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Episode 54 - Things That Make You Go Hmm...

Special When Lit·podcast_episode·51m 20s·analyzed·May 28, 2019
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claude-haiku-4-5-20251001 · $0.030

TL;DR

Hosts lament unrealistic pinball pricing and poor seller ethics in secondary market.

Summary

Ken Cromwell and Bill Webb discuss frustrating personal experiences with pinball machine transactions and pricing absurdities. Ken recounts being strung along by a Class of 1812 seller who sold the machine out from under him after weeks of negotiations, while Bill examines an egregiously overpriced Gilligan's Island restoration ($10,800) that exemplifies what they see as market pricing gone out of control. They debate secondary market inflation, eBay comps driving unrealistic asking prices, and express concern about the sustainability of current collector pricing.

Key Claims

  • Gilligan's Island pinball machines typically sell in the $22-$35 range for nice examples, with $35-$39 being exceptional

    high confidence · Ken Cromwell, citing market comps for vintage Gilligan's Island machines

  • A Scared Stiff with a fully clear-coated playfield by Brian Kelly restoration sold for around $10,000

    high confidence · Bill Webb, discussing his own recent sale of a high-end restored Scared Stiff

  • Sellers are using eBay listings (which are asking prices, not sold prices) as price comps, inflating perceived market values

    high confidence · Ken Cromwell, reflecting on a Black Knight seller citing eBay prices of $6,000-$7,000

  • The seller of the Class of 1812 claimed it sold to an Indiana buyer for significantly more than the agreed-upon price with Ken

    medium confidence · Ken Cromwell, recounting the seller's explanation for backing out of their negotiated deal

  • There are specific pinball buyers in Indiana who have repeatedly outbid Ken on machines he had agreements to purchase

    medium confidence · Ken Cromwell, reflecting on a pattern of losing deals to Indiana-based flipper/dealers

  • The Gilligan's Island restoration ad claims $8,000 invested in the machine, with $10,800 asking price

    high confidence · Bill Webb, reading the Pinside ad aloud during the episode

  • Vintage pinball restoration investments typically result in 25-50% losses, not profit recovery

    medium confidence · Ken Cromwell, comparing pinball restoration economics to classic car restoration

  • Secondary market aftermarket modifications (Red Smoke mods on Wizard of Oz, Mike D. Creature mods) are selling for $800-$2,300

    medium confidence · Ken Cromwell, citing examples of inflated modding prices

  • Bill Webb sold a Scared Stiff in approximately one week

    high confidence · Bill Webb, noting quick sale of high-end restoration despite high price

Notable Quotes

  • “Dude, if you're trying to sell something, you have to cater to the customer.”

    Bill Webb@ 4:48 — Core sentiment on seller responsibility and transparency in negotiations

  • “Sorry, sold. Nice. Sorry, sold.”

    Ken Cromwell@ 5:44 — The moment Ken's Class of 1812 deal fell through; defines the emotional turning point of the episode

  • “Well, you know what it is? When you get into those high-end restorations or like those classic pins that are H-U-O or new in box, there's just a very small segmented market of collectors that want to acquire those games.”

    Bill Webb@ 14:58 — Acknowledges niche collector market but questions if it extends to Gilligan's Island

  • “You can have 99 critics or, you know, 99 tire kickers. All you need is one.”

    Bill Webb@ 15:22 — Core argument that even absurd pricing can find a buyer if one collector is motivated

  • “eBay is not the Kelly Blue Book of pinball machines. The reason you seeing these things for sale at [high prices] is because they haven't sold.”

    Ken Cromwell @ ~63:00 — Key insight on market comp inflation and the distortion caused by unsold listings

  • “Pinball's gone crazy, brother.”

    Bill Webb@ 21:22 — Summary of overall market sentiment; frustration with pricing trajectory

  • “I just want to buy all five of Jersey Jack pinball's machines. And be done. And be done with my collection for now.”

    Ken Cromwell@ 26:01 — Indicates collector anxiety about market sustainability and desire to 'exit' volatility

  • “I'm scared at how crazy the prices are going, and they don't seem to be slowing down.”

Entities

Ken CromwellpersonBill WebbpersonSpecial When LitorganizationClass of 1812gameGilligan's IslandgameScared StiffgameBrian KellypersonChris Hutchinsperson

Signals

  • $

    market_signal: Vintage pinball games priced significantly above historical comps; Gilligan's Island at $10,800 vs typical $22-$35 range exemplifies broader trend

    high · Direct pricing comparisons and discussion of Scared Stiff at $10K, Gilligan's Island at $10.8K vs historical $25-35 range

  • $

    market_signal: Sellers citing eBay listing prices (not sold prices) as market comps, inflating asking prices based on unsold inventory

    high · Ken's account of Black Knight seller citing $6K-$7K eBay prices; Ken explicitly states 'eBay is not the Kelly Blue Book of pinball machines'

  • ~

    sentiment_shift: Experienced collectors expressing concern about market sustainability and considering liquidation or collection reset

    high · Ken states 'I'm scared at how crazy the prices are going, and they don't seem to be slowing down' and expresses desire to exit and consolidate around Jersey Jack machines

  • ?

    product_concern: Restoration investments unlikely to achieve ROI; $8K invested in Gilligan's Island asking $10.8K with expectation of 25-50% loss on typical restoration

    high · Bill and Ken's discussion of restoration economics; comparison to classic car restoration losses; Scared Stiff example of high-end restoration still depreciating

  • ?

    community_signal: Poor seller practices observed: non-responsive communication, backing out of agreed deals, lack of transparency about condition

    high · Ken's detailed account of Class of 1812 seller's delay tactics, poor photo quality, and last-minute cancellation; discussion of seller using fake justifications

Topics

Secondary market pricing inflationprimarySeller ethics and negotiation integrityprimaryHigh-end restoration economics and ROIprimaryeBay as misleading market comp toolprimaryCollector market sustainability concernsprimaryAftermarket modifications and pricingsecondaryPinball acquisition strategies and networkingsecondaryVintage pinball game valuationsprimary

Sentiment

negative(-0.75)— Strong frustration with secondary market pricing, seller dishonesty, and market inflation. Ken expresses anxiety about investment sustainability and considers exiting the collector market. Bill is critical but slightly more measured, acknowledging small niche markets while questioning pricing logic. Both hosts express exhaustion and bewilderment at current market dynamics.

Transcript

groq_whisper · $0.154

0:00
Are pinball companies using marketing to their advantage for the release of new pins and exposure of pinball? Converting a garage to a game room? Do you need to f***ing swear all the f***ing time to have an interesting pinball podcast? Bill's Corner and more on this edition of the Special When Lit Pinball Podcast. Coming at you out of St. Charles, Illinois, the Special When Lit Pinball Podcast starts... now. Hey, what's going on, Pinball Land? This is Special One Lit episode number 54. I'm Ken
0:36
Cromwell. I am Bill Webb. Bill, we're here. It's Memorial Day here in the United States of America. We want to thank all the servicemen and women and their families for all their continued support and sacrifices that they have made or are going to be making. So hats off to you guys. Yep, yep, absolutely, man. We wouldn't be here today for the sacrifices that they have made. This is True. So what's up with you, man? What's up with Bill Webb? Dude, crazy weekend, man. Got a lot done around the house. Took the daughter to the zoo.
1:06
Had a camel try and spit at us. It was a good time, man. Your daughter's three? Yeah. Three and a half? Three going on four. So she likes the zoo? She does. It was a little hot, a little warm, and she was a little aggravated, but that's okay. It's all right. It's good. Good weekend, man. What a better way to cool yourself off with a little camel spit. Absolutely, man. I was hoping it was Camel Joe, but it actually was like Camel Sally. Camel Joe would have been a completely different experience for your three-year-old. Well, it was a legitimate camel. I mean, we're not talking about a poster from 1988.
1:38
So good times, man. What's good with you? Yeah, nothing. Not so much, man. I'm in the midst of coaching Little League Baseball while trying to make sense of pinball podcasting and pinball streaming. And I had an unfortunate instance that had happened with my Class of 1812 sale. No. So I'll give a quick update for those of you that have been following the show. I've been looking for a class of 1812 for months and months and months. And I finally found somebody that was a referral from somebody from that listens to the show. They said, hey, check out this Facebook Craigslist ad.

  • There is a potential Gilligan's Island museum opening in the United States that could be seeking artifacts

    low confidence · Bill Webb, speculating on hypothetical museum as potential justification for high pricing

    • Ken Cromwell@ 26:26 — Direct expression of market concern from experienced collector

  • “I just can't bring myself to do that because I think at some point that's going to come around and bite me.”

    Ken Cromwell@ 24:30 — Reflects hesitancy to exploit sellers, contrasting with broader market behavior

  • “Shame on you there's no other way to say it.”

    Ken Cromwell@ 9:12 — Direct moral critique of the Class of 1812 seller's lack of integrity

    • Pinsideorganization
    High Pinsorganization
    Jersey Jack Pinballcompany
    Whirlwindgame
    Black Knightgame
    Creature from the Black Lagoongame
    Wizard of Ozgame
    Simpsonsgame
    eBayorganization
    Indiana buyer/flipper networkorganization
  • ?

    collector_signal: High-end collector expressing hesitation about further acquisitions due to market volatility and pricing uncertainty

    high · Ken states he wants to consolidate collection to five Jersey Jack machines and 'be done for a while'; expresses fear of how far behind he'd be if market crashes

  • ?

    business_signal: Regional buyer networks (Indiana flipper group) outbidding local collectors on machines, creating acquisition friction

    medium · Ken mentions multiple instances of Indiana buyers beating him out on deals despite being local; describes them as preventing purchases

  • ?

    operational_signal: Collector networking strategy: identifying moving companies and appliance repair professionals as sources for estate machines

    medium · Ken's story about neighbor in moving company identifying Black Knight in basement; Ken recommends finder fee strategy to listeners

  • $

    market_signal: Vintage games experiencing sustained price appreciation despite restoration cost barriers; data point that prices continue upward regardless of ROI logic

    medium · Reflection on Simpsons pinball that was mocked at $3K years ago, now seems like prescient pricing; Whirlwind comp joke illustrating escalation spiral

  • ?

    design_philosophy: High-end restoration philosophy emphasizes pristine condition, clear-coated playfields, and comprehensive restoration as justification for premium pricing

    medium · Gilligan's Island ad detail listing: new playfield clear-coated, new complete decals, LED conversion, custom topper, etc.; Bill's discussion of Scared Stiff cosmetics

  • ?

    industry_signal: Market segmented into niche high-end collector segment (HUO/new-in-box/premium restoration) vs general market; small segment willing to pay premium but creates price anchoring effect

    medium · Bill's comment: 'When you get into those high-end restorations or like those classic pins that are H-U-O...there's just a very small segmented market'; 'all you need is one [buyer]'

  • ?

    rumor_hype: Hypothetical Gilligan's Island museum opening cited as potential justification for inflated pricing; unconfirmed rumor used to rationalize market outlier

    low · Bill speculates: 'If there's rumors of a Gilligan's Island Museum...I'm pricing it right around $10,700, $10,800'

    • 2:09
    Check it out. Contact the seller. So we've gone back and forth for about 10 days. And it was tough because every single time I asked if I could get some pictures of the pin, he would send them. but they were just the worst quality pictures ever. So it's like when I send you pictures. No. All right, so the pictures that you send me that aren't the best quality just because of compression looks like they should be in the Smithsonian compared to the pictures I'm getting from this seller. So he was using a Polaroid then. No, a Polaroid would have been great.
    2:39
    It almost looked like it was getting run through some sketch program. It was just so – it was really, really tough. Now, I was willing to look past some of that because I thought to myself, the drive isn't terribly far. Or if it's under three hours and it's a disappointment. Now, I'll go into a house, and if the pin is not as described, I don't feel like I'm being held hostage because I made the trip. You know why? Two reasons. One, I didn't drive that far because I don't drive that far. Yeah. And number two, I'm not going to force myself into a situation because the seller didn't provide accurate information.
    3:17
    No, I completely agree with you, man. And there's been a couple of situations that I've been in where somebody said, oh, yeah, it's beautiful, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. You show up and you're like, beauty is in the eye of the beholder, but what prescription do you wear? Right. I mean, really. Every single time I ask, like I remember at one point I was like, so what condition is the back glass? And he's like, well, last I checked it was in good shape, but today wasn't a good day, so I can't check it right now. So there was just a lot of excuses, which was preventing me from getting the information that I was looking for. Again, the risk wasn't as high because I wasn't getting this shipped.
    3:49
    I was going to go pick this up. But there was still risk involved because I was going to invest half a day into going there and back to get this pinball machine. So recently, the way that we had left it was I said, listen, I appreciate the fact that you're texting me these pictures, but they're just not coming through on my end for me to really make a final judgment call on the machine. So we agreed on a price, and I said I can be out there next week, and this was like a week ago. I said, just do me a favor, email me the pics so that I can see them so that they're not compressed and I can at least get a better idea what's going on.
    4:20
    Yeah. Hey, no problem. I'm going to be home later tonight and I'll email you those. It's just been really busy is the reply from the seller. And by tonight, that's normally a two-day window. Exactly. So I wasn't expecting anything to happen that evening. I had waited and waited and waited. Five, six days had gone past. And again, with this particular seller, I was already conditioned to be patient because it just there was no instant gratification on anything that I asked for, which is red flag, red flag, red, red flag, which blows my mind with sellers. Dude, if you're trying to sell something, you have to cater to the customer.
    4:52
    Right, right. You know, now he had this 1812 price ridiculously high and I came in just under what I thought it was worth. So we kind of went back and forth. We negotiated something that was, in my opinion, what I thought it would be worth after I had put money into it and time and labor. And at that point, I was willing to do that because of this particular title I've been searching for. And if it takes me $200 or $300 to get it to the value in which I paid for it, I'm fine because I'm not trying to flip the pin.
    5:22
    I'm trying to acquire the pin. No, you want to play it and enjoy it. Right. So anyways, long story short, after six or seven days of this guy going on hiatus waiting for these email picks, I pinged him right before the show. And I said, hey, listen, I'm still waiting on the picks. I understand you're busy. And it's Memorial Day. It's a holiday. But I just want to let you know I'm still waiting. And then, like, instantaneously, I get to reply, sorry, sold. Nice. Sorry, sold. So now I've got one of two ways that I can approach this. I can just go silently into the night. Or his email.
    5:52
    Or. Or the show. No, I'm kidding. Well, first of all, it's not for me to disclose who the seller is and where the location is. I mean, if you guys are up to date on what's going on with 1812s, chances are you've seen where this pin was located. I'm not outing the guy personally. But I had one or two situations, a crossroad here. I could just be like, hey, all right, I'm not going to even reply to this guy. Or I'm going to jab at him a little bit because he strung me along. And full disclosure, I had passed on another pin that I could have acquired at a better deal than the 1812 because I was looking to get the 1812.
    6:23
    it was something I was looking for. Yep. So I asked him, I said, hey, so you just sold this out from underneath me and you didn't even let me know what's going on? And he's like, oh, sorry. And then he said, this was sold in Indiana and he gave this ridiculous price that this guy from Indiana paid for the pin. So now there, Indiana's a sore spot for me for pinball machines because there's been more than one occasion where I was local, had kind of grabbed something or solidified what I thought was a deal. I couldn't get a deposit over there, not because I didn't want to give a deposit, but because the seller wasn't accepting a deposit.
    6:58
    But before I can get there or before the seller agreed, it was sold to somebody in Indiana. There's some flippers all over the United States, but there's one or two in Indiana that for certain have prevented me from purchasing pinball machines. And, hey, you know what? That's just the way of the land. That's what happens. Pinball skellywags, man. But the price that he said that it sold for, I know, at least I hope that these guys that I'm thinking might have acquired the pin, they didn't pay for that. So he's essentially letting me down easy saying, listen, man, the price that we agreed on was so much more overly paid by the Indiana purchaser that, you know, don't feel bad because it's not like you missed out on convenience.
    7:36
    Okay, but here's what aggravates me about that situation. Dude, you should have had the right of first refusal. You basically made a deal. You were just waiting for email picks. You know, all was good. I was waiting on the seller. Yes. Okay. Agreed upon price. But, dude, you know, okay, fine. Somebody comes in and tries to beat you out. I mean, I still think it's not the greatest move for the seller to be like, oh, well, listen, I must have undervalued my pin because I have a gentleman that wants to drive four hours to pick this pin up at a 30% markup of what I'm going to sell it to you for.
    8:07
    So here's your opportunity to come up and let's get real on price, or you have the right to pass on it. It sucks. So, I mean, again, one of multiple things could have happened. The guy from Indiana might have had somebody that's going to buy it for even more, so he's able to come in higher than I did. Absolutely possible. Number two, the guy from Indiana had come out and offered more than I did. And with this particular seller, it could have been $50 or $100, could have enticed him or swayed him one way or the other based on the price that we had agreed on. And he just sold it somewhere else.
    8:37
    I don't have a problem with that. The problem that I had was after going back and forth for weeks, me passing up on something else, me not being able to get the information that the seller that I requested from the seller and for him to fulfill his word was completely disappointing. But again, we just talked about this couple episodes again. It's the way of the land. I'm sure not just in Chicago, but anywhere else. So for those of you that have been following my class of 1812 story, it might be 2112 before I get one, assuming that my legend lives on. and uh for for the gentleman that uh purchased that machine that purchased the machine good for
    9:12
    you i i mean whatever but to the seller uh shame on you there's no other way to say it at some see and this is the other thing enough people paths cross in this little circle of pinball because this isn't this guy's first pinball machine that he sold uh okay so what comes around goes around i fully believe and uh i don't know man i was just i was disappointed the way that panned out the the real snuff kind of dismissal and then him trying to make me feel better that somebody paid a lot more than what he agreed on it doesn't make me feel better it
    9:43
    makes him feel better and it's a complete lie because if somebody paid that amount of money for that pinball machine they're the world's biggest kiddie edition that machine was in what was the nicest 1812 that came out of the box no this machine was was completely filthy in the bad fuzzy picks and i don't mind a filthy machine because sometimes it sometimes protects it it It does a little bit, or it means it hasn't been used for a long time. I don't mind shopping out a pin and tearing everything down and cleaning it up. So for me, it was enticing. It wouldn't be the first pinball machine I bought that was dirty that ended up being one of the nicest in my collection.
    10:13
    But I don't know. I just thought I'd update that a little bit because that sucked, and that was poor business. And there's no word that – there's no honesty. There's no, I don't know, respect being – Integrity? Integrity, yes. Dude, you know, all right, so there's one post that I saw recently that still has me scratching my head. Local guy on Pinside posted Gilligan's Island. Yeah. Well, you know, he went through the whole game, I guess, new decals, new legs, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, new play field, okay?
    10:47
    It's Gilligan's Island, not Twilight Zone. It didn't come out of the box last year, right? No. What do you think the bargain price of that machine is according to the seller? His asking price. Or like a restored Gilligan's Island? Very nice Gilligan's Island, which has yet to be said because in this particular instance, if you're ever going to sell a game at way over price, make sure you have like 30, 40 pictures of every single thing. So your clue is overpriced. Yeah. So like the inside of the cabinet. I can't stand not seeing the inside of cabinets.
    11:18
    And pictures like that. If you're going to have a $10,000 plus game. Well, and you're a cabinet builder, so that's got to be like a sticking point for you. You want to see the integrity of the work. Yeah, I want to see that it's not beat to snot. Sure. No pictures of that, dude. There's like six or eight pictures, maybe 10 or 12, but nothing like really in the back box. The cabinet, no pictures inside of the cabinet. Just not the best presentation of a game that you're trying to get $10,800. Right, right. I get it. Wait, what? $10,800 for a very nice example of a Gilligan's Island.
    11:54
    Whoa! Yes. $10,800 for Gilligan's Island. Yes. All right. I'm going to title this podcast Things That Make Me Go, or I'm scratching my head because I don't understand. I don't understand the seller on the 1812. I don't understand anybody that thinks that, I mean, unless some of the ashes from some of the deceased actors and actresses are included in some type of an LE package, it's still not $10,800.
    12:25
    If the cabinet was built out of the original SS Minnow, I don't think it would be worth that. So I've seen this, and I'm just like, you've got to be flipping kidding me. He asked $10,000? He's asking $10,800. Okay so all right and let just put this in perspective because you can take literally any pinball machine of almost all time 99 pinball machines that ever were released Especially in the 90s That get a full let say high pins which is HEP restoration or at the time like a Brian Kelly restoration Those pins are up in that ten thousand dollar range.
    12:59
    And I can guarantee you this. Actually, I can't guarantee you anything right now with the way pinball prices are. But if HEP restored a Gilgan's Island, I don't see that being a ten thousand eight hundred dollar pin. So unless Chris Hutchins or Brian Kelly are hanging out in Aurora and they're restoring Gilligan's Island pinball machines, where does the $10,800... And maybe it is. Where's the value in that, though? Maybe it was. Dude, maybe Brian Kelly did a Gilligan's Island. It's probably going to be the only one. Even so, $10,800? What's a going price on a Gilligan's?
    13:30
    $25? Dude, I think between $22 and $28. I mean, I've seen a couple go in the $35 range. Okay, so those have to be your world nicest Gilligan's Island. I would think so. At $35. Yeah. $38. even maybe $39.95. And the plastic better still be on that damn game from the factory at that price. I mean, it's still a Gilligan's Island. Right. Some goodie bag inside that nobody ever knew existed. Exactly. Yeah. Dude, I don't get it, man. Now, I'm curious to see what happens with this game.
    14:02
    But, you know, I mean, I kind of wanted to go off into this, too. You had a Brian Kelly restored, home use only scared stiff. I mean, the game before he touched it was beautiful. And that play field was pulled, depopulated, clear-coded. I mean, everything was redone on it, even though – because HUO, and for those that don't know what HUO means, it's like an acronym, right? So it's for home use only. Yes. Home use only basically says that, listen, this game's never been outside of an owner that owned it in a house. It's not been on location. When a game goes on location and it's routed, as the common term is, it depreciates a little bit more because it's out in the general public.
    14:40
    So it's weathered by what's going on with people that are playing it that don't know proper Connecticut. So an H.U.O. Scared Stiff with a clear coat of play field at $10,000, I thought was like, even when I owned it, I was like, that's a lot of money. It was. Dude, you didn't have a hard time selling it? I think you sold that in like a week. Well, you know what it is? When you get into those high-end restorations or like those classic pins that are H-U-O or new in box, there's just a very small segmented market of collectors that want to acquire those games. Yeah.
    15:10
    And you could be waiting. You can be waiting. Now, is there like a very small segmented market that's looking for the world's nicest Gilligan's Island at $10,800? You know, here, we talked about this, dude. You know, you can have 99 critics or, you know, 99 tire kickers. All you need is one. But I will not understand if someone actually buys that. Let's say they got $300 off. You have a 10-5 Scared Stiff. You have a 10-5 Gilligan's Island. And listen, if that thing sells above $9,000, I will guarantee you this.
    15:43
    I'm getting a Gilligan's Island that was lightly flooded somewhat soon. The air quotes on the lightly flooded. Lightly flooded. Bill likes water. He likes pins that have been submerged in water. Yeah, you know, nothing like that. He likes that. Well, no, this one was in the basement and the pipe burst and whatever. $10,800. So if that game went above $8,000, believe me. If that game went above $5,000, I'm stunned. No, dude, there's things that if it went above $8,000, I will tell you what.
    16:16
    You're going to want to wait nine months. I will redo Gilligan's Island, and I'll have a $10,000 Gilligan's Island for sale. Absolutely. Well, I mean, and full disclosure, I've not looked at the ad. So unless you're overseeing something that's pretty significant as far as the specifics and if you want to get into the ad, we can. But I mean, nothing stood out to you. Was there a new play field? It was a new play field. It was clear coated. Was the cabinet clear coated where they're like solid gold armor that was applied to the machine? No. I mean, I just don't know how you would just.
    16:48
    Now, the other thing is this, though. If there's rumors of a Gilligan's Island Museum that might be opening up somewhere in the United States and they're looking for rare artifacts to be put into that museum, at that point, if I've got a nice Gilligan's Island, I'm pricing it right around $10,700, $10,800. Listen, I get that part, but still. All right. Go ahead. I want you to read the ad as I break the computer. Well, as I drop it. All right, so we're going to read the ad real quick, and then we're going to switch gears. We're going to go into another topic, but here it is.
    17:20
    Item description. Gilligan's Island. This is the nicest Gilligan's Island in existence. There's been a lot of that going on lately. Everyone is the nicest one. Nicest Gilligan's, nicest Whirlwind, nicest podcast or whatever works. High-end collectors only like it, but was just pulled out of the box in 91, but even better. Fully restored top to bottom. Restoration was done. Now, here we go. We're going to run down this real quick. We're going to wrap this up here in three minutes, but let's get into the description. New old stock playfield clear-coated. and in parentheses says, try finding a new Gilligan playfield.
    17:51
    The reason you can't find one is because no one's looking for one. I don't think there's one. New complete cabinet and head decals, metal cabinet corners, blue T-molding, new rails, new lockdown bar assembly, new lockdown bar, new coin door, new legs and bolts, new hinges, colored DMD. Isn't that nice? LED throughout the machine, custom topper, Gilligan's SS middle figure, Gilligan's shooter rod, side graphics, new island motor, in parentheses, is so quiet, can't even tell it's running. New plastics, HD glass, new custom target decals, new coin box, power bands, professionally
    18:23
    framed flyer with all the original plastic set and an engraved plate specific to this machine. So that's got to be about six grand of the cost. With that being said, it's an expensive machine, a lot of money and a lot of time went into this process. I have over 8K in the machine. This is all part of the ad. Serious buyers only. I have a link on Pinside with the restoration process if interested emailing me. And it's listed at $10,800. And I think the problem is this. So the seller is thinking that he's factoring in his investment on the machine at $8,000,
    19:00
    which makes this the world's most expensive Gilligan's Island as far as a project goes, most likely. You can have the world's most expensive. You go. What's it really worth? And this is what I'm saying. First, I commend this guy for putting as much money into a Gilligan's Island. Because Gilligan's Island, they don't get a lot of love. No, they don't, dude. And it could be just a complete cult following on that game, dude. And we're blowing this way out of portion. I know. There is no cult following that justifies a $10,800 price tag. I do want to say this, especially because the guy's local. I think it's awesome that he put the money into the pin to make it like a pristine example of a survivor of Gilligan's Island.
    19:35
    So do I. I think that's great that you brought a game back. And it's a beautiful example. It should survive longer than us. But guess what? That's where that respect ends, dude, because you're not going to get your investment back. So even if you price it at $8,000 and it goes back in the classic cars or anything else, you put all this money into a car, you put $40,000 into a muscle car, you're not getting $40,000 back. No. You're getting maybe 20% of your investment on that back. You're going to lose 25% to 30%. Okay. Maybe 40%. Maybe 50%. It depends on the car, too.
    20:06
    But $8,000 in, and then he's asking another $2,800 for his efforts on that. Don't forget a poster that's framed in a plaque. Listen, all I'm going to say is this. Bill, bad boy, Bill. Listen, all I'm going to say is this. So if that game sells anywhere near that price tag, even 20% less, right? So 20% less would be what? $80-some-hundred dollars. Wow. Right? Okay.
    20:36
    If that's the case, I have to have an $8,000 or $9,000 whirlwind in my eyes. Dude, your whirlwind is worth $54,000. I mean, based on the inflation and based on what's going on with that comp, it's a $54,000 whirlwind. Dude, I like it. Which is kind of cool because if you price that at $48,500 and put a plaque, maybe a flyer with something signed by Pat Lawler, it could be a $63,000, $64,000 whirlwind. Original shards from a tornado? No, right. I'm poking fun, but I mean... It's out of hand, dude.
    21:06
    It's ridiculously out of hand. And no offense to the seller because, I mean, actually, we're making fun at your expense here. And I've never seen anything that even makes sense on something like this. And here's the thing, dude. It makes no sense, dude. It doesn't make sense. Bill, I'm grabbing a beer. I can't take it anymore. Dude, I... Pinball's gone crazy, brother. Listen, I'm not trying to make fun of the guy, per se. What I'm poking at is, are we literally that out of hand on pricing? Yeah. You know why? We have $2,300 Mike D. Creature from the Black Lagoon mods.
    21:39
    We got $800 Red Smoke mods on Wizard of Oz being resold. We have $10,800 Gilligan Island being sold. That means your Scared Stiff should have been worth like $20. The Scared Stiff, I'm unfortunate that I had sold it. Listen, here, and the last thing I'm going to say on this. I'm not sad. You know what? Because I can't bring myself to ask that kind of money for something that I know isn't worth that money. But that's just me. It doesn't make me better or worse. You know, capitalist, whatever. If you can go out and get $10,000, even, dude, if you can get $6,000.
    22:10
    If you can get $6,000 for that Gilgan Island that you put $8,000 into, cut your losses and call it a good day. Hey, hopefully you got 2,000 plays on it. And you know what? And this goes back to like my seller with the 1812 that thought it was worth all this money telling me that he sold it for about what he was asking. It's just, there's no way he did. There's no way he did. And if he did, great. Good for him. He feels better that he screwed you out of a deal. If he did, great. You know what? If he did, I don't blame him. Now, I wouldn't back out and screw somebody out of the deal, but if I got screwed out of a deal and it was because of his asking price, great. But this $10,800 Gilligan's Island, and we spent way more time on this Gilligan's Island than we probably should.
    22:45
    Dude, yeah, but this is a very bold asking price, number one. Number two, if anyone out there that listens to this podcast offers anything on this Gilligan's Island, please let us know. And actually, we probably should reach out to the seller and be like, dude, I would love to just to be like, dude, I want to see. if this thing ever sells at this price. Because if it does, we're all underselling pinball right now. I had another circumstance that just happened last week. So a buddy of mine that lives in my subdivision, so he owns a moving company.
    23:17
    And I'm like, hey, man, if you ever run across some pinball machines or arcade machines, a lot of people that are moving. And I suggest anybody that knows anybody that's in the moving industry or even repairing or fixing appliances, if you know somebody that's doing that and going to homes and basements especially, actually reach out to them and be like, listen, I do collect and I am looking for these games and I'm happy to give you a finder fee if you find something that I actually purchased. Yep. I mean, it makes sense. So my neighbor goes into a basement recently and he's like, hey, there's a guy here. He's got an original Black Knight.
    23:49
    He just wants, he was going to give it away to a family member because he doesn't want to move it because who wants to move a pinball machine, right? Especially out of a basement. Yep. He doesn't want to pay the moving company to bring it to another location. So he's like, do you want it? Do you want to make an offer? I was like, yeah, sure. I'm like, it all depends on condition. But what is he looking for? He goes, well, he was going to give it away for free, so why don't you start low? And I'm like, all right. So I'm like, tell him that as is without seeing it, I can offer like $1,000. And when I go in and I take a look at it, if it's nicer, we can see where it comps.
    24:19
    And we can see if it makes sense. If it's not as nice, we can adjust accordingly. He's like, no. He's like, you're starting too high. Just offer like $200 and I'll take it. Now, as appealing as that sounds to me, I just can't. bring myself to do that because I think at some point that's going to come around and bite me. Yeah. So I said, give them the thousand dollar offer as is and tell them that if he wants more information, I'm happy to come see it and we can figure out what price makes sense for both of us because that's a thousand dollars he's not going to have regardless. And I don't feel like I'm totally taking advantage of somebody. So long story short, he gives me the number. He goes,
    24:53
    yeah, he's expecting your call. He give him a call tomorrow at lunch. I give the guy a call at lunchtime. I'm like, hey, what's going on? My buddy is telling me that you're moving, you got a pinball machine, and I just wanted to let you know I'll give you a $1,000 site unseen. I said, because honestly, if it was in completely horrible condition, I could part it out and almost make all my money back at that point. Oh, yeah. Right? I said, but if you think it's a nice condition, let me come over, let me take a look at it, and then let's kind of see what makes sense for both of us, and we'll take it from there. He's like, yeah. He goes, well, that's great.
    25:25
    He goes, I've been looking on eBay, and these things are going for like $6,000, $7,000. And I was like, you know what? Well thank you so much for letting me know that right away because eBay is not the Kelly Blue Book of pinball machines The reason you seeing these things for sale at because they haven sold It just so frustrating because I trying to help and almost trying to educate a seller You don't have that opportunity to do so because they're running eBay as a price comp. It's just so ridiculous, man. And it's just really – I just want to take a step back and you're going to think I'm crazy, man.
    26:01
    I'm thinking right now, I just want to buy all five of Jersey Jack pinball's machines. And be done? And be done with my collection for now. Dude, I don't blame you. I'm totally thinking about just doing that. And that's it. I'm scared at what I have invested right now, in all honesty. I don't want to buy or sell or anything. I just want to get five Jersey Jacks and be done for a while. But go ahead. I didn't mean to cut you off. I'm scared at how crazy the prices are going, and they don't seem to be slowing down.
    26:31
    Dude, part of me is like, man, I could cash out of this sucker and wait until the bottom drops out one day, if it ever drops out. Or I'll be so far behind. Is it market saturation? Yada, yada, yada. Dude, it's completely out of control. It is. And you know what? Yeah, eBay pricing. Dude, you and I, when we first started talking, we were friends. Some guy in Rockford had a Data East Simpsons pinball for three grand. We all laughed at him. I'm like, Simpsons pinball party? No, no, no, no, no, no. Simpsons, the original 1990s pinball by Data East. Right.
    27:01
    Yeah, okay. The Simpsons pinball. Yeah, he ended up there for three grand. At three grand, I was like, is that Simpsons pinball party? Party, yeah. And, dude, I mean, I guess it just goes to show, if you sit long enough, prices will increase. Well, how long do you have to wait for a Gilligan's Island to get to $10,000? And a day. Plus one. $10,800. Listen, again, this episode, I'm scratching my head. like things that make you go, I don't understand what's happening. People are trying to capitalize on what they think is this resurgence
    27:32
    and this retro comeback, and everything's hot right now. You're seeing arcade games listed for ridiculous prices. You're seeing these pinball machines for ridiculous prices. Even people that are inside the pinball circle of trust are selling mods for thousands of dollars that are unobtainium. You've got people that are remaking these mods that they either can or they can't. It's just it's it's grown way out of control in my opinion. On Friday, I saw an ad locally guy looking for the Red Smoke Witch mod on Wizard of Oz.
    28:05
    And, you know, I want this mod ASAP. Name your price. I'm thinking thousand dollars. In the ad. It says name your price. Name your price. And I was just thinking thousand dollars sounds good right now. Now realize. It would have been nice if the guy locally said, how about ten thousand eight hundred and I'll throw in a Gilligan's Island pin on the table. That would have been a great way to sell the game. A little extra incentive. Yeah, but I was just like, dude, are you kidding me?
    28:37
    Hey, listen, I don't want to take my mod off of my game. I love my game. It has the direct screen printed cabinet graphics, whatever, dude. I'm not going to go taking parts off of mine. even at a thousand dollars i wouldn't sell mine because i like my game that much right i mean taking stuff off of a machine kind of because i i see people that sell like machines that have pin stadium on it right like pin stadium is a solid mod yeah and it's like well you can buy the machine or you can buy it without the pin stadium and take like what is it two three hundred
    29:08
    bucks off like sell sell it with the stuff in there you know if you can that being said i think I think pin stadium pin sound in color DMD are the three mods that you can, if you put your money into those mods on a machine, you can almost get those back. I think you lose 50 bucks a mod on, on either one of those potential. Yeah. But, and there are, there are other mods that are out there that are like that Mike D mod that red smoke, a wizard of Oz mod. There are some exclusive mods out there that also command a high price,
    29:39
    but I think you're safe with, I guess, taking those off the machine. if a buyer doesn't want them. Because you're going to get money back. Not all of your money back, but you'll get some of it back. Well, dude, seeing that ad was like... Oh, my gosh. Were there pin stadiums or color D&D on the Gilligan's Island? There was a color D&D. There was. Whatever, dude. It's still Gilligan's Island. If you take off the color D&D, that's probably worth like $1,200. $1,400. Right. Oh, it's $1,400. All right. You know, whatever. Dude, here. Last thing I'm going to say. So because my Wizard of Oz has the Red Smoke Witch mod, does that mean that my game now is worth an extra $1,000, and I have an $8,000 Wizard of Oz now
    30:13
    because of this mod that can't be had. Whatever, man. It could be. Rant over. Dude, I'm so taken aback on what just happened here. I don't even know if we have time to get into our regular discussion. Did we even go into the pinball marketing stuff, or did we save that for next week? We're coming up on 30 minutes into the episode. We still have to hit industry buzz. We still have drain it or save it, and then we've got some closing. So this is what we're going to do. This is what we're going to do, if it's okay with you. I don't like going over an hour on these episodes. No, I don't either. And we just kind of ranted there a little bit.
    30:44
    So let's save the pinball marketing conversation because we had some pretty well thought out things for each of the newer companies and the existing companies. Let's skip that today. We'll follow up with a little drain it or save it, and then we'll close it out with whatever the hell that we want to do. I like it. All right. It's time for this week's edition of Drain It or Save It. Drain It or Save It is brought to you by Lermods.com. offering you quality custom pinball mods and lighting for your pinball machine. L-E-R-M-O-D-S.
    31:15
    Visit Lermods.com today. So what we're going to do right now, Bill, we're going to drain it or save it. The first item up for discussion here, printed decals to cover up playfield wear spots. And that means if you've got a place in your, you know, part in your playfield where it's kind of worn down to the wood, there are some decals that are offered that lay right over the playfield, right? Yeah. They cover up those wear spots. They, for the most part, try to look seamlessly into the design of the play field. And it kind of makes it seem like it went through a little bit of a mini restoration, but it was like a topical decal.
    31:49
    Trade it or save it? On a 20-year-old machine, save it. You know, I mean, no harm in covering up something instead of doing a play field swap when it's something that's not easy to get. Yeah, I'm going to save it, too, because anytime I'm not a play field restoration specialist, I can pick through the flaws of a play field, but I'm not going to go in there with acrylic paints and clear coat and fix that stuff. So if I've got a decal that's a respectable quality, easy fix, for instance, maybe like a Shadow Sanctum style. Yes. Yes, I'm all about that.
    32:19
    So we're going to go ahead and we're going to save that. No, it's a three-year-old game. No. That's on the manufacturer. I wanted to clarify that because there are situations that that applies. I agree. The second item, we're going to go into lollipop rails. Train it or save it. Lollipop rails extend from each side of the pinball machine where it comes down above the playfield to keep the playfield channel in place, but then it extends around the flipper buttons to offer a little bit of extra protection around that artwork. Most machines that come out of factory just have the straight rails with the buttons exposed with the lollipop rails.
    32:54
    It's an addition that you can add to kind of go around those buttons for extra protection. Some people like the cosmetics. Some people don't like the cosmetics. I don't think you can argue the protection, but lollipop rails that weren't intended, drain it or save it, Bill? I'm going to drain it. What? Yeah. Why? I like original, man. Okay, all right. Does the Gilligan's Island have a $10,800? It has lollipop rails on it. Does it have lollipop? No, dude, I'm being a smartass. No, but you know what? In all honesty, man, I've seen lollipop rails on some games that it didn't come on,
    33:27
    and to me it just looks funky. If you're going to put them on, dude, just do a new set of decals and be done. you know okay well if you get into a screen printed cabinet where you want to keep the integrity of the artwork is it a band-aid to cover up artwork that's already worn or is it a preventative measure i think a lollipop rail which i'm going to say by the way is an interesting way to protect artwork that otherwise might be ruined which is also reversible so you can still take that lollipop rail off and you can put screw holes that you've now put into the cabinet well
    33:59
    Well, you don't need to necessarily put the screws into the lollipops area, though. Okay, but here. Because I had lollipops on, I think it's Sega X-Files. You did, and that's exactly what I'm thinking of. Right. And because of that, dude, you knew underneath that it was protected because that's why you put it in. You put the screws in. But, dude, think of this. I didn't put the screws in. Not you, the guy that originally opened it. Which was unfortunate because it was already protected underneath. And it was beautiful. Yes. That said, dude, when you see a set of Cliffys on a Medieval Madness, an original Medieval Madness, Do you think that it's pristine under there, or do you think it's just covering up the wear that's already there?
    34:30
    Yeah, the particular collector is absolutely going to want to see that area with or without the lollipop rails. But I am a supporter of the lollipop rails because you can take them off, assuming you don't drill into the cabinet in that area of the flipper button. Eh, I'm going to stand by my decision. Well, all right. All hate mail you can send to Bill Webb. Well, just Special Winlet Pinball Podcast. Attention, Bill Webb. Yeah. Special Winlet Pinball Podcast at gmail.com. we need to actually go through and do some housekeeping on the mail that we've been getting. But we're going to round it out with this.
    35:00
    And this is kind of interesting. Topic number three. Oh, what the? Drain it or save it, right? Excessive swearing during pinball podcasts. Do you drain that or do you save that? I drain it. I don't need all that. You drain it? I do drain it, man. I want to be able to understand what somebody's saying. I don't need adjective upon an adjective on expletives. Okay. So, I mean, do you clean it up for this podcast? I mean, do you kind of sway away from what you would truly say?
    35:30
    Or is this the true Bill Webber? I do clean it up for the podcast. I do work in the construction industry. So, you know, we do know some colorful verbiage. But, you know. And appreciation of women walking on sidewalks? No, I would never do that. No, you wouldn't. No, I'm a family guy. You're married. So, no, but, you know, I don't mind swearing. but the excessive swearing and i can't understand you know if you have one sentence and in the 20 words there's eight swears yeah i can't do this isn't an nwa song okay i can't do it okay i get
    36:06
    it i get it so you're gonna drain it yes all right i am gonna save this and i'm gonna tell you why no i i'm gonna save this in the reason i'm gonna save it is because we've seen so much whining back and forth about people being offended by things, right? And about making somebody feel like they can't, what's the word I'm looking for? Be genuine? Be real with themselves? They can't express themselves.
    36:38
    Yes. So why are you limiting me? Why are you offended by every little thing? And it's ironic because a lot of the times the people that are mad because people are acting offended are offended by those people that are offended. So like, it absolutely makes the most sense. I'm going to save this topic and I'm going to tell you why, because if somebody legitimately is, is pinball podcasting and they feel like they need to express themselves with expletives. Great. You know what? Who am I to say that that's incorrect?
    37:09
    Now I'm no prude, so to speak. I have no problem voicing my opinion and throwing out expletives. Now, I do absolutely clean it up for this show, and it's simply because we've gotten feedback that said, you know what, I appreciate that you kind of keep it PG. Absolutely. And, you know, I don't feel scared about my kids driving in the car, and that's cool. Is that what I'm aspiring to do? In the beginning, no, but now I think it makes more sense as we get more people involved into pinball and the young and the youth. Like, I can go a podcast without dropping F-bombs, and that doesn't mean that anybody that does that is doing it incorrectly.
    37:44
    it's just the way that I'm approaching it. Now, where I do have a problem is this, where it's a forced issue and you feel as if for you to get listenership, you have to increase the amount of expletives because you're following like this little dynamic that you think is going to attract people to your show. I think it's a big swing and a miss. And that's caused me not to listen to a podcast or two. When it's when it's when it's forced, when it's forced, when it's a genuine podcast. I mean, there's, you know, one that comes to mind that, you know, we love her
    38:15
    dearly and, you know, but she's not. And I am not. I am not referring to her. Oh, I know you're not referring to her. Dude, it's Miss Penn, dude. Who doesn't love Miss Penn? I do enjoy Miss Penn She not over the top with it I mean she does use you know a couple of choice words i used to think that maybe she was over the top of it but now what i hearing lately it i don think she's over time but you know what that's just how she expressed herself her and dr pin we've got genuine but that's their genuine a lot of respect for them oh absolutely we are genuine but what i think i'm seeing now and i could be wrong and if you think i'm wrong you can contact us at
    38:47
    special when lit pinball podcast at gmail.com it's like i'm seeing that there's like this open window that some podcasts think that they're going to take advantage of. It's like, well, nobody wants to take advantage of the shock factor, the shock jock factor of pinball podcasting. And there are some that have been doing it for a while and they haven't gotten away with it. They've mastered it and it makes sense for their show. But there's too many followers and not enough leaders. Are we leaders? Absolutely not. But are we providing content that we back ourselves up on? Absolutely we are. and do we have to do so by dropping some F-bombs every third or fourth sentence?
    39:23
    No. Is it our style? No. Do we complain because that's somebody else's style? No. But do I have to listen to that show? No. I don't. Dude, there's room for everybody. So, I mean, that's not really what we're saying. But, you know, yeah, for us it's just our personal choice. That's not what we want to limit ourselves to. I think you talked about it last week. When something feels coerced or feels scripted, it just doesn't come out genuine. And when there's just too much of a thing, it just loses its effectiveness and it just sounds silly to me. All right.
    39:53
    So let's go over the list. Let's go over the list. Drained it or save it. Printed decals to cover up play field wear spots. Saved it. I saved it also. Lollipop rails, which are extended flipper button wear protection. Bill drained it. I saved it. Yep. And excessive swearing during pinball podcasts. Bill drained it. I saved it because of the, just for free speech and to do what you want to do, but I don't have to listen to it. I'm draining it for me as far as a listening thing. Yeah. You know, I don't care what someone does. That's true. And that's the essence of drain it or save it.
    40:23
    Dude, when someone's complaining about someone's orientation or preferences, listen, dude, I don't care. As long as you're not hurting anyone or doing anything to harm kids, I don't care what you do. Do whatever you want. But I don't need to be subject to it. Well, this is something that I've noticed lately. and if i think if you listen back maybe two or three months ago i talked about all of the pinball podcasts that were on my my uh podcast addict app yeah on my phone and and i thought as like a pinball podcaster it's kind of my job to kind of listen to all these shows whether or not i supported
    40:58
    the shows or not i wanted to see what's going on what's being discussed i mean part of it is making sure that we're not being portrayed in the wrong uh and we can defend ourselves if need be and and quite honestly there were a couple instances that came out in some podcasts where i thought it was ridiculous i didn't think it was important enough to even reply so we just kind of let it go yeah um but i want to make sure i'm on top of a little bit of everything right i think we both do but now as we're into like month 10 of our pinball podcasting you're gonna notice a couple things you know we're not following all the lead stories of the news ourselves in fact
    41:29
    we've gone out to look for correspondents to help cover the news because i i think somebody that can cover a manufacturer on a weekly basis is going to do a better job of bringing up topical conversation than us trying to spread ourselves thin over like eight or nine manufacturers. So that was an adjustment that we made. Number two, with me depleting the amount of podcasts that I'm listening to personally, it's just opened up a lot more time for me to focus on other things. And most of it now is kind of life stuff, which nobody wants to hear about on a pinball podcast. We're going to talk about pinball, but it's also allowed me additional time to focus on the pinball
    42:01
    streaming and that kind of stuff so it's a delicate balance but i've pruned the bush so to speak on my pinball podcast app list and you know without getting very specific i probably went from like 11 or 12 podcasts down to like three or four yep and uh and i feel like i'm not really skipping a beat so to speak i feel like i'm just as informed on what's going on with the people that i think are important and impact me yeah versus what i think is out there that's going to be impactful You're going to listen to who you can relate to and who brings you the best content in your eyes.
    42:34
    You're absolutely right. And I want to say this too. So the podcast that I'm not listening to now because I don't connect with the podcast, I still feel like I connect with the individuals behind the podcast. It's just I'm not necessarily driven to listen to those shows. And I'm sure that there's a reciprocating thing that goes on with Special and Lit. I know for a fact we don't appeal to a lot of people because there are things that we don't do that people want to hear on a podcast. I swear. Well, we can swear. I was being funny. Right. But, I mean, we're not going to go out of our way and call out a manufacturer disrespectfully.
    43:08
    But we can absolutely talk about something that we're not happy about. But we're going to be respectful about it. Respectfully doing that. Yeah. Okay. So, I mean, that's the difference between our podcast and some other podcasts. And I want to address something else that had happened. Pre-Jone. If you don't mind. And this was on another podcast last week. And this podcast had hinted around the fact that our podcast cannot speak negatively about some manufacturers. And Jersey Jack Pinball was cited in regards to Willy Wonka because if we had done so, we would not be given exclusivity as far as coverage or that manufacturer and its employees would not come on our podcast.
    43:54
    and I listened to this and I had to rewind it and I listened to it again. So did I. And I rewinded it and I listened to it again and I thought it was, I thought it was unfortunate for a couple of reasons. One, it's just not true. We have the ability to have a respectful disagreement with all these manufacturers without the fear of them cutting off ties. Do we live or die by the sword? Absolutely not. because if we go out and disrespect a manufacturer,
    44:26
    are they less likely to want to come onto our show? Potentially. But you know what? We respectfully talk about our differences. And guess what? Nothing in this life is perfect, dude. Things are going to happen. Playfields are going to screw up. Cabinets are going to whatever. And when that happens, I don't mind talking about it. Dude, everyone goes through things. You show me one person that's perfect, I'm going to show you a compulsive liar. I think one thing, when we first started in podcasting and we got in, And we're like, we want to be a podcast that does this, that, and the other thing. And then Canadian Spinball Podcast, Chris Calouris, called us out and said, well, you know what?
    44:57
    You guys are essentially saying that you don't want to be me. So why can't you guys kind of just be men and call out this podcast? And I will say that I'm specifically talking about, and maybe I took this the wrong way, Chris. And if I did, please let me know because there's no harm intended here. But by you saying that there are some podcasts out there that won't tell you their true feelings about Willy Wonka because they're concerned that the guests that they've had on the show won't come back, I think it's an unfair thing for you to say.
    45:30
    I mean, I will say that myself and Bill, we listen to your podcast. We don't agree with everything that you say, but we respect your opinion. But for you to kind of put yourself out there, and if you weren't referring to us, I apologize, but this is kind of the way that I took it. For you to kind of say to us and talk for us about how we're acting because of what we are in fear of could not be more inaccurate if you break it down. Because I still back up my Willy Wonka sentiments. And the difference that I think that we're having between myself and maybe you, Bill, and then Chris, is that Chris has a vision of where he wants this game to go.
    46:05
    And that's Kaneda. Yeah. and as he is realizing now that this is not the mode-based game, the adventure of going through the factory as the code sits right now, he's starting to have second thoughts about his initial reaction, which is fine. I appreciate that, and I respect that. The difference being I don't have those expectations in regards to I wasn't looking for what he was looking for. So by me waiting idle and see where Joe Katz takes this code doesn't mean that I'm softening my approach to critiquing the pin.
    46:36
    it means that at a .60 code, I want to see where it goes. Now, if anybody listened to our Making of Willy Wonka podcast, you will already have known this is not a mode-based game. Joe Katz, he didn't want to have a mode-based game. He wants to change it up a little bit. I want to see what Joe does with the code. For me right now, talking about movie assets and all this kind of thing, okay, great, you can't go wrong by adding more scenes and that sort of thing, but I'm happy with where it's at right now. So, again, and I'll let you talk, Bill.
    47:07
    Please don't speak for me in my podcast in telling me that I am not being truthful because I want to make sure that Joe Katz or Jersey Jack comes on my show. That's not the reason. Those guys are going to come on my show because they respect the fact that I'm being honest and I'm articulating my responses and I'm being respectful for their efforts. If I'm overlooking into this and you met somebody else, Chris, I totally apologize. We've had conversations, you know, off the mics. friends regardless so right i have no problem with you personally i just want to clarify for those
    47:38
    that might have thought that was a little bit of a backhanded reply or response to what we're doing here it couldn't that's that does not pertain to us yeah okay no it's you know what man it's going to be what it's going to be but yeah i mean we we try and just keep it honest on how we feel you know but that doesn't mean we're crapping on people at the the first sign of uh something troublesome because you know what man anytime you ever run into a situation no one's perfect no nobody's perfect nothing is infallible i'm being patient here i'm not looking for a payoff on the code before the game's on the line if that makes any sense so i need to sit down
    48:11
    i need to relax i see i need to see where the code goes and you know what if it doesn't go anywhere except where it's at right now i'm still i'm still in on willy wonka anything else is a bonus if any if anybody looks at the jersey jack and i'm not going to show the company uh because they have their shortcomings too just like every single other pinball manufacturer does but the one thing that I think is important to look into with the code aspect of Jersey Jack pinball is that they consistently address the code and you have consistent updates. You've got Hobbit that's over 2.0 code.
    48:41
    And Hobbit was a game that was criticized for its code and because of code changes over the years has become a favorite of code. I think you're seeing like a bigger effort now with Stern pinball, bringing people on board to do code updates. You're seeing more code updates out of Stern pinball than I can ever remember. Oh, yeah. You're always seeing games being updated. And for those that are in the home environment and you're looking for those games and the longevity and you're looking for games that are going to stay interesting and articulate or intricate, rather, code updates are like a godsend.
    49:13
    And Deadpool could not have transformed more since the day I started owning it to what it is now if it wasn't for the code. You can't go in. You can't have George Gomez say, well, you know, we got an update. We're going to redesign the play field. Yep. And we're going to do this. No, you can't. And you know what? Maybe you can come up with an art package where you got like a new trans light or some head decals and make it into a Catwoman. But it doesn't change the game. But you know what changes the game? It's the code. But I did want to address that because I thought that anybody that might have speculated, especially when it's under the political control of the pinball companies and we can't speak our minds in fear of guests coming in.
    49:50
    It doesn't it doesn't make any sense. so hopefully I went ahead and shot a hole into that theory. Normally we would go into industry buzz and we would hear from our correspondents, Dr. John and our new correspondent, Ryan Quader. We're going to save those segments for next week and we're going to end this show because what we're going to do after this on Memorial Day, Monday, is we're going to stream Oktoberfest for the last time for Flippin' Up Pinball Channel. Flippin' Up Pinball Channel, if you haven't gone to Twitch
    50:21
    and typed in flip letter N out to pinball and followed us. Go ahead and follow us because we stream these games every single Monday, and tonight's going to be one of the last nights to do that. Whirlwind, honestly, it's all together. Just waiting on a couple last pieces to come in. So once it is, you guys will see some pictures. You'll see some shock and awe on the Whirlwind. Yeah, the Miss Congeniality. The world's second nicest Whirlwind ever. Yeah. So, but yeah, I mean, other than that, everybody, I want to send a shout out to anyone that listens that's served in any branch of the military or who has family that has served, lost loved ones.
    51:00
    Both my parents served. So, you know, heart goes out with you guys and, you know, a big thank you for all that you've done. Absolutely. And on that note, everybody have a good weekend. Everybody have a good morning, good afternoon, good evening. and don't forget to take some time out of your day and play some pinball. So long, everybody.