You made it. Hello. Hi. We've been trying to plan this for a while, right? I know. Since like beginning of summer, I know. Since like beginning of summer, I think it's been a minute. I've originally you it's been a minute. I've originally you were like, but I convinced you, right? Yeah. Very convincing. Yeah. Very convincing. Hey everybody, it's Jeff from Dirty Pool Hey everybody, it's Jeff from Dirty Pool Pinball and uh I'm here with another DPP podcast, but it's in person. It's not live this time, right? No, not live. I guess we have dogs here. No, not live. I guess we have dogs here. That's kind of live. They could interact. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Dog chat interaction. Dog chat interaction. Real dogs. So, in my effort to put more Real dogs. So, in my effort to put more and more faces to uh different pinball related things, I'm joined by Ryan Gratzer. Gratzer. Gratzer. I said it correctly. Uh you may not know I said it correctly. Uh you may not know Ryan's face even though he has a podcast uh with his buddy Scott called Mapping Mapping Around. Mapping Around. Mapping Around. Mapping Around. It's funny. That's like a mousing Around It's funny. That's like a mousing Around joke. Is that Is that where it came from? No. No. Anyways, uh you may have used this app. Anyways, uh you may have used this app. In fact, you probably have definitely used it. It's called Pinball Map. Mhm. Mhm. This is Pinball Map. Yep. one of the This is Pinball Map. Yep. one of the people in Pinball Map. That's right. So, you and Scott started That's right. So, you and Scott started this uh in 2008, so 17 years ago. Wow. That's an insanely long time. And Wow. That's an insanely long time. And we talked a little bit about it and you kind of blew my mind. I'm going to give a little hint preview of later on that you have over 100 admins that help you run this. Yeah. Yeah. That's crazy. That's crazy. Yeah. Yeah. So, it's kind of crowd sourced. For So, it's kind of crowd sourced. For people who don't know what Pinball App is, can you give them a quick rundown of kind of like what the platform does? Sure. Yeah. It's uh there's a website Sure. Yeah. It's uh there's a website and there's an app. Uh, and it is a source for finding public machines to play. And it's user updated. So, anyone can add machines, remove machines from locations that are listed on the map, filter to only locations that have those particular machines they're looking for. And, uh, it covers the whole world, which is insanely useful for, say you're interested in buying a game that has just come out and you want to know where it is on location. insanely useful tool if you're interested in just buying a game in general. I mean, it's or if you just have a a game that you remembered as a kid that suddenly like you're like, "Oh man, I wonder if anybody has this." It's not like you can really go knocking down random strangers doors and jump on their pinball collections. No, as nice as that would be. as nice as that would be. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Maybe you could add that as a Yeah. Maybe you could add that as a feature. Yeah. Some people do want to have their Yeah. Some people do want to have their houses listed with a number and say, "Call me." And and how do you address that? Uh we And and how do you address that? Uh we we we have had ones slip past moderation before and uh last a couple years like that and they said it was no problem. But we we feel like there might be some liability risk of saying like here's my $100,000 worth of assets at my house and my home address. I don't Pinball machines are expensive. I don't Pinball machines are expensive. I don't know if you know that. I I I've heard I don't I don't collect, I I I've heard I don't I don't collect, but I've heard Really? You don't have any pinball Really? You don't have any pinball machines? Uh well I do have two but but they're one was a gift uh to my parents. Okay. And then one was before Pinflation so it And then one was before Pinflation so it was a So it was reasonably priced. So it was reasonably priced. A flight 2000 for $450. A flight 2000 for $450. I used to own a flight 2K as well. It's I used to own a flight 2K as well. It's a good game. It's a good game. Yeah. Yeah. All right. So Pinball Map has a lot of locations. Which location has the most pinball machines? Um, please don't say the Pinball Museum in Nevada. Yeah. Uh, it's either that or uh, Yeah. Uh, it's either that or uh, Pastimes. I don't even remember. Okay. Well, pastimes makes sense. That's Okay. Well, pastimes makes sense. That's uh, Rob Burke's uh, location who runs Pinball Expo and has obviously bazillions of machines and like more in storage probably aren't and like more in storage probably aren't even set up. Yeah. So, what got you into pinball that you were like, "Oh, man. I should start a giant platform with a 100 people helping me run it to find pinball machines all over the planet?" Well, I've been into it my whole life cuz my um in this neighborhood actually that we're in right now, some friends of my parents gave them a paragon machine. I think it was like a late wedding gift. Uh Uh was it in good condition? was it in good condition? Great condition. Brand new. Great condition. Brand new. Oh my god. Oh my god. Brand new. It was from, you know, in Brand new. It was from, you know, in basically 197879. I think that machine came out right on the cusp there. Sure. Sure. Uh, so brand new machine and we still Uh, so brand new machine and we still have it. And so I was just born with a machine in my house and I played a lot of Paragon. That's amazing. Not only just a great That's amazing. Not only just a great machine, a great wide body like Hot Dog and Cheetah. What are some Cheetah? Not Cheetah is a wide body, isn't it? Yeah. Future Smide, some some great some Yeah. Future Smide, some some great some great big games. But that's awesome. So you had literally pinball in the home from growing up. Yeah. Yeah. And you know, I wasn't going Yeah. Yeah. And you know, I wasn't going out and playing that much. I mean, it depended when I got a little older, you know, 12, there was like a pizza place with the Caribbean cruise that I played a lot, like that's a cocktail machine. Um, and then there were a couple Um, and then there were a couple machines here and there that I played, but I mostly just played Paragon. And so it was, you know, it was I always loved pinball. And then when I moved to Portland when I was in like 2004 or so, uh, I suddenly realized there was pinball everywhere. Well, definitely in Portland. Portland Well, definitely in Portland. Portland is just like ground zero for pinball. You can't go to a bar. You can't go to like a gas station that doesn't have a pinball machine in Portland. Yeah. Yeah. Which is awesome, by the way. Which is awesome, by the way. Yeah. Tons and tons of machines. And Yeah. Tons and tons of machines. And right away, we were just playing tons of pinball. And then I in at that time there was kind of an exodus from Southern California to Portland. So I had already had a lot of friends that had moved up there and I would just run into other people like, "Oh, I didn't know you moved here. I didn't know you moved here." And like pinball rats leaving a pinball ship like pinball rats leaving a pinball ship to go to a pinball heaven. Yeah. And then one of my friends um was Yeah. And then one of my friends um was uh in a pinball gang up there called Crazy Flipper Fingers. Okay. And Okay. And what kind of trouble does a pinball gang what kind of trouble does a pinball gang get into? Just drinking. Just drinking. Drinking the sauce. Just the juice. Drinking the sauce. Just the juice. That's the trouble. That's the trouble. Um Um that's not trouble. That sounds like that's not trouble. That sounds like solutions. Yeah. Yeah. And uh so we we I would meet Yeah. Yeah. And uh so we we I would meet up with them and we'd play a ton. Um and I had various friend groups that we all just happened to play pinball. Is this where you met Scott? Is this where you met Scott? Yeah. Yeah. So through met through Yeah. Yeah. So through met through mutual friends and I was looking for a new place to live and he liked pinball and I moved into his house. Nice. Nice. Yeah. Yeah. Did he have a pinball machine at the Did he have a pinball machine at the time? Uh we bought one short he bought one Uh we bought one short he bought one shortly after. He bought a World Cup soccer and then I brought my Paragon up so we had them both in the garage. Nice. Nice. Yeah, Yeah, that's a good pairing. that's a good pairing. Yeah. Yeah. Great pairing. We had them Yeah. Yeah. Great pairing. We had them wedged into the basement. Uh and we were playing in the Portland Pinball League at the time. I imagine that's a pretty competitive league with the amount of players that there are up there. Yeah, but back then it was it was very Yeah, but back then it was it was very chill. Very chill. Cuz it was like kind of there was no uh IFBA points at that time. No whopper farms going on. No whopper farms going on. No, it was so it would be, you know, 15 No, it was so it would be, you know, 15 of us uh ranging in age. Uh there were definitely some older folks that had been playing pinball since the 70s that were there. And um shout out to Jean from Ontil, right? shout out to Jean from Ontil, right? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And um we um were tracking machines to play in Portland with a a Google map. You could like do a custom Google map and just make drop markers and write notes for what machines were there. Got it. Got it. But back then you couldn't search custom But back then you couldn't search custom Google maps. So you you couldn't like type in and be like I don't know. It just made it hard to navigate basically. So, Pinball Map almost came out of a not a deficiency of of Google Maps, but you were just like frustrated that Google Maps didn't do more and the API wasn't available or like Yeah, that was it. That was it. We were Yeah, that was it. That was it. We were just like, we want something we could search and um something that's a little easier for anyone to hop in and update so it is more maintained. So, you mentioned like back then and I So, you mentioned like back then and I think like timeline is kind of an interesting thing to talk about. We mentioned this a little bit. I just because you have so much data about games being on location for 17 years you said right? Yeah. Yeah. So like what have you noticed about the So like what have you noticed about the pinball kind of like landscape or marketplace that has been like kind of interesting an observation like do you see that there are more growth of games on location? Like just have there have been any kind of standout things about your observations of that? Um, well, I'd say, you know, when we first started it, there were a lot of uh '90s Williams machines on location. Um, and and of course that those like 2000 Sterns um on location and those have become much more rare. You know, there were like like the most common machine in Portland at the time was Medieval Madness. I mean, that makes a lot of sense. But I mean, that makes a lot of sense. But this was like before the remake. Yeah. Before the remake. So this was OG Yeah. Before the remake. So this was OG actual, you know, smaller display. Yeah. It was almost like annoying that Yeah. It was almost like annoying that like, oh, they have another like Yeah. It was just everywhere. And fantastic Brian Eddie game, but if it's fantastic Brian Eddie game, but if it's the only Brian Eddie game that you keep running into, I could see how that would be fatiguing. Yeah. But nowadays, you're you're kind Yeah. But nowadays, you're you're kind of, you know, you're looking I mean, there's a remake, so it makes it easier to find it. But still, do you think that's because operators do you think that's because operators are less inclined to be able to or want to maintenance a game that's older because the newer ones supposedly need less maintenance? or I mean what do you think is the deciding factor in the kind of shift of modern games taking over? Um yeah, I think it is that you know they could they were able to maintain these machines fairly well for 15 20 years or something like that. But once you extend beyond that, it becomes probably more persistent work to do compared with just plopping down a new machine and an operator's trying to make some of and an operator's trying to make some of that green that moola, right? So they're going to want to bring people in with the latest and greatest the freshest stuff. Yeah, definitely. the freshest stuff. Yeah, definitely. Yeah, I mean there is there is definitely a market for people looking for some of the older machines you can't find as easily on location, but still I think it's more tried and true to put out a brand new machine. So it's kind of putting you on the spot for statistics, but I am curious like do you have an idea of kind of what the total number of games on location maybe 10 or 15 years ago versus now might be? Like has there been a consistent growth? Is it exponential? Is it not growing? You know, there's a lot of caveats to a question like that because we're we're getting places submitted to us and we add new locations, but they're not always a brand new location that just got a machine. Sometimes sometimes it's just a map user happened to go over here and see that there's a machine. It could have been there for 10 years, right, before being added to the map. So, it before being added to the map. So, it it's hard to say really. That's cool that the power of the crowd sourcing though is helping to discover machines that are on location. I know somebody had posted that there was a oh my god I want to say it was Johnny Nemonic but somewhere in the remote edge of Hawaii there was like this one game like just out there and apparently it was like practically unplayable but you know it's on pinball map now you can go check it out. Yeah. Yeah. It's really cool to see uh Yeah. Yeah. It's really cool to see uh locations being added in far-flung areas. I mean we have two or three locations in the in the Maldes. I I was just about to ask what's the like most remote place that has a pinball machine that you can think of. Yeah, someone asked for like having us Yeah, someone asked for like having us have a stat that kind of uh pulls that automatically. So, we do like a radius and see which one is the farthest from you. That's pretty I don't know outright, but yeah, I mean there's not a lot in China listed. At least maybe one location listed in China. I mean, is that because there aren't a I mean, is that because there aren't a lot of people updating the map in China or is that because there's less pinball machines in China or both? Yeah, probably both. Both. But probably Yeah, probably both. Both. But probably definitely has to do with people not updating it there. All we get are probably bot attacks. Japan has that pretty big what is it? Japan has that pretty big what is it? Silver silverball museum I think. I forget what the name of the Japan and we have three administrators from and we have three administrators from Japan that help you know find the places there and keep them updated and stuff like that. That's pretty. So I wanted to touch That's pretty. So I wanted to touch base. So we mentioned earlier that there's like over 100 administrators. So, uh, you kind of like approve people that are trustworthy or have shown that they are able to do this work to update location gains. Yeah. We like them to be kind of like Yeah. We like them to be kind of like neutral characters, like not operators, not owners of locations. Uh, sometimes they eventually turn into operators and owners. Sure. Sure. And we don't boot them out at that And we don't boot them out at that point. What has there been any like What has there been any like nefariousness of like people lying about games on location or something like what is the strangest uh encounter you've had with the moderator? Yeah, there has been. There and it's any shareworthy stories. Not to like any shareworthy stories. Not to like call out anybody's names, but is there something just quirky that you were just like, I didn't think I would have to have this interaction? Yeah, there's been, you know, 17 years Yeah, there's been, you know, 17 years is a long time, so things do happen. And we don't always like to highlight the bad stuff to give people ideas, but there have been that's fair that's fair three or four cases of our three or four cases of our administrators being operators and uh suppressing their being operators and uh suppressing their competitors locations. Ew. Ew. Not adding them or removing them. Not adding them or removing them. Don't do that. Don't do that. Don't do that. Don't do that. And then we always we're always contact And then we always we're always contact them. We're like, did you just do that? And they're like, yeah. It's always like a mopey like, yeah. Uh they were like, "Yeah, you're not an admin anymore. Sorry." If you want to get removed from being an If you want to get removed from being an admin from Pinball Map, uh go try to tank your competitors. Yeah, Yeah, Shane. Shane. Yeah, Shane was one of them. No, just Yeah, Shane was one of them. No, just kidding. Shane runs on it. We like to bag on him Shane runs on it. We like to bag on him just cuz I don't know. That's the league we're in cuz he gets That's the league we're in cuz he gets every new game within seconds before it's available to anybody. It's more of just a frustration out of love, I think, for making fun of Shane. Yeah, definitely. Um All right. So, Yeah, definitely. Um All right. So, you've got all these people. How does someone become an admin? If they were, if say they're a really passionate person, they're in a location that doesn't have a lot of pinball map updates. Is there a way they can contact you? Yeah, I mean, we don't add many admins these days. And that uh it was structured the map was structured differently at the beginning where right now it's this giant unified global map where previously for the first 6 8 years or something like that we had separate regional maps that didn't even communicate with each other or cross over like realms from Game of Thrones. like realms from Game of Thrones. Yeah, basically. Yeah. Yeah, basically. Yeah. Okay. I can't I can't name any of the Okay. I can't I can't name any of the realms, but I but yeah, like you know, cuz so it started as the Portland map and we were just like, we want to have really good data. So, we're not going to add a random So, we're not going to add a random location in the middle of Montana that you pass by on your drive and no one's going to drive by there for 10 years. Sure. Sure. So, we just want this area that we live So, we just want this area that we live in and we know a bunch of people that are going to be updating it. But then other people contacted us and said, "Please do it for LA and the Bay Area and Seattle and stuff." So we started creating distinct regional maps for those areas and we said, "We'll do it as long as you serve as administrator." Update. So you'd mentioned uh this is Update. So you'd mentioned uh this is like the tech portion, right? Uh you mentioned that pinball map was on a different platform at one point, I'm guessing, when these realms existed and then when you integrated kind of the global map, it converted to a different platform. Yeah. Well, Scott's a professional Yeah. Well, Scott's a professional programmer. That helps. That helps. I'm an urban planner. Uh, I'm an urban planner. Uh, that also helps. that also helps. Yeah, I do mapping for work. Uh, so I Yeah, I do mapping for work. Uh, so I guess that kind of is related. Sure. Sure. But, uh, But, uh, can you give a crash course on some of can you give a crash course on some of the technical like how what the platform started on programming wise to what it is. I mean, we don't have to do lines of code here, but yeah, it started as a a Pearl project, yeah, it started as a a Pearl project, Pearl Mason. Uh, and I can't remember all the details about Pearl Mason, but it's some sort of PHP hybrid of Pearl. We got to wait for the dogs. The dogs are freaking out. They are so excited about pinball, they They are so excited about pinball, they want to be involved in it. They like Pearl. Yeah. If you have a They like Pearl. Yeah. If you have a dog, it probably likes programming in Pearl. Yeah. Yeah. What other animals like would choose? What other animals like would choose? So, since they're barking, we might as well make this dumb dumb bit. So, I want you to pick an animal and what programming language they would probably use and then I'll do one. We'll go back and forth. All right. Well, Python would probably All right. Well, Python would probably be a snake. Okay. That's pretty lit literal, right? Okay. That's pretty lit literal, right? Uh, all right. All right. I'll go with like uh pandas probably like maybe Unity cuz uh pandas probably like maybe Unity cuz it's like you don't have to know a whole lot, you know, right? You can be lazy about it, you know? Mhm. Mhm. And then And then let's see what would So I could even segue into what we changed into after Pearl. Okay. Okay. And think about what animal that would And think about what animal that would be. So after Pearl Mason, we switched to Ruby and Ruby on Rails for the the web framework. So, I didn't really know about what Ruby like was as a talking about what scripting language it's run on and what scripting language it's run on and you had mentioned that it was like run on Ruby, a platform that I've never really heard of before. Um, can you talk a little bit about like what Ruby is and like what its like source is? JACKPOT.