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Episode 127 TribeMember Madness

Poor Man's Pinball Podcast·podcast_episode·analyzed·Sep 26, 2022
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Analysis

claude-haiku-4-5-20251001 · $0.030

TL;DR

Bond pricing surge and market analysis: demand management, Insider Connect value, secondary market shifts.

Summary

Poor Man's Pinball Podcast Episode 127 features Mike Harry Williams (Tribe member #006) discussing Stern's James Bond pinball reveal, pricing strategy, and market dynamics. Key topics include the $700 Premium Edition price increase (to $9,700), the $13,000 Super Limited Edition, failed attempt to purchase James Bond LE within 5 seconds of online release, Insider Connect's impact on secondary market pricing, and predictions about market saturation and future availability. The hosts debate whether price increases reflect genuine supply chain costs or demand management strategy.

Key Claims

  • Stern Pro remained at $69.99, Premium Edition increased $700 to $9,700, Super Limited Edition priced at $13,000

    high confidence · Jon Hay stating official MSRPs released for James Bond

  • James Bond LE units sold out in under 5 seconds during online release

    high confidence · Mike Harry Williams describing his failed purchase attempt with 1GB internet connection

  • Price increase from Godzilla SLE ($11,500) to James Bond SLE ($13,000) represents $1,500 increase

    high confidence · Jon Hay discussing SLE pricing progression

  • Jurassic Park Premium Edition spotted at $8,500 (under MSRP), first time under MSRP in very long time

    medium confidence · Jon Hay citing secondary market observation

  • Raw materials and equipment costs rising 50-75% across multiple industries, affecting pinball manufacturing

    medium confidence · Mike Harry Williams referencing his work experience with mechanical components, valves, PLCs

  • Stern's price increase strategy intentionally aims to 'quell demand' rather than purely cover costs

    medium confidence · Jon Hay speculating on demand management paralleling Disney's park pricing approach

  • Operators are unhappy with Insider Connect because it's one-way data sharing—Stern mines all data but operators receive nothing back

    medium confidence · Jon Hay explaining operator reluctance to adopt IC: 'Stern is getting a whole lot more data from the operators than the operators are getting from Stern'

  • Godzilla Premium Edition likely already surpassed Addams Family in total units sold

    medium confidence · Jon Hay speculating on sales volume comparing Godzilla across all editions to AF legacy numbers

Notable Quotes

  • “I had off on the side i had a clock at the side of my desk five seconds from the time i started the time i was trying to buy this fucker five seconds passed and i couldn't get it what the hell”

    Mike Harry Williams @ mid-episode — Dramatizes the LE scarcity issue—even with optimal preparation and fast internet, customer cannot complete purchase

  • “This is worse than Ticketmaster, and I can't get concert tickets. So it's like I am never buying a fucking new machine again. I am not going to buy it.”

    Mike Harry Williams @ mid-episode — Shows immediate negative sentiment toward Stern distribution system before watching product review

  • “they saw what happened with Godzilla and they had a monster hit on their hands, right? And they were trying to quell that demand a little bit because they can still make just as much profit, if not more, and they're not going to sell as many machines”

    Jon Hay @ mid-episode — Articulates demand management thesis: price increase strategy designed to intentionally reduce sales volume while maintaining margin

  • “Stern is getting a whole lot more data from the operators than the operators are getting from Stern”

    Jon Hay @ mid-episode — Core issue with Insider Connect adoption: asymmetric data value proposition causing operator resistance

  • “I really think we're going to get to a point back to where you can shop around and find a you know new box game call Zach Sharpe and nicole flipping out pinball”

    Jon Hay @ late episode — Prediction of market normalization: expects inventory abundance similar to pre-COVID, enabling consumer choice

  • “I really think that Insider Connect is helping the secondary market because it's keeping those game prices higher because there's additional things you can do beyond the original objectives around in the game”

    Mike Harry Williams @ mid-episode — Attributes sustained secondary market pricing to IC feature depth, opposing common dismissal of IC value

  • “we waited all summer we didn't release a game we still have this huge backlog right we can't keep up so instead of going to 92 or 93 or 94 let's go right to 9700”

Entities

Mike Harry WilliamspersonJon HaypersonDrewpersonTim Dan LeepersonGeorge GomezpersonGary SternpersonKevin O'ConnorpersonZach Sharpeperson

Signals

  • $

    market_signal: Price increases across SLE tier: Godzilla $11,500 → Bond $13,000 (+$1,500); Premium Edition $8,000 → $9,700 (+$700)

    high · Official MSRP announcements cited by hosts; consistent pricing progression pattern

  • ?

    product_strategy: Stern employing demand suppression pricing: deliberately jump to higher price point to reduce order volume rather than incremental increases

    medium · Jon Hay: 'they're trying to quell that demand a little bit because they can still make just as much profit, if not more, and they're not going to sell as many machines'; parallels Disney pricing strategy

  • ?

    supply_chain_signal: Raw materials and component costs rising 50-75% across mechanical/electrical industries, justifying some price increases

    medium · Mike citing work experience with valves, PLCs, mechanical parts experiencing dramatic cost inflation; claims pinball components face similar pressures

  • ?

    collector_signal: Secondary market normalization: Jurassic Park PE spotted at $8,500 (under MSRP); first time under MSRP in 'very long time'; indicates demand softening

    medium · Jon Hay observation of secondary market pricing; correlates with more inventory appearing on markets

  • ~

    sentiment_shift: Mike's sentiment toward Stern shifts from hostile (rejected from LE purchase, 'never buying new') to more favorable after viewing Bond product review

    high · Mike: initial anger about 'Ticketmaster-like' system, later: 'maybe i'm not as mad at Stern as i think i am' after seeing game quality

Transcript

groq_whisper · $0.167

0:00
Ladies and gentlemen, boys and girls, this is the Poor Man's Pinball Podcast, Episode 127. It should come as no surprise, we have another great episode for you today. What do we have on tap? We have a Tribe member, guest host. We're also going to be talking more about Stern's James Bond reveal. We're going to talk about the game. We're going to talk about what we think about it. We're going to talk more about the market. It's always exciting. Talk about what we think is going to happen, what's going on with prices, plus much, much more. Stay tuned, and away we go. All right. Help me. Welcome to the show. Tribe member number. What's your Tribe member number? Number six. Double O six.
0:55
Help me. Welcome to the Poor Man's Pinball Podcast today. Special guest, tribe member number 006, Mike Williams. Hey, Drew. How's it going? Good, man. How are you? I'm doing good. I'm surprised I'm still on my feet, but I'm still good. You're not on your feet. You're sitting down. I can see you.
1:15
Good point. What are you drinking today, Mike? I'm actually going with something a little bit different for me. I have a Canadian whiskey, Caribou Crossing. I'm normally not a Canadian whiskey fan, but this is one of the few Canadians I do like. Nice. What about me? I'm Canadian.
1:35
You're not Canadian. I'm French Canadian. True story. Really? Yeah. Well, I guess with a name like Beauvoir, you wouldn't. Yeah. So two quick stories about Mike Williams, folks. One, this is Mr. Damn it, I'm thirsty, Mike Williams. This is the gentleman that came up to me, what was that, five years ago? Six years ago now? I think six years. Six years ago at MGC, right?

Jon Hay @ mid-episode — Suggests Stern's strategic pricing: skip incremental increases and jump to price-point that meaningfully suppresses demand

  • “Even Tim Dan Lee can be a good pinball player with Insider Connect”

    Jon Hay @ late episode — Running joke about Tim Dan Lee's poor pinball skills, but suggests IC achievement system has democratizing effect

    • Kaneda's Pinball Podcastperson
    Stern Pinballcompany
    James Bondgame
    Godzillagame
    Jurassic Parkgame
    Addams Familygame
    Star Warsgame
    Insider Connectproduct
    Spike 2product
    Corvettegame
    Rushgame
    Guardians of the Galaxygame
    The Mandaloriangame
    Doctor Nogame
    You Only Live Twicegame
    Nicole Flipping Out Pinballperson
  • ?

    machine_intel: James Bond SLE features single-level playfield (no ramps), confirmed via leaked 007 website images

    high · Jon Hay: 'you could see enough of the top of the play field to see it was all single level' from 007 website preview

  • ?

    gameplay_signal: James Bond designed by George Gomez with emphasis on ramp design; Mike confirms seeing four ramps in early images, influenced his purchasing intent

    high · Mike analyzing grainy pictures: 'i saw all the wire forms...i love ramps...grainy pictures showed four ramps'; designer known for high-quality ramp architecture

  • ?

    product_concern: Limited Edition units sold out in under 5 seconds; inventory allocation for LE batch appears extremely constrained (likely ~100 units worldwide)

    high · Mike's attempted purchase with optimized conditions (1GB internet, pre-filled form, exact timing) failed within 5 seconds; hosts estimate allocation ~100 units

  • ?

    operational_signal: Operator adoption of Insider Connect hindered by asymmetric data agreement: Stern collects comprehensive operator/machine data, operators receive no reciprocal data

    medium · Jon Hay: Stern mining 'everything...how many flips, quantity plays, errors on machines, replays'; operators want regional performance data, audience demographics, time-of-day analytics; none provided

  • $

    market_signal: Secondary market fatigue evident: lesser-title inventory available (Star Wars PE, Rush, Mandalorian, Guardians of Galaxy, Led Zeppelin, Cactus Canyon, Guns N Roses)

    medium · Jon Hay citing multiple non-mega-hit titles in stock at distributors; interprets as demand saturation and early indicators of price correction cycle

  • ?

    design_innovation: James Bond Premium Edition features teal powder coating, mirrored back glass, AR anti-reflective glass, underwater-themed aesthetic; Michael aesthetic design update from standard edition

    high · Mike detailed analysis: 'teal on the powder coating...cabinet is gorgeous...underwater scene...all worked with the Premium Edition'; noted materials/labor cost markup 35-40%

  • ?

    product_launch: James Bond production starting November with shipping shortly thereafter; Premium Edition demand expected to ease secondary market after initial player-adoption phase

    medium · Jon Hay: 'they're going to start producing around november and shipping shortly thereafter'; expects secondary market games to flow once players receive units and seek next titles

    • 1:58
    Must have been MGC. No. Was it Expo? It was Expo. Okay. At Expo, Mike Williams comes up behind me. I don't know who he is, and he whispered in my ear, what you drinking?
    2:09
    And we've been friends ever since, and he had shots of booze for me that day, and every time I see this man, he has shots of booze for me. God bless you.
    2:19
    That's what it takes to be a professional drinker, man. You have to have alcohol at the handy. so it is important to note that Mike Williams is a fellow Wisconsinite he lives about an hour from me we're both from Wisconsin we're both in Wisconsin and this is what we do here in Wisconsin we drink and we talk shit about pinball well it's just kind of a qualification when you live in Wisconsin it's you know winter for six months out of the year you gotta drink touche and that's coming up the cold weather has rolled in Ah, yes, don't remind me. No, sure won't. Go ahead. Before the show, I was actually having fun getting ready for the closeout of camping season because we have a seasonal camper a little bit north of here. And it's Halloween weekend, one of the Halloween weekends we do. And one of the things I love about our campground is it's not trick-or-treating for kids. It's trick-or-treating for the family. So you go to a table and the kids get candy. and then at the exact same table there are shots and jello shots and drinks for the adults every freaking campsite it's hard to make it around the campground walking so and so i had to get ready by carrying my jello shots and i was making my jello shots earlier so that's nice i like it well do you uh do you want to talk about bond you're a bond fan aren't you I am a huge Bond fan. I remember watching these growing up. And when this was actually announced, I was like, oh, my God, I got to get this. And I was just so excited. And then the trouble started. So about a week ago, I log into my Insider Connect account, and I see that it expired last month. Okay. It's like, well, shit. That's not going to help me out because I had already talked to the distributors. No one had an LE. This is one of the few titles that I had actually considered getting an LE for. You've never had an LE? I've never had an LE. Now let's backtrack. What did you think you were paying for said LE? somewhere between 11 and 12 okay okay so so yeah so i did that um and i had to start talking to stern tech support so that i could actually pay them money to renew my account because it wouldn't let me do it and i've never had so much trouble giving someone a measly 40 just so i could try and get the chance to get the le pinball because every distributor's already sold out you know They were sold out long before today. So let's back up here just a little bit. What was your thoughts when the first reveal came out last week, the little teaser and a couple of grainy pictures?
    5:13
    With the official Stern review, I was like, okay, Stern's going to do it right. This is going to be an LE I want. and then those pictures came out and I was actually excited about it because I think they did do it right and I'm in the odd situation where I can appreciate every cost is going up because of what I do at work and I was like okay maybe it'll go up somewhat I don't know how much it's gonna go up maybe this is gonna be in my you know affordability spot so I saw those grainy pictures i was like there's enough there to be interesting the aston martin's there there's this spaceship looking thing i'm okay with this there's potential here because i saw all the wire forms because one of the things for me is i love ramps if there's a lot of ramps and the grainy pictures showed four ramps i was like oh okay this is a potential and then from there on when the pictures got better and the leaked pictures of the i don't remember who it was that found the stern site um but you know the the pre-release of the stern pictures and they had found the web address i started looking at those like okay there's potential here because i'm a huge fan of gomez and one of my favorite games of all times is corvette and a lot of people you know may not like that but it's a it's gomez game for me and that kind of describes his style and i really like how that plays he just does things a little bit differently than the other ones and that really appeals to me and some of the best ramps in pinball exactly exactly so it's it looked very appealing so i'm all excited about today and i go in i actually work from home today so that i could have a fast internet connection because at home I'm sitting here with a one gig internet connection and okay this is going to get me in there it's going to be just like Ticketmaster and it's going to be fine so I get there I log in and I'm sitting there and I'm watching the countdown I'm watching the countdown I'm catching up five four three two one go okay I hit it the minute it shows red I click buy okay or add to cart click it and when I got a back up a little bit because I had already in my cart filled out my name my address I had filled out an order I had already put in my credit card information so everything was there okay I click add to cart okay brings up the it loads it brings up the next stream says buy click buy okay checkout click checkout and i am at the point of clicking complete purchase click it and it goes to zero items in cart and then i and as i clicked it there is nothing to buy i was like son of a bitch what the fuck just happened i had off on the side i had a clock at the side of my desk five seconds from the time i started the time i was trying to buy this fucker five seconds passed and i couldn't get it what the hell i i the computer was not responding any faster a one gig internet connection how the hell the people who got these things get them is what i want to know well i mean we have to assume that that allotment was very small right it it had the allotment that stern has well i don't know but honestly it's it's probably less and a hundred, right? Yeah. And it probably actually was a hundred just thinking about it because when they announced that they were going to be having a thousand LEs, I was like, okay, that makes sense. Probably 900 to distributors and other sources and 102 people worldwide. I saw the first one go up on the market. We'll talk about that a little later, but there is officially one on the pin site market already. I saw that and I found another one on Facebook. I went looking before this too to look for it. um okay so you didn't get that now let's dive in a little well first of all what did you think of the art because there was a you know almost every universally people were like this game looks great but right there were a couple hesitations with some of the art packages there were and a friend of mine told me a long time ago you don't play the cabinet you play the field i'm a big proponent of that and when i looked at it the left side of the doctor no cabinet has the bond girls i was like okay that's not bad who doesn't like bond girls i'll be a little bit sexist i know we're trying to i know this is a more inclusive hobby but yeah we can't say pussy galore on here pussy galore is not allowed on the poor man's pinball podcast we just cannot say pussy galore on this podcast make sure that during this whole recording you don't say pussy galore oh octopussy and pussy galore yeah you can't say those words no octopussy no pussy galore make sure you take pussy galore and octopussy from your vocabulary for the purpose of this podcast i cannot talk about pussy galore when talking about the bond girls that is correct okay now that we got that established go ahead okay okay so doctor know bond girls on the side not bad then you look at you only live twice which was the sean connery and the helicopter on the side and i'm like that's a stupid fucking pose and then like everyone else i realized it was directly off a movie poster i was like yeah it was it was literally it was photoshopped right i mean it was a movie poster and they arranged it in such a way From what I've seen, Kevin O'Connor did hand draw everything. It was not Photoshopped. Well, when I say Photoshop, I mean, I... Yes, it was a direct copy. Sure.
    11:24
    But I was looking at that and I was like, that's one of the stupidest poses you could have on the side of a cabinet. It's like, okay, fine. If you put it on the, you know, you position your line up right, you'll never see it. um and then today for the first time you know we got to see the elites and i was like i started looking at it and i was going back and forth with tim lee also earlier uh you know before this whole thing started because tim lee sucks at pinball go ahead tim lee one of the tribe members that we talk about and love dearly but you know just kind of looking at everything and what you got but I'm looking at the powder coating. I'm looking at the mirrored back glass. I'm looking at the AR, the anti-reflective glass, the, God, I'm drawing a blank, the side, the side art, you know, all that, the higher end speakers.
    12:24
    And I start adding up in my head, oh, and it's like, they might not be that far off in terms of what materials cost them now. There's probably a 35 to 40% markup in there over the materials, just based on supplier, but they're probably not that far off. And so I'm like, maybe.
    12:46
    But I looked at that teal on the powder coating. It's like that cabinet is gorgeous. I really like how it all looks. I like the underwater scene. I like the teal with it. It just all worked with the le and i was like okay i want that and then that's what really drove me to try and go for the le earlier today and i was pissed when i didn't get it sorry no i agree with you that le package really really looks good i mean it looks sharp the colors pop um you know i wasn't i'm not a bond fan and i saw dr no and that translate i mean i know you can swap out translates and you know people are going to make their own translates for this game which is fine so i'm over that um but let's you know this episode we're kind of talking about price value we're going to talk about what's going on in the market so um real quickly just so you guys don't know the official msrps have been released um and then we'll come back around and talk about the super limited edition have you had a chance to look at that a little bit mike I did I saw that there were some pictures of the supposed SLE They didn have the play field yet though right You could kind of see it. But they didn't have an official. Okay. Yeah. There's someone saw it on the 007 website. It was just kind of like the standard side view where you can see a bit of the play field, but it's mostly the side art and the cabinet. Exactly. And when looking at it, you could see enough of the top of the play field to see it was all single level.
    14:26
    And I'm kind of looking at it going, really? Okay, well, we'll come right back to that. But just so everyone knows, the Pro, they kept the same at $69.99, which I thought was a good move. The Premium, they actually added $700, which we'll get to that in a second as well. And then the LE comes in at a smooth, real easy to pay for, $13,000. So they went up, what, $1,500 since the last one? That sounds right. How much? Right? Godzilla was probably $11,500. It was $11,500. So you're talking about a $1,500 increase after they already increased it $1,000. Yeah. And then the premium, they went from $8 to $9 to $97. Yeah. Okay. Go ahead. What are your thoughts? The calculation I did in my head is how many games could I put on it? How long could I keep it? Because this was one that was going to go on my visa.
    15:36
    Playing with fire, my friend. I know. What do I have to sell it for? in order to be able to cover the visa interest rate versus keeping and playing and getting that type of longevity out of it. I'm sorry, but remember, this is the Poor Man's Pinball Podcast. We're living proof, my friend, living proof.
    15:56
    Okay, so what do you make of this? I mean, do you think you were talking about supplies and parts and how you kind of do stuff, not in manufacturing, but you're very familiar with it with your job.
    16:12
    Do you think this was just normal course of business, or do you think there's a bit of a cash grab in here?
    16:19
    People are going to hate me for this, but I think this is normal business. I don't think there is cash grab here.
    16:28
    Because of other stuff I see at work that is going up 50% and 75% for raw materials and equipment and infrastructure costs and it's everything from mechanical pieces to valves to plcs that we work with these prices are going up like this and i look at the components in a pinball machine i'm like they're not that different so well sure they're using metal they're using plastic they're using all the circuit boards yeah they're using all that and so there is a aspect of this where they're trying to keep their profit margin at a certain percentage level because you know you can raise your price by a certain dollar amount but you still don't maintain these certain the same profit margin so you have to add a little more so they're trying to keep the same profit margin on their machines which i totally get as a business and it just sucks for all of us then my my takes a slightly different i i don't disagree with what you're saying but let first of all let's not kid ourselves i mean they're making a lot of money we know that and that's fine and they should right yeah um you know gary's toy hobby yeah it's a luxury hobby you know gary's putting a lot of money in his pocket you know he's paying george gomez very well i'm sure you know that's that's all fine and good um but i really think another component of this is they saw what happened with Godzilla and they had a monster hit on their hands, right? And they were, no pun intended.
    18:05
    Dad joke. They're having trouble keeping up with demand. So I really think that they went up a couple hundred extra dollars for the sole reason of trying to quell that demand a little bit. because they can still make just as much profit, if not more, and they're not going to sell as many machines, and they knew that going in. Given the fact they sold out in less than five seconds of whatever the hell they had. Well, the LEs, but I'm saying.
    18:37
    I totally agree. Yeah, because the premiums. I think they left money on the table. Well, they probably did, but I'm not even talking about the LEs. That's kind of a separate conversation. I'm talking specifically about the $700 increase on the premiums, premiums yeah and and they said hey look you know we we sold got we we raised the price almost a thousand dollars on godzilla right and we can't keep up with that demand and our backlog is huge so now we we waited all summer we didn't release a game we still have this huge backlog right we can't keep up so instead of going to 92 or 93 or 9400 let's go right to 9700 and we know that some people are just going to opt out. They're trying to take the Disney approach where they're trying to keep the number of visitors in the parks down by raising the price.
    19:29
    I mean, it'll make it a little bit easier for them. Well, they're overwhelmed, right? I mean, they don't have the parts. They don't have the labor. They don't have, you know, all those different things. So, you know, and once again, I'm with you. I don't fault them at all for this. And people get mad at me all the time for it. But it's smart business. I'm not happy about it either, but here we are. But I also think that if they can quell that demand a little bit, I think that's going to do some great things for the secondary market, which I am excited about. That I am excited about. The thing that I was surprised with this price, what it had an effect on me, after I lost this in such a short time, I was so pissed at Stern because I was like, wait a minute. This is worse than Ticketmaster, and I can't get concert tickets.
    20:22
    So it's like I am never buying a fucking new machine again. I am not going to buy it. And, you know, it was just one of those things that actually turned me off from Stern. And then I sat there and watched the Stern, I think it's the all-access review of the games tonight, where they actually talk through everything about the games. and this was i don't know eight hours later and i'm watching everything and i'm like you know maybe i'm not as mad at stern as i think i am because i'm looking at everything on the premium and i'm like oh man maybe i don't know so we'll see so come time for mgc next year maybe i'll be back in and not mad at stern well but what i'm hoping for is the secondary market people will get these that you know people that are putting their orders in right away because they're going to start producing in november and shipping shortly thereafter and when they get them they'll play them and say okay great what's the next new shiny i mean this is one of those times where i really hope kaneda is right and i don't say that often um but i really hope he's right and that they do a tron vault because I think that would have a lot of sales for next year. Oh, I totally agree. And once again, I think that every great game that comes out from Stern now, we have a better chance of, once again, quelling that demand. And then some of these secondary prices are going to, you know, they're not going to implode, but they're going to settle. And we're starting to see that already. I mean, I've been looking on the market. the first thing I notice is there's a lot more games on the market, right? Yeah. Like, just in general, there's a lot more A titles on the market today than there was, say, three months ago.
    22:20
    And secondarily, those games, I'll use one example. I saw Jurassic Park today premium for, I think it was $8,500.
    22:31
    So that's the first time I've seen under MSRP in a very, very long time. that made me so happy and i feel bad for people who are trying to sell their games i really do oh yeah yeah tim lee's trying to sell his mandalorian premium he's he's not getting what he paid for it i'll tell you that much yeah and i feel bad for people like that but don't feel bad for tim lee oh never not for him actually for people like tim people like him but not him got okay um but we're starting to see a return to the norm where pre-covid this is what you saw i mean you saw games they'd be released the pros and premiums would definitely take a hit on price and then you didn't have to worry about it i mean you could always find a used game le's were always untouchable but but how no no i agree with you but these new price increases because you take a game even like um i'm trying to think oh well deadpool deadpool is a great example no it's still yeah okay let's let's go with like aerosmith right when aerosmith came out what was the MSRP? You know, $5,300 on a... Was that still a $4,999? Yeah, whatever, right? Let's say it was $5,000, $5,100, whatever it was, right? It was the first Spike 2 game with the LCD, and yeah, they said it was $5,500.
    24:09
    And to your point, you know, after a few months, you could get them for $4,500, right? Yeah. But now, the prices of all the spike two games have jumped dramatically so now you know are those games going to be worth six grand 6500 what do you think i mean i know it depends on the popularity of the title and all those different things but in general most most stern used games were the same price right yeah there was there was a couple hundred dollar difference but they were mostly 45 4800 bucks I really think that Insider Connected is having a bigger impact than people think. The Spike 2 games... Stop right there. What do you mean by that?
    24:57
    A lot of people don't want to admit that Insider Connected is helping Stern, or at least people in this area. Okay? At least in my area, they don't want to admit it. but there are enough achievements there's enough other value added content that insider connected is helping the secondary market because it's keeping those game prices higher because there's additional things you can do beyond the original objectives in the game so i really think that's helping more than people kind of admit oh insider connect is is fantastic i mean it is it's it's just fun it is it really is i and i i love playing insider connected games unfortunately there's not enough of them in my area even though we have a huge amount of pinball in the madison area is that because they just aren't buying the kits or just they don't they're not getting the spike two games it's because the operators don't yet agree with stern's philosophy of one-way data sharing the stern is getting a whole lot more data from the operators than the operators are getting from stern oh so it's a it's a principled thing at the moment exactly can you can you dive a little deeper into that what what uh what kind of data is stern mining stern is getting a whole bunch of information i mean pretty much everything right you're getting everything and you're getting everything from time of plays quantia plays conspiracy alert go ahead errors on machines um it's it's literally everything you want to know about the machine sure so someone someone plays it they know how many flips how many this how many that exactly how many times to error how many uh replays all that information the operators they're not getting dick back well that's that's terrible they need some dick for uh octopussy and pussy galore exactly um what well what well let's play devil's advocate here what kind of data do they want the operators want regional numbers for what is working in what types of locations you know what's what's working where who's what type of people are playing you know because you get that with the insider connected who's what's your audience base because that's part of your profile. What time of days, how much money they're spending. So that should be flowing back to the operators And why do you think that not I mean you know that I don think there a good mechanism yet I think Stern will get there I just don think they there yet Oh I was going to say because that doesn sound like that like anything top secret crazy weird It's just.
    28:04
    OK, so I don't know. Once again, why? Well, they're upset because they can't get it, I guess. But OK, fair enough. So I think that's helping keep I think the whole entire connected and achievements. And I don't know if you heard it, but as part of the Bond releases, there are Insider Connected objectives for the Bond games that are tied to that. And so there's going to be extra cool stuff you can do as part of the Insider Connected. Yeah, once again, I think it's a great, great system. I mean, just achievement, just hearing that sound, right? We're like Pavlov's dog. We hear the sound and we're like, oh, this is great, right? You get all excited. I mean, it's just, it's, it's a stupid little achievement. I did this thing, but you feel like you accomplished something. It's, it's really kind of neat. Yeah. It's, it's like social media. Social media is meant to be addictive. Hearing those sounds back. They're addictive. You know, you'll want to hear it. You'll want to hear it. Even Tim Lee can be a good pinball player with Insider Connect. That's great. You sure? I don't know. Maybe if he puts rubber bands on the outline.
    29:14
    Maybe. maybe um okay so you know we touched on a little bit um you know i i love numbers i love you know markets and and different things so what what do you think's coming in the next few months as far as uh well first of all after this is released when do you think distributors will have premium godzillas and or bonds in stock meaning you can call somebody up and say hey i just want one never not never come on seriously i don't think we will ever get back to this state of you can't you want it you get it i i disagree and i'll tell you why because right now you can call a dozen distributors you can get a mandalorian you can get a rush i know i know i'm using okay okay maybe okay let's let's backtrack here no you're right i i did and and we're talking about two drug or not themes right but rush rush just came out right no one wants rush you can get a rush yeah tim lee's got one no and i understand it's not as popular of a title but here's my thought my thought is that the fact that some of these lesser uh desirable titles are in stock now i think it's a tipping point because that means they're making more games they have them right yeah and and by the way it's not just rush it's not just Mandalorian, you can also get, you know, I think Zach has a Guardians of the Galaxy Pro in stock, you know, with that last run. And I think, you know, Led Zeppelin's another, that one was kind of a stinker. I get it. But Cactus Canyon, you can get Cactus Canyon, you can get Guns and Roses, right? So I think these, and they're not stern, I understand that. But I think we're starting to see a point where there's a little fatigue in the market and with these higher prices i really think we're going to get to a point back to where you can shop around and find a you know new in box game call zach and nicole flipping out pinball i really hope because god i would love nothing more than to be able to call uh zach and nicole right without pinball to get whatever game i wanted well sure and and once again where you can call them up and they have they might not have every game in stock right but they might have five or six to choose from you know that that's kind of what i'm talking about i'm saying yeah you're right godzilla premium that that's probably like the outlier right because they've sold do you think godzilla premium might top adam's family i think it probably already has you know what i mean because they don't release their numbers and and 20 000 is a lot of games but if you add all the pros the premiums and then the thousand alleys they they might have made right i mean i bet if you added up all the outstanding orders for it you'd be that's my point i know they're not there yet but they're gonna keep selling it for quite some time because they'd be foolish not to it's a correct oh it's it's it's an amazing game i as you guys know i don't keep games very long that one at this current moment yes i know it's my newest game so it's hard to say but that that one's going to be there longer than all the rest of my games and once again godzilla was not a theme for me so that that says something yeah i can see that because unfortunately godzilla will not be in my collection it's why not because i've taken my kids to play it and they're like whatever oh okay fair enough it's important that everyone in the house you know enjoys it if they're playing pinball that's just it pinball for me is a family activity i mean it's on friday or saturday night if we're home that's what we do together and so it's everyone has to enjoy it and so we go for me is is drinking in my underwear by myself in my basement i love it well that's the other six nights a week for me ah touche okay fair enough fair enough that's me sitting there going through a bottle of bourbon a week you know playing pinball oh that's awesome that's awesome um but yeah so the kids just didn't resonate with it they still want me to buy a jurassic park though so well once again that you know the pros are are back to like a reasonable level like you can get a pro now for you know 6 500 bucks and then uh you know the premiums i said they're a little sometimes a little more but they're still they're reasonable now i think with the coming recession they're going to be coming down even more okay no and i was gonna be my next question so you think like you know maybe let's say next summer like this time next year we're gonna see quite a quite a different market, right? We will. We'll be back to normal.
    34:27
    But you told me we won't. I've already told you we're starting to return to normal for prices. But I mean, the stock and the backlog, when do you think Stern might clear their backlog? Oh, see, I was talking normal on used market prices. Okay. No, no, it's two separate conversations.
    34:46
    Versus the clearing the backlog? if if they keep putting out titles of the quality of godzilla and this bond one looks to be really fun to me they'll never clear the backlog they need a stinker to but they had they had led zeppelin and they still had a backlog led zeppelin occurred during covet times and so that's a that was kind at the start of it i guess yeah yeah that was a completely different situation but even if they have a stinker they still have you know four or five or six other you know really great titles because they haven't called last call like some of them were assuming they're not making anymore but they haven't called last call on them right like like iron maiden or alvira last call on something well this this fall was tmnt that's it okay uh led zeppelin guardians of the galaxy and um crap i think i'm missing one more help me out poor man's pinball gmail.com 414-828-3739 i know we're not live but send me a message and tell me um no there's one more hang on turtles guardians uh led zeppelin i think there was one more Elvira? Well, Elvira, they're kind of up in the air. They haven't actually said they're making them again. Okay. There's supposed to be one more run, I think, in November, but they kind of kept screwing around with it, pushing it back. And then Zach kind of released on his show that he thinks that, you know, the bomb on that's obviously a little higher. It's more labor-intensive to make, that kind of thing. So they might be steering away from that for the time being. i think they're going to have a manufacturing issue with bond also i think it's going to be a little bit harder to make i it would not surprise me just just the complexity or just the complexity and i was looking at that playfield window on the premium and le and how that moves back and forth when you hit the target and i'm only guessing on what that mechanism does i don't know if those scuba divers are just spring-loaded or if they're actually reactive well my thought was it's kind of like the creature right yeah because you yeah so if you guys don't know a creature the black lagoon on the left side there's a is that a spring how do they do that one so yeah anyways that the left the far left shot there's a creature under the play field no that's a hologram that's completely different oh that's not a figure no that's a hologram okay i was a little confused there yeah i i always thought that that was a figure under there and it's a moving lamp and mirror in a hologram okay so the lamp just kind of turns on and then the lamp comes on it hits the mirror the mirror actually is on a motor that sweeps through i think it's like a 60 degree arc and it moves back and forth and that what gives you the impression of the creature moving well holy hell why didn't they just do that with bond i actually thought about that right like no no because when i first heard about it that was my assumption because i didn't know how that worked obviously on creature and i was like oh it's probably the same you know it's not even close okay so so bond they're using physical bond i figures and that's what i'm curious about i because when you were watching the video and it hit that lower target in the thunderball i'll call it the thunderball scene um and you saw the guys bounce back and forth i don't know if that is just a spring-loaded mechanism reacting to the ball hitting the target or if there's actually something moving them back and forth you think the easiest method would just be have like on a real loose spring right that that would be the easiest way because you know when you hit it you're going to see the movement it doesn't have to be perfect you're going to be like oh that's kind of cool right well and if you bring the spring back to the buck or the the kicker for the ball because the the ball hits there and then it kicks back to the middle of the play field if you have that spring there and you have it attached to the people that'll give them move back and forth and i think that's probably how george did it okay but that's still complexity from an assembling standpoint oh no absolutely um but you're saying like what's going on underneath really has nothing to do with what's going on top of the play field so to speak because it's just a target that you're hitting it's just actually um but then i look at that they call it the gantry uh for the tower going up and how that mechanism works and you go around to the back right and you got the ramp coming down that's another uh it looks like there's an up kicker there that kicks the ball up to the wire form coming down i think the complexity on this is going to increase the cost well I mean they're you know once again they it seems to me that you know we'll do a quick little stern are you listening here because I got a couple I wanted to add from last week and Mike I'd like your take on that too but it seems to me like with stern adding these additional purchase price they they are seemingly putting more in these games right oh definitely if you look at the last three or four or five games even you know even mandalorian i would say i mean there's definitely more mandalorian than there's been in a lot of other pro games in the past you know a couple of years even so um you know i guess as long as they're using their money for good so to speak instead of evil it's uh it's not part of specter yes yes yes see there's the joke so yeah I'm happy to see that but yeah we'll transition here this episode of the poor man's pinball podcast and all the other great content we have on the poor man's pinball network is brought to you by flipping out pinball if you're looking for new pinball machines call Zach and Nicole you're looking for new accessories for those pinball machines call Zach and Nicole you're looking for those toppers call Zach he is the topper king they got all kinds of great things they got shaker motors all the other accessories you could hope to want and have for your pinball machines. They got Raw Thrills arcades, all kinds of great things. They got Golden Tee. The list is too numerous to continue on here. But just go to Flippin Out Pinball call Zach and Nicole get your games today We are also brought to you by pinballprices Check out Doc Finlay brand new redesigned site He is spending all kinds of time and energy trying to get that site for the place to be, the place to go to, to find out what your pinball machine is worth. He logs thousands and thousands of game sales all the time. Check it out. He just updated the site. He just updated, I think it was a couple thousand sales, literally. So go to pinballprices.com, click the donate button, buy Doc Finlay a beer. Quickly to Stern, are you listening? There was one, I was playing Mandalorian today, actually, and every single time this happens, I just ask myself, why, Stern? Why, why, why? So Stern, are you listening? every time there is a crash or an explosion or something of that nature on the lcd screen and you don't use the shaker motor you have failed me definitely okay because so i'll give you the example okay and every time i think about it and every time it bothers me so stern this won't cost you any money okay you just need to turn the shaker motor on at this part of the lcd I know they can do that. It won't cost you anything, okay? Here, you can send me a free Translight or a banner for this idea, okay, George? Are you listening?
    43:17
    So when you do the encounters on Mandalorian, are you familiar with Mandalorian, Mike? Very. Okay. So when you do the encounters and then you get to the third level and then they show him, they stage the ball, right? And then they show him shooting the plane out of the sky, right? There's no shaker motor. it bothers the shit out of me he shoots his big ass rocket he bends over the big ass rocket comes out of his his pack it it blows up the the ship in the sky and there's no shaker motor see this kills me kills me every time to my mando experience is on location here in madison okay and they don't have shakers and they don't have shakers which is another problem because the price we pay for these fucking machines thank you i did that last yes last episode i railed on that because i'm with you like i said maybe not the pro but if you're not putting a shaker in the premium don't even get me started mike yeah but if you're with you if you're gonna spend 120 dollars on the shaker which i did i want the explosion in the sky to shake my machine please get this done stern and then they use okay i'm gonna jump back a couple machines to star wars yep it comes on at the stupidest time oh it's it's on all the time it just doesn't shut off when i can sit there and play a game and tilt because of the stupid freaking shaker being on all the time. That's a problem. And there's one more. And this one, you guys tried. So Stern, are you listening? Keith Elwin, are you listening? Keith, I know you can get this done, okay? When you increase your destruction jackpot multiplier,
    45:12
    Godzilla throws the monster through the building, right? There is a tiny rumble. It is like, it just goes and I'm like a monster just fell on a building and destroyed the building and you give me this tiny little shake it's probably what my wife feels like when we're in bed together that would be my guess it's just the tiniest little and I'm like really stern are you listening make that fucker shake okay you have the ability the shaker motors are pretty powerful I felt shit you know you know who does a good job with it hats off to JJP oh yeah when uh when you start that um crap that mode and uh Guns and Roses after uh Appetite and you're fighting the robots yeah yeah before it starts that that shaker motor just goes off and it goes off for like five or ten seconds and just keeps going anytime I'm feeling a drum kick I better be feeling that shaker motor yeah right it's all because it's kind of like it's the reason you put a subwoofer on your game right because you feel that you hear the music but you also want to feel it right you got the subwoofer so so stern the shaker motor see mike williams agrees shaker motors but do you do you have do you have another one that was my big gripe for this week but what if stern's listening what would you have them do for their games for their code for their prices just anything stern are you listening mike williams is about to go off see that's just it i'm 100 with you on the shakers because they are used at the wrong sticking with the shakers stern get it done unfortunately because that's my single biggest gripe no it's it's a big one i've been railing on that for a while because every time i bought like a premium game you know i i went out oh hold on go ahead um i want better sound integration on a location i want to be able to walk up to a pinball machine and use my bluetooth headset and get the full sound of the machine thank you i also meant last did you listen anymore mike i do i know i'm just giving you shit of course i know you do call me an asshole my own show i fucking love it asshole um no you're right i It's the same thing. You know, JJP is charging all this money, but they have Bluetooth built into their LEs. It would be super simple. For everyone that walks up with the Insiders connected and they scan their barcode, you should be able to pull up a personal profile saying this person has their Bluetooth headset and it automatically pairs it. Oh, I like that. Because even at home, that would be helpful. Exactly. Hey, I'm in. I got my headphones. I'm putting them on. And then it would automatically switch between different players. Because if you have a four-player game going at home and you have four people on Insider Connected, it'll automatically switch between profiles. That's what you need. George Gomez, Mike Williams, and Drew Bovair have never run a pinball company. But we have drank a lot of booze and we have talked about this a lot. So we know a little bit about what we're talking about sometimes. are you listening oh yeah i want to and i want my players because the number of people to play in my tournaments that have headphones is a lot oh that that makes sense and i'm sure you're not alone exactly if they could hear the machine call outs that would be a better player experience no you're right because the the one thing that's lost at most locations is the sound right yeah because you know unless you go to a bar in the middle of the day which uh i've done it but unless you go to the bar in the middle of the day or somewhere like that i mean most of the time you just and even if it is the middle of the day it might be turned down or it just you know so yeah there's so many things it misses on location for that that goes back to these insider connected and this person has this set of earphones or airpods or whatever and they're bluetooth connected and the profile is automatically imported no that's that's a fantastic idea um no i'm i'm i'm not giving up on this so this the stern are you listening this is this is becoming a regular bit because there's there's always stuff i'm like you know just these are things that i think they can improve and like you said the player experience the customer experience i really think they can they can do better and once again we we deserve a little better and We're spending a lot of money on these things. Okay. Go ahead. In the Stern seminar today, it's the first time I've heard this new vision from Stern. And I'm going to read you the Stern vision statement. Ooh, poor man's exclusive. To create compelling entertainment that inspires a lifetime love of games, sparks passion, forges friendships, and connects people everywhere through fun, innovative, technologically advanced pinball games and experiences. That vision speaks exactly to what we're talking about. They need to get this crap done. If they believe in that vision, they need to work on improving the user experience.
    50:49
    Yeah, and I'm sure they're going to do some of this, right? Because this whole Insider Connect, you know, I mean, obviously it's not going anywhere. It's only going to grow.
    51:01
    But to our points, I mean, I know, you know, implementing some stuff can be, like, very complicated. You need a lot of testing. You need different things. But some of these things, like Bluetooth, that should just be a given, right? Yeah. I mean, so, you know, that's just my opinion. I mean, when your refrigerator has Bluetooth and your pinball machine doesn't, you know, that's a problem.
    51:25
    Just for the record with that vision statement, I have been in meetings all week and I have been using so much fast typing skills. I can't believe I got that whole damn thing.
    51:38
    So you got that because you're part of Stern Army, right? Yes. So that's okay. So you guys don't know. Mike runs a lot of tournaments in Madison and he's part of the Stern Army. So he's privy to a lot of stuff that us civilians are not. So we like having Mike on so he can give us these tasty little nugs, nuggets of information. So, yeah, like I say, that was a lot of fast typing.
    52:06
    Good stuff, man. Should we wrap this up, buddy? I think so. All right. I don't even know how long we've been going. Well, 52 minutes. I mean, we were talking for a few minutes in the beginning. So, you know, I'll pare down some of it. But, yeah, we should have a good 45-minute episode here. And once again, Mike Williams, my guest, tribe member number 006.
    52:28
    Yeah, Glenn's got the best one for this, right? He does. That asshole. Glenn is 007. Is he even a Bond fan? I don't know. I haven't talked to him. Glenn Wechter, are you a Bond fan? Let me know.
    52:40
    So, once again, this was episode 126. Thank you, Mike Williams, for being the guest. We really appreciate every time you come on. We love you being part of the tribe. I love you as a pinball brother. And we will talk to you guys next episode. Have a good day.
    53:15
    Thanks for watching! you Thank you. you