Warning! The following contains adult language and screaming goat fuckers. Listener discretion is advised. Pinball is a game of skill. For some, it's a passion and a lifestyle. Now these two losers, here's your fucking show. It's like a head-to-head episode just with an annoying guest each time who wants to try and make us laugh. But we don't have to invite him to this one. It's just me and you. No, and we don't really have to pretend to be anything. So, yeah, we're just going to talk shit. We're going to talk about 2021, which was just a very interesting year. I was thinking about it, and 2021 is just 2020 with just inflated prices. Like, it's the same year in pinball, just a little bit more expensive. Well, in pinball, I think overall 2021 is like 2020 with more fatigue and less positive expectations of the future. Because in 2020, we were thinking it won't get worse. 2021 will be a better year. We'll be out of lockdown. We'll be out of this COVID nonsense. And it'll be a great year. And it just wasn't. It was shit. And now we're looking at 2022 going... It's probably going to be worse or the same, so brace your arseholes. Just don't think it might be better. I mean, you might be presently surprised. Yeah. Prices might only go up 25% this year. Do you think the bubble's going to burst? Stop it. I love that conversation. It's such a good conversation. Yeah. I don't know. There's a lot of new people in the hobby money. There's a lot of new people in the RB, and it's actually really nice to see these people. Yes, they're driving the price of stuff up, but that's just what everyone has... Everyone wants... wanted pinball to be a bigger thing. Are there still news articles being written about pinball that say, like, oh my gosh, pinball is still around, it's still a thing? I kind of relied on This Week in Pinball in that miscellaneous section where it'd be like, pinball in the news um but now i don't look for it but i'm guessing it's still in the news is it is that it will ever not be the conversation that like pinball is still a thing like yeah i i still see whenever pinball is in i won't say like the the press like paper or online but more so when there are uh pinball on like a morning breakfast show which is generally where they seem to appear and the hosts of the show are completely taking the piss they they just look at you as a nerd or someone that's just completely lost in time with this thing of lights that is completely irrelevant to today's society that's that's the vibe i get from these people yeah and they're not wrong at all yeah we we are yeah we're we is we're we we bunch um and it's i mean it's unlike any other hobby um i met someone recently marty who is into hula hooping and i was i was trying to draw comparisons between um her hobby um and and pinball and there is a lot of crossover and the main reason she's into it is the community and and okay yeah it's like same and she's like oh my god but it's so expensive i'm like ah really like there's like elite hula hoops that cost a lot of money so god yeah like this one costs like 55 and i'm just sitting there like oh my fucking god like 55 i wish something anything in pinball cost 55 a friend of mine i say a friend of mine a friend of mine that i don't really see anymore but we were really really close friends i got into pinball and got you know it wasn't like the competition bug but it was more the community bug that i got from pinball and she got into live action shooting now do you know what that is is it just shooting people what's the live action so it is pretend shooting so basically you get like real guns but you dress up as cowboys or cowgirls and you give yourself names and you go to these farms and you you don't reenact things so it's not like a reenactment of i don't know what they do with reenactments but you you actually are dressed up and you give yourself this funny name and you talk to each other in their name and you go and shoot targets but the reason i'm picking that up is that when i tell people that story they go oh my god that's fucking weird yeah so is pinball like the fact that we've got this and so she found the community i found pinball and we then just sort of parted ways. But there's a lot of these subcultures out there. And I think that if we continue to look at it through the lens of all these other people looking at us, then we're always going to feel a little bit strange. Just embrace it. We are who we are. Just go with it. It's enjoyable. Yeah, it's weird though, because it's like almost, you know, as a pinball person, And you feel like it can almost break a little bit more mainstream if there was just like more money or something. Like, not more money. But like, for example, we had the Victorian pinball state champs yesterday. And someone like took an Uber to the venue, which was my house. And the guy was just like, ah, you know, like, ah, state championships. Like, what's the prize money? And it was like, I don't know, like 150 bucks or something. Like, it's not this thing. but you know like if maybe if he said five thousand dollars then that taxi driver would have mentioned to somebody else like oh my gosh it's like five thousand dollars but when it's it's so low and the stakes are kind of just like just mates and friends well come on don't forget it's 150 and a very attractive belt you hate the belt i fucking hate it i hate it i voted against it i thought it was copying somebody else it's hideous to look at but But, you know, whatever. I don't do tournaments anymore, so it doesn't matter. Apparently, you were about to get into tournaments or something, Marty. Like, you were... Oh, my God. You mentioned on a podcast that someone quoted you last night. I know. But not following through. Thank you, Hayley. No, it's just like, oh, you... I didn't say I would do tournaments. I said, I feel like I could do tournaments. The problem is they start whilst I'm working, and they go really late and I start work really early. So I just, I just, just don't think it's going to happen. So when we were starting the podcast, Marty, and we were like bright eyed and talking to all these people that work for Stern and JJP and whoever, and we would quiz them about like, oh my gosh, Zach Sharp, I've heard that you like don't really play pinball in your spare time. Like what? What the fuck? like why wouldn't you play pinball all day long like you like pinball um and then i guess as as i mean as like personally as i've progressed through the hobby i can definitely see kind of the fatigue and you only play in certain kind of conditions and um but you you work for a pinball company and your life definitely revolves more around pinball than it ever has before so what's your what's your feeling when you come home and you see your star trek or your wizard of oz sitting there are you like oh my gosh i can't wait to to go home and play pinball or well first of all they haven't been turned on for two months either of them power issues money also they're in a room that i don't see i literally come home have dinner and then go to bed so i don't i don't actually get i look at that room and i think what a waste of a beautiful room because I just don't get to use it. Although today, and if I'm really honest, just for you friendly listener, I said to Ryan, oh, can we do the podcast tomorrow night? And he's like, oh, no, I've managed to clear it out today, so we need to do it tonight. And I went, yeah, okay. Because my kids were going to come over, but they didn't. But the real reason was I was playing a game on my PlayStation and I just felt that I just wanted to sit on the couch and not move and play this game. Sorry, Marnie, that we're doing an episode and you're not doing that. I don't mind at all. I came to terms with it. We're now recording. But that's, I guess, what it is. This is what I was saying last night about, because we obviously have talked to a lot of people that go and work for people companies and you see them less in tournaments and in the scene. And what I said last night and I'll say to everybody is I'm still just as passionate about pinball, but I play pinball more than I ever play pinball. I game test. I tune every single game that goes out of Haggis. So I play a lot of pinball. And so when I get home, it's not like, oh, I'm sick of pinball. It's like, you know what? I've had my pinball fill. I've actually played pinball I don't need to play anymore Are you like really good at Kelts now Marnie? Oh my god yes Like seriously Someone asked me though I can't remember Someone asked me what's my highest score I might have been winning Stacey Borg What's my highest score on Kelts And I said 9 billion But I found a scoring bug Do you And the glass was off as well Are you so confident Like if you You know how Josh Sharpe always says well, if you play 100 games against Keith Elwin, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. Do you think if you played from scratch, you walked into a room, Keith Elwin's never played Celts before, and you click start, do you think it would end up at least 51-49 in your favor on Celts? I would wipe the fucking floor with him on Celts. Like after the first 10 games, he would learn something, and no, you think you're the best person in the world at that pinball machine? Right now, I probably am, although people have got them in their collection, so they're probably getting better than me. But I don't think there is a person in the world that has played that game more than me. Nice. So, and I don't get sick of it. I really don't get sick of it. I mean, I... But even if you did, you wouldn't say it because... No, but I honestly don't. I generally... I had this big conversation again with Stacey Ball because he does game testing. game testing can ruin your passion for the hobby because you're not playing it for fun you're playing it to break it you're playing it to find all the bugs uh so i a lot of that is what i do a lot of it i play to um i do you know leaf adjustments and switch adjustments and all that kind of stuff just to make sure everything is feeling fantastic because you remember i'm all about how a pinball feels. But I then, when I'm just, I usually give it about half an hour to an hour of just play. I'm playing for fun and I choose many different things that I'm doing for fun. And sometimes I get there, sometimes I don't. Cool. You're ranked, I'm just looking at your IFBA profile. I don't. I haven't looked at it well. The last tournament you played was the Victorian State Championships of... January 2020. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So it's been a while, Marty. It has. Yeah, point well made. Full stop. What can we do to have Martin Robbins arrive at a pinball tournament? Do we run it at the Haggis Pinball Factory? We could probably do that. We have talked about doing that, and it may happen when we get a second to do something different. I don't know. I still like talking about tournaments. I still watch tournaments. I still watch a lot of pinball on Twitch. I just, I mean, the big thing, obviously, I haven't done the Melbourne Silver Bowl Championship for two years. That's a bit of a killer because I love, love putting that on. So, you know, hopefully 2022, I mean, without the backing of a big expo or festival, or whatever you want to call it, it's very hard to do a big-scale tournament with the collections, I guess, that we've got. Especially even if there's not... We used to run things at the Golden Fleece and there were, say, 11 machines there and then you can augment that. But then when that goes, you can't augment every single place where there's been more machines that might not have space. Yeah, and it's hard. I tried to find somewhere to run the Victorian Pinball Championships that wasn't my place. I didn't want to have it at my house. But there really wasn't anything. You can't run it at Moondog. They don't want people there on a Saturday taking up that space. It's basically got to be someone's house. Yep. Yep. So anyway, we can... Yeah, whatever. It was an effort to try and build it up. I'm guessing at one point there will be like a Melbourne pinball collective. Someone will do it. It's just going to require a lot of effort. Yeah, it's not – I've said this about collectives, that you've got to have – well, I think there's five people minimum that all want the same thing, and the odds of that happening are quite challenging. Yeah. When we started chatting about it, the conversation was just like, well, we're not going to have like a swipe card thing. someone has to be there at all times and but we'll just do it in shifts and i'm like i i have two jobs i have a social life i i can't have another responsibility in my life i want to set and forget kind of not set and forget i could not requires effort but i i can't add another thing to my list of things to do at the moment yeah yeah that's exactly right all five people but you know what you may find four people that go yeah we're okay with that there you go you've got your collective because they all understand each other and it comes together. But that kind of stuff just... And I've seen some venues come up and people just not see eye to eye and that's the hard part, really. So, anyway. What else are we going to talk about? I'll just look through my massive list of notes that I've been compiling this entire year, Marty. Have there been any unsung heroes, do you think, in Pinball? just off the top of my head. I walked up to Marty yesterday. I'm like, we're at like a big Christmas party. There's a guy, Hashman, he runs a Twitch channel called Shit Pimble, and it's called Shit Pimble because he's shit at Pimble. He's just horrible at Pimble. And on a good day when he's sober, but he's pretty much never sober when he's playing Pimble. So go and subscribe to him if you want. He also streams on Melbourne Silverball, Marty. Yeah, he does. Yep. So he employs like two people And he has a Christmas party every year But the Christmas party has like How many people were there yesterday Marty? 60 Yeah So it's pretty funny Because it's not a Christmas party It's like a work function Christmas party Is it? Yeah that's what it's always been I always thought it was just his Christmas party at his house I didn't realise it was a work thing Who has a Christmas party a week before Christmas? Like it Anyway Yeah Lots of people have Christmas parties but what a week before christmas yeah i don't know maybe i don't have enough friends this is the only one i'm invited to anyway i'll get to marty and i'm like what are we talking about tomorrow he's like well what do you got and i'm like i've i've thinking about a person who's kind of like the unsung hero of of you know of the hobby who not a hero but someone that just doesn't get enough praise. So think about your version of that. So do you have someone, Marty, or do you want me to just... I do. I think there's somebody that has done an extraordinary amount for pinball but doesn't seek the limelight. Even though they stream, they're not an attention seeker. It's all about giving to the community. And that's... My guess... Yeah, go. Yeah, you already said it. It's Carlos. Carl D'Python Anghelo. Oh, Carl D'Python Anghelo. Who did you think? Carlos? Yeah, Carlos. No, Carl D'Python Anghelo, because obviously he puts on big tournament, but he streams, he does tutorials. Anyone that has messaged him to help them with streaming to get a better quality stream, he helps. He does so much and just does not seek any accolades for it. He's a very humble guy. I saw a post on Facebook today when he put a high score in Godzilla. Did you see that? No. So if you put Carl's initials, which I think is K-E-D, in Godzilla as a high score, Godzilla will talk crap to you and say something like, OK, OK, Carl, you're good at pinball, or something to that effect. I'm going. Spoiler alert, just in case. Spoiler alert. Well, just in case your name is also Carl something E. Correct. I thought you were going to say that Carlos guy, because I saw when people were talking about the Twippies and who's the best streamer, someone was like, it should be Carlos, because if you look at the average amount of hours he streams, it was something crazy. I'm probably messing up the numbers, but it was close to three hours a day on average that he streams Pimple, which is just absolute bonkers. Yeah, it's nuts. He does seven, eight hours, sometimes 12-hour streams just because that's what he does. Does he drink water while he does this or energy drinks? I don't know. Maybe. I don't know. How does he fuel? Anyway, my person is Joe Cherovino because I think he's just like a big, positive dude dude who just, I don't know, he's always cheerleading stuff and he's got his pinball degenerates page. And I don't know, he chats to me all the time about stuff. I think he's just like a positive guy who, do you know what I mean? Like, you know how there's like, you know, are you okay day? Like, send your mates a thing and let them know how they're going. I feel like Joe Cherovino is are you okaying everyone every single day. Yeah, so I just wanted to point him out because I think, you know, he doesn't get enough attention. And we get good photos from him as well. He's always taking photos of all the big events. He's a good guy. I see a lot of content from him. His face is all over Facebook, that I'll tell you. So you're saying he does get enough attention, Matty? I think that he... No, he does, but I don't think he gets enough recognition is what you're saying. Recognition, yeah. Yeah, that's probably the one I'm talking about. Yeah. That's all I've got. That's my entire show notes, Marty. Should we wrap it up? So thanks, everybody. Have a great Christmas. But let's talk about the machines that came out in 2021. And it may be a non-event because we're still waiting for our Godzillas. You know? I've got an LE, Marty, and I wrote an email saying, hey, is it arriving on time like you guys said before Christmas? Like, yes, it is, but you're not going to get it before Christmas. We're not sending them out. And that was it. I was like, okay, Merry Christmas, motherfuckers. I think they just couldn't probably send them all out. So none of them get sent out before they come back in January. Well, we are one week away from Christmas. So have they actually already arrived in the country? I don't know. I mean, I don't know. I'm sure someone leaves, like, two minutes from the factory and will get their alley and be able to unbox it, but they'll be, like, under gag orders. Like, everyone's going to not be opening their Godzilla before Christmas except you, so you can't tell anyone. Maybe that's going on, or maybe they've not seen it to anyone. It doesn't really matter. I waited so long for Mandalorian. You know, I've got Fathom on the way. I'm more patient now than I used to be. Okay. All right. um you you also in the past have bought machines and then sold them yes any any of that happening in 2021 as well oh did i sell any machines or buy machines um did i sell any machines i don't think i sold any machines this entire year um i sold one of my meteors because i bought a really nice Meteor, but that might have been last year. It's very hard with timelines this year, but I bought Mandalorian. I've got a Mandalorian Pro and an LE. I do like the LE, but I also don't think that I'm getting so much out of it that I won't sell it in the next couple of months after I get Godzilla. I think it will hold my attention more than Mandalorian. Not that I think there's anything wrong with Mandalorian. He said just codes. That is very exciting. And yeah, I don't know. Well, we were talking about it last night. I did also mention this on Final Round. Please go and check out that podcast. I played Mandalorian for the first time a couple of weeks ago and I played one ball and then walked away. I just kind of went, oh, yeah, okay. It's a game. It does what it needs to do. It's fine. Sure. I've come to realize I was like, at my, like, I've really only got one location now in Melbourne where I site pinball machines, and most of the machines are Dwight Sullivan machines, and I really wouldn't have it any other way. Like, besides the tournaments that I run there, he is the best person, I think, in the industry that can code exciting pinball machines that get people excited. You used to rubbish him continually. For? His code. Yeah. But now I'm making money from citing him. Like, that's a different segment. No, it's all about the dollars, bitches. I'm talking about tournaments. Like, tournaments, I don't think Dwight practices, I'm not sure if he understands, I'm not sure if he practices score balancing as much as someone like Keith Elwin, whose life has revolved around tournaments. but that doesn't matter to someone who's putting two dollars in and playing a game of pinball they just want excitement and Dwight is very very very good at exciting people so that's that's his superpower and I've come to terms with it that it's it's probably never going to change like with the community is not changing Dwight Sullivan into creating tournament games for them like it's as much as regardless of what you say it's not going to happen Dwight's I wake up one day and listen to a podcast and I'm like, you know what? You guys are right. I'm changing my personality and my style for these groups of people. Have you noticed any difference in Dwight games from the 90s to now? It's just a bigger, crazier version of those games. I still see a lot of variety in his games, but also, don't forget, when he came out to Australia and we caught up with him in Melbourne, he welcomed me. We sat down outside and he listened to me tell him for a half an hour what's wrong with Munsters and what he should do to fix it. And he was taking notes and he was like, yeah, that's cool, that's cool, I like that. So I think he actually, I think he does take on a lot of feedback and he does take on a lot of influences, but ultimately he's making a very complicated rule set and I think that guides him down a certain path. I think that if he tried to go too crazy with a different complete framework of rules, I don't know whether he'd be able to rein it in or whether he'd be able to deliver it in time. It's not about that. I think it's just about... I don't think risk-reward is the right word. It's just the reward for things that you do. And one example which I've mentioned a couple of times to people and I haven't installed the latest, latest, latest version of Star Wars because there's one that came out a week after the last. But if you play Jurassic Park, Marty, and you hit one skill shot, it's worth a certain amount, and it gives you a bit of a perk. And then you hit another skill shot, and then you hit the third, and then you hit the fourth, and it's kind of escalating. You're doing better, I'm giving you more points. And it's actually worth a decent amount. The first skill shot's like two and a half million. I haven't played Jurassic Park in so long besides yesterday during the state champs, which knocked me out of the comp. Very rusty on it. But I know it's decent. I know it's worth going for. On Mandalorian, there's a number of skill shots, a decent amount. I'm pretty sure the hardest one is holding the left flipper, plunging all the way around, and then you hit a certain shot that it wants you to hit, Marty, and then it's got another shot that it wants you to hit, and then, I think, a third. I'm not sure if it goes further than that, but there's three shots you have to hit in a row. It's not like Jurassic Park, where if you miss, that's it. There a tiny bit of a grace period but it still stringing three shots together If you get all three shots Marty and as I said I not sure if this is a change two and a half million like what the fuck That's not worth my time. I know. Everything else on the BIMO machine is worth so much more. It's great. I have skill, and I'm not rewarded for it. It doesn't feel like a skill shot. It feels like you're a fucking idiot for going for those three shots shot. Well, that's why I think it was, Keith, probably with Iron Maiden, was really the first time where you really did care about that skill shot because it extended your ball save. Yeah. That was a good reason to do it. I don't care about the points. It's, oh, my God. It's like when I bang on and on about big points, right? If you yell out to me big points, give me fucking big points, that are a large percentage of the overall score that you're likely to attain. But if you just give me measly points and call out big points, then that's going to piss me off. So again, with a skill shot, if you make a skill shot really tough, then with a lot of risk. So another one is that the, I think it is, I don't know if it's called a secret skill shot, but on Stranger Things, you can do the skill shot into the targets. Yeah, fine, whatever. Or you can do a short plunge into the scoop on the left. I think it gives you good stuff. I think it gives you good points. It's worth doing, but it is still very risky. But if you're going to lay out this incredibly risky shot for me to do a skill shot, then I'm not going to bother with it unless the reward is exceptional. Yeah, it's funny to kind of see patterns in between coders about what a skill shot gives you. Because sometimes it's just points, sometimes it's points plus progression into whatever you are doing. Like, usually if you hit that shot, you'll get one progression, one more into that mode. or whatever that shot does. But if you do it on a super skill shot, like orbiting all the way around and risking your ball, it's worth two or whatever it is. And I think Medieval Madness started doing this. Attack from Mars will complete the entire lane. It's been going on for a while, but not all code has, I guess, C value in it. Mandalorian, what do you think, Marty? Give it a score out of ten bananas. I would give it a six. but I haven't played it enough do you want me to give you a score on Led Zeppelin? never seen it no I haven't it's on location Marty at Moondog World 32 Chifley Drive Preston Led Zeppelin is mind-blowingly boring I wish I wouldn't say that because it's a Steve Ritchie game and what do you say when you play a Steve Ritchie game oh my god it shoots so well it's so nice to shoot it's just it's not a high energy game maybe the premium and the alleys more exciting maybe it's one of those games where when you really understand the rules and the Icarus and the multiplier it's really fun to cash it out blah blah blah only nerds get excited by that kind of stuff yeah I mean I've never seen a group of people because we all played it at a comp or we've done it twice now and everyone was playing it for the first time and everyone was so excited and I don't think I heard anyone I wasn't asking people opinions you just hear them talking I don't think anyone was like oh my gosh what an amazing game it was like this game plays too long and it's boring like what after waiting so long people just should be a little bit more excited about it but hey he's not at Stern anymore so let's see what he does at JGP I'm very confused as to what Steve Ritchie, because he's had so many excuses, like, oh, license restrictions, and I guess the market isn't where it was for Black Knight. I don't know. Do you think Steve Ritchie, I'm not sure if you can comment on this because you work for a pinball company now. Oh, that ship has sailed. If I can comment on everything, I shouldn't. I do. The next day I go to Damien, hey, this is what I said. Are you okay with it? Cool, I'll leave it in. Thanks. Marty, if you go to Texas Pinball Festival or some kind of festival, are you now going as like a Haggis Pinball representative? Do you have to sit behind a counter all day and talk to people about the quality of Haggis playfields and get out a hammer and like, hey, do you want to fucking smack this? I don't know. I really don't know. I hope so. I would love to. We've just got to be able to get over there, I think, is the first step. Yeah, probably. Okay. Cool. But your question was about Steve Ritchie going to Jersey Jack. Here's what I think. Here's what I think, everybody. For years, for I can't tell you how many years, I have only ever, ever liked one designer, and that is Steve Ritchie. That doesn't mean I've hated the others. This isn't, you know, here we'll mighty kill. This is, he's the only person that I've kind of followed in pinball just because I loved his games. They were Steve Ritchie games, and then there were all these other designers. So for me, he was pinball royalty. He was, I'm using was, he was a god for me. And that has changed. And I remember the first time, it was probably about two years ago, someone said, oh, who's your favourite designer? And normally before then, it would always be Steve Ritchie. Just rolls off the tongue, Steve Ritchie. And I kind of had to go, hmm, who is my favourite designer? What game was that after? Was that after The Black Knight? or um star wars it was after the star wars premium they had a war play field money oh god that was terrible i think it was then and then black knight then led zeppelin i kind of went oh okay he's kind of the magic is gone the magic is gone is what i'm saying right and i think the magic is gone because his ability to be crazy Steve has gone. So what I'm hoping is that by him going to Jersey Jack, they know what they're getting. They know what they're getting with Steve Ritchie and they're like, you know what? You just be the best fucking Steve you can be. But what is the best Steve? Like, you know, a left and right orbit that you can backhand and a left and right ramp and a loopy loop shot. Yeah, it's all of that with good art and good rules. Steve Ritchie doesn't have good art money. Well, I mean, besides... That's what I'm just saying. So that's what he'll do. They'll give him good art. Yeah. I don't know. And if you think about his games, which one of them has had good art? Let's just talk Stern days. ah like i think people say black knight is probably the the best yep but it it already had a really good canvas to work with what do you mean by that meaning like a really good art palette that you can draw from like you could just go okay we know what black knight looks like let's just use that and be crazy again yeah so i don't think you could fuck it up is what i'm saying besides that the other ones are all i mean no no oh no fears um belly williams days but um no they're all they're all bad um you might be able to say uh spider-man comic book version maybe uh is is okay but they're all like star trek is horrible but you just like the game so much you just don't care after a while acdc acdc's art is kind of okay it's the inserts that are a little bit odd for me and i talk about star trek and yes i probably got rose colored glasses because i do love my star trek so much but here's the thing here's the thing about stevie g games it's not about the art it's about the flow and the call outs the the raw the the visceral feeling that you get from shooting this ball around. And because they are fast, flowy games, you don't want busy art in the way so you lose track of the ball. That's what I believe. So when I look at Star Trek, that's when I look at Star Trek, I go, if I looked at that art individually, it's pretty basic, but it's absolutely fine. How many times have you lost track of the ball playing? Ghostbusters I have, I can tell you that. Really? When it first came out, Like Deadpool? Yes. Really? Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. You are, your senses are just getting overloaded because there's so much to see. You do get used to it, but when you go up to these machines, it's like, fuck, what am I looking at? What am I shooting for? It's all just a bit of overload. So I'm not saying that I'm giving him a pass, because it's actually not his choice to put art on his games. but what I'm saying is Star Trek was okay it was fine if you look at the artwork individually it's pretty basic but overall the package works because you've got all the great LEDs and everything's flashing in it and it's great Game of Thrones now take the premium out because they kind of did touch it up a little bit I would love to know how quickly they got that over the line because the outrage I remember was huge and I feel like it was like a week's worth maybe of effort. I would love it to be that. I would love them to be like, hey, Photoshop dude, like fucking... Photoshop dude. Do a bit of like, you know, blue stuff and make it look like a little bit of icy. It's like, well, what do you mean? And he'll do like a first pass, like that's it, print it. Yep. Let's do it. It's probably not how it happened, but I would love if that's how it happened. Well, yeah, but I'm just saying that That still wasn't earth-shattering as far as art goes. But now... There's like 50 gears in the play for that. I know, but when I look at a Game of Thrones, it is one of my all-time favourite Stern games ever. Ever. Period. And I do like really good art. I really do. But I'm not fussed if it's just okay. I'm fussed if it's terrible but it wasn't terrible art it was just okay and also what we're seeing a pattern here is that he gets the big big licenses where everybody just has massive expectations of what it's going to be and it doesn't meet it and the gap is just too big from what people expect it to be to what actually happened so I think that's what happened but again Game of Thrones is a phenomenal game even with the art it's a phenomenal game for me top 10 game of all time easy no what do you you don't like it ah i do i just ah is it the call outs because that's the thing that bugs you is call outs when they go no it's not it's not the call outs i think it's just it's missing like i don't know it's like the i i don't know i can't i can't quantify it i just i like the game a lot i like how it shoots are like whaling on the target for super jackpots. I just think it's missing some kind of X factor that the last 5% of the pinball machine that propels it into Lord of the Rings or some kind of category that... For me, it's over Lord of the Rings. And I think the reason for it is that I feel I've got more choice in what I'm doing. More choice in choosing a strategy? Yes, choosing different strategies, playing it completely different depending on which house that you pick. I mean, you've played it way more than I have. Yeah, you know, because we went halves in it. And so I had it for about six months and I played it to death and didn't get sick of it. Fuck, that was a cheap pinball machine. What did we get it for, like five and a half or something? I think it was more than that, but it came with a topper. Which, I mean, I was kind of laughing selling the topper for half a grand back then and now it's as well. Oh my god. That topper is worth as much as the pinball machine, so I'm an idiot. Correct. So there you go. So you've got that. Then you've got Black Knight, which I was in on an LE. I was just like, fucking Black Knight, Black Knight 2000, two of my all-time favourite games. How can you fuck this up? Putting that for play food on there. Oh my beer! Here we go. So putting a really, really average upper play field and the pro, I was playing it when we streamed a couple of weeks ago. The pros are really interesting proposition. It's got one ramp, one ramp, just one. And each of the shots are big, long alleys. That's all they are. Big, long alleys. Alley? What do you mean by alley? Like a big, long shot. So it's a fan layout with shot next to each other, and the shots start halfway down the playfield and end at the top. You know, there's not a lot of sideways action happening on the second half of the playfield. They are just big, long shots. And I kind of looked at it and went, this shouldn't work. But for some reason, I really enjoyed it. And again, I'm getting back to my, oh, it's my Steve Ritchie. Is he really my man? Is he? I don't know. Do I want to do him? I don't know. Do you, money? If he does what I hope he'll do, which is absolutely freaking blow us away with what he's going to do at Jersey Jack, then he may be back at number one. Right now, he'll have to wedge himself in between someone else. It's the meat in the sandwich, isn't it? Fuck, what other pinball... I'm trying to think of what other pinball machines came out in 2021, Marty. I mean, there's Halloween, Legends of Valhalla. We haven't played any of them. Halloween, I mean, have you watched much streams of that, Marty? I've hardly watched anything. but i've yes yeah i have it's fine it's fine it's fine i what i could what i couldn't follow i couldn't follow the rules it is a it's funny so it's really surely the irony has not passed you the guy that for years has gone oh you know i just don't care about rules and rules i'm actually doing rules down surely yes but i mean the rules the rules dictate so much marty like if the rules don't just dictate the rules the rules also oh sorry no the code the code dictates the rules and the light show and the way it makes you feel um yeah i guess yeah those are the rules are you so you're not doing like when you write rules do you also do the choreography of of what happens around that or just yeah yep yep yeah that's more than just the rules i guess yeah it is i i do i mean look the the fact is myself and greg silby who is the the coder he's obviously more than just that we work really closely together so i will come up with an idea and then he'll say oh i can do this and i'll say maybe the the light choreography can look like this this is the kind of call out so i do all the script for the call out um i go into the studio with a voice talent and record them as well, making sure that they give us the energy that I want. Like Alice Cooper? Is that the kind of energy that you're getting out of these people? Yeah, yeah, yeah, it is. But it really is. It's Greg and I that are really sort of tag-teaming on it, but I sometimes do trump him by going, hey, this is what I want, so let's do with it. but he then just puts in these phenomenal light shows himself and he will come up with, he does a lot of the score balancing, things like that. So for me, what I'm trying to do is give somebody an enjoyable experience through progressing through the game. So for me, it's really important about the pacing of a game, when something's going to reward you with a great score or when something's going to reward you with a multiball, how easy or how hard it is to start a multiball or how hard it is to start a mode, how stackable it is. For me, it's just I want people to feel something at every moment, but not all at once. Marty, when we, I guess, were on the other end, sorry, I'm still on the other end, but when you were on the other end and we were chatting about these, new pinball machines that came out and like you'd be pretty sure that the people releasing certain pinball machines like they they couldn't they always talk about stuff like oh we couldn't talk about it for two years and one day nda and then you know even like our pinball friends and we're so excited and then it's amazing because now we get to show them um and you know like eight times out of ten it's like oh my gosh pat on the back you're amazing but every once in a while someone release a pinball machine and and you'd think how the fuck did you really like how do you think this is a good idea this is this is a horrible idea like did anyone not tap you on the shoulder and say like hey this is not good so how do you ensure or put barriers and checkpoints in place that like what you're actually designing isn't something that you're so close to it for so long that you can't you can't the fresh eye aspect to it doesn't exist you can't walk up to a pinball machine that you play two hours a day or whatever it is and be like i'm gonna try and approach this like a a new person you know a new machine um because you can't because you don't have a fucking many black flasher to erase your memory so you're coming in with certain biases and and whatever so what how do you do it but yes and yes and no i'm i'm not trying to go into it with my own biases i'm going into it with all the feedback that i've heard from everybody everybody like you know i speak to a lot of people through streaming and every game that i play everybody's chiming in saying what they like and what they don't like so it really is a combination of all of that it's the conversations that you and i've had it's the conversation with jeff it's conversations with all the oh i shouldn't laugh but it's all the conversations i've had with all the designers and developers over the years before they knew i was working at haggis if you go back you're a spy marty you're a fucking spy it's not always a spy but if you go back I'm asking these leading and loaded questions because I genuinely want to know from the greats what makes great code what makes a great rule set what makes a great experience for people so I do have some things that I like but I also have a collection of all the comments that people have said about what they like and what they don't like and I try to incorporate that That's an interesting comment, because I guess there's like, we asked that question, yeah, I mean, when we first started head-to-head, it was like one of the first, I guess the most interesting question, and the one that I found the most interesting was like Keith P. Johnson's one, who was just like, I like pinball, and I will make rulesets that, I mean, I'm paraphrasing, I'll make pinball rulesets that I like, I hope you like them too. do you know what I mean? like you've got to trust me that I'm you know I don't like this outlandish crazy kind of thing that people can't connect to because he has a very similar interest in other people but it's kind of interesting to hear you say that because you're I guess removing yourself from the equation to a certain degree but still it's got to have some kind of I haven't got a game out I haven't got a game out there yet so I can't afford an ego at this stage You could be the worst pinball designer of all time. Oh, my God. You could be the best. We don't know yet. It's going to be either one of those. It'll be nothing in the middle. I'll either be the worst or I'll be the best. I could be the new Keith Elwin. But what I will say, I was sort of leading into, it would be really interesting, and I'll say Keith P. Johnson and I'll say Keith Elwin, the hashtag Keith. Remember we used to battle them out against each other? Anyway, fun times. The gin's kicking in, by the way. I'm just going to grab some more. what do you think about john papadook money quick oh my god oh that was funny that time um what i'm gonna say you're right though he what i was gonna say you're right he was a cunt but i don't think you said that no i called him a fuckwit okay true um i couldn't say that now no but back back then i did um now all i'm saying with hashtag Keith is when you're Keith P. Johnson and you've written some of the best fucking rules, who is anybody else to tell you what you should do with your next set of rules? Keith Elwin. Who's going to tell Keith Elwin, hey, I've got some ideas to improve your games. Who would be that? You would. I wouldn't. I feel like some people Zach from the Slam Tilt podcast just said some shit about Keith Alwyn's role. I remember when everyone was just like, talking about how great Iron Maiden was, and the power features, like, well, even if you don't get a shot that's lit, it's still leading towards something. And Zach was the only person in the whole podcast community who was just like, wow, congratulations. Like, you know, you're progressing towards the thing that you don't care about. It was just really funny. But, yeah, you're right. You're right. I mean, Keith Elwin is considered the best at a lot of things in the hobby. But it's not until he fucks shit up that it matters. He's the best at fresh airing people. Still a bit of money. Has he officially apologized to you for not giving you eye contact at Indisc? No. No, he gave me eye contact, but Ben just walked straight past me. Ah, so it was worse. He looked at you and he was like, who's this idiot from Australia who wants my signature? I'm not going to acknowledge him because I have to talk to him and I don't want to talk to him. Look, I bring it up because in his defense, if I was Keith Elwin and this fuckwit from Australia just comes up and goes, Keith Elwin, you know, I would be walking straight past as well. I'm telling you now. We had a segment on one of the Final Round podcasts that I did with you guys this year, and we were talking about Keith Elwin procreating, and I was talking about Keith Elwin's nuts, and it was funny in the moment, and then I kind of, you know, ended the podcast and hung up, and I'm just like, man, this is awkward. I'm just going to message Keith and apologize in advance. and then Jeff cut the entire thing and then I'm... Keith Alwyn never knew what I was apologizing for. So if you're listening, Keith, I was talking about your testicles. No, you weren't. No? No, you were talking that his juice tastes good. I did not say that. I did not say that, Marty. Did I say that? I thought I was just saying I wanted to procreate. I did not. What the fuck, Marty? I need the footage because surely I did not say that I'm not that loose fuck maybe I did alright well it probably tastes good I'm not saying I'm not saying you said it I'm saying it was said I feel that there was agreement on the topic is what I'm saying I feel like now I remember why that was the reason why it wasn't in there That is a valid reason. Now we know why it's cut? Is that what you're saying? Yeah. Okay. Well, let's see if that just ends up in the headset. Do you know what? I've just typed in jizz into my Messenger search. 14 matches come up in our conversation. In our conversation? Just in our conversation thread over the years, 14 times the word jizz is mentioned. How many times is see you next Tuesday in there? Okay. All right. Just sending you a Facebook Messenger post. Feel free to read it out. I've never bought Alks online or Alcoholla online. Always in person. Hashtag lockdown. And then Marty says, I've had the one with creamy soda. It's awesome. Fuck, Marty. Am I reading this out, am I? And then I wrote, hopefully it tastes as good as Keith Elwin's creamy jizz. I don't remember writing this. And then you said, that's pretty tasty. That in August this year All right Yep Isn that weird Like Keith Elwin just like going about his day doing whatever he does and there a bunch of people on the other side of the word world talking about what his jizz tastes like and he's not even really that famous like do you think anyone does that for you or me marty like is that what you're i expect them to is that what is that what you're aspiring to in your um yeah pinball hobby people just go man i wonder only reason it's like damien's like hey we really want you to come on board with uh with haggis i'm like as long as i can uh have my dream of somebody talking about my jizz being i'm in oh god um all right uh so i'm just proving that that's actually what was said okay and now we understand why jeff cut it yep and and you will cut it as well not a chance this is fucking head-to-head christmas episode nothing gets cut all right um uh okay we did hello we did halloween we did mando we didn't do ultraman ultraman i yeah ultraman do you think ultraman was just you know like what let's let's reenact the conversation of what that would have been like I'll be Charlie oh man Jodie Dankbird just walked in and stole Godzilla off me and I really like Godzilla and I fucking stupidly mentioned on the podcast and they knew and they're trying to like one up us and now we don't have Godzilla what are we gonna do son you be bug oh okay okay cool hi dad um he's not that young now Marty's a bit older. He's balls and drops, surely. We can't talk about balls. Has his jizz arrived, Marty? Has it happened to you, balls and drops? Are we going to rate it? Is this a rate my jizz dot com? No! Slash geocities? I don't know. Is he over 18, Marty, at least? I hope so. Let me Google it. How old is... What's his name? What's his... I don't know. Colin Emery. Bug is not a real word. It is a real name. How old is Cohen Emery? How do you spell the last name? E-M-E-R-Y, probably. He's not famous enough to be capable. Anyway. There's no wiki on him. Anyway, so what he would say is, Dad, look, it's a really bad thing that we didn't get Godzilla because I know you've already invested a million dollars in this license and we have to now just throw that money away and possibly shut down the business. Thanks, Don. However, if you can think about maybe we can do something that's kind of go through, you know, your VHS collection of which you've got a whole wing in this house. go through and pick what is the cheesiest possible theme we could do and he'd go I don't need to look, it's Ultraman but I would fucking go an Ultraman over Halloween any day oh so would I I don't like scary movies I've tried And that's not like I was scared as a kid and I never came back to it. I was scared as a kid. I fucking watched Chucky way too early in my life. I watched The Exorcist when I was seven. How? I don't think people, like, my kid came home the other day, Marty, and was just like, and this is, like, recently. So Squid Games has been out for a while, and I already told her. She was like, one kid watched it at school. I'm like, oh, my gosh, what a degenerate fuck. um and and but now um she's like hey three of my friends like my close friends have watched squid games and like congratulations you're not watching it because oh i know it literally will like there's certain movies like everyone has a story that you're you're not ready to see as a kid and it fucks you up in some way or another for the rest of your life um and for me it was chucky um okay i went over to someone's house uh around christmas time i was like hey do you want to watch a movie and i'm like i cool like you're not a lion king and he's like no let's watch chucky i'm like what's it about it's like it's about a doll i'm like oh yeah i'll watch that and i fucking had nightmares i couldn't brush my teeth at night i was so afraid of life after that movie for a very long time yeah i'm again copy place copy replace with the exorcist for me i couldn't sleep for days yeah but but i tell you the one thing that actually the movie that did turn me off and and watching it now i mean i was really young i would have been 11 at the time no what's this what's it called um don't mind me everybody whilst i'm googling i'm googling how old's uh Corwin (Bug) Emery i was 12 i was 12 i was 12 when the movie creep show came out and i watched this movie probably about two years ago and i thought to myself what this is not even remotely scary and i i just remember being in the theater i watched it on my own right no one i knew wanted to go and see it with me so i watched it on my own and i just remember being so scared i was 12 I was just, like, just, I was petrified. I was so fucking beside myself that that was the movie that actually ruined horrors for me. Yeah, some kids are able to, like, process stuff way, way better. I just know that my 10-year-old, she doesn't. Like, all that stuff heavily affects her. She's very visual. She thinks about things a lot. But I'm going to wait the longest time possible for her to be able to watch stuff like Squid Games. Did you end up watching it, Marty? Yeah, we've talked about it. It was phenomenal. Absolutely loved it. Yeah. Loved it. I know a lot of people are saying, oh, really, should they do a second season? And my thoughts are yes. By the way, spoiler alert, everybody. If you haven't watched Squid Game and you want to watch it, don't listen to what I'm about to say. if you haven't watched Squid Game and you're never going to watch it, keep listening. We're going to, you know, talk about it. But basically, everyone's like, well, they kind of wrapped it up. How could you do a second season? And my thoughts are this. If they managed to make a series where there was probably about eight or nine, I think, maybe eight or nine main characters with really rich storylines in such a short series, surely they could do it again and now that main character he comes back and he's now the secondary plot line like the detective was in the first one your thoughts ryan my thoughts are that people sometimes don't realize that the reason they like the show is is the characters and they're like i like squid games because they play games and then people die um and that's what people think about more they think like well he he knows the game and how it's structured now and they've been running it for how many years a couple of times a year when he found all those those books with all the winners and whatnot yep um so yes they'll have like this thing where they're uncovering the main story but the the excitement i think was like not knowing what the game was gonna be which is i guess the yeah yeah i guess that's gonna be the same thing wasn't that wasn't that you were thinking like what the fuck is this next torturous game gonna be oh yeah that that's why i couldn't stop watching because i'm just like i it the games are so basic but like my heart was beating out of the chest even though i was just like he is the main character he's probably not gonna die but i'm still but in modern tv shows main characters die all the time i haven't i don't watch that much tv but i feel like besides game of thrones uh like most most tv shows keep the main character like What? Don't go spoiling 20 TV shows. Yeah, I won't. I'll take your word for it. I won't. All I'm going to say is, I will never, ever be able to play marbles again. I am not afraid to say, I'm a guy, right? And, you know, we can talk about mental health, right? Because there are a lot of people that have got mental issues, right? And we shy away from it. People don't talk about it. But I'm just going to say, I'm a man and I cry and I'm okay with that and I cried my fucking eyes out watching Squid Game absolutely bald and I was there with my partner and I was like I can't look to my left because they'll see me crying is it the entire Marvel episode? because I fucking cried too did you? fucking pansy I'm also a man Marty um are you though that is i cried as soon as the guy was like you know pick pick a pick a friend i'll pick pick a partner and he was like haha motherfuckers like you're playing against this person i started crying then because i was just like motherfuckers there is still like like 35 minutes to go and i know it's gonna be like basically people saying goodbye to their their friends it the bit that had me like i was i was i was you know there was tears and every once in a while i'd have to you know just you know subtly sort of wipe the eye like oh i just got an itchy eye sorry but it was the two girls the two girls yeah that that oh my god i i was a wreck I was literally like shaking. Snot was coming down my face. What was that horror movie with the snot down the face? You know what I'm talking about. The Blair Witch Project. It was that kind of snot down the face. I was crying that much. And that's, oh, fuck. We were talking about this last night. I'm just loving. I'm loving TV and movies at the moment. I just think we are going through a massive renaissance of fantastic TV, fantastic series for all genres. They're just making really good content right now. Because movies kind of suck at the moment. Yeah, yep. You won't say dead, but I mean, because it'll still happen for a while. It's kind of like newspapers. Newspapers are still around, but like people don't really get the information from there you know it makes sense that movies that are released on the big screen yes they make a lot of money in that but that model is so kind of gone now and COVID I guess propelled that forward so it's more obvious now it's kind of annoying like well I can go watch a movie in the thing or I can watch it in my surround sound system that I spent an arm and a leg on Well, as you know, because apparently I'm rich, that in my house that I moved into, I've got a home theatre with a big projector. I feel, and I say that because I'm lucky, the woman that lived here in this house before, she was downsizing. So she left a lot of stuff behind, like the projector, like the surround sound, the hi-fi gear, and a fucking piano that I didn't want because that just takes the space of two pinball machines. So I just lucked in that she was going to leave all this behind So I just remember watching Dune The last Dune movie And it just finished And I had it so loud And I just went Fuck I'm glad I moved Fuck I feel good having this theatre I don't need to go to the cinema anymore And I certainly don't enjoy Going to a cinema with the general public Where they're just all fucking coughing and on the phone and there's lolly wrappers and oh my god accidentally coughing these days i know this is just like a boring covid conversation it's just it's so annoying if you cough and it's not covered and then you can feel people around you hating you and it it happened last night while i was getting a lift home uh with our friend stew uh and his lovely wife and i was in the back seat with jess and she she was just like can i have some water and there was no water and she started coughing and it's just like every cough you can like feel like the whole the whole car tense up like is my christmas now ruined because of this uh anyway maybe maybe next year will be the same but um marty you have you have tattoos we haven't even gone through 2021 well what's what's left um Legends of Valhalla Legends of Valhalla I think Legends of Valhalla was last year was it yeah I don't know I'm just looking at IPDB maybe it was you know what it was I think the pro came out last year and limited edition so really if you count this then so I mean Godzilla Mandalorian Halloween and Legends of Valhalla. And Ultraman. And Celts. And Ultraman. And Celts. Oh, Celts! What do you think of Celts, Marty? What do I think of Celts? What do the people from Pinsonati think of Celts? Oh, yeah, bitches! Apparently it's the greatest thing of all time in Pinsonati. Well, do you know what? We were really... We were shocked because it was going up against some big hitters, but people that play the game love it. It's a good game, people. fuck me i yeah and then i when i saw that facebook post i was like huh like and then i it was the realization i've never played a production calts i played a closer production calts but still had like ah there's like three things on here that aren't the final thing so like don't judge it on these three things i'm like okay but if someone tells me that it isn't the final version i can't like i'm just like okay well this is fun and this works and that works but i don't want to judge it until I play the final version. So I then went on a... I was just like, is this an amazing game? And I went on Pinside and then I looked at all the feedback from Pinsanati. There's a Pinsanati thread. And all these people were like, oh my gosh, I played Cal's and it was amazing. Oh my gosh, I played Cal's and it was amazing. Like, huh. Like, they fixed these five things. You know, like the ball... Not my only thing, but when the ball would kind of stay at the top a little bit long and you could just hold the flipper there and it wouldn't be able to kind of get out. But that was like a year and a half ago before you shit the final version. And then, yeah, I actually can't wait to see... I know I could probably ask you nicely and come and play it because I'm like half an hour from the factory. But I'm excited to see the straight down the middle videos on cows. Yeah, same. And see what it plays because... Actually, I don't want to go to the Haggis Factory. I don't want to know how pinball machines are made. I know that sounds really, really horrible. I know. You and I talked about this last night. Yeah, I just want to play them. I don't want to walk into a factory and be like, oh, man, this is really hard. And I feel sorry for you guys. I just want to unbox a pinball machine. He's like, wow, this fathom is amazing. Thanks, guys. Yeah, it is hard work. And the conversation, listener, that I had with Ryan last night was, you know, people say that making pinball is hard. And we kind of go, making pinball is hard. What a joke. It's hilarious. It's fucking hard. And the challenges that come your way, you can predict. You can try and have all this risk mitigation and all this and predict what's going to happen. But because there are so many moving parts in a pinball machine and there are so many different suppliers and they've all got different standards and all different consistencies, the challenges that come just come from left field and there's lots of them. So it's challenging and we're busting our gut to get all the games out. We've actually got them ready to go. So you know what? It is a small business. we are a manufacturing company that's what we do but we're delivering good product so shit on us all you like this is what we're doing we're people that are passionate about making pinball we're doing it for a reason most of us are doing it because we're supporting our families you know what i mean like so just think about the people and what we're doing we're doing it because we give a shit. We want a quality product and we're not going to release something until it's a quality product. And that's, as you saw, the feedback that we get from Kelts is, oh my God, this is possibly the best quality made machine ever. And that's because we just want that to be the standard. And so we're not going to rush things out because we do want it to be such a good product. There you go. I've said it. The end. Yeah. I was going to say more about it, but I think, yeah, I think you said it well, Marty. I said, I'm in a weird position where I know you and I know people who work there. And I mean, you guys aren't inviting me over, but I feel like if I ask nicely enough, I could be like, hey, can I come and, you know, check out the factory and come for a tour or something? You might say yes, but I genuinely and honestly don't want to because I want to have an objective opinion on things, regardless of the fact that you're my friend and whatever. I don't want to be in a position where I'm like, oh man, I actually think that this game is shit and I can't say it because you let me into the circle of truth or whatever it is. I know as much about Haggis as everyone else knows about Haggis. Do you know what? You do you. literally do yourself. I'm sort of getting at it. But, you know, you choose the path that you want to choose. I mean, you are always more than welcome. You've just got to give us notice. Thanks, James. Because if you rock up, I probably can't let you in. But, you know, if you give us some notice, we'll let you come in. But if you don't want to, don't do it. I mean, like, how is Fathom Firmware complete like if when it comes out i'm guessing there's going to be some some feedback and stuff like that if i if i message you like hey marty hey how you going my name is ryan um what do you think about like this story just thought i might have been back again god that was i mean this episode's a bit weird but surely that was the that was the low light of the episode is fucking... Anyway. Are you going to be like, oh, thanks, Ryan, for your feedback. Fuck off. Or are you going to be like, oh, okay, yeah, well... Obviously, that depends on what the feedback is. I'm just... Nobody knows anything about this... I mean, we've got that first sizzle reel, but it's kind of exciting. What is Fathom Revisited? What? We don't know. I know, the mystery. Click here and you can find out. Yeah, look. No, look, I honestly don't know what kind of developer or designer I'm going to be. Whether I'm going to be a person that's like, fuck off, I'm fucking awesome. Or whether I'm going to be the complete opposite, which is, I'm so fucking insecure, please tell me how do I fix this. I think it'll be somewhere in the middle, obviously. But here's the thing about, oh my god. hold on a second let me get a little bit more drunk i'm sitting here so fucking sober but last night was a little bit last night complete opposite yeah complete opposite and you're like i need to drive home see you later guys like i'm gonna stay here and get very very drunk yep um all i'm saying is that i i don't have a game out yet so i i'm in no position to be anybody at this stage but i i think with um with feather marie's visited and with other stuff that i'm working on as well and this is what you're going to understand about coding is why i've got such a great appreciation for dwight sullivan and all the coders out there i say dwight sullivan because obviously i had a conversation with him and i think he's a fucking awesome guy but writing rules coding rules it's just not fucking easy people it's not like you know you can just go oh i've got a great idea and let's just do this there is so much that goes into just having an idea and then implementing that idea and then once it's all down there you've got to completely rebalance it you've got to see okay that was a great idea in my head and on paper but is it actually delivering the experience to the person that is what you wanted to get because that's when i when i look at my code i get you know how i love spreadsheets right so it's all in spreadsheets but i have a column that says what feeling do i want to give the player right and if i don't get that feeling then i have to redo it what can you give me like a couple just one example besides excited that you want someone to feel okay so there is a particular i can't i can't be i don't know how vague i can be i hope damien doesn't kill me for saying this but sorry damien i'm fucking way too drunk now so can you imagine saying that to gary stern like don't employ you like sorry guys i'm fucking loaded at the moment i'm gonna give away some company secrets no i'm not going to give away any company secrets that's do you know what this is i've got to say this is one of the hardest things about now working for a pinball company is i talk to people about pinball and people want to know about haggis and i can't tell them about haggis it's it's actually quite an interesting conundrum anyway there are certain things that you do in the game and some of them need to be really fast-paced okay look i will give you an example because we've talked about this before, but in the game, you are battling the mermaidens. Mermaidens. Mermaidens. Mermaidens. M apostrophe maidens. I don't know. They're mermaidens, right? Is there a call out that goes, ha, ha, ha, merman, ha, ha, ha, yes. I'm just going to use that sound bite right now. Yes, there will be. In your Super Ellie one of one Ryan edition, that's going to have that call out. But, so those particular modes, you've got to battle the mermaid. And if you're successful, you've then got to escape the cave. And there's a couple of different ways that you can escape. And you've got to feel fucking anxiety when you're escaping the cave. If you don't feel anxiety, then we've not done it right. But you know what it's like. You know, what were we talking about? Kill the witch. I think it was Kill the Witch where... Oh, I might even... No, it was Destroy the Ring. When was the last time your ring got destroyed, Marty? Oh my gosh. I'm just remembering the fucking conversation last night. Oh my gosh. You're waiting for me. Okay. Last night, I see Marty. I haven't seen you in a couple of months, I don't think. the first thing we start talking about you know just a fist bump is a prolapsed asshole oh god who are we Marnie Aussies I'm starting to realise the older I am that Aussies we just fucked like we just as a race I as I said a pretty impatient person fucking killed me that Rick and Morty took that long to come. Mandalorian, kind of like, oh, it's so close to Godzilla now, I don't really care about it that much. But Fathom's an old game. Like, I will wait. Like, I... There are so many of my old games that don't work, but I kind of don't care because they've existed for so long. It's like, when they're ready, they're ready. And even though Fathom is a new game, I still see it as an old game. So I'm in the least amount of rush for this. and I'm not saying that so you can push me to the back of the fucking queue Marty please don't do that but yeah I'm way more patient for Fathom because it's fucking Fathom if someone said hey Ryan that fucking Dragon Fist that you want or Quicksilver that you really want for a long time because I've wanted a Fathom for a while I'll have it ready in two years give me a grand I'll be like cool because it's an all game anyway are we done with this year in review have we reviewed it properly Marty this is the worst I think we have absolutely reviewed it appropriately not necessarily properly but appropriately yeah tattoos Marty pinball tattoos yes or just tattoos in general yeah I had virgin skin for a very long time I've now got got ink in there my my six year old still thinks it's a drawing and tries to to rub it off she's very disappointed but last night we were kind of talking about pinball tattoos because I not coming as some kind of pinball as some tattoo expert definitely not but you know I thought about it for a while and I like well you really I feel like I have to get something that means something to me in the way that I not going to look at it in five years time and be like oh what the fuck And someone has corrected me and said like, well, it doesn't matter if it meant something to you at the time that you did it. And that's part of the journey of your life that makes up you as a human being. Blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. but pinball is obviously like a been a big portion of my life big enough and it's not gonna go away and if it does go away then it's still worthy enough for a tattoo but then i'm like well it should be really easy for me to figure out like what tattoo that i want that represents people it's really fucking hard wrong very wrong it is very difficult i've been trying for the last couple of years? My first thought was like, you know, just a really attractive, I know this is basic bitch shit, but a really attractive female like the Magic Girl. I don't know what it is about that woman that Jeremy Packer (Zombie Yeti) drew, but she's just, I like looking at it and I never get sick of it. But then I'm like, well, the story behind it is just so shit that it's kind of tainted, but not and i don't want like it's people ask you questions like oh what is what does that mean like what's the significance of that and and i know i know a pinball person will draw their own conclusions if they see magic girl on there you know what i mean like yeah well i'm lucky you know i've got a tattoo and people go oh cool a lightning bolt no need to explain that it's actually a lightning bolt from the video game Tekken. So I'm kind of cool that I don't have to explain. I can go, it's just a lightning bolt. Whatever. Lightning is awesome. Why have you got lightning on your leg? Does that mean you're a fast runner? I used to be back in my day. Have you seen me? Have you seen me? I don't think I've ever seen you, like, walk fast, Marty. Like, not even jog. I don't think I've ever seen you do anything but slowly walk. Do you Is it possible for you to jog? Yeah I do I do I do I'm quite Particularly at work I'm very energetic Yeah So But yeah No I'm just you know When we're out I get a pinball meet What am I running to? Fucking The next game To get your scores in Yeah What do you Have you had any ideas That you've been close to Marty? Like what's What's the top of your list If you If you want to reveal that Well no because if I say that Then people are going to get it And go Hey, we did it first. You're copying me. What I – I just – so anyway, I'm just going to go back as well because I do actually have the lightning bolt that's on the arm of Jin Kazama is on my leg. So Jin Kazama from Tekken. And I remember at the time getting it and this guy at work came up to me and went, why are you getting a tattoo from a game? You might as well have like Space Invaders on your leg. I'm like, yeah, cool. I'd love Space Invaders on my leg. And he's like, oh, I just got a cool tattoo of I love blah, blah, blah, his girlfriend. Right? And she's got a tattoo that says I love blah, blah, blah. They fucking broke up three months later, you dumb fucking cunt. Like, seriously. And you have a go at me for getting a tattoo about something that I love. And so now when I look at my tattoo, I go, fuck, I loved Tekken back then. Fuck, I loved it. But he loved that girl back then as well, though. No, but then they hated each other. I've not hated Tekken. I've just moved on to other things. Yeah, it's hard. I mean, a lot of people that have heaps of tattoos, just like, ah, don't overthink it. Just get it. I was talking about this the other night with some friends, and he's just like, well, what's a pinball machine then that you will never get sick of? and I was just like Demolition Man like I fucking love Demolition Man I love that I love it because you love the call outs from the museum multiple how do they go again wait wait buddy because the tattoo I'm just like well if I was to do Demolition Man because like the movie is fucking a bit stupid like I'm not going to do the seashells or something like how would you represent what I love the most about Demolition Man as a tattoo and then I I did the call out. And our mate was just like, you know how people get the heartbeat of their like dead fucking relative, someone important to them, like the last heartbeat or whatever it is, tattooed. It's like the sound wave or the heartbeat. It's like, get that, get, get Sebastian Stallone's fucking jackpot call out as a sound wave on your fucking buddy. And in the moment I was a little bit, I was a little bit drunk. I was like, you know what? I fucking could do that because no one, I'll just tell them that and no one will know what it is. And he's like, even better, get a QR code. Get a QR code in your body and people will scan it and then it will take them to YouTube where Sylvester Stallone will just fucking do that. It's interactive. That is a great idea. I absolutely condone this. And he's like, well, then use a forwarding service. And just in case, for whatever reason, you don't want that anymore, you can forward it to whatever you want. It's a QR code forwarding service of the tattoo. I'm like, maybe. I'm going to sit on that one a little bit more. But email us at headtoheadpinball. What's our email address, mate? Yeah, it is headtoheadpinball at gmail.com. Yeah, I don't have access to it anymore, mate, but you can forward it to me. Like, what tattoo should write? You know what? Don't email us. I'll just put it on as a Facebook. Put it on the Facebook page. Facebook, yeah. When we put this episode up and, you know, it's going to have prolapse in it. I'm just telling you now, Ryan. So just so everyone knows when you see that, not to click away and think that it's some weird medical experiment gone wrong. It's just comment on the post. Just say, this is all. Send us a picture of the tattoo that Ryan should have. Oh my god. Yeah, send us a picture of the tattoo and I will copy it. No, I want to get original stuff because my first tattoo wasn't super original, Marty. Really? I didn't know that. You didn't know that, no. Yeah, I wanted to start a bit basic, but anyway. It's a fucking beautiful tattoo. It is just, it's really nice. I just realized if I fisted someone, I would be tattooed. I tattooed. If I was fisting someone's prolapsed arsehole, Marty, like it's an arrow. It's an arrow pointing towards where my palm points. So I would be literally piercing their prolapsed arsehole. Yeah. Anyway. Yeah. Okay. So it's basically you can go, hmm, there's a prolapsed arsehole over there. I just don't know where my fist goes. and you look at your arm and you go, oh, that's the direction it goes in. Oh, got it. Yep. What are your wishes for 2022 in pinball, Marty? For people to fucking lay off bagging us. I would like, no, you know what? I would, my wish is for everybody, God, this sounds so fucking lame, this answer, But I really do genuinely hope that people enjoy their fathom and they enjoy the rulescape. Oh, I'm just making that up. Do you like it? Rulescape. What is that? The landscape rulescape? Well, it's the rules. It's the framework. It's the visual landscape. It's all of it coming together. It's not just rules. It really is the experience that we give you with Fathom 2.0 because that's going to then lead into what we do next. Do you ever fear that not enough people will have access to certain games, whether it be Kelts or Fathom Revisited, that it will take a while to get momentum? Like, if, you know, by some chance you fucking knock it out of the park and it's amazing, it's... I don't know, is there a similar game where it's like, oh my gosh, this game's amazing, but it just didn't sell? You know, it was a limited run. I mean, like, we talked about it before, you know, where, like, you know, Big Bang Bar and Cactus Canyon and they didn't sell well. And part of the people hyping it up, it's like, well, the rules aren't actually that good. It's just limited. are you afraid that that that's a zone that you can enter into where people will start to say well is the game actually good or is it just the fact that it's a rare game to play well that's something that for me I want people to be completely renewed and not just think about it nostalgically you know what I tell you what would be a win for me is when I hear that the majority of people when they turn fathom on they choose the revisited rule set rule set and not the classic that would be a win for me i'm pretty sure that's gonna happen i'm pretty sure people are not gonna want to play the original uh who knows who knows you know what i've been testing it and i i still love i still love the original minimum you know i'm a huge fan of fathom that's why we're kind of on board doing it. So there's something cool about hearing the original sounds and you know, you've got... What other games from the early 80s that barely produced money are you also into besides Fathom? Can you name four others? Just four. I don't want too many. Just your top four. Are you into Centaur? I don't know. Did it work? What am I into? Guys that have got horse bodies? Is that what you're saying? Or bicycles as their bodies as a centaur? Yeah, what do you think about people with machines that don't have that much colour, but a bit black and white? What I think is there's so much you can do with that. With so many balls. so anyway look i i can't i should look yes you've got me right now where i'm so fucking drunk but i've still got my ability hopefully to not say things i shouldn't say what do you think of John Papadiuk okay do you know what this is what i'm going to say about John Papadiuk and this is what i'm going to say about deep root in general i am really fucking bummed that that that had happened this year you you and i yes you and i spoke about it many times when obviously we joked about the name but besides that we were kind of rallying them on we were rooting for them because we kind of did want another big player out there. So I didn't lose money with John Papadiuk. I don't think a lot of people did with John Papadiuk. 30 people maybe. And they all got a barely working Magic Girl in the end, possibly. I don't know. so i i'm not i'm not like these people that think he's a complete pariah um so i i i love his games so i'm kind of bummed that we don't get more john poppetick games if i'm really honest that's what i feel boring what did you want me to say that i still say that he's a cunt come on No, I don't. I'll say it. I never... I don't know whether I ever thought he was. I mean, fuck me. There are people that have done far worse than him in this hobby. Just letting you know. Do you want to know who they are? The negative Nancys out there, Marty. I know what you're talking about. Yeah. So there are worse stories than that Yes, it all went wrong and blah blah blah But, you know, that's what happened I still think that we are worse off for not having Deep Root Obviously it wasn't going to happen because of the circumstances But I'm still really disappointed I'm disappointed that it didn't happen Are you? yeah it almost seems like it didn't happen now if that makes sense when you when you're not really part of the podcast scene you're not really on on pin side anymore i'm like did it happen was it a dream like how how did this whole thing unfold but you're right um it it would be nice if you know i was like jersey jack was saying like four years ago like yeah jersey jack needs to graduate now and release more than one pinball machine a year and we're like four years down the track and that that hasn't happened yet and um people would say things and i wouldn't believe it like there was certain things that were just said over and over again like stern dominates and and i was in like denial because i i didn't want stern to dominate so much because back then stern wasn't actually that great stern releasing pins they were unfinished and and and they wouldn't code update for a while um but now i'm just like okay well stern actually have hired all these people and their code is way better and like there really is no one like cern in the market but because of that like because they're so good now at what they do and they were good at manufacturing before just not amazing amazing machines but i do believe the pinball machine is coming now out of out of stern and it's hard to say that because you can't look back on it um yet and still new but they are some of the best machines out there ever. And that's a little bit sad, I guess, that in the rich history of pinball, the new machine is potentially the best pinball machine of all time. But with that, we are at the mercy of this juggernaut in the industry, and it would only be good for the pinball hobby moving forward if there are more people producing quality machines at affordable prices. Yeah, so tell me about this bubble bursting. Yeah, not going to happen. Not going to happen. But it's the funny thing. It's like David Fix. I'm pretty sure that was this year when David Fix kind of famously kind of, yeah, I think it was really early this year, kind of famously said, like if you don't have your five-year badge, you haven't been in the hobby for five years, then you don't have the same like pulling power and you're what you say doesn't mean as much as the people who have been around for ages and that is such a losing strategy to understanding the pinball yeah and mark at the moment is literally like shooting yourself in the fucking foot if you believe that um because the new whether or not you like it i'm pretty sure the new people in the hobby actually dictate where the hobby is going um and and the old people in the hobby are the ones that are afraid of that and once upon a time i was a new person in the hobby and i still feel like i'm very very new compared to some people that have been around for 30 years but like sometimes you could you could feel the people like oh like why did you fucking buy the pinball for that price brian like you're like don't you know that you could have got twice over two thousand dollars back in the day um where did they come from did they come from the bronx or something is that what it was i don't know it was a chicago i don't know but some sort of mobster sound anyway yeah give that uh that's just a dumb motherfucker sound that's just like just a shit opinion but um yeah the new people in the hobby are the ones that like they they usually think about it the most positive way and that's like why would you not want the money of a new person in the hobby who's gonna be nothing but appreciative of what you give them versus somewhere that someone that's been in the hobby for 30 years who's just you are not gonna grow the hobby through us old fucks that are already in the hobby wow how can you not get that don't try and appease the person who has been around for a while like if they haven't left by now they're never gonna leave and if they don't buy your pinball machine because it's not three thousand dollars then that's fine because you can't produce a fucking pinball machine for three thousand dollars um so yeah i think i think people maybe are coming to grips with that. And yeah, I don't think the new people in the hobby are going to disappear. Like once you're into pinball, like you're kind of in it for a while. Well, this is the whole thing, right? Like everybody knows, when do you get one pinball, that becomes two and it becomes three. So if you're now paying for one pinball machine that's 50% more than what it should be, chances are you're going to pay for two because that's your expectation of what pinball machines cost. Yeah. Right? Yeah, I think 2022 is going to be a really revealing year about this whole bubble thing that people are talking about because the scarcity is still there, and I don't see it bursting. I see it as a permanent shift forward, and I think there definitely have been a bunch of... Legends of Valhalla, if released at a different time, probably wouldn't have had the same outcome, but it's come at a time where people are starved for pinball machines, and if you have something in stock that you can deliver, someone will buy it. And I had a conversation with someone the other day where he kind of said, like, I'm looking to buy a new pinball machine and I rank stern and it's going to take this long, so I'm going to get this pinball machine which is pretty much in stock. And I think I sent that to you, Marty, and it's a big thing if people are buying pinball machines to fill their room up and whatever what you have available and I think TNA is an anomaly Legends of Valhalla is an anomaly as long as pinball companies realise that and respect that that they're not if American Pinball I think keep on releasing unlicensed pinball machines eventually it'll catch up to them and people will be like I don't want this game it's just a product of where we're at right now with scarcity and whatnot couldn't agree more yeah so pierce of 2021 are we gonna fucking wrap it up marty yeah let's do it it's bedtime i asked marty the other day yesterday i was just like uh maybe record like on monday at like when i could put the kids to bed like nine nine p.m and money's like i'm asleep at night gone are the days of you fucking editing the podcast until one o'clock i don't know when i'm gonna get to this but it's true i literally come home and eat and go to bed i did you ever think that you would be like you had a pretty stressful job but you still I feel like you're working way more now in a hobby that you love than you did in something that you potentially didn't care as much about. Yeah. So, you know, you and I, we've spoken about this before. I think you sort of made that comment on Final Round. I work longer hours, but I always, I've always, in every job, I've always worked long hours. because I believe in putting in what I can put in. Like the maximum that I can do is what I'll give. And the thing that really grinds my gears is people that, I call them Johnny Punch Clock. Get in at eight, leave at four. Get in at nine, leave at five. I'm not like that. I'm just somebody that will give everything that I can give until I've got no more. And some days I just look at my watch and I go, holy crap that's a long day I probably should go home but I'm just I've got a lot to do and I'm enjoying what I do that it just it still just doesn't feel like I'm working more than what I was previously probably because it is more satisfying and also because I used to manage 200 people previously and people I've got to tell you Ryan people are fucking difficult to manage and you know people come and go they do and generally they go because they're just not suited to what you're doing my my job at my business is is not managing people but i literally i'm one under the boss but and i have the power to to take people off billable work to to work for me i create teams to like go for proposals and stuff and it is it is so fucking hard because it's i'm not a manager but i have manager powers and um i can't imagine what it'd be like doing a people machine because way more complicated than creating these documents that i create but yeah it's it's fucking hard dealing with people's things like hey i really need you to to to do this right now because if you don't then the company doesn't make money um but anyway um work yeah i usually just kept getting these jobs managing people because i was good at it and because i had the stamina to manage people and to deal with people and all their different craziness for a long period of time i'm probably enjoying this job so much more because i don't have to i don't manage people i just i manage my output and i i influence the people around me i don't have to worry about whether somebody's coming into work today or whether their car's broken down or their grandmother's died for the third time you know what i mean or they've got gastro gastro is the number one bullshit reason for not coming into work really or all the kids are sick or you know just stuff like that is just it's weird it's weird now with covid because like you don't even need to like the the effort required is is so low like you can be like oh no i'm here at work um but not actually like do anything like because people are working from home there's no yeah you think that that you think that's what people think that just letting you know if you have slack your boss can fucking see everything you're doing the amount of time they have your computer open what times you have open slack is a spying device just just just so you know just so you know your boss can spy on you yeah so yeah summary is making pinball is not for the faint at heart you have got to be 150 you know people go oh 110 like bullshit it's either 100 like it can't be any more than that so you've got to be 100 committed to what you need to deliver and you've got to just roll with the punches because you will get a lot of fucking punches. When someone, yeah. As I said, I don't even know half of that. I mean, you're saying, it's kind of like when someone's just like, oh, my mum's dying of cancer. And unless you've had someone in your family die of cancer, it's very hard to put yourself in those shoes. Someone's like, I just went to this country and I did this, this, that. I haven't been there. So when people talk about how hard pinball is, I understand, but also it's with a very superficial understanding. I'm just like, yeah, but I can't put myself in those shoes. I've never made a pinball machine. And I don't... That just sounds like a headache. So when someone walks up to you at a pinball tournament and is like, hi Ryan, I'm going to start a pinball company, which happened this year, it's kind of crazy. I'm just like, whoa. Do you want to start a pinball company? What did you say to somebody that would ask you that? You are fucking crazy. I don't know what I said because I think I was in autopilot mode trying to convince them. Did you say, yeah, you should go Kickstarter? I hear that. Yeah, I don't know. It's like that thing, you wish everyone well. What did Jersey Jack say? Yeah, go for it. Do it. Go and do it. We'll support you. But when you say, fuck, this is hard and you've lost a couple million dollars, yeah like yeah I almost feel like it's everyone's responsibility to tell people not to start a new pinball machine company just help the ones that exist if you know something that they don't know yeah starting from scratch because yeah it's a manufacturing company you just the thing that you happen to be manufacturing is pinball machines so and you know what we and this is why this I guess this is why I'm I'm working for Haggis is because I've, all my years, I have dreamt of designing games and, and of wanting, and oh my God, what theme would I do? And all this kind of stuff. It's great. We, we romance, romance. Oh, wow. One second. Okay. We romanticize, that's the word, with the notion of being in a people company, starting a people company. And if you had this conversation with Damien, he would say the same thing. It's great to feel this excitement and euphoria, oh my God, I'm building a people company. As soon as you start that company, reality is very different to the romance and you realize, like a lot of relationships, you've got to work at these things. Relationships are easy.