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End of 2023 Interview with Zen's Mel Kirk

BlahCade Pinball Podcast·podcast_episode·32m 10s·analyzed·Dec 18, 2023
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claude-haiku-4-5-20251001 · $0.030

TL;DR

Zen Studios reflects on record 2023 output and pivots 2024 toward platform expansion and new licensing deals.

Summary

Mel Kirk from Zen Studios discusses a remarkably busy 2023 featuring the Nintendo Switch launch, Pinball M release, 30+ new tables, and major licensing partnerships with Paramount (Star Trek, South Park) and AtGames for arcade cabinets. Zen plans a slower 2024 with ~15 tables and expanded focus on VR, mobile, and new distribution platforms, including simultaneous FX/Pinball M releases and a Texas Chain Saw Massacre digital title following the Netflix film.

Key Claims

  • Pinball M was originally targeted for Halloween 2023 but delayed due to licensing team issues and member departures at other companies

    high confidence · Mel Kirk directly confirmed Halloween target and attribution to licensing delays

  • Zen released over 30 tables in 2023, with 11 released in the final two weeks

    high confidence · Mel Kirk and hosts discuss reaching 'high 20s, low 30s' with confirmation of 11 tables in last two weeks

  • Zen plans approximately 15 table releases in 2024, representing a slower cadence than 2023

    high confidence · Mel Kirk: 'You'll see probably 15 tables next year' and 'We will not have as many table releases in 2024'

  • Paramount is now a 'fairly significant partner' for Zen, with Star Trek, South Park re-release, and Twilight Zone licenses

    high confidence · Mel Kirk lists multiple Paramount licenses and characterizes as significant partner

  • Film licensing for digital tables requires separate licensing teams, actor approval, and astronomical fees for archive clip extraction

    high confidence · Mel Kirk describes licensing difficulty on par with music licensing and specifics about talent approval and archive costs

  • Zen is developing a mobile app expected to launch in 2024 using a simple buy-or-ad-support monetization model

    high confidence · Mel Kirk: 'I think you'll see it in 2024' and explains learned lessons from Williams game

  • Zen is planning 'something very big' in VR for 2024

    medium confidence · Mel Kirk: 'I'm very hopeful for something very big in VR in 2024' - vague forward-looking statement

  • Texas Chain Saw Massacre digital table follows Netflix/Legendary Pictures film version, while Spooky's physical version is based on original film

    high confidence · Mel Kirk clarifies the two versions are based on different source materials within same IP licensing estate

Notable Quotes

  • “We need to do something fresh and new and make pinball feel fresh again because it feels like we're maybe doing the same things over and over.”

    Mel Kirk @ ~9:00 — Articulates core philosophy behind Pinball M platform as creative reset for Zen Studios

  • “Film clips from film and television is very difficult, actually. There's entirely different licensing teams from the games group that we have to go through. We have to get some actor approval or talent approval, and then there are fees on top of that just to pull the clips that are pretty astronomical.”

    Mel Kirk @ ~25:00 — Explains major barrier to HD video implementation in digital tables, industry-wide constraint

  • “I'm a software company. I want to be working with the best in class hardware company and somehow marry us together so that it's an integrated solution.”

    Mel Kirk @ ~38:00 — Explains strategic rationale for AtGames partnership over Arcade1Up

  • “It is so bizarre. They're different versions of the same IP... We had nothing to do. We had never talked about this.”

    Mel Kirk @ ~67:00 — Describes coincidental simultaneous Texas Chain Saw Massacre announcements by Zen and Spooky

  • “We will not have as many table releases in 2024 as we saw in 2023. We need to focus on expanded distribution, which we just mentioned—VR and mobile.”

    Mel Kirk @ ~56:00 — Signals strategic pivot from volume to platform expansion in 2024

  • “The process of building our own unit was to one, have fun with it, and for us to really understand what our community faces when they're building a unit and how we can better support them with features.”

    Mel Kirk @ ~36:00 — Explains R&D rationale for Zen's internal arcade cabinet building project

  • “Licensors are still kind of trying to understand the virtual pinball space... trying to understand why would somebody buy a branded unit with an IP and then they can play other games on it that are different IPs?”

    Mel Kirk — Highlights IP holder confusion about multi-game cabinet ecosystem, industry education gap

Entities

Mel KirkpersonChris Rebus (Shut Your Trap)personJared MorganpersonZen StudioscompanyPinball MproductPinball FXproductStar TrekgameTexas Chain Saw MassacregameAtGamescompanyParamountcompanySpooky Pinballcompany

Signals

  • ?

    business_signal: Zen Studios pivoting strategic focus from content volume to platform expansion (VR, mobile, AtGames distribution) in 2024

    high · Mel Kirk: 'We need to focus on expanded distribution... It's important that the games are available everywhere just for the health of revenue and the health of the company'

  • ?

    event_signal: Zen Studios planning mobile app launch in 2024 with simplified monetization model (buy outright or ad-supported) based on lessons learned from Williams game implementation

    high · Mel Kirk: 'I think you'll see it in 2024... I just want to make it simple. You can buy tables or you can play with advertising'

  • ?

    licensing_signal: Film/TV licensing for digital pinball tables requires separate licensing infrastructure from game licensing, talent approval, and astronomical archive clip extraction fees equivalent to music licensing complexity

    high · Mel Kirk: 'There's entirely different licensing teams... get some actor approval... fees on top of that... pretty astronomical... on the level of music licensing'

  • ?

    licensing_signal: Paramount emerging as major strategic partner for Zen with multiple simultaneous licenses (Star Trek, South Park re-release, Twilight Zone); licensing complexity requiring extended deal development timelines

    high · Mel Kirk: 'They're in their Star Trek... Twilight Zone is with them as well... fairly significant partner for us now' and notes Star Trek 'took a long time' due to multiple decision makers

  • $

    market_signal: Zen Studios undertook internal arcade cabinet building project to understand community DIY ecosystem and inform product support decisions for future cabinet partnerships

Transcript

groq_whisper · $0.096

0:00
blockade pinball podcast this is the blockade pimple podcast i'm your host chris rebus aka shut your trap joining me as always halfway across the world it's jared morgan well hey there everyone how's it going uh i'm doing just good you're doing just good but uh guess what Jared, we have one other person that hopefully is doing good. It's Mel Kirk.
0:33
Hey, guys. Good to be with you. Hey, Mel. It's been a spell. I was looking at our notes, and I was like, oh, my gosh, it's been a year. I was going to say, how has it been a year already? I was going to say it's been a minute, but I guess it's been a year. Yeah, it feels like a minute. That's for sure. Jeez.
0:52
Just a few things have happened in that past year. Let's see if we have the Switch launch. we had pinball m drop uh obviously a whole mess of games that you guys released and then the whole mess of games you guys just released yeah yeah there's there's a lot uh we've certainly been busy um all these things were put into production uh a while ago it's good to see them uh coming out and uh release a lot of stuff that we were sitting on for a long time we want to talk about. Yes, it's definitely been busy. I'm very curious because I know a lot of people were wondering with Pinball M, was that initially targeted to be for Halloween and just missed the date by a few weeks? Yeah, honestly, we were targeting a Halloween launch.
1:43
Well, a lot of things have slowed down in the industry this last year. For example, we had some issues with licensing and whatnot. Other licensing teams lost team members, so they were slower to approve things, and just all that kind of stuff rolled into delays. I thought it was going to be actually delayed a lot more than it was, but the teams did a lot of magic and got it out basically one month past all. The reception so far to Pinball M has been seemingly pretty good. I mean, like, there's a lot that people are loving about it. we have been theorizing that this is kind of a testbed for things that might eventually find their way into pinball effects. Is that kind of the idea behind it, or is it just completely some separate beast and you guys are just running with it? No, I think your thoughts are definitely correct there. You know, we saw with pinball effects a certain kind of reception, and then when we were breaking ground on pinball M, it was actually towards the end of early access of And I just, you know, we kind of looked at each other and we just said we need to do something fresh and new and make pinball feel fresh again because it feels like we're maybe doing the same things over and over. And so I turned the team loose and just said, you know, bring back a plan for new ideas and innovation. And they did that and they were able to execute that. And it's great to see a good reception. Our user scores are very high. Press scores are very high. So it feels like we did something fresh and new, and this is a step in the direction to get people playing pinball again.

Zen and Spooky independently launched Texas Chain Saw Massacre demos on the same day with no prior coordination

high confidence · Mel Kirk emphasizes coincidental timing and lack of collaboration despite being 'very friendly'

@ ~48:00

  • “It felt like we're launching something every couple of weeks or preparing to do that every couple of weeks and then delaying it internally. So it was like we're always in launch mode, but this entire year felt like we never could stop being in launch mode.”

    Mel Kirk @ ~72:00 — Reflects on unsustainable production/release cadence of 2023

    • Unreal Engine 4product
    Arcade1Upcompany
    RockChipproduct
    South Parkgame
    Twilight Zonegame
    Addams Familygame
    Terraforming Marsgame

    high · Mel Kirk: 'The process of building our own unit was to one, have fun with it, and for us to really understand what our community faces when they're building a unit'

  • ?

    community_signal: Potential Spooky Pinball and Zen Studios industry convergence through discussion of cross-studio licensing collaboration (Looney Tunes exploration mentioned) following Spooky appearance on Pinball Bites

    medium · Hosts speculate on Spooky/Zen relationship; Mel Kirk confirms 'very friendly and have had lots of ideas' but dismisses Texas Chain Saw Massacre collaboration as 'coincidental'

  • ?

    announcement: Zen Studios confirming ~15 table releases planned for 2024 across Pinball FX and Pinball M, representing deliberate reduction from 30+ in 2023

    high · Mel Kirk: 'We will not have as many table releases in 2024 as we saw in 2023... you'll see probably 15 tables next year'

  • ?

    product_strategy: Zen Studios introducing simultaneous Pinball FX and Pinball M releases bundled together, allowing cross-platform play with tamed-down FX version and full-featured M version

    medium · Mel Kirk: 'We're going to try to do something where we launch a table in FX and M simultaneously, and you get both—like they're bundled. So if you buy one you get it together'

  • ?

    rumor_hype: VR expansion planned for Zen Studios in 2024; Mel Kirk indicates 'something very big' but provides no specifics regarding platform, scope, or feature set

    medium · Mel Kirk: 'I'm very hopeful for something very big in VR in 2024'; host notes waiting to purchase VR hardware until announcement made

  • ?

    technology_signal: Zen Studios' adoption of Unreal Engine 4 for Pinball M with steep learning curve but enabling advanced graphics (HDR, ray tracing, NVIDIA Reflex); visual capabilities now exceeding Pinball FX

    high · Mel Kirk confirms 'took a lot longer than we thought' with steep learning curve; hosts note Pinball M visuals 'feel that little bit more mature than FX'

    • 3:24
    So Pimble.im definitely is a very fresh and new experience, and the thing that's really attracting me to that particular platform are the Pimble.im unique modes in it. There seems to be a lot of fresh ideas floating around with those modes, like the, you know, building up your score, you know, and then having it eaten down, you know, like a progressively more aggressive count. That's some really innovative gameplay. That's all thought about from the team. That was a team suggestion that that's how it works. Yeah, it was. All those ideas came from the group working on Pinball M. And these guys, some of them were working, worked on Pinball FX, but others have been working on other projects at Xen. And then we just wanted to get some fresh ideas. And, you know, sometimes when you're looking at things, so closely and you're so close to it, you don't get the fresh ideas. So these guys definitely came up with things. And then, yeah, I would say that those score modes and the kind of the progression of each table and how you have different challenges and things that is basically a story that goes along with each one. You know, those are all things that I think add a lot of value to each table that you're buying and playing. And it makes it more fun. I mean, I just think that the game is really fun. I think that we can work on those things into FX because the KPIs are definitely smiling at us with those, right? Yeah, absolutely. The KPIs are the key.
    4:53
    I'd imagine that, you know, like any experiment that the studio runs, there's a lot of tracking happening in that app and not bad tracking like Google tracking, just like what modes are working the best, what ones seemed to be played the most. And we had a similar discussion about this when Pinball FX came out, and there was some surprising statistics coming out about what modes were actually popular versus what the community was talking about.
    5:23
    I'm just wondering, at this early stage, I know it is very early, what seems to be a frontrunner in that game, if you can talk about that? Yeah, play corners are very popular in all the customizations, and like your profile customization. I mean, we went to new levels that we'd never tapped into before because we really wanted to bring the IP out as well and let players like have fun things to do with the IP and situate the pinball setup itself to be a space that felt very alive and rewarding. It seems like people really like that. They're spending time on their player customization and they're doing the play corner updates. Also just these new modes, the campaigns that go along with each table, it's clear that was a good idea. People like to dig in and be challenged with specific parts of the table and then the daily challenges. And the way the whole thing is working together, we see really, really good results. I imagine you've got a shiver mode takes off because I really want that in FX. It's great.
    6:28
    It really looks amazing. The lighting is, it feels like the team has learned a lot from using, like onboarding into Unreal Engine 4 and then sort of taking that experience and putting that into PimpleM. Because it feels, like from a visual perspective, it just feels that little bit more mature than FX. And I'm sure that, again, this is like going all in, trying new things. But it'll be really interesting to, like Chris said, Shiver looks amazing. and you know with the capabilities of unreal engine 4 you've got this ability to really ramp up the visuals we've already seen it with pimble m like with the hdr and ray tracing and all the nvidia reflex stuff all the tech that's been put into m over the last couple of months as you've been becoming more comfortable with the platform that's you know really made a difference I think, to how the game feels and sort of how it's perceived. So I'm seeing a lot of positive feedback about that just in the Discord itself happening. Yeah. Well, thank you for saying that. It was a long process. It took a lot longer than we thought. I think I've said this to you guys before to get everybody up to speed with Unreal. It's not a simple just changeover in new technology and everything works the way you would expect. So learning curve was steep, but we got the experience now and I think that we able to do the things that we originally envisioned The other thing that I noticed that I really think that you finally came into your own on was that HD video display for judgment and the thing It was just like, oh, that's exactly what you guys should be doing. It's like now it looks like a modern Stern or a Jericho Jack. I mean, or a Spooky. I mean, it's like, dad, this is what people are doing. So that's really exciting to see that. and then how you're implementing that. Just other, I mean, I'm trying to think, with any of the new Star Trek tables, is there, Jared, do you, is there actually video in those or is it just graphics? I can't even, I'm trying to think. I think Deep Space Nine has a little bit of vision in it and the Star Trek table, like the OG Star Trek table, doesn't really have a great deal, but it's the Deep Space Nine table, which I think as far as video assets, and you can correct us if we're wrong here, Mel, but it feels like that's the most deeply integrated with the show. And even it sounds like original voice actors, not that you can confirm that, obviously, but it sounds really on point. So if they're sound-alikes, they're very, very good sound-alikes.
    9:10
    Yeah, there are clips throughout the Star Trek tables from each of the respective materials. Some of them are modified in a way so that it might not look like the film, and there's issues with talent and whatnot being shown. The HD video player is an awesome idea, but in practice to get film clips from film, television, is very difficult, actually. There's entirely different licensing teams from the games group that we have to go through. We have to get some actor approval or talent approval, and then there's fees on top of that just to pull the clips that are pretty astronomical because you have a team that will go back into the archives and cut very specific clips out.
    9:56
    You think that we might be able to just do our own cuts. You know, hey, we got our spec that we just cut straight from a Blu-ray or something, and no, you can't do that.
    10:06
    Licensing is always hard. We know this, Mel, right? This is very difficult. I'd say it's on the level of music.
    10:12
    Oh, wow, okay. Something. One of the things with me just going, Wait, is it there or not? Because literally so many tables just dropped, like 14 tables in the span of a week, something like that. I haven't had time to really dive into any of them and then sink in and recall what is happening in any of these. It's like, dang.
    10:36
    One of the things that I've been recently going through, though, Mel, was going through our old podcast and our old interviews.
    10:43
    And that includes our first interview with you. and it's interesting because one of the things that we asked you was hey if you guys secure one of these big licenses does that mean that you'll be able to make other tables beyond just what you know the williams valley version is and you're like yeah yeah we should be able to do that and i think the star trek one is the first time that a it happened and b completely calling us off guard we were like whoa hey yeah great yeah uh yeah so we actually have a lot in that works with Paramount. We did the re-release of South Park. Yes. So they're in their Star Trek, and I'd have to go down my list.
    11:23
    They're a fairly significant partner for us now. Twilight Zone is with them as well. Yeah. There's others. I'd have to look at it. But yeah, Star Trek took a long time to do. It's a massive universe with a lot of people associated with it, a lot of decision makers. and you know some other delays hopefully I'm not frozen yeah there we go okay yeah hopefully no internet problems today so yes but Star Trek it's just one of those it takes a long time so we were you know and then we had Game Night Pinball come out and Charlie Brown I would say that that whole December 7th day was supposed to look different and some of were supposed to release earlier in the year.
    12:16
    It makes me wonder. So the one thing that we have noticed this year, and I probably have my guesses as to why it's happened, but there has been definitely a slowdown in the Williams releases this year to an extent. And I'm just wondering if this partnership and this sort of pattern we're seeing with like Star Trek table and these licensed Williams properties and their tie-ins and the other tables,
    12:45
    the other ones that we see will actually have that sort of integration coming back again. And we actually get to see a couple of extra table releases on top of the core Williams brand and the Williams license.
    13:00
    Is that, can you actually talk to that? Is that sort of the plan with some of the delays or is it just because, you know, Stuff needs to be shifted around. Licensed partners need to have their tables out when they have a due date. You know, there's deals to be made and things that you've got to do, I guess. So can you speak more about that? It's a combination of things. When we want to do a one-off third-party licensed Williams table with a big licensing partner, it's usually not enough to get a deal done. They want to see something bigger on the table. and so we present them with a bigger plan and more tables based on different ips so that they will let us do the williams third party so that's you know that's this but how about doing new star trek games at the same time and so uh we have to you know we sign that deal we commit to the dev timeline and yeah that so maybe that's why the williams uh non-third-party releases were slower this year. I think we did some of the biggest ones this year. Twilight Zone, Star Trek.
    14:03
    Was Adam's Family this year? No, it was Christmas. It was Christmas last year. Just out of this year, but still a monumental release, and we know that Adam's Family is not the easiest one. Was World Cup? No. That was last year. I'm not sure.
    14:20
    I have to look. Okay, Twilight Zone was this year. and we are getting into the pointy end of some of these Williams releases now we are there's not a lot of unlicensed themes left on the table really is there on the D&D stuff I mean sure there's probably some throw in but you know we're still dealing with like licenses either way you look basically so there's a few big ones that are that need to be done and will be done. There's also something that I'm really excited about, a Williams third-party license that will extend into original games as well, which I think is really big and really exciting.
    15:08
    Let's talk about one other thing that me and Jared both noticed, and that was with the Terraforming Mars table. That looks a lot like Mars. And I'm wondering, can we technically call that a sequel to your Mars table? I wouldn't like, but I mean, I could see why that comparison or, you know, that statement could be made. But I think working with FireAxis, you know, ideas that we latched on to. So it wasn't, you know, I don't think anyone sat down and said or maybe looked at it and said, is this too much like Mars? Is this considered a sequel or a spiritual successor? but, um, you know, I can definitely see the comparison. Okay. Um, let switch gears entirely here Uh obviously the other gigantic announcement uh comes along with you guys partnering with AtGames into putting cabinets out in the space there Just wondering what you want to share. How did that whole thing come about? What are you hoping for from it? What can we look forward to? well it was clear to me that the team at games is taking pinball very seriously and so uh i want to work with the best in class pinball partners in the world uh felt like arcade one up didn't really care uh about the pinball space so uh i went to some things out and found that we had a lot in common and there we go um with dealing with the cabinet there um obviously you guys were also already going into figuring out some uh cabinet mode stuff on your own having you know a question lena building their own cab um was that kind of a process of also figuring out how that was going to work uh within that environment or because they were doing it all off of a pc i'm guessing it different space than using whatever the card is. Jared, you know what the name of the card is that App Games is using. Yeah, their system on the chip solution. Rock chip. Yeah, the rock chip.
    17:23
    Well, the process of building our own unit was to, one, have fun with it and for us to really understand what our community faces when they're building a unit and how we can better support them with features and just kind of getting really intimate with the space because we see it as a huge potential. And we had a lot of we had other companies knocking on our door who wanted to, you know, be official licensed partners or just distribute content through their machines. And so we kind of just took a step back and, you know, wanted to understand really what it what it's all about for building building a machine. None of us had built one. We just support the DIY crowd. So we learned a lot and it opened our eyes to a lot of things about, you know, the mentality, I think, of the DIY group and the fan base, which is rabid and very, you know, into our game.
    18:20
    But at the end of the day, like we're a software company. I want to be working with the best in class hardware company and somehow marry us together so that it's an integrated solution. and their strengths are clearly on display and ours are on display. And, you know, I think that's coming together with ad games. It's very promising.
    18:41
    Has, obviously because of with ad games, they're having their, you know, having the three screens, having surround sound feedback as an option. Those are all going to be obviously built into whatever you ship for ad games on their e-store or within the cabinet. But then ad games has that whole OTG mode where it's, hey, you already got all your Zen games on your PC, you can just plug in and go.
    19:04
    Are you guys making it so the feature sets for playing based off your PC and plugging into that are going to work basically the same with integrating with their features?
    19:17
    Yeah, that's a good question. The games that we release on the AtGames eStore are natively supported with the hardware, and we've done specific coding and hardware support. there's going to be the features that are built into their ecosystem. And I think right now the features are somewhat limited, but I, you know, their roadmap is robust and they're really developing a really cool platform that will bring players together and lots of leaderboard options and tournaments and online events. So we will definitely support those. And, you know, as they're not released yet, we'll patch in that functionality with any game that we release and just keep the whole, you know, every game will take advantage of whatever new feature the system offers. So it's going to be different. Like if you are still supporting OTG and you are playing from your Steam game, you know, that's pinball effects on Steam. That is different from the tables that are released natively for the AtGames eStore.
    20:12
    Because I'm just wondering, like, I mean, obviously you guys are programming for animated backglasses or just even having the backglass art for AtGames, and that's something that hasn't been available for Steam Cabinet users. It's either they have to find their own back glass art, find their own, some people have been doing, creating animated back glasses. Is that something that XANA is just like, DIY community can have it, we're not touching that? Or is that something that you guys are eventually going to take control over just for your regular pin cab crew? Yeah. So to date, we've just allowed community to drive that and to create or users can just put whatever they want in their back glass. With AtGames, they're taking a more formalized approach, so there's approved assets from our licensors that are approved for that specific use in the monitors and the screens. I think that we'll take a more proactive approach and try to offer solutions to players for their own DIY cabs. there's some companies out there and one in particular that you know would like to be selling licensed officially licensed back glass images and kind of like he makes his video and I'm trying to remember what the name of it you guys probably know what it is he's in our discord I think his name is Sean who runs this company but I mean lots of opportunities to to do more there whether people want to buy it or they just think it's something that should come with the table
    21:45
    you know we'll we'll see i kind of i'm of the opinion that we should uh just supply nice assets to go on your virtual pin cab so you don't have to go like do a bunch of work jump through a bunch of hoops or you know buy it we'll see what people want to do those were just to make the license source happy as well because i'm sure they'd be you know more comfortable with like something they've approved rather than you know something that someone's thrown together from photoshop you know yeah well it's it's funny i mean licensors are still kind of trying to understand the virtual pinball space uh and how it works in a cabinet they're very familiar with the traditional business of stern and jersey jack but trying to understand uh why would somebody buy a branded unit with an ip and then they can play other games on it that are different ips well what's the playstation what's an xbox you know what i mean like yeah you get your god of ragnarok PlayStation 5 and you're going to play hundreds of other games, it's like the same thing. But yeah, we need to support it with correct assets for the game that is actually being played at the moment.
    22:48
    Looking forward to 2024, let's get an update on a couple of things that we always throw out at you. First one being mobile app. Are we anywhere, is that something that we might see in the 2024 year or is that pushed beyond? I think you'll see it in 2024. Okay.
    23:10
    And our approach is, I mean, we learned a lot from the Williams game. I'll just give you a short bit. It was kind of complicated the way we monetized. I just want to make it simple. You can buy tables or you can play with advertising. So I think that just keeping it simple will be very beneficial.
    23:31
    That's good. That seems to be the common model now with mobile. It's either ad support or you just buy it outright.
    23:37
    Next one, VR. You guys were not looking at my email inbox before we started this. No. I'm very hopeful for something very big in VR in 24. Okay. That's good news. Yes. I have a quest for you waiting for it.
    24:03
    I waiting to buy one until I see VR content Yeah Moving forward with Zen for 2024 this last year Guy what did we hit
    24:16
    I know we hit the 22 tables. Did we hit even more? It's a big over 30 now, right? Like we're definitely over 30 tables now, right?
    24:26
    I mean, I think MLM kind of pushed it over the mark there. but I mean it's like right there at the high 20s low 30s I mean we did 11 in the last two weeks right yeah we definitely over the 30 month for sure yeah you had told us uh in uh last year that you guys were looking at um obviously there was going to be a lot of zen originals which drew to the forum yep that definitely happened and then we were looking at uh probably I think you said you know five or six williams a year uh is that can be basically expect that same kind of cadence for 2024? What's that? Smaller cadence? Where are we at?
    25:09
    We will not have as many table releases in 2024 as we saw in 2023. We need to focus on expanded distribution, which we just mentioned VR and mobile. It's important that the games are available everywhere just for the health of revenue and the health of the company. that's very important but there are there's a number of releases there's you'll see there's five six Williams games there's one two three six seven eight nine you'll see 15 probably 15 tables next year so 15 tables plus new platforms yes so that's a reasonable balancing act i think like you will see pinball m uh tables as well right so you're going to see fx you'll see pinball m and then you'll see new platforms you'll see tables we're actually going to try to do something where we launch table and fx and m simultaneously and you get both like they're entitled so if you buy one you get it together oh okay that'd be great i think that was one of the questions i was gonna say like kind of like with Wrath of Elder Gods, where it was the tamed-down version for FX and then the full-tilt version for Pinball M? Yes. And the IP that we're working with for that is perfect.
    26:32
    And you'll see soon, I think we'll announce it early next year. It gave us a good opportunity to try this.
    26:41
    I don't know if you guys caught or not, there was an Xbox demo. Yes. It's live right now. I didn't know if you mentioned that or not. Yeah, no, that's fine. it's live right but like Texas Chainsaw Massacre is actually revealed there and so that is not the one that is going to M and FX that one wouldn't work I was going to ask about that actually it was something that I was hoping that I was going to get an opportunity to ask about so that particular license is interesting because Spooky is doing it as well so I had a look at Spooky's version of it they've done like a bit of a sizzle reel of some elements of the play field, and it looks rife for supporting in, like, Pimbleium as, like, a digital version of that table. Now, I remember, jeez, it would have been at least a year ago when you had Bug & Co on one of the Pinball Bites shows, and it was a bit of a surprise. I was just like, oh, why are we talking about Spooky in Zen? So is this the sort of relationship that was born of that original engagement with Spooky, the ability to collaborate on license and do a bit of that sort of heavy lifting and forge those paths with licensing and make that process easier for both studios to actually get hold of assets? because they've got Looney Tunes and Texas Chainsaw Massacre, which is, they're both big licenses.
    28:20
    So, yeah. How's that work? Is that just purely coincidental, or is there something more to that? So you would think that us talking together might have something to do, and we'd figure that out. We are very friendly, and we have had lots of ideas. But coincidentally, this is nothing that we'd ever talked about, and somehow we both, we launched a demo, and they revealed it on the same day. It is so bizarre. They're different versions of the same IP. Ours is a different version. I believe that's the original. If I'm not mistaken, you can correct me if I'm wrong. Ours follows the events of the Netflix film that was released by Legendary Pictures.
    28:59
    Both dealing with the estate, the Texas Chancellor Massacre estate is the licensor. But we had nothing to do. We had never talked about this. It's quite... How freaky. yeah it's so coincidental it's got me excited though i thought oh are we going to see look could this be the time when we actually see a digital and physical tie-in like we've been wanting for ages you know like you know talking about the whole you know physical manufacturers leaning on digital pinball to actually offer you know that digital experience and physical experience at the same time like just uh it was getting me very excited but obviously that's a that's not happening. It would be a lot of fun. We've gone down a lot of roads, had a lot of conversations and of course them being on Pinball Bites was kind of the start of, hey, maybe this can work. But still right now, there's nothing definitive or anything that I can say is firmly happening. It's a shame. Oh well. Oh well. Who knows what the future will hold.
    30:01
    Because Looney Tunes would be pretty spectacular. Yeah, that's such a good license. Yeah, I really think that those guys are doing a good job. And I love how they're It's funny, the limited edition, 888 units, is very similar to how we're thinking about collector's edition pinball with this limited run. I think they're definitely on the right track.
    30:20
    Yeah. Excellent. Anything else that we should touch upon that you want to tell our viewers about? Have we hit the max here?
    30:32
    Yeah. I don't know. It's honestly been a blur of a year since the last time I talked to you guys. some I'm it's funny I don't even know the quantity the actual number of new tables we launched this year just felt like we're launching something every couple of weeks um or preparing to do that every couple of weeks and then delaying it internally so it was like we're always in you get into launch mode but this entire year felt like we never could stop being in launch mode whether it was delayed or not that but you're still preparing to release it so it's just been insane. Ramping up to this many tables was nuts.
    31:09
    Well, as usual, we absolutely enjoy it because content gives us content. Yeah, which is useful because we like to talk about pinball and stuff. So it's good to have news. Yeah.
    31:24
    Alright, well, Mel, we thank you as always for coming on and chatting with us. We look forward to any time that we can have you on and then we look forward to speculating the hell out of what's going to happen in 2024.
    31:39
    Yeah, guys. Glad I was able to catch up, find some time. It's the end of the year, right? So good to talk to you. Thank you so much. All right, Mel. Well, that about does it for us. So until next time, folks, Jared will go ahead and talk about whatever he wants to do on the next one, which is? Stuff and things, of course. The best. All right. Until then, bye-bye, everybody. See you later.