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Triple Drain Pinball Podcast Episode 73 - Does it HAVE to move?!

Triple Drain Pinball Podcast·podcast_episode·2h 6m·analyzed·May 26, 2026
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Analysis

claude-haiku-4-5-20251001 · $0.035

TL;DR

Triple Drain debates Transformers' missing mech and the role of interactive vs cosmetic mechanics in pinball design.

Summary

Triple Drain Pinball discusses the newly released Stern Transformers pinball machine, focusing heavily on the controversial decision to remove a transforming Optimus Prime mechanic late in development due to reliability concerns. The hosts explore the broader design philosophy around mechanical features—whether they need to be interactive with the ball, the challenge of keeping mechs engaging after repeated plays, and how home collector use differs from location-based arcade design. They praise Transformers' code quality and ruleset while acknowledging disappointment about the missing transformation feature.

Key Claims

  • Optimus Prime on Transformers was designed to transform but was pulled late in development due to reliability/consistency issues.

    high confidence · Joel and Tom discuss based on marketing materials showing the transformation insert that no longer exists; they note tire tracks on Optimus indicating truck form design.

  • Stern's marketing materials and official website images showed the transformation mechanic before it was removed.

    high confidence · Joel: 'The pictures on their official website show an insert that's not there anymore. Like, this was a last-minute call.'

  • Transformers has exceptionally well-designed code with thoughtful rule progression and callbacks to other games' design principles.

    high confidence · Travis discusses Elizabeth Gieske's code design, noting progressive thinking from point A to B to C, mini-punishments for wrong shots, and inspired (not copied) elements from other games.

  • Mechanical features in pinball were traditionally designed for location play (short repeated plays) rather than home collector use (hundreds of plays).

    high confidence · Tyler discusses how pinball design philosophy originated from location-based gameplay and hasn't fully adapted to home user expectations.

  • Pirates of the Caribbean had its three spinning discs and chest opening/closing features removed but still commands high secondary market prices.

    high confidence · Multiple hosts reference this as a parallel example of feature removal but continued collector demand.

  • The Optimus Prime mech likely would have blocked the vertical upkick shot and required a two-step interaction (bash to stand up, then scoop).

    medium confidence · Tom's analysis based on playfield layout and art showing tire tracks: 'I think it blocked the vertical upkick. So I think it was probably a, you bash him, he stands up, he's now not blocking it, now you have to scoop.'

  • Reliability issues with interactive mechs are constant irritants that don't fade with familiarity, unlike the novelty of seeing a mech move.

    high confidence · Tom: 'What you do notice is a broken mech. What you do notice is a mech or a mech where switches aren't registering... That is constant.'

Notable Quotes

  • “Can I just like it? Am I allowed to like it?”

    Joel (host)@ 4:37 — Defensive response to accusations of shilling when speaking positively about Transformers; reflects community dynamics around content creator criticism.

  • “The pictures on their official website show an insert that's not there anymore. Like, this was a last-minute call.”

    Joel@ 9:43 — Direct evidence that transformation mechanic was intentionally removed from final product; confirms marketing mismatch.

  • “I feel for the design team, Elizabeth Gieske, Elliot Eismin, to have that changed at the end. That's a gut punch.”

    Joel@ 9:53 — Acknowledges designer perspective on late-stage mechanic removal; shows empathy for design team impact.

  • “What you do notice is a broken mech... That is constant. And that doesn't go away.”

    Tom@ 8:41 — Core argument that reliability issues with interactive mechs are worse than loss of novelty; justifies design trade-off.

  • “If the code is fun... From a game theory standpoint, if the code's not fun, then it's like, what does it matter what the ball does if everything else around it is boring to the player?”

    Travis@ 16:48 — Articulates the philosophical position that code quality and gameplay depth matter more than mechanical novelty.

  • “We might have dodged a bullet here... Gameplay-wise, we might have dodged a bullet here.”

    Tom@ 20:36 — Suggests that removing an unreliable blocking mech may have improved actual gameplay experience despite thematic loss.

  • “pinball really originated as a location-based game... However, what I find very unique about pinball is not much has changed in terms of adjusting to a home user.”

    Tyler — Identifies design philosophy mismatch between location arcade play and home collector use.

Entities

Stern PinballcompanyElizabeth GieskepersonElliot EismanpersonGeorge GomezpersonTravispersonJoelpersonTomperson

Signals

  • ?

    product_concern: Optimus Prime transformation mechanic was removed from Transformers late in development due to reported reliability and consistency issues with the mechanical function.

    high · Tom: 'Something about it wasn't reliable. Something wasn't consistent, and so they had to make the tough call.' Joel: official marketing materials showing removed insert on website.

  • ?

    design_philosophy: Discussion about how interactive mechanical features remain engaging through approximately 10 plays but lose novelty impact after 20-100 repeated plays, while unreliability issues persist indefinitely.

    high · Multiple hosts discuss novelty wearing off vs. constant broken mech irritation; Tyler proposes 10-play engagement threshold; Dennis Creasel observation cited.

  • ?

    gameplay_signal: Transformers features exceptionally well-designed code with progressive rule structure, mini-punishments for suboptimal play, and inspired (not copied) design patterns from other acclaimed games.

    high · Travis: detailed analysis of Elizabeth Gieske's rule design approach; 'progressive thinking that gets you from point A to point B to point C'; 'lots of callbacks to other games that had excellent rules.'

  • ?

    industry_signal: Pinball machines are designed primarily for location-based short-play scenarios (hundreds of players, limited plays each) but home collector market has grown post-COVID to become majority user base, creating design expectations misalignment.

    high · Tyler: 'pinball really originated as a location-based game... However, what I find very unique about pinball is not much has changed in terms of adjusting to a home user.'

  • $

Transcript

groq_whisper · $0.378

0:00
We, we, we're, we're three guys who's like the talking ball. So we came up with a clout of our name. We're going to try to sound the talking ball. And we call ourselves Triple Thrain, Triple Thrain, Triple Thrain. We're Triple Thrain. You know, something about that song just, it makes me feel all giddy inside. Isn't that great? I hope that's shared with, I hope other people feel that. So, thank you Jason all those years back for making us that song. Because we, it's great, and for people that don't know, we don't edit that in. We listen to it. I hit the button and we listen to it every episode. So it does, it's great. It's a great way to start. It is Memorial Day, May 25th. We all had a three-day weekend. And hopefully you guys feel good. Refresh for a weekend. Oh, Tom doesn't work Fridays. Yeah, he's got life is great. You got weekends? Be a dentist. Damn it. I chose the wrong job.
1:10
Dude, life is good, man. Life is good. It's great to be outside. It's great to hang out with some family and eat food and just get a sunburn and all that stuff. So everything's good. I'm not apologizing. I'm not apologizing today for this being a lot. I'm not going to go down that road. That's what I do every episode. It hasn't been two months. It's been like a little more than a month, but we have a game release. We have a game release and we're excited to talk about it. I thought you were going to apologize for the non-transforming Optimus Prime. Just diving right in, Tom. Just diving right into it. He still has to score! Thank you for the Rayden Stern Pinball. I did not say that.
1:52
I would like to put that out there. No, I want to thank people. I want to thank our Patreon supporters. I don't know why you're still supporting us, but I really appreciate it. Honestly, we really – because we make, like – I'm active on there. I wasn't active for the past month, but I'm back now. Exactly. We're rather inconsistent, but the fact that I feel like we have loyal supporters, and that's so great. Here's why you want to do it. We're three guys. Jack D'Apoo, White Pinball. Yes. And we came with a silver name. Thank you, because I was, it was going to get bad. That's just all the reasons. It was going to get bad. Speaking of support, I do, this is a call to action, everybody, and you roll your eyes all you want, but our dear friend Tom, who we love, who we love so much, okay? He's working his little buns off, trying to get, what is it, Partner Plus, Partner Pro. Partner Plus. Partner Plus on Twitch. And to get Partner Plus on Twitch, he needs 100 subs. It can't be gifted. It can't be prime. You got to pull out your pocketbook and you got to pay the $5.99. That was just right. And you just really have to do it for this month because just one time. Here's the thing. They make you do it for three consecutive months. And somehow the last two months I've did the requirement. So now you're right there. I'm 80 out of 100 right now. I need 20 more subs. Yep. So right before the episode, I did it. I got on there and I subbed it. So I pushed it. I got them on to the 80 mark. We need 20. We need 20 of you listeners to buy Tom a cup of coffee. I will kiss Joel in a photograph if you can make this happen. Yes, we need 20 of them. That's it. And it's May 25th. If you hear this on June, you missed it. You missed it. So if you hear this in the month of May, he needs 20. Fox City's Pinball. Fox City's Pinball on Twitch. Give him a little love. And if it doesn't happen, that's okay. I'll just go into depression.
  • Cosmetic (non-interactive) mechs are effective at adding visual appeal and are proven by recent Barrels of Fun and Spooky releases.

    medium confidence · Multiple hosts cite Evil Dead (tape player), cabin chair, King Kong, and Pokemon as examples where cosmetic mechs work without ball interaction.

  • @ 21:08
  • “If the mech is still cool at that point, then I think it's a good mech. But I think any mech, you're going to get tired of it after seeing it a hundred plus times in a row in the same month.”

    Tyler@ 23:08 — Proposes a 10-play threshold for evaluating whether a mechanic remains engaging; contextualizes mech fatigue.

  • Tyler
    person
    Transformersgame
    Pirates of the Caribbeangame
    Medieval Madnessgame
    Godzillagame
    Jawsgame
    King Konggame
    Pokemongame
    Harry Pottergame
    Dunegame
    Evil Deadgame
    Elton Johngame
    John Wickgame
    Labyrinthgame
    Dennis Creaselperson
    Guns N' Rosesgame

    market_signal: Games with removed features (Pirates of the Caribbean spinning discs/chest opening) maintain high secondary market demand and prices despite loss of advertised mechanical elements.

    high · Joel and Joel: 'Pirates of the Caribbean, those games are going for ridiculous amount of money with those features being pulled out.'

  • ?

    design_innovation: Discussion of design spectrum from purely cosmetic mechs (Evil Dead tape player, Pokemon Pikachu) to fully integrated interactive mechs (Godzilla building) to thematic integrated mechanics (Harry Potter staircase, Guns N' Roses drumstick habitrail).

    high · Extended discussion comparing mech types across games; Travis/hosts debate whether all mechs must interact with ball or if 'window dressing' cosmetic elements are sufficient.

  • ?

    product_concern: Official Stern marketing materials and website images depicted Optimus Prime transformation feature that was removed before final release, creating customer expectation mismatch.

    high · Joel: 'The pictures on their official website show an insert that's not there anymore. Like, this was a last-minute call.'

  • ?

    design_philosophy: Interactive mechanical features that directly interact with balls (blocking shots, requiring hits) present higher failure/reliability risks than cosmetic or diverter-only mechanics, affecting long-term gameplay consistency.

    high · Tom: discussion of glider mech failures on Transformers Premium; Dune worm failure leaves game unplayable; John Wick crate sometimes impedes progress.

  • ?

    community_signal: Content creators report being accused of being 'shills' for speaking positively about machines, perceived as being paid or biased rather than genuinely enjoying games.

    high · Joel/Travis: 'if you speak positively about a pinball machine, happy internet just says, shill'; Travis works for pinball company so more vulnerable to accusation.

  • ?

    product_strategy: Discussion of how premium/LE editions are differentiated primarily by additional cosmetic mechs that may not meaningfully improve core gameplay, potentially discouraging upgrade paths.

    medium · Joel discussion of Pro vs Premium buying decisions; glider mech failures on Premium vs simpler Pro designs; Godzilla Pro/Premium choice differences.

  • ?

    content_signal: Tom seeking 100 paying Twitch subs (5 per month minimum) for Partner Plus status; podcast hosts creating call-to-action for community support; Fox City's Pinball on Twitch.

    high · Explicit discussion: 'he needs 100 subs... he needs 20 more subs... To get Partner Plus... if you hear this on June, you missed it.'

  • ?

    personnel_signal: Late-stage removal of major mechanical feature (Optimus transformation) had emotional/professional impact on design team members Elizabeth Gieske and Elliot Eisman.

    medium · Joel: 'I feel for the design team, Elizabeth Gieske, Elliot Eisman, to have that changed at the end. That's a gut punch.'

  • 3:59
    That's it. That's our work. That's the only thing we're showing today. We can go right back to Tom's talk on Transformers. Now we're going to shill Transformers.
    4:09
    Speaking of shill, okay, we've all released content on Transformers in the last year. And what I've learned is if you speak positively about a pinball machine, happy internet just says, shill. Like, they just assume, oh, the only reason he would have any positive thoughts on this pinball machine is because clearly he's making money or trying to be nice to his friends. It's like, can I just like it? Am I allowed to like it? Did anybody hear Joel's take on Halloween? I mean, he practically took a dump on it. I couldn't get the ball up the middle ramp onto the upper playfields. And guess what? Spooky, Luke, Bug, they still talk to me. They're still great guys. They've gone on to make some amazing pinball machines. Like, it can happen. I used to get accused all the time on this for fence sitting. I've had some hot takes every once in a while. If somebody's going to be a shill, you can call Travis a shill because he works for a pinball company, specifically the pinball company. My kids cannot eat or go to school unless you guys get off your butts and end up buying some Transformers right now. No, that's fine. Travis, you can call them a shill all you want. A little tiny boy over here and myself, we just like pinball.
    5:34
    Can we like pinball? I don't know. That's enough. I don't know. I mean, I liked what I saw from a design standpoint.
    5:44
    So how do you – okay, we'll decide. Where do we even start with Transformers? Let's talk about it. Transformers is out. It came out. There was a leak before, so we all saw a little bit of before. And the big question – And let's be honest. Yeah, Optimus Prime looked like Fat Albert. Optimus Prime from the leaked angle looked interesting. And there was a lot of like, what's going on? Well, maybe it's mid-transform. You know, maybe they put too much oil in them and it was floated. It looked interesting. And then the game came out. And that's when we realized very quickly Optimus Prime doesn't transform.
    6:27
    So I will be honest to the guy that thinks I'm a shill. Was I disappointed to hear that Optimus Prime didn't transform? Absolutely, I was disappointed. Absolutely. I didn't care. Oh, okay, Tom. Well, I mean, the last game didn't have a transforming transformer in it, did it? No, but last game wasn't Transformers. No, no, no, no, no, no. Yeah, the D&D one. George Gomer's one, got it. You had Optimus Prime in the middle and he got hit in the nuts.
    7:04
    So we moved down. And then you had Starscream that moved like this. And then you had Ironhide and he did this.
    7:18
    Well, if you're wondering what type of... This is audio. I'm just doing a little jig over here. It's great. You got to watch on YouTube to see that suggestion. Yeah, like and subscribe on YouTube.
    7:31
    So that's a good point. I love the hysteria. I love the historic aspect of this. I didn't even think about that. And can you, Tom, were you all active on Pinside when that one was released? Did people lose their mind that there was nothing that transformed when that game came out? I don't think so, but I don't really remember. That was a long time ago. That was like 14 years ago or something like that. I was just a young pinball player back then.
    7:59
    So, yes. What I personally disappoint, of course, I like mechs. I like things moving. But it's really made me think a lot this week. And Dennis Creasel actually said something on the pinball show that I liked, which is, you know, moments are awesome. Like seeing the Godzilla building go down. It's awesome. And it's awesome for the first, you know, 10, 20 times. And then after that, it's not as awesome. It's not that it's bad, but it does take a little bit of time and you just don't notice it as much. I will tell you what you do notice is a broken mech. What you do notice is a mech or a mech where switches aren't registering. Like you do notice that and that doesn't go away. That is constant. And so the vibe that I'm getting, there's no official anything from Stern, but the vibe that I'm getting was it looks like that mech did transform, and late in the process, something about it wasn't reliable. Something wasn't reliable, something wasn't consistent, and so they had to make the tough call of we don't want to put out an unreliable product that's going to cause more problems down the road, so let's just, we're going to be safe here and pull it. And honestly, I bet Pinball manufacturers do this all the time, and we don't even know it. I bet that happens all the time, and we don't even know it. And yet, here we are. We do know this one because it's Transformers, and it looks like it transforms. And unfortunately, the marketing material that was released does kind of hint or show that it at one point did transform. Like, this was a last-minute call. I don't think it just hints. It literally shows it. It had transformed. The pictures on their official website show an insert that's not there anymore. Like, this was a last-minute call. And I feel for them. I feel for the design team, Elizabeth Gieske, Elliot Eisman, to have that changed at the end. That's a gut punch. I feel for George Gomez to have to probably make that call, you know, that, hey, we got to do the right thing here. That reminds me of Pirates when the three spinning discs were pulled. That's a great example. The chest opening and closing was pulled. It's a gut punch. It's a gut punch to everybody involved. But now that we've said all that, please don't ignore. And yet, Pirates of the Caribbean, those games are going for ridiculous amount of money with those features being pulled out. A hundred percent. And that's what I'm saying. What I hate about all of this is people have just, they just, it's hard stop. It's like Transformers Machine without a transforming mech, I'm out. And it's like, can you, why not, like, please don't ignore the rest of the game because the rest of the game looks awesome. Like, I am so excited to play this game. I have not played it. Travis has. So we're going to tune in to Travis here. We're going to hear a little Travis talks here on his experiences because I haven't touched the game yet, but I've watched a lot of gameplay. Looking at this layout, dynamic is a very dynamic layout. Very excited to see what it does. And what else? The other mechs that are in the game look awesome. So it's just, to me, don't count out an entire pinball machine for one aspect. And for some people, that is a definitive must-be-out. It's like Led Zeppelin not having Stairway to Heaven. I'm out! It's like, well, maybe that's not the best example. Led Zeppelin isn't the greatest game. Ray Day did the best he could. Oh! Yeah. Oh, you don't like, you like Gose Epple? I like Gose Epple. Okay. Is it the greatest game? Shits good. It does shoot. It does shoot well. Would you have wanted like a massive stairway mech in that game?
    11:48
    I mean, if it worked out, maybe. All the way to heaven, dude. That stairway went all the way. No. All right, Travis, you've played.
    12:00
    Travis, you have played. You've done it. You've played Transformers. What is the general public that all of us that have just looked at pictures and watched a few little, what are we missing? What are you feeling? What are your thoughts? I mean, it plays great, I think. Chill, chill. He's just selling the game. Chill. This is not real. Okay, go ahead. Sorry. I mean, so here's the tough part. It's like, what do we want to talk about when it comes to Transformers? Do we want to talk about theme? Do we want to talk about Optimus Prime? Do we want to just talk about just the layout? We've talked enough about offense, bro. We've talked enough. So, okay. We've moved past it. Yeah. So let's face facts. Obviously, you know, it not transforming sucks, right? There's no way around it. And that would be cool if it accepted a ball or is obviously going to be integrated into the code in some form, obviously a major way because, you know, it relights your multiball. There's like a progressive jackpot build there that seems like. There's shots there, obviously. So I think overall, outside of that, when I look at the totality of the rest of the game, I've said this on some of the other content I've done, it was a lot of fun playing it. I thoroughly enjoyed it. And there's just, guys, there's so much code that's already there and so many fun rules that are already there and well thought out to where it's not. But the easiest way to explain this to people that if you're newer to pinball or you're trying to conceptualize what actual good code is, because I know we've talked about this before in previous podcasts, it is like when you are starting to play a mode, you can tell it's well thought out.
    13:42
    And it's progressive thinking that gets you from point A to point B to point C that chooses the way Elizabeth, not Emily, Elizabeth. I misspoke before the podcast and here we are. So, Giski, I apologize. I just got to take a shot at Joel. I apologize. He was just thinking about his golf cart. That's all. Go ahead, Tyler. Keep talking. Yeah.
    14:11
    But at the same time, it has the hallmarks of what Elizabeth's code and rules usually are, right? To where she has some stuff in there to where you hit the wrong shot, you'll get a mini punishment for it. We saw that before in previous games. And then there's a lot of callbacks to other games. I don't want to spoil it too much, but a lot of callbacks to other games that had excellent rules and excellent structure where she's pulled it into Transformers but made it her own. So it's not like it's a direct rip and copy and stuff or anything like that. But I think it's kind of like that book to where it's still like an artist. I don't know if you guys have heard that book before to where basically what it talks about is, is that if you are able to see things that people do at a high level and you ignore the things that they do at a lower level or average level and you just pick at what you know they excel at and you do that across the whole board and you start formulating ideas of your own and you start pulling it into what you do to where, again, not a direct copy or anything like that, but it's inspired by that. That's the gist of what I'm saying here. So you can tell that there's things that are inspired by other games that have done excellent code and excellent rules decision and excellent things to make you want to explore different parts of the play field or make you want to play a certain mode over and over again. So what's unique about this game, I can tell it's kind of pulled some of those concepts and those ideas, but there's lots in here that you want to keep doing over and over again. It's not just one thing over and over again. And that's kind of the difference. Like, Joel, you hinted at it earlier that, you know, when you're talking about using the same mech multiple times, right? And you've heard Tom and I say that a bunch. We've said that about Medieval Madness before. You know, it's just one of the things that people don't realize that if you play a game a few hundred times and you see the same thing over and over again, you'll get tired of it, regardless of how great the game is. And that goes for any game, even like the Godzilla building or anything else. You just tend to skip through and try to get to the next thing. But with this, it feels like now it has the rules integrated in such a way that you want to play certain things over and over again. And the rules aren't broken out of the gate. The rules are fully well fleshed out. Obviously, there's going to be refinement as more people play it, and then they kind of get some more ideas. But that's the thing. It's like you can't work around a broken mech or work around a mech that just gets boring after a while, whatever. And not talking about options from any mech in general. But if the code is fun. Yeah. Like that right there is everything. If the code's not fun, then it's like, what does it matter what the ball does if everything else around it is boring to the player? From a game theory standpoint, it doesn't matter. Now, from just a caveman, you know, used whatever side of your brain you need to do just to see the ball and zip around and do stuff, and that's it. Yeah, excellent. But after so long, if you don't have everything else integrated with it to make that whole package and that whole experience, then that's what gets boring after a while. I will say, well, I have a few things.
    17:20
    Broken mech, like turtles. Everybody knows I love turtles. examples I bought a pro because at the time I was like, okay, the premium has the glider mech. That looks pretty great. And it has crank that bops up and down and it has the balls feet out of the van and it has the spinning desk rotates two different ways. I will say now being a pro owner for multiple years, the amount of glider mechs that have failed, like I'm sitting here going, I'm so glad. I'm so glad I didn't go down that route because I would be fighting that mech. Another example would be, well, normally when I'm at that, is this a pro game or a premium game? If there's ever a secondary playfield, like I feel like that's a, like Jaws, I feel like you have to have the premium because that upper playfield adds so much to the game.
    18:06
    Godzilla, if somebody has a Godzilla Pro, like I could understand that. Like I could understand, sure, I like, what I like about the mech, the building moving is the diverter aspect. It actually changes how the game's playing. Same thing with the Mechagodzilla mech. But, like, I could understand why you go with a Godzilla Pro. I understand why people go with a King Kong Pro because, like, the game is there. And so that's why I feel like – John Wick, this is a question for you. Tom, you have a John Wick Pro, right? Right. I just dreamed that I got to the end of the game that's coded. Oh, sick, dude. Yeah. He's like good at the crate. The crate moving up and down. Like, would that, I feel like there's certain mechs that it's like once you've experienced that a handful of times, it actually is deterring you from getting further in the game. Yeah, it's not that bad of a mech, but it definitely makes the game harder, I guess. Yeah, it's not a... In my opinion. Yeah. I'm just trying to think. I'm trying to think of games that are like, I don't know, and I'm not saying don't buy all the premiums or pros, but I think sometimes the flashy things that really grab us early on, the more and more and more and more that you play the game, those are the things that could break or start to get, not like the moments where it could wear off a tiny bit.
    19:35
    What I will say about Optimus is if you look at the art, there are tire tracks on it. So I do think that he came down into a truck form. And if you look at the playfield, I'm pretty sure the way he came down, he actually blocked that vertical upkick. So in my opinion, I think it was some sort of, like, I think it blocked the vertical upkick. So I think it was probably a, you bash him, he stands up, he's now not blocking it, now you have to scoop, and then you come back down. So I think it was a mech that blocked your progress or blocked you from getting, and I just think back to, like, the crate on John Wick. There are times where you don't want that crate in the way. So I feel like, I don't know, I just think it's, one, if the mech wasn't reliable, that would suck, especially if you're like, I can't progress, why aren't you registering the hits, you know? Or if, I'm very curious if the way that that ball came off the mech, like, would it be very frustrating? There is a center post on this game. So there's a lot of that we won't ever know, we won't officially ever know, but I do think thematically having a mech in Transformers that was supposed to transform, not transform, that sucks. But gameplay-wise, we might have dodged a bullet here. We might have. And that probably sounds like very chilly. I'm just trying to find the silver lining here. But we might have. We might have dodged a bullet. But here's the reality, too, when it comes to mechs.
    20:51
    You know, I think a lot of us are going to take a step back and realize that pinball really originated as a location-based game, right? A lot of these, like it was just after COVID that really home use really exploded, surpassed locations, And now it's the majority of the industry now. However, what I find very unique about pinball is not much has changed in terms of adjusting to a home user, because obviously if mechs are in a play field, really in all reality, I don't know if people started building pinball, imagining somebody buying this game and playing it a thousand plus times on their own over a couple of months. You know, whereas it was just get it on location. And you know people are going to play it a handful of times and then go to the next thing and the next thing. I mean, the games are literally designed for you to lose your ball. That's the idea. So I think I kind of find that conceptually unique in the way that we view mechs. Because I don't want to sound like we're, like at least for me personally, I don't want to sound like I'm anti-mech. I think mechs and games are cool and they could be pretty much anything. They don't have to be something that captures the ball. It could be something as cool as just a drop target put and used in a creative manner on the play field or even a spinner or something like that. But I think really it's interesting that we look at these mechs and sometimes it's thinking, okay, would this mech be fun after 20 plays, 25 plays, 50 plays? And most of them are. Like most of the cool mechs are for sure. It's just after a while if you played a few hundred games on something and it's a central thing and you do it over and over again, And I think it's like anything else. Our brains tend to want to go see something new, do something a little bit special.
    22:33
    Right, exactly. Yeah. And I mean, a lot of it is, too, for us as pinball players, especially if we view it through the prism of, OK, I'm going to start this mode. I'm going to stack this multiball. You get almost robotic in that, you know, your roadmap over and over and over again. And you do that and you see the same thing over and over and over again. I mean, that's just a natural occurrence. So I think a lot of times, too, we've got to all take a step back and think of, okay, what is it like when we experience the pinball machine for the first time, fifth time, or even the tenth time? If the mech is still cool at that point, then I think it's a good mech. Like if you like it by your tenth play or tenth time, use it. It's still a good mech. But I think any mech, you're going to get tired of it after seeing it a hundred plus times in a row in the same month. Eventually somebody will. I mean, I understand there's probably some of you freaks out there listening to us on the podcast. They're like, I could play my game 5,000 times. Like Joel does that, and he survives time. Oh, yeah. The Medieval Madness Castle has never gotten old, which, I mean, it's an amazing mech. Don't get me wrong. The Medieval Madness Castle, it's an amazing mech. And I absolutely think there are mechs in pinball that don't get old. Like the shark fin popping up on Jaws, that doesn't get old. That's not going to get old. But it's not really this cosmetic thing that you're interacting with. It's now all of a sudden you have a shot that popped up that's moving and you got to hit the shot. So my question I was going to ask you is what are your thoughts on cosmetic mechs? And what I mean, an example of this would be Labyrinth. Labyrinth has two of the, I can't think of their names. It's the creatures, the little kind of fox looking creatures that their heads pop off. They like during that mode, they come out and they're just on servos and they just dance around. And every time you hit that right orbit, it pops up, you know, say something. And then it also has the little worm, the little worm, I forget his name too, that pops up. And it's just a cosmetic mech. So it's like from a reliability standpoint, you don't have a ball bashing it, those parts. And if those mechs don't work, the game still plays. So it's like, do you feel like don't, I'm not saying everything should go cosmetic because I do like diverters in games and like things that change on ramps and drop targets and all. I'm not saying that, but it's like, I don't know, cosmetic mechs in games, like what if the Transformer would have transformed, but it wasn't a mech that you're actually interacting, like hitting with a pinball? Would that have been fine? Would it have been totally fine if Optimus was just off to the side and moved and you didn't interact with him at all? Like should we, I don't know, what are your thoughts, is that a cop out? No, I want the ball, I want Shark Eat Ball, I don't want to just see Shark. I don't know. I can tell you straight up. There would be people that would still be upset, but there would be a lot of people that would be happy. I think Barrels of Fun and Spooky have proven that proof of concept that if you have something that is just simply moving, even if it's not interacting with the ball, people will notice it and people will think it's cool. I mean, look at Evil Dead, the tape player or the deck player. That's just moving back. You don't interact with it at all. I think the swinging chair on the cabin. Sure, that chair does technically hold a ball back, but it's not a mech that you're bashing or hitting or anything. But it's a cool. What about King Kong? King Kong, I think at one point King Kong was supposed to grab a ball and then they changed. That is essentially a cosmetic mech. So it's a cosmetic mech that I think is really cool, but at the same time that cosmetic mech wasn't enough to make Tom buy the premium LE. But yet he still has a fully fleshed out amazing pinball machine in the prep. Well, cheap.
    26:20
    Well, look at Pokemon. They had two cosmetic mechs. They got the Pokeball that wiggles, and then on the right side they got Pikachu. That just moves back and forth. So, I mean, this isn't like it's an unknown thing from Stern. They're capable of doing it. Any pinball manufacturer out there is capable of doing it. But I do think that's kind of what I like to refer to as window dressing. I mean, it looks good. Like if you're on the side watching it, even if you're playing just watching it while you may not notice. It's the same thing as the LCD screen or beautiful art that's on the game. But if you're off to the side, you're going to notice those things and it adds on to the game. And if it didn't add on to the game, these companies wouldn't be doing it. They wouldn't be advertising it in the Matrix. It wouldn't be an add-on for a limited edition. You know, I think there's just different levels of it, right? Obviously, at the highest level, I think it's something like Jersey Jack does at times to where they actually take what you could tell is part of the theme and they fully integrate it into the actual play field itself that interacts with the ball. Like take Guns N' Roses, for instance, right? A Habitrell that looks like drumsticks coming back. So something like that. I think that's taken it to the nth degree. And granted, there's probably another pinball manufacturer out there, a multiple, Well, I've probably done something similar to that. I just can't remember it. But to me, that's like the ultimate thing when you can figure out something like that, like they did in Harry Potter, too. Right. Because, I mean, you have like the cauldron accepting balls, I think, on the right hand side, if I'm remembering that right. And then you have the staircase that's moving back and forth. That's a pretty intricate mech, but it is. It's more. I'm saying that's not that's not like the window dressing ones. They're just sitting there not interacting with the ball at all. I'm saying that's something that's like literally fully in the theme and it's fully interacting with the ball and it's fully affecting gameplay. Yeah. Harry Potter has the three wands that are the ramp on the right or the habit trail on the right that goes into the cauldron. Those are those are just that's a visual thing. It's got the girl on the broom that's kind of on a spring, I think. That's a cosmetic like there's a lot. I was trying to think Elton John. Elton John. I was like, what? There's a lot of cosmetic mech in that game. I don't know anybody that thinks Elton John's a bad game. That's a great game. But the only thing, like the unique mech in the game is you got Elton John playing a piano, but like the ball doesn't physically interact with that mech. It's a locking mech. It has a way to lock balls up there, but like it's not like you're bashing Elton John. Like that mech can just be a mech and do its own thing. So it's, I just think it's, I'm not, I'm not a pinball designer. I'm not here to tell people how to do their job, but I just think it's really, I don't know. Tom, you said the Dune Worm was one of the greatest mechs recently, and it's partly cosmetic because of the shell of the worm, but that is a very interactive mech. Very interactive mech. Extremely. So it's like I applaud them for making that interactive mech. I'm glad the worm doesn't just pop up out of the corner and like, hello. But at the same time, if that mech fails, that game is, if that mech fails at all, that game is, you're stuck. You're sending me depression.
    29:42
    Yeah, yeah. So, yeah, I don't want to sit here and tell people don't, we don't need mechs that interact with the ball. But I do think.
    29:50
    I'll tell people, yes, we do. I don't think every mech has to interact with the ball. Joel, I'll say it. Yes, we do. Like, look at Godzilla. Prime example of it. When we talk about, if we're talking about this is the next level, it's not just a mech for the sake of being a mech. It's a mech that has purpose and is very thematic. Okay? Godzilla. The most obvious one is the building. Yep. That goes up and down. It changes the direction of where the ball is coming from, like after it comes out of the ramp, which flippers are going to. There's a ball lock involved. And then you can go down to the left habit trail. It's a bridge that actually will break apart. That's very thematic, you know, with Godzilla rampaging through the city. On the right hand side, you have that rotating shield that has a jump ramp. Once again, very thematic that they even use it for the code where you're knocking down the shield or you're advancing things toward Mechagodzilla. Right, exactly. So that's really what we mean by having multiple things come together at once. To where you have to think so far ahead to integrate things into the theme. Then, of course, naturally, you've got to make it fit into the bomb. You've got to make sure it doesn't get stripped from your game. And then you've got to figure out the right rules to go with it and the right vibe to go with it, right? The right mode, the right LCD thing. There's just so much that goes into it, but there's proof in these games across all manufacturers what happens when you bring all those variables together. So to me, that's the North Star right there for anybody to try to achieve. Now naturally you through North Stars to make sure the games are designed in such a way they can actually be manufactured at scale Yes of course Yeah At the very basis But just from a design standpoint I would think that would be the North Star Otherwise we going totally retro and just trying to do something from the 70s like a single level EM game or something like that So using Godzilla, you are arguing that we do need mechs that interact with the ball. He is arguing that, yes. Yeah. Just because of where the industry is at, Joel, like the vast majority are home users. And if we're declaring that we're going to have 750 or 1,000 LEs, if we're saying we're going to have unlimited $15,000 CEs now for Harry Potter from JJP, we're saying Spooky and Barrels are focusing mostly on just one singular build. That's the top tier build possible that has all the mechs that it needs there. And they're trying to interact with the ball as much as possible or have the window dressing mechs that move around. It's obvious that that's where a lot of pinballs head it. So it's like everybody has to make a choice. Do they keep heading that direction in light of rising costs, rising labor costs, rising prices everywhere? Do you keep pushing that envelope or do you find a stopping point where you're like, OK, this is enough. We need to focus this way. Right. So that's what I find unique. That's obvious that Stern has kind of like as much as everybody talks about mechs. I think it's fair to say most people think that Stern's LEs lack in that department compared to other other manufacturers, other games. I think we see that across the board. But but Stern relies on Internet capability. Right. They're doing that, that whole thing. There's not anybody else that I can think of that's making sure that achievements are in the game as much as possible. It's making sure you can have a profile. You can have all these statistics, all these stats, all this data. And plus, too, they're not necessarily trying to make games to go on location all the time. Like every single release from Stern has to go on location all the time. So to me, that not just affects design, that affects what themes you're choosing. Because some themes you're better off choosing because you know you need to get coin drop. You know you need to move 5,000, 10,000 units compared to somebody else that knows that they just need to move 1,000 or 1,500. $100 to a home. Like that's a much different discussion to have in that. But I don't know. I think games need mextral. If they're going to go to houses. Yeah. Oh, I don't want to miss out on that. And I think there's a way to do it that has been proven like multiple, multiple designers have proven they can do it. I think it's just a matter of can they are they allowed to keep doing it consistently? Because I don't think that there's designers out there that actively just have no idea how to do it. I think they all do. It's just a matter. Are they allowed? How do you do it within the constraints that's put on them by the manufacturers themselves to make sure that the product stays under or the project stays under bomb and they can get it out and meet the deadlines? I think that's the real thing that's going on here. Yeah, I'm going to have to go back and re-listen to this because I just I don't maybe I don't know what I'm arguing, but I don't get me wrong. I love I love mechs that interact with the ball. I really do. Now, a mech and I also like mechs that create a moment. But if that moment is easily achieved, like whatever, Medieval Madness, we talk about it so many times, like most novice could step up to Medieval Madness for the first time and they could stumble into a way of blowing up that castle. And there's a reason that game is beloved is because almost everybody gets to experience that and it's like, holy crap, that castle just blew up. That's what we love, right? But then for the people that have this at home, it's like, okay, that's a mech that's too easy for me to enjoy. So then you have other mechs on the other side of that. So not Star Wars Fall of the Empire, but Star Wars, Steve Ritchie's Star Wars. The Death Star blowing up, you really have to work to get that to blow up. But when it does blow up, so cool. So cool. Like such a cool moment. But that's why I feel it's too far because so many people don't get to experience that. So now we have the John Borg Death Star. And now with the fix, a lot of people can actually see that thing blow up. And so it's like maybe there's your balance of that. That's where you don't want to have a really cool mech that's trapped under super deep code. So I want to have I want to have those things. I do want to have those things. Yeah, you're just talking. You're basically talking game theory and something every single manufacturer should be doing, which is don't put all your cool shit like locked behind something or deep in the game. Like, obviously, I think everybody understands that you want cool stuff to happen early on in the game. Like this close to the start button as possible within 15, 30 seconds. But you don't want to blow your load immediately to everything and make it all like everybody saw everything the first time they played it. And now what's going to grow them back in? Well, that's the tough part, right? That's the location argument against home use. If somebody's on location, they're going to keep pumping quarters because they want to keep playing. Like it's OK to play 20, 30 games before you decide if you want to move on. Whereas you're, you know, you pay seven to fifteen thousand dollars to get a game into your house. I would like to think you're going to play it a little bit more than just 20 times. So naturally, you're going to end up getting a much different experience. So I think really that's that's the argument I was making earlier, that things have changed. It's interesting how we do the mechs, but the way that people experience these games are under much different conditions compared to what they were a decade or 20 years ago. I think that's another example I've just thought of. And then, Tom, I have a question for you. Tom, I was going to say, you know, pin side and pinball in general was really hurt by by Jaws, right? Didn't eat the ball. Yeah, no eat ball. It's number three on pin side. People got past that. It's crazy. Yeah, I thought you were going to give up on your LE once you realized it was an eat ball. But good for you for powering through.
    37:27
    I did it. And I don't doubt. I honestly, I'm really excited about Transformers. And I know this will be something that people get past. John Wick is another example. We had a, I streamed on Flip N Out, we did a chatting stream, and Mike with the Pinballers, he honestly thinks John Wick now is a top 10 game. He loves that game now. Tom, what are your thoughts? I know I streamed it the last couple days and I just had so much fun just like cranking through it. It's a fast game. The shots are brutal, but like I got to the duel, which is you have to complete two of the three things. Well, you don't have to complete it, but you have to play through either all the modes, do all the adversaries, or do six of the multiballs. So basically do all the multiballs. There's four car multiballs. There's the Excommunicado and whatever the other one is. I can't think of right now, but you have to do all six of those and then it'll basically like the wizard mode. So, yeah, he was raving about it. The next game, there's no guns in the game, Tom. How can you play the game when there's no guns on the artwork? It's hard to stop, Tom. How do you do it? Yeah, I got over it.
    39:00
    I mean, at some point we're just playing pinball, right? You would think. I think every release is under a microscope, right? But every time a new game comes out, somebody just wants to find some fault in the game. Tom, you're Harry Potter. Does it have the derpy three-eyed dragon? Yes. How can you play the game, Tom? How can you do it, Tom? I don't even notice it's there. Actually, occasionally I'll look at it and I'll be like, oh yeah. Derp. I'm sure it bothers some people. I have some games with some scratches on them and they don't bother me.
    39:46
    There's some older games. I have a Paragon. There's a little bit of wear on the play field. I'm okay with that. Man, you're good on you. You're staying for looking past flaws and just enjoying people for who they are. I know you do that. It carries into your heart. I know. It's a crazy life, you know. One thing that popped in my head, which was when we were talking about mechs that interact with balls. So it's like, how do you have a mech that can be very funny? You're saying don't trap a behind code. Don't trap a behind code. So it's like, OK, you want a mech that most people can interact with, but also you don't want the mech to get old. So my thought was like, what is a mech that you can experience, but then you can experience that mech later in a different way that gets us excited to go deeper? And the thought I had, and please let me know if you think of another one, the thought I had was Cactus Canyon. Cactus Canyon, the drop targets, those quick shots, most every player, at some point in time you're going to go down an end lane and one of them is going to pop up and you go, oh, I can shoot that. So most novice players can experience those quick shots. They can experience that. But if you get deeper into the game, there are modes that use those drops in a completely different manner. So one is the outlane ball save. All of a sudden, all four drops will pop up and one of them will be green. You have to hit the green one. Then there's another mode, the martial multiball, where the two drops pop up, kind of blocking a shot. You have to hit between them. But if you hit them, it's like now all of a sudden this mech that everybody gets to experience is being used in a completely different manner, deeper in the game that creates a different moment and a unique feeling with the same mech. That's pretty cool. That's pretty cool to me. So do you have another example of a mech that does something like that? Like it's obvious to a novice player right out the get-go, but then creates something different. I know Dune, the worm, the worm, it does a whole bunch of stuff, but there's one mode that all of a sudden it's a bash toy. It wasn't a bash toy when, you know, most people are going to see what it does with grabbing the ball with a magnet. They're going to experience that, but it being a bash toy, nope, only one mode that has that, and you got it bashed away.
    41:59
    Let's think. Write into TripleDrainGmo.com and let us know what we're thinking about. Unless you've already, you know. I got nothing.
    42:08
    I'm trying to think, but that's a, I think it's a good, I was also trying to think of mechs like Carl D'Angelo You know, with Winchester, like, good on you. That carousel mech is insane. It's insane because obviously that carousel mech is absolutely insane. But, like, the reliability side of that, that's terrifying, right? Like, that thing has to work for that game to work. Yeah, most mechs have to work. Yeah, but, like, that's such a big mech. And I'm experiencing that with Batman 66, which we'll talk more about later. You know what's amazing? Like when one of your flippers goes out, the game really sucks. Oh, yeah, you're right. You're right. But when you have an entire huge section of the play field that is changing dynamically, that's got to work. But, man, it works. Novice can experience part of that, and then all of a sudden the deeper you get into code, it's like, holy cow, it's doing – it's in a configuration that's totally different than – What I'm saying is it can be a simple mech that you don't even think of like a flipper. And if the flipper is dead on the game, you can't play the game.
    43:16
    True. Yeah. That's why people prefer turns with the snappy flippers. That's so damn important as well. True. But you can't just isolate like, okay, there's this special mech in this game, and if it fails, you know, the world's going to end. True. There's a lot of mechs. What I'm saying is like, how do you find that balance? You want a mech that is not trapped behind code, but also doesn't get old. And I'm trying to think of mechs that can be used. I can't think of a game. I know there's a game that has a diverter on a shot where there's a certain mode where it'll keep diverting down to your flipper so you can loop. You can loop shots and normally you can't. Normally that diverter isn't always diverting it down. And it's only for one particular thing. So now all of a sudden you're looping a shot over and over again that you typically don't get a loop over and over again. So it creates a unique moment with a simple diverter. And I can't, what game is that? It's something I've played in the long, it might be Harry Potter. No, I'm just saying like Harry Potter has a whole staircase thing with the, you know, changes paths like crazy.
    44:29
    Write into Triple Trainer, leave a comment on YouTube. There's a game. I'm telling you, there's a game. I know, doesn't Dune have a... Trying to throw softballs here. Dune has, I think, something where it keeps, so you can loop an upper shot. I don't know. But that's what I... Give me more of that. Okay, so we've gone into game theory, we've gone into game design, because clearly, we know so much, right? We're so smart. We don't know what we're talking about. We're just... Travis, do you have any examples? We're a pinball expert, Sam. Examples of what? What do you want to example on, Joel? You said if Godzilla is the North Star, well, I mean, like freaking King Kong with the bridge mech, the fact that there are modes where the log diverter is always up so you can just do crazy stuff on the upper playfield and then other times where it's down. And guess what? That's thematically, it makes complete sense. Yeah, that's pretty awesome. With the playfield, with the modes, with the artwork, and that's what we talk about when bringing the whole package together. I think it's more or less you just have to unlock that part of your brain that you start seeing it because once you see it in one thing, you start seeing it in other things. I think it creates that nuanced appreciation to have for these designers and the people that make the decisions for what they're doing in these games. These are like little things unsaid, kind of like we can go back to Jaws. We were talking about that a second ago, right? One of the cool things that makes that target really pop is the decision making for how the playfield art is with the water all around. And then the decision for how the GI is underneath it or the LEDs like going red because you're chumming the water. So you start seeing red building up. And then on top of that, you realize that that's your progression for getting to multivall because you have to keep chumming until it's fully chummed. So something like that. That's a great example of it right there. And I think we can go up and down. I'm sure there's modes that are built into Dune, for instance. I don't have a ton of time on it, but with the, what is it, the day and night? Sort of like when it switches over. I'm sure there's plenty in there like that. I mean, obviously there were certain things put into GNR with the light show where you have to keep going forward. You're blinded, but that right there, you feel like you're in a concert and you feel the music going. To me, something like that, that works as well. And I don't know if you want to consider lights a mech, but I mean. Speaking of light show, didn't the team do some really cool stuff with the expression lights? Yeah. Oh, yeah. I think people don't. I'm telling you, people. I will say this. I said this on the YouTube channel as a pinball player. I told you guys this. I told you guys like off podcast, off stream, like my true thoughts. And I'm like, this pin right here, once people play it and they see how things are integrated together and they actually, you could play this as a white wood and it would be fun. Like, let's just, we've been glazing the code. I'm telling you, the layout itself is fun to play. It's got the perfect mix. It feels like, it feels like Elliot took Bally Williams and just pulled it into modern days and added the modern twist to it. That's what it feels like to me because there's certain elements there that just feel good. Like hitting a – I usually don't like a Vuck, but hitting a Vuck across the playfield feels good. That kind of reminds me of like a Judge Dredd type thing where you're hitting that sniper way up the playfield. You're talking about the Vuck next to Optimus way back in the left. Oh, yeah. Yeah, yeah. On Transformers, yeah. I mean something like that. Reminds me of like World Cup soccer.
    48:09
    Yeah. The one by the goal. Mm-hmm. Oh, yeah, yeah. Okay. Something like that as well. Exactly, 100%. I mean, even though it's not the same thing. No, it's just like a reminder of it because that's when it was really popular back then. And it can still be done today. I mean, you can still pull design theories today. But even the, like, for instance, oh, gosh, the horizontal shot from the upper flipper, right? That kind of feels like Indy 500-like or Shadow-like with that shot that's just laid on the flipper. You hit it, and you get a jackpot, you get a combo, a combatron start. So that's not an upper – it's actually a ramp shot. That's a ramp shot, not a loop. You think it's an upper loop, but it actually – what I've heard is it feels like the left ramp on Godzilla because you've got to hit it clean, and then it's like the wave ramp on Jaws. It's a 180 ramp. So you've got to hit it clean and then it will whip around and come back down to your left flipper. Right. Exactly. So I what I OK. So let's talk about an upper flipper to me now because I'm so smart and I'm so experienced, you know, in this in this. You're past your five years, Joel. I just learned so much. But I actually don't know. I got to look at my I know I'm past five years, but an upper flipper, if you put an upper flipper in the game, The very first thing that I'm looking at is what feeds the upper flipper because, great, that upper flipper just gave me three new shots or four new shots. But if feeding that upper flipper is a pain in the butt, then that is not fun. Prime example, Alien. Alien has an upper flipper to hit that freaking comatose shot, whatever it is, the one that goes up to, I don't know what it's called. But, like, the shot to feed the upper flipper is a hard shot. So it's a hard shot to feed it, and now you have to make another shot that's hard. So to Transformers, what feeds the upper flipper? The center spinner right up the middle. That feeds the upper flipper, and it feeds it fast. And then your other option is the far left shot, which goes across a ball path, kind of like King Kong, and just very easily feeds that upper flipper in a nice consistent manner. So you have two ways to feed an upper flipper, and both of them are different and seem fun. There's actually a third, I think. And you can short plunge. You can short plunge. No, there's another one. What is it?
    50:44
    Doesn't Megatron shoot the ball to the upper flipper? It does shoot at it. Okay. Big brain Tom. Big brain. He's paying attention. God, this is why we have you. This is why we have you here. I think that's all, like, upper flipper. You put an upper flipper in a game, you put a third flipper. That's my first thing. What feeds it? Otherwise, it could be terrible. So to see that, that ball goes like, that's cool. I originally thought Megatron just shot it, like, across that ramp, onto that ramp, water farm, whatever it is, but the video shows it actually shooting it to the upper flipper as well. So it's two points. You've seen it. You've seen it. You've seen it shoot in person. What are the how to feel? How to feel that ball shoot out of that cannon? Oh, great. I mean, it was fun. It was fun hitting. So the right ramp is fun to hit because it's tough to hit. It's not a gimme. Right. That does look tight. It looks deep. Yes, it is both. And you feel it. If you miss it, you know, you better be on your on your defense to get it back. But no, I mean, that ramp is great. And seeing the cannon shot to me was cool. The first time we just laughed our asses off saying how awesome was that? Like there's sometimes you see something happen in a game and seeing that combined with the sound and the light show, like it brought it all together. That when we talk about a moment, as cliche as it is, that felt like that. Now, could that moment get old after 20 times in a row? Just like we're talking about? Yeah, of course. But to me, that right there sold it that if you're going to play this, you almost have to have a premium at that point because he doesn't do that on the pro. That's the thing. But no, it's to me, it's really cool. And it kind of shows that Megatron is kind of like the low key star of the show, being able to do as much as he does in there. The right ramp, would you say it's well, two parts. One, do you think it's easier or harder than the right ramp on Foo Fighters?
    52:49
    It's harder to me at first just because I haven't played it. I played it a handful of times. I played Foo Fighters a bunch. Okay, because I remember, yeah, Foo Fighters. I found the Foo Fighters right ramp faster than I did the Transformers right ramp. That's what you're asking. But this right ramp is easier than the Shadow right ramp. I can't hit that for shit.
    53:11
    That's like my worst right ramp ever, Joel. What about the right ramp in Avatar? Which one? The ramp? The newest one? Yes. The newest Avatar. There's a right ramp that feeds the spinner. Oh, yeah. I don't hit that either. No, I don't hit that either. That is a hard shot. Like, Jared pointed that out. I can't hit a lot of shots in Avatar, Joel. I'm atrocious at it. Okay. I'm curious. Obviously, I don't want that to be a – okay. Do you think the right ramp, if that was the spelling name – No, this is fine. What other game can we shit on? The right ramp. Here. Let's name off another one. I'm ready. What else? Okay, the Jurassic Park right ramp, that's fun to hit, but that's hard. The Stern one. Yeah. Even the best one. Okay, it was the second game. He needed to figure out how to design Pinball. All right, so you got to give him some grace.
    54:03
    What I'm saying, the right ramp, though, if that is the coolest mech, right, if that's the cool thing, so if my son comes down and I say, hey, dude, you got to see him shoot this cannon. Do you think my son will ever see Megatron shoot his cannon? Will he be able to hit that right ramp? Yeah. Hopefully. Yeah. OK, I hope. I'm here to blind. A blind squirrel finds a nut, Joel. Your son's going to find the right ramp. What I will say, this is just a side tangent, Pokemon. Pokemon has been in my house now like a month. I thought I thought that my my kids would just fawn over this game. They they they don't. They play it every once in a while, but it's not they just don't. It's not like they're craving it. And part of it is because for whatever reason, and I get it, Meowth, that shot's right up the middle. But for whatever reason, like, my son struggles to get to Meowth multiball in this game, that Team Rocket multiball, the Pikachu multiball. I mean, that's just three shots to the right ramp. But that fan layout is fast and can be brutal. So for my son, who's like, this is his, he should be loving it. I'll tell you right now, of this lineup, what games get played the most? Batman, he plays Batman a lot because once he gets that crane coming out is like the coolest thing. Like he thinks that's so cool. And he just keeps coming back to Texas Canyon. I mean, that's like, that's what he plays. Anyways, right ramp. Are we crapping on any of the right ramps? What other right ramps? I don't like the Red Zeppelin right ramp. I don't like that one. The Kiss right ramp was pretty rough.
    55:32
    That's a challenge one. The Flash Gordon right ramp. Except that ramp. I always hit a post and drain right down the middle. TNA's right ramp is real hard. I still haven't hit it.
    55:43
    All right ramps suck. All right. All right ramps suck. Why are left ramps easier to hit than right ramps? Because we're right handed.
    55:53
    But I'm not. I don't understand that. You're left handed? I'm both. I use both hands. Speaking of hands. Here's another slide. I'm mostly with my left hand. I drink with my left hand. I drive with my left hand. I throw with my right hand. I pee with my left hand. So yeah, there you go. Or is it no hands? I don't know.
    56:15
    I pee definitely no hands. Joel, can you imagine pissing with no hands? What would happen then? That's like mass payoff. That's a little messy. You just pee and sit down, bro.
    56:26
    Just no hands, yeah. Yeah. Jack hands, I figured it out. You're good to go. All right. Good thing they made urinals. Yeah, good doing. I apologize to our female audience. My God. He just puts both hands on the wall. Just boom. Just right there on the wall and just leans. I read all the messages on the wall. Me, me, me, and me. God.
    56:47
    What was, oh, speaking of hands, I am trying to change. Oh, the right ramp on Led Zeppelin. Yeah. Okay. Right, yes. Yeah. It's like 180. No, you're right. Fix that, Ray. Fix it. I'm trying to change my grip, my pinball grip. And the reason why is because as a taller individual, you and I have been talking about this, haven't you? I have not. I have not. Okay. But as a taller individual, individual, individual, I used to always have my middle finger, my middle finger on the button. And I would, I would put my hands in more so that my fingertip was hitting the button. And I was basically resting my body on the game. Like I was leaning on the game. But when my hands, if you can see, my hands were bent back more like a 90 degree angle. And what I've realized, injuries, right? But like if I play for two hours and I'm leaning like that, I was legit having soreness and like tingling in my hands. Were you guys going to move your hands?
    58:00
    I hear you, Joel. Yeah, this is for you, Tom, not for you. You were putting your – It was a pin injury. It was a problem. There's another one for you. Did you feel it in your – not just your wrist, but in your elbows too? Yeah, it was like – this is – and what's funny is the next day at work, you know, or like I'm sitting at my desk and I was like, why am I – like, why do I feel this? And then I'm like, I'm hurting myself playing pinball. And I realize that don't lean on the game. So I'm like trying to completely change. So I, I, I'm Tim Sexton actually did a video and it's like, you're supposed to, you're supposed to do two fingers.
    58:38
    Do you guys, do you guys hit the button with one finger or two fingers? It depends. Well, obviously, yeah, per side. Yeah, it depends what you're doing in the game.
    58:50
    Yeah. Go ahead, Tom. I usually do two, I think now, but I've caught myself doing like index and metal, so I don't know. I'm old.
    59:02
    I don't know what I'm doing. Flat hands. Yeah. I just think about the flipper moving and it moves. I don't think about it unless somebody brings it up.
    59:11
    I'm just right in Triple Dream. I'm like, I don't know. Let's know. So what I tried to do is I tried to shift my fingers down more. Instead of my wrist like this, I'm trying to keep it more straight and I'm trying not to lean on the game. So I'm trying to have the button be, I don't know, not on the fleshy part of the tip of my finger, but more in the middle. What do you think Abe would tell you to do? That's the question. What would Abe tell you to do? Is it in the video? Tom?
    59:43
    You've seen it? I think it is. I don't know, I need to watch this. I would think it would be, yeah. There you go. There's a plug. I need to watch, yeah. I need to watch the video. Sorry, I haven't seen it yet. But I need to see. I don't know. I'm curious. But it is funny to me, changing my stance, like, affects my ability. I felt like I could nudge more because I was already leaning on the game, but now it's like it's better. It's better. I feel a little more controlled. I watched Elwin play Winchester when we were at Pinball. Like, he doesn't lean on the game at all. Like it's this like finesse that he has. Yeah, he's very relaxed. Yeah, very, yeah. But I don't know, I need to watch, I'm just messing around trying to find the right thing. Don't hurt yourself. Don't hurt yourself playing Pinball.
    60:30
    That's a good idea, Joel. Okay, so we were talking about Transformers. We were talking about the shots. We like the shots. We did talk about the code a little bit. What I can say about the code, what I do like that Gieske put in the game, I mean, there are five main modes, but she has levels to the modes. There are three levels to the modes, and it's based on whether or not you've energized the Energon Cube beforehand. So you can select what level you want to play the mode. And she said the modes, they're very different experiences based on the way you play the modes. Then, if you beat two modes, I think it's beat, it lights a mini wizard mode, And the mini wizard mode is based on the two modes that you played. So there's perks that you get. So the mini wizard mode, it just keeps spitting balls out. It's like you're battling Megatron and certain shots damage him and certain shots damage you. But like one of the modes, if you play this mode, that means every time you drain, that doesn't hurt your health. But there's other. So it's like every mode has a perk. So it's like I hear that. I'm like, that's awesome. I only have five modes, but the modes change based on the difficulty I select, so risk-reward. I got variety in the game. I don't have 35 modes like a JJP game. I have five modes, but they're varied. And then the combination of modes that I pick affects the reward I get for beating two modes. Like, that sounds really cool. Travis, you've played it. Have you experienced that? Yep. It was all good. It was fun. I think that that part's cool. I think the fact that you alluded to making the modes, there's different ways to play it. So, on top of that, you have to earn that, right? You don't just go directly into a mode or a mission or whatever they were calling it and just automatically get to choose to play the hardest version of it. You have to do stuff on the play field in order to even qualify that option. So that's what's cool. You're already doing stuff. So that's great because if you're a novice, you don't care. If you're an advanced player, that's cool because it makes you do advanced player things and you have to start thinking ahead of time. And then on top of that there another added layer to this that if you choose to not do the hard thing then you get what if you beat that mission you get what called cosmic rust I pretty sure this is how it works And that Cosmic Rust basically buffs the scoring to your next mode Like it make it worth more So you could choose not to energize and just hold it back and then just keep building, building, building. But I don't know exactly how that works in terms of points. So play it easier now to boost the harder mode later? Right. Yeah. Oh, wow. I'm pretty sure it's something to that extent. Let me look. I got a picture up. Let me look. Let me look. Oh, it's on the rule card. It literally says on the very bottom cosmic rust beating a non-energized mission will infect the next mission with cosmic rust. Rust emissions are harder, but more valuable. That's pretty cool. Like that's that's the variety. Now, I will say that sometimes when you add variety into a pinball game that gives you perks. So X-Men would be an example. You beat certain modes in X-Men, you get a perk. That it's like, if the perks aren't balanced, then there usually ends up being one path that you always take. And that's, so it's a challenge. It's a challenge as a designer to find the balance because you want, like, obviously I assume Geeski wants to see Tom's treatment tournament a year from now, and she wants to see all four players play Transformers differently. Because then it shows that we have a balanced game. And it's not like, oh, no, everybody does whatever. I don't know the names and the modes. But it's like everybody's going to pick Solar Needle Rusted. And that's the only way to play. We'll see what happens at the Expo tournament.
    64:42
    Yeah, I think it's – I'm excited. I'm excited for that. A game – so I've been streaming. I streamed Batman 66, and I've really had a lot of fun with that game. And that game has four very easy modes to get into, the four villains, right? But what I do like about that is you can keep playing or you cash out. You cash out and you move on or you keep playing. And on top of that, when you play them again, it's a totally different version of the modes are easy to get into. There's only four of them, but they feel varied based on how you want to play it. I know Dune is another game that does that. You hit your shots, you want to cash out? No, you want to go deeper? Let's go. Like, I, Travis I know preaches staged modes. He's a big fan of that. You know, let the novice or let the people that just want to go progression, let them dip out of the mode. But give me more. Give me a challenge. Give me variety in that.
    65:36
    I'm coming around, man. I'm coming around to that really being standing out on what makes, gives a game replayability. Now there's a balance there because one of the challenges I'm having now that I was gushing over Batman 66 the first week I had it, but the more I play it now, now I realize with the TV modes, some of them are far superior than other TV modes. Do you know about the, if you complete one of each of the seasons, do you get a special? Yeah, that's my go-to. So what he's saying, there's three seasons. If you beat three different seasons, many minor villains, you get to a multiball and you get to pick which one you play. There's a holy, it's like holy mackerel molly ball or something where every shot it's Robin saying a different like whatever. Holy garbanzo bean batman. Like it's just, it's odd. Like that's so great. I love humor. But anyways, what I've realized though with the minor villains is sure, Lyman put, there's like 10 in the game, but I find myself playing the same three. Like I'm always playing Mr. Freeze, pause those timers, and then I play Bookworm to make sure that it's still there if I drain. And then I just need one for season three and I usually go Eggman or Tut. So it's like, okay, that's not, it's not as balanced to cause me to want to play other ones. And now I'm finding like I don't even want to play a villain until I've gotten the minor villains started because it'll help me with other things. So it's like but I don't want to fall into only playing the game one way. So I'm like challenging myself to like if TV's modes lit, go for it. But don't purposely try to light it, like just try to play the game. So you got to have fun. You got to have fun. But I love that. I love the variety there. And that's I'm not trying to crap on like I love that. But like Pokemon, I really I haven't really touched it because right now there is no variety in the game. I know it's very early on in the code, but it's just, you know, you got four modes to play and then you play Charizard. Like, that's all there is. That's all there is and there's no advantages to playing them in different orders. It's just four modes to play Charizard. So I would love to, a year from now, be raving about how awesome Pokemon is. It's just right now we're kind of holding out. Did you miss it, Tom? You sold it.
    67:56
    No. Yeah. Hold out hope. I'm holding strong with X-Men. I'm holding strong. I'm holding strong that it's going to finish strong. But I'm holding. I feel like I've been holding a while. Well, you got to be careful because once you start playing lineman games and you add that into the rotation, you're going to judge everything off of that. I think you start experiencing that. And so that's like that's the most superior form of rules and code so far. What Lyman's done now, there's people that are catching up. Right. I think obviously the next in line, Elwin and the way that, you know, Rick does things with a nagel. It's just it's amazing what they can do, too. So you have so many people that raise the bar, but then you see the influence that's out there. Like I got to give credit where credit's due to our IFA overlord. He took stuff, Josh Sharp, from what he learned with Lyman and he made Pulp Fiction really stand out from a rules perspective. So it's stuff like that that kind of you try to create as much nuance as you possibly can with what you're given because obviously certain playfields will allow you to do a little bit extra. Certain themes will allow you to do a little bit extra. And, you know, I don't know if they could do that with Pokemon. I have no idea how the license works or if they have a stay over much with the code or whatever. I have no idea. But I think it's so unique, though, if you do have a dream theme and you happen to get a rule set that is so fleshed out that it just makes it insanely fun to keep coming back to. So people that are into Batman 66 got that. People that are into Godzilla got that. If you're into Jurassic Park, you definitely got that. If you're into Star Wars, you got that with the newest game with Raymond on it. You know, people start raving about that code. So there's just there's a lot of unique things that can be done. But I do think, Joel, that one of the best things about rules in general is just if you can choose to make it a little bit more difficult. And if you could choose to have a level two to it or if you could play through something skillfully and keep the risk reward up. Like I love that nuance that I love thinking I could piece together a game that doesn't have to look the same every single time. It's where I could choose different options. Choose your own adventure. Yeah. And I, yeah, I mean, that's been fun.
    70:26
    Well, it's fun. It's fun. I know you guys give me a hard time with my level of play and I get it compared to you guys. It's a lot lower. But when I stream with my brother, like his level of play is totally different than mine. And it's fun to stream a game and see games that I can take it one direction and he can take it in a total different direction and we can both have a great time. Like, I love that. I love that variety. And then there's other games. Iron Man was another game that I streamed since the last time we recorded where that game really doesn't have many directions to go. So, but yet, and it's brutal, and it's simple to know what, like, okay, just do it. Just do the thing. And Jared was right there with me. He was having a blast. We're getting our butt kicked, but yet, all of a sudden, it's like, holy cow, I've done three of the five things. Like, I just focus, just be smart. I can get, oh, I got to four of the five. Like, I'm one away, and then this is lit. Or, okay, I failed. So Iron Man, you have to do five main tasks within one ball. And if you don't do it, then you lose them. But there's the Jericho, which is the mark, mark one, mark two, the mark. Those stay lit throughout the game. And so I think if you get all the way to mark six, then you light Jericho. So it's like, okay, you got the single ball thing you're focusing on. Oh, I failed. Well, I still have the long-term goal. So let's pivot, focus on that. Boom. And it's just, I really like that, the simplicity of it, but also that was a fun, balanced game, even though it's brutal. Like, and that's another lineman game, right? I mean, he made something special there. And I now understand why so many people love Iron Man. Do you still have Iron Man, Tom? I don't, but I still enjoy the game.
    72:17
    Is it a good tournament game? Oh, it's a phenomenal tournament game. What's the, you step up on Iron Man. Like what's your what are you trying to do? What's your goal? Depends on how the game's set up. OK. So if it's completely brutal and I can hit the ramps, this is what I did at Yegpin. I just I just hit the ramps all day and kept playing bogey. So bogey's alternating ramps. And then once you get far enough, then it starts the bogey mode and you just alternate ramps. That game, yeah, it had lightning flippers and yellow rubbers, but man, those flippers, they just felt great. I was just like, I could hit these ramps. It was like butter. Like butter. That's awesome. That's awesome.
    73:05
    But that's, I mean, but okay, that's if it's brutal. If it's set up in a reasonable manner. Then I'm still going to play Bogey, but I'll probably play Monger and try to at least get to Jericho. If not, try to get all five things like you were talking about in one ball.
    73:29
    But there's a lot of risk in some of those things. Well, the magnets, the targets to start your war machine, that can be brutal too. And yeah, Whiplash. Whiplash is like, oh, I just got to hit these two targets with a big ass magnet in front of it that throws the ball down the outlet, you know? Yeah. So but that's just that's kind of the fun of it, you know, like. Yeah. And Mongo seems easy as long as you can avoid the magnet, you know? I honestly would love to see somebody bring that rule back to modern pinball to where it's essentially do like five things, right? But in order to get to a wizard mode, but you got to do all five things in the same ball. So you have to really think it through your strategy to set it up and what to do. I'd be curious to see that brought back and then still have modes on top of it, still have other things, not just like a ramp mode. So you've got to have a long term. Right, right. It has to be the right game, right? The right game, right layout. That's the game. Yeah, I mean, I would, yeah, I think it could be used with any theme pretty much. I think that's part of the fun, right? It's pulling a rule that's been proven to be fun in pinball, and then you take the theme and you pull that into the pinball. I think it could be done. I think the three of us could figure it out. I think anybody can figure it out because it's just fun thinking of CoolShare like that. What about, well, two parts. One would be what if Godzilla was when you drain, you have to go to a new city. Like you have to. So that would make you do all the city things in one ball. Do you think that would be an improvement possibly?
    75:21
    Not necessarily because the layout is already a longer player, Whereas something like Iron Man's not. So that's probably what Tom was kind of referring to as well. I mean, it depends. A lot of the things that you do with rules depends on the layout itself. I think it would be cool. It'd be interesting. I mean, if you could set the game to hard just to try it out yourself, that would be fun. It's like the game stars, you know, like you can rip the spinner all day, but if you get the five stars, then it's set to 100K for the special. Well, it's fun trying to go for that, you know.
    76:00
    Joel, you don't know what I'm talking about. I don't. I don't know Stars. It doesn't have a screen. Oh, no. Zach, get on the screen. Stars. I mean, I've played it. I've never streamed it.
    76:12
    I had something. It was gone. You said Stars, and that was – oh, one ball. The very first pinball machine I had, technically the first working one, The first pinball machine I ever had was a Data E secret service, and it was completely dead. It was like it looked like it fell off the back of a truck. So I was doing all this hardware repair, trying to fix it, and I finally was like, man, this is a lot of work to not be able to play a game. So I ended up selling it as a project, and shortly thereafter I bought Avatar, Stern's Avatar, the original one, and I had that for a while. But what I did not like about Avatar was to get to the wizard mode, you had to do everything within one ball. And that was, now correct me if I'm wrong, maybe I'm just, I was super new.
    77:00
    Do you have to do everything within one ball? It turns off. You had to do it all within one ball. And I didn't think there was any objective that you would work towards outside of that. So what pissed me off was like, I have a three ball game, but it really feels like a one ball game. And, I mean, please, I was hoping you guys with your endless expertise, was I just playing it wrong? Or is there, or did Lyman, because Lyman was Avatar, wasn't he? I think it was a combo with like him and Lonnie. We need like Ron Halleck here, or Dennis Creasel, they would know. They would know right off the, they just, that encyclopedic, I don't know, I don't know if Travis is looking that up to correct me. In the tournament world, I called that game Link Multiple.
    77:49
    So you just do one thing the whole time. Link and then get your Playfield Multiplier. Just start ripping supers.
    77:56
    Super. Okay. And then do it again and again. I mean, we've gone 18 directions here. Transformers, we like the layout. We're excited about the layout. We like the code. We like what we're seeing with the code. One thing that's very clear about this game is this code is way more fleshed out than the last handful of games that Stern's made. So we would love for that to be the norm. Unfortunately, it's not. Yeah, I wish this game would have came out. I know it's going to be at a show, you know, over in Washington, I think, the beginning of June or somewhere over there. I just wish this would have been the type of game that would have benefited greatly to coming out right before Expo or right before Texas Pinball Festival because the code is so good. Yeah. That you'd want max amount of people coming in and realizing that. I think that's kind of that's kind of where this game is going to go. People are going to play it and start realizing more and more. It's just obviously, you know, you can't based on video. You know, it's you're going to be focused on more negative than you are positive regardless. But I totally understand the next the next sure we focused a lot on optimism. I get it. Megatron. I think that Mac looks pretty sweet. And the fact that it shoots multiple places, that's awesome. One thing we have not talked about, though, is Soundwave. Soundwave mech, pretty legit. Pretty legit. Now, I'm curious, Travis, when that ball, when the balls shoot out of his chest, there is on the left side, there's a sling. There's another sling on the left side. So on the left side, you have an additional sling. On the right side, you have a pop bumper. Do we have, is this, and then the Soundwave mech shoots the balls out. It's a horizontal shot. Is there a lot of horizontal in this game? Like a lot of horizontal movement? Oh yeah. I mean, is that terrifying? Both, which makes it fun. I mean, yeah. Are the outlanes hungry? Are they just, because that's that horizontal movement, just gobbling it up? Well, I say no in the sense that, I mean, if the outlanes are closed in the middle, like they're either all the way down, Or they're in the middle. Like most tournament players are going to be able to stay alive as long as they want pretty much. But if the outlanes are opened up all the way, then yeah, horizontal would be a lot more scary. I think with this, it's just fun because you have so much to do. Not just like a pop bumper in the lower right-hand side that we've seen used previously in several other games, but there's also a target that's right under Soundwave or like a combo jackpot shot or I forget what it is, Combo or cassette combo. Cassette combo. Yeah, yeah. So, I mean, that's fun right there. And then, of course, we talked about earlier with the upper right flipper where it goes with the shadow type shot, Indy 500, or hitting a loop into like a wave ramp 180 type shot. So, I mean, to me, it gives you plenty to do horizontally that doesn't feel boring. It feels like that you have to hit your shots in order to progress. You have to hit shots in some modes correctly or, you know, you're hitting it for Megatron or whoever else you could be hitting it for. So what about the drop, the three drop targets? Obviously, they've got the Megatron shot. They're freaking awesome. But do they block the center shot and the right ramp as well or not as much? Slightly. Not as much. You still you still got to hit your shots. So it's not as egregious as putting which I go back and forth. Sometimes I like the idea of drop targets in front of a ramp. Other times I'm just like, OK, this is the dumbest thing ever. Like, I just have a love-hate with it. But I think if it's implemented right, it's just fine. So something like this, I don't mind because it's obviously blocking Megatron, the entrance there. But it does make that right ramp even extra challenging to begin with. So that's cool. But I do like the idea of having the game fight back a little bit, too. Like having drop targets in unique spots, that's not, it's challenging, but it's not infuriating. It's not like the Scoleri brothers on Ghostbusters where they pop up, you get air balls everywhere or anything like that. This actually feels fun.
    82:04
    Tom, you're most versed in the LE buying, you know. The dual colored powder coating, do you like it? Do you not like it? The red on the left, the purple on the left? It's okay. Okay. I remember having it on the original. Okay. So, I mean, it's fine. It's fine. Okay. I guess I understand why they're doing it because like one half is Autobots, the other half is Decepticons. So it makes sense. But, yeah, I guess it doesn't really bother me.
    82:56
    Okay. I mean, if it bothered me, I wouldn't buy the LE, I guess. There was, there was, oh wait, you did. I did. You did.
    83:11
    Tom's in. We got him. I don't want to glaze over that. We got him. So, you have been kind of like the pro guy. You've been, you know, what was the last L.E. you bought? Wasn't it Jaws? It was Jaws. Yeah. So, you had bought a Pokemon Pro. They suckered me. Come and gone. They suckered me, Joel. So, Star Wars is a pro, too? Yeah.
    83:36
    So, you're a little AT-AT. He doesn't go up and down? At-at? No. Just needed it. And you can play? You can have fun without that? I needed Megatrend to shoot the ball. Okay. And King Kong, you scared of gong. You like pro. So that's pro. D&D, didn't you buy the pro for that too? For D&D? Yeah. Yeah, when I had it, yeah, I had pro. Pro? King Kong, pro. Pro? Wick? Pro? I don't even know. Should we not even? Is this a new? He's back.
    84:12
    With Transformers. We're back. What was it? What was it, Tom? You had to have Megatron shoot the ball? What was it? It was that the expression light. The foil cabinet.
    84:30
    You look pretty sick in person. I'm usually not big on that. I look sick in person. Let me tell you, foil cabinets look way better.
    84:39
    My X-Men LE right here. It's got it. It's a it's a once you once you dabble, once you once you get the LE in your house, all of a sudden, I mean, this is straight up first world problems, but like that mirror back glass looks looks real. Do you remember when we went to the media day for WIC and I was just like I was drooling over the WIC LE art? Like I was just like, oh, my God, that looks so good. Which the side art, a lot of it gets hidden, you know, when it's in a while. The side art doesn't. But that back glass, I will say this is, there's a, what's the guy's name? He's over in the Netherlands. There's a guy that does, he does mirrored back glasses.
    85:23
    And so one of my local friends was like, hey, we can save on shipping if we get more than one. So I actually got the Brian Allen version of this Cactus Canyon in a mirrored back glass. Oh, that's true. I have no idea. It might be a few months before I get it. No idea. But I was like, because X-Men's right here with a mirrored back glass, it's like I got like it bothers me. It stands out. So, yes, for the people that dabble, but I that that once you get an LE, it's like it's like crack.
    85:53
    Oh, and then Dune, when Dune shows up, I'll be getting the mirrored back glass. Like it's a whole new it's a new problem. But I'm proud of you, Tom. Welcome back. Welcome back to – so that was it. It was the art that sold them. I couldn't let the viewers down.
    86:10
    The art on this, we haven't talked – I think the art's pretty phenomenal. They have not said clearly who the artists are. They said, you know, it sounds like Zombie Eddie managed it, but I'm curious if this is one of those situations where Hasbro actually did a lot of the art And Zombie Yeti gave him some direction. You know, well, this is what's going to work with Pinball or what? I don't know. But they never said who did the art.
    86:43
    With that said, though, I think the art looks pretty good. I don't have any complaints. Tom, were you a fan of this show? Did you watch this?
    86:51
    A little bit. I wasn't, like, a huge fan. I didn't collect Transformers or anything like that. But I would watch it. I mean, it wasn't like the show I really liked growing up was Thundercats. Oh.
    87:11
    So. Maybe one day. Maybe. I just assumed you just sat around and listened to Rush. That's all you did. That was part of it.
    87:19
    Okay, so the art is great. The LCD screen. One thing that really excites me about this is it's very clear. I think they said they got the first 70 episodes of the show they have access to. They also, when the sound, when the clips are playing, the sounds are also playing. Like, they got the sound clips. So none of this weird, the clips are singing or they got voice actors. Like, they got it. They got the actual clips with the actual audio in the game. And then they got access to the movie, which is going to be its own unique thing. But then it also looks like they were given permission to like put pinball into the clips. So there are times where it looks like it's a clip, but then we've obviously put art. I say we, but like Stern has put art over it. So the fact that Hasbro was cool to like, yeah, like use the clip, but then put your thing in it so it fits within the world. So there's actually, so what's interesting about it, Stern has been able to do art to where they make it look just like the cartoon. Yeah. With the grain, everything, or whatever artistic vibe that is, to where it's not upscaled or anything like that. It literally almost seems like it's been downscaled to match up with what the original clips are. So I did notice some people weren't able to tell the difference if it was a clip from the show or a clip there. But, I mean, you'll start to realize which ones are which, but it's pretty interesting, though, that they were able to get it as close as they did. I think for somebody that doesn't like the LCD screen too much, I can appreciate that attention to detail. I think it's real cool. And part of this feels like, well, they had a lot more time. They were able to get further in the game. So a lot of this stands out right at the get-go. But obviously the direction it's going is amazing. And then the audio side of it, to get two voice actors from the original show doing call-outs, it's kind of a... I mean, let's be honest. If Optimus Prime moved, what would people complain about? Like, what is there to complain about this game?
    89:32
    If besides that, like, I just think it's... I just think that's pretty amazing. And so that's why I just I would encourage people. There's some people that have already discredited this game because of because of Optimus. And I just I think that's a shame because there's there's a lot. I bet you half of them, once they play it, will change their minds, change their mind. Yeah. Yeah. Well, I'm telling you this. I don't know how much this game will break out, but I think once people start playing on location, You're going to see the tune change like very, very quickly, I think. And now, of course, there's going to be some holdovers that they're just simply never going to play it because they don't see a thing fold up and look like a pickup truck or a diesel truck or whatever. But, you know, it is what it is. I just think people that are getting past their first impression and they're ready to have their second impression once they get a hands-on impression with it, then cool. I think we're going to see a lot of people change their tune just based off that alone. Yeah. Well, I think all three of us have talked enough about Transformers to cash our checks, right? You know, that we've killed it hard enough. I'm excited for this game. I'm excited for this game. There's no doubt about that. Email for my address, please.
    90:57
    You haven't gotten your check yet? They may be sending it to the old address. I'm excited. I'm excited for this, and obviously we're going to see a lot more of that in the future. Joel, you know what else I'm excited about? Please tell me. Tom's streaming if that's all I'm excited about. Worlds. He's got Worlds coming out. Worlds. And Whopper Chopper. The week before.
    91:23
    Sick. If people are at this point in the podcast and you somehow skip the first ten minutes, give Tom a sub on Fox News. He needs 20 more. 20 more and you kiss Joel. By the end of May. At Expo. It's got to be by the end of May. Okay. Not the kiss, the subs. The kiss comes at Expo. I'm not driving the jolt.
    91:50
    Tom, where is Worlds? It's at District 82 Pinball in De Pere, Wisconsin. Nice. And how many people are sleeping at your house? A few. There might be a world champion from Italy staying over for a little bit. Oh, that's pretty cool. Yeah. That's pretty cool. That's awesome, dude. Yeah. You can tune Foxy's Pinball. Feel free to watch it. What date is that? When is that?
    92:17
    Well, the Whopper Chopper is May 28th through the 31st, and then the Worlds is June 5th through the 7th. And don't forget that awesome cup. Yes. The Epstein Cup. Joel? You know the Epstein Cup? That's the one where they have, what is it? It's like they have the countries compete. Yeah, the Epstein Cup. Yeah, Epstein. It's awesome. We have, yeah, it's Team Europe. Europe interviews USA. Yep, and apparently Team Escher this year. Team Escher in Australia. Yep. That traitor, he's over there now. Yeah, but we got Team USA, so go Team USA. We'll steal one of theirs one of these days. We do need to give a shout out to good old Neil Graf. He crushed it at Yagpin. He did well. Just crushed it at Yagpin. So that's got to be a proud Papa moment to see him up there. For sure.
    93:18
    So you have like fully accepted at this point that he's better. I knew that like three years ago. Okay.
    93:29
    Them reflexes, man. I still try, though. That's awesome. That's please. Never give up. What else do we have? Winchester New Code. Have you touched it at all, Tom? Are you still loving that game? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. The new code's good. It's great. And there's more. We'll stream out one of these days. Promise. Sick. On Fox News. Pinball on Switch. Batman 66. So what else do I have to say about that? I don't understand it, but the right ramp on that game, like the ball always makes it up. Like I just even if I just at least on this game for whatever it like whatever the pitches of that ramp, every time I think I might have not have hit that clean enough or there's enough power to make that ball, it just it always makes it up. Like I just it like it very nice And I like It the fans in the game that push the ball That right Yeah That right I really enjoying that game I really enjoying that game The carousel is very cool and what continues to amaze me with that game is it was the first Spike game It's like, how did they? They started so strong. I know right out the gate, I know right out the gate that game was awful. It took a long time to get where it is now. But I just feel like Lyman really set the bar. It was kind of crazy when Batman 66 came out. There was people that were happy, but then people that just absolutely shit on the game too. Because they had it. I think it was, wasn't it Tom for the Super LEs to where people had to send in a video? Yeah, or something like that about it. Right. I remember they had it at Expo, but it was like, you could only look at it. Yeah. Couldn't touch it, yeah. You can touch it. You can just stare at it. I remember that. Was it 80 units? I think that's what I'm reading. There's 80 Super LEs, there's 200 something LEs. There really weren't. Because part of it, this is my, I'm becoming a snob, but I want that mirrored back glass. Come to find out there was no mirrored back glass. No. For any of the models. None of the models in Batman 66 have mirrored back glass. I remember they had the black powder coating with like the sparkle. Cool. And then the pretty cool topper. The topper looked kind of cool. The Batmobile topper was exclusive to the Super LE or the LEs, so there's not many of those out there. And they made a lot of the premiums. There's plenty of those. But I will tell you, this is the first time in my pinball collecting career that I've been hesitant to buy a game because of fear that they're going to make a newer game. They're going to make a newer model. This game's been out a long time. And with Stern making anniversary editions of certain games, there's that little bit of me that's like, if they brought that game into Spike 3, you had Expression Lights, you had the bigger screen, just take the game. Put the game in. You don't have to adjust anything. Put the game in and just take the play field and give me big screen. Give me expression lights. Don't touch the code. Like, I'm happy. That's fine. Now, we have one problem, though. Who's going to do the art? Because Christopher Franchi doesn't work with Stern anymore. So, just do the same art. Can they? Can they do that? I have no idea. I don't know how contracts work. Zero idea. I would love for them to not, to use the same. Like, just that art. That's an amazing game. But there is that bit of me that like the last thing I want to do is buy that. And then six months later, Stern announces, hey, guess what? So just to be clear, are you saying you don't want to buy it because you think they'll redo the art? You think the art's going to be better? Is that what you're saying? There's a chance they would redo the game as in they would like if I I don't want to pay over premium price for that. Franchi would be all over you if that's what you're about to say. No, no. I thought that's what you were saying at first. No, what I'm saying, I would be like the guy that bought Metallica and then six months later Metallica remake comes out. Gotcha. It's just more about the LCD and possibly. Yeah. Well, you said you don't want the rules touched. Are you afraid of updated rules? What would they, what, what needs updated in that game? I mean, maybe, I mean, we didn't talk. Could you kind of a point? It's just more or less just, I guarantee it's probably not necessarily updating rules, but more or less just cleaning up. Rough edges of the code, polish, stuff like that. Maybe. Ray did that with, yeah, Ray did it with Metallica. If he could. And it worked just fine. Yep. I mean, I did say with the minor villains. Really good. You know, with the minor villains, could you balance those anymore? I mean, are you saying we don't need Ray? Maybe that's what you're saying. I don't need, I don't ever need. Didn't he say that like a couple podcasts ago? He did. Yeah. I thought he was taking shots at Franchi. It turns out he's taking shots at Ray this whole time. Dude, I will continue to take. I mean, I give credit when credit's due. Ray Day's done some good stuff. Ray's been streaming a lot, too.
    98:49
    Oh, yeah. He's streaming on Mondays. Yeah, he's streaming at the Pinball Capitol. He's trying to take my job.
    98:59
    He's going to start streaming. Ray Day Pinball? Something like that? Yeah, Ray Day Pinball. Yeah. No, I like Ray. He's all right. I don't know. But I will say that is a weird feeling. To feel like I am hesitant to buy a game out of fear that they might make a newer game. So I'm getting that tiny bit of a taste of what the collectors have when a Jurassic Park newer edition comes out or a Jaws anniversary comes out. And it's like, oh, well, or Elvira, another edition. It's like, ah, I wasn't, I don't know. Were you, Tom, you own Metallica, right? Were you upset when the remake came out? I actually sold the game before the remake came out. Out of fear of the remake?
    99:47
    That was part of it, but part of that, but I didn't really plan on buying the remake, to be honest. I kind of just had my fella Metallica, and I was like, yeah, I'm good. Maybe you heard Ray was on code. No, I just, yeah, I just was like, I saw the trailer, and I was like, Damn. No, it's awesome. They really hit it out of the park. I might want to get one of these. It's really, it's very good. It's very good.
    100:21
    I have other questions if we want to keep going. You know, if you want to keep, we can keep talking. What type of questions, Joel? What do you got? I don't know what it is.
    100:31
    Well, one thing, one thing we've played this, and I'm curious, I'm kind of putting you on the spot. But one of the games we played was we played this last week on the stream was top 10 games. OK. Oh, it's changed. So this is since Wednesday. The top 10, Pinside's top 10. Which two games would you take out of the top 10? And then what would you replace them with? That was the game. So the current top ten is Godzilla, Harry Potter, Jaws, Jurassic Park, Medieval Madness, Attack from Mars, Evil Dead, Dune, Metallica Remastered, Monster Bash.
    101:10
    Those are the current top ten. So which two would you take out and what would you replace them with? So this is where we start talking about John Wick because at the time Elvira was in this list. Yeah, it was number one. Yeah, it was because the Bloodsuckers edition shot it up. Elvira is now number 13.
    101:35
    So like Mike, Mike Castleman with Pinballers, he said, I forget what he took out. He took out Monster Bash and Medieval Madness and he replaced it with King Kong and John Wick. That's fair. He's he thinks King Kong might be Elwin's best game. I don't think I'd put Wick in the top ten, but King Kong's a good pick.
    102:04
    So I would probably – okay, go ahead. Well, I was going to say, when I did this on Wednesday, I took out Elvira, and I took out Medieval Madness, and I brought in Metallica Remastered. It was actually 11 at the time. And then I brought in – I put Batman 66. I was like, if I'm going to take a lineman game out with Elvira, I'm going to put Batman 66 in. I already know what I'm doing. Let's do it, Tom. Okay. What are we doing? We're getting rid of medieval madness. We're putting Rush in.
    102:36
    So why? Let's real quick. Why is medieval madness out? That game was number one for a long time. Because I can only shoot the castle so many times. I think that is essentially what every single person said out of the four of us that did this. That's fair. Okay. Okay, okay.
    102:52
    The other one, I'm going to say, yeah, I'm putting Russian. The other one, I'm going to probably say Evil Dead, although I do think it's a great game. Okay. Top 10, it's close. And I'd probably throw Iron Maiden back in there. It looks like it's 11. Mm. So. Okay. So you really, so Elwin, Elwin's getting Jaws, Jurassic Park, Godzilla, and Iron Maiden. Hell yeah. Four out of the ten. Yeah. But Dune, you don't, sorry, you don't have Kong. You don't have Kong up there. Yeah. You can't have it all. So can you be, I need you to be real honest with me. I mean, I'll be real honest with you. I might even put Avengers in that top ten. Ooh, son. Well, the question I have for you, is Rush a top 10 game? To me, yes. Because it's Rush. No. Or is it because it genuinely lay out shots? I didn't put turtles in my top 10. I think it shoots good. The rules are good. There's so much depth to that game. Mm-hmm. I think it's a great game. If you put a different soundtrack in there, I'd probably pick it for the layout. So let's say take Rush. Take everything that is Rush, but it's Led Zeppelin. Yeah. It's in there. Okay.
    104:23
    I don't know why the hell they did a time machine, but... In Led Zeppelin, yeah. Where's the stairway? We got a time machine? No, I get it. I respect the title. I love it, Tom. I love it. Travis, what do we got? What are we?
    104:38
    I would take out Medieval Madness and Evil Dead. So original. I know. It's really what Tom's saying. I'm going to put Iron Maiden in there. Yeah. I would do that. Yeah. What's the next one? Kong?
    104:58
    Avengers? Yeah. I would legit put Avengers up there. And it's not because I'm a big Marvel fan. I think I love the rules so much on that game. I don't care if other people think it's convoluted. I think it's the way that the rules are done, you can totally ignore the gems and be just fine, right? Or you can choose to do something with the gems and place it, and it changes the whole complexity of your game. How you want it like and it ultimately depends on if you're one to play a drop target heavy game, because if you place a gem on there, it makes those do something different. That gives you a bunch of side features that you could do. So it's so in depth that you can choose multiple ways to attack it. And that's what I love about that game, that rule set. Plus, I think the layout is just fun to shoot, too. So that could be that could have been my little pony. And I would have put it into the top 10 just because of those two reasons right there. I mean, honestly, there's so many good games, like, just in the top 50.
    106:07
    Yeah. Yeah, well. I mean, Avengers is all the way down at 33. I know. It's not like it's close to the top 10. That's a ways down there. I was trying to think of it because it's like, I know this isn't the right way to think of it, but I was trying to be fair, which is like, okay, well, in the top 10, is Stern's best game somewhere in here? And I was like, arguably, I think Stern's best game is probably either Godzilla or Jaws. So I was like, that's my opinion. I was like, yep, they're in there. Okay. So is J.J.P.'s best game in here? Well, I think, personally, I think J.J.P.'s best games are either Harry Potter or Elton John. And Harry Potter's right there at number two.
    106:50
    I do think Evil Dead is awfully close, though. After playing it enough times it shows, I think it's super close. I'm not discrediting the game. You're just giving me the option, like, you need to remove two of these. Well, it's hard, too, because ultimately, too, if we remove those games, we're basically asking ourselves now, is Evil Dead better than Monster Bash?
    107:17
    You know, obviously people think so in the aggregate, because it's more. You removed it. You removed it over Monster Bash. Right. I do. I think Monster Bash is one of the most fun games there is. Just because the theme's goofy. I think the layout is just a lot of fun to shoot. I think it's fun when you hit a ramp and it just barely goes and then it gains the speed. You're like, will it go? Will it not? I love Monster Bash. That's what I'm going through that. I'm like, is CGC's best game in there? It's campy. Well, I think CGC's best game. I mean, I'm a fan of Cactus Canyon. That's why I own it. But I do think Attack from Mars is amazing. And I do think Monster Bash is amazing. So I'm like, OK, I think it's good. I think those deserve to be there, but not all three. Medieval Madness, I think, is not is below. Like I would personally own Attack from Mars and Monster Bash before I don't. I mean, I would own an evil debt if they weren't 15 grand right now. Sure. It's a great game. It's just a fun game. It's to judge it, though, too, because we're going to have so much recency bias or whatever that's called. I mean, it's like who's going to put a solid state in their top ten over something? You know, it's awfully hard. But I will say this is my favorite game over a lot of games. This is in my top five. Problem world drivers is what he's pointing to. Yeah, exactly. Top five of all time. And we're talking a late 70s solid state game. So when we're discussing this, it's hard to weigh it against it. Everything I said is Barrels of Fun's best game in there. And without thinking, I was just like, yeah, Dune's in there. And then somebody's like, wait, realistically, though, shouldn't Winchester be in this list? And then it was one of those like, oh, Winchester isn't even there isn't 50 reviews like Winchester isn't in the list at all. And that's one of those limited run. Yeah, it's just that is such an that's when I'm like, oh, is Winchester better than Dune? It might be. That's a really good game, and I would hope that once there's enough reviews, it's going to be up here in the top 25.
    109:23
    It may or may not. So I don't know. It was an interesting experience. Hey, write in the YouTube comments or email us, Triple Train, or write on Facebook. Let us know. Let us know which two you take out. I mean, you can say Travis and I are high. It's fine. Well, no. I just don't think Travis is original. He just copied you.
    109:41
    You let him go first. Travis and I think very similar. I'll pull a game up that should be a lot higher. Is it an EM?
    109:53
    Let's look in the bottom 100. Let's see. I was going to say that I do think Pulp Fiction could possibly be up there. Like, I'm a big fan. Do you own Pulp Fiction, Tom? I used to. I don't anymore. Okay, so tell Prash directly why you sold the game.
    110:15
    No. That's a shitty ass code. That's what he's going to say. No LCD. You didn't know what to do. You know, no custom color. You didn't know what to do. All right. I'm going to tell you guys the game that is criminally underrated. Okay, please tell me. Okay. Tom, tell me if you agree or not. Okay. Let's see if you can guess it. It's all true, man. It's from 2005.
    110:45
    Okay. 2005. So that would be last year. That's way before. Is it like Congo? I don't know. I need a list. Or something. I don't know. I'm just trying to think. It's Sopranos. Oh, you've talked about that a lot. You've talked about how that game meets. I don't think that game is like spectacular. I think it's fantastic. It's good. It's good. The theme. Right. Yeah. Joel, what does the stripper pole do? It's Vince. It's Vince. We brought it all the way back, brother. 20 plus years ago. So this is my other question for you guys, which is we're talking about mechs and it's like, okay, realistically that, so Transformers has, they have two very active mechs and Optimus would have almost been three. So would that game have been considered loaded at that point? So my question to you, and I just, real quick, if I say what loaded game, like what's the game that just popped into your head? When you hear what is a loaded game, what game popped into your head? Like that game's loaded with mechs. And I was trying to think about that. And there's two that always pop into my head. Okay. But do you want me to go first? No, I'm not thinking about it. I'm like, I'm like, how the hell is Radical 170th?
    112:09
    We got to say it at the same time then so I don't copy you. Elvis is 180. Okay, so let's say you go first, Travis. What's your loaded game?
    112:23
    The most loaded game? Just what was the quick thing? Yeah, what's popped in your head? That is like, if you're saying Godzilla is now the North Star, what's another game that you feel? Well, that's the problem. I feel like we've already established that. So me, it would be Godzilla. Yeah, just because I think of it from a theme standpoint, too. So brought together. I mean, if we think of just something that's just impressive and what it can do, I mean, then to me, it's medieval madness with the castle, even though it's tiresome to it all over and over again. Because it does so much different stuff. And it's so prominent on the play field. The two games that popped in my head, one of them was Toten. And people are going to, of course, you're chilling because that's the next game. But Toten gets compared to a lot because of the genie, because of the spinning ramp, because of the crazy whimsical ramps with multiple diverters. Interesting plunge on the right. You got the cages that your ball saves on the outlanes. Like, pretty loaded. Pretty loaded game. Another one was I Got Lord of the Rings. I Got Lord of the Rings seems pretty loaded. But that game is loaded in a way you got the figures all over. Those are just cosmetic. You got that upper play field. That's just cosmetic. The what is it? The tower that falls in the back. That's not the ball that's causing it to fall. That's just a cosmetic thing.
    113:48
    The ball wrong. This sounds like you're onto something here, Joel. Yeah. The ball wrong. You do bash that when you actually interact. But you have the sword ramp on the right. That's cosmetic. You got the crazy the ramp that comes out. I understand the ring in the back is a magnet, but the way that that wire form, there's the whimsical wire form back there, that was one of those that was standing out to me. I think that game is considered loaded, but a lot of that is just unique ramps, cosmetic mechs. Like, besides the Balrog, I don't know. That was, maybe people think I'm smoking crack, but those were the two that popped into my head just right off the bat. Tom, do you have anything that we haven't said that you hear that's a loaded game? No.
    114:34
    Nothing. Okay. I got nothing. Okay. I'm just, maybe I missed it, but like I'm looking for Hot Wheels on this list.
    114:49
    Oh, the top 100? I don't see it. I don't see it in the top 300. It may not even have a ranking. I was going to say modern games. You have something with Godzilla, but I think Evil Dead is pretty loaded. That game is pretty loaded. There's plenty of new in there. And then Beetlejuice is pretty loaded.
    115:21
    They know what they're doing. Is it not ranked? No, 141. Where's Legends of Valhalla? Less than 141. Are you sure about that? Nope. People love podcasts with people just browsing the internet.
    115:42
    We're doing live. Well, it's more for... Wait, what? This is saying this game has only received four pin side reviews. It needs 46 more to be ranked. That's Legends of Valhalla. Really? Now that's his Riot Pinball. Oh, let me do the American Pinball one. That's why. That's why.
    116:03
    It's 123. Higher than Hot Wheels. Okay. You guys think so? That's higher than TTS. I saw it at 123 and I was like, I mean, I don't think it's a bad game. I'm not saying that, but I'm just like, people think it's better than Hot Wheels. Okay. That's cool, I guess. Whatever. Yeah. Well, we have Weird Al. That's ranked 121. So it's actually ahead of everything from from American Pinball. The highest one. Heist is 117. I did not realize it. What's the highest one? Portal deserves to be a nice portal. Yeah, portal is awesome. Portal is the best piece. Is Looney Tunes better than Congo?
    116:59
    No, but guess what is nearly at 100? Halloween. Yeah, I saw that. 104. If it only had more scoops, you know. Joel, that game is ranked higher than the Beatles Gold Edition. That is absurd. Beatles is incredible. Beatles is really a fun game. We know that we lost all our viewers.
    117:25
    No, it's either people are like, oh, yeah, or they're like, you're an idiot. I better shut up. A little bit of everything. Somebody asked me what the top five Stern games are, and part of me feels like I was trying to go for sobriety. I didn't want to just say five Elwins, and so I put Beatles in it. I was like, if you're going to only have five Stern games, like just from a variety standpoint, that's single level. How many Max are in Beatles?
    117:50
    Standout Max. There's a spinning disc. Is there a transforming Beatles? No, no, no, no. You're right. Nailed that one.
    118:01
    Does Paul turn into John? I also had Ray listen, look away, but I think Foo Fighters might be in my top five. Once again, because I was going for variety. I really do miss Foo Fighters. I had it. I streamed the pro. I had a good time. I streamed the LE, I think, recently. Tom, you saw your Foo Fighters, right?
    118:23
    Yeah, I just streamed it. I got to the wizard mode on stream today. You streamed it today. I streamed it today and got to the final battle. You paused that long to know whether or not you still had it. Well, no, I was in the middle of something. You're interrupting me. Yeah, you're right. I was just like, man, this guy owns so many games. If this is a hard question on whether or not he owns these games, but good for you, dude. I got to check in my third warehouse.
    118:56
    Where's storage? Foo Fighters is legit. Like that game, I really love the way that game shoots. And it's funny. And the modes feel different. And I really like that game.
    119:10
    Yeah. We can go into that. We don't have to go into that now. But I think the top five games is. So here's what would be interesting if Pinside does this or not, but like actually have like a graph of where a game ranked like at a certain time period and where it doesn't. But I don't see anything like that. But that would be cool because I see how it's moved. Yeah, because like Tron Legacy is like 48th right now. And I'm sure that was in the top 10 at some point. Oh, interesting. Because people would really gush over Tron. Oh, so you're interested to see how far games have fallen over a long period of time. Yeah.
    119:57
    Okay. I do know there's – well, let us know. YouTube, Facebook, email. Let us know if that's out there. I do know – I think it's – what's his last name? Audie? Interesting. There's a new, it's like Pin Labs or something. There's a new website that they're trying to do more stuff. And I'm curious if somebody, is it Pin Labs? I just make that up. No, that's not, that's no.
    120:23
    Pin Hub? It thought I was saying Pine Labs, which is something totally different. Will, I'm sorry. I know there's a new website out here that he's making. I'm curious. If somebody knows that, is there somebody that tracks or trends ratings over time? Or I wonder if with smart people, if there's a way to just see that using the Internet. I don't know. So let us know. Leave a comment. Maybe we can discuss that. If so, that would be pretty cool to see the rise and fall where things have gone up or down over time. But it's pretty cool.
    120:59
    Well, that's it. That's all I got. I know we hit our – I wasn't trying to hit two hours, but I just realized we hit our two hours. You crushed it. Yeah. I think Tom crushed it. Tom was the true MVP this episode. Thank you. I was glad we went with him. Can I get a gold star?
    121:15
    I mean, I'll give you a hug in a couple of weeks, and you're obviously going to be able to kiss Joel. Well, that's obvious that's going to happen. That depends on the viewers. He needs 20. So really, we just need to spin it. Don't give Tom the 20 subs for anything to do with his partnership with Twitch. Then we'll just basically pay Tom to kiss me. That's what I'm hearing. That's awesome. Maybe that'll be one of those talks at Expo.
    121:46
    We can just talk for like 50 minutes about nonsense. I'll just wish you guys just finish it off with a kiss. I'll wear Persie kisses at Joel.
    121:55
    Sign me up. Sign me up. I prefer you to spit them out of your mouth, though. That could be arranged.
    122:06
    All right. For the three people that are still listening, thank you for being here. I know Mike's listening. Mike, I hope you're feeling good. I hope you're all cuddled up and ready to go to sleep because Mike listens to us before he goes to sleep. I wore a shirt dedicated to them, too, to Teddy. Look at this. Oh, your lobster shirt. It's a lobster, yeah. Nice. Yep. I thought it was potentially a Dungeon Crawl Carl shirt. I'm ascending. No, not yet. No, no. But I will, as soon as Carl's game comes out, I will wear a shirt. Travis, good luck at Worlds 2. Oh, thank you. I totally forgot. I didn't do that. Joel didn't say thank you. I didn't qualify. I didn't qualify for Worlds. It's okay, Joel. I don't know how I qualified. I don't play anything anymore.
    122:56
    I'm just going to show up there. That's the new stat. You just don't play. You qualify. Awesome. All right. Well, let me plug it up. Tom, you go first. Hi, I'm Tom. I podcast on this channel. I also do a thing called Fox City Spinball, mainly on Twitch, But also on YouTube. Check it out. Sub. Sub a lot. Don't stop subbing.
    123:24
    Definitely watch, even if you don't sub, watch Whopper Chopper and Worlds. That's awesome. Yeah. And check out his merch, Silver Ball Swag. We have some merch also on Silver Ball Swag. You can check that out, both Flippin' Out Merch and Triple G merch and Fox Hades merch and a lot of other fun merch. Thank you, Tom. Like always, thank you so much. Thank you. You really you are the reason I do this. I know. You know, I hope you know. Yeah.
    123:50
    I have a charity case. Go for it, dude. Yeah, you can find me on the Triple Drain Pinball podcast. And in two weeks, hopefully you can find me on the Fox Cities Pinball stream.
    124:06
    Hopefully not doing commentary. Hopefully I'm playing, not getting my ass kicked or embarrassed on on stream. And then you can also find me on YouTube over at the Pinball Company where I do videos and stuff like that. And if you strongly disagree that Optimus should have moved, go find Travis's latest video. Comment there. Comment there about how you disagree. Because you have strong faith, Travis. Hey, bring the algorithm. It's fine. Keep going.
    124:40
    I want the hates. Bring it up. Yeah, and I'm Joel. I do the Flip N Out Pinball stream every Wednesday night with my brother from 10 to midnight, and then obviously I do this stream as well. So check that out.
    124:52
    Tutorial videos there should be. Iron Man's up. I filmed a tutorial for Batman 66, and what else? I need to get a tutorial made for Pokemon, but I'm holding out for more code. I would love some more code there. It was a big deal streaming Batman 66. I have essentially streamed every Spike 2 game at this point, and that's pretty fun. That's pretty cool to have had every Spike 2 in my basement except for the Costco pin. Somebody tried to pull that, that they're like, you never had any in the Costco? Like, I never had Jurassic Park Home Edition.
    125:30
    You know, if you want to throw an asterisk on that, that's fine. But it's pretty cool. It is pretty cool to have streamed every Spike 2 and just see how different they are and how they've changed over time, which is pretty neat. And then honestly, Spike 3 is pretty legit. There's a lot of cool advantages in Spike 3. So that's all I have. Travis, we've heard enough of you. So, yeah, Tom, like always, you get the last words. Good night, everybody.
    126:03
    Thank you.