Triple Drain Pinball Podcast Episode 40 - Going deep on VENOM!

The Pinball Network·video·1h 57m·analyzed·Jul 25, 2023

Analysis

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TL;DR

Triple Drain analyzes Venom's disappointing initial reception and redemptive gameplay reveal.

Summary

Triple Drain Pinball Podcast Episode 40 focuses on an in-depth discussion of Stern's Venom pinball machine. The hosts analyze pre- and post-stream reactions, examining the game's theme appeal, artwork, playfield layout, and mechanical innovations (particularly the fast locks and host-selection leveling system). They discuss community sentiment shift from initial disappointment with sales and visual presentation to renewed interest after gameplay reveal, contextualizing this within broader industry trends around comic book theme saturation and pricing dynamics.

Key Claims

Venom had a slow initial sales performance with many distributor LE allocations still available at normal pricing as of the recording date (April 24)
high confidence · Host directly states: 'as of right now we're recording this on the 24th there are a lot of Distributors that still have Les completely available at normal pricing and that's that's weird that is weird to me that is not normal'
Zombie Eddie has designed roughly 5-6 of the last 10 Stern releases, including all recent comic book themed machines
high confidence · Host counts backwards: 'Venom, Foo Fighters, Godzilla, Avengers, Turtles, Ghostbusters, Deadpool' and concludes 'basically every comic book pin he's done since Guardians'
The fast lock mechanic in Venom instantly ejects a ball from one lock when another ball registers in a designated target, enabling simultaneous flipper action
high confidence · Host explains: 'the moment that ball is registered by a switch it shoots out a ball from the fast lock... you have a chance to flip a ball on your right flipper before the first ball you shot is even on a wire form'
Comic book theme fatigue exists industry-wide among pinball buyers and general entertainment consumers
high confidence · Host states: 'there's a lot of comic book fatigue with it... even the CEO of Disney came out and said oh something about that they need to get a little bit more focused... I think that there's definitely a over saturation going on right now with comics'
Venom's initial reveal images and trailer failed to communicate key mechanical features like the moving middle ramp and lock system
high confidence · Host explains: 'the images that I will say on the stern release trailer... didn't really communicate some of the biggest mechanical aspects of this game... those just looked like okay great something to slow the ball down'
Pricing parity between new and proven games (Venom Premium at same MSRP as Godzilla Premium) creates consumer cannibalization
high confidence · Host notes: 'a consumer can look at this and see that a Venom premium is the exact same price as a Godzilla premium... which one are you going to buy'

Notable Quotes

“theme does matter to you guys but at the same time you guys are highly skilled tournament Players most of the time it really just comes down to the layout and the code is what draws you into a pin”
Unnamed host@ 3:05 — Establishes the tension between theme appeal for casual players vs. layout/code for competitive players
“this is a really good zombie Yetti package... Zambia to go in a whole nother Direction”
Unnamed host@ 7:48 — Acknowledges Zombie Eddie's consistent quality while noting differentiation from recent Stern releases
“we're in a weird spot where now Distributors actually have a lot of options a lot of options in stock sitting on a shelf”
Unnamed host@ 19:24 — Highlights unprecedented market saturation and availability of competing titles
“you have a chance to flip a ball on your right flipper before the first ball you shot is even on a wire form like that it's that instantaneous ball returning to flipper”
Unnamed host (Tom or Travis)@ 29:01 — Describes the novel fast lock mechanic that reinvigorated interest in the game
“I wish they would have mentioned because I I just feel like a lot of people they didn't get what this game was at the beginning”
Travis Murie@ 31:47 — Identifies poor explanation of leveling system as communication failure in official reveal
“the wind was gone there was no wind behind sails or whatever I don't know what metaphor I'm going for here but everything just seemed deflated before the Stream”
Unnamed host — Captures the dramatic sentiment shift from pre-announcement to post-reveal

Entities

Venomgame Zombie EddiepersonTravis MuriepersonTomperson Brian Eddyperson

Signals

?
product_launch: Venom experienced unusually slow initial sales with many distributor LE allocations remaining available at normal pricing as of April 24, contrasting sharply with typical Stern release patterns where LEs sell out quickly
high · Host states: 'as of right now we're recording this on the 24th there are a lot of Distributors that still have Les completely available at normal pricing and that's that's weird that is weird to me that is not normal'
~
sentiment_shift: Community sentiment shifted from deflated/negative (pre-stream) to renewed interest (post-stream) upon discovering fast lock mechanics and gameplay speed, despite unchanged theme and playfield layout
high · Host: 'the wind was gone... everything just seemed deflated before the Stream... and then the stream happened and I will say my view on this game changed very quickly'
?
design_innovation: Venom introduces 'fast locks' mechanic that instantly ejects balls from one lock when another ball registers at a target, enabling simultaneous flipper action and unprecedented game speed, similar to Rick and Morty portal lock
high · Host explains: 'you have a chance to flip a ball on your right flipper before the first ball you shot is even on a wire form like that it's that instantaneous ball returning to flipper'
$
market_signal: Fixed MSRP pricing model creates direct consumer comparison scenarios where proven games (Godzilla, Foo Fighters) at identical price point to new unproven game (Venom) drive purchasing decisions toward safe options
high · Host: 'a consumer can look at this and see that a Venom premium is the exact same price as a Godzilla premium... which one are you going to buy are you going to buy the thing that's unproven... or you're going to buy the game that is basically an s-tier level game'

Topics

Venom game design and mechanical featuresprimaryComic book theme saturation in pinballprimarySales performance and market dynamicsprimaryArtwork and visual presentation by Zombie EddieprimaryPre-stream vs post-stream sentiment shiftprimaryPricing parity and consumer cannibalizationsecondaryFast locks and innovative mechanical featuressecondaryHost-selection/leveling system gameplaysecondary

Sentiment

mixed(0.52)— Negative initial sentiment on theme, layout, and sales performance shifted notably positive post-stream due to fast lock mechanic revelation and gameplay speed. Hosts demonstrate cautiously optimistic view after gameplay footage, but acknowledge valid concerns about theme appeal and pricing dynamics. Critical of official communication and reveal strategy while praising actual game mechanical innovation.

Transcript

youtube_auto_sub · $0.000

network is online launching triple drain pinball podcast all right here we go episode 40 guys episode 44-0 is our special guest four no we don't have one no guess what no no guess today just just the three of us uh episode 40 though holy cow um yeah well I'm ready uh Tom are you ready damn right I'm ready okay good Travis were you taking a selfie what were you doing back there while the little music was going to get a picture that was all on there I was just trying to level you were leveling you decided this was the time to level the picture okay it looks good it looks yeah thank you thank you I did it see Monica didn't do anything it's all me uh yeah okay so you're good okay all right I'm hitting the button [Music] s [Music] Triple Tree Triple Tree nah sounds good every time I love that song um well hello welcome everybody episode 40. um this is gonna be we'll go over our show notes here so um Venom okay done okay so those are our show notes uh we've got so much to talk about so much to talk about Venom this game I'm I'm just I don't know I'm really excited for this conversation obviously there's three of us um and I will tell you the three people here one of them is all for it one of them is kind of against it and the other one's sitting on the fence and you guys The Listener can just try to figure out who's who but I'm I'm pumped I think this is going to be a fun fun conversation um so yeah Venom Stern Venom if if you've been living under a rock's turn Venom was announced what was it last week uh then they went on sale or it's two weeks ago they went on sale uh last Tuesday I think and then it was streamed last Wednesday so the way we want to break down this conversation is we kind of want to do pre-stream and post Stream So before the stream the teaser comes out first and foremost uh Travis and Tom is was Venom a theme that that you guys were excited about or are excited about theme wise does it does it get you going for me no okay for me yes the mystery who's who who's gonna we're crushing it 40 episodes done good job guys yeah I mean I do know theme does uh matter to you guys but at the same time you guys are highly you know highly skilled tournament Players most of the time it really just comes down to the layout and the code is what draws you into a pin but I Know Travis I mean you you are you definitely like you've said before like Avengers that was a that's like a dream team of yours I know you're very into comic books Turtles was similar um and so Venom coming out that doesn't surprise me that that's a theme that you're excited about but um I will say it is a the more that I've learned about Venom I've realized how deep the character actually is but it is clear that we are now getting into like like not main level comic book characters we're now in like the second tier third tier digging deep yeah I mean well that's why as soon as I figured out that null was in the game when I saw that I lost my mind now granted that probably meant that about 95 the pinball consumer base or people that play Pinball had no idea who that was but for me as a comic book fan yeah like I loved it it's yeah it's pretty awesome yeah and I will say I've done a few flipping out with friends uh streams in hottie Frisco Pinball's been on it and he is Venom is like his number one character by a landslide so this lore that he's bringing in I did not realize how much venom he's this symbiote where it's this goo that can transfer between characters and every character that it it basically covers it heightens their abilities and in my mind the original Venom which is uh what is it Brock Eddie Brock Eddie Brock is the original like that's the one I know and I knew it from the original like Spider-Man cartoon I did not realize there are so many other Venoms venom has like so many other and then you get the other symbiotes of what like Carnage and there's the whole I don't there's so much yes lots of lots of so much stuff we don't have the board The Listener with that I'm sure if you guys want to hear that after you hear this podcast then you can go to Like Comics explained on YouTube or something and there's so much yeah oh yeah call him straight up but I mean I would consider myself like I grew up on a lot of that but it this is surprising me that now we're in a character where it's like my comic book knowledge is not enough or like my you know growing up on Batman the Animated Series X-Men the Animated Series Spider-Man the Animated Series Superman the animated series like all these now we're getting into deeper than that and so I don't know I props to stern for like given a shot to this but it does make you wonder and we've kind of talked about this before like what's the next character they're gonna go with you know what's the next just in the Marvel Universe of movies now we're getting Dr Strange movies and and um Black Panther movies and stuff so it wouldn't surprise me if one of them are would be a pin down the road um we had a little side conversation before this and it's very clear if you look at the last I don't know how many releases Stern is basically flip-flopping between some sort of comic book related something Band theme comic book related something ban theme and even their band themes like Foo Fighters have kind of taken a comic book esque approach and so is this something where it's just coincidental where comic books or this type of Animation just works well with pinball or is there a chance we need we need to try I don't know like Tom you're not necessarily all in on comic books do you feel it's like is it time to try something new is it time to Branch out in a different direction or I like the superhero pins but yeah it might be time to try a different avenue but yeah the Venom theme just doesn't really hit home with me so um but we'll we'll talk more about that when we get into gameplay and all that sure well so we knew it was Venom and then um some of the animations came out and some of the art the world the images so pre-stream the images come out and we saw a little bit of Animation during the um the teaser trailer and I will say once again zombie Eddie crushed it um we have we did talk about this on Triple drain where we're like how's it going to do Venom Venom's kind of a black and white character he leaned heavily into the dark Blues did some purples he did bring in a decent bit of red with Carnage but overall I think this is a really good zombie Yeti package I know there's been some conversation about these two pins behind me with Foo and and Godzilla Foo Fighters and Godzilla having very similar with these two art packages being very similar with a color palette standpoint it is cool to see Zambia to go in a whole nother Direction um but what are your thoughts on like zombie Eddie at this point he did the last two Stern pins I don't know is this are we just spoiled at this point with this much zombie Yeti art or do we feel that like all right should we stick with this I heard some complaining about the art I I think the Arts phenomenal yeah yeah I think his some people have said one of the complaints about the art they've they've talked they still think it's too bright too saturated they're like this should be darker this should be dimmer and people said similar things about Godzilla and if you remember that was the number one complaint when Godzilla came out is the way it looked and here we are what over a year plus later nobody's complaining about the way it looks like nobody cares anymore nobody cares at all about everybody says how awesome this pen is how beautiful this pen is but with with Venom people are saying that why is it not darker or more rooting or kind of scary desaturated kind of look and all I can think of is like because arcades want bright arcades want games that are bright and catch your eye and draw you in so I don't fault him at all but I just think it's crazy hearing people complain complain about zombie Eddie art once again on pinside because it's so good like are we just spoiled at this point I mean I I think part of it is too is that there's a lot of zombie Yeti art okay one Stern pinball machines that could be part of it I I think legitimately he's probably done what five at the last ten maybe six of the last 10 pins that they've released I'm just throwing out a number off the top of my head I mean let's let's kind of work backwards here so there's Venom what was the last one he did fighters fighters Godzilla there's three Avengers Turtles four five Ghostbusters and you go further back Ghostbusters I feel like did he do Deadpool I can't remember yep so basically every comic book well every yeah every comic book pin he's done sense Guardians which yeah yeah you're right guardians but Guardians didn't do comic book Guardians did movie movie yeah yeah so I mean I think maybe that's part of it I don't know I personally love his artwork and I don't have any issues with it I also made a c in art in high school so I have no idea what I'm talking about when I look at it but you know I I feel I feel like it looks good do I wish that there was a black and white pin yeah I think that that would have been pretty sweet but at the same time it's you could even done that for Ninja Turtles because the comics were originally black and white you could do that for Walking Dead if you wanted to if you vaulted it so yeah I think that there's certain creative things that you can do but then there's probably also things that you have to do because of what the license or wants you to do also so I mean I'm not going to fault it either way I think it looks great personally yeah I think it looks incredible oh I think the art looks incredible and hey if you disagree with us send us an email at triple Dragon gmail.com or make a comment on our YouTube video We're not gonna get an email about it no but it but I think it's crazy like I think that's crazy it's so consistently great and it's so consistently good but yet still people find you know thoughts on well I would have done this or I would have done that and it's like man it could have been so much worse it could have like it could be yeah I mean you just you just never know and it's the same way that I think there is a lot of things with pinball nowadays that a lot of us are spoiled by including design including code including animations including artwork and yeah if this was 20 plus years ago it would look a lot different and anything that comes out today would almost be S tier quality compared to what came out a lot of times I mean 24 artwork anybody remember that CSI maybe not NBA it's so yeah I think it's just a sign of the times and there's just a lot of pinball coming out too there's a lot of different options out and people are comparing things to the other options that are available so I don't fault people if they don't like what they see is what it is that's their opinion but at the same time this is what Stern decide to put out this is zombie Yeti's best effort towards this project and I personally think it looks great and yeah perfect for other people to think that it doesn't look great that's perfectly fine as well and zombie also did Iron Maiden forgot that one um but yeah I think well if you look at the other pins that zombie Eddie didn't do Rush people complain about the art James Bond people complained about the art um Jurassic Park they tried a new artist we're all like apes Joel We will complain about anything we will all find something to complain about I do the same thing all the time so it's yeah it's just human nature I think that's part of doing something that's creative it's the same way that we get complaints we you know whenever Tom doesn't look sexy enough on camera we get complaints about it yeah well so it's carrying the complaints though the other thing that we saw when the when the images came out was people are like this game is wide open people just uh the images that I will say on the stern release trailer and the stern uh images that were Post online in my opinion didn't really communicate some of the biggest mechanical aspects of this game being one on the premium in Le that middle ramp how it how it changes States between characters and then also the locks on the side like and we'll get into what we saw with those locks during the stream but those just looked they looked like okay great something to slow the ball down when it returns that's what people thought the locks were and people didn't really realize how that middle ramp would actually affect the gameplay so the images people are like okay we have this crazy fan layout all the games are way in the back there's nothing going on in the middle of the Playfield at all and so people are start dogging on that and they're like this game looks boring or this game the shots just nothing about these shots are we excited about or you know let's let's look back at like Foo Fighters Foo Fighters when you see some of the shots like this is a weird s-curve thing like how is this gonna work you know there's shots that you're Intrigue you to like I I can't wait to feel what that feels like but these images and the dealer Chooser trailer come out and I I'm with the majority of people saw it and were like I'm not seeing anything here that I'm excited about to shoot so unfortunately on reveal day I think the overall like Steam behind this game it just went it got deflated really quickly and I Know Travis you work for a distributor and I think we've seen this with sales we've seen this with sales as well and we can get into more detail there but this was one of those games that it did not it did not sell out immediately it every every other thing it's like how do I get one and you know every distributor had their wish list and good luck if you've been on it for a few years but this this game was one of those where I think people were on their list and people said nope I'm out and as of right now we're recording this on the 24th there are a lot of Distributors that still have Les completely available at normal pricing and that's that's weird that is weird to me that is not normal Tom you've been in this longer than Travis and myself that is not normal or is this what it used to be is this the good old days like I don't know I I mean there's there's a lot of Les now though too I mean it's not like there's 250 Les there's a thousand of them but okay but you know I just think there's not enough going on on the Playfield and that's one of the reasons and I also think it's a theme I I think the theme doesn't resonate with a A lot of people I think you're right that's my opinion no I mean it's very hot that's no that's legitimately what you just said there Tom it's at least in my observation that's one of the main drivers to this I I think that industry-wide with pinball if you look at message boards Facebook just general conversations people have at Expos there's a lot of comic book fatigue with it and we've talked about that with how many different comic themes have come out and even entertainment wise there's a ton of comic book fatigue you see people just dogging on the Disney Plus shows even the CEO of Disney came out and said oh something about that they need to get a little bit more focused that maybe that kind of it diluted their product a little bit and it's just kind of even the movies it's it doesn't feel like a tent pole event anymore when it comes out and so I think that there's definitely a over saturation going on right now with comics and with the themes and I can say that as a comic book fan I love reading the comics I read them every single week and I've read them for 30 plus years but I understand why the general public is kind of getting burned out by it and it makes total sense that you see the pinball buyer kind of getting burnt out by it too so when you dig into certain themes like this that are obviously not a-tier themes well something has to happen with it it has to be an absolute Banger of a design where something has to really pull people in with that hook and so we kind of saw the combination of the theme not really resonating with people and the layout generally not resonating with people when they first saw it you know now of course some opinions have changed since they saw it actually be played but then at the same time this is kind of the big difference between this and Foo Fighters when Foo Fighters got revealed in terms of the gameplay we actually saw just an instant everybody's like okay I'm in and that's when you saw even a bigger buying frenzy happen it's kind of like after this was revealed at Comic-Con nobody really went out a frenzy never happened and you really know you didn't see anything tick upwards as a matter of fact there's probably some situations in which you saw people that were sitting on the fence they decided to go elsewhere yeah and buy a different pen and you know I I don't know if Stern would necessarily care about that because it's still a Stern Pinball Machine that they're opting for because they have so many different options so it's not like that they're all sudden going to another company or something like that so yeah I think that a lot of it has to do with the theme I think a lot of it has to do with that there's so many available too a thousand where Les are a lot and let's face facts for the price point that it's at I think that people have finally reached that ceiling that they're expecting a lot for that price and rightfully so for thirteen thousand dollars MSRP or 12.99 whatever it is you should expect a lot out of it and I say that as somebody that not only works for a company that sells machines as as somebody that's bought Ellie's in the past for a much lower than what it was back when it was like nine thousand dollars MSRP back then so yeah I think that that's kind of the variables that you see coming together all at once in this in this situation yeah and we talked about this earlier where um we're in a weird spot where now Distributors actually have a lot of options a lot of options in stock sitting on a shelf so there are people that may have been holding on to premium money where they're like all right I'm gonna buy a premium if I'm in if Venom this stream blows me away I'm in on a premium and then they're like well they can turn and what do what do Distributors have in stock they have Foo Fighters in stock in Godzilla and Jurassic Park in Iron Maiden like all amazing games Bond there's some people have led Zeppelins in rush like not rush rush premium I think most of those are gone but it's like they have so much yeah they have so many options just sitting there new in box and that was not the issue that's not been the case for for multiple years now where it's kind of just people are itching for whatever's available now almost everything's available and everything that is available is really really good so you know do you go for the sure thing or are you going to roll the dice on something new and and if it's going to be a theme that people aren't super in love with not saying anything bad about against Venom it's just this is a kind of a more Niche theme and then the layout there isn't anything in there like that just blew people away when they saw it for the first time and then you know as much as I love Dwight I love Dwight um Dwight code is kind of a very polarizing him as a coder um the way that he codes get codes games normally it's it's can be very Hit or Miss for people um I really like the stuff he does because I think he really focuses well on story and moments and drawing a player in that way but I know like the tournament scene a lot of people get frustrated by his code um I don't know Tom you're making a face well no I I was just gonna allude to I I think the code could actually save this game yes um yeah that's that's the thing you know so um now granted we none of us have played it and I'm just getting that like when it when stranger things came out same same designer Brian Eddy yep it's just it's just that fan layout you know you see that everywhere what I'm thinking is you know what what kind of hurt Williams pinball was our older games you know their older games were doing better on route now we got a fan another fan layout after we had what Foo Fighters which was yeah extremely unique layout yep and Godzilla which was another extremely unique layout so you know to me this game like when I looked at the pro I'm like wow it just seems so Barren and empty I I it's just the thought I had now maybe I'm gonna play this game and be like wow this is a fantastic super fast I love it because I do like fast games but I just think the actual fan layout two flippers is what's disappointing to me sure and it's very safe that's the thing where I think when the images came out in the trailer it's just like this is this has the potential to be a great game but for what I'm seeing before the stream like nothing is making me pull the trigger on this the prices are high there's a ton of games that are available it's a theme that I'm not you know in love with I'm not seeing anything that's drawing me in it looks safe and the code is still a big question mark so nobody jumped on it nobody jumped on it before the stream well consider this too and this is this is where the pinball industry as a whole will always struggle okay it's mainly because there's no if you look at the stern pricing model there's nothing Dynamic about it so a consumer can look at this and say and see that a Venom premium is the exact same price as a Godzilla premium they they can look at that and see it and so it becomes a point like which one are you going to buy are you going to buy the thing that's unproven that you see that there's plenty of stock out there and you're just going to kind of wait and see or you're going to buy the game that is basically an s-tier level game that's one of the greatest of all times and it's available at the same price so that that's what's happening right now and that's what makes it very tough to do Foo Fighters was kind of the same way that's why it sold like hotcakes at the beginning because the prices were the same as James Bond yeah so when you can make a direct comparison to different games and they all carry the same monetary value in terms of how much a dealer is going to sell it for and yeah that's going to make it to where just the whole ecosystem of what somebody's gonna buy it's going to make it lopsided it's just a matter that's just the way it's gonna gonna play out either way so I think that Dynamic is at play too that people can just look at it and just see what the pricing is and if and and the thing is too guys let's face facts the pinball buyer has very much been trained to be very price conscious of what they're going to get what they're going to buy you see a lot of people all the time and we see it right now with the Venom lease I've seen it on 10 side Facebook to where people are advertising selling these games and they're even adding in on the headlines no tax free shipping they're doing everything they can to push this push this product out but yet we're doing it at the point to where we're making it to where that price is just crashing down lowest common denominator and consumers see that and that's what a lot of consumers have been trained to do you know and so when you see something like that it's not a shocker that they start making these comparisons and then they start passing up on games a lot easier when there's something else that's out there and that's kind of you know that's the curse too of producing as many games that Stern does and having as many themes sometimes you can just cannibalize your own your own themes at times but that's not such a bad place to be in as compared to somebody else that might put out one game every two years because then if you if you don't put out a banger then you're kind of Sol yeah and so yeah and I I just it was interesting seeing for the first time and for since I can remember like it just seemed like the the wind was gone there was no there was no wind behind sails or whatever I don't know what metaphor I'm going for here but everything just seemed deflated before the Stream and even I had like lowered my expectations and everything and then the stream happened the stream happened and I will say my view on this game changed very quickly watching the Stream um so Tom when you turn the stream on what I mean what was the first thing that you noticed when you watched this this stream for like three minutes no I'm just kidding um the the first thing I noticed like yeah like at a game play or like just I mean you you just watched the stream for five minutes and what was like what were your what was your takeaway after the first five minutes of watching the game uh you know it was very fast that's what I was you know assuming the answer was yeah yeah that I it yeah um uh I like the doppelganger Mech the front of him or the back of him which one did you definitely like the back side when that crack is going up to your neck you've got something going on yeah yeah the doppelganger Meg is actually yeah go ahead keep going no but uh and then you know you got uh I mean I didn't notice this in the first five minutes but I I noticed you know there there's definitely a lot more to the premium yeah you know as we do see in a lot of games but it seems like it's more feature packed than the pro which I guess we'll get into later yeah yeah but yeah so speed speed is the main thing that I I was like holy cow this game is so fast and part of it one of the main things is I mean a lot of these shots are coming right back at you and then anything that feeds the um the Habit trails that are coming back to the flippers both of them are going through those locks and they're calling them fast locks and and what that means is the first time you hit a ball up the Habit Trail it'll it'll hold the ball in that fast lock but the very next time you hit a shot that's going to get to that lock as soon as it's registered like if it's a 180 ramp as soon as it hits the top of that ramp or it's coming around another ramp that's going to feed that or it goes to the [ __ ] in the back right the moment that ball is registered by a switch it shoots out a ball from the fast lock so what was blowing me away was you know in the back right there's a buck and there's a few a few shots there's like this Hideout shot and whatnot but like the moment a ball lands in that buck or the saucer that would then be vertical up kick that would be shot up to feed that the moment it lands in that saucer a ball is being spit out of the fast lock in the right so like you have a chance to flip a ball on your right flipper before the first ball you shot is even on a wire form like that it's that instantaneous ball returning to flipper just like the portal lock in Rick and Morty and I think there's another game somebody mentioned another game on another stream but like that is that speed is unlike anything I've seen in a modern game and that alone now all of a sudden we have we actually have something mechanical that it's like oh I need to try that um I don't know Travis what I mean when you saw that is that exciting alarming what I mean so the pinball machine you get excited over ball locks Travis yeah fast ones real fast oh yeah yeah fantastic [Laughter] the pin played exactly how I thought it was going to play um uh mainly because it's a fan layout all fan layouts it's generally designed to get the ball back to the flipper as quickly as possible pretty much and I think when when we saw this and we kind of realized that hey that's where a ball lock is going to be at it was just kind of deciding okay how is that going to interrupt flow and we knew it was going to interrupt flow somehow but how exactly was it going to slow it down yeah or was it going to speed it up so obviously the answer came well it's going to speed it up so I mean it's it's interesting to see um if you really enjoy fast games obviously that's I mean you're probably pretty excited more excited than Tom was to see the doppelganger ass but yeah it's it definitely plays quick um I I think the thing that I was most excited to see during it was just to see how the leveling system worked and to see how that all functioned because I just whenever we watch the trailer and I was talking to you guys that morning when it came out and and I even said I didn't feel like that they talked about that hardly at all or enough no yeah and so and I got a lot of questions from people that morning because they realized that I was obviously watching the the dealer thing and all that and I was just like guys I'll be honest I can't answer the questions I wish I could I wish I I mean I would just BS you and act like I know what I'm talking about but I'm still not clear on exactly what it does and it it took me all day long to kind of just figure it out just by reading the play field kind of getting the the gist of everything because obviously they've been sending you guys skill or skill shot I was sending you guys screenshots of the LCD that it had the uh Speed Run timer yeah I'm like well what's this like they didn't say anything about it so that obviously has to do with something in the game something like that I wish they would have mentioned because I I just feel like a lot of people they didn't get what this game was at the beginning and when I explained out the leveling system to it you could see the light bulb go off yeah and they were just like oh this is this is really cool I didn't realize that it did this I can actually just keep playing game to game and just keep going for as long as possible and even when you watched or you listened to the stern Insider podcast you could tell that that was just a Cornerstone of this game of the speaking of the conception of this game from Brian Eddy and from Dwight Sullivan so I I was just I was a little bit disappointed that that wasn't a main factor that they were pushing at the beginning because it seemed like that the whites like really all in on this and rightfully so because it's Unique so I wish that that would get showcased a little bit more for people to understand because I think if that does get showcased a little bit more that might help so somewhat just because people need to know that hey I can get to this mode or I can achieve this like for instance a lot of people don't even realize this you could do co-op and you still get experience points even if you're not playing as long as you're on the team you can get partial experience points and you can keep building up so you can play like Joel can play with friends and family and one of his friends and one is family he can drag their asses to the finish line to get to play one of the bosses so that's pretty cool that you can access different parts of the game that you may not be good enough to get to and I like that that's something that's accessible for people that are playing but it's just if you don't have somebody telling you hey this is what's in the game there's a lot of people that just don't even realize that they have no idea yeah and I none of us really knew it until we saw that Stern had already uploaded the 31-page rule book and that's when you actually started looking through the rules for like oh wow there's a whole lot more here than anything any picture or teaser trailer is actually mentioned so the two key things and we're going to dive deep into these the two key things that Venom is doing that are completely unique or complete maybe not completely somebody will be offended there'll be some other game that does similar but two things that are very unique to this game are the change State depending on the character that you pick it physically changes the way the game shoots and then the XP system the fact that progression in the game is based off of experience and if we look back on the last two Dwight games if you look at back at Mando and you look back at turtles turtles have the ability to pick your character and depending on the character you picked it actually gave you perks there was no physical change to the game but it did give you either like Michelangelo the outling ball save was lit automatically or Donatello one shot away from a ramp and you're in a multiball as a fan of turtles I really like that because it did force me to play the game differently depending on who I had and then as you level up your characters which is something that is Progressive with Insider connect if I the moment if I was logged in and I leveled up around Raphael to level two he would be level two every time I played the game regardless of what machine I was on home or arcade if I logged in and you can level up your your turtles all the way to level four and that was something that I I actually have done but that was something I had to work at over time leveling up my Turtles um which was one very specific aspect of the game training it wasn't something you were doing as you play like in venom it was one particular mode if you do it and it gives you more perks and it gives you the ability to get way more points and it wasn't easy to do no that's the main thing too it wasn't necessarily accessible to every single player to be able to level up a turtle all the way no and but I did it but you had to use Insider connect to do it and um but Turtles was one of the first never mind it was I mean Godzilla was the first with Insider connect but like there's a lot of turtles games out there that that people don't have an Insider connect kit for and but adding that really added to it and turtles also had Co-op and Co-op that's something that when I've played Turtles with friends and family it's like okay I've already got through three episodes all you have to do is get through one more episode and now collectively we can do team up which is the mini wizard mode so some of the ideas of Dwight's ideas were already there and then you get to Mando and Mando had this whole best car system of the more shots you hit the more money you make and then when you get enough money which you're doing that as you're getting through the game the more best car you're earning now all of a sudden you can hit a scoop and you can buy perks or buy the ability to do things so he already had that system kind of building in so this is not new and Mando also had Co-op man Mando also had an impossible play in monster mode all these other modes these are clearly Dwight things so it doesn't surprise me that Dwight's going in this direction but this XP system the whole idea is the more the shots you hit the more things you do the more XP you get but what I think is crazy or you I don't know in a good or bad way is you can't fight the first guy the first tier of battle you cannot fight the first symbiote unless you have 10 XP and so for level level 10 you have to have level 10 XP that is what really I saw that in the rules and it's like okay level 10. level 10 level 10. so once you get enough that's enough to get to level 10. there we go okay so my question was we when we watched on stream thank you Jeff I was like we're about to see Zach sharp and we're about to see um Jack danger both very good players play this game how hard is it to get to level 10. and just to give you a heads up that's to that's to do the first level of Boss the second level of boss you have to be at level 20 the third level of boss you have to be at level 30. so it was really kind of a how hard is it to get to level 10 if you start at level one so by tens yes yes but that but what I will tell you is good job Tom none of them got to level 10 in their first game maybe maybe Jack did but it's like over a three ball game they had just got enough experience to do the first line of battles which was level level 10. no no no what were the battles oh that's Riot Agony I think age screen flasher there you go okay some of the Symbiotes no screen is the awesomely fast video mode that's what you're thinking yeah but so speed believe it or not I was actually thinking of you guys because the thing is if this is not a mode based game my thought was if they're gonna play tournament mode that means all the everybody's start going to start at level one so when you guys go to play a tournament is it going to like are you even gonna have the ability to get into a battle oh yeah yeah don't don't worry about that Joel we've already got that yeah oh we've all we've got that figured out we already know the exact path to go with that but I I wanna I wanna say this so I know obviously Tom and I are the tournament Players and Joel you're the tournament player too you got 89 for the Cleveland you did awesome you did fantastic just Jeff's kiss inspirational but I want to get this out here though there's a most of the tournament players that are around we don't necessarily just look at just any game and just say okay I I'm only gonna like this if it's good in tournaments I'm only gonna like it if it has balance scoring I'm only gonna like if it does XYZ there's a lot of time well you know what I mean Tom like we've talked about we've talked about this before Tom because we've sat there and we've played that Paragon like just screwing around in the past you know and so not every game has to be just the perfect balance for a tournament is what I'm getting at and so when I look at Venom I don't have that expectation that it's going to be something that we'll see in tournaments nor do I wanted to become something that tries to appease the tournament player what I see in this when I look at the leveling system I see something that's unique to Venom just like you were talking about and I see something that's unique that has the potential to draw in new players has the potential to make pinball a little bit more accessible to people that may be a little bit less skilled and that's kind of what I'm excited about about seeing it and excited for other people about and just because it may not be in tournaments that's perfectly fine I mean if it ends up in turn tournament's cool if not cool too it just what matters the most is is are people going to have fun playing this so what I would love to see just everybody that has anything to do with the rules of Venom is just a completely lean into this leveling system to lean into the XP to see what you can get out of it because it's so much different than what anything else is out there and kind of like Tom alluded to earlier in this podcast that maybe code can really save this game and pull it through and get it to where it needs to be that might be something right there that's that's worthwhile that you might have a fan layout that's pretty commonplace for a lot of people to see but if you have something just totally unique that's totally different that gives you a reason to keep playing the game over and over again it gives you a reason to explore different parts of the game that could be cool like I I see a lot of ways Stern could go with this all right so if they use the inside that are connected and they start doing challenges in a month or in a week what if they did something to where they say something to the extent that if you do this type of mode or you do this Carnage thing in a certain amount of time you get double the XP or this is double XP week just like people do with Call of Duty games or something like that yeah there's a lot of ways that they can do this to get people to want to keep playing that you can't do on any other game right now so that's where that's where the draw is going to come with this I think they need to lean in heavily to that they need to not worry about catering to to Tom and I for tournaments or anything like that and really really focus on catering to that to that consumer or to that person that might buy this game and want to just play it a ton in their basement want to bring in their you know if their wife allows them to play it and she's not faking it yeah there you go that would be perfect she enjoyed the mode okay it's uh yes I mean you obviously look at this as a tournament with a tournament type view as well so when you're watching these streams and you're watching what they were doing I don't know do was that a thing to you as well like okay how how would a tournament player if we're all gonna start at one does that mean we're just I don't like I feel like it's gonna be a little bit of a grind to get to the first not mode but like battle and so is it gonna be pretty common at District 82 ball one and ball two on Venom every single time let's see if they can get to ten you know let's see if they can get to 10 uh level 10 before they can open things up or no did you not have that type of no uh just multiple all day just do the thing just do the thing it's very much a do the thing pin yeah I because you can either do Carnage multiball at the very beginning grind it out grind out your levels and just go from there or you could get very creative in terms of how you treat your locks because like we were talking about earlier on the text any character you pick you have both locks are lit but you can take one of them unless you're Eddie Brock in which you could take two of them and you light another lock by just hitting a two-way combo and then for each successive lock it's it's an additional combo so when you really break it down it's really not that many shots that you got to do in order to get into multiball I think if you watch Brian Eddy play the very first stream I think it's either on the you have like 2 million yeah on the premium or Pro he had well he had like he had two locks almost instantly yeah yeah and you can start that Mayhem multiball with three logs so I don't think it's I don't think it's going to be difficult for people to get to level 10 because you need that to be accessible so you kind of just dangle that carrot that most players won't get their own ball one but you want to see a lot of players be able to get there before the end of the game and you certainly want to have a hundred percent of the players be able to get there within six balls you want to try to get that close to it so I don't see this being just impossible where somebody is going to play for five straight games and be locked out of playing those levels which you I just realized like if somebody steps up to venom for the first time and they're flipping around and then they they drain all three balls and they look up and they're like oh I'm at seven my I'm at level seven like I'm only three levels away from getting to this you know it's almost even more incentivizing to put money in let's go again so I can get to 10. and what is cool about this and and to be this is full disclosure I'm really excited about this XP system because it fits me my demographic we know you are Jewel perfectly I I mean as somebody I am super grateful for not wearing any pants right now for those watching I I have the ability I I stream for flipping out and I'm super grateful that they let me borrow games and and to to have a game most the time it's like the first few times I stream it I'm just trying to find shots and it's just you know kind of a grinder like um I just feel like I'm getting beat up and sure I'm I'm gaining experience I'm finding points but like this is a whole nother level of this where it's just like I true really am gaining experience so that over the course of the few months that I have this game this is one of those like I think I might actually be able to get to know I hope I can get to know over the course of three months of playing this in the evenings or streaming yeah you'll get the knowledge yes yeah you'll get to know in one night yeah you will do you play this game for two or three hours at a time okay you you will get there I mean it's not so it's one of those things that it may be two or three hours is not a not a maybe you need more time than that but I think this game is just totally designed to get people over that hump okay because they want they want people to experience those things and that's what makes us so unique that before a lot of people have never played a wizard mode so they never got to experience it and then you see the evolution of it that Stern started getting it towards the start button where it become a challenge and that's cool but the element that was missing was kind of that I don't know how to describe it I guess that sense of accomplishment sure player to feel like that they're achieving it in game as opposed to just hitting the start button and being immediately in it so there could be something to that you know I I know that one of the first times I ever achieved a wizard mode on my own during a game it was exciting it was fun it was it was different so the idea that everybody can kind of get that feeling and have the chance to get that feeling I think that's pretty cool I I can't wait for that no I mean I agree but getting to search yes yes you're good how's that there are wizard modes there are wizard modes that I've hit or even I mean I'm super grateful that a lot of modern games have even mini wizard modes or like that halfway point or something to shoot for something to progress to like an end game event yeah yeah but I've been trying to like I've almost been thinking of like okay how would this XP system work in let's say Godzilla like how crazy would it be I mean I've I've obviously to like Planet X yes like every time but what I'm thinking is like I can get obviously you you know you only have to hit two ramps and you're doing a level one monster piece of cake I've gotten to the point where I've getting you know gotten to level two monsters but past that like I've never made it to Planet X so if there was an XP type system with Godzilla how weird would that be that the the next game that you start it's like oh I already have three level one defeated I'm going straight to level two and then yeah you chip away at that and boom now I'm in Planet it's like would that would that add to the experience of Godzilla to have an option like that or would it take away from it because it's so easy to get to those first few levels I don't know I yeah I'm not sure on that it's it depends on the player I think yeah it's it's an interesting concept that the thought of them and I haven't even thought about this Joel so you bring up a good point of stern implementing something like this across the board in the future if they did something like that retroactively through IC through updates that said hey you can earn experience points behind that would be something that would be incredibly unique but at the same time I'm not sure if that would match up with with people's creative choices that they made in making the rule set yeah and trying to you know so I don't know exactly how that would work but that is that is interesting I don't think that this will be the last time that we see something like this sure I I think that it's again anything you can do that's accessible to the pinball people or to anybody or everybody in pinball I think it's a good thing well yeah I'm not sure I'm not sure if creatively if people would want that in their game retroactively like I don't know if Keith elwin would want that I don't know if like George Gomez would want that it's just or even Jack danger it's just it's hard to tell it's definitely not something where you just flip a switch like you it's very clear the the difficulty level that they've put in venom is because they are actually building the code based off of people grinding away at this game over time and but if you think about it in a lot of these modern games they are starting to add you know even Turtles had the ability that I can go straight to what is it the final showdown or whatever like the the the after you beat Eight Episodes that's where you'd get to but I have the ability to just skip right to it well if instead of being able to skip right to it what if they just start adding the ability that you can't skip right to it but you can slowly grind away and because in the XP and Venom the higher level you get it makes everything easier so every time you get into battles you're more powerful your shots mean more so it's if that was the thing where it's like okay Turtles you can't ever skip to it but now next time you start an episode it's going to take one less shot because you've been like so it's almost like a mark like a book marker in the game like a yeah bookmark kind of like a checkpoint yeah yeah you you have the checkpoint or you even just the fact that you're more experienced here it's like okay I know I've beat this episode or this monster or this that or Foo Fighters I've done this song before so because you're now a more experienced player it's less shots to do it again that way it slow it kind of helps you out to slowly progress through the game more and more so it's funny I have it in my head because you keep talking about turtles Joel and have you guys ever seen that episode Make Love Not Warcraft from South Park uh I probably have I have I have it in my head if listeners out there remember this this is like the mid 2000s maybe like 2006 2007 episode when they needed to level up their characters to get to this main boss guy that was like just this huge dude that had glitched out the game and he had like this Ultra powerful character is killing everybody and so they all just started grinding away on killing these warthogs Non-Stop and they had all the XP mapped out now I just have Joel pictured doing something like that he's just gonna go left orbit into the pots all day long and just bathroom yeah exactly just grind out the XP it this is I mean I think this is incredibly creative because this is just one aspect of something that's new to Venom and I like this is something I'm excited for and they I've already said it's not in the game yet but they already have said um that they're gonna add an option where you can log into Insider connect but you can choose almost like continue or start over like they're gonna give the player the ability to do I want to play this game with my previously earned experience points or do I want to play this game like it's a fresh start and that's where the speed run comes into the speed run timer is counting from the very first ball you plunge all the way until you beat Knoll so that's something that's cool I think that's very clever because then it's going to be like I've actually I actually did it or even if it it'll be interesting if somebody will be like have you ever beat Nolan in one one game like one game that'll be really impressive to do but if people are like no it took me you know it took me 15 games but I was able to beat Knoll start to finish it only took me 35 minutes or something like yeah whatever I wish I wish pinball games would do that more I know Iron Maiden had I think Hallowed be thy name had a Time Champion or something like that how quickly you got through it and I wish more games would have that yeah Lord of the Rings like destroy the Rings yeah exactly and that's that's something that's cool and that's a Nuance right there that it changes the game where it's not so much about how many points can I get or what multiplier can I do this it's how quickly can I skillfully get through this mode and you know and a lot of that's built into games already anyways like you get a Time bonus on Godzilla you get a Time bonus on Foo Fighters with the final shot so all this stuff is in there already what I would like to know is okay how fast did I get done with LA on Foo Fighters or how fast did I defeat megalon stuff like that would be exciting and it would change things around to where it would give you reason to kind of explore different parts of the game to where it's you you're playing it in such a way that it may not have anything to do with score in general and something like that speed running that's it's something that some of us do like off stream and off everything that we say hey we beat the game in this amount of time or we we beat this mode in this amount of time how quickly you think you can do it I mean we were talking about that with Foo Fighters Tom when we were talking about using the uh the tractor beam and seeing if we could Speed Run any of the modes because we had shots you know we had shots spotted already then yeah and so stuff like that it's silly stuff that we would not do in a tournament necessarily but you know what at home with friends with family with Joel watching yeah it makes pinball fun I know TNA TNA tracks that TNA tracks uh there's a speed run for each reactor yeah so that's awesome yeah the moment you start a reactor to defeating it so it's a whole nother scoreboard but I mean Tom what do you think do you think adding this does do you think this do you think I think no do you think having this type of system yeah adds longevity to having this game in your house or almost takes away longevity yeah I think I think it would definitely add longevity but if this if the XP system is almost guaranteeing that if you put in enough time you're going to be able to see the whole game well does because some people say like yeah the moment I see the final wizard mode like that's when I'm turned off by the game and I don't want to play anymore but if this game is almost a guarantee that almost anybody can get to that point does that mean there's going to be a lot more like hey it took me five months but I finally do it again but faster [ __ ] like I would say I am very excited because they have three characters locked behind beating Knoll right so to give you a reason to keep going yeah to me it's like okay if Zach's gonna let me borrow this game for let's say three months that means I have three months to beat this game three times because I'm at this game I have to have all three characters unlocked before I leave my house like that's a goal in my mind and the thing is I think it's actually achievable compared to some other games where it's like am I ever gonna see the final wizard mode of this game no even if I even if I played every single night for three months by the time it's gone I'm not gonna see it so I don't know this is what excites me but I I think it's a good idea I mean it's probably one of the best features of the game I think is that whole level up system oh it's it's a thousand percent the best feature to the game I believe I believe it is fully that's why I've been absolutely floored that this hasn't been leaned into more in terms of how they're pushing the product out what I wish Stern would do I wish that they would put out Dan heads up in the uh Insider connect yeah well I what I wish they would do is put out maybe like three to five minute video fully explaining the leveling system go ahead and let Dwight go Hog Wild explaining it because you can edit it down anyways and get it concise but you know I I think something like that is just so unique that I wish people would kind of understand it a little bit more I I think that some people have heard that oh there's no true modes in it or no no bass modes because there's just many modes so that's that's kind of confused some people in terms of the overall messaging and I know I've heard reports back from people that that played a Comic Con that they went into the game not knowing anything and then they were still kind of confused exactly what they were seeing compared to a Godzilla or a Deadpool or something that it's very clear yeah on what's going on so this type of game because you do get the progression if you're not aware that there's a leveling system and there probably is a lot of people that aren't aware that play it because that requires you to actually read the roll card or look at the LCD screen or log in or log in yeah exactly if they don't realize that that's there it's just yeah then it's an uphill battle from there so I think the major fight that's up ahead or Stern or all of us dealers for you know anything in the industry that wants to push this game it's letting people know how that leveling system works and why that's beneficial to them as a player and where that they can get the value out of that well I think it was cool because Jack danger streamed it on Wednesday they streamed a premium and I think by the end of the stream he had gotten to not know but the the dragon I don't I don't know grindel grindel grindel so he had gotten to him which you have to have 20 you have to be at level 20. so he I think he ended the stream you know for uh when he when they got in the mode yeah yeah um so that mode which a lot of that I know that a lot of this can be I don't know the this the code I think is like point eight or something point eight something right now so they're gonna continue to to add you know um I would say the choreography or just the I I would assume more call outs more lighting more oh yeah that's what we were kind of talking about too yeah that's that that is the one thing that I really hope to see I want to see when you get into those boss battles that it's more of an event more of a battle yeah right yeah and that's what we talked about these are these are I am the ramp yeah these are essentially in-game events yes so when I think of it in terms of when I'm playing golden ring for instance right and I come across a boss it's an event they you know the the way that they show it the camera angles the everything the movements and so that's what I want to see out of this if I'm going to fight null I want to be a massive yeah yeah it feels it's kind of like um scared stiff when you get to the final scared stiff mode I forget what it's called off my head or you start multiball on Adam's Family something like that to where the choreography just goes nuts flippers go nuts it goes in and out plenty of Things animations on the screen everything and it doesn't just do that for five to six seconds yeah I'm talking 15 20 seconds to where you stop you've grind it all that way you've earned it and this is your moment to fight this battle well that's what I want to see luckily they have Dwight doing this right I mean do I that's what Dwight's known for right exactly like it's got to be coming it's like yeah that's something that he is known for and I and I definitely think there are there have been games that I've played like I know there are moments in stranger things that just suck you in when you're battling whether it's a demogorg or total isolation mode or something everything changes and it you know it just you're you get more amped up for those moments um there's plenty of games I mean Godzilla has different monsters where it's like okay it's time to time to buckle up and and fight this uh so I I definitely think that will get there and will grow and improve even more but it was what I was saying with Jack is like he finishes the first night in high 20s and I was like excited to see him the next day of like well I know he's at least 20 something so it's like by the time he streamed that I think he was in the high 30s so it's like okay we're gonna see Noel on the stream but he didn't beat Noel I mean he fought him multiple times and Jack's a really good player so it's like sure you could get to him at 30 but good luck beating him at 30. um it's probably going to take you more for that and there's been people that have posted on pinside that had chances to play it um when they're at Comic-Con and I think somebody posted a picture where his XP was at 92. 92. now remember XP resets when you when you defeat Knoll so I think that tells you something about this guy's skill level but it's clear that this guy put a lot of time on the game kept playing yeah and so but he's gotten to that point where now I would assume he has it's it's way easier for him or should be way easier for him to beat Knoll um than anybody else so but and then Dwight did mention there is a there is an actual like final final wizard mode where you have to beat all the Symbiotes and do multiballs and Grendel and Noel multiball you have to do all of it so there is still something for that that Seeker but I don't know overall code like it I'm glad to hear you two even as tournament Players still see the potential of this code or are excited about this code and I know from a tournament strategy like you guys were looking at multipliers and the bell the bell tower is a whole thing there where it's like you could get 10x play field or something like there's clearly a thing seven seven there's clearly a thing that you guys are gonna lean into from a tournament strategy there's a there's a very specific road map to a lot of points and we we noticed it premium yeah well to me on the first stream because uh I forget the guy's name but it's one of the sternum Nick one of the stern employees he ended up with like over 2 billion points he went I'm actually watching her right now yeah he legitimately went from 45 million yeah and so this is what happens it was it was actually like 29 million yeah he was well I think he was at was he at 29 or 45 when he started it doesn't matter either way when he starts a six ball multiball when he came out of it he had 1.9 billion yeah and then that's when they found out Jack accidentally forgot how to count and put in too many balls into the to the pin yeah it's okay he's been a busy man but yeah it's that just goes to show you it's the game has a very specific way that you could go about blow it up and one of the things that we haven't touched based on yet Joel when we were talking about the minor villains or the minor bosses here is that when you start your Mayhem multiball depending on which side you're on you're actually going to have one of the bosses available right there and they're going to be playing in the background and that's kind of what happened he had both I think he had all of them but he had defeated Riot and then Agony and I think even the agony final shot was 320 million or something just redonkulous so yeah it's it's kind of they even said she can stack the two multi balls so you had both multiples and he was doing two battles all at the same time and I think he was only at 2x Playfield during that time too I don't remember him getting any higher than that maybe he did I don't know I can't think of it all the top of my head but I know that the jackpots were coming quick and just being able to play the bosses just in the background I think that there's a lot of a lot of value there too but yeah that's where it makes it a very if you are out for score as of right now it makes it a very multiball-centric game and it has to be because you do the mini Combos and the whole purpose of doing the mini combos is to fill up your grid yep and then once you start doing that and you do so many combos that's what lights a lock and nearly every single shot out there leads to a lock somewhat they wouldn't have those mini Pez dispensers on both sides without that being an important part of the game and I think that they've kind of backed themselves into a corner with that in terms of design and what they can do with the code just because that's it's on the play field so I don't see how you can deviate from that and I and I say back themselves into a corner you know as if it's a bad thing that's just the the creative choice that they made so I don't see it going any direction because you're not all of a sudden going to say oh we're putting in actual modes at the beginning so where you get points based off those modes I think this game is very much going to stay on the path that it's going so if you are out for points it's multiball multiball multiball which which is different because Joel you just had a podcast with Mr elwin himself and what did he say about multiple in school yeah don't put your points in multiball make sure all your points are in single ball play yeah yep so it's just different philosophies you know and that and that's perfectly fine it doesn't mean that you can't score points in this game on single ball it just it just means that the game is very multiball Centric and when you gotta grind through and get XP to get to the next boss well obviously having more balls to do that and filling up that grid to where you get additional XP and getting I think it's on the it's either the right side or left side you get 2x XP also by starting that side so yeah being able to pull 4X experience and keep grinding through the game that's that's you're going to want to do that yeah yeah well yeah so I I was I was to see it just seems like this code in general um because there have been other games um like you know no offense raid a but like Rush that people it's like Rush seems like that code is so focused on really high-end players or tournament Players and giving all this complexity to different strategies in a way that you can attack that code versus a novel novice steps up and they're like what I don't you know you don't it's not there but it's very much risk reward I just wanted to say rush to get Tom to no but well Russia rush is very much I I think I made a mistake not making the Tom Graf Edition that's right no just the the newer code the way they handled the records where oh yeah when they when they killed off the the Boost like boosting it yeah yeah that really that was a drag for me because I really enjoyed I think risk reward with that yeah I think as a like a tournament setting that would have been fine but as far as even Travis camera no way your camera has a code update right now no I'm saying my camera needs a code update oh okay but that was one of the best parts of the game was trying to boost up but then but then if you drain and now now you you already hit those shots so now you can't hit those shots right and then you lose all your Boost as well yeah so it's like it's like a double yeah yeah in the middle of the night and Monica's driving 90 miles an hour down the highway that's and Timmy's goal they're like how do we give the player this sensation no what I'm saying though is like you have some games like that and I just think it's very clear that the whole design team got behind this mentality of let's really lean into and you guys are asking for them to do it even more let's really lean into this being a game that can that really opens up from a code standpoint the more you play it and the more experience you get you're going to be able to see more of the game and get further in the game and you know it's gonna make things easier for you the more you play it because of your experience points and your leveling system this is brand new and it's something that I know I'm excited about um and nobody's done this before so it's going to be very interesting to see if this actually brings more replayability into a game or if it's like owners after owning the game for X number of months are flipping them they're like yep I've seen it all because I've gotten you know I've unlocked all my care I don't know this is a risk that they're taking but I'm excited that they're taking it right that makes sense and one of the cool Parts about that they used to do this with Call of Duty and they might still do it I don't know it used to be when the game came out it was the race to prestige so the you wanted to be the first one everybody streamed on Twitch and you want to be the first one to get through all your levels and then Prestige up to show you now I gotta get a game thanks so I wish in a way I wish that there was the ability to have some type of prestige level instead of your level system just go all the way back to one that just after you beat them like what I I don't know what that would entail code wise or anything but I wish that there was just some way to to be able to get to a certain level like even after you beat Knoll you just keep going up and then you prestige I think you go and then you go to the next thing the bragging thing is the fact that you've unlocked the characters you know that's the thing where it's like oh if you have all three characters unlocked Hulk Captain America and Wolverine like they've beat this game three times you know that's uh and this is something to impress all the ladies too I've unlocked three but what I think is interesting is what if they make it harder so after you unlock your first one what if the rate at which you get XP is a little less the second go around because the game knows it then the game knows you've already beaten the game once yeah so let's make unlocking that second character a little harder and that's that's kind of what I was alluding to I I wish I I don't know maybe this is something I'd say in it and somebody just crushed it by unlocking all three but yeah if they had some type of system in there there that was similar to a Prestige system sure where once you unlocked a character because obviously unlocking one of those characters I think you actually have access to two are the vertical grid so yep the character is a little bit more powerful as well their perks and everything which rightfully so they're they're awesome characters so yeah I wouldn't mind seeing something like that yeah so I don't know I mean we just talked about code we've just talked about a games code for the last I don't know it was like 30 or 40 minutes and that's something that I have not seen a game and this is only off of two streams that we've seen right and discussions luckily you know like with flipping out with friends that I've done Dwight's been in chat so he's answered a bunch of questions write A's been in chat like this is just something so new um and I I can't wait to try it I can't wait to try it and I'm very curious to see how this unfolds um the other thing that we were talking about that's unique to this game is the change state um and that to me so what the pro the premium in Le with the premium and Le there are multiple shots in the game the main Center ramp has this kind of 180 ramp that will go up or it becomes a horseshoe and then there's a thing on the right side where another shot either then becomes a horseshoe or it feeds um a buck or it goes around to the left orbit all depending on which of the four characters you pick and like if you pick the Flash Thompson character the way that that middle ramp moves it now becomes like a little kind of hole that it kind of stops the ball in knows what the post that comes up real quick yeah and then releases back what we were like well is that a ball lock and Dwight and Chad was like no what that if you hit that shot that counts as a bell tower shot so one of the perks is is it's a wider belt the bell tower well yeah so now that shot counts as a bell tower shot and the whole reason the post pops up is to just slow the ball down for a second because there's nothing else there's very little on this game that slows the ball down so then let's let's put your thinking cap on Joel okay when would you want to use that character then knowing that that Bell shot is bigger now I would assume in a tournament because it's of course but when would you want to use that character later on right because if you can if you've done X Y and Z and then you know that's how you ramp up your your what is it Playfield multiplier because you can change characters so that's really another like turtles you pick a turtle you're locked in with that Turtle the whole game this is completely different you you have this Grid at the bottom and you have three dots or kind of your path but it's like if I get my three dots knocked out with Gwen then you hit a shot and boom now I have an option to change character now I can start working on my path with this or that so this progression through the game and the way it attacks your grid and points is really unique um so I was excited about this this another thing I know they say their whole change of character change your host change your game that's their like motto but it really didn't show like it is such a different game depending on which character you pick because the shot layouts actually change on a premium in Le Unfortunately they don't change on a pro you change the host and you change the rules change your strategy yeah it's I I you know this is once this sounds so lame and so like first world problems but I this is one of those games where I'm I'm a tad disappointed that the pro is the game that I'm gonna be able to stream and tomorrow for a few months so it sounds so bad yeah if anybody wants to loan me a Venom Pro I will stream the crap out yeah do you hear Do you hear that Tom that's the sound of about 3 000 people rolling their eyes right yeah they just stopped the podcast right in triple drain tell it tell me to suck it up no you have somebody you have somebody on the jog right now just ripped out their airpods just threw it on the ground I mean okay so when I when I saw the reveal for Godzilla and it was like okay I'm getting the pro it's like man I really want like that Mech though that building Mech like I was dying to experience that or the bridge like there were stuff in there that I knew I was missing but then there's been other games where it's like the foo Pro I was like this game still feels like Foo Fighters like this doesn't feel that big even James Bond Pro it's like okay so I'm missing you know Bond on a wand no big deal but this game it's not like doppelganger I think that Mech is cool and that hurry up will be a fun unique hurry up sure I'm missing that but what I'm missing is like this game changing physically changing between characters and how that affects your decision making or like that is so cool that is so very cool um so I don't know thoughts on like thoughts on that is that 100 I think premium's the way to go if you're gonna have it in your house yeah yeah and you you hit the nail on the head with that because there's there's a lot of reports coming out of Comic-Con again people that played the pro and they they're all saying that they felt very underwhelmed by it and they're citing that very reason that it was just not they couldn't really compare it to the premium because it was missing all those different shots it wasn't just missing the mech you're basically missing changing the game in four different ways or maybe even eight different ways if you want to call it two shots changing at the same time so yeah that's that's a big difference and gosh I I heard somebody and it's not just one person I've heard this at least three or four times people legitimately comparing the pro to one of the stern pins the home pins yeah yeah and I was like man that's just I don't know I think oh man there's seven Grand yeah exactly and so I was just kind of like uh maybe that's a little too far but I get it I get the sentiment that they're they're wanting to see more in it for what the price that it's at but at the same time it's like okay if you're interested in being a consumer well then obviously the pro is not going to be for you it's save up a little bit more if you can and eventually get a premium whenever it's financially feasible but yeah if if I want to get one it would definitely be premium that to me is I think this is actually a really good test though of the game and its code because I know I thought that way about Godzilla but then I found I actually loved Godzilla like playing the pro so when by the time Godzilla Pro left I was like I had such a blast with that game and then having a chance go into an arcade or going to a show and playing the premium I was like this is a step up like I took a game that I already loved and it just got better so if this if this Venom Pro ends up leaving my house after a few months and I loved it then I have no doubt the stuff they've added in the premium will only take it that much further um so it's gonna be a good test of how how how much I enjoy that code in the XP system and it's going to be so fast like it's gonna be it's such a fast even faster game without some of the some of the mechs in there so I don't know I'm excited but I think this is super unique um doppelganger the only thing besides the pathways is that 180 ramp in the middle is not there right I know that and then the the little up down ramp on the right side which also changes the state that's not so basically like and then doppelganger except for the pathways double yeah and I think even the artwork's even different that's micro because of that so yeah that's that's that's a lot to be honest with you and it's funny that the Crux of this that we were talking about before that there's a lot of people the reason why they're not getting the Le they're citing that they don't feel like the values there for the money that's being charged but then at the same time it's like you hear the people talking about the pro well the pro doesn't have anything in it compared to the premium so it's funny how you see this massive Gulf in between OTS of the game and everything what about um so the Carnage Mech we haven't talked about that the Carnage Captain ball What If instead of them having the car because I think the the ball locks the fast locks I'm just I'm pretty confident those would have those have to be in all the models based off of the way the game's designed or coded I mean I don't know how that because of the way you you have to lock balls to start a multi like I think taking those out would have been a drastic change to the way the game is is structured but like what if instead of the Carnage Mech what if they would have taken that out of the pro and put the doppelganger Mech in instead you know like in a perfect world you take that out and you put the 180 ramp or some of the ball pass what would you take out I'm sorry Carnage Mech if you took out the Carnage Mech and then that allowed you to either put in the doppelganger Mech or maybe I don't know cost wise maybe then it would make sense to put in the game State like so then it's like well at least put the game saying stuff in the game but don't give me the the toy like the Carnage toy or the doppelganger toy that would be that would be preferable on the pro but it's not I you know we're not the ones adding it all up I I would rather lost the ball locks and and kept the Carnage interesting Mac and put in the doppelganger in there I would have been fine with that I would have been fine without the ball locks and just keep the physical mix of everything else interesting all right yeah and that's something that we'll have to play because I know like Dwight and chat has said like the fast locks every game just seems slow now like he loves the fast locks like he loves what that brings to the game there's one concerning thing with the fast locks where because it kicks out a ball the moment it senses like if you land in the scoop so that scoop on the right side that ball will never come back out at you if you hit the scoop that ball is going down into a Subway and it gets in the buck and it goes up every time 100 of the time it will never launch back out at you so if the ball goes into the scoop it detects that immediately shoots out another ball that's not a big deal but the left ramp I've seen it twice now on stream where the left 180 ramp the moment that opto's triggered on that ramp it's spitting out a ball but I saw it twice where that ball barely got to that opto but didn't finish the ramp so it triggered the opto and now the ball is coming back down the ramp but the fast lock is already spit out a ball so now you have a two ball multiball when it's supposed to only be one let's go so me asking the tournament Players is that okay or do you have to trap up because that's a problem that's a problem got the Trap up because that's a problem but it'd be cool if somehow they could just code it in and be like oh yep that's the back door way to get a two-ball multiball going yeah you're supposed to trap up let it all go so is that call over a TD is that something where if that becomes such a problem would there be a chance you'd have to go to like virtual locks and you basically turn the fast lock system off if it assuming it's possible in the software yeah I mean most tournaments you see virtual locks you put in many ways oh wow yeah well that'll be interesting but um very interesting that's that's why I basically said I could deal with do without the locks but put in the doppelganger in car okay it's odd too when it comes to physical locks the only time that I've really cared about physical locks is on Godzilla so you know in the building and seeing it just go up and down because I think that workout in Texas that worked really well for you yeah I know Ella knows me a beer because of that Colin owes me something too and Josh shows me something else too for allowing that to happen as well yeah it's everybody else's fault but mine yeah I still like the mech though it's just I don't know there's just something about so this is an interesting topic when we talk about ball locks because we might as well just go this direction because we're actually still pretty early in our podcast guys like look at Groot for instance you know there's a lot of people that prefer it to be virtual there's a lot of people that like seeing it go in the mouth yeah right so you what do you prefer Joel you like seeing groups why not that that Mech is so great but I did again I'm not playing in a tournament and that that is something I had a Guardians and that was something that my friends and family damn it you know I'm just gonna keep rolling I'm gonna keep rolling with it but my friends and family that Mech is so great that that Mech is so great and then there's later on I forget which which which mode it is but then all of a sudden his mouth is like you have to shoot it when his mouth is open because it goes up and down terrible Cherry Bomb it's so great it's such a good Mac I was finally so trying to be serious and engage Joel and then he's so surprised that Tom swings and hits the Dinger I was just just waiting for the conversation of ball locks to come up yeah you don't hear this on any other podcast all in on the group all locked and it it is sad to me when it's when I see it turned off but I get it see I I like playing with it without it being on at home for the very reason that you talk about with cherry bomb because it is maddening when you get to the point where you have a Super Jackpot lit and then you just keep bricking it off the mouth that's over get good you know over yeah and then have you ever had group like tournaments yeah just clamp down on the ball and it doesn't move no yes every time yeah sorry well yeah I need to take the pinball lessons with Joel then to figure my [ __ ] out Travis is complaining because the game's too hard so let me turn off the lock well what about Godfathers Godfather have any physical locks on it I mean no I mean the compactor the compound yeah I know something like that that's cool to see right I love physical ball locks if they can make it do something cool doesn't like him I I could do without him I they're problems sometimes yeah what about TNA what if TNA was a virtual law yeah but you can you can lock the ball and then like you know hear that Mr Denise should have made virtual locks for TNA you heard Tom Graf wants you to have virtual locks on TNA you're telling me lock in not every game not every game locking the ball up on the couch locking the ball on the couch and and Simpsons is so great yeah virtual but it sucks when like the ball gets stuck up there oh yeah no doubt it does I just think that it's kind of a lost art too to have a cool block yeah for the ball that's why I was excited to see the way Godzilla is and I don't know maybe maybe a game that's great attack from Mars Medieval Madness they don't have physical ball locks but they do have dirty pool which is kind of like yeah but that's nice dirty pool for those who don't know it's kind of like it's kind of ish when the target is so an attack from ours when the target comes down um it's supposed to stay down the visor the is it called a visor I know it's visor in like um what is it three three Bank we'll just call it the three base stand-up Target why can I not think of the freaking robot where you lock the eyes oh it's an older jackpot I know what he's talking about I just I just want him robot I know but that's the visor because it is an actual Vibe it looks cool tell you something about jackpot [ __ ] that game that came at District 82. it screwed me more times that's pretty great you shoot it perfect and it doesn't go in there [ __ ] that game I'm leaving bye what other games have physical logs let's go with this I want to know like we just we just came up with some good ones well unfortunately it's not a good one to bring up because um uh stranger things has a physical ball lock okay we're not counting that one nope forget that but most people the magnetic lock in the premium Echo ball lock my ass it doesn't have one on this Pro on the I'm talking about premium it has Magnus Magna lock or whatever in the back that most people turn off because it doesn't work and look at Iron Maiden how many people have problems with the mummy lock oh you're talking about the sarcophagus yeah yeah like a ton of people have issues with that lock Ed when it works I mean when it works that's the thing it has to work the bond one isn't as cool it just kind of goes and just yeah I could stop I could deal with yeah maybe if it would have loaded into the rocket and then the rocket like shoots it back out at you or maybe if the ball's just like came up Top of the Rock and just kind of plopped down if I can save two grand I don't need the lock it's crazy to me I love the physical body if that's the only thing in the game that you're giving me on a premium I don't need it interesting I don't know the only thing okay it's so weird hearing this from a guy with a line of Ellie's behind you just a line of these behind you but but a man does have a point because I can tell you right now stranger things what type of stranger things do you have Tom I have the pro he has a pro what Iron Maiden do you have I have the pro he's a man of principle right there there you go um yeah most of my if I uh Deadpool I have the physical ball lock turned off in the katana yeah why why would does that does that like struggle I don't keep the good times but it keeps the game it keeps the flow going I did the same thing with Avengers I turned off the subway Lots here's a big surprise Joel I like flow he likes speed so if you like if you like fast games this is it sounds like Venom might be your game time [Laughter] they're launching the ball at you um someone wants Venom to pop out of the glass and just punch him right in the face again why why not just have the ball return to your flipper I mean it's because it could launcher fast enough I mean it has to like go down into the lock and then shoot it I don't know I it looks crazy I have to play it and I mean the only thing that I worry about with that is casuals just getting absolutely destroyed destroyed by that yeah not expecting that because it kind of reminds me of nearly a uh just like Halloween was to where with the elevators yeah it would just come out of nowhere and you're like what the heck just happened you know so I don't know maybe it's just something that just happens once they adjust to it quick I don't know maybe put a put some sort of ball save for the initial one but you're right if they're if you're gonna hit if a novice hits that scoop in the back right all the way back there and they see the ball disappear the last thing they're expecting is a ball down by your flipper to launch out right to your flipper yeah they're gonna be like oh yeah no the ball is up there where'd it go like I don't know yeah they're not gonna track it so here's a okay here's a thought or statement that I think is is very interesting everybody um what are we going to talk about well we're still on Venom yes um let's go when the pictures came out there were multiple I heard from multiple people that said this game could have been a P3 module and we've talked about P3 a lot and there's a lot odd or bad well that's the thing there's a lot a lot of people who are happy there's a lot of people that are like why would I own a P3 when only the back third of the game is what's changing right and that's what people are like I don't want a game that all the mechs all the everything is just in the back third they just think it's a waste of space right so you look at this game all the shots are in the back third all of them so my my thought was I think this is a big win for P3 because here's a huge major manufacturer that just did a layout that all so many people have hated on P3 for having this type of layout so if there's a chance that people are like that game's a blast that game shot great that came this yada yada yada yada I just think there's going to be a lot of P3 people that are like wait did you like Venom yeah then why wouldn't you like my P3 oh oh Travis Scott what is the one thing we've been talking about with Venom right now no no no speed in terms of how Venom's been I don't know sailing oh poorly okay so yeah I I mean I I don't know I I so I can say this obviously we've talked about P3 in the past and I think it's cool to have mechs that move yes I think it's interesting I I'm definitely not of the mindset that oh that just means the game's gonna break more or whatever you know it's it's pinball everything breaks it doesn't matter if you have a pro or whatever the thing that I'm just that I'm most concerned about with it is just the fact that just that people look at it and they think of it just as being some simple the Simplicity of it and that's what a fan layout essentially is so at least there's something going on with it that's a little bit different but at the same time there's a lot of people that aren't necessarily on board with What P3 does in terms of the modules and everything and the mix that move so naturally I don't know if I expect those people to all of a sudden be like oh yeah I love the fact that these mechs move everywhere back and forth so a lot of it just depends on how you're going to implement it you know and one of the great things about P3 compared to what we're seeing right here is the fact that you do still have parts of the play field pop-up as well so that's something that's a little bit different the wall of scoops and not to mention the entire screen yeah yeah you know changing and displaying I just think if there's I think if there's people that come out of playing Venom and they're like I really like the way that game shoots I just I think that actually makes P3 look really good because I think there are people that have discredited a P3 because of the back third so you think of people come through and they're like oh I like the the the uh design that Brian Eddy did that I'm gonna like a P3 all of a sudden well I just no I think it's if if they if you can actually have that type if you can have fun on that type of layout I think is that what you're saying yeah I think if you can have fun if you if people walk away and they're like I had a great time with that I just think there are a lot of people that have discredited a P3 before they've even played it because they think it's like oh it's wide open all the shots are in the back I don't I don't know I I mean I know like Weird Al had a lot of diverters had a lot of diverter godfather has a ton of diverters in it I mean having diverters in your layout is not new what's new is the fact that it's changing based on yours The Godfather is also a very much Dynamic layout too yeah this is not all over the place yeah yeah there's a lot to do on the sides it's not just line everything up in the same area and just shoot shoot shoot so yeah I don't know it's just you want to know something Joel I I would love to Tom I am more excited to get Pulp Fiction well yeah then then Venom and but you're not getting Venom I know yeah but so you're more excited about us he's more excited about that Playfield with no display and that's that that excites you more than Venom that's what I'm hearing yes okay okay yeah that's fine yeah four or five displays yeah but no like scream you know what I'm saying no I don't know what you're saying I know what you're saying I don't blame you I shouldn't have a video mode like scream no does Pulp Fiction get easier the more you play it Tom do you get experience every single time you play or no it just kicks you in the nuts and says play and if you want I did text Josh and say you need to like totally change your whole rule set now buddy experience in it Well here here's my honesty I'm I am I would I think I'm genuinely more excited to play this pin than the last few and it's nothing against the other ones it just this seems like such a new experience um or a new thing like it's more exciting than Godzilla no I said the last few oh that's a few so it's more exciting I would say this I was more excited Godfather more exciting than Foo more excited than Bond um because of the theme though this is entirely because of like just the overall playing experience like okay I see the stream and it's like okay is there something there like what's gonna draw me in here and I can tell you right now like I'm I I look forward to like grinding away on this game because I feel like the way Dwight's dangling this carrot I'm all in like I I want to play this game and earn my characters and earn you know like this that is I'm finding that concept super appealing super appealing you just like the idea of being able just to Chin flip all day long and you'll eventually get somewhere in the game yeah I don't know maybe that's what it is it's because my skill level is about as good as you keeping your camera on it's I it's cameras off for the audio listeners uh I don't it just to me maybe that's what it is it's like all of a sudden some of these games are super complex and super deep but I'm realistic with myself and my abilities that I know I'm not gonna see half of it but this is a game where it's like I actually am I actually am going to be able to see this entire game what if you don't level up what if I I suck that bad I mean it's possible right it is it sure is possible I don't know what what would this game do for you let's let's just pretend that it did not have the level up system if it did not have the level up system if I never logged in this game I would not have it yeah and you just had to go off the theme and off the layout and nothing else because I would not be super excited because I'm I saw the stream and thought okay if I'm starting at level one every time I hit start it's gonna be a bear to get to level 10 by the end of the end of all three so I feel like I'm never gonna see a lot of this and that to me that's the equivalent of like take Godzilla but instead of hitting two ramps now all of a sudden you're having to hit 15 ramps yeah before I can battle my first car though I don't think that the rules would be that way if there wasn't a level up system so let's just let's just throw out a what if that the mini modes weren't mini modes anymore that they were just actual mode would that be something that sure you would look at the spin you'd be like okay I'm a little bit interested or is it that the XP system has just so intriguing that that's overriding a lot the XP system is what is because I'm getting a pro the XP system is what I'm in foreign song is coming out very soon it's because it's a pro it doesn't have those change statements that that would draw me in the change State max if I knew that but because I don't have those it's the code that's the code that's saving me in this like that's what's drawing me in that's what's getting me excited that was something you know with Bond I knew the code wasn't it's not that the code has really gotten really good but when I got the game the code wasn't there so it's like the code wasn't what was going to draw me into bonds so it's like okay I hope this shoots really well I hope that's what grabs my attention you know that kind of thing but um no what about what about you Tom what like is there is there anything because now I'm like Joel's probably like well I I didn't want to really you know do a podcast with Tom and Travis I wanted to do a Keith elwin I mean what like the pro premium okay oh yeah are you saying we're the pros you're saying we're the pros we're the pros and Keith Ellis what's that mate Carl sounds like a premium with expression lighting yeah he's a premium with all the accessories premium with uh Precision lightning flippers sexy powder coating I don't know but so what what could Venom do though Tom can Venom do anything to get you on board as somebody because there's a lot of people that aren't probably right I need to play it personally but but if you do that if you step up and play a premium if you go to Expo or whenever you have a chance to play a premium what would the game have to do for you to call up somebody and buy an Ellie be like all right you got me I mean it's gorgeous a premium or just I mean the the code's got to be there that I mean it's got to be fun to play and you know I I just it's just one of those variables I don't know right now and I'm not gonna spend the money to take a wild guess as to why you know as to is this going to be a keeper pin for me this is going to be a wait and see pin but so you you just bought you bought the Foo Fighters Ellie I know you're a Foo Fighters fan was that maybe that's an unfair thing but like what was it when you saw those streams what was it that confirmed you were making a good choice was it your confidence in raid a or was it the shot layout I mean maybe maybe the better question is Godfather because okay sure you weren't a Godfather fan where you get yeah okay so what about Godfather how did that draw you in ah I think it was more the the gameplay aspect when I got to touch it feel it play the you know play the actual game as one you know I I liked it better shots felt good and just the overall same with food satisfaction well we knew Pulp Fiction was coming because we heard the rumors and we heard rumors that it was single level when I heard that I was like I'm out you know but when I physically played the game and was like wow this is really cool and unique for a single level play out I was like yeah I want to play this never mind I'm in yeah never mind I'm in so they did the same thing with there's a chance there is a chance I did the same thing with stranger things first time I played it I did not like the game at all [Laughter] yeah but but as the code developed it got a lot better so you know I I guess you know looking at the layout I'm just I'm really bummed on the pro because I actually I was thinking I'm like maybe I'll get a Venom Pro sure and when I saw the differences between the premium and the pro I was like no it's too much yeah what they need to do is they need to put two doppelgangers on there you got two ashes on there we're good to go he's in uh well imagine imagine playing a pro like like you're talking about Joel yeah and you get used to that and then you go play a premium and now like everything's just freaking so different because you know as soon as you pick a character the the whole game changes I'm with the whole path so I need you to feel bad for me I feel really bad for you there's definitely a big difference in it though when because remember the last time I can remember people being this up in arms with the differences from a pro to a premium was Led Zeppelin oh yeah that's the last one I remember and what was the big difference there it was that there was no side ramp yeah and then something magic electric yeah yeah so which I know some people turn off right yeah so when I look at this though compared to the pro it's like yeah huge yeah you are missing a lot and is noticeable and you know I I'm curious to see how that works out but I don't know I I think that we've reached the point that people do have high expectations and what are going to be in these games and I think we finally reached the point that considering where the price points are for the Le I would like to see a little bit more go into the Le and I'm not talking about necessarily design or artwork or anything like that well artwork for sure in terms of the translites I think that the Le needs to have its own translate I I don't like the idea yeah it's a almost uh what uh two thousand seven hundred dollar difference between a pro and a premium it's all yeah yeah one of the things that I wish that they were able to do for Le buyers or Le adopters because I don't think a lot of people really care about signatures from the CEO or certificate I think that there are people that do care about the signatures from the designer I think that a lot of people would be excited if say the full team signed a translate an Le translight and it came along with it I think if they gave people access to all the translites just send it all with Le that would be cool did they do that with Star Wars I could have swore that they did that if you bought a Star Wars Le that you got all the translites I might be totally tripping right now but I could have swore that happened but I've just always felt like with an Le that that's something right there it's the little things like that to where you can bring out more value and I think having the full team sign the translate I mean I think that that's just a foregone conclusion that's like a celebration of that pin and totality of everybody that's worked on it and that's something that people that if they really dig their Le they they're gonna frame that and put it up you know on the wall why not do something like that and then what about putting a Topper yeah including it what about uh like an airbrushed motorcycle jacket and helmet what how about a golf cart doing the or Oblivion for uh oh gosh for centaur yeah hey Venom Venom's done one good thing we totally forgot about centaur which really has nothing against Centaur just uh different I don't know I don't want to open that can worms we're running out of time it's on a different continent that's it's like outside yeah it shows up yeah it's nothing against it I'm with you it's just not yeah venom venom showed up it got debuted and then three days four days later it's on location for people to play that's I mean that's early bird gets the worm in terms of just eyeballs and everything that's just how it goes but yeah I I don't know I maybe adding a Topper to an Le that might be the margin obviously would slim down really quick I just wish that there would be I think I want to see just more to these LEDs if if they let's say they did that though like if if if a Stern topper is roughly a thousand dollars right now A Stern at least what 13 or it's 12-5 what is it thirteen nine nine twelve nine so if it's at 13 what if they went to thirteen five but now it's guaranteed you get the topper you think that would I think that would entice a lot more people if they could figure that out to go between the premium yeah I don't I don't think people necessarily if they know a Topper is coming with the game that they have to have just an all-time great topper it could be something very similar to what you're seeing in the background with Godzilla it could be something that has a price point between 750 and sure a thousand dollars and if you could figure out how to work it into the bomb cool I mean it's it's just figuring out if you're going to put out a thousand Les yeah you you have to really they probably figure the Le owner's gonna buy the topper anyway so why include which is correct and which which is correct but if you're not selling out of a thousand Les true but this is new what this is new right the set the not selling out of a thousand Le's this is a new problems for the past few years but this is something we've been talking about privately that we knew was coming this was not unexpected at all it's not like that this is a giant surprise you know I don't know if I said this publicly on the podcast but I know the three of us have talked in private chats and I've been saying this for a few months now you could see this coming a mile away from everything slowing down from Stern moving to a new facility the amount of dealers that there are that are out there I mean it's just there's a lot of allocation out there and there's just a ton of supply and not as much demand it was going to happen at some point you just you find that ceiling so with a thousand Le's when you get a weaker theme on that yeah it's people aren't going to move as fast for it they're just not and and the other thing that we don't know about guys we don't know how many people bought Le sight unseen just saw pure speculation of the thought of not just flipping it but knowing that they wouldn't lose any money whatsoever so they felt completely comfortable buying it playing it for a few months and then sending it on its way and now that you're in a situation in which the supply exceeds the demand that variable is gone that ship has selled it's just it's just the way it is I definitely knew people like that that they I mean they're streamers where it's like they know they're going to buy a game just to stream it for whatever four or five months and what you know for the last few years what game made the most sense that you would make the most money potentially when you sold it it always made sense to get the Le and yeah so things are changing and but I mean at the end of the day I'm glad we have you know we're continuing to make cool games I think this is super unique and Innovative I can't wait to see um how well this game plays or how it's received unfortunately I think we have a decent bit of time before um games uh actually show up so I think they said early August which really is not a like a week it's like a week away late late August is way August okay because because to the new facility so you're you're going to see these games still being it's gonna be at least a month yeah you're going to see them at different different areas I think they're going to be at Southern Fried Gaming Expo this upcoming weekend okay and I imagine you'll see it at a couple other places leading up to it but yeah I I don't expect to see these on location for a few more weeks until at the earliest mid-august and that's being generous you're probably a month out yeah so for the next for the next few weeks I would assume we're going to be light on news which is kind of a wait and see situation but um but yeah wow we devoted a full two hours to one topic and I think that says a lot I think I think that says a lot about the game Sorry everybody we can totally talk about Centaur now we got a couple of minutes to talk about but we can't I think it looks I think it looks beautiful I can say that and if you're a centaur fan I mean this is going to be a ridiculously amazing version of the game I know Sean with pride pinball he had bought a fathom and has just nothing but amazing things to say about the quality of the game so it just that's really what it comes down to is if you are that type of fan if you are that big of a fan of that game yeah go for it it's super expensive though but it's gonna be this amazingly awesome version of that game if that's something you're into um I don't know that's my thoughts but I'm I don't know if I'll ever play one or have a chance to so it's kind of if somebody wants to guess uh Joel a centaur Pro please do yeah and I'll struggle through no no it'll be great that is probably the dumbest thing I've ever said on this podcast is to feel that but it's yeah um to be complaining about getting a Proto stream nah you said way down apparently I say I don't know apparently I say I don't know a lot people have pointed that out I've been saying like a lot I mean if Zach wants to bring it here instead save you from from streaming the pro I'm I'm happy to do it apparently the drinking game with this it used to be I used to say that's fair a lot and I found I I didn't realize I was saying that so I I I've caught that but now apparently I say I don't know I literally don't know anything I don't know I don't know I really want to make a soundboard of all your I don't knows when you were talking to Keith on your other podcast I think that would have been hilarious but yep I didn't realize I uh apparently that's my thing okay it's endearing it's fine I can't talk and my camera doesn't work out yeah there you go we all got our thing is beautiful all the time it just is what it is I just changed my mind yeah but when you speak it's it's calculated and it's and it's meaningful yeah you don't blab like Joel and I yeah it's like 91 percent of the things somebody ain't got the time for that yeah I'm the one talking the most and I don't know anything [Laughter] all right that needs to be the name of the podcast I don't know I really hope it was a great game I really do and I I you know I could change my mind on it yeah Tom because my kids they got to go to college so don't mind that's part of the problem all right well let's plug it up um Tom go for it uh Fox Cities pinball you can send all your hate mail to Triple drain pinball podcast wonderful well thank you Tom as always for being here thank you um Travis go for it uh yeah you guys can find me on this podcast at triple drain and I'm finally back to doing YouTube videos pretty soon yeah over on TPC so you can find me there talking about different I don't know pinball stuff because that's what I do TPC is the pinball company the pinball comes so check that out on YouTube uh uh Travis officer tinkering with some YouTube shorts uh with this podcast so hopefully we don't know yet if that'll go on our YouTube which is triple drain search that we actually have a YouTube channel I think we have a whopping six subscribers um but we've just had it just in case we want to use it otherwise we may be going through the pinball Network obviously that's where a lot of people see these videos don't know we're trying to figure trying to figure that out but um but yeah and uh my name is Joel I do the flip out stream every uh Wednesday night from 10 to midnight um so check that out uh flipping out with friends fun conversations there hopefully having another interview lined up here soonish I don't know we haven't set a time but um that should be fun and then um who is it tell us trying to get you know Brian Eddy trying to get him one again but he's not nearly uh he's not nearly as talkative as some of the other designers so we'll see if that happens yeah um but I do know Dwight uh Dwight Sullivan has been on on some of our chatting stream and he's already mentioned that he'd like to be on stream or is happy to be a part of stream whenever I get the game so that'll be a good time um but yeah so definitely check all those out uh we have a patreon thank you to all of our patreon supporters really appreciate you guys um for supporting us and then obviously check out Zazzle if you want a sweet lunch box or a silver ball swag if you want any of that merch but um I think that's it so like always Tom you get the last words thanks foreign