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Ep 64: The Secret Sauce

LoserKid Pinball Podcast·podcast_episode·1h 25m·analyzed·Jul 31, 2021
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claude-haiku-4-5-20251001 · $0.037

TL;DR

Loser Kid discusses market dynamics, announces PinQuest partnership, debunks Ritchie-to-JJP rumor, and teases P3's next game.

Summary

Josh and Scott Larson discuss the state of the pinball market, announcing a PinQuest partnership featuring Avengers: Infinity Quest and World Cup Soccer competitions with Loser Kid branded prizes. They explore themes like whether manufacturers should reveal future game pipelines, address rumors (Steve Ritchie to JJP, Cactus Canyon remake status), and touch on the Museum of Pinball's closure in Banning. The episode emphasizes the current supply-demand dynamics keeping game values high and hints at P3's upcoming video game-licensed title.

Key Claims

  • There are approximately 50 potential game titles being spitballed by distributors and interested buyers as possible future releases

    high confidence · Josh confirmed with Zach at Flippin' Out that distributors maintain 'interested lists' for potential upcoming titles, with roughly 50 titles in circulation

  • Stern's strategy of keeping game announcements secret still has value in driving demand despite current market saturation

    medium confidence · Josh and Scott debate whether secrecy matters; Scott argues buzz generation justifies keeping announcements under wraps; Josh counters that recent surprises like Mandalorian and Avengers suggest secrecy works

  • Tom Copera (Cactus Canyon original designer) stated CGC hasn't contacted him for the remake's code, suggesting either new direction or conflict of interest with his Stern employment

    high confidence · Scott mentions Copera's appearance on TPN interview podcast where he confirmed no contact from CGC about code work

  • Pinball games are currently holding secondary market value better than historically, with players reporting resales above original purchase price

    high confidence · Josh references Joe Fox on Final Round reporting selling a recently-purchased Stern game for profit; Scott notes this is unusual for the hobby

  • Medieval Madness and World Cup Soccer are extremely difficult to find on the secondary market, with multiple new players requesting them

    high confidence · Josh states he knows 'multiple people' seeking Medieval Madness who cannot find copies; describes it as unavailable

  • Steve Ritchie leaving Stern for Jersey Jack Pinball is essentially false (rated 2/100 likelihood)

    high confidence · Josh and Scott systematically debunk the Reddit rumor with three reasons: JJP has sufficient designers for current timeline, Ritchie-Lawler history suggests conflict, and JJP's one-game-per-18-months schedule shows no urgency for additional designer

  • P3 is developing a pinball machine based on a video game license with Scott Denisey providing music

    medium confidence · Josh states 'sounds like' and 'starting to hear this float around' indicating rumor status; mentions Cadence of Hyrule context

Notable Quotes

  • “There are 50 potential titles that people are just spitballing...people are becoming shirtlocks and trying to figure out like, what is that next theme that I really want?”

    Josh Roop @ ~05:00-07:00 — Reveals the scale of speculative game pipeline discussion in the community and FOMO-driven collector behavior

  • “The last person that told me that the for sure the next game coming out from Stern was back to the future ended up being Mandalorian. So I've even lost trust with some of my quote unquote inside sources.”

    Josh Roop @ ~31:00 — Demonstrates the unreliability of 'insider' information in pinball and the challenge of accurate prediction even with allegedly informed sources

  • “I'm kind of getting to the point though where I'm hesitant to get rid of my games unless if they're being produced...I know I you can get another one absolutely yeah if I get the itch”

    Josh Roop @ ~38:00 — Illustrates how current production availability affects collector holding strategies and secondary market dynamics

  • “It dumbfounds me that things of this magnitude happen and become public so late in the process that the only thing, only avenue they have is to sell everything off.”

    Josh Roop @ ~47:00 — Criticism of Museum of Pinball's closure handling; raises questions about transparency and early community fundraising opportunities

  • “Unless of JJP is planning producing more games sooner they have enough designers to fill the time frame that they are finishing right now...why would they need another designer?”

    Scott Larson @ ~44:00 — Logical argument debunking Steve Ritchie-to-JJP rumor based on Jersey Jack's consistent release schedule

  • “Well, and that's what's weird too...Joe Fox was saying, he's never owned a Stern game, played it for a couple months, and then sold it for more than what he bought for.”

    Josh Roop @ ~35:00 — Highlights unprecedented secondary market appreciation for modern Stern games, signaling market anomaly

  • “CGC should be taking that like a Beatles white album. Like print off as many of those albums and sell them to whoever wants them because that is gold.”

Entities

Josh RooppersonScott LarsonpersonZach MinneypersonNeil SheltonpersonTom CoperapersonSteve RitchiepersonPat LawlerpersonJoe Foxperson

Signals

  • ?

    business_signal: Museum of Pinball in Banning, California announced closure with full inventory auction; hosts express frustration about lack of early warning/community fundraising opportunity

    high · Josh criticizes lack of grassroots PR campaign and contrasts with Pinball Hall of Fame's proactive approach; location remoteness cited as business viability issue

  • ?

    business_signal: Current pinball market in strong growth phase with rising prices, high demand, and game scarcity; sustainability concerns about demand saturation and market correction

    high · Josh and Scott compare market to 'housing prices in Utah' with 'floodwaters keep rising'; discuss financial/space/relationship saturation points that will eventually limit growth

  • ~

    sentiment_shift: Skepticism toward Cactus Canyon remake appeal among general collectors; interest primarily driven by rarity rather than playfield design quality

    medium · Josh questions playfield layout interest and compares to 'Big Bang Bar' rarity-driven demand; acknowledges minority position but notes unknown original designer reduces appeal vs. Brian Eddy designs on other CGC remakes

  • ?

    competitive_signal: Medieval Madness and other CGC remakes experiencing extreme scarcity with multiple new/returning collectors unable to locate copies

    high · Josh states 'I don't want to get rid of this now' and 'I know multiple people who...are like, Hey, I want a medieval madness and I can't find any of them'; suggests missed revenue opportunity

  • ?

    leak_detection: Cactus Canyon remake in development at Chicago Gaming Company with new code, artwork updates, and phenomenal topper

Transcript

groq_whisper · $0.257

0:00
thanks for tuning into the loser kid pinball podcast we are on episode 64 with me my co-captain as always scott larson and scott it's just me and you riding riding the uh the old yeah you know what we just couldn't get anybody okay you know well here's the thing we seem to be in a lull in that between games. And so you and I were talking about, okay, who can we get on? Who can we talk about? And there wasn't really anybody timing-wise that really felt like this was a good time to talk to them because it seemed... I guess there are a few things. I do want to reach out to some competitive pinball players and talk about as things open up and possibly close back down. We'd like to talk a little more about that. But we also had Colin on just recently. um so honestly me and you haven't done an episode just me and you since we did our deep root to the future episode which was number 57 oh my god that's been a couple months that's been yeah it's okay because the the deep root train is totally like on board and they have sent out like they've released like 10 games and so i'm totally eating my words on that one you know who won't be uh selling deep root games i guess i should never say never but our our friends over at flipping out pinball zach and nicole many i doubt you'll be saying if you want any other game uh the new rumored well is it really rumored cactus canyon like can we just say it can we just say hey yeah i still say not confirmed but they they can neither deny they're not even saying they can neither confirm they're just like yeah okay but still i mean so if you want to get on that list you better give zach a call and honestly uh if you want to go on any future list if you've heard the rumored rush from john borg or the rumored godzilla from keith ellen this is all rumored okay you okay let me get ridiculous we're gonna we're gonna talk about this in because uh i guarantee that you and i have never have haven't talked about any of these lists recently and so i actually was wondering about like these lists and it's like hey like how do they come and i so i i messaged zach and there were a few titles that i was thinking of and i just said hey like i i'm sure you have interested lists like hey like if this title comes up i would be interested which totally makes sense right you can't get a commitment until you get an announcement i mean that's part of the deal right yeah but having you know that and i asked him what you you saw that right like you were on that part where i was like how many threads like how many possible titles are out there. And how many did you say, Josh? I can't remember. You said 50. Good crammy. And so like there are 50 potential titles that people are just spitballing. It's like, okay, so maybe they'll do, well, you know, they're not doing a Cleveland Indians game anymore, so they can scratch that one off. But, you know, it's just, it's just so crazy that people are becoming shirtlocks and trying to figure out like, what is that next theme that I really want? so anyway boy number four oh geez do not go there what a horrible what a horrible thing for pinball well they stopped doing the nudity stuff so you know it could just be about the didn't they go back i i think they did flip-flop i think they they left for like a couple years and then like you know this isn't working for us yeah well it's just totally no longer relevant anyway so and it really isn't i would argue for a good thing but that's okay anyway so yes uh talk to Zach or Nicole at Flippin' Out Pinball. They've been good friends of the show, and we've been able to get lots of good things with them.

  • Led Zeppelin has not generated strong distributor buzz despite being a quality Steve Ritchie design with light show integration

    medium confidence · Josh spoke with local distributor Kyle who reports consistent calls about Jurassic Park and other titles but not Led Zeppelin

    • Josh Roop @ ~40:00 — Suggests Chicago Gaming Company could dramatically increase revenue by expanding Medieval Madness and Cactus Canyon production to meet demand

  • “I think Steve is at the end of his career, like, right? I mean, he's in his seventies. there's no reason for him to radically shake things up unless something radically happens”

    Scott Larson @ ~45:00 — Age and career stage assessment contextualizing why Ritchie unlikely to make major employer changes

    • Kyle
    person
    Scott Deniseyperson
    Tim Arnoldperson
    Loser Kid Pinball Podcastorganization
    PinQuestorganization
    Flippin' Out Pinballorganization
    Museum of Pinball (Banning)organization
    Pinball Hall of Fameorganization
    Chicago Gaming Company (CGC)organization
    Jersey Jack Pinball (JJP)organization
    Stern Pinballorganization
    P3 (Planetary Pinball Productions)organization
    Avengers: Infinity Questgame
    World Cup Soccergame
    Medieval Madnessgame
    Cactus Canyongame

    medium · Scott states 'we haven't seen anything' and emphasizes taking 'with a grain of salt,' but details about code changes and topper design are circulating; Tom Copera's non-contact confirms code decision but not official confirmation of remake

  • $

    market_signal: Distributor demand data shows strong calls for Jurassic Park and other recent releases but limited interest in Led Zeppelin despite positive reviews

    medium · Josh reports conversation with distributor Kyle who states 'haven't had any calls about led zeppelin but the games he consistently has calls on are jurassic park'; suggests Steve Ritchie theme resonance varies by IP

  • $

    market_signal: Unprecedented secondary market appreciation of modern Stern pinball games with players reporting resales above purchase price

    high · Josh cites Joe Fox example on Final Round; Scott acknowledges 'weird time in the hobby' where games hold value; connected to Stern manufacturing strategy to meet demand

  • ?

    personnel_signal: Tom Copera (original Cactus Canyon designer) not contacted by CGC for remake code despite working closely with Stern; raises questions about design direction

    high · Scott reports Copera stated on TPN podcast 'he hasn't heard from them at all'; suggests either new code direction or conflict-of-interest with Stern employment preventing involvement

  • ?

    announcement: P3 (Planetary Pinball Productions) developing video game-licensed pinball machine with Scott Denisey on music composition

    medium · Josh states 'sounds like' and 'starting to hear this float around'; references Cadence of Hyrule as musical reference point; qualification as rumor indicates lack of official confirmation

  • ?

    product_strategy: Jersey Jack Pinball maintaining consistent one-game-per-18-24-month release schedule with sufficient designer capacity through current slate

    high · Scott's systematic debunking of Ritchie departure based on timeline analysis; notes JJP 'seem to be comfortable with releasing a game every one and a half to two years'

  • ?

    rumor_hype: Steve Ritchie leaving Stern Pinball for Jersey Jack Pinball

    low · Reddit post; hosts rate 2/100 likelihood based on JJP's designer sufficiency, Ritchie-Lawler historical tension, and JJP's consistent release schedule showing no need for additional designers

  • ?

    business_signal: Stern's continued strategy of maintaining game announcement secrecy still drives demand and buzz despite current market saturation

    medium · Josh argues surprise announcements like Mandalorian justify secrecy; Scott counters that announcing future slate (like Deep Root) may suppress current sales by creating wait-and-see behavior

    • 3:50
    Also, Josh, why don't you talk about your special announcement there? Oh, hey. So we have teamed up with PinQuest. Hey, Neil. How you doing, Mr. Shelton? Congratulations on the new baby, by the way.
    4:05
    We have teamed up with them. Baby Sheldon? Baby Shelton. Oh, Shelton. Not Baby Sheldon. Okay. No, no. Baby Sheldon. baby Shelton. So, Neil has put Pinquest. He has revamped the whole thing. I know that it used to be like a location thing, but because of COVID and all that jazz, he had to reinvent it, essentially. And the new format is fun. You can do it from home. It's kind of like Selfie League. But the way it works is, we have put up two games that you can high score on. We've picked Avengers Infinity quest because that game pro or premium yeah pro or premium le uh it seems to be a game that a lot of people can get their hands on right yeah there's a reason why they do all these competitions with recent releases because it's the the hot game that people get really quickly and it's actually brilliant from stern's standpoint that if they are if they are helping push this i I have no inside information on that, but that makes a lot of sense because Jurassic Park was – that was a huge seller for Jurassic Park because people could compete on it, and it was the new game. Yes. And then the other game, I'm kind of selfish. This is a Loser Kid game to me because I've owned it for so many years, and I feel like this is the unofficial official game of Loser Kid, and I picked World Cup Soccer. Oh, no. It's World Cup Soccer. So the way this is going to work, you have to take a selfie with the app. Like you can't just take a picture and then download it to the app. It used to be that way, but they're not doing that anymore. So on Avengers, you have to hit 200 million. I felt like that was reasonable. That's doable. Hey, even I can do that, and I'm a hack. So that's about two gems, two to three gems, just depending on how well you do. If you got like a portal locks in there or a multiball with it. And then with World Cup, I went a little more aggressive. I did 500 million. Okay. So I think the high score is around like just a little over a billion on that game, like the base high score. So I figured halfway there, that's probably defeating five or six teams through World Cup.
    6:20
    Anywho, so there's those two games. What do you get? Yeah, what do you get? So play the game, take a selfie. if you are able to complete either challenge, you will get a virtual Loser Kid trophy. It'll have our logo on there and all that jazz. And you will be entered to win a hat. So if you compete on both of them and you're able to beat both scores, you would get two entries. Easy enough. All right. And so this one's for Glenn out there. Check it out. Yes, Glenn and his Milwaukee Bucks. I don't know why he wants to shout them out, but uh it is what it is i guess they haven't won since kareem since lu al cinder was up there so i think that's pretty good i i think he was lu al cinder when he played for the bucks so maybe yeah that was well we shot at the jazz and the jazz doesn't but well i guess they're relevant this last year but they definitely did choke for the playoffs number one team and they fall short well okay but one they were playing against a two-time finals mvp in kawaii leonard which I would argue is a good player.
    7:25
    And they also had like Donovan Mitchell got injured too. So I don't think it was that bad. It is what it is. Definitely. I agree. All right. Cool. I want to talk about one more thing that kind of wrap this back around where we were talking just a couple minutes ago. You were talking about future themes and how there's 50 supposed lists out there of different themes and titles. Well, okay. just not not i guess a interested list it's more of a hey call me if and so i that makes sense right so let's let's segue into this really quick okay because the i feel like the market of pinball has changed dramatically over the last year and a half two years and yes covid does have to do with it but i feel like it was already it's been heading this way for the last five or six we've seen a steady trend up with pinball right there hasn't been really a dip low yeah i'd say it seems to be still the the it's like the housing prices in utah the floodwaters keep rising everything so yes yep hey you have a house you you're fine you you rose with the tide yes i did like yes i did so i'm not i'm not complaining i'm really not complaining about raising prices but do you think it is still beneficial for a pinball company to keep under wraps what theme they are currently producing because at this point it doesn't really matter like as soon as they unveil it it sells out so you mean you mean the le well yeah the le but like the whole point of it is like they don't tell anyone because they're hoping that that will help drive sales to the like because if people knew that let's let's throw out a dream thing that a lot of it gets it a lot let's say harry potter's in the pipeline for stir i i thought you were talking about deaf leopard because you know pour some sugar on me multi-ball you know it uh but let's let's say that's in the pipeline but they really want godzilla godzilla to sell so they just don't reveal harry potter are we still at that point or would it be beneficial start teasing some of these games that they've already got the license they're already starting to develop no i i think they are doing the right thing um okay you want to strike while the iron's hot and people will like for example when led zeppelin came out I got a Led Zeppelin and I actually find it really fun to play. I find it interesting, though, that I talked to my friend who's like he's a distributor near us. Like he's two blocks away from me. He's a super nice guy. And I just chat with him occasionally about his name is Kyle, by the way. And I was like, hey, what games are giving you buzz? Like what are people calling you and asking you about? and he he actually said i actually haven't had any calls about led zeppelin but the games he consistently has calls on are jurassic park and you know and so things there are certain games that have more buzz than others even though i think led zeppelin's a great steve ritchie theme it's perfect and with the light show integration it's certainly a lot of fun um it it will always draw comparisons to Guns N' Roses, which I think are a little unfair because of the resources that they put into Guns N' Roses. The building material has to be significantly higher.
    10:40
    But it's just interesting to get that perspective of what are people interested in. Yeah. And so, yeah, I do think that there's a value for them to keep their themes under wraps because that's what keeps people guessing and talking. And Buzz, you can buy that Buzz. Like how many times have we talked about, well, I deep root announced their eight planned games. Okay, now I'm going to take off my deep root hater hat, but just say like what you do is you immediately look at all 10 games and say, I want that one. Like not every single game that comes out, you're going to go, you know what? I want food truck. It's true. Because if you're, if you're a big who fan or a queen fan or whatever, then you're going to say, no, I'm going to hold out for that one. So I guess to your point, do you think it hurt them that they unveiled all these games and then asked for orders for Raza? Do you think a lot of people are like, well, I'll just hold out because Yukon Yeti sounds good. Cause I like whitewater. So I'm just gonna hold out for that or Goonies. Do you think they would have got more sales if they would just would have held out? Maybe that information. OK, I think it would have been better. Yeah, absolutely. The the real challenge that I see is that there is that element of surprise and there's that buzz. And people are always like, oh, what's that next thing that's coming out? So, yeah, I like the surprise, by the way. The good news is no one's calling me and saying, hey, by the way, here are the next 10 games. um Avengers totally caught me by surprise and I probably shouldn't have been surprised but it totally caught me by surprise and Mandalorian you and I were betting about what the theme was we assumed it was going to be some sort of Marvel Disney license just because they have a good relationship but I'm on record as saying that I thought it was going to be Black Panther and I was on record thinking it was Back to the Future so yeah so well Back to the Future is not really disney though well sorry yeah but that's what we were hearing but that's what we were thinking so we were dead wrong on that so it was a lot of fun when they announced madalorian like oh that's cool yeah we just need to make better friends with people at stern i guess now you know okay i think this is one it makes it more for it it's easier to do an honest podcast when we don't know what's going on yeah so it's um i don't know so anyway that's uh yes so the answer to your question is i think there is still value to generate the buzz and keeping under wraps so well and my other thought process is i think that we're i don't want to say we're in a bubble i hate the idea of a bubble but i think that pinball has definitely went through its ups and downs and i think we're definitely on an up right now i think changing tactic that has worked for many years during downs um is it's not smart to change that tactic that could then be affected if there is a down you know i'm saying yeah and and really what's so what would happen i mean we're talking basic economics right so supply and demand well are games going to magically evaporate no no so it's demand that will really drive it if people just stop wanting to hold on to these games but a lot of these games have made it into homes and it seems like they're in a lot better shape than they would be if they were at your local bar. Yeah. So games seem to be potentially holding their value a lot better than they ever have been. Yes. Well, and that's what's weird too. I know that it's been talked about on, it seems like every other podcast this week, but value of pinball machines, even taking it out of the box, like on final round, Joe Fox was saying,
    14:34
    he's never owned a Stern game, played it for a couple months, and then sold it for more than what he bought for. This is just a really weird time in the hobby where this is happening. And so it's totally because Stern is doing their best to manufacture to keep up with demand. But eventually the demand will taper off. Eventually there will be a saturation of the market. Eventually the game rooms will fill up. I mean, I'm already there. You're already there. Yep. So we have plenty more room. It's just – it's the wallet kind of thing. Okay, and that's fine. But, okay, well, saturation points can be reached in many ways. Yeah. There's a financial saturation point. There's a space saturation point. There's a significant other tolerance of your weird hobby saturation point. So, yeah, but that's what I'm saying is that eventually you reach that, and maybe that next game you're not going to get. Or you're going to say, you know, I'm going to play this a little longer. Yep. I'm kind of getting to the point though where I'm hesitant to get rid of my games unless if they're being produced like I don't mind getting rid of Jurassic Park Pro because I know I you can get another one absolutely yeah if I get the itch I could just say hey Zach put me on the list for the next time they run a Jurassic Park Pro and he'll say it's coming out in three or six months you know what I'm saying but my World Cup Soccer I'm just like I don't want to get rid of this now like even if I had questions about it I don't want to because you cannot find them right now. Okay. Medieval madness. Same thing. Like medieval madness. My kids will never, one, they don't want me to sell it. But two, I know multiple people who, whether they're new to the hobby or they're getting into the hobby are like, Hey, I want a medieval madness and I can't find any of them. And CGC could be rolling in money right now. I do not get it. I do not get I've told – I have mentioned before that CGC should be taking that like a Beatles white album. Like print off as many of those albums and sell them to whoever wants them because that is gold. Like you don't – you're taking zero risk there. You're printing money at this point. Yeah. And so – I don't hear complaints about the quality of CGC like I do some other companies. And so it's just like you guys have a quality built product. Why aren't you selling this license? Because let's be honest. Are you excited for Cactus Canyon?
    17:10
    No. OK. And now I will say I know I'm in the minority because I have talked to multiple people who, you know, they have been that has been the long standing rumor of Cactus Canyon. Right. And there have been so many people who have like, I am so interested in this game. And usually I have to ask, really? Okay, so what about this game makes you interested? Because Cactus Canyon falls into, for me, like the Big Bang Bar or the – where it's more the rarity that is driving the demand for it as opposed to the playfield layout. because in the play field, it's a completely unknown designer. Yeah. And so, like, it's a one-off. And so I don't know, like, what makes that interesting. But what about you? Are you interested in Cactus Canyon? I'm slightly interested in the fact that, like, there's going to be new code. There's definitely going to be new code. I've heard there's new artwork on the thing. Like, they're obviously going to still have the old artwork, but I heard there's new little details added. They have to update it a little bit, yeah. Yeah, they've got to update it. they've done it with attack from Mars. They've done it with medieval madness. They definitely did with monster bash. They just had to change some things because of licensing and stuff like that, you know? Right. And, and what I'm hearing also is the toppers phenomenal.
    18:34
    We, we haven't seen it guys. So we, no, we haven't seen anything and we're taking this all with a grain of salt. Trust me. The last person that told me that the, for sure the next game coming out from Stern was back to the future ended up being Mandalorian. So I've, I've even lost trust with some of my quote unquote inside sources. So I just, I just, I take it. I take everything with a big grain of salt because let's be honest, like no one really knows besides who's working there. Okay. Do you know, do you know who designed Cactus Canyon just off the top of your head? Oh, what is his name? I thought it was Matt something or other. Okay. You got the first name, but there's actually two.
    19:11
    And I don't know who took lead. So, well, here's the thing though. I've played Cactus Canyon. I actually enjoy the game, but here's the thing about Cactus Canyon. It feels very medieval madness, very Attack from Mars to me. Right, a very late 90s game, yeah. It's a family out. It's got the complete the five achievements like a Brian Eddy to then go on to the final wizard mode. Yep. So it's Matt Correale and Tom Copera. Yes, Tom Copera, sorry. So he was on the design of the code. and he was recently actually it's been a couple months but he was on one of the tpn interview podcasts and he talked about the code of cactus canyon because this was all kind of coming to light and the interesting part is he said he uh cgc he can't confirm that they're making cactus canyon because if they are they're more than likely not using him for code because he hasn't heard from them at all but tom capera works with stern he's very he works very close with stern So I don't know if it's because he works for Stern or if they wanted to go a new direction with the rest of the code that they have. Who knows? Yeah, so it's because it's such an unknown for me and because I'm thinking – like I love my CGC games. And I will also tell you that the two collectors, my two friends who have high-end collections here, they're both getting Cactus Canyon. Yeah. So I feel less of a drive to get the Cactus Canyon because they have like all four of the remakes.
    20:54
    So like I – well, they will. They'll have all four of them. So I feel less – it's the same reason why I don't have a Lord of the Rings because I would love Lord of the Rings, and I would have one by now if I don't have the option to go play it at their house. Yeah. well and the reason I might get a Cactus Canyon is because I actually don't I used to have Monster Bash and Attack from Mars and then I did the whole well I can sell my two games and get three or four out of them that fine it reasonable and so I was like well I It reasonable I kind of back in that mood of I want a CGC I probably wouldn't go the LE like I have the last two games.
    21:35
    Like the SE? I don't know. I'd get an LE. I totally wouldn't. I would probably just go with the premium. I don't know. You have to see it to see what's all in it. I'm one of those people. It's definitely going to sell regardless like if you buy it oh i i think it will and i think that their track record has said they're going to do a good job all right so new uh new tips so um anyway tips well okay so okay uh okay we're going to spend about two seconds on this because that's about all it requires is so uh so josh i'm going to give a statement to you and you tell me on a scale of one to a hundred, how believable you think it is. Okay. Steve Ritchie immediately leaving Stern and going to JJP that was shared on Reddit, which is a huge pinball forum. And so it was shared Monday. And if this immediately was happening, it was immediately having happening. And so, okay. On a scale of one to a hundred, a hundred being sure thing, one being is no chance. what do you what do you think i don't you don't have to ask no chance and and the reason being i mean we've been kind of talked about this on the side a little bit uh and the only reason i even caught wind of it is because someone messaged you and like hey what do you think of this and so yeah it's kind of funny but yeah and someone who likes to be a troll to us like let's be honest this guy he's nice we love him but there's sometimes he just throws information our way to make us think, is this really happening? Yeah. It questions whether or not I took the red pill or the blue pill. Yes, yes. I totally get it. And so the chance of that actually happening are, okay, I'm going to rate it as two out of 100. Just because, is it completely possible?
    23:31
    Yeah. But do I think it's likely? No, not yet. Can we give the top three reasons we decide this is not going to happen at all? Okay. so i'll start with one one okay okay if this were a real thing it would not be shared on reddit yes okay reddit is not the major pinball forum it's just um the only reason why it goes to reddit is if other forums are unavailable so i'll just leave it at that go ahead so so we we'd share this on the side yeah i'll just i'll hurry and toss okay so first off unless of jjp is planning producing more games sooner they have enough designers to fill the time frame that they are finishing right now yeah so why would they need another designer unless they plan on so that's logic a right yeah and rumor has it that steve and pat aren't bffs yeah that's reason number two Number like huge, like Pat runs, Pat runs JJP. So we'll so unless Steve is willing to work under Pat's control, which I don't think he is. So, yeah, no. Well, and if you listen to the Silver Ball Chronicles, hey, Ron, hey, David, they talked about this in the Lawler episode when it was at Williams. It was very much Team Lawler versus Team Richie. Like, and so I highly doubt that maybe, well, it's been 20 years, but still. But still, like there's, what's the reason? Like it would have to be a spectacular meltdown at Stern for Steve Ritchie to go. I think that it would, I mean, Steve is at the end of his career, like, right? I mean, he's in his seventies. there's no reason for him to radically shake things up unless something radically happens yeah and and like you i just don't see him going to work under lawler i that's just my personal opinion and third a third one of the two designers so if the schedule's not changing on them speeding up and making more games which right now that's what it looks like i mean we're almost a year out from when guns and roses was revealed uh it sounds like they're saying pretty much on the same time window they have in the past. Anywho,
    25:54
    one of your two designers would have to quit. And Eric's not going anywhere. Eric is the future of JJP. He's solid, he's motivated, and he will be doing that. And so, I don't think Pat's thinking of leaving anytime soon. And the timeline is theirs. They seem to be comfortable with releasing a game every one and a half to two years. Yeah. So I think that is what it is. So, no, Steve's not leaving. So there's the four minutes. Whoever whoever was being whoever was the troll who was doing that. Yeah. Yeah. No chance. No chance. Hey, you got you got your four minutes of fame. Oh, you got your four minutes of pinball fame. Oh, yeah. Yeah. That's like that's like good for a slurpy refill or something. Yeah. OK, so this one this one hurts my heart. And I've kind of gone off a little bit on this because I don't have any inside information at all in this. But it was announced that the Museum of Pinball in Banning is closing and just everything's being auctioned off.
    27:05
    Now, I – okay, Josh, do you want me to give you my take first or do you want to give your take first? honest okay honestly like it sucks that our location's closing um i've never been to the banning location i've never been right it's not okay one it's totally not ideal yeah it is not a great place and it would it's kind of in the middle of nowhere they would have special events a few times a year and it would cost a lot like i actually ran into one of the guys at the pinball hall of fame who was involved in the, in the Banning museum. And he was playing iron maiden and I just randomly started talking to him and that's how I found out who he was. And, you know, so this is even before we got into podcasting, I think. Um, but it's, you know, it's, it's expensive to, to store and to turn on the lights and even just the electricity and the air conditioning and all that stuff to run anything. So immediately I was questioning, well, how, like, like how viable is this when the location's not great and it's not like you're making a lot of money from whatever you're doing okay yeah so i totally understand when a business goes under however what is just it dumbfounds me that things of this magnitude happen and become public so late in the process that the only thing, only avenue they have is to sell everything off. Yeah. Like that, that's now I know that they don't owe us anything and this may be the best thing for them. But if the goal was to find a way of saving everything in whole or in part, then shouldn't shouldn't there be a little bit more of a a grassroots or a pr campaign to say hey this is what's going on this is what we're trying to do who's with us who can help us with this because there are some mega collectors out there there are there is there are some big whales out there who have money who are who want to keep pinball stuff alive so it frustrates me that it's It's too far gone for anything like that to happen, and it's not even a resurrection progress. It's more of a process. It's just a, hey, it's a fire sale.
    29:35
    I don't know. The more that I've thought about this, it sucks that it's happening, but it could be one of those things because a lot of people compare it to the Pinball Hall of Fame where they ask for money. But the thing is, is Tim Arnold has had the idea for the upgrade of his building for years now. It's not new. And it's also in Vegas. It is in a place where people come. You and I have been to the Pinball Hall of Fame. You and I have not been to the Museum of Pinball. There's a reason, and it's the city.
    30:06
    Well, and I think the other thing is, too, is some people are living from month to month. And so, yeah, if you ask for that help and the well helps out and you get another six months or a year, you don't know what the future holds. At least with like Pinball Hall of Fame, Tim had had it figured out like how they were going to build it. And like they fell short, but he still had a game plan of what they were going to do to keep it going. And so and even with COVID, they've really now that it's kind of lightened up and everything, they're still making things work. I just I'm wondering if it's one of those situations where it's like I just don't know there's there's so many underlaying details that we really don't know and so I just I go well it sucks but yeah I'm sure there's a lot more to it yeah it just uh but it does just kind of frustrate me that it's a hey we're closing and peace out yeah and I get that i get that but um i just i don't know i wish the best for him i really do yeah like it's but it's it's like when you find out someone's getting divorced and you're like is there was there any way like i know that there are some times when there's no relationship that can be salvation i know it's a bad comparison but it just feels like nobody wins in these scenarios i guess that's what i'm trying banning's been cheating on us this whole time and it just finally came out Okay, yeah, exactly. Okay, so the comparison didn't work. No, it's fine, dude. No, I get what you're saying, but it is what it is. Yeah.
    31:35
    Well, let's move on to something that I'm excited about. I know we can't really give a ton of time to this because it's just a rumor. I'm starting to hear this float around a little bit more and more, but it sounds like P3's next title is based off of a video game. It's a license of a video game. and Scott Denisey will be doing the music for it.
    31:58
    I don't know if you've ever played Cadence of Hyrule, Scott. It's on Switch. I think it's maybe 15 bucks. It might be a little bit more. But it's really cool because it's hard to sometimes visualize like a Super Mario song.
    32:14
    What's it called? Cadence of Hyrule. Okay. It's a music video game? kind of so the way it works is if you've ever played the traditional legend of zelda where it's top down where you go from screen to screen it's like that but there's a there is a rhythm and a beat playing during the game and if you move to the beat it gives you bonuses for when you are killing bad guys and stuff like that oh it's like a dance party kind of but it's it's very zelda based like it's still it's the zelda game that you know with a little twist have you played this game on switch have i yeah oh yeah love it bought it i've beat it so many times and it's fantastic don't say that too many times if you're looking for a fun game on the switch i highly recommend it but okay the cool part of it The cool part about it is – It's interesting because it is – that's a Nintendo-ish title. Yes. So that is – that's very interesting, right? It's officially licensed from Nintendo. Right, but that's interesting just because of some of the other dream things, right? Like I think people would want a Super Mario Bros. LE. Yep. So – But the thing I'm saying is like a lot of people have a hard time picturing because Scott Denise's music, if you've listened to TNA, which we all have – It's very electronic. Yeah, but it is not Legend of Zelda. Yes. Listen to the Cadence of Hyrule soundtrack on YouTube. It's like two hours long, but just listen to the first five minutes or something. It'll give you an idea of how something could be still like a Scott Denise-y song, but still traditional Zelda or Mario or whatever it may be. And maybe they're not going to Nintendo. Maybe they're doing a different video game. When I hear video game, the very first games I think of are Zelda and Mario.
    34:11
    Let's be honest, the flagships of any other system... Not the same. They're not the same. Halo, in my opinion, might come close, just because it's been around for so long. Yeah, but no one's... Okay, so I could get burned on this because I'm not a video game player. And last time I said that Street Fighter 2 is dead, then someone corrected me and said, no, it's very much alive.
    34:38
    But you just don't see the marketing iconic images with Halo. Like the people who play Halo were like, oh, well, that's a gun from Halo or the truck, like the Cybertruck or whatever. There were vehicles that were like, that looks like a Halo vehicle. However, the average person has no clue. But I would say that the average person knows who Link is or Mario because they played it as kids. I played that 40 years ago, right? Or 30 years ago or whenever it was.
    35:15
    Well, and we went over this. It's been six months. But we went over the 25 top grossing media of all time. Like Pokemon. Yeah. Pokemon was number one. You shocked me with Pokemon. I would not have guessed that. Yeah. Pokemon and Mario was on there. Legend of Zelda is like really close. Call of Duty is on there. Yeah. I mean, there's some of those were some of that market didn't overlap with what a pinball market would be. Yeah. So, like, I understand why Pokemon hasn't been made because it is very much an Asian centric market. um and it's not like yes there are pokemon players here too but it's it's not the same penetrance i guess so what i'm saying is it's like there's when you think of top brand franchises when it comes to media and video games it's it's mostly nintendo franchises okay well that in my opinion when it comes to money okay so you educate excuse me so you so you educated me on the cadence of hyrule but it's going to be a scott denisi game and it's for p3 the music will definitely be scott denisi okay so what does that mean for p3 i think it's honestly right now the secret sauce to making pinball is a theme it's as as shallow as it is it's it really all it is is the secret sauce is there's a reason well okay but is that surprising though. Like when you're, when you are connecting with something, you are connecting with a story. You're connecting with the lore. You're connecting with a character. You're connecting with a band. You're connecting with something. And so you are, there's a reason why there's a licensing fee. And because by paying a licensing fee, you are buying that connection, that fan base. Yeah. And so it totally makes sense why some licenses will, will command more than others yep because it just depends on how much like i okay seriously you too pinball machine like why i okay the fan base for you too is significantly greater than like a journey pinball machine or something and by the way i'm not taking away from journey i've seen them they're great but the amount of people worldwide that have seen you too but they're they probably command a hefty price for their license yeah so let's take i don't know i'm trying to think i just i think like i said the secret sauce is themed so i think i think this is a really brilliant move for p3 especially where other companies are starting to no longer use their product like spooky has now moved back to ben hex new circuit board which is right and so there's a question about the viability of it yeah i get it and i don't know if it's because of the the software or the hardware that came with the game but like if spooky is no longer the map for p3 i assume american pinball still gonna use it but i'm not for sure like i have no idea yeah i can't remember if i could swore someone said they weren't going to but but if that's if that's the case like p3 is kind of lived off like selling their circuit boards right so now now you'd be back to your own licenses and don't get me wrong like i enjoy heist and lexi light speed in those games but they really just do need a theme i think that's really what would just put them on the map at this point yeah so if you don't think it works i i was wrong with halloween i really didn't think halloween's gonna do anything you know what i i was shocked and so i'm good for them right and i know there some people who were really turned off by the theme. So that's certainly something to consider. Well, okay, so I learned a new thing. That actually may help move because really kids, well, one of the reasons why I think Deadpool is so successful and really Avengers in some way, because it feels closer to what a video game feels like. And that connects with younger audiences. Yep. so i got thinking about today and i know that avengers kind of does it but what if a pinball company took the approach like breath of the wild if you've never played breath of the wild you can instantly get to the final boss from the very beginning of the game but it is ridiculously hard to do and the boss is ridiculously hard to beat what if you could approach you could play the wizard mode from the very beginning which i guess you technically can when they've got that you you hold the flippers together yeah but like in actual gameplay you could go directly for the final wizard mode from the very first flip but it was it would be ridiculously hard to complete but by completing other modes and other achievements in the game makes it easier for the final mode to be finished yeah it's interesting right i mean there's a whole point on on deadpool there's a you know the the reason why you want a few things like you always want wolverine because your damage is so much higher yeah and you know if you want yeah you know if you want uh more points then you certainly want um colossus so there you know there are things and if you want a disco ball then you want dazzler um so just little things like that um make it so maybe That's kind of interesting. But isn't that also like what the average mode or the insane mode on Avengers? You get to choose, right? Like I choose the basic version. And Colin was here, and he was flipping around. He's like, yeah, I'll go for insane version. I'm like, okay, good luck. So the concept I'm presenting, let's take Avengers, for example, is you would automatically be able to play Thanos at the very beginning. and this concept still is kind of that way because Keith has made it if you collect gems it makes it easier to complete Thanos once you get to him but it would be insanely hard to beat Thanos but you could play him for the very first flip yeah don't you think that would be like chopping wood though if it's like hit the orbit 60 times and it doesn't have to be like that but it could definitely be like you could take final battle yeah the mini games though they typically aren't the final final mode right it's like the second to final mode so you know it's like the escape from nublar is not when dinosaurs ruled the earth correct and battle thanos is the final mode if i remember correctly yeah yeah i've gotten there once or twice and i can't i don't think there's anything after you beat thanos no there is uh you get to play as thor and you get to wear the uh the infinity uh the infinity gauntlet and you get to start destroying people it's totally totally twisted i don't remember that yeah maybe that was just in my dream modes so maybe so i'm excited i'm excited i i definitely want to see a video game theme that isn't pac-man that isn't space invaders that isn't spy hunter don't get me wrong those are all fantastic games but i want one that i know there's a story behind and i can dig deep into the video game from or into the pinball machine via the video game okay You know that that actually it a good point And I love what they been doing And you know Dwight started it with Are you a god Right Or that was the mode Right And so that's it's fun to be able to say, hey, let's let's do different things. And I love the challenge of things. So those are great. All right. Let's move on to the next the item. And we'll kind of not tangent this one. We keep hearing, you know, Stern's coming out with another. game it's it's probably gonna be here fall um is it borg or is it elwynn okay borg we've heard it's a possible music theme as in maybe rush that's the rumor and then or is it elwynn's godzilla which is the other rumor yeah and really we don't have any confirmation on these things um the godzilla thing the reason why that's been tapped is because they we one we know they have the license right yeah because spooky was a little upset about the whole godzilla thing and they went off about it on the podcast okay i i would say granted i would say i understand no yeah i'm not saying they're not justified and i'm just saying hey that's what happened yeah and so we know that it's kicking around so they're you know we're thinking that you know and so okay so let's go over the designers that uh that stern has so we have uh borg we have richie we have elwyn and possibly um gomez if he wants to jump into the ring right you forgot eddie too and eddie okay so they have five all right but i think gomez has strictly said even on recent podcasts he's just not designing anymore well okay we all know why he designed deadpool and that was because he jumped to rescue that. And I would say he did an amazing job. I agree. So, okay, so Eddie. Eddie's game just got released. So he's not available.
    44:43
    So Steve Ritchie, well, his game was before that. Yeah, he's not coming out with another one. So he's not coming out. So we're just doing the math. Yeah. So you're going to have either Elwynn or Borg. And so, okay, so now Borg had Turtles and Elwynn had Avengers. Yeah. So remind me the timeline. Wasn't Avengers first?
    45:08
    No. Well, Borg had Ninja Turtles. Oh, that's right. It was Turtles and then it was Avengers. Yes. And Ninja Turtles came out right at the beginning of the pandemic. So it was like April. Oh, yeah, yeah. May 2020. Avengers was in the fall. Okay. All right. That's why I have a hard time believing that Elwynn's is next. like mathematically i just feel like owens is coming out in the winter that winter winter timeline like the led zeppelins and the stranger things sure but couldn't it also just be when it's done it's done possibly and granted there could be license hang-ups i mean i assume if we if they are doing godzilla it'd be a lot easier to work with the licensor than maybe say rush don't know i don't know why why would rush be hard um it could be like the whole beatles thing where you you have to get it you've got four estates that you have to to pretty much sign off on it well they okay so there's three people there's three people in rush and one of them's yeah uh so i i don't okay i i i do not think it is the level of beatles complexity uh to deal with rush i get that but what i'm saying is there's still some complexity there where and and like the beatles they only met like once a year yeah and so like the licensing they had to have it all ready for like that one day or whatever it was yeah where i doubt it's like that with rush but still yeah they're not really doing much even though the dude's passed away yeah like his family still has the rights of what happens okay that's fair so yeah i'm just kind of curious to see what so i know it is possible and i would say that if it ends up being a music pin i i think borg's actually a good one to to do a music pin i mean richie's done a few um well has borg done a music pin yes he did metallica okay um okay duh sorry okay all right i'm an idiot first of all that comes to my mind i i'd have to look at the i am scott and this is my first day in pinball um yeah uh okay so yes he's he's done a great one and yes but it's okay it's interesting though because if you look at uh okay design teams too so um borg is a little bit of the wild card because um you have elwynn who basically does his own rules and rick like that's the team you have Richie and Tim Sexton.
    47:35
    And then you have, okay, so Borg. Borg is the one who kind of goes through a few. There's Dwight, there's Lonnie, and there's the other guy who hasn't done anything in a long time.
    47:51
    So is Lyman done? Is Lyman done coding or does Lyman just come out for big product, big projects, and if there's a big project coming up maybe that's an interesting question if there's a big game coming up that warrants the elwyn treatment treat uh sorry the try that again if there's a big game that warrants a lyman code deep dive like what is it and the last basic game that he has done has been walking dead right yep and then he did batman 66 which we know was a crazy deep rule set yep and he changed that game from being a dog to a very coveted game did the same thing with walking dead i'll point out and he's done no byra so is there another big game that's coming out for run well and here's the other thing i really didn't put much thought into this until now um dwight was on code for turtles but now he's on mandalorian so that leaves john borg free well not free but obviously the they usually work in teams like they usually don't really switch up who they're using what was lonnie's last name stranger things was the last thing that lonnie ropp worked on and that's been and that was 2019. That was almost two years. Okay, so legitimately he could be available for that. Well, it looks like Lonnie typically works with John Borg, too. Yeah, so that could be good. Oh, hey, Aerosmith, that's another John Borg game, so that's another music pin. Oh, geez, man. Okay, so yeah, all right. Yeah, it's... Oh, guess what? I might be a little tired. I was up all night. Kiss was Lonnie's rock and John Borg. All right. I was legitimately up all night, so I apologize. No, you're fine, Captain. Yeah. Okay, so... I think that it sounds like there's a good chance. And I'm also just wondering what Lonnie's... So what... What Lyman's next game really would be then. Yeah. Because he's got to fit into the pipeline somehow. He can't be resurrecting old Coda and everything. But you look at the timeline, though, too, and it looks like Lyman's window is getting longer and longer. Like, from Walking Dead to Batman was like two years, and from Batman to Elvira was three years. I'm not saying it's going to be four years until his next game, but we're looking two to three years. Which, I mean, it still puts us—Elvira came out, was it last? Yeah, it was last Halloween, last October. So, who knows? Yeah. Okay. I have a hard time believing that L1's game – and I could be wrong because last time we had L1 on, he said that game four was already in the bag and he was already – was he working on the Whitewood for five? Like he was – Well, I think he's a machine. I – Yeah. Okay. Let's – okay. I'll put on my L1 fanboy hat. I mean he's a savant at designing. I mean he's really just unbelievable. He hasn't had a dog yet. So does he just have that many rabbits in the hat? um probably actually probably yeah this is a man that knows his well and it's crazy like um we did the steve richie episode and i'm trying to think i can't remember what it was oh we talked about the uh the jets versus the pop bumpers or the thumper bumpers or whatever yeah and we were trying to talk about the history of that like richie really couldn't remember and we really weren't gonna straight answer l1 had messaged me within 24 hours that we had released that and gave me the exact information on it i was like oh dang dude like like with like references and everything like it was crazy what the uh what was i i guess i i guess you didn't share it with me huh weird well we talked about because well i don't yeah i didn't it was that's okay that's okay i mean you're ellen's bff it's it's all good i'm just the millhouse to your uh to your bart it's fine yeah it just was talking about how um because we were talking about where did the named jets yeah jet bumpers yeah uh or versus the jet bumper uh or jet bumper versus what were the pop bumpers and so he he had sent over reno uh it's a pinball machine from forever ago wow that that is a legendary pinball machine that literally three people have that well yeah so wow interesting it was released in 1957 but that's what's crazy to me is like it's like keith knows this like right off the top of his head and it was like boom here you go yeah so i i think that's why what makes him such a great designer is because he could take concepts from past games and make new concepts or twists on them right okay and that's what we want right Okay, so speaking of new twists, and we have talked about this, if the suspected theme is going to be Godzilla, is it too close to a dinosaur game?
    53:12
    It makes me nervous. Yeah? It really does. Does he have a brontosaurus head that moves on the right side?
    53:20
    Well, and it depends because I know that they said that they got the new Godzilla theme and the old Toho.
    53:28
    I don't know how well Toho would sell. looking at Ultraman and it's selling out in a day at $750, it might not be an issue. It may be. And the funny thing is I actually know someone who, like, he got it, and I started talking to him about it. I was like, wow, that's really crazy. So, you know, that's just so funny that, you know, it's Tim Purcell. He has a Guns N' Roses collector's edition, and he told me he got Ultraman. I was like, really? like okay like i have never heard of this game or this theme excuse me so huh that's that's crazy so yeah who knows maybe yeah you're right maybe the the toho version is the gateway to japan or whatever well and i guess they're two entirely different themes let's think about that way like are you gonna go goofy old school more like dinosaurs wrestling versus the new stuff that's like more realistic as realistic as you can be with monsters destroying cities and attacking each other and and go for that realism because jurassic park feels realistic to me like they go for that realism like you could believe that scientists had actually done this yeah versus yeah toho where there's a godzilla dropping an elbow on on one of the bad guys you OK, and do you really think that that would fly with today's audience, like the stop motion photography, like the Jason and the Argonauts? Maybe Power Rangers is still huge. Power Rangers. Are you serious? It's still it's still. Yeah. Power Rangers is huge. And it's kind of the same concept. You think about it? Didn't one of the Rangers like get arrested for like killing someone? I don't know. I don't I don't keep up on that, dude. I know. OK, but this this was like one of the actors from like 30 years ago. got arrested for something bad.
    55:26
    I don't know. Yeah, I don't know. I still am one of those that don't understand monster movies because it feels like I've seen them.
    55:39
    I don't know. But I am first to admit that when Rick and Morty was announced, I was just like, what the world? I hadn't even heard of Rick and Morty aside from Ryan C saying he would love it. Yeah.
    55:55
    I think, back to the original question, I think it all depends the toys that you integrate and how you use them. If you have Godzilla eating the ball, then yes, it's too close to Jurassic Park. And Keith L1 knows that. He's not going to be like, well, let's just slap another Godzilla on there and have him eat the ball. I did that two games ago, you know? Okay, by the way, I'd love that. I think that's awesome.
    56:19
    It's a total reskin. it's like a total reskin of jurassic park like no it's totally godzilla it's that would be hilarious that's what stern should do just to mess with us right troll us entirely yeah they should just send a picture like new artwork just laid over the top of jurassic park yeah and like the raptor tower could be mothra's lair or something like that yeah the the hydra uh scoop on or the the hydra right ramp or something. Yeah. Did you see this? I totally must have missed this, but Godzilla came out in 2019. Did you see that? I own it. It's good. Okay. King of Monsters? Okay. I felt like... Please tell me it was like an over-the-top where he had a wrestling match with one of the... It wasn't. It was good. it was um so the first godzilla is good i actually enjoyed the king kong movie that came out uh skull island a lot better um but then like the the third one that was like godzilla may was godzilla king of monsters yeah i thought it was a little much and then now they've come out with godzilla versus king kong i haven't seen it yet i've heard mixed reviews yeah wow okay that's crazy you should we'll have a movie night you'll just come up bring the kids over we'll watch the first godzilla it's decent my son loved it so okay all right it's just like i still remember the the like my friend i was totally jealous of this which just shows how low the bar was for my childhood that he had like one of those godzilla toys and i'm not kidding like the coolest it was about 18 inches to two feet tall it was a big toy but the coolest thing about it is like you'd hit a button on his arm and it would shoot his hand off and like hit something yeah it was like that was a cool toy back when i grew up which is probably why like stickball was still popular so you what shocked me about kong skull island actually was the cast it has an actually really good cast um i don't know where they got the money for if these guys just took a little bit less money Tom Hilson, the guy that plays Loki Brie Larson, the lady that plays Captain Marvel Samuel L. Jackson, do I even have to say what he's played in John Goodman, John C. Reilly from Step Brothers and all those other movies there was just a really good cast to this movie maybe that's why it was better I don't know, it was good you've got classic Samuel L. Jackson just going off yeah Yeah, it's just so weird. Okay, I am going to show you a picture. I'm going to send you a picture of this toy, and you will see how stupid it is. Okay, are you at your computer? Yes. Okay, so look up Godzilla Shogun Toho Warriors Mattel 1977. Okay, let's check this out. travel back to the groovies 1970s with the shogun warriors godzilla made to replicate the original design the shogun's warrior godzilla features flicking tongue action rolling wheels under his feet yeah firing right fist stands okay so i just sent you a link seriously look at look how stupid this toy was and that was a cool toy back in the day you can shoot off both of godzilla's fists the side profile looks terrible the head portion to the body is just not right this this thing's weird like yeah i know it looks like a yeah looks like a lizard man thing so anyway see okay the only reason why i bring up that terrible toy is because i don't know if the old version the old campy version would sell you know what you slap good art on it you may you get a really good artist behind it which by the way okay if if this is elwyn then we do know that the artist with him would be zombie yeti and that's because it was announced on yeah it was it was talked about before you know it was i want to say it was on the back box pinball podcast and this was like a year ago or more okay i i'm sure that zombie yeti can do an awesome job with godzilla um because he's done well okay what hasn't he done an awesome job with um but yeah that's uh it i don't it's one of those where this is the theme that it it doesn't do anything for me but i will buy any keith game so uh i okay here we go so we know that cgc is going to come out with cactus canyon sorry the rumored cactus canyon soon or it's possibly elwin with godzilla which one do you choose see i would choose godzilla just because of elwin though like i and just because every single game that i played of his i think is um it's such a different approach and it feels different than any other game i've played and and it's just not keith elwynn i mean rick nangle and his team that he gets behind him when he's doing software i know that he's kind of following what keith tells him to do but let's be honest like his code is very very solid i've never been playing a keith l1 game and all of a sudden the game just stops and reboots or i hit something and it freezes up the game and i've had that issue with other games like other design or other software programmers i don't want to single anyone out and that's why that's a good idea yeah but yeah absolutely it's uh it always feels very it's a ready game there's a reason why people win a an l1 game come it comes out they're like hey let's put in the tournament and even keith's like No, dude, this is not tournament ready, but his level of tournament ready versus other people's, I think is different. But that's the thing though. Like with Avengers, I got it pretty much, it was a couple of months after it came out.
    62:37
    But from the day I started playing it, even though the code wasn't complete, it wasn't 1.0 and all the modes were in there. I still felt like I could explore the game. Yeah. To a good point of it. Like I never hit the, the end of the road and the game frees up and start over. And I've had that with other games. Yeah. And so that's why I'm like the team that runs with Keith. That one is just it's fire. Like they are. That's the thing is like I thought about it. And I'm like, do I really still want Mando with when I know Keith? I once game's going to come out here soon. I think Mandalorian you can always you can always sell on if you don't like it. But I think the theme is really well integrated. I guess I'll put it that way. So I went to Ice Cream Parlor today, and they had a Rothrills game. They had a Galaga. They also had a Star Wars Pro, and they had a Mandalorian Pro. And they were on free play, which was just shocking to me. But it was fun. You could play those things. And I got a little bit. I know he set – I'm sure he hasn't changed any of the settings, but I got replays every time, so I felt like I was advancing things pretty well. And I was able to understand the code even though I've only played like five games on it.
    64:01
    So, yeah, I think it will still be a seller. I can tell you how many times people have when they find out you into pinball and then I tell them the latest themes they always light up Wait the Mandalorian Yeah Tell me more So again what did you say theme sales
    64:22
    It's the secret sauce. It really is. It's not a secret. It's the obby sauce. It's the pickle sauce on top of the Big Mac. By the way, I love – All it is is like pickle juice with mustard or whatever. I love that commercial. It's like, we have secret sauce. They're like, isn't that just like Thousand Island? They're like, shh.
    64:44
    It's like, what's the secret sauce? Well, we have themes. Oh, shh. Yeah. Yeah, shh. Don't talk about it. Don't give away the secrets. Exactly.
    64:54
    No, I'm looking forward to anything that's coming out. Like, I just, it stinks because, like, I remember being able just to browse Pinside and being like, oh, well, I want to see how many shadows are available. And you go on there and it'd be four or five. And you'd laugh at the ones that are like a thousand dollars more than what's the average price on pin side. And now you came and find a shadow on pin side. No, you can't. And so, but I think we are starting to hit an, like a, I mean, apex, a peak, whatever you want to call it. Um, because I'm starting to see, I don't think it can go up anymore. Yeah. I, and it seems like it is. Okay. I would argue it's probably risen to the level. it should be um i i still think that stern has always sold a a ridiculously competitively priced professional game um for their pros uh their premiums are probably more like right priced um but they're pro if you if that's exactly what you if that's what you want it's still a an arcade level game that you can put in your home. And they have some pretty crazy things in there. So it's probably just getting up to where it should be. And we saw that the collector's edition showed that there was a premium, an ultra premium market. Yeah. Well, I think the other thing too is people start to freak out when one of these machines sell for high dollar. But what about the machines that come after it? Like my example is, is medieval madness. I know a medieval madness Ellie just sold for like $16,000 a couple months ago. Wow. Okay. But still like after the fact now, uh, I go on there and people are having a hard time selling at 12. Like one of them sold at 12 just recently. Right. And so I, there's, there's usually a story behind that one or I, there was someone who I was, it was laughable. Like someone said they were selling, uh, it was a game for like $70,000 and it said, or best offer. I can't even remember what it was, but it was just like, wow, okay, they're really setting that high.
    67:03
    I think when we start seeing these games sell for a consistent high dollar, like a consistent... Like Tron. We know the story about the Tron that happened a month or two ago. It sold for like $25,000. Okay, I guess I... But it was really... Why did it sell for that high? I never figured that out. It was an LE, and it was really, really nice. It was like your pro, but an LE. Yeah. okay all right great so it has daft punk multi-ball that's 10 grand boom yeah boom but how many trons have sold for that much since then no exactly no yeah and so i think that's the problem is we we tend to take the pinball market at its highest peak and lock it into that and say well how dare they sell for this much like i saw on facebook the other day that this person posted on pinball enthusiasts and they're like i am quitting the hobby and i will come back when prices decide to finally go down you people are price gouging and this is ridiculous they've been said they've been saying that for years like i i ever since i've been by what else what else do you say like okay like so oh no you're holding out your money okay good luck yeah and as long there's the demand there like uh zach was talking about this on on the pinball show last week or this week it's like the problem is now is like people are jumping on waiting lists for games that haven't been announced yet well i and i think that that's what's going on people are still interested in that stuff so okay so i just tried to look on pin side and the highest you can put in is fifty thousand dollars just in case you're wondering oh i was and thank you yeah there you go so you're not allowed to sell over 50 000 so everyone out there listening right now exactly so yeah move it to ebay and take the ridiculous hit that ebay is going to hit you with to sell your pinball machine on there i'm i have a hundred thousand buy from ebay anyway so okay it's the matrix that's what it was so it was like um you know obviously this is a reskin right but it was $75,000 or best offered. They're like, is Keanu Reeves in the cabinet?
    69:18
    It's his future coffin. Right. Exactly. He gets to be buried in this. Yeah. So, yeah. Okay. So the top ones, someone's trying to sell Pirates of the Caribbean CE for $38,500. That's firm. How long has it been setting? When was it posted and how does it say it's been reposted? Is it a repost? He's totally trying to rip us off. It's Laser Kid. Come on.
    69:45
    Pirates of the Caribbean LE. That's $30,000. Maybe that's my alternate name, dude. I'm Laser Kid. When I'm trying to rip people off, I don't. Laser.
    69:57
    Tron LE for $22,000 or best offer. Pirates of the Caribbean LE. Yeah, these are all 37, 39 days. The Addams Family. New old stock. Feature? Okay. This is from, I don't even know what country this is. Germany? $55,000 or best offer. Okay. Okay. So basically that guy who left, the market is not coming back if these things are selling. Yeah. See, that's what I'm saying. People hear one of these selling and they freak out and it's like, well, that's not what they're all selling for. Right. And if prices raise, they're not raising by three thousand dollars. It's like, you know, you can still like whitewater. You used to get it for six. Now you can get it for like seven or, you know, something like that. Right. So I just I think really at this point, it's like there's just not enough supply to meet the demand. That's the problem we're having. That's the biggest problem. yeah and they can't churn them out fast enough because of part supplies and all that jazz and like i don't really want to get into it but the whole covet thing and oh it's just it's annoying like it really is like do you think that five years ago pinball people are setting like they're like oh these these games are gonna be worth this much money and you won't be able to get one anymore because they just, there's going to be waiting lines for Sterns. And it just, I think no one knew this was going to happen. Do you think as people start spending money on travel, do you think that they will start selling these games to fund other things? I think so. Yeah, I think so too. I think, honestly, we're at a weird intersection. I think either the people that were stuck at home for COVID have bought the pinball machine that they want they might get the silver bullet itch and want more or they'll just be like yeah i'm glad we got one now we can get back to traveling the world or whatever it may be yeah well okay so i um i actually booked um we made the mistake of telling our kids that we were thinking of going to hawaii and they immediately said uh yes you're taking us right so so yes we're taking our kids so that was never the plan but i guess it is now right Yeah, it is now, right? But okay, but speaking of supply and demand, what they want for rental cars is crazy right now. Yep. And like for eight days, like the price that we were quoted was $1,200 for a rental car. And so it's like, okay, like am I going to go to Hawaii? Look, I am not going to come to Hawaii until you like lower your prices. uh yeah so i i by so i just looked at cars uh at the time that i booked them and guess what not available they're all booked out so we just live in a crazy time uh i think the problem is it's so hard to predict right and that that's exactly what you're saying is that all bets are off because we have never went through something like this yeah pinball's never been through anything like this ever it's been around for a hundred years and granted because the market has shifted towards being a home market it is like this now yeah and and granted they might not be selling the numbers that they were back in the early 90s late 80s but still it it has never been this way okay but the product has been significantly better it it really has i even with all the challenges with new pinball machines uh you cannot compare the complexity of uh of avengers infinity quest or guns and roses or something like that to a adam samley like you just can't do that that's ridiculous so i guess it begs one question i know we're kind of getting out of time here it begs one question that i've really thought about this last couple of days what is the next thing that helps drive pinball to to advance or are we at that point of you can't advance pinball any further than what it has so like if you really think about innovation over the last even 20 years has been what the lcd screen yeah i mean really at this point it's more complex rules and and better game design is what's driving the hobby was the pin bar really the future like do Do you think that the pin bar could advance?
    74:43
    Granted, let's say Deep Root sells it to someone else. Let's say the pin bar becomes a thing at American Pinball or CGC, for heaven's sakes. Do you really think it advances the industry into a whole new direction? Or do you think it's just a gimmick?
    75:00
    What will take it to the next direction will definitely be internet challenges. I, that is absolutely what it is. It's the, I, this is totally at the end of the show, but, um, absolutely. If you're like, Hey, um, I want to challenge you to a game and there's a way that you can verify your setup, um, or at least have like, you know, it could be an honor system thing. Right. but there there are definitely ways that you can do it and compete online or or co-compete right you could do a a hey uh you and i are both going to attack thanos or something like that but that is definitely where the uh where it's going to be okay yeah i agree with you i think that's probably what pushes it next so and and after listening to the gary stern interview that happened just this last week uh it sounds like something huge is coming they're claiming that they've got something that's going to reinvent the will essentially for pinball and and they've been working on this internet thing for a while now so yeah let's see what happens so you know but i it will things like that will happen so yeah hey good news i can i can uh rent a lamborghini for 1400 a day where you're gonna put your kids though who cares they're staying home it's a lamborghini in the trunk so i'm kidding i know lamborghinis don't have trunks so yeah you gotta put the engine somewhere exactly is there anything else we want to cover i mean we're we're at the end no no we're we're kind of spitballing. This has been kind of a brainstorm show just because we are at a little bit of a lull, the summer lull. And I totally understand it. We already talked about Spooky has had their big push. And hey, we talked about that last time. Their big sellout. We're still, you know, JJP, there's not going to be much until they are able to catch up on all their Guns N' Roses stuff. So really... Sorry, that brings up one last question. Do you think that they've gotten a big enough black eye from the play field issues that they've had and with the response that they've had? Do you think it hurts their business going forward? Or are we pretty much at the point of stuff's going to sell as long as it's themed properly?
    77:36
    I actually think it has. because high-end collectors who are willing to drop $12,000 on a toy, I mean, come on, a pinball machine is a luxury item, right? You do not need a pinball machine, right? It is not one of the things that are necessary for life.
    78:01
    But they expect a level of professionalism that you get a game that doesn't need to have all these little issues. And, yeah, I actually think they're going to have to do some catch-up because now the rumored next theme, right, is Toy Story. Do you think Toy Story has the same drawing power as Guns N' Roses? Because I don't. Possibly. I don't. I think it's a cute theme, but I think their issues with the playfields on Guns N' Roses are going to bleed into Toy Story. And people are going to be cautious. Now, people were cautious when the triple spinning disc on Pirates of the Caribbean. And so they sold less of them. And therefore, they became more valuable, ironically. So could it ultimately help the resale market? But maybe. But I think that, you know, I get I want every machine to succeed. Every machine in every company, I really do want them to succeed. It just seems that every time JJP releases a game, there's always something. And it's not a minor thing. It ends up being a major thing. So I think people are nervous. At least I'm nervous. If I were buying a JJP, I'd be nervous. same here it it's definitely made me hesitate yeah i don't know if that's fair but i don't think i'm an outlier on that i agree it definitely uh you definitely second thing you second guess in my opinion yeah i could be wrong don't get me wrong i love jjp games i love they are definitely an experience they are they are an experience compared to any other pinball machine yeah but But you have to take into account all this stuff, right? Yeah. And so that's really what it comes down to, is that eventually if you're paying that much for a machine, you don't want to have issues.
    80:11
    Now, that being said, Pirates is a fun game. It's a fun game, and Guns N' Roses is an experience. So at least they have their secret sauce. They just need to fix the manufacturing. secret sauce. That's really where their issues have been.
    80:29
    I agree. You fix that problem, I think it alleviates the other... I think they're still doing fine. I literally think they're still doing a great job. So it's not... They still have a good trajectory. Alrighty. Well, if you want to get a hold of us, we are Loser Kid Pinball Podcast at gmail.com. You can get a hold of us on Facebook, Instagram, Twitter, at Loser Kid Pinball. We're also on Twitch now. When I do decide to stream i will probably be streaming this next week uh because um my wife and son are going to go to yellowstone with my in-laws and i get to stay home with the babies so i'll be putting them down for bed and probably jumping on a pinball machine or two yeah so look look it out for that we'll definitely have the challenges i'll probably even try to do the challenges myself since i both i own both avengers infinity quest and world cup soccer i think that might be fun to do on on stream um we do have another batch of hats there won't be a ton of them i will be saving one for the giveaway uh try to think what else okay remind them what the giveaway is again oh yes so pin quest download pin quest for your phone android apple whatever it may be pin quest you can uh it's best if you go to the website and they'll just redirect you right to where it needs to be download the app make yourself an account there's challenges monthly and it's going to be called the guest host challenge if i remember correctly so click on the guest host uh like the mystery guest host it will be us and you you accept the challenge and if you do if you beat the high school or beat the score you set for avengers and for world cup you will get an entry for each score you do not sorry not each score for each time you've beat that crap not like that if you if you accomplish that high score on those two games then you'll get two entries if you only accomplish on one game you'll get one entry but you'll get a virtual trophy no matter what if you do so all right there's our little logo on it so um is there anything else i could just swear uh maybe there's not the problem is it's been a busy summer gosh dang it yeah no it's in seriously we we try to record as as often as we can but i've taken like two uh two one week vacations and they've been local but trying to spend family time at the same time and yeah it's just challenging so but you know what the good news is we hey we are willing to give you loser kid podcast content as soon as we can.
    83:06
    Yep. And Glenn has a question for you, Scott. Okay. Check it out. We've given him a shout out already once today. I'm going to give him one more. Are you ready for this? All right. Go ahead. He wants to know if it's going to be weird having your biggest fan as your Expo roommate.
    83:23
    Well, you're my Expo roommate, Josh, so you're my biggest fan. Are you going to start singing Edwin McCann? Like, I'll be your crying shoulder.
    83:35
    You know, I'll be. No, actually, I will say big shout out to Glenn. Glenn did have a room with our friend Lee and Lee actually got called to go back east. So he is not like when I say back east, I mean the Far East. He's going to Asia. And so he asked us, like, hey, why don't you contact Glenn? So we do have a place at the hotel, which is great. And so all three of us are going to kumbaya in there. We haven't really figured out who's Big Spoon or Little Spoon or if we're going to spork it. But I'm not really sure. But we'll figure something out. And Glenn has insisted that we get the king-size bed instead of the two queens. Oh, awkward. Okay.
    84:17
    We're going to sleep like a triangle. Have you ever seen Without a Paddle? No. Watch Without a Paddle. I can't believe you've never seen that movie. Okay, is this something that my wife's going to raise her eyebrow at me? Like, what are you doing?
    84:35
    It's PG-13. It's appropriate. I can't yell, put Jabba back in his hut, because you won't get the reference. Okay, all right. I'll have to figure it out.
    84:49
    That'd be a great pinball theme. We should go Without a Paddle. Yeah, exactly. A re-thing of Whitewater, yeah.
    84:56
    Yeah, it was a mediocre movie at best for popcorn fodder back in the 2000s. It's still good. It's just, if you're looking for something that you may or may not want to be on your phone with while you're watching it. Oh, it's got Seth Green. Do you like Seth Green? Oh, there you go. All right, guys. We'll check you out in about two weeks. Thanks again. All right, too.
    85:23
    We'll see you next time.