Episode 164: Deals! Collecting! Pricing!

Pinball Profile·podcast_episode·19m 41s·analyzed·Nov 20, 2018

Analysis

claude-haiku-4-5-20251001 · $0.034

TL;DR

Canadian collectors discuss pinball pricing, market dynamics, and collecting experiences.

Summary

Jeff Teolis interviews Mike Dimas and Bruce Nightingale, two prolific Canadian pinball collectors, at a Swiss Chalet restaurant in London, Ontario. The trio discusses the collecting market, pricing trends for new releases like the Beatles pinball machine, the challenges of first-time buyers navigating the secondary market, and their personal experiences acquiring machines. They explore Stern's pricing strategy, licensing costs, and the potential for rethemed classic games.

Key Claims

Bruce Nightingale has owned almost 300 pinball machines in his lifetime
high confidence · Bruce directly states 'Yeah, almost 300 now' in response to Jeff asking if he's stopped to think about how many he's had
Mike Dimas has been purchasing machines at approximately one per week recently, with four purchased in the last seven days
high confidence · Mike states 'Yeah, I think four this week' and Jeff notes 'you're good for about one a week at least'
The Beatles pinball license cost approximately one million dollars
medium confidence · Jeff states 'we've heard a million dollars for this license' but qualifies it with 'this isn't public knowledge'
Stern manufactures approximately 50-60 pinball machines per day
medium confidence · Jeff states 'the manufacturer right now I think is at 50 or 60 machines per day' with a hedging qualifier
The turnaround time for a pinball machine from development to completion is about one year
medium confidence · Jeff states 'we know the turnaround time is about a year for a pinball machine'
Chuck Webster sold a Quicksilver pinball machine for $7,500
high confidence · Jeff directly congratulates Chuck Webster on selling Quicksilver for this price, noting the market impact
Bruce Nightingale and Ron Howlett are credited with driving up prices of old Stern electronic games
high confidence · Jeff directly states to Bruce 'a lot of people have said you, Bruce Nightingale, and your partner Ron Howlett are single-handedly responsible for the increase in price in the old stern electronic games'
Beatles pinball is a rethemed Sea Witch with additional features
high confidence · Jeff states 'The Beatles is a rethemed Sea Witch with more bells and whistles' and all three agree
Stern currently manufactures approximately 12 different pinball titles simultaneously to maintain production line speed

Notable Quotes

“Don't think. Just buy it. If you think it's a good deal, buy it. Because guess what? You can always fix anything.”
Bruce Nightingale @ mid-episode — Core advice for first-time pinball buyers; emphasizes action over analysis paralysis in a competitive market
“You don't go into a car dealership and look for a Corvette at such and such price, at a guessing price. You know it's going to be the MSRP.”
Bruce Nightingale @ mid-episode — Critiques Stern's variable pricing strategy for Beatles editions; advocates for fixed MSRP model
“I am worried about this great title, this great design, that I may never see on location or in league because it's perhaps priced out of the range, and that bothers me too a little bit.”
Jeff Teolis @ mid-episode — Expresses concern that high pricing of Beatles may limit accessibility and location visibility despite design quality
“I feel like the stern is trying to push to the edge to see just how far they can push before they get resistance. And it almost like an experiment. Let just see how high a price we can charge for a machine and still get away with it.”
Jeff Teolis @ late-episode — Characterizes Stern's pricing strategy as experimental price discovery rather than cost-justified
“If you have a captive audience, the money's out there. Take advantage of it. If it's not out there, the market will show it and reflect on it.”
Bruce Nightingale @ late-episode — Pragmatic view on manufacturer pricing; suggests market self-correction if prices become untenable
“Definitely the 24 hours to Arkansas for a $20 body of cheetah is one. Yeah, I am nuts.”
Bruce Nightingale @ collecting stories section — Illustrates extreme lengths collectors go to acquire machines; self-aware humor about obsession
“I blew up a trailer coming back with two Rush 2049s on the back of a small trailer. The axle blew up. Oh, no. Dragged the whole trailer on the side of the road. Almost flipped it.”
Mike Dimas — Dramatic anecdote about machine transport accidents; highlights physical risks of collecting

Entities

Mike DimaspersonBruce Nightingaleperson Jeff TeolispersonRon HowlettpersonChuck WebsterpersonTonypersonJoe KamenkowpersonStern Pinballcompany

Signals

?
business_signal: Stern appears to be testing pricing elasticity; Beatles pricing strategy modeled after Supreme Spider-Man home version success with non-pinball collectors
high · Jeff states 'I feel like the stern is trying to push to the edge to see just how far they can push before they get resistance... Let just see how high a price we can charge for a machine and still get away with it' and 'This all stems from... what happened with Supreme'
~
sentiment_shift: Pinball collecting community views game acquisition as investment strategy; buyers prioritize title desirability and condition, expecting price stability or appreciation
high · Bruce explains: 'you don't usually lose money on these games... you try to pick the titles that you want first, and second, you don't want to lose the money. You want to keep it as a nice, stable investment'
?
licensing_signal: Beatles pinball license estimated to cost approximately $1 million; at 2,000 units, this represents $500/unit license cost
medium · Jeff states 'we've heard a million dollars for this license' (qualified as 'not public knowledge') and calculates '2,000 machines, you're paying $500 a machine for the license'
$
market_signal: Stern maintains manufacturing capacity of approximately 50-60 machines per day across ~12 concurrent titles to sustain production line velocity
medium · Jeff estimates 'the manufacturer right now I think is at 50 or 60 machines per day' and 'there's maybe 12' titles in production to support this throughput
$
market_signal: Secondary market for pinball machines remains liquid; collector-grade games maintain or appreciate in value; first-time buyers compete aggressively for good deals, with popular listings selling in minutes

Transcript

groq_whisper · $0.059

0:00

It's time now for another Pinball Profile. I'm your host, Jeff Deol. You can find our group on Facebook. You can also find us on Twitter. And where else are we? Google Play. I forget where else. It's been a while since I've done one of these. Somewhere on the Internet. Just look for it. Wait a minute. You already found it. The reason we're doing this, I am sitting here at a Swiss Chalet restaurant in London, Ontario, with two fellow podcasters and maybe two of the biggest collectors I've ever met in my life. Mike Dimas from the Canadian Pinball Podcast and the London, Ontario Pinball League. Hi, Mike. Yo. And you know this guy, Bruce Nightingale from the Silver Ball Saloon and also from Slamtail Podcast. Hello, Bruce. Hello, sir. How are you today? Welcome to Canada, eh? Eh, take off, eh? So we'll call this episode the Canadian Slam Tilt Pinball Profile Podcast. All right? That's it. The reason I want to talk to you, too, one, because you're friends, but also is because I don't know two people who collectively have purchased more games in their lifetime. Have you ever stopped and thought about how many you've had, Bruce? Yeah, almost 300 now. Almost 300. And there was a time, though, when it was certainly more of a rotation in and out as opposed to nowadays. Oh, yeah, definitely. When I was first doing it, you could just get the cheap, easy games, the $800, $900 games. But now you've got to spend a little more money or you've got to trade a little more and do a little more finagling. But this past week I've gotten two.

1:35

But the main thing about collecting is that you don't usually lose money on these games, which is a nice investment. No, you don't. You usually try to pick the titles that you want first, and second, you don't want to lose the money. You want to keep it as a nice, stable investment or increase eventually. Mike, you're kind of in that same boat as well. You've definitely been accelerating your buying. And if you follow Mike on Facebook, you see pictures of him with usually a machine in the back, a new one. And you're good for about one a week at least. Yeah, I think four this week.

2:08

4:27

Well, for the first-time buyer, it definitely is very confusing to get into the market because they have a million questions and don't even know where to start. and I get a lot of questions like, hey, I'm looking to buy my first pinball machine, and there's a lot of different advice you can give, but it's definitely challenging to get into pinball. If there is a good deal to be had that is posted somewhere it won last long It will last a matter of minutes sometimes Obviously if it priced a little higher then it will be listed a little longer and you might have a better opportunity to get that particular machine. In Canada, people use things like Kijiji. In the States, it's Craigslist. And, of course, eBay is both for international. And then a lot of the forums, too, whether it's Pinside or I know the Aussies use Aussie Arcade. There's a lot of different ways to find used pins for sale. but any advice you'd give for someone buying their first used machine, Bruce? First, well, two pieces of advice. First, don't think. Just buy it. If you think it's a good deal, buy it. Because guess what? You can always fix anything. You know, that was my biggest trepidation for buying my first game, which Mike knows. I bought a, I think it actually used to be your game at one time, a Lethal Weapon 3. That is possible. You've had so many. I've had a couple. So anyway, I was always worried. I'm like, okay, it's playing now, but what if it goes wrong? and advice. You can find anybody local. You can talk to people. Get to know people in your group. Since you want to be in this hobby, you're going to get to know people in this hobby. And we're pretty easygoing. Just throw us a couple bucks. We'll come out and check it out and go from there. You're going to find good deals, so don't pass them up. Don't think. If you overthink, you're done. You're going to lose it. Yeah, I guess with the forums, with the help groups that we see on Facebook, there are certainly a lot of people out there to help. And good chance if you're in a league, you probably know somebody firsthand, so that would help too. You know, we were talking about pricing of machines and how you have to jump on them very quickly. The latest game that came out from Stern is Beatles. And the Beatles pricing, there's a set price for the gold editions. By the way, I love the artwork. I have yet to play the game, but it looks beautiful. I'm excited to play it. I certainly love Old Sea Witch and the Beatles. That's one of my favorite themes that has come out in a long time. So the golds are set. It's the premiums and the diamonds that are negotiable, let's just say. Your thoughts on how they've structured the pricing for the Beatles games. First, I'll start with you, Bruce. It should be a set price. You don't go into a car dealership and look for a Corvette at such and such price, at a guessing price. You know it's going to be the MSRP. I hate to say it. It just makes a lot of sense. You know, say a vendor from vendor A sells it for $22,000, and vendor B sells it for $24,000. You're going to now have animosity towards that guy that's getting $2,000 more for that game. And he could be just because that's his demand, and that's what he's going to sell it for. But now you're going to always think of that guy, oh, he's overpriced. He's this, he's that. Just set the price, be done. If it goes for that price, then if it doesn't, then knock it down. Make it set. I'm guessing that the reason Stern is doing this is to maybe give back a little bit to the distributors. But do you think this game was priced for the pinball player or more for the Beatles fans and collectors who may not be into pinball? I'd say a little bit of both, but more so probably for the Beatles market.

8:53

Now, the thing I see with, you know, look at Total Nuclear Annihilation. They've only made 500 of them so far, not even 500. You see a lot of them on locations still. There's a lot still out there. So I think we will see it on location. Okay, that's good. So, you know, think about it. There's going to be 1,600 or 1,700 golds. The odds are there will be a couple out there in the wild making money. This all stems from, no matter what anyone says, it has to have stemmed from what happened with Supreme. They made these Supreme games. They rethemed the Spider-Man pin game, the home game, and put them out, and they sold instantly, not to pinball players, but to that Supreme collector. and they were probably thinking we can do that with beetles. And I don't know how I feel about this model. I feel like the stern is trying to push to the edge to see just how far they can push before they get resistance And it almost like an experiment Let just see how high a price we can charge for a machine and still get away with it So I wonder if it an experiment for them to a certain extent Hey, I want Stern and every other company to make money. I don't want them to have to lose their shirt. And the smaller companies, if they have a bad title or some problems with manufacturing, that can really handcuff them and hurt the business. You know, Stern has luckily done some amazing titles lately. It's been a banner year for Stern, but they could probably be able to manage a rough title. And they've had some rough titles in the past, and we know about the WrestleMania not doing as well. Again, they can sustain something like that, but they're in the business to make money, and they're in the business to keep manufacturing going. So I get it. I see why there's this price point on there. I just don't know if the growth of pinball will happen from this. And it's not Stern's responsibility to do that, but I just wonder what you think, again, about where this will lead to. Do you think we'll see Stern do more of these type of limited edition titles? Oh, yeah, definitely. It's going to be inevitable because they know they can make the money. If they have a captive audience, the money's out there. Take advantage of it. If it's not out there, the market will show it and reflect on it. Do you think it's always going to be tied into a kapow? Is it going to always be these high-end Kapow titles, or are they going to go off on their own and do the same thing? It can, but most likely with Kapow, he gets the better licenses because he does have his contacts through the slot machines and everything else. So he can get some really good titles. So we'll see. Anything's possible. He got the Beatles, which is a very hard title. You're right about the license with Joe Kamenkow getting the Beatles. And we've heard, and again, this isn't public knowledge, but we've heard a million dollars for this license. So at 2,000 machines, you're paying $500 a machine for the license. And I don't think collectors, whether they're diehard pinball fans or the first-time buyers, will care about paying for that price if it's a title they like. But it's how available will these be? I guess it's interesting because I'm curious how many games Sturm would do of, say, Iron Maiden or Deadpool or some of these other titles or whatever's next coming out. 2,000 seems like a number that would be a little low for what they normally do. Well, what, 500 per machine for the license? 2,000 machines. 2,000 machines, 500 per machine. That doesn't seem like cost prohibitive to get bigger and better licenses.

12:23

It is in some ways, because don't forget, the manufacturer right now I think is at 50 or 60 machines per day. So you have to have, if you want to keep the line moving, you have to have other things backing up ready to go. We know the turnaround time is about a year for a pinball machine, so you either have to bring more volts in, or you have to have something else right behind it that's ready to go to keep that manufacturing line going, which means more stress on the developers and everything else, and the engineers and everything else working. I think one thing about Stern is they've done a very good job of keeping that line moving. If you go to sternpinball.com and you see the current titles, I think, I'm guessing because I'm not in front of my computer right now, but there's maybe 12. So that's 12 that they're manufacturing. So to do the proposed 60 a day, that should be easy to do with that many titles and the demand that's out there for the newer titles and some of these classic titles as well. So the Beatles is a rethemed Sea Witch with more bells and whistles. We like some of these old Stern games. We're all in agreeance about that. As you know, you have Catacomb and Stargazer and what was it? Electronimo, Trident, Stars. Yeah, there you go. And I have a big game in the back. Oh, another one of Bruce's favorites. Which is the next one you want to see them re-theme? You can pick one game. What would it be by Stern Electronics? Stargazer. Yeah, because of the spinners? Three spinners. Yeah, that's a good selection. But I don't really want them to re-theme it, though, do you? Don't you want them to? They're going to. They are going to? They're going to. Because guess what? You have the design there. The design is done. Now you can tweak that design and tweak a little bit of rules. And guess what? Less production time. You can bring it down the line faster. The faster it gets on that line, the faster you can make money. Less development time means more money in the end. And I guess if you attach a license to it, then it just makes it even bigger and better. All right. I bet you we see some more of these classic titles come out and rethemed or whatever the case may be. Because, you know, the design is already done. Maybe you put a little DMD or LCD display on that to make it a little bit better. And Bob's your uncle, and we can see some of these classic games, which are hard to find. And they go so quickly, as is the case with Quicksilver and Chuck Webster. But, I mean, that seems to be the real difficulty in finding these. The guys from Australia, to find some of these titles, it's so hard to do. Very hard. It almost impossible for some of these guys because they only imported so many who knows how many made it through to 30 years being scrapped being parted out everything like that So it is hard for those guys especially Even in Europe now, it's even hard. I'd hate to be a collector in Australia or Europe. I mean, it would be so much more difficult. You'd have to travel so much further. You'd get way less deals. You'd have to fight tooth and nail to get the deals that are out there. We have it made compared to what they have to go through. Okay, I know about some of the deals you guys have done in the past, some of the games you bought. I mean, I think Bruce drove, I don't know, 12 plus hours to basically buy a cabinet that was a rat's nest. What are some of the craziest buys you've done? Bruce, I'll start with you. Well, definitely the 24 hours to Arkansas for a $20 body of cheetah is one.

15:34

Yeah, I am nuts. That's one of them. And then I drove all the way out in the beginning. I drove from Rochester to North Carolina for a Twilight Zone. Oh, my God. Me owning a Twilight Zone. And on the way back, I went through a snowstorm. Seven hours of a snowstorm. And I kept on going through and made it all the way home and drove through like 30 miles per hour. That was more about the journey. What about you as far as you've had some epic journeys, too. That's basically the basis of the Canadian Pinball Podcast. You and Tony talking about your treks to go find crazy games. All right, craziest game, craziest trek. What do you got there, Mike? Well, I have nothing like Bruce's. We're wimps compared to that. I think the furthest we've gone is maybe four and a half hours away to pick up an Avatar in North Bay and drove straight there, drove straight back. But that was a great deal. I remember that one. It was a good deal, and there was, I think, 58 plays on the machine. It was like showroom floor. um so and uh we did have a we did have to go through a snowstorm once we were picking up four machines in the back of tony's truck i believe and on the way back we hit a major snowstorm and we had the machines wrapped and everything but it was still like snow piling on and it was uh it was pretty bad uh it was kind of scary at times actually because it was pretty bad but we made it back safe all the machines got home dry and uh you know everything was safe and sound but Yeah, nothing epic in terms of travel time. Like Bruce and even our friend Ray, I know he's gone on some epic journeys where it's like 20-hour drive straight there and back. And I'm not doing that. I got one more. I blew up a trailer coming back with two Rush 2049s on the back of a small trailer. The axle blew up. Oh, no. Dragged the whole trailer on the side of the road. Almost flipped it. And then so what we had to do? drive two hours to go home, get the bigger trailer, and put the small trailer on the big trailer. Oh, my goodness. Oh, boy. That is pretty good. It's funny. Looking back on it, it's like, yeah, my dad's like, never again. I'm like, yeah, we will. We'll do it again. Well, something you and your dad have done is help the pinball industry immensely with moving games. And, Mike, you've got a tight basement there. It's a tough maneuver to get the games in your place. A little easier at Silver Ball Sloan, but there are a lot of tight places like Mike has. So there's a thing called pinball lifters, and Bruce, do you want to tell how that can help people? You can use your brain and not your back. We convert an ATV motorcycle jack, and we put an adapter on it and wheels. You can put on it also to move your pinball machines easier. I saw that at the Sanctum, too. I've seen them before, but you donated one at the Sanctum, too, and it's a great way to help move machines. And where can people go find those? www.pinballlifter.com. Oh, and when Bruce came over with the machines today, I heard about this pinballlifter.com for like 300 episodes in a row. And when he showed up, I was all excited. I felt like all this pinball lifter technology would be there. Basically, robots would practically move the machines for us. But the pinball lifter that he brought was my back, my legs, my hands, and his back. So that was pinball lifter today. But the hitch receiver I did make myself. The hitch receiver was a good idea, actually, yes. I was impressed with that. The joys of collecting with two guys who collectively have had 500-plus games, Mike Dimas and Bruce Nightingale. We appreciate you coming on today, and time to eat some chicken here at Swiss Chalet. I'm in. I'm in, too. Thank you, sir. All right. Talk to you later. This has been your Pinball Profile. You can find our group on Facebook. We're also on Twitter at Pinball Profile. Email us, pinballprofile, at gmail.com. And please subscribe on either iTunes, Stitcher, or Google Play. I'm Jeff Teolas.