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Ep 114: Year of the Yeti part 2 with Jermey Packer

LoserKid Pinball Podcast·podcast_episode·1h 17m·held·Aug 3, 2023
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Analysis

claude-haiku-4-5-20251001 · $0.032

TL;DR

Jeremy Packer details the decade-long Foo Fighters journey and managing two major Stern releases simultaneously.

Summary

Jeremy Packer (Zombie Yeti), Stern's lead artist, discusses the "Year of the Yeti" with back-to-back releases of Venom and Foo Fighters. He details the 10-year journey of the Foo Fighters project starting from 2011 band merchandise work, his early involvement in game design through sketching and concept work, and how Taylor Hawkins' tragic passing impacted the project's emotional trajectory. Packer emphasizes collaboration with designers Jack Danger and Tanya (game designer) and acknowledges the animation team's crucial role in bringing the visual direction to life.

Key Claims

  • Jeremy Packer did not win a Twippy award for the Turtles and Avengers games due to vote-splitting

    high confidence · Jeremy Packer directly stated this early in the interview when Josh Roop mentioned he was a 'two-time Twippy winning champion'

  • Foo Fighters project began with Packer doing merchandise work for the band in 2011-2012

    high confidence · Jeremy Packer: 'I first started doing work for the band Merch Work in like 2011, I think, 2011, 2012'

  • Formal Stern/Foo Fighters discussions began around 2016-2017, with Zoom calls with band management and designer Jack Danger as early as 2019

    high confidence · Jeremy Packer described timeline: 'it was actually like 2016 or 2017' for gig posters, and 'I remember having meetings like like Zoom calls with with the management about the project early on, like probably as early as 2019'

  • Taylor Hawkins' death occurred at a crucial early point in Foo Fighters development and significantly impacted the team emotionally

    high confidence · Jeremy Packer: 'when unfortunately Taylor Hawkins tragically passed was at a very crucial point in the game, very early in some regards... it was a gut punch, I think, to everyone'

  • Packer worked on Venom for approximately 2-3 months until almost Christmas before switching to Foo Fighters for 10-11 months

    high confidence · Jeremy Packer: 'I think uh, I maybe had worked on it two months or something like that, three months' and 'when I went so deep into Foo Fighters, you know, for, you know, 10, 11 months'

  • Packer intentionally worked on early Venom concept sketches before pivoting to Foo Fighters, then had to return to Venom with a different headspace

    high confidence · Jeremy Packer described coming back to Venom after Foo Fighters: 'when I came back to Venom and I looked at stuff that I had done, I'm like, what the hell?'

  • Packer collaborated closely with game designers Jack Danger and Tanya on Foo Fighters, with Packer pitching a character concept (later named 'the overlord')

    high confidence · Jeremy Packer: 'I sort of like laid on the table, you know, my whole sort of backstory for, for some of, of, you know, the character of, of what became the overlord'

Notable Quotes

  • “this isn't going to be fun. like this isn't going to be conducive for me to try to do my best work”

    Jeremy Packer @ early in interview — Packer's initial concern about back-to-back releases and how it might affect quality

  • “I apologize because I the last thing I want to do is make people get tired of me”

    Jeremy Packer @ mid-interview — Shows self-awareness about oversaturation and concern for audience fatigue with his work

  • “this is probably the closest we're ever going to get to being able to do an original theme... Let's not drop the ball on it.”

    Jeremy Packer @ mid-interview — Reflects Packer's perspective on Foo Fighters as a rare opportunity for creative freedom within licensing constraints

  • “I never had a weekend off for two years”

    Jeremy Packer @ discussing workload — Illustrates the intensity of managing two major simultaneous projects

  • “let's make this a celebration let's make this something for all the kids”

    Jeremy Packer (Zombie Yeti) @ discussing turning point — Shows how the team refocused after Taylor Hawkins' death, shifting from uncertainty to celebrating the project

  • “I don't consider myself an artist because that would be pretentious”

    Jeremy Packer @ mid-interview — Reveals Packer's self-deprecating nature and resistance to lofty artistic claims

  • “Trust is the best place to get it. Every project I've ever worked on... I will, I'll do sketches, I'll do concepts to get buy-in”

    Jeremy Packer @ discussing creative freedom — Explains Packer's methodology for earning creative freedom through early buy-in and concept work

  • “Chuck Ernst and his army of talent are really the saviors of it all”

    Jeremy Packer @ discussing animations — Credits animation director Chuck Ernst and team for cohesive animation work on recent games

Entities

Jeremy PackerpersonZombie YetipersonJack DangerpersonTanyapersonBrian EddypersonChuck ErnstpersonJody Dankbergperson

Signals

  • ?

    personnel_signal: Jeremy Packer expressed concern about audience fatigue with his work appearing on back-to-back Venom and Foo Fighters releases, stating 'the last thing I want to do is make people get tired of me'

    high · Direct statement by Packer about his awareness of oversaturation; earlier mentioned similar concerns with Turtles/Avengers pairing

  • ?

    design_philosophy: Packer deliberately gets involved in projects as early as possible, even before officially scheduled, doing unpaid sketch work to understand creative direction and build confidence with licensors

    high · Packer described Godzilla as first instance where he started after Avengers and did extensive sketches; stated he was brought in early on Foo Fighters and does this across all projects

  • ?

    design_innovation: Packer deliberately designed Venom and Foo Fighters with distinct visual palettes (Foo Fighters: greens; Venom: blacks, dark purples, blues, reds) to prevent them from appearing to come from the same creative universe

    high · Packer: 'I did go out of my way to try to make sure that these two games would not look like they were coming from the same universe necessarily' and Josh confirmed the visual distinction

  • ?

    product_strategy: Stern scheduled two major licensor-required artworks (Venom and Foo Fighters) back-to-back, with Packer expressing concern this would negatively impact work quality and asked not to be blamed if sales/reception suffered

    high · Packer: 'I said, well, if can you guys just not blame me when the year's over and you look at the at the the numbers, Like, just don't blame me'

  • ?

Transcript

groq_whisper · $0.232

0:00
thanks for tuning into the loser kid pinball podcast we're on episode 114 i am josh roop my co-captain has decided to fly off to another country he will not be back for a couple weeks but in the meantime we have an exciting guest on today but before i get to him i want to remind you Venom just released. It's looking amazing. The gameplay footage is fantastic. If you haven't checked that out, go on YouTube. But if you want that game, hit up Zach Nicole Mini at Flippin' Out. I just got my Foo Fighters on my birthday last Tuesday. Literally 4 o'clock on my birthday. Showed up. It was the best birthday present ever, and it's been a fantastic game. I am just loving this game. My family's loving this game. If you want that magic in your home, give Zach Nicole Mini a call, or you can do like I do. I go on Facebook, and I hit him up through Messenger, and that way it's easier to get maybe a response and kind of keep a track of like did i message him did i not but anywho enough of that i have an absolute i don't know how to i don't there's no words to really describe how amazing this man is his artwork is driven the whole art front in pinball in my opinion he's a two-time twippy winning champion which means he has the most Twippies for artwork and it's year of the Yeti the sequel first it was Avengers and Ninja Turtles and now we have Venom and Foo Fighters so if you'll please welcome Jeremy Packer aka Zombie Yeti how are you doing sir I'm doing well uh other than you bring up something interesting which is if you recall the year of Turtles and Avengers I did not win a Twippy that is really weird to me i split the vote no i split the vote uh for starting so yeah whatever and by the way to go you're fighting yourself and someone else won nothing against nothing against awards it's all nice and good but don't worry guys i don't lose sleep so what do you have yeah we won't talk about the competition on that one i don't even know i don't even know i don't have all my i don't even have all my awards and the ones that i do have i think are like in like a storage Sherry or something. I don't know. Well, if you beat Franchi again this year, you've got to. He tries to do the Twippy Stomp and, you know, he's got to do it again. I think he's got like four games coming out yet or something or something. I'm not sure which. I know Galactic King Force just came out in March or something like that. Yeah.
2:35

  • Packer stated he had never worked with designer Brian Eddy before Venom

    high confidence · Jeremy Packer: 'that was interesting because I had never worked with Brian before'

    • Josh Roop
    person
    Zach Nicole Miniperson
    Phil Gulletperson
    Zach Sharpeperson
    Paulperson
    Kizavette brothersperson
    Taylor Hawkinsperson
    Dave Grohlperson
    Foo Fightersorganization
    Stern Pinballcompany
    Venomgame
    Foo Fightersgame
    Godzillagame
    Deadpoolgame
    The Avengersgame
    Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtlesgame
    Jurassic Parkgame

    community_signal: Twippy awards (community voting) affected by vote-splitting; Packer mentioned vote-splitting prevented Turtles/Avengers wins and joked about Franchi competing against him

    medium · Packer's discussion of Twippy vote dynamics and comparison with Franchi's multiple upcoming game releases

  • ?

    product_launch: Venom has just released and is showing positive gameplay reception; Foo Fighters recently released to host Josh Roop as a birthday gift, indicating production is active

    high · Josh opened podcast discussing Venom release with 'fantastic gameplay footage' and mentioned receiving Foo Fighters delivery last Tuesday

  • ?

    design_philosophy: Packer noted Foo Fighters represents closest opportunity to an 'original theme' within pinball's licensing model; band management and Stern allowed creative freedom beyond typical band-themed games

    high · Packer: 'this is probably the closest we're ever going to get to being able to do an original theme... the closest we're going to have probably as long as I'm in pinball'

  • ?

    historical_signal: Foo Fighters project took 10 years from initial 2011 merchandise work through 2019+ formal development, showing long lead times in IP licensing negotiations for major bands

    high · Timeline from 2011 band merch work, 2016-2017 gig posters, 2019 Zoom calls with band management, multi-year development cycle

  • ?

    team_dynamics: Packer transitioned from working with Jack Danger (Foo Fighters, collaborative, efficient, new to cornerstone designs) to Brian Eddy (Venom, different style, first collaboration), requiring mental adjustment

    high · Packer described Jack as 'very efficient designer' and 'easy and breezy' while noting 'coming off of that one with Jack and jumping back in with Brian... different experience'

  • ?

    community_signal: Venom's Doppelgänger character nicknamed 'Doppelkaker' by community due to pronounced posterior design; question posed but Packer clarified he didn't control sculpture decisions

    medium · Josh asked 'was that your decision? Did you put the sculptor into putting a big butt?' and Packer denied involvement

  • ?

    content_signal: Packer emphasizes animation team (Chuck Ernst's department) deserves greater recognition and podcast visibility; mentions Phil Gullet and Kizavette brothers as key talents

    high · Packer: 'Chuck Ernst and his army of talent are really the saviors of it all' and 'somebody needs to just give me a list... You need to get all of these guys on a podcast'

  • ?

    operational_signal: Packer worked without a single weekend off for two years while managing Venom and Foo Fighters simultaneously, indicating extreme production pressure at Stern

    high · Packer: 'I never had a weekend off for two years'

    • But enough about that, though. But your artwork is everywhere this year. How are you feeling about this? I apologize. I actually, so by the way, I don't make the schedule.
    2:47
    And it just so happens that in this case, two games were scheduled back to back where licensors had me as part of the ask and the contract, right? And like, I remember when it all came about and they were talking about it and I kept going like, you know, this isn't going to be fun. like this isn't going to be conducive for me to try to do my best work i was i was concerned for that right because i'm always concerned about you know being able to do the best that i possibly can with the time that i have but but in the end you know uh you know i it was you know it was a similar situation with turtles and avengers where the first game gets sort of a more attention and then And then the second game is like the rush to the finish line. Now, in this case, it wasn't quite as bad as Turtles and Avengers. Okay. Because technically I had started doing sketching on Venom before it became, you know, a priority to do Foo Fighters. And yeah, but but but actually there's so much more to it. But yes. But yeah, I am. I apologize because I the last thing I want to do is make people get tired of me. And so so I remember when they told me that these were going to be back to back. I said, well, if can you guys just not blame me when the year's over and you look at the at the the numbers, Like, just don't blame me.
    4:38
    That goes both ways, by the way. Well, and honestly, these packages are looking fantastic. And the one, so let's talk Foo Fighters first, because when we both kind of discussed this, you said this was like a project 10 years in the making or something like that. So tell me more about that. So, so like, I think the first, I mean, it's, it's kind of, it's kind of true. So from my side of it, I first started doing work for the band Merch Work in like 2011, I think, 2011, 2012.
    5:15
    As a matter of fact, some of the things I did during that time, they still, like it's sort of made its way to now. It's still being used. A lot of it is still sort of being iterated. and I can send you some of that stuff but anyway and so you know that's a very impersonal situation you know you're working with like a third party or whatever but over time you get you know requests to do more and whatever and it was actually like 2016 or 2017 really bad with numbers by the way that's why I don't do anything with numbers I just I can color pictures and draw things. But but anyway, so so what happened was they had asked me to start doing, you know, some some gig posters. And that actually comes from in this case at the time it came from management. And so then it sort of, you know, parlays into into something a little different. But anyway, tangentially, at the same time, in a parallel world, they were looking to do a pinball game. And so there were conversations being made, you know, obviously out of my purview. And it just so happened at the same time, you know, I'm doing, you know, Iron Maiden, I'm doing, you know, Primus, all these things. And so I think it was after Primus, Iron Maiden, and Deadpool that year that it got on my radar. And actually management was like, hey, by the way, we're looking to do a game with Stern. We're getting things going, and we're making it so you're going to be the guy to do it. And I go, oh, that's cool. Like, that's nice. Yeah. And then obviously Jody Dankberg's the guy who handles all that stuff at Stern. And so Jody gave me a heads up as well. And I go, OK, so they weren't just telling me lies. They're telling me the truth. That's great. And and from there, it's sort of.
    7:23
    I remember having meetings like like Zoom calls with with the management about the project early on, like probably as early as 2019. team. Okay. There was even another designer that was on it for a period of time. I think I can say that. Okay. Uh, and, and, but it was sort of like a weird transition time. And so it kind of was like, well, let's, you know, anyway, you know, we had zoom calls. I remember the first zoom call we had with Dave and, uh, he went ahead and basically made fun of all of our environments that, uh, where we were like our offices and stuff like that. Yeah. And I'm like, well, that's real nice, sir.
    8:14
    Actually, that's not true. I was very quiet. I tried to be on my best behavior, so I didn't look like a total nerd.
    8:22
    But anyway, so it was a long time. So I had time to think about it for years. and I actually kind of worked a lot of my gig poster concepts around sort of these little vignetted ideas that I started to sort of pad out in my head of where this could go and what it could be, not ever thinking it actually would end up being what could actually be in the game. Because I didn't know who I was going to be working with. I didn't know where it was going to go. And it just so happens it was Jack and Tanya. and Jack and Tanya for some reason, listen to me and like me and respect me.
    9:08
    And, and so when I, when I pitch ideas to them, they made them sound way better than what I thought they were. And so, so I sort of like laid on the table, you know, my whole sort of backstory for, for some of, of, you know, the character of, of what became the overlord. He didn't really have a name at that time. And and just between all of us, you know, sort of having these sort of Zoom powwows, it just started, you know, avalanche. And I just come up with concepts and toss them to them and and assume they were terrible and they'd all be like, no, this is great. And then it would get me all excited and give me confidence to go, well, I think I'm going to dig in a little further with this stupidity. And anyway, and then the band, the band was totally on board. And I do I do recall I will take credit for this. I think I was the first one to say this. And I just said, listen, guys, this is probably the closest we're ever going to get to being able to do an original theme. Yeah, it's not an original theme. But what they're allowing us to do here is the closest we're going to have. probably as long as I'm in pinball. I don't, you know, who knows, maybe things will change, but, but I go, this is, this is probably the one. So let's not drop the ball on it. And, and I was, I was trying to be like, you know, supportive and, and, and energetic and, and like, be like, Hey guys, this is great. But at the same time, it's also a lot, a lot of weight. When you look at it that way. Yeah. So, so So, but, you know, thankfully, you know, working with Jack and working with Tanya was, you know, it was easy and breezy. I mean, those guys are great. Tanya and I had worked on Deadpool, you know, and we bonded quite a bit on Deadpool, especially when it changed designers. You know, we were kind of in the woods on our own for a while. and so so you know we uh we we have a really good rapport in that regard and then and jack i don't know if you know this or not but jack you know he is tall yeah which is funny because you're tall yourself no no but he makes me feel short so i don't i don't like him because of that but don't tell him that we won't say anyone who makes me feel like i make somebody else feel uh no he's extremely tough but no uh jack it was interesting with jack because he was kind of i don't think i'm telling uh tales out of school to say this but uh jack was uh really you know he had done jurassic park yeah and he had a lot of great ideas and i think it was just sort of you know he was learning the process on a cornerstone of and sort of you know the team coming together everything. And I think that worked in his favor and to our favor because, you know, like he some things he would go like, well, what about this? That somebody else might go, I know we can't do that. And then in the process, he would kind of come to a compromise. He's a very efficient designer in that regard, which I relate to because to do what I do in the time frame. you know efficiency is very important you know like you don't you got to use every every second uh as best you can so um but yeah uh i don't know there's i did i go too long on that i don't know not at all so you know me i can't shut up so there's nothing wrong with that people love it well and the other question i had too because you if i understood correctly you're brought in a lot earlier on the foo fighters process than most pinball machines was that because of the relationship and whatnot? Well, it definitely was, but I will say this. Over the years, I had shoehorned myself in as early as possible on the projects I was attached to because I wanted to be able to get,
    13:22
    you know, so when I dig into a project, like I really, I promise you there's, until I completely get it until it clicks and until I have sort of my direction and sort of, you know, what really sort of drives me and excites me, makes me feel like I'm, you know, 13 years old again or whatever, which drives, you know, the focus and ambition to not fail, by the way. So it's a good thing. But I want to start as early as possible. And by the way, I wouldn't charge a lot of times, even for some of those hours for things like that. Like I'd be like, listen, just in my spare time, just give me a heads up on where we're going. Let me kind of feel this out and make some decisions. I would come up with different concepts for my direction visually on what I think we could do. Godzilla is a great example. So Godzilla is probably the first one where I started. I think I started right after Avengers. and like even though I wasn't set to start I said I want to start I want I want to feel this one out I want to decide where you know where to go I want to make sure I'm going the right direction and so I was able to put a little bit more focus I did a lot of sketches and a lot of them you know will never see the light of day I didn't even show them to the team or whatever I just you know, throw them away, whatever. I mean, well, obviously I still have them, but, but, but at the same time, it was one of those things where, where I was able to, by doing that, have a much better understanding of where I could go and where I couldn't go. So coming up with creative solutions for certain things, um, it made it a lot, a lot easier, uh, because, you know, I, I, I don't rush to the finish line. I probably, they'd love it if I did, but I kind of feel like I'm doing a disservice if I don't sort of feel my way through something, which sounds pretentious and dumb, but it's not, I promise. I don't purport to be an important artist, by the way, but I'm a careful one. I try not to waste time. Now, I'm sure there's some people on Pinside who would say that uh i do anyway they don't count they don't count no no no they absolutely everyone counts but uh so so from from that experience on godzilla uh and and just going you know that worked out well and then seeing the response to godzilla which was so positive minus the the watermelon crowd. Sorry. I said, well, I've got to have another main character with green. What's my next project? And they said, Foo Fighters. I said, no problem. I'll figure it out. Anyway, that's an overlord joke. But no, so I wanted to start immediately as soon as I could after Godzilla because number one, I knew that and actually it was Venom that I started on after Godzilla.
    16:48
    I think I had done concept sketches for cabinets and back glasses, but we're talking like thumbnails. They weren't very refined it was just sort of well here's an idea here's a direction or whatever and because don't you guys do that when you're when you're doing concepts for pinball machines don't you start out small and kind of just paste it on there so that way it gives it a general direction well i don't well yeah so i i uh i just basically make a very i i make the templates very small so that i stay loose and i say i don't get too because i can get caught up in in like stupid details and it's a terrible thing to do. And that's why thumbnails exist for artists. And the concept of it, kids, if you're artists out there and you don't like doing thumbnails, you're doing yourself a disservice. It took me many years to realize this. But color sketches also aren't bad.
    17:49
    But yeah, I would come up with concepts. We didn't always blow them up and put them on boxes that actually usually comes when we do like the, the sort of internal reviews with like the execs and stuff like that, like that there's times where, where we'll do that. And in the case of Foo Fighters, we definitely did that because Jack really wanted to sell this concept of what we were doing. And, and, and I, you know, I don't, I think if you saw like, sort of the general crowd reaction when it leaked that Foo Fighters was being made everyone was like, ah, band pin. And I think everybody even internally a lot of people probably to some degree thought, oh, it's a band pin. And we were trying to say, no, no, no, we're not making it a band pin.
    18:45
    They're there but it's not really a band pin. So to be able to communicate that was probably part of the reason why he did that. yeah and also he's got that uh radio voice so when he does presentations uh he sounds so confident makes you feel all warm and fuzzy inside like you can trust what he's doing he makes me feel inadequate uh and my speaking voice he's no jerry thompson though but anyway shout out to jerry because he always has the most booming voice uh whenever he does a podcast Uh so so yeah I think I think I worked on Venom uh until almost Christmas of that year before And then I started on so like I think uh, I maybe had worked on it two months or something like that, three months. I just started inking one of the back glasses. So it was weird. So like when I went to Foo Fighters and I, you know, I went so deep into Foo Fighters, you know, for, you know, 10, 11 months, whatever it was, when I came back to Venom and I looked at stuff that I had done, I'm like, what the hell? Like, you know, like I had like a different, like I go, okay, I like this, but what was I thinking over here and stuff like that? So like trying to make some adjustments on the fly and everything was was it was weird for me. It was different, especially because it was a rushed timeline. But but what I did to make it all sort of gel and make sense to me was I talked with Greg and I'm like, one of the things that has the longest lead time for parts and everything else is obviously the play field. Right. Yeah. And so they had the play field at that point. it was very much sort of tuned in.
    20:40
    There was a lot, you know, little things to be done, but it was pretty tuned in. And so I talked with Greg, and Greg's like, hey, man, why don't you just jump into the play field? Figure out the play field, and from there, like, once you get back to those other pieces you had already started, you know, you're going to sort of have kind of your anchor or whatever. And so the first thing I did when I jumped into the play field was I tried to think, how in the heck can I make sure this doesn't compete with Foo Fighters? Yeah. Visually. Now, obviously, if I'm doing it, there's going to be, you know, a little bit of connective tissue in that there's certain things that I like to see, I like to do, you know, versus others. And obviously then the actual layout of the game, the shot paths, everything else, that dictates a lot of it. The game rules dictate a lot of it. But I did go out of my way to try to make sure that these two games would not look like they were coming from the same universe necessarily.
    21:48
    And whether that was a success or not is up to other people. But I'm proud of what I got done considering that I never had a weekend off for two years. So there's that. Well, and they do look great, and they do look great. You can definitely tell that you've separated the two from each other. You know, you've got a lot of greens and whatnot inside of Foo Fighters and with Venom. It's a lot of blacks and dark purples and blues complemented with reds and whatnot. And it looks really good. It looks very – they're very different from each other. I know that when you did Turtles and Avengers, the situation was you said that like Turtles, you originally started on that and Marvel had requested that you do Avengers. And you're like, well, I'm kind of busy right now. And like if I'm if I'm available, you haven't found anyone, I'll do it. And then when you got down towards the end of Turtles, they're like, so how are you doing? Was that kind of a similar situation with this or was it more with Venom? Like how did that all work out? Well, so in this case, it was different. But after Avengers, it was pretty much Marvel was just like, no, no, no, we got to work with him type of thing, which is cool. It's just very flattering. It's very nice.
    23:00
    It's job security, I guess. And speaking of, anyway, we'll get to that. Yeah, we'll get to that. But so on that one, I think they had tried out a few artists even in that sort of time period where I was working to finish Turtles. And by the time I finished Turtles, they had basically rejected everything. And so it's like, OK, it's your turn. And at that point, I said, well, listen, if I do it, I'm like, you know, like I'm going to, you know, this is a lot to get done. And by the way, I would argue in hindsight. And by the way, you should never as an artist, you should never tell people what you think about your shortcomings. but I don't consider myself an artist because that would be pretentious. Like, no, I also don't consider myself very good at keeping my mouth shut. So I feel like had I done Avengers before Turtles, Avengers would have been a very different game visually. Yeah. Turtles would have ended up the same. So had those two flopped, I may have approached them differently, but because I really changed my approach on turtles at that time where I'm like, okay, I'm pushing to make curvilinear forms, not a lot of hard edge, sort of rectangular shaping, things like that, because I was really trying to, whatever, stupid. It sounds pretentious, so now I've got to shut up again. But but that's one where I go, oh, man, that might have might have looked different in the case of Venom and Foo Fighters. The only thing that would have been different was my headspace. So I don't I think when I got back to Venom, once I got done with the play field and I felt pretty good about it.
    25:00
    It helped sort of, you know, when I got back to those little tiny sketches and I had to flesh them out and then ink and color and everything else. It made it a little bit easier at the end of the day, I think.
    25:17
    One thing I've noticed too recently is looking at Venom and at Foo Fighters, the animations are a lot more cohesive with the artwork that you're doing. And I bring that up because I love the artwork of Turtles, but I feel like the animations are lacking. So have you had something to do with the animations to make it more cohesive, or is it just teams are working better together? Like, how does that translate? I'm not going to take credit for anything, because Chuck Ernst and his army of talent are really the saviors of it all. So, like, for instance, on Turtles, I think people, like, in hindsight, I look at it, I go, okay, so people have a complaint where they go, it's a 2D animated cartoon, and they decided to use 3D. In hindsight, even though it's cel-shaded or whatever, like in hindsight, I go, okay, I understand what people are saying, but people I don't think understand that the amount of work to be done and the time frame to be done at that time, it was the right decision. And especially because licensors do have say in what can and can't be done.
    26:37
    So what you're really seeing on Foo Fighters, sure, my pitch and idea of doing this, you know, cartoon, this, that and the other, played into it, you know, stuff like that. But at the end of the day, you know, Jack was the leader of this from a get go. Jack really wanted to lean into, you know, more of a cartoony style, which which lined up perfect for me.
    27:09
    And then you have, you know, Chuck Ernst actually seeking out, you know, some very talented individuals that that do just that. As a matter of fact, Phil Gullet, I believe he worked on Animaniacs and all these other top tier stuff. Between you and me, and I'm dead serious, I'll help facilitate this. I could not even begin to give you the laundry list of people who work on that stuff. And I'm actually going to try to here, see if I can at least find a little. I've said this before. I'm like, somebody needs to just give me a list because I know all these people. I'm friends with them. But at the same time, I always forget people. but like I think on that one Paul uh was was the lead uh oh no no that one was Zach so Foo Fighters was Zach on lead oh so terrible Paul was a on Venomous lead and and then um you know you've got the Kizavette brothers uh who who always do amazing work storyboarding animation stuff like So the timeframes and the budgets on top of the creatives involved are why you get what you get. And so I think what happened was, you know, Turtles was still early in the LCD world. Yeah. In my opinion, like it was still, you know, that team of people were, you know, like, oh, what can we do? What can we, you know, what will the licensure let us do? And I think what you're seeing now on these last two games are really, you know, again, it's a testament to that department. Chuck's department, those guys, you know, the talent there.
    28:48
    And I want to facilitate this. You need to get all of these guys on a podcast. Like you literally like maybe just the leads as a starting point. But all of the artists that they work with are amazing. and and uh you know i i'll do like character sort of turns uh for them from the get-go uh so they sort of have you know a little bit of a style i gotta go with but but then i i always defer to them i always say you guys do what you do like i've got my stuff to worry about you worry about your stuff if they need stuff from me i i i do it immediately and get it over to them so that they've got some reference for something or whatever, but the creativity, especially in Foo Fighters, that's that team. I don't, I don't, I don't want to take any credit for that. Gotcha. Well, you know, I came up with ideas, but they came up with better ideas of, of how to, you know, like what to do with it, you know? And a lot of that too, some of that came from Tanya and his writing partner as well. So it really, I mean, it really is, people don't understand how much of it is a, you know, a, a collaboration on these projects. And, you know, the game designer always is like, oh, the game designer. And listen, they're sort of the director of it. Don't get me wrong. They should be. But, like, you know, like for me, I'm like considered like lead artist. Like lead artist to what? I mean, the LCD work has a lead artist as well. Yeah. So for me, I look at it like, you know, there's a whole segment of people that are just not well represented and getting the recognition they need. Well, I agree with you. We should keep on doing that. Let's do it. I'll make it happen. Sounds good to me. That's great. And these games are looking great too. Like Foo Fighters. So you had a lot of freedom in this. Where did this freedom come from?
    30:54
    Trust is the best place to get it. Every project I've ever worked on, like I said before, even before I'm on the project, I will, I'll do sketches, I'll do concepts to get buy-in and to get confidence from the licensor from, you know, early on from Stern. But, and so once you have that confidence, in the case of Foo Fighters, I had it already. But at the same time, until we sort of worked out the direction and decided where we were going with it and got that confidence, it was a whole nother story. And I will say, and I don't want to, you know, go too far into it or, you know, labor the point, but the, the point when unfortunately Taylor Hawkins tragically passed was at a very crucial point in the game, very early in some regards, when it comes to sort of, you know, getting the absolutely run with it on certain key things.
    32:09
    And that was really a gut punch, I think, to everyone. And it was it was sad. It was tragic. And then as sort of we're picking up the pieces of all of that, it's like then it's like, oh, but we also need to keep working. Like, what do we do? Like, how do we how do we proceed? And and I just kept going at that point. I'm like, you know what, I think we probably just better move or, you know, just keep going. Let's just assume the best and move on. And thankfully, when the time finally came and we sort of got back in and, you know, after, I think, a lot of mourning by everyone. I think what happened was everyone said, you know what? And I think this came from, you know, came down directly from the band. let's they're like let's make this a celebration let's make this something for all the kids you know and and at that point like it's like you know everything just sort of was like boom you know that's our you know we're back to that you know focus that that love excitement that we had prior but now it was sort of you know it transformed a bit and in a and in a good way in my opinion, but at the same time, that's not what you want to have happen. I mean, obviously, like that's – it's rough. It was difficult for a lot of people on the team as well. And, I mean, we're a lot – all of us are fans. I don't know that anybody on that team was not a fan. And if they say they're not, you can punch them in the gut. Okay. I don't know.
    34:03
    I just figured that would be funny. And you've got to get video of it. I want to see it. Yes. I'll take full responsibility for the damage.
    34:15
    Anyway, so, yeah, it was different. It was different. But I think everyone involved, the love shows.
    34:26
    Like I said before, like, you know, when a game hits on all cylinders, you know, it really does show. Yeah. And I think I've been fortunate.
    34:36
    I try to create that from my side of it whenever I'm on a team. And obviously that, you know, that's where my joke of filling my punch card comes in with, you know, working with Brian Eddy and stuff. So that was interesting because I had never worked with Brian before.
    34:58
    And Brian's got a completely different style. You know, every designer has a different style, you know. And so it was really coming off of that one with Jack and jumping back in with Brian. You know, he made it a lot easier to sort of pick up from where I was and go. But I do feel like because of the rush, I felt like a little, like I was sort of at a distance at times.
    35:30
    you know, with Venom because obviously I'm off, you know, finishing up Foo and, you know, whatever. I don't know. Maybe that's just mentally in my head, or maybe they looked at me like a traitor. No, I'm kidding.
    35:45
    You're in Camp Eddie now. Yeah, yeah, yeah. How was – so it was obviously a different experience going in with Eddie and whatnot.
    35:56
    You know, the first question that comes to my mind, I know you had nothing to do with this, But we're getting so many questions of the Doppelkaker is what some people are naming him because he's got such a big booty.
    36:08
    Was that your decision? Did you put the sculptor into putting a big butt? Because his butt crack goes all the way to the back of his neck. No. So I'm all for butts. Listen, they're just trying to help people survive and get rid of waste. but but uh oh but i said it three times uh but uh four times uh that actually was not on me so so i do i did turnarounds i did designs i did give him a butt but i did not i didn't sculpt i didn't pose the sculpt uh i don't know who who was involved in that uh i like it because i look at it as a nod to Slimer because Slimer's butt. Yes, very true. You're the connection, though, too. You know, Ghostbusters and now Dwight. True.
    37:06
    See, I'm going to have to ask him that. He likes big butts and cannot lie. That is one thing I will say. Whenever you're on a team with Dwight, you want to talk about excitement.
    37:21
    Dwight knows how to be excited. And it's like so like every meeting, like when we're coming up with ideas very early on and all the teams in there.
    37:32
    Like Dwight knows how to make things exciting. And yeah, I always have fun working, working with him. He's him and I have this weird shorthand for occasionally misinterpreting one another, which is fun. But it all works out.
    37:53
    he wouldn't deny that so you talked about you came back to venom and one of the first things you jumped into was the play field was this was this kind of a harder play field because when i look at it there's a ton of leds in this game yeah it was it was difficult in some regard in particular this the anchor point had to be a way to use uh sort of those inserts that sort of surround and encapsulate rewards, right? And when I got in, because I was on Foo for so long, a lot of the light boards had been done and a lot of the layout of those inserts were there And I like oh I could make it so much cooler if we could do this this and this And so I fought a little bit I mean I don fight by the way but I you know kind of push to get a few of those changed. And thankfully, they were able to. And so, you know, and it was minor stuff. Again, when a designer lays something out, I don't like to step on their vision, but I do know where there are certain things that you could sort of polish just a hair and it would make for sort of a better visual layout, you know, artistically speaking and stuff like that. And most, you know, every designer I've ever worked with has no problem with that. And so anyway, so once I got into it, that was my first problem is I go, oh, this is a big area down here where I've got to actually communicate information. They also, each of those, you know, sort of ladders of completion that sort of help you encapsulate that, each of those also had to be communicating that they were, you know, from a different path and a different character path. And so thankfully, that's where the RGBs do help a little bit, because as much as I can give a visual indication subtly or not so subtly. The the ability for Dwight to control, you know, those those light colors and everything else. It helps tremendously. But but yeah, so that was that was my big problem. The other thing was, in the back of my head, you know, this is a Venom game, you know, and while, you know, Dwight is super, like, he might be a much bigger comic book nerd than I am.
    40:36
    And so, like, he was like, from the get-go, we're going to have all the, you know, like a bunch of different hosts, you know, and I'm going like, but people, when they hear Venom, they're going to want Eddie Brock. you know type of thing so i knew that that trying to balance that out and make sure that people are like still this is this is a venom this is eddie yeah that that's where you know getting getting him nice and large at the bottom between the flippers was kind of like a no-brainer like that's kind of a decision where i'm like i don't know where else i could have gotten away with that especially when, you know, because the game has a lot of web slinging and combos and things like that, a lot of those shot paths up top represented locations, not characters. Like in a lot of games, you know, it'll be a character. In this case, it was locations. And, you know, trying to crack the code of how to balance all these things and make it, you know, overall still a visual, interesting, you know, a way to break up space in areas but still communicate information. It's always a challenge, and I try to be very analytical and think it out and start in areas that I understand and I don't know. And a lot of that was, honestly, I think all comes back to working on Ghostbusters with Greg. I'd always I'd ask Greg, I'm like, OK, I said, so when I when I worked with with J-Pop there. I said the one thing was when it came to play fields, he'd always make sure that I just had absolutely no way of knowing where I was going because he would constantly change everything.
    42:26
    And and, you know, he goes, OK, he's like, yeah, your J-Pop play fields are terrible. I'm like, oh, thanks. That makes me feel good. Why did you hire me? Yeah. But no, he actually gave me a lot of really great advice early on, and it really was the simplicity, and there's more to it, but the simplicity of searching for the anchors that you understand,
    42:52
    fleshing those out, looking what's left, and then starting to prioritize. and and so so it's a very analytical approach and and uh it served me well and i i i i chalk it up to uh greg's influence on me so well and it's done it's done great because i don't see any of your packages and go you know those are terrible they all like i said i feel like they all set a higher standard for what we're starting to see in artwork in pinball in general so you said you're a comic book nerd? Did you have to do much research for Venom or did you already know Venom? Did you know the guy? I grew up before Todd McFarlane started. I was reading before Todd McFarlane started his run on Amazing Spider-Man. I read all through that run. That was me literally getting comic books, begging my parents for a couple bucks so I could get those. And so I read those in real time. I read the original Venom when they did the Venom miniseries.
    44:07
    Mark Bagley did the art, stuff like that. I read all that stuff. I haven't kept up as succinctly as Dwight has. So I still read comics, but I don't have the time. So I have such a backlog. I I'm not joking when I say this. I may have years of backlog of comics. I actually have and have not gotten through. Now, some of those some of the stuff that that this is sort of pulled from, I had read, which is good. Not all of it. So I did actually go back through and sort of catch up on a few aspects. King in Black you know some of that stuff I had not finished I had you know I have the books but I didn't necessarily finish all of it and so it was kind of weird for me to actually go in and like have an understanding but then a few holes and I'm going oh wait a minute what but I got myself up to speed pretty quick and obviously you know it's one of those things where at the end of the day, I hope people do understand that, you know, anyone who worked on this project absolutely loves all the characters.
    45:36
    You know, you don't, at Stern, it's really nice that they don't force people on things and go, well, your job is this, and here's a project, you have to do this. They really do cultivate the creativity, which is fantastic, and it's amazing in that regard. And that's part of the reason why I have continued to work with them as long as I have. Yeah.
    46:04
    Well, and we do want to talk about that, but we'll tease it just a little bit longer. One of the questions I also had, too, was, like you did with Avengers, you had to do the same back glasses for the premium and the Elion denim. Was that just a time constraint or was that, it was absolutely, it was absolutely a time constraint. And, and that was one, I don't know if you know this or not, but on Avengers, it was actually approved with just one back glass. Oh really? And I got done.
    46:37
    Uh, and I said, listen, I think I had like, I don't know, three or four weeks or something. And I said, listen, you know, I think there's still aftermarket stuff to do, but I'm like, listen,
    46:47
    just let me try to come up with something else. And again, both of, both of those, uh, back glasses on Avengers. It's not like I, I, you know, tried to create this, the Sistine Chapel. Like I knew my limitations to a point, but at the same time I had to come up with something else. I said, I'm going to get I'm like my goal from day one. And this goes back to, you know, even working with J-pop was, you know, I look at the you know, like this world. And back then, prices weren't, you know, even what they are now. And I go, these are these are high end pieces of art to me. They always have been. And I, you know, as a kid, I love the artistry of it. I looked at these, you know, machines and was just like, this is this is just so, you know, it's such an incredible thing to be able to do that when I got involved, I said, I want to show that you can do more with it if I can. And, you know, meandering, I shouldn't probably beat a dead horse, but meandering, you know, before I worked with Stern, you know, was a different beast. When I started working with Stern, it was, okay, we've got absolute finite schedules. And by the way, they aren't conducive to be able to do this type of thing, because, again, this is a business where you have, you know, time constraints. And so I really honed in and developed my approach and sort of my way of being able to hit the marks. I can't. And one of those ways is never taking a day off. So there's that. Anyway, that's not a good one. By the way, I'm learning, uh, as I get older, that's not a good one. Yeah.
    48:46
    Well, one of your things that you first pointed out to me when Foo Fighters come out was Gary was under the flipper as a little alien that said, ship it. Is there any other Easter eggs you may have put into Venom or to Foo Fighters that you're, you know, I actually don't set out to do Easter eggs because I feel like unless it, unless it serves a purpose.
    49:13
    And in the case of Gary or Gary, as I like to call him. And in that case, I was literally just trying to make a joke to make Greg laugh. And then Jack and then Tanya and then everyone else. And then, And then it just sort of became one of those things where I'm like, okay, it'll stick in there. So are there, I mean, there always are. I don't know that many are quite as overt as that in that regard. Gotcha. But, yeah, again, time constraints.
    49:51
    You focus on what you can. I mean, I put a lot of stuff into these. Again, I try to have intent. sometimes the intent is is is funny I prefer funny because at the end of the day I would like people to just look at these things and and without even playing them just be happy just feel happiness you know smile and be like this is cool so that's a starting point so yeah when I can when I can get something in there I like to I remember I remember on Godzilla actually just getting Manila on the play field, that wasn't even in the cards, I don't think, at the time. And I just kept talking with Keith, and I'm like, oh, we've got to get this guy in there. Like, and I can't remember. And I don't think he was against it. It was just that there wasn't, like, he just wasn't part of it at that time. But, man, did he become part of it. Oh, yeah, with the whole ball drain sequence. Oh, my goodness. Yeah, Keith. You know, Keith, I've got to give him credit. And I watched all Godzilla movies, and I was a Godzilla fan, and I've watched him over the years many times. But he had to scour through so much over and over again, and he came up with so many good clips throughout that game. And a lot of stuff that didn't even make it in the game and stuff like that. Like, I've got to give him credit. He pours himself into that. I mean, you know, for my, what I do, I pour myself into it, but he has to do so much more, in my opinion. And not that all designers don't do that. I'm not trying to, but in that case, that was a big undertaking for that game, in my opinion. Being able to really nail the vibe and pull the right clips and just sort of get the tone right. I think that's why people, you know, like that game. you know, a lot of it is the, the personality based on sort of how he curated that stuff. Yeah, definitely. I agree. So, well, we should stop teasing everyone. I guess, you know, typically we don't ask you, you know, are you doing another game for Stern because you're contracted out, but an announcement just came out today. Why don't you tell us what, what was that announcement? oh well so apparently uh i just found out i guess i'm a stern employee now i didn't see just found out just like oh no that's not true that's not true it's been in the works for a little while i'd actually been asked uh you know here and there i think i was i always told everyone like like george and greg i'm like ah you guys couldn't get the same work out of me if I were, you know, if I was an employee, which is kind of hard to get. That's what that's what you were trying to do, right? Well, no, well, no, I wasn't actually. I was being dead serious because I like the freedom to be able to walk away. I liked being able to pick and choose other projects. But what happened was over time.
    53:00
    I started to actually like these projects better than other projects, And I started turning away other projects to work on more projects like this. And it's and it wasn't it had nothing to do with with, you know, with, you know, money or or time or anything like that. It had everything to do with the people and the projects. Like I have made a lot of really good friends at Stern over the years. And I have so much respect for everyone that I've worked with. at one point it kind of hit me and I go, well, I'd be kind of stupid not to take an opportunity to work with these people. But then the real kicker came when somebody said the word paid vacation.
    53:49
    That's when you realize you're like, yeah, I work myself way too hard to be nice to have a paid vacation. Yeah. And then somebody said, then, then they said benefits. And I go, what? Those still exist.
    54:02
    No, listen, The person to thank at the end of the day, and there's really two that I sort of put in tandem.
    54:12
    Actually, there's a lot of them. But directly, it's Greg for, you know, basically giving me enough rope to prove that I won't hang myself over these projects over the years and, you know, giving me these opportunities, you know, regardless of what a licensor says, art directors can decide, you know, if that's going to work or not. And he was he always had faith in me and he's always been super supportive.
    54:48
    And and he's always looked out for me. And along with that goes George Gomez. Same thing. You know, both of those guys.
    54:59
    I've actually made me at times feel almost like I'm good at what I do. Which I question. But but. But yeah. But then there's a, there's a lot of other people. I mean, you know, you know, obviously Jody Dankberg has gotten like the greatest licenses, you know, and you can't argue with that. Yeah. Yeah. And, and, and yeah. And he continues to, I mean, you know, and, and, uh, you know, he's, he's been, uh, he's a good friend of mine and, and, uh, you know, he's always like, there's times where he'll be like, Hey, I'm thinking about, uh, you know, this, this, or this, many of those interests. Yeah. You know, or whatever, just like off the cuff, you know, like occasionally. And I'm always like, you know, it's one of those things where it's like, first off, I have to say this, I'm not the guy for everything. So don't worry people who don't like me. I won't do your favorite game.
    55:58
    For instance, I would not do Back to the Future. And it's not that I don't love, you know, that era and those movies.
    56:12
    I'm just totally against doing any game based on a movie that involves two-thirds of the run time with incest jokes. Anyway, no, that's not entirely true. No, I'm just not the right guy for it because I know a better guy for it. and I know someone that would be better at it. And so whatever. But, again, I don't know if that game ever gets made. I don't know if it does, if it's Stern. I've heard all kinds of wonderful rumors.
    56:44
    Those are plenty in this hobby or in this industry. Yeah. By the way, when I make that joke, guys, Stern does not have Back to the Future.
    56:56
    Trust me. Trust me on that one. But anyway, I can make other jokes. You're going to see yourself on Nap Arcade in a couple days, and it's going to be like, I hope so. Bob Getty teases back to the future. It must be true. Speaking of which, I saw that Kaneda guy posted something about Keith Elwin having two games next year. And I just want to say, all I've got to say to that is, only two, Chris? anyway oh no that's i'm totally that's for map arcade okay uh i'm just i'm just trying to cause trouble no no believe me i'm not i'm not a talker but no at the end of the day yeah i'm i'm really excited and i'm really i'm honored to be a part of uh the legacy at stern i mean uh you know what Gary built and maintained over the years is you know not a lot of people will get to say they worked at Stern And you know it a cool thing I'm not one that, you know, I don't really care about labels. I don't really care too much about, you know, they ask me, like, what do you want to be called? Like, what's your position or something? Somebody asked me that. And I said, I don't know, employee? Like, I don't care. Like, you know, like I don't I don't need a label, you know, like that doesn't prove my hopefully my work speaks for itself. And no matter what I do, people just go, oh, he's the guy who did that art. They don't go, oh, he's the junior. I don't know what the hell. I don't even know what my I don't even know what my what I'm actually called. But but that's OK. It doesn't matter. But, yeah, no, I'm very thankful. Very excited. And hopefully I will continue to keep up the level of quality and hopefully wherever I can, I'm going to help pass along things I've learned to other artists at Stern and hopefully help them make their lives easier, too, if I can. Definitely. I don't know that I can, by the way. I know that like with Jack Danger, his thing is meme master or something like that. You should just be the man who makes the chimichangas.
    59:30
    That's what you do on your business card. Yeah, that's not bad, actually. That's not bad. I'm okay with that. I would be fine with any title that, you know, I'd be fine with just about anything, really.
    59:49
    You know, president. No, anyway. I kid, I kid. But, yeah, no, I think that's legit now. And it's been a long time coming. And for years I said, you don't want to hire me. And then over time I just, you know, I just really fell in love with everything. So I kind of, yeah, as long as people will continue to buy stuff and they don't hate me, hopefully I'll continue to get to do it. Sounds good. Well, I've taken up plenty of your time and I know you said you've been up since like four o'clock this morning. so I think I've got weird I used to I grew up my parents my dad worked construction and I would go out with him especially in the summers and on weekends so I tend to wake up early usually not 4am but when I do wake up early and I go oh I'm only going to maybe get another hour of sleep I try to just get moving because if I don't I'm just going to feel like just drain the rest of the day and then my, my brain doesn't work well.
    61:05
    I mean, you could argue it doesn't anyway. So there's that, but, but listen, before we go, I have to ask because last time it's been a long time since we talked. Yeah.
    61:18
    Any good video games you've played in the past year? What's your favorite? My favorite right now. Well, legend is Zelda. Tears of the kingdom is amazing. It is. And the Ninja Turtles, that new one that Shredder's Revenge, if you haven't tried that one. Oh, man, that one is amazing as well. You know, they actually that company approached me about doing the key art for it. Really? But I was I was working on pinball and I couldn't do it. But then I came back and they had me do like a limited edition artwork for the the soundtrack, the actual physical records. I actually have that. I got one of those discs, and the artwork looks amazing. I love it. Oh, nice. Nice, nice. I'm a Ninja Turtles fan, too, so I was pretty stoked when you did the Ninja Turtles artwork. Oh, no. Those guys, when they reached out and we had Zoom calls and stuff like that, I'm like, oh, there's no way I'm going to have time. And I felt really bad. And legitimately, I felt bad, but I'm like, there's no way, because the project I was working on at the time for Stern, I'm like, I can't cut corners. I'm like and I would not be able to to, you know, do less than what I think needed to be done. And so like it was it was quite a conundrum, but it was it was kind of an eye opening experience, too, for me, because I'm like, oh, this is this is interesting because I'm choosing I'm choosing Stern over this, which is which was which is kind of said something to me. Right. Like, yeah, you know, it showed where, you know, number one, my loyalties were, but also, you know, why was I doing that? And so that sort of started some thought processes. But you're leaving out one of the best games I've played this year. Okay, what is it?
    63:09
    Resident Evil 4 Remake. Believe it or not. Oh, my goodness. You know, I'm not even, I don't know. I like Resident Evil games. They're not the greatest. But the remake, those remakes that Capcom has been doing are good. But, I mean, 3 is, I never liked the original 3, so the 3 remake was eh. But 2 and 4 have been fantastic. And you had actually recommended Marvel's Guardians of the Galaxy to me, and that game was amazing too. Isn't that surprising? I never would have thought, and it's not that I thought it wouldn't be good, but I kind of assume when it comes to video games, because when it comes to video games and comic books, there's been a decline over the years in quality on some of those things. And you go, well, I don't know.
    63:58
    But I'm thinking of that Avengers game that came out in particular. Oh, yeah. Yeah, it looked great, but it just wasn't a lot of fun. But, yeah, no, that one was fun.
    64:09
    So I was an early adopter of the Steam Deck. Same here. Yeah, big fan. I actually pulled the trigger on the ASUS ally, the ROG ally. Nice. If you like the Steam Deck and you can handle yourself in Windows, you're going to like it more than the Steam Deck. Really? Oh, yeah. Performance-wise and the fact that you can actually play a lot of the PC games that you can't on the Steam Deck. Yeah. It's sort of a... I'm not saying I would... Actually, I'd probably wait for the Steam Deck 2 if you are inclined, because the Steam Deck OS is so great. But anyway.
    64:54
    So that's literally the only way I get to play anything anymore. So I think I played through Hi-Fi Rush. Okay.
    65:04
    I couldn't start Tears of the Kingdom until I was done with Venom. But I snuck in an hour or two in the late evenings here and there. And I've got to get back to it, actually, because I got – yeah, whatever. This game is such a masterpiece. Street Fighter VI, obviously I'm a Street Fighter guy, so I love that as well.
    65:32
    I can't get into fighting games. I enjoy them, but I always get my butt handed to me. So it's like I can't button mash fast enough, I guess, or do all the combos. I get it. No, I totally get it. The older I get, and I'm 20 plus 26, and the older I get, you know, like, you know, even playing like a Call of Duty or something like that, like, my tactics are different. I used to be head on, run in there, take everybody out, you know, boom, boom, boom. And now I snipe. Anyway, you know. Yeah, I get you. I'm an old man. I have to keep my distance. But, no, I only ask because last time we talked, I know you were a big gamer as well. And, obviously, there's been some good stuff. Hopefully, there'll be, you know, even better stuff. I'm looking forward to Alan Wake 2. Yep. And Starfield has me interested. I'm hoping that it turns out okay. And, obviously, Spider-Man 2 for PlayStation. Yeah. Those are the three games that I'm focused on for the rest of the year, in theory.
    66:48
    Well, I know one game that you talked about was Tony Hawk's Pro Skater when you came on. Yeah, I love that. Oh, man, if we could get it. You should put in a good word down there at Stern to get a Pro Skater. Listen, I've talked about it endlessly. Don't get me started. No, I've talked about it endlessly because I think it's so ripe for it. Oh, yeah. you know what's funny is well I don't want to say that because I don't want to pick favorites I love all the designers there but I can think of two designers because of two different reasons by the way that could do that game justice I think but whatever all of them could don't get me wrong but I think two of them I know for a fact are totally into it so there's that but yeah no I think that would be great. I've said this before. You know, we've, we kind of live in a world now where, where it's media overload, overload, like where, where like, you know, literally we, we all carry around a personal device. That's just media consumption. I mean, like, even though we're using it for communication, it's really media communication at the same time. And, and so I go, oh man, you know, like we're, we're, you know, we've got The comic books are popular, which, by the way, when I was in high school and when I read comics, people weren't going, oh, you're awesome because you read comics. They were saying the opposite.
    68:17
    So the fact that, like, I remember going to my, I think it was like my 15 or 20 year high school reunion. Obviously, I don't remember that well, so I'm lying, apparently. But no, it was one of those. It was one of those. And there was this one person, and I'm not going to even give gender on it because I don't want them to hear this and get their feelings hurt. By the way, no one's going to hear this, that I went to high school with. But I'm trying to be nice. Except for Patterson, right? No, no, yeah, it was Jeff Patterson. No, no.
    68:49
    And they were all talking about, like, the latest, like, Marvel movie at that time. And I'm like, oh, that's funny. I'm like, that's awesome that you like that, because I remember that, you know, like, at one time, and I had, like, I think it was a Spider-Man shirt on or something. And you guys were, like, making fun of me and calling me a little kid and all this stuff like that. And they got angry, like, well, but that was then. And I'm like, well, I said I'm not trying to make a big deal out of it. I'm just saying, like, isn't it funny how things have changed? And now, like, you guys are like, this is cool. I'm like, it was cool back then, too. Like you would have loved it and probably enjoyed the movie more now had you actually been a nerd. But whatever. So anyway, that's not where I was going with this. It's just an anecdote. But no, and it's not a good one. There's no point to it. But I think the next place to farm, because we got the comic books, we got television shows, we got movies. And how many classic movies are made in the last decade? Oh, yeah. Not very many. maybe I mean who knows we'll see that we'll find out in 20 years but video games that's where you go definitely I've said before the one thing I would love to do is mine like Sega or something like that right like do like you know like you could there's so many properties you know there's got to what's Sega doing they don't do much anyway Space Harrier anything no no I'd be down for anything But, yeah, so that's my whole thing. I'm like, I think eventually we'll get there. I mean, we're kind of getting there now, aren't we? Like, is there any? I'm trying to think. What was, are there any video game pinball machines at this time? Obviously, there's been Street Fighter. There's been Super Mario, stuff like that. Or what goes for Tycoon, if you really want to. Oh, that's true. That's good. That's a good point. Yeah. That actually might be. That's what ruled it for us. Well, Big Buck Hunter as well. that's a good point roller coaster tycoon who would have thought what about uh isn't there that like one there's like a you drive a semi truck in the snow what's that one called that make a great pinball game you just make goat simulator the pinball game actually i'd be okay with that lots of air balls anyway yeah i gotta be honest have you played goat simulator 3 the latest one i haven't is it they actually made it a game now like like before you know it's nonsense now it's nonsense with purpose yeah i gotta be honest it's actually pretty enjoyable to meander kind of like uh what's that the deer simulator or whatever but he can walk on two legs with a gun and he yeah it's better it's more refined than that in regards to what can be done but it's you're right. You're, you're in the same wheelhouse there. Um, it's very similar. Um, visually though, I don't know what I, I don't know what you could do with a game like that. Um, but it's interesting. Anyway. Okay. That's it. We'll, we'll have more video game conversations, uh, off camera. So we don't annoy people. Okay. Well, are you going to expo this year? Yes. I think it's the, the only show. I think I actually, no, I take that back. I'm supposed to go to the, the tilt amusement thing in a couple of weeks here. Okay. Yeah. Or what is it? The tilt game? Uh, the night. I can't think of what it's called.
    72:25
    Hellgate party. Yeah. I think I'm going with, with Tanya and Jack. Nice. So the whole team of three of us will be there. That's a, obviously there's many that won't be because the whole team would be all those people I talked about before that you have to get on your podcast. Uh, and we'll talk about that. um sounds great yeah other than that no i'm going to expo that's the only thing that's on the docket and uh unless they tell me i was supposed to go to comic-con by the way san diego comic-con for the them thing but i'm not a lot of fun uh i'm not fun and i don't i don't like to travel uh you can't drink gary under the table huh i know i'm not fun like that at all i wish i was And I wish that I – I have lots of issues, especially in planes. My last few flights were so traumatic that I just – it's really hard. So, like, I'll do whatever I can to get out of flying, whatever I can now. It's very unhealthy. You shouldn't be that way, but not a lot you can do. Anyway, and, again, I'm just not fun. Because I look at it, you know, it would have been like, oh, you get to do a Comic-Con panel? Like, you're legit. Like, that's what my friends would say, like, who are artists. And I would say, but I'd have to fly, and I don't want to fly.
    73:56
    So stupid. Anyway, that's a whole other podcast. Well, we appreciate you coming on. If someone wants to get a hold of you, what's the best way to get a hold of you? if you even want someone bothering you. I know Keith's like, no.
    74:12
    Oh, well, so you can reach me via Keith Elwin. That seals it. No, I still have zombieyetti.com, and I've got a contact form on there or whatever, or you can just email, you know, whatever. I've got a stern email now, but it's not zombieyetti. It's Jeremy Packer, which is not as cool sounding.
    74:44
    But that's okay. It is funny, though. Like, your name is so – Zombie Yeti is so synonymous that when you do say Jeremy Packer, people are like, who's that? Yeah, I know.
    74:56
    It's not very cool. And people are like, who's that? And then, as you can see, I just – I got all my hair and beard trimmed to look like an adult. Nice. So I got to tell you this one. I swear. And you can stop recording because we'll bore people with that. But I got to tell you this one. So I went.
    75:16
    And, again, I'm not trying to hurt anyone's feelings here who may have cut my hair. But I went to get a haircut.
    75:25
    And it's a friend of the family who has this business. And she's cut my hair a billion times. and uh it's for some reason i don't know what was miscommunicated but i walked out of there and i looked like uh like uh steve perry from like 1985 or something and i go what happened like i don't understand what happened and like listen i don't mind looking goofy because i am by default but uh but i just really and i'm like oh i can't do this and so the next day i went to uh barber and I said, hey, make me look like I live in the now.
    76:08
    And so he cut all my hair off. Anyway, it'll grow out. Don't worry, it'll grow out. I will not show you photos either of what it looked like before, but it was not a good look for me.
    76:23
    That's impressive you took photos. It's one of those ones that you usually throw away and you pretend it never happened. Oh, no, I had to show my wife before I got home. I'm like, oh, prepare yourself.
    76:35
    That's awesome. Well, if you want to get a hold of us, we are Loser Kid Pinball Podcast at gmail.com. We're on all the socials, Twitter, YouTube, Facebook. I guess it's not Twitter anymore. Sorry, X.
    76:48
    I don't understand that part of it. It's all at Loser Kid Pinball. Check out our merch on silverballswag.com slash Loser Kid. I'm wearing the George Fisher Don't Panic Flip shirt. it's very awesome you should go get yourself one as well all right well we thank you jeremy for coming on and it's always great to have you on and uh i guess we'll see everyone in two weeks