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Episode 186: The Magic of Dwight Sullivan

Pinball Profile·podcast_episode·28m 32s·analyzed·Mar 16, 2019
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claude-haiku-4-5-20251001 · $0.036

TL;DR

Dwight Sullivan on Monsters design, Star Wars mechanics, and Stern's software expansion.

Summary

Dwight Sullivan, code designer at Stern Pinball, discusses his work on Monsters and recent Stern games in a factory visit interview. He explains design philosophy behind Monsters' accessibility and progression, shares insights on Star Wars multiplier mechanics and TIE Fighter Assault, and discusses the expanded software department's ability to support multiple games and future code updates.

Key Claims

  • Munsters code update v.92 released yesterday (not yet public), fixes bug where Munster Madness allowed 6x then 36x stacking on hurry-ups

    high confidence · Dwight directly stated at factory: 'Munsters had, like, .91 on Munsters had a bug where Munster Madness would let you do 6x and then 36x...So that was bad. It's been fixed? Oh, of course, yeah.'

  • Secret Mania is a flipper code in Munsters that is findable but not yet widely known

    high confidence · Dwight explicitly revealed: 'Secret Mania is a flipper code. Yeah, nobody knows about it yet. It's findable. You can find it... People have been talking about it once in a while. I see it on threads, on forums. But nobody knows about it yet that I know.'

  • Monsters design philosophy deliberately avoids ball saves and complex mode selection paths, inspired by desire to recreate 1990s simple flowing games like T2

    high confidence · Dwight: 'I wanted to try making another 90s kind of game...I wanted to pull it back, not about modes, not about starting modes...I wanted to make it more about you're just shooting some areas and features...no ball save and just back to 90-spin ball again.'

  • Monsters Monster Madness mode deliberately positioned early in progression to be reachable by almost everyone, then replicated at higher difficulty as Level 2

    high confidence · Dwight: 'I wanted it to be reachable by almost everyone. So I had to move Monster Madness up close to the start button...But then I can't make that the end of the game, right? So I need a whole other level.'

  • TIE Fighter Assault in Star Wars requires alternating button presses (every other button kills one TIE Fighter), not continuous tapping

    high confidence · Dwight: 'It was every button, and that was too much, so then I made it every other one...two buttons gives you one TIE fighter.'

  • Stern software department has been expanded and is now at 'good equilibrium' after being 'stretched thin' in previous years

    high confidence · Dwight: 'Over the years, like the last few years, software department was stretched thin. And over time, George has staffed us up. And now I think we're at a good equilibrium, and we can get things done now.'

Notable Quotes

  • “It's meant to be found. I can't wait for somebody to figure it out on their own. It's probably going to be Bowen.”

    Dwight Sullivan @ ~23:30 — Reveals design philosophy of embedding secrets for community discovery rather than direct disclosure; references Bowen Kerins as likely first discoverer

  • “The magic isn't the trick. It's the fooling them. It's the emotion that you evoked in their head.”

    Dwight Sullivan @ ~15:45 — Connects stage magic philosophy to game design; emphasizes emotional/experiential aspects over mechanics

  • “After the epic of Star Wars, and I love Star Wars, I wanted to try making another 90s kind of game. I wanted to pull it back, not about modes, not about starting modes.”

    Dwight Sullivan @ ~37:00 — Explains design pivot from complex rule-heavy games to accessibility-focused design; positions Monsters as intentional counterweight to Star Wars complexity

  • “Right now I'm working on Munsters, and when I'm done working on Munsters, I'll work on other things. I don't want to make any promises, right, because that's where we got into this mess.”

    Dwight Sullivan @ ~56:30 — Addresses past broken promises on code updates; indicates Stern's staffing improvements enable rotating developer focus between games

  • “When I'm asked, how do you play the game, it's very easy to explain, here's what you do in Monsters, in a positive way. Here are the five shots that you need to look at.”

    Jeff Teels @ ~43:15 — Highlights Monsters' accessibility and simplicity as intentional design feature distinguishing it from complex multi-path games

  • “I've listened to you for a while, and I know that you're not the – I mean, you more prefer like Iron Maiden than to Star Wars, or at least you used to. So are you coming around to Star Wars better than it used to be?”

    Jeff Teels @ ~44:30 — Acknowledges Star Wars was initially poorly received; shifting sentiment as players learn rules suggests code/rules matured post-launch

  • “George is very articulate. Leads can only work on one thing at a time. Right now I'm working on Munsters, and when I'm done working on Munsters, I'll work on other things.”

Entities

Dwight SullivanpersonMonstersgameMunstersgameStar WarsgameGeorge GomezpersonJeff Teelsperson

Signals

  • ?

    business_signal: Stern software department expanded staffing from being 'stretched thin' to 'good equilibrium'; enables rotating focus between multiple games and legacy code support

    high · Dwight: 'Over the years, like the last few years, software department was stretched thin. And over time, George has staffed us up. And now I think we're at a good equilibrium, and we can get things done now.'

  • ?

    community_signal: Dwight responsive to player feedback from community members like Josh Sharp and Bowen Kerins on game design elements; incorporates practice techniques into design philosophy

    medium · Dwight: 'Josh gave me some very good advice...that's the way to go...I do [listen to him]...Bowen once told me...I now think of that...The reason he suggests that is because then you see where the bounces are'

  • ~

    sentiment_shift: Star Wars initially received mixed reception due to complexity, but player sentiment improving as community learns rule set; Jeff directly states coming around to the game after learning it better

    high · Jeff: 'I'm now just starting to understand Star Wars...And I said this on the recent podcast...I'm really starting to like Star Wars a lot more and more. And it took me a while.' Dwight: 'So if you want to...There is different paths...you just have to learn them.'

  • ?

    design_philosophy: Dwight deliberately avoids rapid disclosure of hidden codes, preferring community discovery and player realization similar to magic trick philosophy; expects Bowen Kerins to find Secret Mania first

    high · Dwight: 'magicians never tell the secrets...It's meant to be found. I can't wait for somebody to figure it out on their own. It's probably going to be Bowen.'

  • ?

Transcript

groq_whisper · $0.086

0:00
You can do magic. You can have anything that you desire. Magic. It's time now for another Pinball Profile. I'm your host, Jeff Teels. You can find our group on Facebook. We're also on Twitter at Pinball Profile. Email us pinballprofile at gmail.com. And please subscribe on either iTunes, Stitcher, or Google Play. I don't know how it happened. Some way, I saw a crack. Somebody opened the door and I snuck in. I'm here live at Stern Pinball in Elk Grove Village in Illinois. And I'm just seeing, oh, look at this. Look who I ran into. Dwight Sullivan, for the first time ever on Pinball Profile. Great to talk to you, Dwight. How are you doing? Hey, I'm doing great. It's great to meet you, Jeff. I've always been a fan. I love your show. Thanks for not calling security, and I appreciate the compliments, too. Oh, they're coming.
0:46
So we've got to hurry up? Okay. Hey, you know what? The latest game that we're seeing right now is Monsters, which is a beautiful game. It is so fun to shoot. a team, yourself, John Borg, Christopher Franchi. You've got to be thrilled with what's happening. I'm extremely thrilled. It came out really, really well, and it's getting better every day. I mean, more and more people are telling me how great it is and how much fun it is. We thought it was special, and it's becoming special. It's so unique, too, in that there's, unlike some other games, there are major differences between the LE, the premium, and the pro. So you had your work cut out for you. You had to do a lot of extra stuff. Absolutely. But that's always a goal. We always want to make each game special and each game great and very distinct. So the premium and the LE are different because of the black and white. And, of course, the lower play field is awesome to play. Some people don't like it. Some people love it. I love it. I think it's a great distinction. I like that you mentioned that. That is the goal. If you're spending the extra money on the premium or the LE, you're going to get some extra features, not just toys but also some extra code too. And you definitely did that with Munsters. Yeah, that's right. There's features that you don't get on the Pro because they can't be on the Pro because you don't have a lower play field and so on. You realize the whole reason I'm here is for the Stern Pro Circuit Finals, which I'm lucky to be a part of. I'm one of the 40 people there. And one of the games is Munster. So as much as I want to talk to you about, you know. How to win at Munster. Munster is going to have a brand new code that I released yesterday.

  • Ghostbusters code updates will happen when Munsters work is complete, but no timeline promised

    high confidence · Dwight: 'Ghostbusters will definitely get some attention at some point...Right now I'm working on Munsters, and when I'm done working on Munsters, I'll work on other things.'

  • Star Wars action button can be moved between shots during hurry-ups for multiplier stacking, but cannot be switched during multiball

    high confidence · Jeff and Dwight discuss: moving multiplier 'to video mode. In Han...You want it in the hurry-up...Once you get to the ten times and you've only got one as opposed to three' and 'Multiball, you're not switching it.'

    • Dwight Sullivan @ ~57:00 — Confirms George Gomez (creative lead) manages development priorities; implies sequential rather than parallel code work for major titles

  • “Stern is firing on all thrusters, and we don't see an end in sight at this point. It's amazing.”

    Jeff Teels @ ~66:30 — Positive sentiment on Stern's momentum and manufacturing capacity expansion; suggests continued product releases expected

    • John Borg
    person
    Christopher Franchiperson
    Bowen Kerinsperson
    Stern Pinballcompany
    Josh Sharpperson
    Stern Pro Circuit Finalsevent
    Game of Thronesgame
    Iron Maidengame
    Lonnieperson
    Guardians of the Galaxygame
    AC/DCgame
    Ghostbustersgame
    T2 (Terminator 2)game
    Stern Pro Circuitevent

    design_philosophy: Intentional design pivot from Star Wars' complex multi-path structure to Monsters' simple accessible five-shot layout with no ball save, inspired by 1990s games like T2

    high · Dwight: 'After the epic of Star Wars...I wanted to try making another 90s kind of game...I wanted to pull it back, not about modes...I wanted to make it more about you're just shooting some areas and features...no ball save and just back to 90-spin ball again.'

  • $

    market_signal: Dwight mentions George made effort at Expo to explain sequential development model to manage expectations about code updates

    medium · Dwight: 'George tried to tell people back at Expo, and I think he succeeded...Leads can only work on one thing at a time.'

  • ?

    personnel_signal: George Gomez manages development priorities; Dwight Sullivan works on one game at a time sequentially (currently Munsters, then other projects including Ghostbusters)

    high · Dwight: 'George is very articulate. Leads can only work on one thing at a time. Right now I'm working on Munsters, and when I'm done working on Munsters, I'll work on other things.'

  • ?

    product_strategy: Monsters Monster Madness mode available in two difficulty levels (Level 1 early progression, Level 2 as end-game variant) with different rules in Level 2

    high · Dwight: 'Most of the modes have different rules than the level one...And then you play Monster Madness again. And now in the new code, Monster Madness level two and Monster Madness level one are different modes.'

  • ?

    product_concern: Munsters v.91 had multipler stacking exploit in Munster Madness (6x→36x) that was discovered and fixed in v.92 released day before interview

    high · Dwight: 'Munsters had, like, .91 on Munsters had a bug where Munster Madness would let you do 6x and then 36x...So that was bad. It's been fixed? Oh, of course, yeah.'

  • ?

    product_strategy: Stern planning to connect pinball games to Wi-Fi; George Gomez announced at expo; implementation timeline unclear

    medium · Jeff: 'George also announced it at the thing. We're going to try and connect games to Wi-Fi.'

    • 2:17
    Well, I didn't release it. It's not live to the world yet. We're still waiting on some more testing. Are you serious? I'm serious. I joked with Zach Sharp, who I just saw. Oh, he doesn't know. He might not know. As he let me in here, I said, so, with the Stern Pro Circuit and all these Stern games, I assume Saturday morning there will be like three code drops so that none of us will know how to play the game. Now you're telling me there's going to be a code drop. Well, the code drop was coming. It had nothing to do with the tournament. But we always like to keep the latest code. Like when we have launch parties, if there's new code, if there's anything coming up, we always try to bring the newest code to that thing. Try to eliminate the bugs and so forth. Munsters had, like, .91 on Munsters had a bug where Munster Madness would let you do 6x and then 36x and then whatever 6 times 36 is, like, on your hurry-ups. So that was bad. It's been fixed? Oh, of course, yeah. Oh, darn it. I was trying to do that for Stern Pro Circuit. I should really pay attention. Right, right. Okay, really what I need to know, Dwight, is, is there a flipper code? No one's listening to this right now. I mean, I know normally there's thousands. There is. Is there a flipper code that can help me beat some of these sharp guys? Yep, absolutely. Are you going to tell me later? No. They know it. There's a few stern employees in that. No, nobody knows it. All right. But give me a little wink. There might actually be something there. Kaylee will figure it out. Secret Mania is a flipper code. Secret Mania? Yeah, nobody knows about it yet. It's findable. You can find it. You can figure it out. It's in the game. People have been talking about it once in a while. I see it on threads, on forums. But nobody knows about it yet that I know. And it's a flipper code? It's a flipper code. That's a clue. We really do have to talk. I got a big event. I came from Canada. It's not great for tournaments. It doesn't score a lot of points. Oh. You don't want to. Are cows coming up on the thing? No. Oh, all right. No. But it's just supposed to be a little secret that you know, and you can make it happen in the game if you know how it works.
    4:09
    I haven't done something like that in a while. You know, Dwight, ESPN is going to be filming this. Oh, that's awesome. And if I should be lucky enough to be on Monsters and on film, on ESPN, and you tell me this code, I would give props to Dwight Sullivan easily. You know, one of my hobbies is a magician, and magicians never tell the secrets. Sure, sure. I also like to do stand-up comedian.
    4:32
    Really? I do. But the magician in me says, no, you can't ever tell your secrets. It's meant to be found. Hold on a second here. It's meant to be found. I can't wait for somebody to figure it out on their own. It's probably going to be Bowen. but I can't wait for someone to figure it out on their own and then it'll come back full circle. You've got me excited. Now, hold on a second. We're going all over the place and we'll get back to pinball but you've just hit on two of my favorite things here and one is stand-up comedy. My wife and I, Ann, who's sitting across the room. Hi, Ann. How are you? Hi, guys. We're going to Second City tonight. Not that it's stand-up but we love that beautiful, the brilliance of that. And the history of it. Sure, as it were, my Bill Murray show right now. And of course you know Tina Fey was in Medieval Madness Like every pinball fan I know Your background in that? I have no, none Just a passion Like I like to sing but my wife says I'm horrible My wife thinks I'm terrible I like to write comedy but My friends laugh at me But I'm not sure if it's with me or at me Yeah, there's a big difference there, Dwight That's so funny because Anne Who's sitting, now she's got this big smirk Shaking her head, looking at me like You're such a jerk There's a romance developing here Hold on No, no, I saw this a few minutes ago. So I have been asked to emcee several weddings. It's an honor when I don't emcee a wedding because I get to sit back and enjoy. And I will obviously put a lot of preparation into it and write some jokes and have a lot of fun. And people who I don't know at the wedding, which is usually more than half the people, get a kick out of the shtick I do. So I will run my speech by my wife, and she just looks at me like, that's not funny. So that's kind of my meter when I know my wife is right to her, probably. But do you do that joke anyway? I'm 100 percent. Yeah. When Ann gives me the I don't know what's not written for her. I put a big star on. I'm like, that's going to be the she's used to your charm. Charm and charm and stand up comedian. It wasn't similar. It wasn't the bank account. It had to be something anyway. So what about this magic thing? Can I tell you a little quick story about magic? Sure. Love magic. Yeah. Sleight of hand. I've been doing it forever. Sleight of hand? Yeah. Well, a little bit, yeah. Props? What do you? I like all types of magic. Cards? Yeah. But I like stage illusions. I like close-up magic. You know, when my kids were in Boy Scouts, you can go to YouTube and find this. We were the Amazing Sullivans. I made a Houdini trunk, you know, and we did the Metamorphosis illusion where I turned one of my kids into one of my other kids. Wow. Yeah. It was fun If they were ever in trouble you could really do some serious grounding to those kids I mean they gone for a while Where did David and James go They just disappeared Well you know they were bad They talked back to their parents and you won be seeing them for a week I've made lots of jokes like that. That's cool. I once went to, and again, we'll get back to pinball in a second. Do we have to?
    7:24
    You know what? In this show, no, we don't. You're right. But I once went to a place called Colon, Michigan. Right. So you know it. Your eyes just lit up. Yeah, the magic. They have this. God, it's been so long since I've been there. I grew up in Michigan, but I didn't know about Kola, Michigan until I came over here. There's other magic enthusiasts in the building. So in a previous chapter when I used to work at Stern, back, you know, long ago, Lonnie and I would do magic all the time, and we would go to Lincoln. There's a really great magic shop in Lincoln near Melrose Park where we used to work. So we would go up there once a week and hang out and talk magic and buy things. So the Kola, Michigan was a trip for me. The Kola, Michigan is a magic gathering, and it is not really open to the public. It is for magicians only, which I am not one, but because I'm in the media, I said, oh, I'm going to get a media pass. And my buddy was a magician. We went together, and they kind of warned you. They said, look, if you're not into magic, you're going to see how a lot of the secrets are done. So do you want to pull back the curtain and see this? So I did, and there are, I would say, 80%, 90% of all tricks I see now, I'm like, I know how it's done. But now what I look for is the artistry of how they do it and how well it's executed. I was in awe of the magic itself. Now I'm in awe of the performer. Right, right. Knowing how it's done makes you go, oh, that's it? It's not really magic? And I get that when people learn how I do a trick because sometimes I'll flub the trick or I'll screw it up. But when you don't screw it up and somebody gives you that look like you really are magical, that's the magic, right? It's not the trick. It's the fooling them. It's the emotion that you evoked in their head. Okay, we'll get back to pinball. You've created some magic with some recent games, most recently with Munsters, and we're very excited about that. Was that a theme that was dear to you? No, I like Munsters. I used to watch it. I watched Adam Sandler and Munsters. I'm an old guy, but I didn't think it was going to be a great theme. I, in fact, tried to persuade and lobby Stern not to do it, but then I lost, and they said it would be great, and they were right. And it is great. Yeah, it is. It is a wonderful theme. It's a great theme, and I think that I did it some amount of justice. You know, the people who are passionate about certain themes are uber passionate about it. So think of Iron Maiden. I get that all the time. Think of the Iron Maiden fans that are just diehard. Listen, I'm a rock guy. I've been to 300-plus concerts through my radio and all that kind of stuff. And never have I ever seen more concert loyalty than Iron Maiden fans. And I've seen the band five times. I actually got to introduce the band once with Alice Cooper in Sarnia. Oh, that's awesome. Had a big show. So looking out in the audience, there was more passionate fans for the merchandise spot for Iron Maiden than any other concert I've ever seen. If you didn't have an Iron Maiden shirt concert, what were you doing there? Right. So it made sense to me that, you know what, there's going to be some pinball loyalty. You add to the fact you've got a great game, a great company in Stern. You've got Keith doing this game, the number one player in the world. Keith is awesome. And the theme, did it really matter? Because I know a lot of people that never heard an Iron Maiden song but have the game in their home and love the game. Yeah, right, exactly. It doesn't matter. You can make a great game. But it was John's passionate project. So that's the thing with Munsters. So it might not be your theme. I mean, it was going to be Munsters. Munsters was a passionate project for John. It might not be your theme, but it is passionate for a lot of people, and does it matter? If the game is good, does the theme really matter? No, and I'm not a, you know, I like monsters. I knew their strengths and their quality. It's campy, it's, you know, the universal monsters, it's, you know, it's great. But I wasn't sure, I was just so old, and I wasn't sure we needed to do a black and white television show. It turned out awesome. So unlike previous games of yours, more recent games of yours, there are no real paths that I see to Munsters. I mean, there's no real order of operations. When you look at something like Star Wars or Game of Thrones, there are, okay, which way am I going to go? And that was something that was unique about those games. But Munsters, you pulled that back. Right, correct. Is that fair to say? Yeah, no, it's absolutely fair. The story goes like this. George, for years and years, George has been telling me that T2 is one of his favorite games. He has one in his house.
    11:44
    He's like a prodigal of Steve. He tries to make flowing games like Steve has made. He's been telling me, make another game like T2. Make a simple game like T2. I think in today's world, we can't go as far back and as simple as T2. But after the epic of Star Wars, and I love Star Wars. I'm glad I made it an epic game. I wanted to try making another 90s kind of game. I wanted to pull it back, not about modes, not about starting modes and whatever, not about choices like with the flipper buttons where you're prompted on the screen and the ball is held like in Star Wars. I wanted to make it more about you're just shooting some areas and features and you're working your way through and no ball save and just back to 90-spin ball again. I just noticed the no ball save. I was doing the super skill shot, missed the Maryland ramp, and went out the outland. And I went, oh, it's gone. Yeah, yeah. Isn't that great? It is good. I know Josh Sharp can't stand ball saves and stuff, and they should be gone. Yeah, the Sharp brothers have been preaching it forever. But do you listen to them, really? Oh, absolutely. Especially Josh. Really? I do, too.
    12:50
    You pick on Josh all the time. Only because I like him. Because you're friends. I have to pretend like I can't stand the guy, but, yeah, I think he's great for pinball. I think the growth of the IFPA and the competitiveness is awesome. He's an awesome white knight. I don't know if I'd be into pinball as much if it wasn't for the IFPA. And I say that in all sincerity because now I've got a barometer to check and see how well I'm doing against my peers. And, you know, there's always that friendly competition, whether you're playing sports or something like that. And now not only against my friends but against the world and the country and your province or state. I think that's pretty neat. And it's got me hooked. It's very addictive, just like pinball is. So, more monsters. Again, you're now obviously into the game. You've been given the theme. I love the different aspects of every shot is slightly different. So you've got, and I haven't played the Premium or LE yet. Okay. But each character is uniquely different, and it's not just, there's no rinse and repeat I find in that game. You have to play the whole game in order to do well. You have to do all the shots. You have to play each area. Each area is simple. Each area is easy, but you have to do them all Especially in the newer code In the newer code, Monster Madness is a lot of fun And it's going to be worth some points To get through the game and get to Monster Madness And play the game The scoring has been balanced a little bit It still needs a little bit more to go We not at 1 yet We will be soon We very close Your conscious decision to have level 1 level 2 of each character Correct. Because I wanted to... Alright, so early on we knew that the toy was the lower playfield, right? And we knew that you're going to play multiball on the lower playfield. And it became really clear that we wanted to make multiball on both playfields at the same time. And then I'm like, well, you want a progression. You want that to be a goal to reach. But I want it to be reachable by almost everyone. So I had to move Monster Madness up close to the start button. I had to make it easy for most people to get to, reasonably easy for everyone to play two ball, multi-ball on both levels because that just blows you away. It blows your mind when you try to flip all four flippers at the same time and you're playing multi-ball on both levels at the same time. It's really an experience. That's the magic in you. It's like juggling almost in a way, isn't it? Yeah. It really is. It is. But then I can't make that the end of the game, right? So I need a whole other level. So I'm like, well, we're just going to do everything again but harder and slightly different rules. Most of the modes have different rules than the level one. But it's similar. And it's harder to get to. And then you play Monster Madness again. And now in the new code, Monster Madness level two and Monster Madness level one are different modes. Okay. And I don't call them wizard modes. I think I made that mistake once. People throw that term around. I think there's a lot of people who are correct. Monster Man is level one definitely is not in wizard mode. It's just this cool feature that you get for completing the five areas. And then I think everyone will argue about what's the difference between, what the definition of a wizard mode is, and I don't know if we need to do that right now, but I definitely wouldn't call Monster Man is level one a wizard mode. I'll say this about monsters compared to a lot of other games by anybody. When I'm asked, how do you play the game, it's very easy to explain, here's what you do in Monsters, in a positive way. Here are the five shots that you need to look at. In other games, where you might have to select, and some of your games too, whether it's Star Wars or Game of Thrones, there's a little more explanation that's needed. In fact, I just mentioned on a recent podcast I did with Dennis Creasel, I talked about how I'm now just starting. to understand Star Wars. And that's more on me because I am not a good rules guy at all. I just like to flip and then figure out my shots and use flipper skills. It takes me a lot longer to learn rules, and I'm now just starting to understand it. And I said this on the recent podcast I did with Dennis is that, you know, I'm really starting to like Star Wars a lot more and more. And it took me a while. Well, I've listened to you for a while, and I know that you're not the – I mean, you more prefer like Iron Maiden than to Star Wars, or at least you used to. So are you coming around to Star Wars better than it used to be? I go out of my way. Are you having more fun? I go out of my way. Well, first of all, Steve Ritchie to me is my hero. Okay. So that's always going to attract me. Right. And now that I know what I'm doing, the frustration is if you don't know what you're doing, it can't be fun. That's true. So it took me a long time to learn it. And which character do I use and which, okay, what do I do once I've completed this? And now I get it. It took me a long time. I had somebody. Which character do you use? I use Han Solo because of the video mode. Okay, I like Han Solo, but I like finding mistakes. So I started Endor before I started video mode, and my buddy's like, you shouldn't have done that. I'm like, why? He goes, because you've got to do eight shots to complete it. I'm like, so? And I'm like, oh, I'm now on ball three. I still have to complete it. I get it now. But he goes, but if you choose R2-D2, that's the way to go, and you stack it with something else. I'm like, oh, okay. So there's different patterns. There is different paths, yeah. I just have to learn them. Yeah, well, if you want to. Right. I'll give you another example. We'll bring up your games, too, and we'll get back to Star Wars in a second. Game of Thrones. We play the pro at this place called Pinup Arcade in Waterloo, Ontario. And all the games are on free play. You just pay an admission to get in. So it's great and a great way to learn games. And that's why I'm now more into Star Wars. I've always loved Game of Thrones. But what we do for fun on Game of Thrones is like, you know what? Okay, which character are we going to do? And then we all have to play that. Like Martel or Baratheon. We always did Martel and we always did Tyrell. Those are the two that we did. But now we're like, oh, let's do Greyjoy. Let's do Lannister. Let's do something. Everybody but the dragons. That's right. Okay. Targaryens. Targaryens, yeah. Here's what took me a while to get around Game of Thrones. One, when the game came out, I had never seen the show. I'm well caught up, and in fact, I've almost watched it twice now. Oh, yeah. So that helped. But now... It's one of the best shows ever. It is. April 14th, it's coming out on HBO. Quick plug. So now I understand it. And it's easier for me to explain to somebody, but it was harder for me to... But the game's pretty abstract, right? I mean, it just loosely borrows the themes of the different houses and the different politics. and it, you know. Hey, look, Walking Dead is nothing like the TV show, but it's still a great game. You know what I mean? Yep, yep, yep. It's more the theme that attracts you to put that money in the game. Right. All right, back to Star Wars. Yes, so when the action button came out, Dwight, and I'm looking you right in the face right now because I'm not going to talk out of the side of my mouth. When it first came out, I'm like, are you kidding me? I've heard you say it on your podcast. I'm like, I've just done a tour here of the Stern factory here. It's, I think, 100,000 square feet. 110,000. 110,000, 40,000 of it is just the action button center. I could be wrong. Yep, it is. But you know what? Josh gave me some very good advice. It's that important. It is important. Josh gave me very good advice. You know what? Set it. I leave it. I never touch it again. Right. That's fine. And he's right. Right. That's fine. I mean, if you were cradled up, maybe you can switch it. Right. Multiball, you're not switching it. You just want to make sure it's on. But you want to move it to video mode. In Han. Well, anytime you're playing video mode, you want to move it to video mode. But you want it in the hurry-up. You want it in the depth-first. You want it in the hurry-up, yep. Once you get to the ten times and you've only got one as opposed to three. Yeah, yeah. I get it. Right. But in a tournament, though, somebody that's adept at it, is that the right word, will still beat you. If they can move their multiplier around to the next shot, they're going to do well. Oh, yeah. I'm sure I'll get smoked tomorrow at the Stern Pro Circuit. But anyway, it's more fun. Now, I'm curious about, like I said. I love that rule. I love the whole moving the multiplier around. I think it's great. You've made something unique. And I'm proud of that. The bashing of the TIE Fighters, only because I'm an incredible drummer am I fine with that. I joke about it. The bang, bang, bang, bang, bang. But I think Tim Sexton once told me, he goes, it doesn't matter how fast you do it, there's only a maximum you can get. Is that true? No, it's not true. So if I go more beats per minute than the next guy, I'm going to get more TIE Fighters? Correct. Really? Maybe the animation isn't as fast as the tapping. It tries to catch up, but sure, you can go faster than the animation. So I will win in that. You will. I should stop complaining about the action button. Yeah. One thing that people don't often know is it's every other button that actually kills a TIE fighter. It was every button, and that was too much, so then I made it every other one. Oh, okay. But still, you still have to, you know, so two buttons gives you one TIE fighter. Bowen once told me and everybody who listens you know if you can practice playing one that will make you a better pinball player And he absolutely right So I now think of that Oh that also a little crazy No you know what The reason he suggests that is because He's an old friend of mine. Sure. The reason he suggests that is because then you see where the bounces are, and you can really slowly game down. So what does he mean? He means only with your right hand or only one hand at a time? Well, to practice one hand. And so if you're using your right hand and it goes in the left flipper, you've got to switch it over there. But it really slows the game down, and it makes you a lot better. In fact, I was just doing a stream with my buddy Ian Harrower on the old Stern Classic Stars, and we just said, let's play one-handed. Our one-handed games were better than the game we played after with two. Isn't that interesting? So my point is, I now take that philosophy, okay, one-handed, and use the other hand for the action button, I'm okay. For during TIE Fighter Assault. Absolutely. I don't think it's that complicated. I think you're much better than I am. And I love that people, that you make a game and then people do things with it you didn't really expect. Like when they made Star Trek and people were using their chin to hit the button. You know, right? Yeah. You know, you don't think about that when you're making the game. So when you're with one hand to play and you're saying, what I do is I'm like, okay, the hurry up is running. The hurry up is running. If I grace that target, if I grace that target, I have a couple of seconds before the ball is back at the flippers. and then I probably am not in danger of draining, right? So I just start hitting the button as fast as I can and I hope that it's not coming straight down the middle or not coming to where I need to worry about it. I let it bounce, I let it hit a sling, whatever. I keep hitting the button. It's only six seconds. The whole TIE Fighter assault is six seconds long. I play it. I enjoy it much more. I used to go out of my way to not play it. I now go out of my way to play it. So it's taken me a while to come around. It's the easiest path to the multi-ball, TIE Fighter multi-ball. Because TIE Fighter multi-ball is 35 TIE Fighters, and you get 16 of them maybe from TIE Fighter Assault. 24 for this kid. I'm that fast. Wow. I'm just kidding.
    23:29
    All right. Now, I'm talking to you, and even though this isn't live and in real time, my ears somehow are ringing. People are asking me, what about Ghostbusters and what about the code? What's the timeline, you think? You're working on other things. I am. I am working on other things. That's the thing that George tried to tell people back at Expo, and I think he succeeded. George is very articulate.
    23:53
    Leads can only work on one thing at a time. Right now I'm working on Munsters, and when I'm done working on Munsters, I'll work on other things. Yes. And I don't want to make any promises, right, because that's where we got into this mess.
    24:04
    But Ghostbusters will definitely get some attention at some point. You know what? Have faith is what I say to everyone, because not that it needed it, but all of a sudden we noticed, wow, this 2013-2012 ACDC game just got new code. It came out of nowhere. No one was expecting it. So I think it's kind of that same, when the time is available, you'll get it. Over the years, like the last few years, software department was stretched thin. And over time, George has staffed us up. And now I think we're at a good equilibrium, and we can get things done now. We can come back. So Lonnie finished Guardians of the Galaxy and then went back and worked on other games, and I'm going to do the same. Okay, there you go. That's a great answer. And I like that Stern has really put a lot of effort and a lot of money backing into the software department. It has grown, as you mentioned. The whole company has grown. Stern is firing on all thrusters, and we don't see an end in sight at this point. It's amazing. If you've ever done a Stern factory tour, and you're more than welcome to do that, they offer that. It's neat to see inside this incredible building. You do have to remember, first and foremost, this is a manufacturing company. Yes, they just happen to make pinball, but it's all about manufacturing. The quality control and the checking of every single part. Like a box of parts come in, they rip it open. They check every single one. If it comes in with 10,000 screws, what they'll do is they'll take 10%. And if 3% aren't working, then it goes back into the batch. It goes back to the vendor, and we get new ones. So that quality control is amazing. And then just watching the wiring and everything that's done there. Everyone is working on, as you mentioned, all cylinders. So you've got the designers making these games behind tinted glass and the closed doors. You've got the software people working on multiple games, but really the primary game, which is the one at hand first, and then you get to the other things. and then it's just the artwork and everything else that goes into it. It's amazing. And I said to Zach, I said, you know, 2018 was a great year for Stern. Yep. 2017 was a great year. We've grown better. And this, I have a feeling, will be even better. We have lots of plans for 2019 and I can't wait for everybody to see it. And here they are. Right now, Dwight Sullivan's going to leak them all on Pinball Profile. Go.
    26:27
    Munsters is the first game. You know, I don't like doing that. I'm just bugging in. This has been interesting. I wasn't just talking about titles. I'm talking about innovations. I mean, George also announced it at the thing. We're going to try and connect games to Wi-Fi. We're going to try and bring the Internet to people's basements through pinball. That is going to be the biggest change, I think, that we're going to see in pinball. It's more than you know. Well, I have an idea, too. More than I know. I mean, I'm not trying to foreshadow anything. We have dreams, and you'll start seeing some of those come true, and we'll just see where it goes. We think it's bigger than we know, and we're just going to start seeing what doors open up because PIMO machines are connected to the Internet. I'm going to say this, and I'm not looking for a reaction from you, but I just think of things like, as Josh has mentioned, the big buck hunter phenomenon. I think of things like Golden Tee, where you can link those kind of things. Well, we now with the LCDs and the software and Wi-Fi probably have some similarities where we can do that in pinball. We just have to get there. And it looks like Stern is going to be doing some amazing things in 2019. We all look forward to it. So just to be clear, in 2019, you know, wheels move slowly, right? We're planning on the whole Wi-Fi thing. It'll probably start happening in 2019. 2020 will be better. 2021 will be even better and so on. That's the goal. Other than last year, right? Yep. Dwight, it's been fantastic to talk to you and I wish I could have more time with you but I know I'm taking you away from work here and my wife is looking at me like I came to Chicago for this?
    28:01
    My wife is a wonderful supporter thank you hun She seems awesome Dwight, thank you very much for doing this It's been a pleasure It was a lot of fun It was great meeting you This has been your Pinball Profile You can find our group on Facebook We're also on Twitter at Pinball Profile Email us pinballprofile at gmail.com and please subscribe on either iTunes, Stitcher or Google Play I'm Jeff Teel
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