Labyrinth Pinball with Bowen Kerins

Pintastic New England·video·1h 17m·analyzed·Feb 7, 2025

Analysis

claude-haiku-4-5-20251001 · $0.032

TL;DR

Barrels of Fun showcases Labyrinth pinball design, rules, and production strategy.

Summary

Bowen Kerins, assistant rules designer at Barrels of Fun, presents Jim Henson's Labyrinth pinball game at Pintastic New England alongside David Van Ness (co-founder). The presentation covers game rules, design philosophy emphasizing player agency and intuitive choreography, licensing strategy with the Henson Company and David Bowie's estate, and production updates. Van Ness discusses why Barrels of Fun chose Houston for manufacturing, the philosophy of creating collectible machines with a single model tier, and ongoing production scaling to meet demand.

Key Claims

Jim Henson's Labyrinth is Barrels of Fun's first game
high confidence · Bowen Kerins: 'this is our first game uh Jim Henson's Labyrinth'
Limited to 1,100 units for the main game, with optional accessories (topper, alternate backglass, shooter rod) available separately
high confidence · Bowen Kerins: 'the games and cells are limited to 1100 and but the topper anyone can get any of the accessories'
The game currently has no instruction card by design; players learn intuitively through color-coded shots and sound/light feedback
high confidence · Bowen Kerins: 'we don't have an instruction card we don't want an instruction card we want people will just go in be able to play do things they feel are natural'
Battle Jarth wizard mode is still being finalized and will be made available as a 'start from start' feature like Stern does
high confidence · Bowen Kerins: 'the very final was Mode called battle jarth is still being um not built but but made really really good uh one goal we've said we've said publicly is that both both of the wizard modes...will be made available as start from start'
The player is positioned as the protagonist navigating the Labyrinth, not Sarah; licensing allowed creative agency choices
high confidence · Bowen Kerins on Jennifer Connelly absence: 'it is the fact that we want you to be the character and have the agency that runs in the game'
Barrels of Fun manufactures in Houston due to logistics (Port of Houston), workforce availability (engineers from NASA/Boeing), metal fabrication infrastructure, and lack of state income tax
high confidence · David Van Ness: 'Houston actually is one of the largest ports into the United States...metal fabrication in Houston um and one of the key things...I have NASA that I'm pulling from'
The company is currently producing approximately 10 games per week, but Van Ness quality-checks each machine and can reject units that don't meet standards
high confidence · David Van Ness: 'we are averaging around 10 games a week right now...I'm a collector and if the game doesn't meet my expectations it goes back out'

Notable Quotes

“you have to you have to work really hard to make the choreography intuitive and that's one of the things that people I don't think they understand how hard it is to make a game feel good”
Bowen Kerins@ 3:35 — Core design philosophy: player experience depends on meticulous attention to feedback choreography, not just mechanics
“you can be off by just a little bit and it'll feel uncanny in a way”
Bowen Kerins@ 6:42 — Illustrates precision required in visual/thematic authenticity, especially with major IP like David Bowie
“so we have an extra challenge layer in doing a game like Labyrinth and doing it justice”
Bowen Kerins@ 4:14 — Acknowledges the design burden of creating a thematic game that respects the source material while maintaining playability
“I want to try and bring new talent to the industry so when it comes to metal fabricators I have NASA that I'm pulling from”
David Van Ness@ 35:46 — Barrels of Fun's strategy to inject fresh engineering perspectives and methodologies into pinball manufacturing
“what I missed was the hunt for games like not not knowing what the next game's going to be and finding that rare game”
David Van Ness@ 38:42 — Core motivation for single-tier model: restore scarcity and collectibility to pinball market, differentiating Barrels of Fun's approach
“the answer is always yes...usually what happens is you try that thing and you're like oh this isn't actually fun”
Bowen Kerins — Reveals iterative design process: many ideas are tested and rejected in favor of simpler, more fun mechanics

Entities

Bowen Kerinsperson David Van NesspersonPhil GaldipersonBrian SavagepersonNate HillmanpersonEric PypersonBarrels of Funcompany

Signals

?
product_launch: Jim Henson's Labyrinth is in production and shipping; currently averaging ~10 units per week with quality control rejections; limited to 1,100 units total
high · Bowen Kerins: 'getting that stuff out to everybody'; David Van Ness: 'we are averaging around 10 games a week right now...if the game doesn't meet my expectations it goes back out'
?
manufacturing_signal: Barrels of Fun is adding a second production line due to higher-than-expected demand for Labyrinth
high · David Van Ness: 'we're actually adding a second line right now to increase our production'
?
design_philosophy: Game designed for zero instruction card; uses color-coded shots, sound, and lighting choreography to teach players intuitively; every shot (except right ramp) has two outcomes reflecting Labyrinth theme
high · Bowen Kerins: 'we don't have an instruction card...we want people...to be able to play...and understand why they're doing what they're doing'; 'every shot literally has two outcomes cuz in Labyrinth no matter if you went left or right there is always an alternative outcome'
?
design_innovation: Novel side-flipper shot configuration with loop and escape ramp enabling extended combos; music cue changes when multiball is 'ready' (third lock available) vs. merely having two balls locked
high · Bowen Kerins: 'side flipper shot up in the middle there...a loop around and then a sort of Escape ramp...you can combo for quite a while'; 'the music changes...when multiball is actually ready not just that you have two balls locked'
?
licensing_signal: The Henson Company and David Bowie's estate grant creative freedom to Barrels of Fun; they review and approve design choices (e.g., Bowie image precision, muppet hair details) but empower the designer's vision

Topics

Game Rules and MechanicsprimaryDesign Philosophy (Intuitive Gameplay, Player Agency)primaryManufacturing and ProductionprimaryLicensing Strategy and IP CollaborationprimaryMarket Positioning and CollectibilityprimaryCode Updates and Wizard Mode DevelopmentsecondaryBarrels of Fun Company History and VisionsecondaryComparison to Competitors (Stern)mentioned

Sentiment

positive(0.85)— Strong enthusiasm from presenters about the game's design quality, player reception, and production success. Van Ness expresses passion about restoring excitement to the pinball market. Some minor frustration mentioned regarding design iterations and production constraints, but overall tone is celebratory and forward-looking.

Transcript

youtube_auto_sub · $0.000

hi everyone uh I'm Bowen I'm the mathematical adviser of dealo No Deal Island but you're not here for that I am also the assistant rules designer at barrels of fun and this is our first game uh Jim Henson's Labyrinth uh Dave Vans when he's here he'll talk to you all about how how much of a passion project this is for him that he's always desperately wanted a labyrinth game to be created and then he was like well you know what I'm going to have to do it myself and uh built the company along with Brian Savage who has a history with the uh Collectibles at Hasbro and uh made this company in this game and I'm supposed to stand over here all right um and I I've been involved with this project for quite a while with uh ideas about what the rules could be along with Phil galdi who's the head rules designer and plenty of other people people who were recognizable from from other companies along the way and we're just excited I to see the reception this game's gotten and to see the game being delivered and manufactured correctly and uh getting that stuff out to everybody this this was game number 92 and the games that pinbal stars offering out there are I think 147 148 uh and this comes with uh this is the off optional topper uh the games and cells are limited to 1100 and but the topper anyone can get any of the accessories there's a Topper there's an alternate back glass with characters instead of with David Boe and there's also a shooter Rod that looks like a little Nipper that uh gets carried around so if you're a super fan of the movie you might find that cool otherwise you're just like a so creepy what is that thing uh anyway um so I'd like to show you a little bit about uh what in the game but also talk through some of the design decisions uh and how we use color to help the player learn how to play the game while they're playing it for the first time we don't have an instruction card we don't want an instruction card we want people will just go in be able to play do things they feel are natural and then get rewarded for them and get progress for them and understand why they're doing what they're doing as they build up through the game and I'm going to have my butt pointed at you apparently but uh if any point there are questions or you'd like to to ask something how about questions before before we even do this uh any question about this yeah so you were involved in the rules right uh yes I been involved in the rules designed for this game uh and some some parts around the layout as well and the choices that that we made uh especially things like how we convey information to the player where are the lamps what colors are the lamps what happened happens when when do the light shows happen and why uh and that amount of detail really needs to go into a game for it to feel right so when you shoot something and it gives you the right sound and the right lights and the right the right display at that moment you know all right I did that and I know I did that and it was cool and I want to do it again and I want to play this game again I want to own this game that's that's how you get that's that's how you get people really independable what that's what made it intuitive right you have to you have to work really hard to make the choreography intuitive and that's one of the things that people I don't think they understand how hard it is to make a game feel good it's very and you know it when you play a game you play a game you do something and you're like I don't I don't get it it doesn't feel right when it doesn't feel right you just know when it does feel right you usually don't even think about it just like yeah yeah boom boom boom that that's a lot of work to get all of those details right the combos the shots changing dire ction on the Labyrinth to make the player feel like they are confused that's exactly what you don't want you want the player to understand intuitively how to do something that they're supposed to be confused by so we have an extra challenge layer in doing a game like Labyrinth and doing it justice did you have another question with that or okay go ahead I think I speak for everyone here when I say um the question is where is Jennifer Connelly well um I live with Jennifer Conley for a year and uh it's uh what actually happened with this and David is better at this than I am so I should leave the question him but the reality is it's about uh H how you play the game and who you are what is your agency in the game uh so in this game you are the one navigating the Labyrinth that allows you to turn left when Jennifer connley turned right you can go in the helping hand saucer and in the movie they ask her up or down she says down Dave would say well I wonder what would have happened if she'd said up it would have been completely different well you can say up you can decide to hang out with the worm and drink tea uh and these are all things that didn't happen in the movie and that's why it feels like your story so actually the choice licensing he'll talk about the licensing if you want to we were fine we we we could we could have done the licensing no problem it wasn't extra money it wasn't extra anything like that it is the fact that we want you to be the character and have the agency that runs in the game again I encourage you to look at other pinball machines and feel the agency one of the best examples is Spider-Man turn Spider-Man you make a shot you hear woo like you're Spider-Man you're doing that stuff the dude is yelling at you the guy from the movie with the drums he's yelling at you to do stuff and you really feel like Spider-Man and you feel the agency and that's one of the reasons not the only one that makes that a great game what the girl what girl what the oh that girl she's already been through it once why would she go through that again that's the answer what other questions um I have to I'll have to pass that one on to David but let me remember that that question uh it is it is a really good picture um and it's very hard to get that picture right because you can be off by just a little bit and it'll feel uncanny in a way um so that and also the whole process we're working with both the Hensen company as well as uh David Bo's estate to uh get agreements and insurances and they get to prove everything they can look at the game and say like all right you need to do more of this or less of this but it also means that we get to work with them about how this hair is designed and what what to dip it in to make it just right for a muppet uh and the thing those those things are like it's incredible we get to work with freaking Henson it was amazing uh and I think barrels again it's more for Davis I'm sorry barrels is going to really enjoy working with companies to make their Vision come to Life as a machine and the the premium quality of these machines will hopefully bring more licens or table say oh we we would love to see this done and with with the the level of detail that you are building for your other machines yeah they're they're good I I like this one a lot better but you're right there there are plenty people like why don't you just have the characters be the one for everybody I was like well because it's damn Bowie do you have any like rules ideas had that really wanted that you couldn't do or that like you thought were really cool so what about rules ideas we didn't we didn't do the answer is always yes the answer is always yes uh because you you're like oh it would be like this and usually what happens is you try that thing and you're like oh this isn't actually fun uh or it it's rarer that you just run out of time but it's usually the the the choice end being something more simple than what you thought you wanted to do you're like I can make one shot and then I can make two shots and then I can make three shots I make and you realize like no this is a 20 shot mode this is not going to work uh and all right well what could we use out of that gener general idea and produce it so when we play oet that's my favorite on here talk about the detail of that but there are many many other stories like that that I really can't share because if you have those ideas you still have them and you could piggyback them into uh game two or game three or game four yeah is this game done I know a lot of games nowadays done I know a lot of games nowadays they they'll have more releases there more they want to do you can pick up your table but you're going to see a new release I see the stern tables out there were we done when the Germans bomb Pro Harbor uh I the answer is no it's not done um there uh the the the very final was Mode called battle jarth is still being um not built but but made really really good uh one goal we've said we've said publicly is that both both of the wizard modes which are uh the battle jarth and the Goblin City will be made available as start from start so like what Stern's been doing for for a few years now so everyone will get the chance to experience Goblin City and jarth regardless of their ability to get there uh many people have gotten a battle jarth in real life so far and not just because it's not there it is there just nobody's gotten all the orbs yet and you have to get all 13 orbs talk about that when the game starts ready to go let's go all right all right so um this is mainly mainly a game about meeting friends and having your friends carry you forward through things you know it's all it's all about the friends you meet along the way uh it's also a mode based game there are six modes in the middle and at the beginning of the game when you first hit a switch it will lock in a mode so you can actually choose your mode but you're not choosing your mode with the flippers flip everything over to find what you lost what did you find in there oh find someone's Keys all right let's go so I'm going to try to pick oet by plunging at the right time to get it get that there no went around to uh to to knockers so to start mode you need to shoot the white arrows and so ramps and orbits are white arrows along with loops on once per ball you get this free save from dimus in blue and uh after you use them up you got to light it again by getting to his level there's also shots colored in yellow and blue and orange and those correspond to the three characters Hogle Ludo and damus in the movie they represent different ways to improve yourself in the in the uh in The Labyrinth Hogle makes things easier by Def finding shortcuts Ludo is offensive so he makes things worth more and dmus is defensive so he makes saves and ball Savers and addab balls uh generally ways to make the game simpler to [Music] play before once you make enough white arrows you spell the word Labyrinth um and I don't know if you may have never seen the game there's two screens the main screen and the bottom screen the bottom screen generally gives you uh useful heads up information while the top one is more about your overall overall display so it'll show The Labyrinth letters and then when I shoot and start four guards when I shoot and start four guards complete this Quest shoot 10 targets for a frenzy yeah frenzy one of us always and what was all I wish I could always lie like that gosh you don't always lie not always so in uh this is a classic logic puzzle that's in the movie um and you you ask a question that locks in a color by shooting one of the side flipper shots and then I see red shots and blue shots I got to make everything red and the sign in the bottom screen also says shoot ramps orbits to tile color make them red uh correct door value 2.5 million Lo points 270 so I need to get the blue shots to turn red get up and around no no good there blue shots blue shot is that [Music] right blue shot I do not I tell the TR oh what life now that everything is red I have the Escape lit on the red side the right side to go this is actually what what what happens in the movie is uh she asked a question and then figures out that it's that door and if you make them blue all blue instead of all red you can take the blue door but it turns out to be wrong here it's the red door and by shooting through the red door oh do we have a problem with that should have gone through there oh I see what's happened there no I missed it well I hit it but I missed it sorry bad all right let's see if we can't go down and play something else we get fies lit but the process is still the same you shoot white lights and then white lights will light the modes that's close enough hello was that a worm yeah that's William nice chck he loves tea it's true he does [Music] I bro [Music] you I like that uh side flipper shot up in the middle there sorry I should have shaked that but uh from the side from side flipper you have two main shots a loop around and then a sort of Escape ramp that goes back around through the spinner and back to the left flipper it's not really something I've seen in too many other games um so it's it's a nice flow you go around the loop you go around the orbit you can go through it sets up some really long combos yeah there's a four-way combo there but uh you can combo for quite a while um let's uh see if we can get get multiball but also uh let's start another mode [Music] too if you want to light locks you shoot the green so there are green targets everywhere there's a treasure you want that yet oh there's a treasure okay once you hit the green all the green shots the locks the locks are lit the first lock is on the left spinner the second lock will be on the center ramp and the third lock will be on the right orbit all three shots go to the same place in the back of the game they grabbed by that magnet dumped in for the lock hey look Co out [Music] here one nice thing about that Center is it can actually also be made from the lower right flipper oh special music people ask us to play this music like the whole game sometimes and they're wrong um if you play this music the whole time people would hate it it's a very short Loop but but this is inspired by uh games like Adams Family and Twilight Zone and when you got two locks and multiball ready the music changes and the music only changes when multiball is actually ready not just that you have two balls locked but the third lock is ready and there it is uh and so it's another one of those indicators that is an intuition to the player like okay the situation is different now multiball is lit and let me look for the green light um I forget who came up with that among the team I think I think it may have been me I was playing some other game and going like yeah why don't we do that everybody should do that and then uh within a day or two the the music folks have mocked it up and Eric py the programmer and put in the game and we're like yeah this this makes it better but it's all that iteration like you try something and then and then the next day you're like that's worse this is not good let's not do this but in this case it's much better you should be talking about this music now but you're not I don't know they will comment on the music they'll say like well I hope this player doesn't get multiball because I love this music uh we can also start a mode alongside it now get in there oo good live catch all right as a Mode start a wonderful conversational companion [Music] and the knockers is a sequence of shots uh if you've seen this in the movie there's an exact sequence of things that happens in the movie which is you knock the left it's like no it's for the other one you try to knock the right but it's caught uh then we follow that sequence pretty precisely you got that well meanwhile multiball is also red so oh there's a jackpot a Hogle jackpot so let's uh do this H let's not do this hold any flipper buttons no friend multiball canceled so there's a there's a multiball you earn for collecting each friend at least once and we just got that ready but it can be worth more no good hear you the longer that you go uh in the this is the star of multile a bab bab with power power of voo the bab my bab it comes on right at the right time okay the way this multibow works you make as many you make enough red shots mag oh come on now trying to trap up so I can tell people what's going on Dance Magic dancece also trying to make sure I get enough of the song Jump magic jump they were like well how much the song should we use in the game like no all of it uh and the Super Jackpot is over here you put a ball behind that fork after making up regular jackpots and then it sits there waiting for it to be carmed by your ball so you knock it in and wo it's very satisfying also I just made some progress in the knockers mode babbe go all right so who's that guy how you doing all right welcome I'm late everyone we're dancing is this your fault this whole game is your fault I want stop you keep going so should I shoot the knocker or shoot the worm what do you got let's go for the right ramp and then car it into there do it I didn't do it all right the best seat in the house you're going to wash it from there absolutely all right so the the Super Value this is Phil galdi is responsible with this spin the spinner makes it way the hell better than than without because the jackpot value isn't just fixed it is uh 1.9 million plus 190,000 per spin so if I can hit that hard I get a better super Jack Pot and it keeps going up in value every time so the more you get the better it [Music] gets slap that baby set it didn't they say that slap the baby kick the baby don't kick the baby okay knock and the door will open open oh knock three times no that's get in there get oh darn you only have a limited amount of time to get this part where you have to knock on the door [Music] come Ono [Music] knock get in there no I just like him B you you play him I just told them all about what games you don't want to make next that's okay I'm sure we're going to be one of them all right let's do this right way there one two man all [Music] right no no one two no oh did it with the ever flipper how is that even the thing told you that W okay and then you put you put the marker back in where it belongs now you can knock where you couldn't knock before there's no pressure what are you talking about oh I never got KN once did it hurt yeah did it h that didn't sit down for a [Music] there it [Music] is oh L mystery is lit there we go let's go worm come inside and have a nice C tea give me the Tea Party come on give me the Tea Party a no tea for you cup of points whatever rip me off [Music] what are we doing here we got oh get in there all right more jackpots it's a it's a present oh it's a present he seems very happy about it all right should we take the friend multiball this time we ignored it so that we can grow the value the value is now 7 million a jackpot instead of 3 million and you can you can abort and try to drive it higher or you can just take it it looks like starting this is what family matters Family Matters and friend multiball have the same uh almost the exact same letter forl intonation in this multiball you got uh different colors for the the friends and the goal is to the goal is to get at least one of each of the friend shots and then go from there oh meanwhile we finish knockers sweet or what you want me to get an orb right now what about this jackpot I just picked up that's 7 million man you oh you do want me to get the orb right now fine I'll do it there's another 10 million for the orb now what do you want you want it on the ramp all right F I'll double that I'll double that let's go over there too why don't weow down your weapons and want another jackpot oh talk too much all right so orbs are the reward for doing well in things for winning a mode or uh in this case making it to friend multiball so the way uh a orb is going to be lit it shows up underneath the upper Flipper on the Lo shot which is also the mystery collect this shot is one of the most important shots in the game but players tend not to like either know it's there or go for it because it's not exactly obvious but here I'll go right under and boom and it gives me in this case a mystery award wa you going to give me the the Tea Party no how you enjoy my PE 10 million for collecting an orb and an opportunity to add a score multiplayer give me the orb the or keep it safe you're just trying to steal it be quiet okay and then uh FES is lit let's play FES or miss the shot you know that that works FES [Music] yeah get off my so FES is about popping heads oh and losing the ball apparently popping his this is not J in this case every head you pop every head you pop is an adall I didn't see that why aren't they saying anything about it huh you got these guys where's the Tilt there where's the Tilt I'm nobody it didn't be hoarding oh yeah we didn't get it that teaches you all right so the way that's supposed to work is you put a ball back in the lock pop it off like the super for before but because you're popping heads from the fies from the movie that will also put another head in play so every time you pop a ball there will'll also add a ball into play well on on every jackpot so five times you can bring in a new ball uh and then the value is also multiply by the number of balls so you can put a big score on there or in my case 250,000 all right what's this about a tea party though I I come inside and have a nice cup of tea he just invites me for tea but he never actually gives me any tea oh this gives me extra ball that's fine too when is the tea woohoo too close to Boston mate what what yeah so close to Boston he's just going to throw the tea in the [Laughter] river oh my God all right um why don't me pause here for uh questions and see what what you have questions about the rules or questions about uh the game and this is David Van Es the uh Hey guys the man in charge of the barrels all the barrels all the barrels I'm just a Cooper yeah [Music] what's the answer he want she wanted to know about the Bowie backass and how the Bowie back class came about use the mic let's see which testing there we go uh the Bowie backl I mean so obviously when designing the game uh the golin king is who you're up against so we always wanted throughout the movie he's always looking down onto the Labyrinth watching Sarah and whoever is coming through the Labyrinth so we wanted to make sure he was in a prime position not looking at you cuz any anytime you see someone on a back glass looking at you is always weird so we're always going to make sure he's looking a away you know not directly at you but so we wanted to use the analogy of he's watching you through the crystal balls cuz he does that all the time and that's essentially how we came up with of a combination he is watching you making it through his Labyrinth and that's how it came [Music] about so that was uh Nate Hillman Nate Hillman does a well did he still does uh a lot of the posters for all the Star Wars movies for Disney and uh the Marvel posters so he's actually a traditional [Music] oh that's the multiball music the hold on we got some goblins the chaos go ahead uh what made us want to get the license for Labyrinth basically is what you're asking any so really what it comes down to is what is the best world underglass we can tell what lends itself to a pinball world what's going to connect with you guys to make you want to play this game so like in fact talking to Hansen there are other titles they would like us to do but a I enjoy all their properties I'm more of a labyrinth person myself but looking at the world that we could create looking at the relationship with the company is that would allow us to tell our story in that world now I will tell you right now most licenses will not let you do that but Hensen is very much a family company and they want to empower people not just storytellers but even product how can they best represent their IP so looking at Labyrinth even though were pushing little things out to us when you look at that world there's so many opportunities for you to Choose Your Own Adventure in this in this IP um and one of the things I found interesting when I watched this movie as a kid is I was always frustrated by the choices Sarah made like if you're falling down a hole do you choose to continue down the hole no you don't you go up so it was those little things that made me feel like this is an opportunity for people to experience those characters in that world because let's be honest who would not want to be get lost in a labyrinth like this you know so like this is an opportunity for you to meet all those characters that Sarah did on her way but it becomes a very unique experience for you as the player with the opportunity to experience those exact moments that you may be identified with when you watch that movie so for example when he was playing FES that song as a kid I hated it I felt like it was completely disconnected from the the film like you're in this film then all of a sudden it goes into these this musical like the like really obious like almost like a music clip a music video and it totally took me out of everything but that now in the pinball world it's probably one of my most favorite modes because the music actually fits pinball and what you're doing in it actually correlates to what you would do in the film so it's it's kind of weird how that was one of most dis dislikes about the film has now one come one of my favorite moments now in the pinball World y what what's your favorite mode uh I like oet oh I like trying to getet the whole game finally about to come back around to it you know you can change the mode by hitting that side Target what I got to it right now oh there you go any other questions [Music] in y Texas a I have house there uh but B actually it is the one of the largest ports into the United States so anything that comes through Walmart Home Depot actually comes through the Port of Houston uh versus East Coast and West Coast in fact it's actually cheaper to get parts into Houston compared to anywhere else in the United States so when you think logistically uh shipping uh importing exporting is actually a very strong State uh we have a very high level of uh educated Workforce down there um so is it uh a pinball Workforce absolutely not but I've been able to pull Engineers from NASA Boeing uh we have a very strong uh metal fabrication in Houston um and one of the key things that I learned from film making was the ability when you're in a when you're making a film you hire the best people not to make the film you make you hire the best people who does costumes who is the best cinematographer Who is the this person and don't get me wrong I love pinball and all the people have made pinball but a lot of pinball is made on lineage of people that made pinball for the last 50 plus years very important I want to try and bring new talent to the industry so when it comes to metal fabricators I have NASA that I'm pulling from you know and they think about things different but they also very passionate about pinball so do I want to radically change things no but I want to look at it at in a different way as possible as I can so that's why I chose Houston there's a very rich diverse culture down there um B I live there uh you know there's no uh income tax so that helps so uh there's a lot of benefits but honestly I think if you're passionate you can do it anywhere it's just a matter of the team you put together H that's close [Music] it's so it's been increasing but it's fluctuating so with the success of this game it has gone above our expectations now as we said we always wanted to make up to 1,00 that was not always like we can cut it off whenever we want mainly because while we're developing multiple games if we need to change if we haven't sold out we would cut the line off okay so this is about so back to your question cuz I will always take a short question make it really really long oh I love this one I love the music on this what do you like about I love how every shot has two different outcomes Y which actually was the When approaching this layout was making sure every shot literally has two outcomes cuz in Labyrinth no matter if you went left or right there is always an alternative outcome the only shot that doesn't have an alternative take uh path is the right ramp uh so we are averaging around 10 games a week right now we're actually do a little bit higher a little bit lower because um I'm a collector and if the game doesn't meet my expectations it goes back out on it goes back um it's an expensive thing but I don't want to give you guys something that's subpar honestly cuz I feel like when we entered the market when we were looking at entering the market we looked out as like what's missing from it like any business you got to look at where's your opportunity come into the market and I've been in the hobby since I was 16 got out of it got back into it in early 2000s and one thing that I always loved about pinball was the community in a minute Goblin City's City's lit if you want to play City okay well let me finish up this one we'll go um so what I missed was the hunt for games like not not knowing what the next game's going to be and finding that rare game and when we looked at the market now we have a lot of people that there's multiple versions of each game now you know and everyone knows what everyone else is doing and what I wanted to do was put that excitement back into pimble that you know I wanted to see so that's why we have one model that's why there's only you know we want to make the ultimate collectible the sideshow of pinball and we feel like you know that's missing from the industry and that's really was the impetus of starting the company so with the success of the game we have now had to increase our production by a lot um we're actually adding a second line right now to increase our production the problem when you do that is quality will drop and that's why I've actually slowed down our production right now because I want to make sure as we bring on new people that the games are being made correctly and I I you know when you ship a game I mean if you move what game over to that corner I guarantee you something's going to happen to it because that's pinball right so it's a matter of quality and training is that we're focusing on but when that second line comes on there's going to be a pretty big shift in what we can out put but yeah absolutely well and just efficiency like we don't have multiple SKS we you know and we and I don't want to have to guess what you guys do I mean there's a little bit of guess work we've got to put into it by saying what do we think this penetration into the Market's going to be right um and the response to this game I mean just seeing you guys here I can't believe you guys are here to see a labyrinth pinball machine but obviously means we did something right you know why wouldn't we be freaking aw well I mean Labyrinth was a very hard cell really yeah I mean I told you like hansome it was even like do you want to do something else and I'm like no I think this will be the perfect game it's a game that right I guess my question is about is about theme integration and the uh IP as well as like shot layout yeah how does that like really happen like do you like go to Jim Hensen you're like I want to make or is it more like you have ideas for shot layout so how we approach licenses extremely different to everyone else um we approach them because we're very passionate and we approach them with a very fleshed out concept and the reason why we do that is my film background you can't get a film made unless you actually can clearly tell what you're trying to do because when you're raising money for a film you know most films don't even get made so you have to put a lot of effort into it so when we go to them it's like we're not making a pinball machine just with pop bumpers and stuff where truly integrating your IP into this world so that's how we approach it oh so so just like approaching the theme so what I'll do before I even talk to the licensers I will talk to the group and go don't watch the film or whatever IP it is don't watch it don't listen to it I want you to all to go away and write down 10 things that you remember from it and what you will find out of those 10 things there will be usually five things that's very common between all of us and that's where we start because if that's what the common core is that means the common core is probably going to fit everyone else so that's how we approach it and then honestly when it comes to the shots it's called Whitewood play it sucks move on Whitewood sucks move on and just keep doing that not too bad exactly apparently I have the worst outlanes in the industry so curious as Aigner work worked with like video games but I've never done anything was curious how that's different yeah it's it's very fluid to be frank with you I I think that some people think that you you build the game you build a layout and you build everything you want in the game and then you and then you figure out what property you're going to attach to this game and and uh that's absolutely not what happens uh it's it's very unique to whatever whatever whatever that is I mean this just all these Pathways like it wouldn't make sense for that same kind of Pathways for I don't know blood Zeppelin uh so so the entire process and where you would start and finish is going to be different uh and I think it it it shows uh okay what is this thing going to represent why would it be over here like the fact that you have the the goblin City and the castle behind the goblin city is is movie is constantly talking about this and it's there and it's in a specific area all on that that left spinner yeah and and we're not very Clos minded either like everyone actually gets to have a say now we do have a lead and there's a you know yes or no situation but I firmly believe from someone on the line to my wife or my kid can have a great idea and everyone should have an opportunity to voice that doesn't mean it's right for this game but like we literally have a wall a blue sky wall where if you have an idea stick it up there because you don't know if that idea is going to trigger somethingone CSE down the roide so question back AB ABS no I'm open to anything but I won't sacrifice the company for it oh absolutely I mean I can't say anything Mo on I just was going to reference something I can't yeah yeah we're doing that thing no no it so uh you mentioned you were working with uh you know material scientists and and Fabricators and um there's not a lot of exotic materials I can I can see there I mean is that really it there's no reason for that I know in some of the machines that we can see out there on the floor there's a lot of different kinds of you know injection molded Plastics and you know you've got you know wooden and composite Parts you know that are parts of of toys and other displays and sub uh you know uh uh playfields and things like that um just really found that you know the conventional stuff is is best or just well I don't want to like if I through some C here it's completely different different cabinet or different just anything right you as collectors will be like that's crap because there's Nostalgia for it right so ideally what will happen in 10 years time you'll look back at this and go holy crap it's really different but again why do we love pinball we love this form factor you know this is playable art you know this is something we're proud of that we having a house when someone comes in they like do they still make pinball absolutely they do do you I spent nearly two years talking to vendors first of all they like you make what and B they still make that and you want us to make that and like I would literally spend weeks educating vendors of what we do so there's the downfall being in Houston to be honest because in Chicago then you have those resources so but no like I don't want to radically change it I just want to find a way how can we tell better stories how can we make the experience a lot better any other questions oh look there there thing I I have question um is there an IP that you would really like to do like so no no no actually you know what I will answer that because we we were in uh San Francisco with Adam and we shot the uh the video for him and we're in a car driving to a non-disclosed location and uh they go David what are you really excited about like what license are you excited about and I was just sitting there cuz you go remember this is kind of coming off getting this all set up and hey I was tired but it was like I I honestly don't know I mean we have multiples going still and they would call off all these licenses and when you're in the business you go no because that person is dead or no that music like that whole album has three different bands in it which means it's three separate licenses on top of the license for the IP including the video assets now we're also going to get the voiceover assets to that and honestly you start losing the The Joy like like there is a thing when like you guys are the privileg you guys you can imagine anything and nothing can stop you when you're running a company you're like but I still love everything I do it's like I can't wait for you guys to see the next four games you know I mean we literally were flipping the Whitewood in the office today and it's just there's nothing like that feeling like you get tired I mean I mean no lie not to Pat myself on the back but I go home around 700 I go to bed at 10:00 I'm awake at 2: you know responding to vendors and stuff like that then I get into the office around 8 cuz I want to see the boys off to the school and that cycle happens every day except Saturday Sundays but I still wake up too because now my body's set that way but I would not change it for the world and when we got that Whitewood up and running it was just like going right back to square one nothing can stop us let's do this I'm going to stay late I don't need dinner let's just you know let's just play this thing you know so sorry SRA that's what I I thought you said it sucked oh it does okay Travis our our engineer who laid this out I like I walked up on it I was like with a Mark he's like this this this and he just looks at me all do he's like dude this is just number one don't worry about it it's all good you know how many white Woods do you think you'll need I think we can get away four on this one this is yeah this this do the do the versions of this that had the exactly count I would say actually it's about six on this okay yeah so some other designers have been in here some other companies and every company's different and they were overjoy tools that they where they were never so what actually so my background is I did a lot uh foam core um and that's something I learned from Ben heck and John papuk and it's probably one of the best tools I've ever learned because it allow you to see it and execute it and you can tell what it's going to be like um but what we introduced at the company was solid works the good thing about Sol works is you can tell if something doesn't fit it will tell you you cannot fit that in there so bringing in solw works at a huge expense because it's not cheap but has saved us multiple revisions because I would have never seen that in all foam core at all or at AutoCAD you know and but the funny thing is if you do sidew works is like cuz our team uses Sol Works they're really confident in it so when they put this Whitewood together you know I walk up to it it's like when you physically see it from all angles it doesn't shoot like solar Works doesn't you don't see it so that's why it's really important to do that Whitewood because then you can go well that's definitely the wrong angle well but we got all these lines cuz you know so funny is Travis has all these lines off the fli off the flipper like so you know this scientifically should be spot on and then like you you print it out you've got it in things like then you can already see where that's going to have a conflict so volumetrically those tools are very good but when it comes down to picking an an shot you just got you got to play it you got to shoot it you know and you can't have you you got you got to have thick skin because people will crap I mean that's so the big biggest downfall I think for the Labyrinth is we had so many really really good players play it because again Bowen's already at the wizard mode right Phil like Travis like all that people that are working with us are very very good players and the game has is set up to be almost like a tournament playing game which makes it very hard for the Casual player to come up and experience it but I think there's enough human it people can get over and they want to keep playing it I will tell you the second game we're changing that I'm making sure like if you don't set the game up properly it's going to pay play perfectly Labyrinth does need to be set up correctly to get the maximum value out of it in my opinion now I realize like a lot of people are buying this game are buying pinball for the first time I've had a literally five calls like I got to put legs on this but hey I just grown the market that's actually what makes me excited these people have never bought a pinball machine before and now they've bought my game that's a you know that makes me feel pretty awesome a lot responsibility yeah go to the one F the back uh building or selling out selling we are close let's put it this way it makes me it's a hard decision because two thoughts in it we don't need to sell out to be successful in fact if we sold out day one week two week three honestly we did a bad job because we totally underestimated what we were doing right so I actually think we called the number really really well the biggest challenge I have now is do I wait it out or I just call it when game two is ready to go so it's like you know I honestly I think 1100 is actually a low number if you think of how many games are actually made I think longterm we'll sell them out pretty easily but at the same time I'm really anxious to get to the next one so the second absolutely not I only got a limited time on this planet there is too many games I want to make and I want to work with amazing people and I don't want to waste their time tinkering on this there's too many cool stuff to do what would what would Bri what would Brian say about that same question oh absolutely not the but but for a different reason I think because he would say also that uh anytime that happens you are kicking all the people who trusted you in the balls basically uh or or other parts of their body uh that's and it's like you trust that this is a collectible that has value and if if and it has a limited a number in a size and then if something changes all of a sudden that number is doubled or tripled because there's profit in it nope where is that profit coming at the expense of all those people I will tell you now if I wanted to make money I would have done pinball like if I wanted really to be rich I could have put the money elsewhere but this is not about money this is about making cool stuff of cool people and I truly believe I'm investing in my people everything else will follow kind of crazy but that's what I do you're welcome bud I I just um I know this is going to be a pretty general question but are there any toys that you put in the system that you may have wanted to improve do differently or maybe triy everything or maybe tried maybe tried out and when this just was a total disaster get rid of it so no I mean everything is working how it is the servos so the servos is a really interesting thing we tested nearly uh we went over 400,000 Cycles with those servos with double amount of weight on them nothing failed in fact we burned out uh the um controllers not the servos these servos in the games out in the real world have been the biggest pain in the butt and we tested them multiples um in fact we're talking to another vendor that's going to supply us another one so again we're not going to you know if something happens to you survey we'll send you a new one probably send you three um but we can't predict what we're getting out of the vendor and they yeah I don't think you'll see too many servos in game two or three but can I add some of this go for it so this being the first game from a new company reliability is a huge issue uh and so a lot of the things that involved servos or or that type of movement they are uh they're not directly ball Interactive like when you drain down that left out lane and you get angry and then the thing comes out and says hey where you going and you're and you're like oh yeah that's funny uh that if that broke you would still be able to play the game no problem so I think one of the things that was a priority in this game is to to make sure that everything worked really well and stayed working really well from day one of receiving a game and I that's that's that to me is a huge success of this machine to have a brand new company make was know 150 or so based on the number that's out there uh we just crossed 170 something GA Factory so we're heading games being received and working and a fully ball interactive toy and not that there isn't anything interactive with the ball like the forks and and the Yello and all that but uh the types of things I think of when I think of a toy like Rudy's mouth which can't eat the ball um sorry um those kind of interactive toys are really hard to make and they're really hard to make well and make make certain that they're going to work and I I think and we test everything that's the Pointon like you have to test this stuff over and over again so fully interactive toy didn't really work out so you didn't put yeah so everything that's in this was actually from the get-go in fact it actually got more stuff what is frustrating is the servos is like we literally tested these and now they suck so it's like but again we'll figure it out back I have watched more the movie more times than probably anyone here from when I first discovered it and throughout the movie um but the team that I had honestly I had didn't have to watch it because most of the people on this team love this IP so I honestly could take my hands off the wheel and they would just go with it I was like well there's also uh passes you make looking for either all of the dialogue that that is useful and isolated or specific things you want to do in the in the video like there's a great thing at the end of bog where like the Game Stops for seven or eight seconds while a dog while while alishes just crosses and passes through like excuse me yeah but the thing is like we enjoy that like we like these Easter eggs we like having experience es you know and this is what this is about that's what makes pinball special to me like you can have a video game you learn the pattern and you're done pinball every time you play it there's something new there's something different D good to meet you how you doing my pinb um can you talk to us about your shipping uh model business model I know you were Drop Shipping to save a lot of money which was very well appreciated by the user can you tell us a little bit more about what's happening in the future regards to that I mean the shipping so uh got noticed of you know there like another damaged game so that's always fun um the shipping situation is interesting because there's so many things happening in that side of it that we didn't even anticipate at all um and then also so all our direct customers we deal directly and we have you know you know take care of it and um and then the vendors the Distributors they have their own people they like to use so honestly right now it's chaos because we've got to wait for BLS to come from the vendor you know from the distributor they don't necessarily get it correctly and we have now something we learned about our new Matrix this week is we have Distributors that have bought games but their customer has bought Toppers and mirror backl but they bought it directly from us so then all of a sudden realized because it goes free with the game because the top goes on top back glass goes inside of it no shipping cost so we didn't think about that they were going to do that so of course we shipped it to them for free because that's our fault we didn't think of that how you can do that same with t-shirts we realized that people wanted to buy T-shirts and we had the option to ship it with your game and guess what 90% of the people chose ship it with their game and that's like ah gosh now we have to watch what the t-shirts is that's okay but these are things you just don't think about in shipping um no different with Distributors like we honestly thought we were pretty you know we had a good game plan bringing this game to Market but I had no idea the world of what distributor was going to be like I had no idea how the shipping was going to be handled like I couldn't even get FedEx UPS xbo anyone's even talk to me well what are you [ __ ] I was like well this is what I predict well get back to us after that okay like okay that's awesome thanks and honestly to this day I don't deal with FedEx because they've they've given me four different accounts none of them talk to each other in fact I literally had a convers this week about hey they gave me a quote from my LTL log in to approve it couldn't approve it because they didn't recognize the account number and I'm like I'm sorry but I cannot deal with this I rather just go with an independent because I just don't have time to do it and you know it's not being being arrogant it's just like I literally just don't have time to do it so I know it doesn't ask you a question but it's actually a very interesting question thanks for asking is's contract or is he a full employ well he's a contractor but I consider him fulltime but he has a day job as well so should we go to the wizard mode you want it or you want me to do it dude you want me to drain in 2 minutes no no sorry 30 seconds let's be honest I it' be kind of funny yeah no no all right blow it up Bowen very well so to get to uh Goblin City you have to play not not win if they did it's probably because of your breath Mar everyone this is Mark yeah Marc Silk who's done all sorts of Voice work in TV and movies and I call him Bob the Builder but he doesn't like that no he does he but he says he's the American po the [Laughter] Builder but he is he American no he's not American so how come you have he did the American Bob the Builder that's well yes he can all right so to start Goblin City you shoot the spinner after uh defeat the giant gate gum to enter the city so if you've seen the movie this is this is the near climax of the movie where they're going through the city and there's three phases here that correspond to the different to the different um you know maybe it maybe it messes up because I uh I had it off off there for so long what's going on the B is missing game is looking for that's my fault have J stol it what did you say about 30 seconds next time I will play he's just kind of looking down going like where's the ball o that was terrible that's we had a Q&A oh awful um you can play Goblin City a second time by going back through all the modes again and uh continuing from there let's see if we can get uh ready let's see if we can get uh some more mystery Awards music the mystery award is just these two purple targets not that one nope and uh so why did you insist on this particular thing for the uh for the Y why do I want the mod yeah why do you want this are you going to get it now let's see I'm hoping I'm hoping we get it right now yeah there you go the K's hot that's will nice check it's on a hurry up I forgot about this part you can mess it up in this not play better B I know right there you go oh 50,000 so this is a mode that probably should never exist but like through the film like the movie is like he invites you Sarah in for a cup of tea and she never does it so I felt like this was the perfect opportunity to have tea with ELO so it was funny I was s Henson to approve and they saw the first clip of this and like yeah when not like just everything's fine but are you guys really going to do tea time with ELO in the game I like absolutely we are and they were completely Tickle Pink but again I've always wanted to have tea with him and the misses so right now Bowen should be oh he you failed yeah it's over all right so so basically you add sugar and milk to your tea why because we can that's good that's how I want to do it it's a another extra ball you sure you want to play more no you want to play it get out of here no you want to see it you know that's fine or friend multiball I'll there you go have a friend have a friend multiball multiple starting i h there's uh five Bowie songs in the game uh this this one is underground which has some parts are really fast other parts that are not you kind of identify like Loops that you want to use that's this is good one more shot and you're doing better than me o multiball is ready I hope they don't start it I love this music appreciate it I BR you okay so B what did you think when I said hey let's do Labyrinth yeah when uh David said let's do Labyrinth I was like wait what that that's oh um I had never seen the movie and uh I was like what's even this movie is in it like no this no one knows this movie who knows this movie Why um but I think I think I changed my mind a little bit once once there was laughing once there was laughing m that's pretty that's pretty good just goblins that yell at you you got it right there you're all set uh I think the topper is what which one of them is Statler no comment it's but but that that like what I'm thinking of like when we were WR writing the script for the the topper was like what would what kind of insults would would they would they L with the player and then all right let's throw some of those up here and then they insult each other just as well like you're bad breath there you're not good to pinball you can't even move at least my head moves you don't even move at [Music] all does Mike what the guy arm oh guy the the guy whose job it was to to do the to do the the the fondler is that um now I'm afraid not nor do uh the individuals who uh played any of the Muppets uh it's just one of those General movie license I'm sure they they get an overall license from overall royalty from the movie but nothing special yeah that that's an interesting story about like those shots where there's this juggling going on and it's it's almost like operating David Bowie as a muppet just pretty pretty boss magic any other [Music] questions I don't know anything special about it beyond what I've seen in the in like variety and a couple other places there there is some discussion publicly about a uh a lab sequel but uh I don't [Music] know I so the original conversation so when it comes to licensing she take okay never mind yeah yeah I'll good Jobo skir question do I get to put my name in this is the highest SC I've ever gotten on this game with the glass on all right well hopefully they'll hopefully they'll tell you what initials to put in I Comm you have I seen such unfortunately I do you though so unfortunately the game is currently set for three letters Max so no PG setting so talking to licensers getting a license is not just walking in and just saying hey we want this IP here's the money that can happen that way but it generally doesn't so a lot of licensing is relationships so conversations with licenses can start there's a license I've been dealing with I've been talking for them over 10 years um so it's it's one of those things of uh you just talk to them and you find out what they're doing you know their kids' names and you just it's a relationship building licensing at one on one I mean yeah there is a very corporate of big corporation pay the money they give it to you well may give it to you but I I feel like the good license is about relationships don't know that didn't answer your question but there is a difficulty with you know you don't pursue certain licenses because the guys are dead but two guys on your back glass are dead yeah no and it comes down to how big they are there's there's uh Estates that are really easy to deal with and then there's Estates that think they're worth a million dollars and if I could and realistically if I could pay them if I knew there was if I could make a great product and I knew that the money would be recouped I would pay for it like there's no amount of money I would not pay for something if I make believe it will make a fantastic product the question is will it make me go bankrupt oh I'm broken down in percentages in a perfect world perfect world 10 bucks no actually like I've we've got a license right now that's absolutely free it would have cost someone else more money but they saw what we did and they believe that we can make a great product again we we approach these guys is because we want to be the sidow of pinball we want to be the ultimate collectible of that IP for that brand would you ever do a kind of points set up for like interesting ideas yeah no it so it has so that does happen oh um but they also think it's going to sell like 100 they think it's a T-shirt and you know I I could make more money making t-shirts for sure even though how much this cost don't get me wrong I realize how expensive this is but there's just a lot of love and detail that goes into this and again I just love making a world underglass like realistically as a filmmaker that's my background I got to direct a sequel to Labyrinth and they don't even know it cuz if I went and tell them I want to make a labyrinth sequel they would have never given me the option to do that I got to do it right here but I got to make a story for each individual person playing it not just one actor do you think the industry makes t-shirts or do you think the majority of are World makers they are all do the best they absolutely can I've got friends everywhere but there's some that are controlled more as a corporation you know cuz they've got people they got to be responsible to they got a board of directors um and there's people that I just everyone's trying to do the best they absolutely can and that's not being political because I've Got Friends everyone there I got friends at every company and uh we're making the best product we can it's just a lot of people people follow each other I we want to make something different even though it's in the same format same form factor but we really want to do something different and to that point is there a li you feel like that current like no no I'm I'm very happy of everything we're doing I just wish there are easy ways to get where where we are like there's just just a day-to-day things of thing like now that we have the 20,000 ft facility that we are now adding on to to make up for the demand but dealing we got just under 2,000 individual pieces in this game with 60 plus vendors that all operate different time zones that have different qc's or didn't meet QC for one day because someone was sick I have to get involved in that on a daily level that's probably the hardest thing for me right now is I want to make sure it's the best product possible and I've got my fingers on everything and I've got to delegate better and this is just being frank with you guys and we will get better because we're hiring I mean we're hiring now we we've been hiring for 12 months um and it's just one of those things of I just want to make the process easier and it's just hard when you're dealing with that many parts and different vendors so is there a limitation the limit a is it's just it's so broad it's again t-shirt you're making a t-shirt it's uh buy the fabric have a screen s uh screen you know Marc Silk screen Place put it in a box ship it to you I have 15 people on the line taking 2,000 Parts every day making four five games a day five would you think about making a wide body if if it absolutely for what you wanted gosh I would make pimble circus if I could I just know there's no market for it well there is a market for it but not enough to cover cost would you think it would be worthwhile for you to make a wide body yeah if the if the story allows for it like the team when they put it together and it if it shoots well and the story is right and it fits the the the world under glass absolutely what about super narrow body he wants to go I think he's done two more questions and we'll wrap it up make that none oh there we go any more plans with the Jim hon family uh talk to them every week one more question were you surprised at how well you're able to keep this game no my team's awesome I knew like again I would have wouldn't be working with them if I didn't trust them congratulations so no look I'm nothing these guys is what makes this company and they're the ones I'm investing in and I hope you enjoy the product thank you very