Changing Landscape

This Week in Pinball·article·analyzed·Dec 5, 2025

Analysis

claude-haiku-4-5-20251001 · $0.037

TL;DR

John Borg discusses designing two flagship 2025 Stern games under extreme time pressure while balancing accessibility and depth.

Summary

John Borg, legendary Stern Pinball designer, discusses his extraordinary workload in 2024-2025, simultaneously designing Star Wars: Fall of the Empire and The Walking Dead Remastered after Metallica Remastered. He details his design philosophy emphasizing accessibility for casual players alongside deep rules for competitors, mechanical innovations like the Force save feature, and technical challenges including Spike 3 platform constraints, licensing approvals, and playfield geometry adjustments.

Key Claims

Metallica Remastered released October 2024, Star Wars development started December 2024, Walking Dead Remastered project added early January 2025—both shipped in 2025 back-to-back
high confidence · Borg states timeline explicitly: 'Metallica came out in October. Uh, we showed it at Expo, and then uh, November passed... And then in December, I found out that I was going to be working on a Star Wars license... And then sometime in December, early January, I found out that they were going to remaster The Walking Dead.'
Borg simultaneously designed two complete game prototypes, handling dual licensing processes and mechanical engineering for both games simultaneously
high confidence · 'So everything I did, I did twice. Um, you know, I built two sets of prototypes, uh, you know, two sets of licensing issues, you know, all the way through from the beginning to the end.'
Star Wars is designed to be highly accessible to new/casual players—Borg claims it's the first game where a player can hit nearly every shot within 30 seconds of plunging
high confidence · 'this is the first game I think I've ever made where I could plunge the ball and I could probably hit every shot within the first thirty seconds.'
Death Star ball lock rejection issue has a fix: new bracket with larger opening mounting to front of ball lock trough, tested on recent production runs
high confidence · 'Yeah, we have a kit. It's a simple bracket that mounts on the front of the uh, the Death Star ball lock trough... we made uh, we made a bunch of Star Wars games uh, last week or the week before, and we used this new bracket... they shot like butter.'
AT-AT originally designed with motorized head-leaning mechanism but Disney required guns on front of machine; George Gomez added pivoting chin bracket to protect ball from head impact
high confidence · 'Disney said, "You got to—you got to put the guns on." So I thought those things are going to break off... So we uh, we just had the thing—I I just—I moved it... George was looking at it... he took the front plate where the neck was mounted, and he made it pivot.'
Spike 3 platform required significant redesign work: back panel moved half-inch to function as stiffener, steel rails replace vinyl-coated wood, eliminating certain ramp edge treatments

Notable Quotes

“Metallica came out in October... And then in December, I found out that I was going to be working on a Star Wars license... And then sometime in December, early January, I found out that they were going to remaster The Walking Dead. So everything I did, I did twice.”
John Borg @ early in interview — Explains the extraordinary compressed timeline and dual-project workload that defined 2024-2025
“This is the first game I think I've ever made where I could plunge the ball and I could probably hit every shot within the first thirty seconds.”
John Borg @ mid-interview design philosophy section — Core design philosophy for Star Wars: emphasizing accessibility and rewarding casual play
“I was told once a long time ago, 'It's better to make a good game that works great than a great game that works good.'”
John Borg @ AT-AT discussion section — Summarizes Borg's design philosophy prioritizing reliability and functionality over spectacular but fragile mechanics
“Yeah, we have a kit. It's a simple bracket that mounts on the front of the uh, the Death Star ball lock trough, and it has a bigger opening in it... we made a bunch of Star Wars games uh, last week or the week before, and we used this new bracket, and they shot like butter.”
John Borg @ mid-interview technical solutions section — Confirms Death Star rejection fix with testing validation on recent production runs
“I didn't even vacation last summer... Everybody last summer told me that by the time I got on vacation, I was going to be sitting in my backyard with my shorts and a t-shirt... We got our snow. We got ten inches of snow.”
John Borg @ opening discussion of workload — Personal testament to the severity of compressed schedule and lack of break
“the back panel moves in a half inch because the back panel is now a stiffener support for the playfield. We used to put a wood rail there and put the back panel on the back of the playfield... So all the ramp trimming had to be redone.”
John Borg @ Spike 3 platform discussion — Explains specific mechanical constraints of Spike 3 requiring extensive redesign work

Entities

John Borgperson Star Wars: Fall of the Empiregame The Walking Dead Remasteredgame Metallica RemasteredgameStern PinballcompanyGeorge Gomezperson

Signals

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business_signal: Pro vs Premium/LE tier differentiation requires significant design concessions: AT-AT motor removed from Pro to meet cost target, creating two substantially different playfield experiences
high · Borg: 'like in Star Wars, I took the motor—the motor out of the AT-AT... in the Pro Star Wars game... it's just—it's upright and it stays that way. It doesn't move.'
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design_philosophy: AT-AT mechanical design constrained by Disney licensing requirement to include guns on front; original Borg design with motorized head-leaning exposed to ball collision; resolved through George Gomez pivoting chin bracket solution
high · Borg: 'Disney said, "You got to—you got to put the guns on."... I thought those things are going to break off... George was looking at it... he took the front plate where the neck was mounted, and he made it pivot.'
?
design_philosophy: Borg's core principle: 'It's better to make a good game that works great than a great game that works good'—reliability and durability prioritized over spectacular but fragile mechanics (evidenced by AT-AT constraints)
high · 'I was told once a long time ago, "It's better to make a good game that works great than a great game that works good." [Applied to AT-AT decision to prevent head breakage]'
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design_philosophy: Borg explicitly designed Star Wars for accessibility-first approach: playable by casual/new players within 30 seconds of plunge, all shots reachable and rewarding, contrasting with traditional depth-first competitive design
high · 'this is the first game I think I've ever made where I could plunge the ball and I could probably hit every shot within the first thirty seconds... people are going to—when you're aiming at something, sometimes you miss, and you hit the shot right next to it, and you feel rewarded.'

Transcript

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0:08

Thanks for tuning in to Loser Kid Pinball podcast. I am Josh RP. [music] With me, my co- captain Scott Larson Scott Larson and Scott. Today is an awesome day. I'm and Scott. Today is an awesome day. I'm excited. Two games have released in the last like two months. We got Walking Dead. We got Star Wars Fate of the Empire. Both amazing games. Fall of the Empire. Fall of the Empire. Fall of the Empire. Fall of the Empire. Tomato. Tomato tomato tomato. What if Tomato. Tomato tomato tomato. What if you're going to buy these games, Scott? Where are you getting them from? You know, Zach and Nicole at Flipping You know, Zach and Nicole at Flipping Out Pinball. Um, they've helped us out. We're great. And I I just got a Jaws 70 for my buddy. So, uh, if you want to get it, reach out to them. They're always good help. Exactly. And one more thing before we Exactly. And one more thing before we get to our guest. If you see sitting next to me, I have got this beautiful earth shaker guitar that I had custom made from top to bottom from a gentleman called Daniel Clark with Sithar Guitars. Amazing amazing quality. I can't wait to get We're going to have Daniel on to talk more about it. Seriously, this guitar is amazing. If you like guitars and you like pinball machines, it's a no-brainer. Process takes a little bit, so be comfortable with a little bit of a wait, but I promise you it is worth the wait. So, if you want more information, hit us up. We'll send you in the right direction. Scott, will you introduce our guest for us today? We have legendary designer John Borg. We have legendary designer John Borg. Uh, single-handedly, he's the one when we ask people who can design a pinball machine and assemble it from bolts to finished product. They always say John knows what he's doing. John's been in the industry literally for years. and he he did double duty this year uh coming out like last year he did the remaster of Metallica and this year he also has two that came out back toback. I have no idea how this guy did it because we have Fall of the Empire and we have The Walking Dead. So John, we appreciate you squeezing us in because I I think your snorkel is still below water right now. Yep. I am uh I'm out of game jail now. Yep. I am uh I'm out of game jail now. I'm off the line with the startup for Walking Dead and uh and I figured I'd get in touch with you guys and come on the show. I appreciate that, man, because we we've I appreciate that, man, because we we've been working back and forth. It seems like se September. I know that we had originally talked about doing interview before anything was revealed. It's just it's been chaos and and like we had said you'd listen to our episodes and stuff like that. You're like, "It's true. I've been I've been neck deep in work for months now." And I guess really the question is how much time did you have from after finishing up Metallica to starting Star Wars? And well, Metallica came out in October. Uh well, Metallica came out in October. Uh we showed it at Expo and then uh November passed. I was out on the line a little bit in November with Metallica. And then in December, I found out that I was going to be working on a Star Wars license, but I wasn't sure how much of how much of the story I was going to get. Um, so I I started out with just with a piece of one of the movies and we were going to try to make a game out of that. Um, turned out that uh they negotiated uh the whole trilogy. So I was able to, you know, use anything I I I wanted from all, you know, all three movies. Um, I was very happy about that. Um, and then sometime in December, early January, I found out that they were going to remaster The Walking Dead. So uh so I took both projects on at the same time. So everything I did I did twice. Um you know I built two sets of prototypes uh you know two sets of licensing issues you know all the way through from the beginning to the end. Um uh it was uh it was a lot of work and uh and it was a lot of you know days and nights. Um, I didn't even vacation last summer. So, you know, and then when we got to Expo, I thought, "Oh, I'll get a little break right after Expo." And then, you know, so after Expo, you know, we we launched Star Wars, so I was on the floor for that. And then I was also finishing up Walking Dead. So, uh, so I'm just now out of game jail. Everybody last summer told me that they were that by the time I got on vacation, I was going to be sitting in my backyard with my shorts and a t-shirt and sitting in a lawn chair with a drink with an umbrella with 4 inches of snow on top of it. We got our We got our snow. We got 10 inches of snow. Oh, wow. Oh, wow. Dang. We just Dang. We just It was crazy. It was crazy. We just got dusted here. But We just got dusted here. But it was a lot of work to to to get them it was a lot of work to to to get them both done. Um and uh and they're both beautiful games. Um I'm uh I'm waiting for my uh waiting for my Star Wars. Um it took me a while before I could even get some time to just go upstairs and order one. So, I'm looking forward to getting that. Um I'm going to set that up. I'm I'm setting up another little area in my basement uh for some more games because like a lot of you guys um I'm running out of room. So uh so I've got a a utility room in my So uh so I've got a a utility room in my basement that I've cleaned out and uh painted it satin black and put some really beautiful cracked ice looking tile on the floor. So I made a little miniame room and just put a few games a couple of my older games in there. So here's the question. When you have So here's the question. When you have something like Star Wars, okay, this is a couple things. This is okay, this is a couple things. This is an iconic title. You know, Star Wars, this is the one thing that people when they start getting into pinball, they're like, "Oh, there's a Star Wars game." Well, okay, it's been done many ways okay, it's been done many ways by multiple. This is, I think, like the seventh version of a Star Wars game. And so when you approach the design on this, when you approach the design on this, how do you say okay this is something how do you say okay this is something that everybody knows but I want to bring this sort of approach to it. So how do you approach designing something? Um well actually uh some of the things Um well actually uh some of the things that I brought to the game were things that I that I did before. I definitely wanted to uh shoot and open up a Death Star and lock balls inside for a multiball. And then if you look at the game, the way the inserts, the large rectangle inserts for all the modes are, you know, with all the characters on them. Um, I used large rectangles and I set the characters upright with a with a translucent area around them. Um, that was, you know, so the character that's that that is screened over the insert has got a blocker behind it so light doesn't shine through it, but there's like a big halo around the character or, you know, parts of the insert light around the character. And that kind of came from the u from the 92 Star Wars game. Um if you look at the two, you can definitely tell that you know that we that we borrowed that again. Um wanted to blow off the Death Star. Wanted to do something with the ADAT. Um I think if I didn't put the Sarlac pit in the game, it probably would have been R2-D2 back there doing something locking balls or, you know, moving kind of like the original game had. Um, but I wanted to make the game mainly I wanted to make the game uh very approachable. Um, you know, a lot of newbies will play it and you know, they'll hit they'll that's the this is the first game I think I've ever made where I could plunge the ball and I could probably hit every shot within the first 30 seconds. And if I can do that, you know, people are going to when you're aiming at something sometimes you miss and you hit the shot right next to it and and you feel rewarded. Um, you're not breakicking off targets too much in the game. you're you're pretty much making shots and that center shot up the middle. Um the hyperspace ramp um it's really fast, gets the ball right back to your flipper and it's really easy to repeat over and over again and people love that. I think that's what people liked about the first Star Wars game is you could shoot that center ramp really easily and you got to see it go around the loop and come back to your right flipper. Um and I think people really liked that. It was it was easy and it was rewarding. And somebody that doesn't play pinball, they're generally shooting up the middle and they would hit that ramp and and they're feeling rewarded like, "Wow, I did something. Wow, I got to do that again." You know, wow, I can do it several times in a row. This is really cool. Um, and the combos were great on the game, too. Um, you know, like when I plunge the ball, ball comes to the left flipper, I I shoot it up the right ramp and it comes back and then I shoot the Death Star to get the thing open like right right from the get-go. Um, and uh, but I just wanted to make the game really approachable for people. Um, and you know, and and also that the rules on the game are really deep, you know, for your your hardcore players. There's a there's there's a lot there. Um, Ray and Andrew crushed it. Um, they really did a great job. Do you feel like you kind of came full Do you feel like you kind of came full circle with your first game for Data East being Star Wars and 30 years later it's Star Wars? 30 years later, I get to do it again. 30 years later, I get to do it again. Yeah. Uh, yeah. That was that was that was it Uh, yeah. That was that was that was it was a lot of fun. Do you is there anything that you wish Do you is there anything that you wish that you'd done on the first one that you're like I've got to do this in this one? Uh yeah, a real adat. I would have liked Uh yeah, a real adat. I would have liked to put a real adat in the first one. I ran out of real estate. If we would have made it a wide body, I could have put had an addat in the first one. The LE should have had it fold foldable The LE should have had it fold foldable legs so the whole thing could if you destroyed it, the whole thing Oh, addat legs on the game. So cool. Oh, addat legs on the game. So cool. [laughter]

9:12

May maybe maybe that's uh the accessories package. You can buy addat legs for the the machine. There's a modder out there that's now There's a modder out there that's now going to take that idea and run with it. You know it face. So you kind of talked about a little bit So you kind of talked about a little bit of the designer process. I know when people think of designer they just kind of think of the playfield. And you talked about like dealing with licenses. What is kind of the typical process? Can you can you just kind of walk us through what a designer does when making a game? Everybody Everybody does it different. Everybody Everybody does it different. Um, uh, I've seen some guys that just sketch, you know, and just, you know, put a, you know, picture out there and hand it to a mechanical engineer and let them let them run with it. Um, I, you know, like, uh, uh, Dennis, um, makes a a a quarter scale model of a game out of foam core and lays out shots and he does beautiful he does a beautiful scale version, you know, downscaled version of the game. Um, I start out right at CAD and I just start laying out line work. Um, and then, you know, when I get done with it, it's all real. You know, I turn it over to a guy that that does solid works and they he just, you know, he does all the Z and extrudes all the parts and and makes the model. Um, you know, so it's all real and I, you know, and I go after everything. I mean, all the access holes for all the drop wires, for all the switches and everything. I just uh um when I when I cut the thing loose to a mechanical engineer, I I I want him to have very few find very few problems and uh and just be able to just just just go after it, you know, get a prototype up real quick. So, is it you that has to deal with the So, is it you that has to deal with the license or is it more of like a Gomez thing combination? Yeah. No. Uh generally um uh Jody uh Yeah. No. Uh generally um uh Jody uh George, Seth, um they'll deal with licensers mostly. Um uh you know usually when we start a project we'll get together like when we started Star Wars you know we got together and and we had a meeting uh you know with with uh with them um and it was the whole team um you know mechanical engineer myself uh you know the whole the whole design team um but as we're [clears throat] going through like you know approval process and whatnot you know I'll usually hear from you know Jody will call up and say you know this has got to change or the likeness of this person has to be altered. Um and and he works he works all that out. How how did that process kind of change How how did that process kind of change since you had to juggle two games at once? [laughter] Uh Uh how did you survive that process? how did you survive that process? You know, two team meetings a week, you You know, two team meetings a week, you know, one on Thursday, one on Friday. Um I just just kept pounding away. You know, I would work on one and then I'd you know, get tired and then I would go and switch over to the other one. Uh you know, and then, you know, to make a a sp a SAM game, you know, a Spike game. There there was a lot of work in that. Just some of the standards that we have adopted and uh like the back panel moves in a half an inch because the back panel is now a stiffener uh support for the playfield. We used to put a wood rail there and put the back panel on the back of the playfield. Um you know, so all the ramp trimming had to be redone. The wood rails that used to run up and down the sides of the playfields, those uh vinyl coated wood rails, uh we don't use those anymore. It's a steel rail. So I couldn't have any cutouts where there'd be like, you know, GI lights or or a rail maybe going right to the edge of the playfield. And I had that on Walking Dead in the upper right hand corner. So I was able to massage that a little bit, put a bigger radius on it, [clears throat] uh, open it up a little bit because that was kind of a hard shot. Um, uh, you know, so I, you know, I worked on a lot of the geometry, you know, to pull all that stuff in and change all the ramps. And then we did a lot of work on the uh on the game mechanically. We simplified the prison uh door mechanism. Uh the linkage, we simplified that and beefed it up a little bit. Um uh the uh the crossbow mechanism is driven with a cylindrical motor now instead of the little pear-shaped motor. The pear-shaped motors don't usually last as long as the cylindrical ones. um they're a little more expensive, but uh you know, the thing is going to work forever. Um and it has an encoder on it, so I can actually know exactly where the cannon is pointing, so that'll that'll come into play later, but we're not going to talk about that today. Oh, dang. A little a little taste. I Oh, dang. A little a little taste. I like that, though. Yeah. I I'm just hoping what you can do Yeah. I I'm just hoping what you can do is steal someone's uh crossbow and you can control it from somewhere else. That would be awesome. [laughter] You can mess mess with our crossbow. Bluetooth to the game. Oh yeah. [laughter] Hey, but you are bringing this up and so Hey, but you are bringing this up and so I want to I want to bring this in. One of the big things, this is the first game that is really pushing all the things that Spike 3 does and I I know it still doesn't have everything, but what are some of the things that you were able to do with the Spike 3 that you hadn't had in your toolbox before? Uh, well, it's it's faster and it's it's Uh, well, it's it's faster and it's it's more u robust. Um, uh, it's a lot faster. That's probably a better question for, you know, for Guido or Ray. Um, but the sound, uh, the sound is just Um, but the sound, uh, the sound is just amazing. The sound system, I just love it. Um, you know, when you buy the LE, you've got you got the the four speakers in the speaker panel instead of two. Um, and it just sounds great. Uh, well, when I was showing people Star Wars at Expo, I was telling them, I go, if you buy one of these, I go, you you know, you set the the volume level at 32 and it sounds great. And I go, if you put it up to 55, all your neighbors are going to know you have one. They're all going to come over. So, uh, uh, the biggest thing for me in the with the new system is is is this is the sound system. It's just it's beautiful. Well, and that bigger display, too, I Well, and that bigger display, too, I mean, that looks great. Yeah. And the Walking Dead music, the And the Walking Dead music, the soundtrack is it's always, you know, it's always been good. Um, you know, a lot of lot of really Um, you know, a lot of lot of really good levels of music. [snorts] [snorts] So, one thing looking at your playfield. So, one thing looking at your playfield. So, help me help me distinguish when you're designing and you have to say, "Okay, I need to have an LE premium playfield and I have to have a pro version of this playfield." How do you decide what elements to put in u to upscale? And which ones you're like, you know what, we can we can really try to streamline it for the location, which is, you know, what the Pro is typically designed for. Yeah. Sometimes I, you know, sometimes I Yeah. Sometimes I, you know, sometimes I start out laying out the, you know, I start out with the Pro. Um, usually I I start and and put all the bells and whistles in and [clears throat] I look at the at, you know, uh, the premium LE price and I, you know, I look at the I look at the numbers and figure out what I'm going to have to do to make it a pro. You know, like in Star Wars, I took the motor the motor out of the ADAT. Um, uh, so the ADAT and the the pro Star Wars game is just it's upright and it stays that way. it doesn't move. Um, you got to just look at what you've got and you got to look to, you know, to see where you have to get to, uh, you know, to a pro budget. So, one question I had, I I know that a So, one question I had, I I know that a couple people have asked recently, um, sometimes the the Death Star rejects and whatnot. Are you guys working on a a fix to remedy that or what's going on there? Yeah, we have a kit. It's a It's a Yeah, we have a kit. It's a It's a simple bracket that mounts on the front of the uh the Death Star ball lock trough and it has a bigger opening in it and it allows the ball to go in easier. And we just um while we were waiting for Walking Dead to come up um we made uh we made a bunch of Star Wars games uh last week or the week before and we used this new bracket and I went out and checked the games when they came up and they shot like butter. Um, it's uh it's just a bracket that mounts to the front of the the trough and it has a bigger opening in it. Uh, the only thing is you have to take off the plastics around it to get to the mounting screws to mount it, but once you put that thing in, um, it shoots like butter. Awesome. I don't Awesome. I don't I don't know. I don't know if that kit I don't know. I don't know if that kit is available yet, but I know it's going to be. If it's not already, it's going to be in the next few days. It It's It's coming. Awesome. I know. I know a lot of people Awesome. I know. I know a lot of people I've got one friend from that loves the he loves your new Star Wars. He loves all your games. I don't know if you know Tim Lee, but he's a Borg fan, man. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Tim Tim is an awesome dude and Yeah. Tim Tim is an awesome dude and he's always bragging to me about his favorite game of all time is The Walking Dead and he just absolutely start loves Star Wars and he he owns both games now and it's just he's like you got to ask. [laughter] he's like you got to ask. [laughter] He's like I I turned to him when I was He's like I I turned to him when I was like dude I need I need all the questions because I know I know you know these games inside and out. [laughter] But yeah, I guess that was just He wanted to know too if you have a tip to best utilize the Jedi magnet too at the bottom. Uh when the ball drains, let's say the Uh when the ball drains, let's say the ball drains out. Yeah, a lot of people have asked me about this. So when the ball drains out the left side and you got the Jedi safe lit um or the you know the force safe um right before the ball hits that little bracket that you see sticking out by the out hole right as it right about as it goes gets to that bracket you hit that button and it'll fling it right up the out lane on the right side into the shooter lane. Um, now if the ball drains out the right side and it comes by, if you hit the button, it'll actually force the ball into the out hole, you got to let it go past the magnet and it hits that rail, that metal rail, the flat rail that uh guides it in from from the left side, let it bounce off that, and it'll bounce up toward the magnet. When it's on its way up toward the magnet, you hit the button and it'll throw it back up in between the flippers. So, uh, it's pretty interesting. If you So, uh, it's pretty interesting. If you spell Jedi all the way, when you keep shooting the spinners and you spell Jedi all the way, it'll actually stop the ball and and bring it to a halt and then it'll throw it up between the flippers. But it's actually more fun when you've got the J, the E, and the D lit and use just the force save, not the Jedi ball save. Um, so there's a there's a difference between the two. You know, some people uh you know, they get you have to get the J, you have to get the J and the E to light it. And then when you get the D, it gives you another try. Um because sometimes if you hit the button and your your timing is off and say the ball uh rolls up the right out lane a little bit and it comes back, let it bounce off that rail and gives you a second try. So you hit the button again and as the ball's going back up toward that magnet again, it'll it'll fling it right between the flippers. Um, it's it's def definitely a lot of fun. Uh, when you learn how to use it, um, especially when you're on ball three and you're getting ready to start multiball or something like that and and you save your ball, you're just like, "Yes." Um, it's a lot of fun. I know. That's one of the cool parts in I know. That's one of the cool parts in the trailer. I'm always watching that. I was like, "Dang, that's so cool to watch just go past Yoda right up into the the shooter lane." Oh, yeah. Mike Vineor and I were talking about Mike Vineor and I were talking about that. He he said uh he reminded me of uh uh Golden Eye, James Bond Golden Eye back in the 90s. Back in the day. Yeah. Back in the day. Yeah. And and it had a standard bottom, And and it had a standard bottom, standard four-lane bottom, and the flippers are right in the middle of the game where this game, you know, you got a five lane bottom, so the flippers are offset. So, you know, looking at it, I was like, So, you know, looking at it, I was like, well, I'm I'm going to be able to save it going this way, but the other way isn't going to work. And uh and then so when I was when I was uh exercising it and playing with it, there were a few times where the ball I'd hit the button and I you know the timing would be you know just right on and and the ball would go flinging up the right out lane and it would go up up the out lane and almost get out in between the rubbers that are there. And I thought, "Wow, that's cool." I just took and I cut a piece of the the the ball guide wire off and allowed it to just go up the right out lane and go right into the into the shooter lane and and you know it worked great and and I was like you know so I started showing the guys I'm like look at this this is really cool you know and and you know I'm like force save. So um it worked out really great. So we took something from an old game and we made it even better. You know, it's it's very skillful and and it's a lot of fun, very rewarding when you when you save your ball. Yeah. When I started working on Star Wars, I had the the ad at I had him he was set back a little farther than he is in the production game. Yeah. And he when you you hit him, I had Yeah. And he when you you hit him, I had a target right up where his legs were and you shot the target and then he would lean over and expose his head to the playfield and there was an opto out in front of him and he actually shot it in the head. And uh so I made the model without the the guns on the front and and uh Disney said you got to you got to put the guns on. So I thought those things are going to break off and they're going to be you know they're going to be on the playfield and people are going to be screaming. Uh, so [clears throat] so we uh we just had the thing I I just I moved it I moved it forward and I just had the thing lean down and lean over a target. And George was looking at he was kind of worried that the ball may still hit the thing in the head, you know, like if it deflects and, you know, bounces and it hits the target and goes up a little bit or something, it may it may catch the head. So he took the model and he took the front plate where the neck was mounted and he made it pivot. So when the thing comes down, it its chin kind of hits a bracket and it lifts up. Um to kind of get the ball or the head a little further out of ball harm's way. Um and uh that worked out great. Um uh it would have been fun to bash the thing in the head, but uh I didn't want it to fall apart either. Yeah. So Yeah. So yeah, I don't blame you. I can imagine a yeah, I don't blame you. I can imagine a lot of headless addats out on location with that sort of trauma. Yeah. you know, and when I made Yeah. you know, and when I made Metallica, you know, my my snake lost teeth. Yeah. Yeah. So, I didn't want to lose my head in So, I didn't want to lose my head in this one. Yeah. So, [laughter]

23:19

but uh Yeah. So, and then and then even like, you know, if you know, hitting the the the ADAT, um in the head also, you know, puts a little bit of a jolt on the linkage, you know, and it was a and it's a pear-shaped motor that uh that drives that thing. So, I was a little bit worried about that, too. So, I was told once a long time ago, it's better to make a good game that works great than a great game that works good. Yeah, that's true. Yeah. Yeah, that's true. Yeah. So, So, I I noticed a lot of wire forms in here. I I noticed a lot of wire forms in here. So tell me about your philosophy on wire forms because I yes it's cool to look at the ball travel around a wire form but there is a purpose to to designing the speed at which it's coming off the the wire form or or the you know the kinesthetics of it. So can you tell me why you chose the way you did on these wire forms? Um I uh you know plastic ramps get Um I uh you know plastic ramps get scratched and and uh they look dull after a while. Um, I like the wire ramp look and you can see through and you can see all the artwork behind it. Um, uh, you can see through a plastic ramp, too, but I definitely wouldn't have made all the ramps steel. Uh, but I do like wire ramps. Remember Tales from the Crypt? Yep. Yep. That thing was had wire ramps all over That thing was had wire ramps all over it. So, but yeah, I like wire ramps. So, I noticed that on Star Wars and also on Walking Dead that you guys are using two new artists. Are these specific to the licensers or is this guys that you found in Poland? Oh, no. Yeah. Uh Vince uh Vince Pro Oh, no. Yeah. Uh Vince uh Vince Pro worked on the Star Wars game and uh he also did Dungeons and Dragons for us. Okay. So, Okay. So, we had used Vince before um and I'd met we had used Vince before um and I'd met him a couple of times. uh the new artist, Robert Lassi. Um he is a fabulous illustrator and he uh I never did get to meet him. Um but uh his work is amazing. I mean he just he nailed those images. Uh Rick couldn't look more like Rick and Michonne looks fabulous on the cabinet, you know, slicing the zombies head off. I was actually kind of a little worried that it was a little too scary, a little too, you know, uh the opposite side of the cabinet on the Ellie has got the the arrow in the zombiey's head, you know, and Daryl's chasing it down. Um it's beautiful, though. Um he is he Um it's beautiful, though. Um he is he he really did a really nice job. So, this is a classic game that is now So, this is a classic game that is now it's it's known for a couple things. It's known for having a brutal layout. It's known for having epic rules and for being a game that typically favors the high-end tournament level player. So, so when you approach a game like this, I I'm a little curious what was the what was the thought processes? How can we make this the remastered version of Walking Dead like you did with Metallica? Well, uh, if you play an old Metallica and then you play a new Metallica, you can definitely tell that the new Metallica is a lot friendlier. You get a lot more ball saves. You know, there aren't specials in the outlanes anymore. They're they're they're saves. Um, the bit feature uh in the outlanes on Walking Dead is going to save your ball for you. And the bit bonus that you achieve when you drain is just going to be just kind of an underlying thing that you just collect. Um, so, uh, um, just going to give you the ball back more. Um, we're going to, you know, uh, ball saves going into multiball will last a little longer. Um, we're going to make it play longer. Um, it doesn't seem on the new version, uh, doesn't seem to be like when it comes out of the pops, um, you know, it doesn't it's not going down the the drain as much. You know, I got the it's it's kicking off the post a little bit more. Um, it's uh it's going to be a little friendlier than the the main the old version. Nice. And I do like the coil that you Nice. And I do like the coil that you put in with the wall walker. So, it actually looks like it's like he's Yeah, he's moving. Yeah, cuz like he's Yeah, he's moving. Yeah, cuz when you when you when you spell well, the lights just, you know, they just stream back and forth. And uh I wanted to make him move and, you know, provide some feedback. Metallica was amazing already. and you Metallica was amazing already. and you guys enhanced that. Um, Ray did a fantastic job. Do you plan on doing any any enhancements to the Walking Dead uh rules and whatnot as well? Um, you know, uh, the one thing that I Um, you know, uh, the one thing that I thought was just impossibly hard except for maybe Keith and Ray uh, in the game was getting the last man standing and having to collect 115 zombie kills. [clears throat] We're going to add a couple of things We're going to add a couple of things that you'll collect along the way. So after you get 30, you're you know some number. We'll have to determine what that is uh exactly. Um but you you we're going to give you some like almost like I want to say many wizard modes along the way. So when you get to 30, you'll get something cool and you get to 60, you'll get something cool. Uh and you you can still work your way, you know, go all the way up to 100 and something and get to last man standing. I want to make it easier to uh uh to collect kills so you can boost those numbers up faster, too. So, we're going to do a lot of code enhancements and we'll probably be working on it. We'll probably be working on the code, you know, for another few months yet. So, you also took the um you know, you're you also took the um you know, you're upgrading the DMD to the LCD and yes, I will I will say that was that was a lot of work in that was that was a lot of work in itself just getting the the the look and feel correct and getting licensing to approve it. Um we tried to mock the a lot of the old Um we tried to mock the a lot of the old display effects and they came out really nice. It it looks it looks really good. I mean, I have I I bought a Walking Dead I mean, I have I I bought a Walking Dead last summer. I bought a Walking Dead Premium with very low plays on it with a color DMD and the new display work, when I look and the new display work, when I look even the color DMD looks really nice, but when I look at the new display work, I'm just like there's hands down um it's it's gorgeous. Speaking of the new display work and Speaking of the new display work and whatnot, is there going to be any show clips in there? And also the other question I Oh, go ahead. No, no show clips. No, no show clips. Okay. And then the other question I had Okay. And then the other question I had too is it looks like because I know that uh you guys have upgraded a lot of the scenes from the original Walking Dead uh DMD stuff and put them into the new game. Is it still the same um display size that you've stuck on the new screen and kind of filled around? Uh are you talking about DMD effects Uh are you talking about DMD effects that you're still seeing you were still seeing in a game or Correct. Yeah. So, like, you know, from Correct. Yeah. So, like, you know, from from Walking Dead: The DMD, it uh it looks like in the new trailer, you guys have kind of refreshed those and made them look better for the new game. Is it still the dis is it still the DMD size on the new screen or did you fill out the whole screen with the whole Oh, no. We filled the whole screen. Oh, no. We filled the whole screen. Oh, yeah. Yeah. Oh, yeah. Yeah. Nice. Nice. Um, yeah. I know when when uh when we Um, yeah. I know when when uh when we first went out, I think there were still a couple of uh DMD effects still in the game. Uh, but that that's all that's all gone now. Um, yeah, they're full screen full screen renderings. Nice. Did you have to rework any of the Nice. Did you have to rework any of the modes? So, for example, on Star Wars, sorry, not Star Wars, Spider-Man, you guys had when you did the Ultimate version, they actually like some of the modes were renamed even though the the game play was pretty much the same. Are any modes renamed or are they all going to be if you know the walking dead rules you're going to walk up the modes are all the modes are all the modes are all the modes are all named the same we just changed the uh you know the we just changed the uh you know the icons for on the um on the mode inserts but but the modes are all still going to but but the modes are all still going to play the way they did and they'll be enhanced too and the voice work uh any more callouts and the voice work uh any more callouts any new things going live yeah um yeah we have uh right now I the yeah um yeah we have uh right now I the the voice work that's in the game is just uh what we recorded from Merurl uh 10 12 years ago. Um uh but we've got uh I wrote scripts for uh Michonne, Daryl, Maggie, Carol, Tea Dog. Um some of the characters I I only pulled like maybe five to 10 lines from. Um, but you know, like the main characters like Rick and Carl and Daryl and you know, I pulled a lot of lines and and you know, dug up all the time stamps and gave all that stuff to Jerry and he uh and he he he captured it all. So, that's going to be will be populated and start to appear in the game, too. So, when we start getting updates, it's it's going to get it's going to get really full. You know, it's going to be it's going to be great when it's by the time it's all completely finished. What has been kind of I know you've had a lot of chaos going on with all this, but what's been your favorite process of of making these two games? My favorite process? My favorite process? Sorry. Favorite part of the process, I Sorry. Favorite part of the process, I guess. Oh, I was going to say I was going to Oh, I was going to say I was going to The Favorite part finishing? Um, favorite part of the process? Um, I Um, favorite part of the process? Um, I love sitting down and doing the layout work in the beginning. Um, you know, it's just, uh, it's a lot of work. It's a lot of time. Uh, and I love to just sit and, you know, dig. And sometimes I'll, you know, go to work and I'll come home and I'll eat dinner and I'll be, you know, sitting around, do something for a couple hours and then I'm right back at it again, you know, and I'll I'll draw it at 2 or 3:00 in the morning sometimes. So, I'm really getting into it. Um, but yeah, the drawing and then uh building the first one, you know, building the first the first whitewood up and and and shooting the ball around. And usually I don't even have flippers at that time. And I'm I'm very good at holding the flipper with my thumb and flicking the ball and making making shots, you know, so I'm playing the ball with no power uh as soon as I get the thing built. Nice. Nice. Um, one thing that people have pointed Um, one thing that people have pointed out, you opted to go with regular rollovers instead of star rollovers on on your new Walking Dead. What made you decide to do that? Um uh historically the star rollovers have always had problems with the tooling and flash on the inserted part that's in the playfield. Um uh and sometimes they would get stuck. Um the button is a little nicer. It's got a nice ring around it with uh RGB in it. Um, and then the the nice thing about the new one is um if you want to replace the ones in your old game, they're you all you do that's swap. You don't even have to change connector. Oh wow. It's re it's reverse compatible Oh wow. It's re it's reverse compatible or whatever. Yes. Uhhuh. Backward compatible. Yes. Uhhuh. Backward compatible. Yeah, that's what I meant. [snorts] Yeah, that's what I meant. [snorts] Okay. Yeah. And they're very they're very Yeah. And they're very they're very sensitive. I mean, you uh you know, they're you you you touch them and you push them with your finger and they're they're really super light actuating. Um and they work they work well. Did you have to do anything for the Did you have to do anything for the playfield? Or I guess the real question is what did you have to do for the playfield to retool it for this? Yeah. for for Spike and this version of the cabinet and cuz I I know with Metallica you did some some minor tweaks to get that thing going, but was there anything that you had to do to retweak this? All the all the lightboards and All the all the lightboards and everything just converting, you know, an old game to to Spike Spike 3. Um, all the lightboards have to be redone. Um, uh, you know, and then, you know, when you're remaking a game, you're starting with some of the things that you're keeping from your original model, and then you're changing a ton of stuff, and it's it's it's it's all it's it's it's 90% as hard as doing a a full game from scratch. There's just a ton of work. Um, I don't know if you said, but who's Um, I don't know if you said, but who's doing code on this one? Uh, Guido. Uh, Guido. Awesome. Awesome. Do you guys know? Do you guys know Do you guys know? Do you guys know Guido? No, he's great. He's one of the funnest guys to talk to He's one of the funnest guys to talk to at a uh at a convention. Yeah, Yeah, he has stories. He has a lot of stories. he has stories. He has a lot of stories. Yeah, he's great. Yeah, he's great. So, a lot of times um we know that as So, a lot of times um we know that as the designer, you're also dealing with all the accessories and everything like that. And so, I'm assuming this is even more challenging because you have parallel things. And I would you have parallel things. And I would say notoriously something like Lucasfilms has been very guarded about how they want their product presented. And we we know how long it took for the original um R2-D2 topper to get approved. um R2-D2 topper to get approved. And so how are you working through that And so how are you working through that for this these two projects simultaneously? Mine mine is is just about finished. Mine mine is is just about finished. Yeah. You're not going to wait a year Yeah. You're not going to wait a year for the topper. It's coming. We go we we've got to get to a point where we're toppers have to release with games. Yeah. Yeah. You know, um I think some people buy a You know, um I think some people buy a game and if they have the game sitting for a year, you know, and then they're going to they're like, "Oh, wow. That topper's available now, but I want to buy that next game instead, you know, of the topper." instead, you know, of the topper." Yeah. It's easier to sell a product in Yeah. It's easier to sell a product in your hand. Yeah. Yeah. And we're we're trying to get getting And we're we're trying to get getting closer. I mean, Metallica's topper came out right away after the game release. Um, so both these toppers, the one for Walking Dead and the one for Star Wars, they are stunning. Just like wow. Really really happy with both of them. Can you upgrade the Walking Dead to the Can you upgrade the Walking Dead to the the light bars also for the premium? Not not the I'm sorry, not the light Not not the I'm sorry, not the light bars. The Are you talking about lights? Are you talking about lights? Yeah, I'm talking the expression Yeah, I'm talking the expression lighting. Oh, yeah. And it's really easy to do. Oh, yeah. And it's really easy to do. The the trim comes with the lights and everything, and all you do is just pop it on the cabinet and bolt it down. It's it's it's much easier to to to add to a premium than it is on the Spike 2 system. Oh, nice. Oh, nice. I guess one question I have is on Star I guess one question I have is on Star Wars and on Walking Dead, you have like helmets and heads. Where did that concept come from? And what made you decide to put like Well, the heads came from Walking Dead. Well, the heads came from Walking Dead. [laughter] Um, uh, yeah, Star Wars. I knew I wanted to do Darth Vader and I and I uh you know and it ended up being a scoop and Darth Vader was going to give you things and start modes and uh and I wanted to dress it up and you know being that that scoop is so low in the playfield close to the flippers you know I couldn't put a figurine so I just molded I just molded his head. Um, and then the Stormtrooper head. We already had tooling for that one. And I had a target over on the other side that was for the Stormtrooper. And I'm like, well, I'm just going to take this old shooter and I'm going to uh, you know, I'll just instead of uh, filling it because that was the shooter knob for the old Star Wars game. Um, I didn't put the insert in it and I just put holes in the bottom of it and attach it to the plastic and put a light bulb up up in it so it would light up. Um, so that's how the heads got there on Star Wars. Okay. But I'm noticing a theme. Covered Okay. But I'm noticing a theme. Covered heads seem to be in your last, you know, three games. So you have Metallica, Skulls. Skulls. My next game might have a head in it, My next game might have a head in it, too. One.

38:54

Yeah, I think I I I think I have a head in my next model that's coming. Okay. Okay. Yeah. Yeah. You're already working on your next You're already working on your next game, aren't Shouldn't you be taking a vacation? I should and I'm gonna I'm gonna get I'm going to take some time off here over Christmas in between like Christmas, New Year's. Um, but uh I just uh I just started pounding away right away because uh I definitely want to make sure that I have some time for a vacation this summer. Don't you have to work on two games Don't you have to work on two games simultaneously? Isn't that in your contract? Like you have to you have to release two games a year. Oh, no. You know, I I it's been that way Oh, no. You know, I I it's been that way for a lot of years, but it's not in the contract. [laughter] [laughter] So, but uh So, but uh yeah, I'll I'll probably pick up two. Um I think I'm picking up two this year. Nice. What is the take-home message that Nice. What is the take-home message that you want people to know about this game is like, you know what, this is why this game is awesome. Um I think the thing that uh raises the Um I think the thing that uh raises the hair on the back of my neck the most when I play that game is when I go into multi uh Death Star multiball and I shoot those jackpot shots. Um uh and I you get through the the 14 shots and sometimes you'll hit a shot and you'll and you'll have a like a multiplier lit. You'll get rewarded two shots for the one shot. Um uh but when you get to 14 and then you blast the Death Star and it opens up and you make that shot and then the game just goes dead and everything turns, you know, all the all the balls drain, flippers flippers quit and you're like, "Whoa, what happened?" You know, and then all of a sudden you see the explosion in the screen. Uh I just that I just love that you know when you get there um you know and it's pretty hard to start the multiball and when you but when you get there and you get to that that that's a lot of fun. Awesome. Same question on Walking Dead. Awesome. Same question on Walking Dead. The only thing uh Oh, I want to say the The only thing uh Oh, I want to say the only thing that I regret is uh remember when the the the the prison doors open and you see the zombie walking along the fence and he exposes himself and he gets clubbed with the crowbar. Yeah, that was that was me that was that was me back in, you know, 12 13 years ago. back in, you know, 12 13 years ago. Yeah. Um the new artwork for that doesn't look Um the new artwork for that doesn't look exact. It doesn't look like me. So, uh so that was the bummer about it. But prison multiball, um I love doing that. I love shooting the crossbow and I love shooting Bicycle Girl. The that those those growls and moans that she makes, you know, you you hear, you know, she's uh that's a lot of fun. So, that's those that's three things um that I love about Walking Dead. And then I love The Walking Dead topper, too. Why did you put Okay, please tell me Why did you put Okay, please tell me your head is the severed head on the topper. I mean, it has to be It has to be the John Borg zombie severed head. It's It might Well, you know what? I It's It might Well, you know what? I mean, maybe after, you know, several years of being a zombie, one of one of the one of the three or maybe two of the three could possibly be me. Okay. Has [laughter] Okay. Has [laughter] it been kind of a trip down nostalgia lane going back through making a new Walking Dead and saying um when that when that show came saying um when that when that show came out, you know, I remember AMC they they'd put a timer up on the screen. It would say like two days, three hours and 20 minutes until The Walking Dead, you know, and they were always they always had this timer. They were showing this timer on the screen when The Walking Dead was going to air. And I was sitting in front of the TV probably 20 or 30 minutes before it the first episode aired. and I just loved it. The first season was just amazing. Um the first four seasons were were just unbelievable. I I loved it. I couldn't get enough of it. Is Is Negan in this one in the Is Is Negan in this one in the remastered? No. No. Yeah, it's still the first four seasons. Yeah, it's still the first four seasons. We didn't add any any of the following seasons. Okay. [snorts] Okay. [snorts] Yeah. Yeah. Hey, nothing wrong with that. Hey, nothing wrong with that. Well, you know what? The one part that I Well, you know what? The one part that I I remember when they got to Terminus and they were all had their heads leaned over into that stainless steel trough and they were they were going to they were going to make food out of them. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I didn't want anything like that in the I didn't want anything like that in the game. [laughter] A little too over the top. Uh A little too over the top. Uh um but yeah um yeah the scenes that we picked you know in the beginning when I first started working on the game I in I intended uh on using some of the u the movie footage and and I actually scripted all of it and got timestamps for all the stuff that was said and you know this is where the scene starts and this is where the scene ends and I broke it all broke all the modes down. there just wasn't enough there wasn't enough footage there to to do it. And then that's when we decided we're like we're gonna we're gonna make the game with we're gonna re we're going to recreate and and better the original display effects. Um you know like when you kill a zombie, you see a few zombies and they're wandering out, you know, they're just kind of like waddling out in the in a field and then you you make one of the kill shots and you see the thing go and it falls. Um, you know, and back when we were doing dots, there were probably like maybe 10 dots that made those little characters, you know, and yeah, yeah, uh, they were kind of campy and fun on uh, they were kind of campy and fun on dot in dot matrix, but they're definitely more realistic and and very cool looking now. Uh, Chuck and his team, they all they did a great job. Well, awesome. We really appreciate you Well, awesome. We really appreciate you coming on. Is do you feel like do you think there's anything that we do you think there's anything that we just haven't covered that like you've got to know this about Star Wars or Walking Dead? Wow, that's a tough one. Wow, that's a tough one. Uh, I'll answer that one when we do the next show. Okay, Okay, sounds good to me. [laughter] sounds good to me. [laughter] If you want people getting a hold of If you want people getting a hold of you, what's what's the best way? If you don't want them, you can just tell them now. Oh, uh, uh, I'm on Facebook and Oh, uh, uh, I'm on Facebook and Messenger and Cool. Cool. Yeah, people people I haven't been on Yeah, people people I haven't been on Facebook in a while, so I got a lot of friend requests that I haven't had a chance to go through. Um, so, uh, I met some people at the influencer party when we did, uh, Star when we did the Fall of the Empire. Yeah. Yeah. And, uh, and I had a few people, you And, uh, and I had a few people, you know, that I asked them, I go, "Are we friends on Facebook?" And they'd say, "No." And I said, "Well, send me a friend request." And I haven't I've got to look and look at them. I've got a whole bunch. I have I just haven't had time to. Well, now you have time. Well, now you have time. The internet all that much. Facebook. The internet all that much. Facebook. Now it's time to sit in your backyard Now it's time to sit in your backyard with with four inches of snow on top of your four inches of snow on my umbrella. I'm four inches of snow on my umbrella. I'm like, "Yeah." Uhhuh. I I want [laughter] a picture of you in your Bermuda shorts and your uh and your uh in my in my lawn chair. in my in my lawn chair. Yeah. In your lawn chair. Yeah. In your lawn chair. My snow shovel sitting right next to me. My snow shovel sitting right next to me. And your sunglasses and your your beach And your sunglasses and your your beach hat. That's what I need. [laughter]