That is the one place I wanna be Let go around the horn real quick So speaking of Stern Pinball if you have a rush machine there is a new mod out by the NinjaCampMod people Now these these people they not just making scoop protectors and by the way I love what I saw with them is they saw that someone who had one of their scoop protectors there was a weakness in it and it broke And they said we think it just a defect on that one unit that was printed but we are going to reinforce that area on all moving forward and if you have an issue we will fix it for free Here what I love about these guys is they now made a mod There's like a loop shot in the upper left where you can't really see the inserts well. And so what they made was a really awesome mob that sits right above that area that shows you if the insert is lit for like I think it's one two three and an arrow and I love this mod I love mods that actually serve a purpose versus just gluing tacky stuff all over the game. So if you have a rush, take a look at this mod. I think it's something All right, American Pinball. I heard this rumor over at the pinball show. Thank you, Zach and team that American Pinball is supposedly thinking about releasing more Houdini's and Oktoberfest, but get ready for this. They're going to strip features out because I think their new strategy is they want to make pros and deluxes. And so the old Houdini's and Oktoberfest will be considered deluxe machines. And then they're going to sell pro versions that have Have stuff removed from the game. Another terrible idea by David Fix and American Pinball. I wish Mukesh would just call me and I wouldn't charge my $400 in our fee for smart marketing ideas for them. I would actually sit in a room with them and in two hours I could set American Pinball's strategy in such a better way. This is not a good strategy. First thing they need to do is stop looking backwards at Houdini and Oktoberfest. Stop. Nobody wants to revisit these games. They weren't successful. They're not going to be successful. Stop remaking games in ugly cabinets. Nobody wants that backbox. We need to fix the backbox. Our games don't look pretty enough. Stop. The artwork on Oktoberfest is arguably one of the worst art packages of all time. Just stop with these two games. If I'm sitting down with them, forget the past. The past of this The company was set in motion by John Papadiuk, right? And Mukesh's family members who didn't really know what they were doing. If I'm David Fix, I'm saying to them, look, Dennis Norman's game is the start of the new American pinball. Everything that came before it, including Legends of Valhalla, which wasn't a game we made. We are going to close the book on the past and we are going to make sure that Dennis Norman's game is the coming out party of the new American pinball. There's gonna be a new pinball cabinet, there's gonna be a new American Pinball logo. This is our moment to say welcome to the new American Pinball. But that's not what David Fix is doing. It's like he's shuffling the deck between what's coming and what's old and he's trying to like put it all together in an enticing package and I just think it's a mistake. David, before you got to AP, tons of mistakes happened. Stop making the same mistakes. Just forget about those things. and remember when he said he's gonna make jumps and loops for Hot Wheels? Well where's that? He said that two years ago. How hard would it have been to make a mod where you added a loop-to-loop into that game? They can't even figure that out. I just think there's a lot of talk. There's not much marketing expertise over at American Pinball and I don't expect much from them just because every time they make a move, it's always a real head scratcher. Spooky Pinball, Trouble never stop with these spooky games. The latest one isn't a new one, but more people are realizing this because more people are getting their Halloweens. And I noticed this on Jack Bar's machine when I first played it. The armor on Halloween, the gold flaked armor, there is an issue with it. There is not enough clear coat on the and the armor itself. So when you play the game, the gold turns to black. You actually end up discoloring the armor with the oil from your hands. And it is bad. Like it looks really, really bad. And every single Halloween collector's edition is going to suffer the same fate if you keep your palms and your hands on the lockdown bar and on the side rails, which is where you keep your hands on a pinball machine, streamsость coronavirusNearlyánaka and get it recoded. That sounds like a really long and really laborious problem. Are they going to make new changes to it and then send the old people new lockdown bars and side rails? Not the easiest thing to switch in and out of a machine, but not too hard. The problem is all of this is going to cost them a lot of money. And much like hedge multibar, here we are once again, something that should have been caught at the I don't know guys like this whole like Spooky's a small boutique. They've been doing it for ten years They didn't have this issue with any other game they made and so it just goes to show that a lot of what I'm seeing is the result of I think rushing games out not properly testing them and that's it like there's no other way around it and I think this is gonna be another example of owners are either gonna have to live with it or they're gonna raise a stink and Spooky to make changes. The last bit of news is CGC is starting to get more cactus canyons out. I'm seeing more unboxings which is good still no word on when the LEs are gonna ship and one issue if you have a cactus canyon just look out for this the drop targets are having some issues. We know that CGC re-engineered the drop targets on cactus canyon So who knows right they made the opening smaller where the drop targets are so is that the problem? You may ask yourself when do I pay for my bill turnaround promotional activities? I shipmentой New dei Zu BUTTER republic developer Chico Nix, Animation osteo, Evgenots Grigovny, as I forbid not forö J headed&Sol iemand618 — Thanks for watching outそう weisb. Suppose your efforts to reach the dragon's lair. Lead on adventurer, your quest awaits.